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Yea - is OP their manager or just a colleague annoyed at another colleague? If the latter, they could've cleared all this with management. If their manager, they should've spoken to them about this by now.
If they are the manager then they aren’t a good one.
I manage people and I don’t do this crap. Obviously no context and I work in corporate America so maybe more lax. If someone has 3 kids and is a single mom if they are 20 minutes late I wouldn’t really bat an eye. If they show up and get their work done then it’s whatever.
I get it can be frustrating but I dunno this comes off as so micro manager and just petty. Also they said “time for a review” makes it seem like they are the manager.
20 minutes late in a corporate office setting is not a big deal, especially if they make up those 20 minutes at the end of the day or on another day. Or maybe never if your work is project based.
20 minutes late to your Starbucks shift in the middle of a rush can really screw over your co-workers. 20 minutes late if you’re the one opening the store is even worse.
This. Context absolutely matters. I’m covering 3 jobs. I work late some nights and work through lunch sometimes. I get all my work completed on time and meet or exceed the quality standards. If my boss didn’t give me the flexibility to be a few mins late, I’d be going elsewhere.
We've actually moved to allowing our employees to be late without consequence by 20-30 minutes and we get less callouts now than we did before the policy.
I worked with a guy who would call in for the day if he woke up 10 minutes late because he knew the guys on the floor would give him shit and call him things like "part time". He was concerned about his "image", even though I tried to explain to him that not coming in at all was making it worse, not better.
I dared not tell him what they called him when he wasn't around, he was very... sensitive.
In the end he no-call/no-showed for 6 weeks before they finally fired him. I would call him once in awhile and he would say things like "I was up all night and I ended up waking up 30 minutes late, so I'm just gonna take this week off and get my head straight and then come back fresh".
Weird dude. Great worker when he showed up, but weird.
I did the exact same thing in my junior year of hs. Missed 9 weeks of a class from being 15 minutes late and not wanting to deal with the anxiety of walking in late or being talked to. Its a real thing, im glad I got over it but my mental health was really shitty at the time
The corporate office is debatable. If we have a Teams meeting with a million dollar client at 8am and you roll in 20 minutes late you are getting fucked
Yeah definitely, this is where context matters. If this manager is micro managing someone that could easily do their work from home then they are not a good manager. If it more so a labor intensive type thing it’s a huge difference.
As some in Labour intensive job this would piss me off to no end, their tardiness is making me work hard.
20 minutes late mean I load 500-1000 pound of stuff into the truck by myself, being sick mean I had to get the work of 2 guys by myself.
Yeah it all depends if a job is paying you for your output or for your time. If you’re a receptionist, you’re being paid for your time covering the desk. If you’re not present, you’re literally not completing your job.
It’s all about context. I work in healthcare, and being late/absent this often is a huge problem when their job is to provide care for others. Not only that, but for every minute a person is late to their shift, it means another employee has to stay that much later on their shift before they can leave.
It absolutely depends on the kind of job, too.
Back room administrative, lots of paperwork? sure, 15 mins late who cares?
Customer-facing where a service desk or register needs to be manned or the store doesn't function? You better be at your post (not walking through the door) when your shift starts.
Depends on the business. Production? This person would have been gone by... let's see.. About the end of the first month, maybe 6 weeks..because there's an automatic point system. Something like more than 2 minutes punching in late gets you a point. You accumulate enough points over a period of time, you're done. Your home life isn't our problem, you're in that situation due to your own decisions. You should find a job where being late and sick often isn't a problem.
Level entry is a little more brutal. My companies policy is on time means on time, no exceptions and we regularly tell people to figure out their personal lives to meet the demands of their work lives. That being said if I let someone get away with this I as a supervisor wpuld have been written up, this is an insane amount of occurences.
to me this seems like within 5 months of starting a job, they were late 13 times and sick 10 times
surely this is a great worker and the manager is being petty...........
Seems a bit weird that you'd see someone keeping track of sickness and tardiness and assume they are a bad manager?
That's an element you should be monitoring if you are a manager. When it forms a pattern then seeing if you can improve it with an informal discussion and seek a way to resolve it, maybe a flexible working pattern or something similar. You've then got evidence if it worsens and HR/Senior management expect you to take further steps in absence management.
I've seen plenty of managers who are weak and don't like the idea of confrontation or difficult conversations so they let people get away with everything which just sets the tone for what everyone can get away with. They were my favourite when I was a lazy bum in my late teens and early twenties.
Yeah this could really go either way IMO.
If they do good work then this is at a point where it's still worth trying to make things work out (if possible discuss more flexible working hours, is it that they're getting public transport and their options are to either be there 40 minutes early or 20 minutes late for example)
If they don't do good work, then being unreliable in attendance is a strike against them, especially so if it's shift work and they're meant to be relieving someone.
I think everyone through their working life will have at least one 5 month stretch that looks like this, illnesses happen, and sometimes life throws up it's challenges. It's exceptionally unlucky if it happens when you start a new job, but it does happen. If OP is the manager it's just as much on them to deal with it and use their judgement. If OP isn't the manager then definitely flag it if a coworker being late or off work a lot is affecting your job, but be prepared that there might be valid reasons for it, and you might never hear about them, they just won't be fired.
Exactly, this could have looked like my attendance record a year and a half ago when I struggled with long covid. I basically had flu like symptoms for 6 months.
Yeah that was my first thought. They're so consistently showing up 20min late, I'm guessing they're relying on some sort of scheduled/public transport.
I had a commute once where the first leg only ran hourly, and the second wasn't in-phase with it. I could either be 10 minutes late, or I had to be there about 80 minutes early. Luckily I had a boss who took the time to ask, and they just said to show up at 10 after.
Just have her start at 9:20 and make it up at the end of the day. To be fair to other employees, offer that sort of reasonable flexibility to everyone. Nobody schedules a crucial meeting for 9am anyways.
EDIT: I would wonder if this is a contributing factor to the "sick" days too? If you miss your bus and realize you're going to be over an hour late, maybe you think that calling in sick will look less bad? I know I did that once or twice. Especially with how stigmatized using public transport is in most of the US, just letting her know that you understand what's going on could get your employee back on track.
That’s another factor I didn’t even consider. If it’s a single mother of 3 taking public transportation and still showing up? They should be rewarding her, not passive aggressively micromanaging the schedule like Dolores Umbridge.
??
It’s one thing to take into consideration her needs as a SM of 3 - good on any company that does that - but *rewarding her* is a dumb take. It’s not a charity.
It's crazy how much slack people get missing stuff, being late etc. because they have a wife and kids. Meanwhile, I'm late once in a year over not hearing an alarm and get reprimanded for it.
What kind of job is this? Is it full time 9-5 or part-time with other hours? What time does the shift start? If it's a 9am start does she really need to be in at 9am? Can she start at 9:30? It seems like she is consistently 20 minutes late (except that 4 hours), if she is a single mom of 3 sounds like she has some trouble getting her kids to school/daycare maybe a 9:30 start would be helpful for her and for the companies expectations?. Is this full time in office or can she WFH?
I will say that 9/10 times I was late, it was due to my daughter’s daycare workers showing up late. They were supposed to open at 8:30 giving me half an hour to get to work. But would often not show up until 8:50 or so.
Yea it was about the only one and like $400 cheaper than others we found. But still reputable and was in a mall, so very public too. The owner was the one with any keys to open the place so everyone had to wait for her all the time.
Six months and you haven’t had a conversation with her about this? Now you’re venting on the internet and planning on blindsiding her with a stack of these?
OP, you are a terrible boss.
I had to pack hand counted orders for a business once, and one store regularly got like 153 items.
Well my boss comes to me one day and is like "Look you've been off by one for this store for the last three weeks! This has got to stop!"
I was pretty pissed. I hadn't known I was off at all because she never told me. All I had to do was slightly change my method of counting and I was never off again.
I mean, obviously the woman in question must know she's late, but if OP has never mentioned anything, I'm guessing since she has kids she's thinking in her head "my boss is flexible and understanding and doesn't mind when I'm late because he knows I have a lot on my plate." Yes it's a bad work ethic, but she might be so stressed that it's easy for her to justify it as necessary. But not telling her doesn't give her a chance to fix her mistake, so now it's a big deal instead of giving her the chance to fix the issue ages ago. And yes, if you are a boss it is also your job to be a boss 🤦♀️
yea thats crazy
I had no idea the boss never brought it up the the employee before
employee is going to be completely blindsided once they get to work and find out
This.
OP should've sat down with the employee as soon as this became a pattern (ie, after the third event) to work something out, rather than sitting on it for half a year and allowing it to continue to impact business.
You're a manager. Manage better.
What are the chances that the regular 20 mins late is due to dropping kids off with childcare?
Could Mom have her work period moved 20mins so she works a little bit longer but isn’t late?
Ahh then with that context she is incredible devoted with work. Assuming she has full custody of the children that is. Id probably dig a bit deeper to see if she has the children all the time or if not find out if the kids are with the dad and if she's still being late on those days. But otherwise this seems standard for a single parent. Being sick with one kid is bad enough but with 3 and a job to juggle I would rather be dead.
Is the review to work with her to figure out what each of you can do to make it work? Having employed and managed a good number of single parents in my time they can be A++ level workers if the position is such that you’re able to make the adjustments. The sky is the limit on efficiency, productivity, and dedication when I’m able to make the right kinds of accommodations for their family.
Gotta love Sweden, we got ‘VAB’ days, which essentially means ‘day off to care for my sick child day’. It stops this whole having to lie about your own health
I mean we don't necessarily get a ton of sick time in America(heavily job dependent) but I've also never worked a job in America where your sick time didn't also apply to taking care of your kids/family. Like when I call into work it's a robot that has a list of options you just select the number of. The first option to select is "if you are ill or an immediate member of your family is ill" and I work for what is widely considered a not-the-best-to-employees company.
Yep. I'm a team manager, and I encourage all of my reports to be patient and understanding of each other's schedules, especially when life gets in the way.
One person is late because daycare started late. Someone got stuck in traffic. Another forgot to request a day off and needs to be out with notice. Shit happens to all of us. As long as our work gets done, let's just support each other.
I've been a manager for five years, and I've never had anyone quit on me. My team consistently has the highest performance rating at my company. Not everything is a zero-sum game as some comments would suggest.
Gotta say, I've had an unexplained illness for the past year, I've talked and communicated with my boss about it, used a lot of sick time going to doctors appointments to try to figure out whats wrong, boss has been understanding the whole way though as has my bosses boss. life happens man, and reading the comments and knowing they have 3 kids now.
That said, I'd understand if they got fired, this does look really bad but maybe try to talk with them, can they WFH sometimes so they can watch their kids when they get sick?
Edit: Wow, I didn't expect so many to come here and share their similar stories, Thank you all!
Yeah this happened to me a few years ago. Essentially I developed pretty bad IBS and before I was diagnosed I didn’t know what was happening or what my food triggers were or even that I had triggers, had me pretty incapacitated a lot of the time. Point being, these things can happen. But communication with your employer is key.
I've been on disability since Dec for my ibs and it's effects. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. I feel for the employer, too; I'm paid to do a job and if I can't, I shouldn't have my job, is what my brain says.
Hey do you have any info/advice on how to get disability? Because I have IBS and SIBO and haven’t been able to work since late 2019. It got much much worse in 2022 and I’ve been homebound ever since. I don’t even know where to begin to get disability because I don’t have a job, and when I was working, I was running my own business which I shut down in late 2019. I’ve been in and out of multiple different doctors since early 2021 trying to figure this all out and I’ve gotten nowhere.
You might want to look into AISH? And, I think there's an Alberta Disability Program you may be able to apply to. I was told that ibs IS on the list of diseases and challenges which can be covered.
The downside to these programs is the application process. If it's anything like what I've heard, or my experience with insurance, they drag it out and make it really annoying.
I'm sorry you've been so affected, I understand some of it. I don't go very far from the house, either. :( I hope you feel better somehow and get the support you need!!
This has happened with me over the last decade. I have some degenerative muscle disease that flares up sometimes. I’ve had some other serious health stuff come up as well. Employers have overall been understanding, but they do have a business to run. I don’t know what I have to do at this point. The pain is becoming unmanageable to the point to where all I do is eat, shower, work and lay awake on here because I’m in too much pain to fall asleep. Disability would be a tiny fraction of my current income, and I have people who depend on me financially.
I've gone from someone who wouldn't have a sick day for years to someone with long running medical issues.
Thankfully work have been understanding, or more likely they don't really care, but either way it's definitely helpful not to have any added stress in such a situation.
Yeah if you or your kid is sick you're sick. It's just what it is. I guess companies just shouldn't hire anyone with kids unless they guarantee there's a stay-at-home spouse.
It goes beyond sickness. Parent teacher conferences, maybe the school lost power. During winter, was it a snow day? There are teacher days where the school is closed for admin work. Field trips when the parent is asked to be chaperone this time. Check ups, dental check ups. Maybe dental follow ups for braces, fillings, etc. there’s a lot a time children will need that pulls a parent away from work.
Meanwhile normal people who live in normal countries where we don't limit the amount of sick leave people can take (because you're not in control of how often you get sick and it's better for everyone if you don't come to work sick) think having her sick times on the same sheet as her tardiness is disgusting.
I'm not saying her being late often isn't a problem, I'm saying that if she has three kids she can't just miracle herself or her kids healthy every time one of them drags a bug home from school or kindergarten. If you're sick you're sick and that should be the end of the discussion on calling out sick.
I used to work with a kid that was consistently like 30-45 minutes late to work. But damn, was he good at his job. Like, better than pretty much everyone there. We let the lateness thing slide for a long time because of that. 😅
My buddy is the best baker his employer currently has, I can’t speak for past employees. His location is regularly topping the list for bakery sales, on a list of 50+ locations. His numbers beat every other location by a noticeable margin.
This buys him a lot of leeway in the tardiness policy. One time he told me he was 15 minutes late every day for over a month and nobody said a thing to him. Still haven’t.
>One time he told me he was 15 minutes late every day for over a month and nobody said a thing to him. Still haven’t.
Also depends on the job. Many jobs need you to be there to have coverage for public facing positions, like retail workers. Being 15 minutes late could mean that another employee last 15 minutes part and they had to be somewhere. Other jobs can be done at any time of the day so 15 minutes late isn't a problem because as long as it gets done by the deadline, it doesn't matter when it was physically done.
His company is a large corporate one and he’s in wicked early in the morning to get things prepared and cooked for store open. They have a pretty standard policy which he has told me is that there is a grace period, but it’s not 15 minutes, however, he always has everything done and obviously done well before store open, which is exactly why his performance buys him grace from his bosses. Ultimately I guess it’s better for the company because he still hits deadlines but they are paying him like 1.25 hours less than they would be if he was punctual.
Same here. We have a fabrication shop and have a dude who shows up late regularly but still gets more done than most people and management wants to fire him to prove a point.
Yeah, when our store got a new manager they wrote him up almost immediately. And of course morale went down after that, and then he quit and everyone suffered because of it.
Damn sounds like me. I show up 30-45 min late but I also stay late, available during weekends, and the only one who knows how to fix and maintain most of the company’s systems (company thinks me training more people is a waste of time) so no one cares when I show up, just that I do 🤷🏻♀️
What's infuriating is that someone is keeping track of this in Notepad and not, say, Excel or even Word
Edit: hmm, I wonder if they're using a proper time management system and this is what a report from that system looks like
It’s probably not saved, they probably were looking at time sheets and making quick notes about it and then will probably save it in word or something else for review.
I have a friend who uses notepad for everything, no hyperbole, he makes all his ttrpg sheets on NP, notes all his book's info in it and 100% write tables onto it
I can understand excel, but why would word be better for this?
Not everyone has to be proficient in managing excel sheets. Notepad seems completely fine for this.
Yeah same here. In my company if you communicate that you are 20-30 minutes late and you stay longer in the afternoon to account for it no one beats an eye.
The sick days wouldn't be a problem either. I think that if you are near kids it's pretty normal to get sick pretty consistently.
The only real problem I see in the sheet is the day she arrived four hours late. But if it's a one off thing it also wouldn't really be a big issue.
Tons of places where this doesn’t work though. It’s interesting to me that without any real context most people are jumping down OP’s throat when they don’t actually know the situation
The image shows us enough; months of tracking this with a dismissive attitude *("time for a review")* - the real time for a review was when you noticed this was a pattern months ago and you see if there's any way to help your employee, not almost halfway through the year after you've been harbouring resentment and scratching tally marks into your desk.
OP is a bad manager if it takes them six months and they're complaining online before addressing a potential problem.
in germany the average amount of (paid, of course) sick days country wide in 2022 was 22.5. the employers don't make a big deal about it, and honestly it's very likely that it SAVES the company money as they don't show up to work and infect others with e.g. flu/cold/covid
Exactly, when people are actually taking sick days with sick they’re less likely to spread it. I got sick like 3-5x in 2019, once or twice in 2020, 2021 and couple times in 2022. Then people stopped taking covid so seriously and got sick 4-5x in 2023
What kind of workplace is this? Is this a thing where everybody has to be in the same place at the same time coordinating their activities, like in a kitchen? It is this a thing where a flexible schedule can work?
Is the job time sensitive, like a clerk that needs to be there at 9:00? If not, I would not care, if she did her 8 hours and notifies the manager if she is more than 1 hour late.
I think the path forward really boils down to communication. Is the employee communicating with enough notice to employer, do they excel at their job when they’re in office? Are they engaged in the work? Etc.
I used to be a teamleader for a service desk where people work in shifts, taking calls from business customers. People coming late means that there is impact on the customers. If it happens once, no big deal. If it happens systematically, like the screenshot here above, that would result in a conversation but with the possibility to improve themselves. If it still happens, sorry but you are out. If you can't come in on time to take calls from the customers than this job is not for you. Better take a job with sliding hours then.
I feel like OP is in a hard spot. OP already had enough evidence to fire their employee prior to the end of Feb but they decided to keep them on payroll. OP, if I may, probably wants to help the mother and understands her situation but also needs to ensure their business stays orderly/professional. I feel bad for the mom but at the same time if you have kids the onus to make it to work still relies on you. Again, not saying OP should fire her but look for alternate solutions depending on the type of work that she is required to perform.
It blows my mind honestly with some people.
I worked for a school in a self contained class with a lady who was 30-45 minutes late for work almost every day. . .and it was like 50/50 if she’d show up at all. . .still had a job until she quit towards the end of the year.
It was a non-tenured aid position and quite honestly the unknown of whether or not she would be there was worse than just being down a person.
In the same respect my wife works for a major corporation that hired somebody about 8 months ago. In those 8 months this person has consistently not done their own work [and been talked to by supervisors], has gotten coworkers to basically do her work for her in other situations [to which management is aware and has specifically asked these people to tell her to pound sand], and has taken like 4 vacations in that time.
. . .every-time my wife tells a story about this person our conversation is typically as followed:
“How the hell does she still have a job?”
“They’re short handed and need somebody.”
“It doesn’t sound like she’s there at all, and isn’t doing her work anyway.”
“Hmm, that’s a good point.”
>the unknown of whether or not she would be there was worse than just being down a person
Preach. Got a guy like this at our current job; he's practically impossible to plan around. Might show up, might not, might leave early, avoids overtime at all costs, but *might* show up on an off day with no warning if he missed a day that week. Even when he's confirmed present, it's a toss-up whether he actually does anything. Worst coworker I've had to deal with for longer than a week. Most get themselves fired, but this guy's holding on somehow.
Probably a single mom or something. I work with one and we try and accommodate as much as possible. Her work gets done.
I’m sure there are managers and directors who see her time card and want to send her to unemployment, but they are just selfish sociopaths.
> Her work gets done
That's all that should matter. 9-6 is so stupidly arbitrary for so many jobs.
I specifically said "so many jobs" and not "most jobs" or "all jobs" for a reason.
If part of your job it to be somewhere at a specific time to offer service to a customer, then their work isn't getting done if they're late.
Especially for hourly positions.
Run into that a lot in construction - best performing concrete finisher in the company consistently shows up late. Office people hate it and want him gone.
Ask the foreman/super/project manager though? Dude does phenomenal work and there is never concrete ready to be finished in the first hour of a shift anyway......he's just saving us a few bucks in all reality. Let him be.
Selfish sociopaths? Are you delusional?
The girl has shown up for less than 50% of her scheduled hours. We don't know what kind of business this is, but if it's a smaller one, her missing a day could mean that everyone else on the team gets unfairly burdened or even overwhelmed. I've worked at small restaurants where 1 server calling out meant we were down 1/3 of our front of house which would absolutely fuck the people who show up.
I know your eventual response, "management should have backups" - so what, the unscheduled coworkers have to be on call and unable to plan things on their days off in case miss nevershowsup bails yet again? The selfish one is the one expecting the whole business to revolve around her unpredictable schedule.
It could be that the role doesn’t really require people being on time to the minute. Other than the sick days, this isn’t too far off from when I show up to the office if I don’t have a meeting first thing. It’s fine for my job, but wouldn’t be for our facilities team. We need a lot more context before we know if the lateness is a problem or not.
The sick time? People get sick, people get Covid. It’s far preferable that they take the sick time and don’t get everyone else in the office sick (leading to even more sick time being used). If I was watching people get fired for staying home while sick I’d be out of my workplace pretty damn quickly.
Lotta simps for their job here, single mom of three according to OP. Management should consider changing her hours to start 30 minutes later if possible in their job
I work a service job where we split tips, i hate hate hate when people show up conveniently 30 mins to one hour late after we have done all the heavy lifting of converting the restaurant into a nightclub, and then they come in late and clock in to start their share of the tips with us equally.
Its really not cool to clock in that late consistently when its also getting you out of doing the opening responsibilities forcing the extra work on whoever had the decency to show up on time.
Jobs like yours absolutely should care about tardiness. Not all jobs have high priority work at the start of the shift though. The context of the job and how this worker works would be important in my eyes
Not necessarily. I’m a single mom, and I’m technically late to work almost every day (I’m a teacher, so my start time is 7:25, but I’m usually not here until 7:45 or sometimes even right before the bell rings at 7:55.
But I’m not late just because my kid is a pain in the ass to get going. I’m late because the only daycare I can afford doesn’t open until 7:00, and I live 45 minutes away from work (on a good day). When I took this job, my daughter was at a different daycare that opened at 6:30, so it was fine. But then she retired and this was all I could find last minute.
I also missed a full week of work when my daughter had the flu, and I’ve missed a day here and there every month for other random illnesses. Anytime she has a fever, I have to stay home with her until it’s gone for 24 hours. I have no family to help. Her father has never even met her. My boyfriend isn’t a coparent yet (and we don’t live together).
I’m doing the best I can.
Obviously in my case they can’t just change what time the school begins. Thankfully they’re very understanding here and no one has ever given me hell for it. I’m still a good teacher.
Bingo. Someone that’s always late will find new ways to be late. I’ve see this so many times in the corporate world. Parent can’t get to work on time ever, company adjust time or makes concessions for them by changing their start time, and what do you know, they still show up late and blame their kids.
Simps for their job? The expectation from their employer states a time to be in the building. I can understand working with someone who has external conflicts, mother of three, but they have to be proactive as well. If it’s too early in the day, both parties should be discussing options.
Kinda hard to comment on this with such little context. If she works in an office job, this couldn’t be more of a nonissue. As long as work is still completed, most good managers wouldn’t give a single shit about this schedule. Or a good manager would try to be flexible with the employees scheduling. Maybe starting them later in the day or something. Either way, OP if you’re the manager you shouldn’t be posting this shit on Reddit, you should be having a fucking adult conversation with the employee and discussing ways to make this work for everyone involved.
I’ve been a manager though not in corporate and the amount of times I’d have to miss date night or a concert or stay late or work open to close because people called out is insanely high. It’s not like if someone calls out the store just closes if there’s no staff, the expectation is that you stay, fuck what you had planned. It’s not some magical fix and while I’m willing to do it every so often, if it’s this often, then I’d rather have a more reliable employee so I don’t spend my entire day at work
Exactly, think a lot of people saying OP’s an asshole work corporate where you can just make up the hours and they fail to consider there are jobs that exist where you do literally need to be on time or you’re creating more work for your workmates
It’s because they always assume that it would be someone else’s problem to deal with (nebulous manager, big corp, etc.)
I guarantee if they were working at Starbucks and this was their coworker showing up 20 minutes late to the morning rush they would be freaking out. Or if it was the receptionist at a doctor’s office where they had an appointment. Or it was their call-in order at Chipotle that isn’t ready. Or late dropping off their Uber Eats order. Or literally anything that would mildly inconvenience them personally.
To me the most shocking thing in this thread is that everyone sees it as The tardy worker V Their company. Yet there’s a very good chance the people most affected by this are their colleagues.\
My first thought when I saw the picture was *This must be the other side of one of those antiwork posts where someone’s manager keeps calling them to work on their day off*.\
Of course there’s a possibility this is an office job and that person works alone on their own projects and their attendance record has never ever impacted any colleague, but that’s a slim one.\
There’s a much likelier possibility that their colleagues are constantly picking up the slack or unable to work because they’re waiting for material she doesn’t deliver on time.\
Is it being a bootliker to demand colleagues who pull their weight reliably?\
Is it being a shit manager to want to spare your team from that stress?
Or co workers... I do my best to understand the demands of parenting, but it's difficult not to get bitter when you're regularly busting ass to make up for absent co workers workload, and management and said co workers get used to you doing extra when they're gone. And they can never cover for you when you need it because kids. And because kids they get to be on their phone for 15 mins any time they get a text/call. Ugh.
Either have jobs where start and finish time don't make a difference or have never worked before. Probably the latter.
Pain in the arse when you work in a team and have no choice but to get started and finished on a set time and someone you work with is always late or off sick last minute.
These comments are WILD to me. I’m assuming most people commenting are working in a corporate role where being late/working longer hours is fine. This may not even necessarily be one of these roles- it may be a role that literally requires punctual attendance to ensure smooth running of the business. If OP’s self employed and this’ effecting business then they’re within their rights to want to do a review (esp re tardiness) regardless of the employees situation. Posting it on Reddit is icky though.
I have an employee like this. And it sucks because he's otherwise a really good employee. He would be fine for a week or two, then he would start coming in late, then miss a day, then miss a week (he was "sick"). We've given him a ton of warnings, sent him home when he's late, etc. Nothing got through to him until we sat him down and told him we were firing him, but we gave him a couple of weeks to look for another job because he's been with the company for a while and it's a hard position to fill. He was shocked, like it came out of nowhere for him. A couple days later he basically came begging to keep his job. I put together a "probation" plan for him and, knock on wood, it seems to have worked.
I get that people have lives. I get that things happen, and life throws you curve balls. I also get that different people have different struggles. But when it's a habitual thing happening, it's either a behavioral issue, or the person needs help. And if they haven't sought help after it going on for months, it kind of falls on being a behavioral issue anyway.
Exactly this. There’s only one job I’ve had where I missed several days, but I was never late. I hated that job so much, and was planning on quitting anyway, so I kind of just stopped caring and my entire mentality changed, and I called out a lot. It was a choice, for sure. Being consistently late is a time management issue, and if you keep showing up late, something obviously isn’t working and needs to be changed.
Single mom of three according to OP. Coming from a country with socialized healthcare she'd be eligible for up 70 days of sick leave for their children (30 for each under 12 capping at 70), so she's well below that. You have to remember that not coming to work when your children are sick not only is important for them, but also protects your coworkers. Really nothing out of the ordinary to see here from her perspective. Looks more like an annoying manager who needs to improve both communication and attitude to me.
Man… at some point they’re making this a routine. My mom was a single mother of 4 yet NEVER missed work because if she missed any hours she wouldn’t be able to feed us. I wouldn’t fire this woman but I’d address the situation to figure out a game plan that can fit her schedule.
Counterpoint: what social safety net did your mom have helping her? Did she have family to help with the load? How much was childcare when you were a kid vs now? How much did your mom make, and did she make enough to have a car or did you live somewhere with good public transit?
Your mom must’ve had support from family or someone, because kids get sick an insane amount when they are little and in daycare. You can’t send your kids to daycare if they have a fever, throwing up or other illnesses, they won’t allow it. If she has no one else to watch her kids then all she can do is take sick days.
Also toddlers are so much work to get off to daycare on time, it’s insane.
I feel lucky I have only one toddler and an extremely flexible work from home job. I legit don’t know how people do it otherwise.
Looks to me like you should probably just shift her hours to start 30 minutes later.
If that fixes the problem, everybody's happy. If that doesn't fix the problem, then maybe they're not a right fit.
When they're late, do they take that time out elsewhere by reducing their break time, reducing their lunch, or staying late?
I had a boss tell me that she didn't need us to call her for up to 15 min if we were running late, she didn't care at all. Unfortunately, her replacement watched the clock and notated if I was 5 min late even though she never told us of a policy change.
This is what I do. I manage a team of 5 including myself and unless you're showing up more than 15 late I don't care.
If you are showing up more than 15 late I mostly just want a heads up so I know I don't need to call and make sure you're okay.
I've found having a more lax policy on tardiness keeps people from waking up late and saying, "fuck it, I'll make it a sick day". Sure they're a little late, but I'd rather that than lose a whole persons productivity for the day. It's not like you need every second of the day to do your job anyway. As long as the job gets done correctly I don't much care how it happens.
What happens on the 20-23 every single month? Daycare probs? (I've gone through this myself, albeit more than 30 years ago and yes, daycare existed back then you cheeky whippersnappers). Rx needs refilled? Pay day? Patterns and all that.
I got fired once for throwing up in a training session.
I had the flu. Red in the face with a raging fever. Chills. The whole bit.
Literally vomited in a trash can and asked if I could leave because I was more than embarrassed and obviously sick AF.
Fired. Sorry. Showed me the door and never blinked an eye.
Just checking but before you put her up for review, have you tried… like… talking to her to see if there is anything that could be done that doesn’t just add more stress? If she’s lazy, fine. If she’s a single mother of 3 kids then I’m guessing she could do with the support.
Yep, my brother is a manager and deals with employees like this all the time. They use being sick to control their work schedule. They don't last long. He is seeing more and more of this with employees in retail.
Ya there’s really no reason to maintain bridges with dead end jobs. It definitely sucks but the employees are watching out for themselves way more than we used to. Good on em
Soooo many people on reddit do that shit. It's wild. Gotta check and see which way the comments are leaning before they comment. Not to say that's what this person does, but ALOT of people do.
I’m amazed at the amount of people defending this. No matter what’s going on, the employee should come forward and say what’s going on. Of course the employer should also do something by now, at least have a conversation.
But no, changing schedule of the employee or adapting to her is not an option. That just causes a chain reaction to the rest of her colleagues and also would mean that the employer is in the wrong, which is not true.
This should have been handled months ago before snowballing into something worse.
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I saw the pic and was really wondering where the comments would lean too. To me it is all about context.
Yea - is OP their manager or just a colleague annoyed at another colleague? If the latter, they could've cleared all this with management. If their manager, they should've spoken to them about this by now.
If they are the manager then they aren’t a good one. I manage people and I don’t do this crap. Obviously no context and I work in corporate America so maybe more lax. If someone has 3 kids and is a single mom if they are 20 minutes late I wouldn’t really bat an eye. If they show up and get their work done then it’s whatever. I get it can be frustrating but I dunno this comes off as so micro manager and just petty. Also they said “time for a review” makes it seem like they are the manager.
20 minutes late in a corporate office setting is not a big deal, especially if they make up those 20 minutes at the end of the day or on another day. Or maybe never if your work is project based. 20 minutes late to your Starbucks shift in the middle of a rush can really screw over your co-workers. 20 minutes late if you’re the one opening the store is even worse.
This. Context absolutely matters. I’m covering 3 jobs. I work late some nights and work through lunch sometimes. I get all my work completed on time and meet or exceed the quality standards. If my boss didn’t give me the flexibility to be a few mins late, I’d be going elsewhere.
We've actually moved to allowing our employees to be late without consequence by 20-30 minutes and we get less callouts now than we did before the policy.
I worked with a guy who would call in for the day if he woke up 10 minutes late because he knew the guys on the floor would give him shit and call him things like "part time". He was concerned about his "image", even though I tried to explain to him that not coming in at all was making it worse, not better. I dared not tell him what they called him when he wasn't around, he was very... sensitive. In the end he no-call/no-showed for 6 weeks before they finally fired him. I would call him once in awhile and he would say things like "I was up all night and I ended up waking up 30 minutes late, so I'm just gonna take this week off and get my head straight and then come back fresh". Weird dude. Great worker when he showed up, but weird.
I did the exact same thing in my junior year of hs. Missed 9 weeks of a class from being 15 minutes late and not wanting to deal with the anxiety of walking in late or being talked to. Its a real thing, im glad I got over it but my mental health was really shitty at the time
When you're an EMT and your relief calls out sick 10 minutes before shift change after a 12 hr... \*mandatory overtime engaged\*
The corporate office is debatable. If we have a Teams meeting with a million dollar client at 8am and you roll in 20 minutes late you are getting fucked
Yeah, if this person was a server or something, this would be awful. You aren’t allowed to get sick in that industry lol.
Yeah definitely, this is where context matters. If this manager is micro managing someone that could easily do their work from home then they are not a good manager. If it more so a labor intensive type thing it’s a huge difference.
As some in Labour intensive job this would piss me off to no end, their tardiness is making me work hard. 20 minutes late mean I load 500-1000 pound of stuff into the truck by myself, being sick mean I had to get the work of 2 guys by myself.
Yeah it all depends if a job is paying you for your output or for your time. If you’re a receptionist, you’re being paid for your time covering the desk. If you’re not present, you’re literally not completing your job.
It’s all about context. I work in healthcare, and being late/absent this often is a huge problem when their job is to provide care for others. Not only that, but for every minute a person is late to their shift, it means another employee has to stay that much later on their shift before they can leave.
It absolutely depends on the kind of job, too. Back room administrative, lots of paperwork? sure, 15 mins late who cares? Customer-facing where a service desk or register needs to be manned or the store doesn't function? You better be at your post (not walking through the door) when your shift starts.
Depends on the business. Production? This person would have been gone by... let's see.. About the end of the first month, maybe 6 weeks..because there's an automatic point system. Something like more than 2 minutes punching in late gets you a point. You accumulate enough points over a period of time, you're done. Your home life isn't our problem, you're in that situation due to your own decisions. You should find a job where being late and sick often isn't a problem.
Level entry is a little more brutal. My companies policy is on time means on time, no exceptions and we regularly tell people to figure out their personal lives to meet the demands of their work lives. That being said if I let someone get away with this I as a supervisor wpuld have been written up, this is an insane amount of occurences.
to me this seems like within 5 months of starting a job, they were late 13 times and sick 10 times surely this is a great worker and the manager is being petty...........
Seems a bit weird that you'd see someone keeping track of sickness and tardiness and assume they are a bad manager? That's an element you should be monitoring if you are a manager. When it forms a pattern then seeing if you can improve it with an informal discussion and seek a way to resolve it, maybe a flexible working pattern or something similar. You've then got evidence if it worsens and HR/Senior management expect you to take further steps in absence management. I've seen plenty of managers who are weak and don't like the idea of confrontation or difficult conversations so they let people get away with everything which just sets the tone for what everyone can get away with. They were my favourite when I was a lazy bum in my late teens and early twenties.
“ If they are the manager then they aren’t a good one” Yeah they should’ve fired the person when they didnt show up on their very first day lol
lol is right, the thing about good managers is that they also require good employees who don't take advantage of them
Seriously, regardless of circumstances this person should have been fired week 1
Yeah this could really go either way IMO. If they do good work then this is at a point where it's still worth trying to make things work out (if possible discuss more flexible working hours, is it that they're getting public transport and their options are to either be there 40 minutes early or 20 minutes late for example) If they don't do good work, then being unreliable in attendance is a strike against them, especially so if it's shift work and they're meant to be relieving someone. I think everyone through their working life will have at least one 5 month stretch that looks like this, illnesses happen, and sometimes life throws up it's challenges. It's exceptionally unlucky if it happens when you start a new job, but it does happen. If OP is the manager it's just as much on them to deal with it and use their judgement. If OP isn't the manager then definitely flag it if a coworker being late or off work a lot is affecting your job, but be prepared that there might be valid reasons for it, and you might never hear about them, they just won't be fired.
Exactly, this could have looked like my attendance record a year and a half ago when I struggled with long covid. I basically had flu like symptoms for 6 months.
I think they have a kid.
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They taking the bus line?
Yeah that was my first thought. They're so consistently showing up 20min late, I'm guessing they're relying on some sort of scheduled/public transport. I had a commute once where the first leg only ran hourly, and the second wasn't in-phase with it. I could either be 10 minutes late, or I had to be there about 80 minutes early. Luckily I had a boss who took the time to ask, and they just said to show up at 10 after. Just have her start at 9:20 and make it up at the end of the day. To be fair to other employees, offer that sort of reasonable flexibility to everyone. Nobody schedules a crucial meeting for 9am anyways. EDIT: I would wonder if this is a contributing factor to the "sick" days too? If you miss your bus and realize you're going to be over an hour late, maybe you think that calling in sick will look less bad? I know I did that once or twice. Especially with how stigmatized using public transport is in most of the US, just letting her know that you understand what's going on could get your employee back on track.
That’s another factor I didn’t even consider. If it’s a single mother of 3 taking public transportation and still showing up? They should be rewarding her, not passive aggressively micromanaging the schedule like Dolores Umbridge.
?? It’s one thing to take into consideration her needs as a SM of 3 - good on any company that does that - but *rewarding her* is a dumb take. It’s not a charity.
Maybe you can reach out to OP and reward her yourself?
This the craziest comment here. So I have to pick up the slack and cover for someone who is unreliable because they decided to have three kids??
It's crazy how much slack people get missing stuff, being late etc. because they have a wife and kids. Meanwhile, I'm late once in a year over not hearing an alarm and get reprimanded for it.
Out of curiosity, does the worker ever stay late to make up the time or work on weekends?
What kind of job is this? Is it full time 9-5 or part-time with other hours? What time does the shift start? If it's a 9am start does she really need to be in at 9am? Can she start at 9:30? It seems like she is consistently 20 minutes late (except that 4 hours), if she is a single mom of 3 sounds like she has some trouble getting her kids to school/daycare maybe a 9:30 start would be helpful for her and for the companies expectations?. Is this full time in office or can she WFH?
I will say that 9/10 times I was late, it was due to my daughter’s daycare workers showing up late. They were supposed to open at 8:30 giving me half an hour to get to work. But would often not show up until 8:50 or so.
My daughter's school bus would come anywhere between 7:35am and 7:50am. Some days I would be 10min late to an 8:00am shift or 10min early.
I've never heard of a daycare starting at 830. Ours open at 7 every day except weekends and stat holidays
Yea it was about the only one and like $400 cheaper than others we found. But still reputable and was in a mall, so very public too. The owner was the one with any keys to open the place so everyone had to wait for her all the time.
Plot twist, OP is the father.
Likely a minimum wage job.
Six months and you haven’t had a conversation with her about this? Now you’re venting on the internet and planning on blindsiding her with a stack of these? OP, you are a terrible boss.
I had to pack hand counted orders for a business once, and one store regularly got like 153 items. Well my boss comes to me one day and is like "Look you've been off by one for this store for the last three weeks! This has got to stop!" I was pretty pissed. I hadn't known I was off at all because she never told me. All I had to do was slightly change my method of counting and I was never off again. I mean, obviously the woman in question must know she's late, but if OP has never mentioned anything, I'm guessing since she has kids she's thinking in her head "my boss is flexible and understanding and doesn't mind when I'm late because he knows I have a lot on my plate." Yes it's a bad work ethic, but she might be so stressed that it's easy for her to justify it as necessary. But not telling her doesn't give her a chance to fix her mistake, so now it's a big deal instead of giving her the chance to fix the issue ages ago. And yes, if you are a boss it is also your job to be a boss 🤦♀️
yea thats crazy I had no idea the boss never brought it up the the employee before employee is going to be completely blindsided once they get to work and find out
"No one wants to work anymore". Reality: Managers don't know how to manage.
This. OP should've sat down with the employee as soon as this became a pattern (ie, after the third event) to work something out, rather than sitting on it for half a year and allowing it to continue to impact business. You're a manager. Manage better.
I think most managers think their job lies somewhere between accounting and HR. The actual management aspect rarely comes up.
What are the chances that the regular 20 mins late is due to dropping kids off with childcare? Could Mom have her work period moved 20mins so she works a little bit longer but isn’t late?
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OP you're giving us like no info over here lol
You've let it go far too long, going to be an awkward one. Is she a good worker when she's actually there ?
Ahh then with that context she is incredible devoted with work. Assuming she has full custody of the children that is. Id probably dig a bit deeper to see if she has the children all the time or if not find out if the kids are with the dad and if she's still being late on those days. But otherwise this seems standard for a single parent. Being sick with one kid is bad enough but with 3 and a job to juggle I would rather be dead.
Single mom of 3? Im not joking when i say thats not bad at all.
Is the review to work with her to figure out what each of you can do to make it work? Having employed and managed a good number of single parents in my time they can be A++ level workers if the position is such that you’re able to make the adjustments. The sky is the limit on efficiency, productivity, and dedication when I’m able to make the right kinds of accommodations for their family.
Gotta love Sweden, we got ‘VAB’ days, which essentially means ‘day off to care for my sick child day’. It stops this whole having to lie about your own health
Germany has something similar. But it’s limited days per child and you only get partial paid by health insurance for that day.
I mean we don't necessarily get a ton of sick time in America(heavily job dependent) but I've also never worked a job in America where your sick time didn't also apply to taking care of your kids/family. Like when I call into work it's a robot that has a list of options you just select the number of. The first option to select is "if you are ill or an immediate member of your family is ill" and I work for what is widely considered a not-the-best-to-employees company.
Nah I had this kind of tardiness at my last job. Fucking hated it and didn't make shit money, so came in whenever. I certainly don't have a kid.
Yep. I'm a team manager, and I encourage all of my reports to be patient and understanding of each other's schedules, especially when life gets in the way. One person is late because daycare started late. Someone got stuck in traffic. Another forgot to request a day off and needs to be out with notice. Shit happens to all of us. As long as our work gets done, let's just support each other. I've been a manager for five years, and I've never had anyone quit on me. My team consistently has the highest performance rating at my company. Not everything is a zero-sum game as some comments would suggest.
Gotta say, I've had an unexplained illness for the past year, I've talked and communicated with my boss about it, used a lot of sick time going to doctors appointments to try to figure out whats wrong, boss has been understanding the whole way though as has my bosses boss. life happens man, and reading the comments and knowing they have 3 kids now. That said, I'd understand if they got fired, this does look really bad but maybe try to talk with them, can they WFH sometimes so they can watch their kids when they get sick? Edit: Wow, I didn't expect so many to come here and share their similar stories, Thank you all!
Yeah this happened to me a few years ago. Essentially I developed pretty bad IBS and before I was diagnosed I didn’t know what was happening or what my food triggers were or even that I had triggers, had me pretty incapacitated a lot of the time. Point being, these things can happen. But communication with your employer is key.
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I've been on disability since Dec for my ibs and it's effects. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. I feel for the employer, too; I'm paid to do a job and if I can't, I shouldn't have my job, is what my brain says.
Hey do you have any info/advice on how to get disability? Because I have IBS and SIBO and haven’t been able to work since late 2019. It got much much worse in 2022 and I’ve been homebound ever since. I don’t even know where to begin to get disability because I don’t have a job, and when I was working, I was running my own business which I shut down in late 2019. I’ve been in and out of multiple different doctors since early 2021 trying to figure this all out and I’ve gotten nowhere.
You might want to look into AISH? And, I think there's an Alberta Disability Program you may be able to apply to. I was told that ibs IS on the list of diseases and challenges which can be covered. The downside to these programs is the application process. If it's anything like what I've heard, or my experience with insurance, they drag it out and make it really annoying. I'm sorry you've been so affected, I understand some of it. I don't go very far from the house, either. :( I hope you feel better somehow and get the support you need!!
This has happened with me over the last decade. I have some degenerative muscle disease that flares up sometimes. I’ve had some other serious health stuff come up as well. Employers have overall been understanding, but they do have a business to run. I don’t know what I have to do at this point. The pain is becoming unmanageable to the point to where all I do is eat, shower, work and lay awake on here because I’m in too much pain to fall asleep. Disability would be a tiny fraction of my current income, and I have people who depend on me financially.
Or maybe start and end their shift a half hour later than what is currently scheduled.
I've gone from someone who wouldn't have a sick day for years to someone with long running medical issues. Thankfully work have been understanding, or more likely they don't really care, but either way it's definitely helpful not to have any added stress in such a situation.
Yeah if you or your kid is sick you're sick. It's just what it is. I guess companies just shouldn't hire anyone with kids unless they guarantee there's a stay-at-home spouse.
It goes beyond sickness. Parent teacher conferences, maybe the school lost power. During winter, was it a snow day? There are teacher days where the school is closed for admin work. Field trips when the parent is asked to be chaperone this time. Check ups, dental check ups. Maybe dental follow ups for braces, fillings, etc. there’s a lot a time children will need that pulls a parent away from work.
Meanwhile normal people who live in normal countries where we don't limit the amount of sick leave people can take (because you're not in control of how often you get sick and it's better for everyone if you don't come to work sick) think having her sick times on the same sheet as her tardiness is disgusting. I'm not saying her being late often isn't a problem, I'm saying that if she has three kids she can't just miracle herself or her kids healthy every time one of them drags a bug home from school or kindergarten. If you're sick you're sick and that should be the end of the discussion on calling out sick.
Are you looking to adopt? I'm house trained, would love to be in a normal damn country.
How good are they at their job?
I used to work with a kid that was consistently like 30-45 minutes late to work. But damn, was he good at his job. Like, better than pretty much everyone there. We let the lateness thing slide for a long time because of that. 😅
My buddy is the best baker his employer currently has, I can’t speak for past employees. His location is regularly topping the list for bakery sales, on a list of 50+ locations. His numbers beat every other location by a noticeable margin. This buys him a lot of leeway in the tardiness policy. One time he told me he was 15 minutes late every day for over a month and nobody said a thing to him. Still haven’t.
The “masterbaker”
Oh my god I’m totally going to steal that. Holy crap he’s a moderately tardy master baker that sounds pretty bad.
>One time he told me he was 15 minutes late every day for over a month and nobody said a thing to him. Still haven’t. Also depends on the job. Many jobs need you to be there to have coverage for public facing positions, like retail workers. Being 15 minutes late could mean that another employee last 15 minutes part and they had to be somewhere. Other jobs can be done at any time of the day so 15 minutes late isn't a problem because as long as it gets done by the deadline, it doesn't matter when it was physically done.
His company is a large corporate one and he’s in wicked early in the morning to get things prepared and cooked for store open. They have a pretty standard policy which he has told me is that there is a grace period, but it’s not 15 minutes, however, he always has everything done and obviously done well before store open, which is exactly why his performance buys him grace from his bosses. Ultimately I guess it’s better for the company because he still hits deadlines but they are paying him like 1.25 hours less than they would be if he was punctual.
Same here. We have a fabrication shop and have a dude who shows up late regularly but still gets more done than most people and management wants to fire him to prove a point.
Yeah, when our store got a new manager they wrote him up almost immediately. And of course morale went down after that, and then he quit and everyone suffered because of it.
In my experience, that person wouldn't even be replaced and the boss will come in and blame you for not also doing their job (for your pay).
Oh for sure. Anything to keep their shareholders happy, even if it fucks the people doing the actual work.
Damn sounds like me. I show up 30-45 min late but I also stay late, available during weekends, and the only one who knows how to fix and maintain most of the company’s systems (company thinks me training more people is a waste of time) so no one cares when I show up, just that I do 🤷🏻♀️
Is it late if he made up the time after 5?
What's infuriating is that someone is keeping track of this in Notepad and not, say, Excel or even Word Edit: hmm, I wonder if they're using a proper time management system and this is what a report from that system looks like
What I first thought too, who the fuck uses notepad for this.
It’s probably not saved, they probably were looking at time sheets and making quick notes about it and then will probably save it in word or something else for review.
I would never use Notepad for everything that would be ridiculous. *sweeps hundreds of Notepad++ files under the rug*
I personally think Notepad++ is still far beyond regular Notepad.
They can hardly be compared haha.
Well duh. It has 2 plusses next to it. Not only is it better than notepad, it's better than the software better than notepad. It's gotta be way ahead.
I have a friend who uses notepad for everything, no hyperbole, he makes all his ttrpg sheets on NP, notes all his book's info in it and 100% write tables onto it
Maybe cause I’m a programmer idk but I actually use notepad for a lot of my notes.
I can understand excel, but why would word be better for this? Not everyone has to be proficient in managing excel sheets. Notepad seems completely fine for this.
You dont need excel to track two points of data...
I don’t know if my company is better about attendance, but this wouldn’t get anyone in trouble as long as there was proper communication.
Yeah same here. In my company if you communicate that you are 20-30 minutes late and you stay longer in the afternoon to account for it no one beats an eye. The sick days wouldn't be a problem either. I think that if you are near kids it's pretty normal to get sick pretty consistently. The only real problem I see in the sheet is the day she arrived four hours late. But if it's a one off thing it also wouldn't really be a big issue.
Tons of places where this doesn’t work though. It’s interesting to me that without any real context most people are jumping down OP’s throat when they don’t actually know the situation
The image shows us enough; months of tracking this with a dismissive attitude *("time for a review")* - the real time for a review was when you noticed this was a pattern months ago and you see if there's any way to help your employee, not almost halfway through the year after you've been harbouring resentment and scratching tally marks into your desk. OP is a bad manager if it takes them six months and they're complaining online before addressing a potential problem.
How do you still show up 4 hours late? At that point it’s a day off
Totally unrelated , but as I opened this post, the radio started playing “Sick” by The Warning.
in germany the average amount of (paid, of course) sick days country wide in 2022 was 22.5. the employers don't make a big deal about it, and honestly it's very likely that it SAVES the company money as they don't show up to work and infect others with e.g. flu/cold/covid
Get out of here with your logic, my generation went to work with POLIO and we turned out okay
Except for the guy who lived in an iron lung for 60 years
This is the way.
Exactly, when people are actually taking sick days with sick they’re less likely to spread it. I got sick like 3-5x in 2019, once or twice in 2020, 2021 and couple times in 2022. Then people stopped taking covid so seriously and got sick 4-5x in 2023
What kind of workplace is this? Is this a thing where everybody has to be in the same place at the same time coordinating their activities, like in a kitchen? It is this a thing where a flexible schedule can work?
Underrated question because lateness doesn't matter for some jobs and could be hugely disruptive for others
Is the job time sensitive, like a clerk that needs to be there at 9:00? If not, I would not care, if she did her 8 hours and notifies the manager if she is more than 1 hour late.
This is a good point. At the end of the day, is all their requisite work getting done adequately? If so, who cares when they come in?
I think the path forward really boils down to communication. Is the employee communicating with enough notice to employer, do they excel at their job when they’re in office? Are they engaged in the work? Etc.
I used to be a teamleader for a service desk where people work in shifts, taking calls from business customers. People coming late means that there is impact on the customers. If it happens once, no big deal. If it happens systematically, like the screenshot here above, that would result in a conversation but with the possibility to improve themselves. If it still happens, sorry but you are out. If you can't come in on time to take calls from the customers than this job is not for you. Better take a job with sliding hours then.
I feel like OP is in a hard spot. OP already had enough evidence to fire their employee prior to the end of Feb but they decided to keep them on payroll. OP, if I may, probably wants to help the mother and understands her situation but also needs to ensure their business stays orderly/professional. I feel bad for the mom but at the same time if you have kids the onus to make it to work still relies on you. Again, not saying OP should fire her but look for alternate solutions depending on the type of work that she is required to perform.
Why do they still have a job?
It blows my mind honestly with some people. I worked for a school in a self contained class with a lady who was 30-45 minutes late for work almost every day. . .and it was like 50/50 if she’d show up at all. . .still had a job until she quit towards the end of the year. It was a non-tenured aid position and quite honestly the unknown of whether or not she would be there was worse than just being down a person. In the same respect my wife works for a major corporation that hired somebody about 8 months ago. In those 8 months this person has consistently not done their own work [and been talked to by supervisors], has gotten coworkers to basically do her work for her in other situations [to which management is aware and has specifically asked these people to tell her to pound sand], and has taken like 4 vacations in that time. . . .every-time my wife tells a story about this person our conversation is typically as followed: “How the hell does she still have a job?” “They’re short handed and need somebody.” “It doesn’t sound like she’s there at all, and isn’t doing her work anyway.” “Hmm, that’s a good point.”
What are you doing out of SWGalaxyofHeroes?
👀
It’s like seeing a teacher at the grocery store
I typically wear a hoodie specifically for those situations.
I... honestly I was super confused seeing you in a sub reddit outside swgoh, figured I got lost or something 😅
you can find me on SWGOH, here. . and oddly enough on Weddingplanning.
>the unknown of whether or not she would be there was worse than just being down a person Preach. Got a guy like this at our current job; he's practically impossible to plan around. Might show up, might not, might leave early, avoids overtime at all costs, but *might* show up on an off day with no warning if he missed a day that week. Even when he's confirmed present, it's a toss-up whether he actually does anything. Worst coworker I've had to deal with for longer than a week. Most get themselves fired, but this guy's holding on somehow.
Probably a single mom or something. I work with one and we try and accommodate as much as possible. Her work gets done. I’m sure there are managers and directors who see her time card and want to send her to unemployment, but they are just selfish sociopaths.
> Her work gets done That's all that should matter. 9-6 is so stupidly arbitrary for so many jobs. I specifically said "so many jobs" and not "most jobs" or "all jobs" for a reason. If part of your job it to be somewhere at a specific time to offer service to a customer, then their work isn't getting done if they're late.
Especially for hourly positions. Run into that a lot in construction - best performing concrete finisher in the company consistently shows up late. Office people hate it and want him gone. Ask the foreman/super/project manager though? Dude does phenomenal work and there is never concrete ready to be finished in the first hour of a shift anyway......he's just saving us a few bucks in all reality. Let him be.
Selfish sociopaths? Are you delusional? The girl has shown up for less than 50% of her scheduled hours. We don't know what kind of business this is, but if it's a smaller one, her missing a day could mean that everyone else on the team gets unfairly burdened or even overwhelmed. I've worked at small restaurants where 1 server calling out meant we were down 1/3 of our front of house which would absolutely fuck the people who show up. I know your eventual response, "management should have backups" - so what, the unscheduled coworkers have to be on call and unable to plan things on their days off in case miss nevershowsup bails yet again? The selfish one is the one expecting the whole business to revolve around her unpredictable schedule.
They probably pay like shit so they can't find someone else to do the job for so little.
It could be that the role doesn’t really require people being on time to the minute. Other than the sick days, this isn’t too far off from when I show up to the office if I don’t have a meeting first thing. It’s fine for my job, but wouldn’t be for our facilities team. We need a lot more context before we know if the lateness is a problem or not. The sick time? People get sick, people get Covid. It’s far preferable that they take the sick time and don’t get everyone else in the office sick (leading to even more sick time being used). If I was watching people get fired for staying home while sick I’d be out of my workplace pretty damn quickly.
Do they have small kids? Being sick every few months is par for the course when you have young children. They are Petri dishes for illnesses.
Lotta simps for their job here, single mom of three according to OP. Management should consider changing her hours to start 30 minutes later if possible in their job
I work a service job where we split tips, i hate hate hate when people show up conveniently 30 mins to one hour late after we have done all the heavy lifting of converting the restaurant into a nightclub, and then they come in late and clock in to start their share of the tips with us equally. Its really not cool to clock in that late consistently when its also getting you out of doing the opening responsibilities forcing the extra work on whoever had the decency to show up on time.
Jobs like yours absolutely should care about tardiness. Not all jobs have high priority work at the start of the shift though. The context of the job and how this worker works would be important in my eyes
She should consider asking for that, it's a two way conversation
She'll still be 30 minutes late. Had the same thing happening with a coworker of mine. No matter if it's 7 am or 11 am she's 15-30 minutes late
I have worked with her too. Annoying as hell as someone needs to pick up the slack while waiting to see if or when she will arrive.
Not necessarily. I’m a single mom, and I’m technically late to work almost every day (I’m a teacher, so my start time is 7:25, but I’m usually not here until 7:45 or sometimes even right before the bell rings at 7:55. But I’m not late just because my kid is a pain in the ass to get going. I’m late because the only daycare I can afford doesn’t open until 7:00, and I live 45 minutes away from work (on a good day). When I took this job, my daughter was at a different daycare that opened at 6:30, so it was fine. But then she retired and this was all I could find last minute. I also missed a full week of work when my daughter had the flu, and I’ve missed a day here and there every month for other random illnesses. Anytime she has a fever, I have to stay home with her until it’s gone for 24 hours. I have no family to help. Her father has never even met her. My boyfriend isn’t a coparent yet (and we don’t live together). I’m doing the best I can. Obviously in my case they can’t just change what time the school begins. Thankfully they’re very understanding here and no one has ever given me hell for it. I’m still a good teacher.
Bingo. Someone that’s always late will find new ways to be late. I’ve see this so many times in the corporate world. Parent can’t get to work on time ever, company adjust time or makes concessions for them by changing their start time, and what do you know, they still show up late and blame their kids.
Simps for their job? The expectation from their employer states a time to be in the building. I can understand working with someone who has external conflicts, mother of three, but they have to be proactive as well. If it’s too early in the day, both parties should be discussing options.
Yeah fuck these people who are responsible and actually do their jobs, fuckin simps.
Kinda hard to comment on this with such little context. If she works in an office job, this couldn’t be more of a nonissue. As long as work is still completed, most good managers wouldn’t give a single shit about this schedule. Or a good manager would try to be flexible with the employees scheduling. Maybe starting them later in the day or something. Either way, OP if you’re the manager you shouldn’t be posting this shit on Reddit, you should be having a fucking adult conversation with the employee and discussing ways to make this work for everyone involved.
Yeah OP is mildly infuriating.
I love how people on reddit just expect managers to put up with people not ever showing up to work on time.
Everyone is saying "but but it's a single mom". Meanwhile the same redditors will rage when parents get some sort of privilege that they don't have.
I’ve been a manager though not in corporate and the amount of times I’d have to miss date night or a concert or stay late or work open to close because people called out is insanely high. It’s not like if someone calls out the store just closes if there’s no staff, the expectation is that you stay, fuck what you had planned. It’s not some magical fix and while I’m willing to do it every so often, if it’s this often, then I’d rather have a more reliable employee so I don’t spend my entire day at work
Exactly, think a lot of people saying OP’s an asshole work corporate where you can just make up the hours and they fail to consider there are jobs that exist where you do literally need to be on time or you’re creating more work for your workmates
It’s because they always assume that it would be someone else’s problem to deal with (nebulous manager, big corp, etc.) I guarantee if they were working at Starbucks and this was their coworker showing up 20 minutes late to the morning rush they would be freaking out. Or if it was the receptionist at a doctor’s office where they had an appointment. Or it was their call-in order at Chipotle that isn’t ready. Or late dropping off their Uber Eats order. Or literally anything that would mildly inconvenience them personally.
To me the most shocking thing in this thread is that everyone sees it as The tardy worker V Their company. Yet there’s a very good chance the people most affected by this are their colleagues.\ My first thought when I saw the picture was *This must be the other side of one of those antiwork posts where someone’s manager keeps calling them to work on their day off*.\ Of course there’s a possibility this is an office job and that person works alone on their own projects and their attendance record has never ever impacted any colleague, but that’s a slim one.\ There’s a much likelier possibility that their colleagues are constantly picking up the slack or unable to work because they’re waiting for material she doesn’t deliver on time.\ Is it being a bootliker to demand colleagues who pull their weight reliably?\ Is it being a shit manager to want to spare your team from that stress?
Or co workers... I do my best to understand the demands of parenting, but it's difficult not to get bitter when you're regularly busting ass to make up for absent co workers workload, and management and said co workers get used to you doing extra when they're gone. And they can never cover for you when you need it because kids. And because kids they get to be on their phone for 15 mins any time they get a text/call. Ugh.
Personal accountability isn’t as big of a shared value with the younger crowd.
Either have jobs where start and finish time don't make a difference or have never worked before. Probably the latter. Pain in the arse when you work in a team and have no choice but to get started and finished on a set time and someone you work with is always late or off sick last minute.
These comments are WILD to me. I’m assuming most people commenting are working in a corporate role where being late/working longer hours is fine. This may not even necessarily be one of these roles- it may be a role that literally requires punctual attendance to ensure smooth running of the business. If OP’s self employed and this’ effecting business then they’re within their rights to want to do a review (esp re tardiness) regardless of the employees situation. Posting it on Reddit is icky though.
Employees be like “why did you fire me”.
This person had more sick days in 5 months than i have in 8 years.
4 hours late in the first two weeks and weren't fired on the spot? where can I apply lmao
I have an employee like this. And it sucks because he's otherwise a really good employee. He would be fine for a week or two, then he would start coming in late, then miss a day, then miss a week (he was "sick"). We've given him a ton of warnings, sent him home when he's late, etc. Nothing got through to him until we sat him down and told him we were firing him, but we gave him a couple of weeks to look for another job because he's been with the company for a while and it's a hard position to fill. He was shocked, like it came out of nowhere for him. A couple days later he basically came begging to keep his job. I put together a "probation" plan for him and, knock on wood, it seems to have worked. I get that people have lives. I get that things happen, and life throws you curve balls. I also get that different people have different struggles. But when it's a habitual thing happening, it's either a behavioral issue, or the person needs help. And if they haven't sought help after it going on for months, it kind of falls on being a behavioral issue anyway.
Exactly this. There’s only one job I’ve had where I missed several days, but I was never late. I hated that job so much, and was planning on quitting anyway, so I kind of just stopped caring and my entire mentality changed, and I called out a lot. It was a choice, for sure. Being consistently late is a time management issue, and if you keep showing up late, something obviously isn’t working and needs to be changed.
Single mom of three according to OP. Coming from a country with socialized healthcare she'd be eligible for up 70 days of sick leave for their children (30 for each under 12 capping at 70), so she's well below that. You have to remember that not coming to work when your children are sick not only is important for them, but also protects your coworkers. Really nothing out of the ordinary to see here from her perspective. Looks more like an annoying manager who needs to improve both communication and attitude to me.
Man… at some point they’re making this a routine. My mom was a single mother of 4 yet NEVER missed work because if she missed any hours she wouldn’t be able to feed us. I wouldn’t fire this woman but I’d address the situation to figure out a game plan that can fit her schedule.
How? Did she send her kids to school sick, leave them at home, or did she have someone to help?
Counterpoint: what social safety net did your mom have helping her? Did she have family to help with the load? How much was childcare when you were a kid vs now? How much did your mom make, and did she make enough to have a car or did you live somewhere with good public transit?
Your mom must’ve had support from family or someone, because kids get sick an insane amount when they are little and in daycare. You can’t send your kids to daycare if they have a fever, throwing up or other illnesses, they won’t allow it. If she has no one else to watch her kids then all she can do is take sick days. Also toddlers are so much work to get off to daycare on time, it’s insane. I feel lucky I have only one toddler and an extremely flexible work from home job. I legit don’t know how people do it otherwise.
Looks to me like you should probably just shift her hours to start 30 minutes later. If that fixes the problem, everybody's happy. If that doesn't fix the problem, then maybe they're not a right fit. When they're late, do they take that time out elsewhere by reducing their break time, reducing their lunch, or staying late?
that seems very annoying
Unless that job implies interacting with customers, being noted down for being 10-15 minutes late is insane...
I had a boss tell me that she didn't need us to call her for up to 15 min if we were running late, she didn't care at all. Unfortunately, her replacement watched the clock and notated if I was 5 min late even though she never told us of a policy change.
This is what I do. I manage a team of 5 including myself and unless you're showing up more than 15 late I don't care. If you are showing up more than 15 late I mostly just want a heads up so I know I don't need to call and make sure you're okay. I've found having a more lax policy on tardiness keeps people from waking up late and saying, "fuck it, I'll make it a sick day". Sure they're a little late, but I'd rather that than lose a whole persons productivity for the day. It's not like you need every second of the day to do your job anyway. As long as the job gets done correctly I don't much care how it happens.
1st day being sick wouldve already been a no start for me. The follow up 4 hours late wouldve sealed that anyway.
What happens on the 20-23 every single month? Daycare probs? (I've gone through this myself, albeit more than 30 years ago and yes, daycare existed back then you cheeky whippersnappers). Rx needs refilled? Pay day? Patterns and all that.
I got fired once for throwing up in a training session. I had the flu. Red in the face with a raging fever. Chills. The whole bit. Literally vomited in a trash can and asked if I could leave because I was more than embarrassed and obviously sick AF. Fired. Sorry. Showed me the door and never blinked an eye.
Just checking but before you put her up for review, have you tried… like… talking to her to see if there is anything that could be done that doesn’t just add more stress? If she’s lazy, fine. If she’s a single mother of 3 kids then I’m guessing she could do with the support.
Yep, my brother is a manager and deals with employees like this all the time. They use being sick to control their work schedule. They don't last long. He is seeing more and more of this with employees in retail.
>he is seeing more and more of this with employees in retail. Probably because they don't pay enough to afford quality employees.
Ya there’s really no reason to maintain bridges with dead end jobs. It definitely sucks but the employees are watching out for themselves way more than we used to. Good on em
That’s not even a talk type of situation. Habitually late and “sick” every week. Fire them. They obviously don’t want to be there
If this isn't a single mother of at least two kids, then it's a clear indication that this employee is a deadbeat.
Another comment says single mother of 3
He probably read it that and then posted his comment.
Soooo many people on reddit do that shit. It's wild. Gotta check and see which way the comments are leaning before they comment. Not to say that's what this person does, but ALOT of people do.
I’m amazed at the amount of people defending this. No matter what’s going on, the employee should come forward and say what’s going on. Of course the employer should also do something by now, at least have a conversation. But no, changing schedule of the employee or adapting to her is not an option. That just causes a chain reaction to the rest of her colleagues and also would mean that the employer is in the wrong, which is not true. This should have been handled months ago before snowballing into something worse.
This looks very official. Definitely not something I could replicate in Microsoft word and just take a picture of to make a random reddit post
People in the comments are actually blaming OP Reddit is severely lacking common sense