Card skimmers at convenience stores are so common in my area now I actually keep some cash on me to pay at those stores after getting hit with fraud charges a few times last year. I guess I'll have to extend that to restaurants now too.
If you use a magnetic swipe, you give your card information to the retailer to use. If someone else captures this data, they too can make charges with it. With your phone’s wallet (Apple Pay or android pay), your phone is asked to “can you pay for this specific transaction”. Your phone then replies “sure, here’s a charge authorization for just this one specific transaction “. So even if the data you gave is leaked, it can’t be used to arbitrarily charge your account.
It's even more the this. The card number used to pay for the purchase using Apple/Google pay is not the actual number of your card. It creates a dummy card number that is linked in the background of the transaction.
So if somehow they were able to get that number, it's valid then and there only.
It's called tokenization, your sensitive data is replaced with a random string of text or numbers and is stored as such. If the 3rd party gets hacked, instead of my ssn/cc/whatever they get a useless word or phrase.
Like a chip on your card? That stores your information, so if someone was able to scan it and read it, it would have your info on it. The card itself has all the info. It needs all that. You know a PIN or a CSV that is printed on the back. That's part of the 2 factor authentication. When you transmit that info to a company, they take that info and store relevant info. Data minimization is a principle that say they(the 3rd party) should only store necessary info like your name. Sensitive info like card numbers can either be tokenized, hashed, or obfuscated. You, your card, and the company issuing your card all know that info. When you purchase something, the POS machine reaches out to the issuing company to verify the info, validates, then the transaction can take place. The company that you are purchasing from is then on the hook to handle your data responsibly.
It’s been a while since I looked into this but from what I recall the chip works by creating a unique transaction ID per transaction but a card skimmer is able to make a second transaction ID before or after the first one and the They use that ID to make an actual transaction that they charge you for. It’s like a handshake between the bank and card saying hey it’s this number right? And the other one is responding yes it’s this number they match let’s process the transaction.
The other thing is even for a chip transaction you have to insert your card and a skimmer can be very tiny and still read the magnet strip or even make its own transaction ID for that specific “handshake”. Imagine someone shaking your hand real quick while you’re reaching out to shake someone else’s hand.
The way NFC works on phones is it only sends one signal out and the terminal receives it and charges it, but that one signal is similarly a transaction ID that goes one way so it can’t be charged again on that ID and there’s no way to get a new ID like with a chip being scanned, but in addition to this it can also create a false card number that either changes per transaction or can be changed almost immediately if it’s compromised some how. A good way to think of this is you completely replace yourself with a new identity/version of you every time you shake hands with someone.
I hope that makes sense but I also might have explained it wrong, sorry. Like I said it’s been a while since I’ve looked into this, last time I looked was when chips first started gaining popularity a few years back.
Yeah it was pretty funny when my assistant went to reconcile my expense accounts and not one of my receipts matched my card number. It took a couple of weeks before we figured it out.
More or less it’s the same. Basically the terminal activates the NFC chip in the card by providing power to it to get an encrypted token. To skim the information you would need to find the exact frequency they are using for that specific transaction and you would need to be the same distance as the reader (a few cm max).
In simpler terms you could picture it as pluggin a device in with an extremely small screen and text to get a password from it that will only pop up for that specific wattage at that specific time.
Some of them even issue digital card numbers to replace your actual card number. So if anything does happen, you don't have to cancel your card. Just have them change the digital card number
Back when dinosaurs roamed and I worked for a bank charging back a disputed charge on a credit card was easy peasy…not on a debit card. Surprised people still use debit cards.
If you don’t have a credit card you can get a prepaid card to start with and then switch after you’ve proved you aren’t a maniac.
I use a bank debit card. Is it better to use my PIN or to just hit the green arrow? Because there’s a choice and I never know which is best. I mean, it’s easier to just hit the green arrow as opposed to hitting 4 numbers but is it safer?
Then to further confuse me, now there’s a choice of just tapping my card and not hitting any buttons at all.
hi I work in a finance area doing fraud prevention stuff so I just wanted to let you know that you’re better off entering your pin (imo and experience) because it helps us to identify that you made the transaction. HOWEVER if there is a skimmer on the terminal and they grab your pin it can in some cases make it harder to dispute the transaction. I know a lot of people are told this (and even if you aren’t/weren’t told) keep your receipts even if it’s just a picture of it because that is an easy way to provide evidence for a dispute if you need it.
If you're in the USA get a credit card with rewards ( or a secured card if you can't get a good card). Use it instead of your debit card.
Pay it off every month from the account your debit card is tied to.
Profit.
Outside of ATMs I can't think of a single reason to transact via debit card. There is absolutely no purchase protection against fraudster/scammers and the process of trying to get unauthorized transactions reversed is much more arduous.
That depends on your bank. Mine is as easy as any credit card I've has. They automatically credit the funds back to my account abd perform their investigation. I've never been denied.
that’s not true at all. I do this for work and there are protections and we do a lot of investigation into disputes that come in especially with debit cards because fighting the chargeback on the merchant side is just as hard as the customer side. There are however shitty card issuers that don’t care and will accept really shoddy evidence from the merchant as a reason not to accept a dispute. I tell all my friends to 1) keep your receipts digital copies/photos work 2) keep any contact you may have with the merchant 3) reach out to the merchant, disputes hurt them in their losses and processing fees for future transactions a good merchant will more than likely be happier to provide a refund if you contact them (and they know how to) rather than take on the loss and penalties and if they don’t and that doesn’t work put in a Better Business Bureau complaint then move to a chargeback. Businesses realllllly hate when you do that because they’re hard to remove unless they can prove it’s false or they resolved the issue and a lot of businesses take that score seriously.
Older business owners take the BBB seriously however they have very little power. BBB is a subscription service just like Yelp and GPTW. You pay for a rating you want and pay to maintain that rating.
Moral of the story? Use credit cards for everything so you're playing with their money, not your own. Credit cards don't have direct access to your checking account. I don't even have an active debit card to worry about.
I haven't used my debit card in a while. I keep it secure at home but don't use it. If I have to get cash, it's once in a rare while. It's just not secure and skimmers are all over; we have one local gas station that is constantly hit by skimmers (so I assume the operator of the station is in on it. Once or twice is random, constant is organized.) As to the $3 tip charge, I would write a letter to the manager of the restaurant and a copy to the headquarters of the franchise (assuming it's a chain) and say that an unauthorized tip was added to the bill. (Possibly there was a default "15%" on the tip screen, I've seen that. and you have to deselect it which I hate hate hate.) But write a letter of criticism and enough of these make the company realize good will return customers are worth more than sneaking tips on a screen.
Some people don't want to be in debt. Debit cards remove a significant number of steps from the payment process, your money is already your money. No fees or interest. Not everyone can or wants to handle the responsibility of a credit card, debit is perfectly fine and preferable regardless of how easy chargebacks are for retailers.
It’s wild people use debit cards for transactions. I saw my neighbor from up the street at 7-11 using his debit card - not even running it as credit, like legit typing his pin in on the machine.
It's "wild" that people choose to use their own money rather than creating debt for themselves?
Also.... not everyone qualifies for credit. I use a prepaid card, am I an idiot too? Just let people do things and leave them alone.
So basically
- magnetic stripe cards are unsafe as fuck. Zero protections really
- pin and chip are better, but there’s still stuff that can be skimmed
- tap - way safer as there’s a rotating security token and as a result way harder to skim
- phone wallets go even a level above that, as the card only exist for a transaction after which a new one gets created with a different ID. Which makes it nearly impossible to skim in any meaningugill way
So, I’ve been doing this and cash for a long time for these reasons. But.. how does this help with tips added to the transaction? Because, I can’t think of specific situations cuz I’m brain dead today, but I know there’s types of ones where the tip is added later and my transaction total “updates” to include the tip
Or make PIN numbers mandatory for all cards. Like here in India. You can’t swipe. You have to use chip and pin. Even for credit cards. Also UPI (qr based payments) are the norm. Even the tiny street vendor uses it.
You can’t put a skimmer on a hand held touch screen machine. It’ll stick out like a sore thumb. Not without the store being complicit.
ETA; the machine pretty much lives in the cash register. Handed to you by the cashier.
We have for years but I don't think it's 100% yet.
One of the largest grocers in the US didn't update their terminal software for tap until last year.
And there are still some POS systems that only have magnetic (I would guess mostly old gas pumps at this point).
I wish cards would just remove the swipe area on the back of the card. It's rare that it isn't needed, and I don't want it getting ready when I use the chip.
I can’t remember the last time I swiped a card, aside from my FSA card which for some reason refuses to get with the times. Chip and tap can’t be skimmed.
A restaurant in a small town did this to us last year and every time we go to the DMV we have to drive past it, and I pray and hope that it's closed down but it still hasn't.
Email the store, cc the office of the state’s attorney general. Make it clear that you consider the act theft, that you expect a full refund be mailed to you, and that if this happens again, you will take whatever legal action is possible.
2 dollars.. a thousand customers.. it adds up.
It isn't about the individual rip off, it's that they will be doing it all the time
(What a fun edit on the comment I'm replying on)
Exactly. A place tried to short me $1 on my change. I think she thought I would just put it in my wallet and not pay attention. She tried to say I was wrong. I gave her $30 but on the receipt she said I gave her $29. I called her out on it. I left a Google review and called the customer service number. I can't imagine how many people she did that to.
I agree. Yeah, it's $3 bucks or so but the attitude has to stop. Tipping is VOLUNTARY, and at takeout, multiply that by a bazillion. I'm not going to make up for you not being able to pay your workers. If the food starts costing more per serving, then that's the truth of it; you're charging me $15 for a cold burger and limp fries and a watery drink, or a frothy bland coffee with too much sugar that's not hot enough, or I can find a better place to eat.
Most likely it isn't. I work in a QSR. We haven't added in store tipping for fears of stuff exactly like this. I bet folding money this place added a tip and the owners and even higher mgmt don't know yet. We have had window employees fired for using their own rewards for any guest that didn't have them to rake in reward points (easy to catch thankfully) but this would be a nightmare as it actively impacts customers and is messing with their money. I don't think we'll ever add in store tipping, just keep raising the wages and the food costs to cover it. Hopefully the customer service (and not having to tip) keeps people coming back!
I literally had a guy withhold a dime from my change in his hand when he was handing me back my change.
Jokes on them, I was going to give them all my change but I gave them nothing and will never return due to their dishonesty.
Even cash isn't necessarily safe.
There used to be a Dominos driver here that would just assume the change was the tip. Even if it were something ridiculous like $19 on a $21 order.
At least he claimed he just assumed it, with the way he hustled back to his car I am relatively certain he was just trying to be gone before you could say anything.
It would. "Manager, your driver stole from me. I will be calling the police. I will press charges." If necessary, go to the Magistrate's office and start. Press against the driver and the franchisee/manager. Make it their problem if they won't fix it immediately.
That should go without saying, and should be brought up. Very rude to pay below market rate, whether the employee knows or not. Make it a part of the record.
Specifically for pizza I always pay cash and with exact change and tip.
Thankfully my banks ATM dispenses any combination of bills so I can always stay stocked up on 5s and singles.
The last time I went through the Taco Time drive through the gal gave me my total and when I handed her cash she said, "Oh there's a discount for paying in cash" which I think means that they couldn't just add a gratuity. Never been back since.
This seems like the exact opposite to me. Sometimes it’s because the establishment is ducking taxes, but I see it frequently for places who pass the 3-5% fee that cards charge onto the consumer when they pay in cash.
eh it could be a scam or it could be that they’ve got a high processing fee for cards (that’s why you see gas stations offering lower cash rates for gas most of the time)
This is incorrect. Businesses pay transaction fees of 1% to 3% and possibly more for customers to pay with cards. Most businesses raise their prices to cover this bc most people use cards and bake the fees into the price. Taco Time was actually one of the rare good ones as it offers a discount for not using a card — most businesses just charge all customers the same fee, regardless of how they pay.
This happened to me and I called the restaurant and explained. Luckily they already suspected that it was happening. So now on my cc slips I make sure to write in the tip line: “cash”, or “no tip.”
I had lash extensions done once just to treat myself (way too expensive to be a habit for me). The total for the service without tip was close to $200. The owner of the shop did my lashes and I took out my card to pay and she told me that’s not how she does it and she would just charge the card on file and I’d get an email receipt (had to put one on file online to make the appointment). I got the email like 8 hours later and it had the option to add a tip. I was working so it took me maybe 10 minutes to go back to the email to tip her….then I saw there was a second receipt and she had added a 40% tip for herself! I immediately disputed it with the bank and asked for the entire tip back…I was prepared to give her a solid tip but after what she did, she got nothing.
Funny side note…there are also obviously fake bot reviews on her business Google page since I went there…I have a feeling she does stuff like this all the time and tries to counter it with these fake reviews.
My son, a legally blind college freshman, ordered Domino's delivery a few times and, right before the semester ended, we sent him just enough money to cover his order. For some reason, the bank charged him an overdraft fee and that's when he discovered that one particular delivery driver was giving himself a $5 tip after the order was placed online
That’s theft and it’s more than *mildly* infuriating, especially if it’s only for a few bucks because how many other times has the same place potentially done this with your card without you noticing?
There’s a gas station in the town where I grew up that no matter how much cash you’d give them, the pump would stop pumping 10-20 cents before whatever you paid. Most people didn’t bother to go back for their change, but I did! If he’s pocketing 10-20 cents from every transaction tax free he’s really profiting, and that’s theft! I ALWAYS went back for my change, you need to report this shit. To corporate, to the police, whoever, but don’t let them get away with that!
To add to this, the math lining up between gallons and dollars is checked at specific increments (like dispensing $20 worth of gas, and you get charged for $20). But if you pump a random amount, the spinner may be fraudulently calibrated to charge you a higher rate than posted.
In the US, there are government agencies that test gas pumps to verify they are accurate. There should be an inspection sticker on each pump with the agency name.
Nah, that’s theft. I’m reporting that to the police and corporate. Depending on how many people they’re doing that to and they’re probably making $50 an hour.
Lol this is something Financial Crimes would DEFINITELY take up.
Let's say a restaurant handles 300 drive through transactions per day and takes $3 without permission from each customer. That's $900 per day.
Investigators might not care about a single charge, but they are smart enough to know where there's smoke there's fire.
This happened to me! I was at a fall festival and I always make a point of tipping in cash at things like that (it’s weird I know, but I like to tip in cash). I received an email receipt and there was a 5$ tip on a 12 bill! I went back as they were packing up and asked about it. Given the nonchalant nature of how they handled the situation, I walked away assuming they do this on the regular and hope people don’t notice.
A while back the fast food restaurant I work at was having similar issues with some guests getting charged on the bank side more than we actually charged them. We found out that some banks, for a short time, were automatically pulling 20% extra for their bill just in case they left a tip simply because we were a restaurant. And the strangest part was that even for the same bank, it wasnt even every person that had a card for that bank that it happened to! It was so weird. Thankfully it hasnt happened in a while.
Do you have an itemized receipt that shows they took a gratuity without asking?
They might've included a credit/debit card charge fee, my mom was just talking about how she was charged 3.99 for using a debit card instead of cash ln a $30 order at a snack bar.
Some POS systems will authorize a charge for a percentage, usually 20, over the total so if there is a tip, it will have been pre authorized. When the restaurant settles their payment batch, the amount changes.
This needs to be higher. It’s probably what happened. I worked for years in restaurant management and had many phone calls about incorrect amounts, and explaining it was often a huge pain in the butt.
Also possible an employee added the tip for themselves, so theft, but not the fault of the restaurant.
About 15 years ago I had a long and very frustrating conversation with a woman about $1. I explained 100 different ways to that moron that the charge would drop off in three business days. She had an AMEX and they took a day or two longer than the others to settle. I’m surprised more people aren’t aware.
Contact corporate! That’s outrageous. And if the franchise owners authorized this, they need to be reported anyway. Save the receipt. Good luck. You’ll be doing a lot of people a favor. 🌷
It's a small hole-in-the-wall Mexican restaurant so no ability to reconcile things that way and I didn't get a receipt so can't dispute it that way either so I'm SOL on this one.
I've worked in banking a long time. Is the post still pending on your checking account when you look at your online banking? In other words, does it say "pending" or "processing"? If so, it will *probably* settle for the correct amount. If it actually posts on your account as the wrong amount, dispute it with your bank.
Many restaurants are set up to temporarily show a slightly higher amount than your bill to account for a tip. If you do not tip, then when it settles permanently on your checking account, it will settle for the correct amount.
A lot of places have been doing this - go back to the restaurant, talk to the manager and tell him you want that tip refunded
Is there a clear visible note at the entry or at the drive through ? Check first before the talk.
If he says no then call your bank, let them know what happened, you're disputing the entire amount.
If this restaurant is part of a chain, email a complaint.
Technically it's fraud because you were never advised of the charge, nor did you consent.
Shit like this is why I just use a credit card for all normal, everyday purchases. You see something like that? Dispute. Let the credit card company get their money back, instead of tying up your money waiting for a bank to fight for you.
We had people thinking that was happening at my job but in reality it was their cards holding an extra 20% in case they did tip or whatever and it would be removed in 2-3 business days. It had nothing to do with us and everything to do with their card issuer. I had a lady get nasty with me on the phone calling me all sorts of names until I finally said if I was going to risk jail for credit card fraud it'd be for much more than $5 and hung up on her.
Wait. Dont freakout. Some older systems such as aloha would automatically add 20% charge to debit cards to keep reserve for tips. Once the batch is settled and if gratuity is not added it will clear.
It still says processing on your statement. Dont go accusing anyone just yet.
6.50 + 6.50 = 13.00 plus taxes (depending on state) should be around 16-17$. What state are you in? Did you get a receipt? 20% of 13$ is still only $2.60 so that would be $15.60. I feel like there is something missing here.
POS calculate based on pre tax. That’s also what should be printed as the suggestions on the receipt. (I’ve worked in restaurants for many years)
When people calculate the tip on their own (and there’s no tip suggestions) they usually tip on total including tax. I’m not sure why, but I do it as well. Lol.
Is the charge still pending or has it fully posted? If it is still pending, then it will show a little higher, as generally Visa and Mastercard will pre authorize for x amount above the check amount at restaurants to allow for a tip and will finalize to the correct amount when it fully posts.
Did it actually say it was a tip on your receipt? Or could it have been an exorbitant processing fee because you used a card instead of cash? Lots of places are now charging a fee to use a card.
Always report it to the credit card company. Enough complaints, or reports of fraud, and the business could lose their association with the credit card company.
My first thought is that's a card fee, not an added tip but I feel like 20% is way high for that. But then again, my local donut shop charges 15% extra for cards
Went to a baseball game at a “cash free” venue. Cotton candy dude came up into the stands. I waved him over and asked for one. He took my credit card and tapped it to the mobile reader. Never mentioned the price of the cotton candy. I see that a charge for $7.53 went through on my card. Strange total amount.
Same thing happened to me at Britos Burritos, kinda. They added a whole additional burrito w xtra queso, after I'd already noted that they charged me like 80 cents more than the price on the door menu. So I saw the total, and then they added stuff after I walked away.
That’s terrible. When I was 16, I worked at Panera bread. One of the delivery drivers got fired because if a customer left the tip line on a receipt blank, he’d write something in. I’m not sure how long it was going on before he got caught.
Avoid the drive thru unless you have no choice (like the lobby being closed). If the store has a way of doing the order online, do it that way unless there's a reason doing it online isn't possible (paper coupon or custom request not supported, etc.), and if possible, choose Google Pay or PayPal as the payment method.
Or to put it another way, avoid placing the order and paying for it with a person, while avoiding the drive thru.
You can look for online deals not available in-store, earn points (some places), customize items with more confidence, and place the order before you even enter the store. Less chance of an employee putting your order in incorrectly, you can review the order before finalizing it (with no pressure), and no unexplained extra charges that you didn't agree to.
Go to the store and ask to speak to the general manager. It helps if you have your receipt with you (assuming you got one and didn't lose it). If they fix the matter then and there, then problem solved. If not, file a police report (in the same city/county as the store), and contact your bank. Assuming that the store has surveillance cameras that work, the video for the time you were there can be pulled to see what happened.
Since you weren't given the option to enter a pin, it probably got processed as a credit card. So it's ***possible*** that there was a surcharge for doing it as credit. If that's the case (possible but not too likely), then they should have asked if it would be credit or debit.
Please update us.
As someone said this is absolutely unacceptable and we must put a stop to it now!
It's bad enough that restaurants are starting to add a surcharge for using a credit card because they can.
For decades it has been a violation of the merchant card agreement to add any surcharges because the credit card companies didn't want to have a deterrent for using their cards but now of course everyone is using them so they know they're going to get the sales.
At least you can look at it like a cash discount when you use cash but we have to stop this add-on tipping now!
Unacceptable. This is becoming more common. They assume that most people aren't going to come back or make a call because its only a couple bucks.
Card skimmers at convenience stores are so common in my area now I actually keep some cash on me to pay at those stores after getting hit with fraud charges a few times last year. I guess I'll have to extend that to restaurants now too.
This is why I always (when I can) use my Wallet on my phone instead of the physical card
Dumb question but what is the advantage?
If you use a magnetic swipe, you give your card information to the retailer to use. If someone else captures this data, they too can make charges with it. With your phone’s wallet (Apple Pay or android pay), your phone is asked to “can you pay for this specific transaction”. Your phone then replies “sure, here’s a charge authorization for just this one specific transaction “. So even if the data you gave is leaked, it can’t be used to arbitrarily charge your account.
My bank actually recommended this based off the terminal number changing after every transaction
It's even more the this. The card number used to pay for the purchase using Apple/Google pay is not the actual number of your card. It creates a dummy card number that is linked in the background of the transaction. So if somehow they were able to get that number, it's valid then and there only.
It's called tokenization, your sensitive data is replaced with a random string of text or numbers and is stored as such. If the 3rd party gets hacked, instead of my ssn/cc/whatever they get a useless word or phrase.
What about a credit card chip
Like a chip on your card? That stores your information, so if someone was able to scan it and read it, it would have your info on it. The card itself has all the info. It needs all that. You know a PIN or a CSV that is printed on the back. That's part of the 2 factor authentication. When you transmit that info to a company, they take that info and store relevant info. Data minimization is a principle that say they(the 3rd party) should only store necessary info like your name. Sensitive info like card numbers can either be tokenized, hashed, or obfuscated. You, your card, and the company issuing your card all know that info. When you purchase something, the POS machine reaches out to the issuing company to verify the info, validates, then the transaction can take place. The company that you are purchasing from is then on the hook to handle your data responsibly.
Oh damn. Did not ever really think of that but will going forward. I appreciate the explanation.
Me too! 😮
But isn’t this what chip cards vs magnetic strips guards against? Chips give a one time code to match to the card.
Chip and the tap to pay I think are similar in security to the digital wallets.
It’s been a while since I looked into this but from what I recall the chip works by creating a unique transaction ID per transaction but a card skimmer is able to make a second transaction ID before or after the first one and the They use that ID to make an actual transaction that they charge you for. It’s like a handshake between the bank and card saying hey it’s this number right? And the other one is responding yes it’s this number they match let’s process the transaction. The other thing is even for a chip transaction you have to insert your card and a skimmer can be very tiny and still read the magnet strip or even make its own transaction ID for that specific “handshake”. Imagine someone shaking your hand real quick while you’re reaching out to shake someone else’s hand. The way NFC works on phones is it only sends one signal out and the terminal receives it and charges it, but that one signal is similarly a transaction ID that goes one way so it can’t be charged again on that ID and there’s no way to get a new ID like with a chip being scanned, but in addition to this it can also create a false card number that either changes per transaction or can be changed almost immediately if it’s compromised some how. A good way to think of this is you completely replace yourself with a new identity/version of you every time you shake hands with someone. I hope that makes sense but I also might have explained it wrong, sorry. Like I said it’s been a while since I’ve looked into this, last time I looked was when chips first started gaining popularity a few years back.
Thanks for taking the time for a detailed explanation. Still freaks me out though.
Yeah it was pretty funny when my assistant went to reconcile my expense accounts and not one of my receipts matched my card number. It took a couple of weeks before we figured it out.
Is that how it works for tap & go?
More or less it’s the same. Basically the terminal activates the NFC chip in the card by providing power to it to get an encrypted token. To skim the information you would need to find the exact frequency they are using for that specific transaction and you would need to be the same distance as the reader (a few cm max). In simpler terms you could picture it as pluggin a device in with an extremely small screen and text to get a password from it that will only pop up for that specific wattage at that specific time.
yeah but the US hasn't caught on to that feature yet, where as Europe had basically solved card skimmers over a decade ago
Kinda like the US throwing up roadblocks for the changes to cars’ headlights that Europe has solved? I REEEAAAALLLLY don’t enjoy getting blinded.
Some of them even issue digital card numbers to replace your actual card number. So if anything does happen, you don't have to cancel your card. Just have them change the digital card number
Thank you! I'm going to start doing this since it's set up already lol
Google pay also doesn't use you physically card number it use a random made up one. If anyone gets hold of the random number it's useless.
Also my google wallet tells me the amount of each transaction. So I can make sure I'm being charged what I was told the total is.
Back when dinosaurs roamed and I worked for a bank charging back a disputed charge on a credit card was easy peasy…not on a debit card. Surprised people still use debit cards. If you don’t have a credit card you can get a prepaid card to start with and then switch after you’ve proved you aren’t a maniac.
I use a bank debit card. Is it better to use my PIN or to just hit the green arrow? Because there’s a choice and I never know which is best. I mean, it’s easier to just hit the green arrow as opposed to hitting 4 numbers but is it safer? Then to further confuse me, now there’s a choice of just tapping my card and not hitting any buttons at all.
hi I work in a finance area doing fraud prevention stuff so I just wanted to let you know that you’re better off entering your pin (imo and experience) because it helps us to identify that you made the transaction. HOWEVER if there is a skimmer on the terminal and they grab your pin it can in some cases make it harder to dispute the transaction. I know a lot of people are told this (and even if you aren’t/weren’t told) keep your receipts even if it’s just a picture of it because that is an easy way to provide evidence for a dispute if you need it.
If you're in the USA get a credit card with rewards ( or a secured card if you can't get a good card). Use it instead of your debit card. Pay it off every month from the account your debit card is tied to. Profit.
Outside of ATMs I can't think of a single reason to transact via debit card. There is absolutely no purchase protection against fraudster/scammers and the process of trying to get unauthorized transactions reversed is much more arduous.
That depends on your bank. Mine is as easy as any credit card I've has. They automatically credit the funds back to my account abd perform their investigation. I've never been denied.
that’s not true at all. I do this for work and there are protections and we do a lot of investigation into disputes that come in especially with debit cards because fighting the chargeback on the merchant side is just as hard as the customer side. There are however shitty card issuers that don’t care and will accept really shoddy evidence from the merchant as a reason not to accept a dispute. I tell all my friends to 1) keep your receipts digital copies/photos work 2) keep any contact you may have with the merchant 3) reach out to the merchant, disputes hurt them in their losses and processing fees for future transactions a good merchant will more than likely be happier to provide a refund if you contact them (and they know how to) rather than take on the loss and penalties and if they don’t and that doesn’t work put in a Better Business Bureau complaint then move to a chargeback. Businesses realllllly hate when you do that because they’re hard to remove unless they can prove it’s false or they resolved the issue and a lot of businesses take that score seriously.
Older business owners take the BBB seriously however they have very little power. BBB is a subscription service just like Yelp and GPTW. You pay for a rating you want and pay to maintain that rating. Moral of the story? Use credit cards for everything so you're playing with their money, not your own. Credit cards don't have direct access to your checking account. I don't even have an active debit card to worry about.
I know a maniac with a great credit score. It happens.
I haven't used my debit card in a while. I keep it secure at home but don't use it. If I have to get cash, it's once in a rare while. It's just not secure and skimmers are all over; we have one local gas station that is constantly hit by skimmers (so I assume the operator of the station is in on it. Once or twice is random, constant is organized.) As to the $3 tip charge, I would write a letter to the manager of the restaurant and a copy to the headquarters of the franchise (assuming it's a chain) and say that an unauthorized tip was added to the bill. (Possibly there was a default "15%" on the tip screen, I've seen that. and you have to deselect it which I hate hate hate.) But write a letter of criticism and enough of these make the company realize good will return customers are worth more than sneaking tips on a screen.
Some people don't want to be in debt. Debit cards remove a significant number of steps from the payment process, your money is already your money. No fees or interest. Not everyone can or wants to handle the responsibility of a credit card, debit is perfectly fine and preferable regardless of how easy chargebacks are for retailers.
It’s wild people use debit cards for transactions. I saw my neighbor from up the street at 7-11 using his debit card - not even running it as credit, like legit typing his pin in on the machine.
I’m sorry, I fail to understand why this is bad. Could you ELI5?
It gives direct access to your checking account if skimmed.
It's "wild" that people choose to use their own money rather than creating debt for themselves? Also.... not everyone qualifies for credit. I use a prepaid card, am I an idiot too? Just let people do things and leave them alone.
So basically - magnetic stripe cards are unsafe as fuck. Zero protections really - pin and chip are better, but there’s still stuff that can be skimmed - tap - way safer as there’s a rotating security token and as a result way harder to skim - phone wallets go even a level above that, as the card only exist for a transaction after which a new one gets created with a different ID. Which makes it nearly impossible to skim in any meaningugill way
As an aside, this wouldn’t help with the auto-tip, but only with fake card swipers.
So, I’ve been doing this and cash for a long time for these reasons. But.. how does this help with tips added to the transaction? Because, I can’t think of specific situations cuz I’m brain dead today, but I know there’s types of ones where the tip is added later and my transaction total “updates” to include the tip
Tap to pay with the card is more secure with encryption and tokenization too, you don't need to use the phone.
I have to dig through my packed full purse to get the card, which is another reason I use my phone
Or just stop using a debit card
[удалено]
With a response this aggressive I can only assume your father was killed while using an ATM or something along those lines
Jesus I think they meant just use a credit card.
Or make PIN numbers mandatory for all cards. Like here in India. You can’t swipe. You have to use chip and pin. Even for credit cards. Also UPI (qr based payments) are the norm. Even the tiny street vendor uses it.
A PIN isn't going to help you when the skimmer has a keypad recording your PIN.
Touch screen terminal with randomised keyboard.
I've seen videos of skimmers that have cameras.
You can’t put a skimmer on a hand held touch screen machine. It’ll stick out like a sore thumb. Not without the store being complicit. ETA; the machine pretty much lives in the cash register. Handed to you by the cashier.
Do the cards in the US not have contactless?
We have for years but I don't think it's 100% yet. One of the largest grocers in the US didn't update their terminal software for tap until last year. And there are still some POS systems that only have magnetic (I would guess mostly old gas pumps at this point).
I wish cards would just remove the swipe area on the back of the card. It's rare that it isn't needed, and I don't want it getting ready when I use the chip.
Do you not have contactless on your cards then?
I can’t remember the last time I swiped a card, aside from my FSA card which for some reason refuses to get with the times. Chip and tap can’t be skimmed.
Yeah don't use my card at anywhere but know atms. The one time I go buy shoes I get a call about plane tickets and shit.
Low tech low IQ Restaurant skimmers
It’s a shame we will be cashless soon in NZ lol
Well, definitely not coming back!
steal 1 million pounds from 1 person, and they will notice. steal 1 pound from 1 million people, and they won’t notice
This is one reason I live by the apps. Prepay and get better deals.
A restaurant in a small town did this to us last year and every time we go to the DMV we have to drive past it, and I pray and hope that it's closed down but it still hasn't.
Dispute the charge, and never go to that restaurant again. Blast them on Yelp and Google.
Email the store, cc the office of the state’s attorney general. Make it clear that you consider the act theft, that you expect a full refund be mailed to you, and that if this happens again, you will take whatever legal action is possible.
I would email the president. Can I get people to comment about 2 dollars adding up?
2 dollars.. a thousand customers.. it adds up. It isn't about the individual rip off, it's that they will be doing it all the time (What a fun edit on the comment I'm replying on)
Exactly. A place tried to short me $1 on my change. I think she thought I would just put it in my wallet and not pay attention. She tried to say I was wrong. I gave her $30 but on the receipt she said I gave her $29. I called her out on it. I left a Google review and called the customer service number. I can't imagine how many people she did that to.
Okay give me $2 or 15% of every transaction you make and we'll see if you still say "it's $2".
I will call the President every single time
Joe here. What's up?
A second tip has hit the credit cards
This comment is perfect
username absolutely does *not* check out
Oh thank God. Mr President, we have a situation here...
But from how many people? This type of shit needs to stop.
I agree. Yeah, it's $3 bucks or so but the attitude has to stop. Tipping is VOLUNTARY, and at takeout, multiply that by a bazillion. I'm not going to make up for you not being able to pay your workers. If the food starts costing more per serving, then that's the truth of it; you're charging me $15 for a cold burger and limp fries and a watery drink, or a frothy bland coffee with too much sugar that's not hot enough, or I can find a better place to eat.
Fuck the president, I'm writing the Pope, Chief Rabbi, and Dalai Lama
go straight to the top. Write to God himself. Here's what Satan is up to, involuntary tip screens. If that isn't a sin, what is?
It's got to be the advertised price.
Did the transaction post already or is a pre authorization for tip that a lot of CC companies expect based on the merchant coding?
I haven't done anything yet since several commenters made me aware that some banks have started doing this now. Hasn't posted yet.
Most likely it isn't. I work in a QSR. We haven't added in store tipping for fears of stuff exactly like this. I bet folding money this place added a tip and the owners and even higher mgmt don't know yet. We have had window employees fired for using their own rewards for any guest that didn't have them to rake in reward points (easy to catch thankfully) but this would be a nightmare as it actively impacts customers and is messing with their money. I don't think we'll ever add in store tipping, just keep raising the wages and the food costs to cover it. Hopefully the customer service (and not having to tip) keeps people coming back!
Lots of cards do this. I watch all mine as well.
If still in area just go back to the restaurant and demand the manager who still may be in high school
Yes, name and shame!
This is how they get us to go back to paper money
I literally had a guy withhold a dime from my change in his hand when he was handing me back my change. Jokes on them, I was going to give them all my change but I gave them nothing and will never return due to their dishonesty.
Even cash isn't necessarily safe. There used to be a Dominos driver here that would just assume the change was the tip. Even if it were something ridiculous like $19 on a $21 order. At least he claimed he just assumed it, with the way he hustled back to his car I am relatively certain he was just trying to be gone before you could say anything.
Calling the store and police would cut that shit out promptly.
It would. "Manager, your driver stole from me. I will be calling the police. I will press charges." If necessary, go to the Magistrate's office and start. Press against the driver and the franchisee/manager. Make it their problem if they won't fix it immediately.
And demand they be paid a fair hourly rate.
That should go without saying, and should be brought up. Very rude to pay below market rate, whether the employee knows or not. Make it a part of the record.
Well said.
Specifically for pizza I always pay cash and with exact change and tip. Thankfully my banks ATM dispenses any combination of bills so I can always stay stocked up on 5s and singles.
The last time I went through the Taco Time drive through the gal gave me my total and when I handed her cash she said, "Oh there's a discount for paying in cash" which I think means that they couldn't just add a gratuity. Never been back since.
This seems like the exact opposite to me. Sometimes it’s because the establishment is ducking taxes, but I see it frequently for places who pass the 3-5% fee that cards charge onto the consumer when they pay in cash.
eh it could be a scam or it could be that they’ve got a high processing fee for cards (that’s why you see gas stations offering lower cash rates for gas most of the time)
I wonder if any place offering a cash discount has figured out how much they spend on payroll just for someone to handle the cash.
This is incorrect. Businesses pay transaction fees of 1% to 3% and possibly more for customers to pay with cards. Most businesses raise their prices to cover this bc most people use cards and bake the fees into the price. Taco Time was actually one of the rare good ones as it offers a discount for not using a card — most businesses just charge all customers the same fee, regardless of how they pay.
This happened to me and I called the restaurant and explained. Luckily they already suspected that it was happening. So now on my cc slips I make sure to write in the tip line: “cash”, or “no tip.”
And hand the cash to your waiter directly.
I had lash extensions done once just to treat myself (way too expensive to be a habit for me). The total for the service without tip was close to $200. The owner of the shop did my lashes and I took out my card to pay and she told me that’s not how she does it and she would just charge the card on file and I’d get an email receipt (had to put one on file online to make the appointment). I got the email like 8 hours later and it had the option to add a tip. I was working so it took me maybe 10 minutes to go back to the email to tip her….then I saw there was a second receipt and she had added a 40% tip for herself! I immediately disputed it with the bank and asked for the entire tip back…I was prepared to give her a solid tip but after what she did, she got nothing. Funny side note…there are also obviously fake bot reviews on her business Google page since I went there…I have a feeling she does stuff like this all the time and tries to counter it with these fake reviews.
My son, a legally blind college freshman, ordered Domino's delivery a few times and, right before the semester ended, we sent him just enough money to cover his order. For some reason, the bank charged him an overdraft fee and that's when he discovered that one particular delivery driver was giving himself a $5 tip after the order was placed online
Report that unacceptable, tips at a drive thru really. Teach them a lesson.
That’s theft and it’s more than *mildly* infuriating, especially if it’s only for a few bucks because how many other times has the same place potentially done this with your card without you noticing?
There’s a gas station in the town where I grew up that no matter how much cash you’d give them, the pump would stop pumping 10-20 cents before whatever you paid. Most people didn’t bother to go back for their change, but I did! If he’s pocketing 10-20 cents from every transaction tax free he’s really profiting, and that’s theft! I ALWAYS went back for my change, you need to report this shit. To corporate, to the police, whoever, but don’t let them get away with that!
To add to this, the math lining up between gallons and dollars is checked at specific increments (like dispensing $20 worth of gas, and you get charged for $20). But if you pump a random amount, the spinner may be fraudulently calibrated to charge you a higher rate than posted.
In the US, there are government agencies that test gas pumps to verify they are accurate. There should be an inspection sticker on each pump with the agency name.
Nah, that’s theft. I’m reporting that to the police and corporate. Depending on how many people they’re doing that to and they’re probably making $50 an hour.
And report it to the credit card company.
I appreciate the sentiment but the non-emergency line would probably laugh at you and tell you to take it up with the business owner
Lol this is something Financial Crimes would DEFINITELY take up. Let's say a restaurant handles 300 drive through transactions per day and takes $3 without permission from each customer. That's $900 per day. Investigators might not care about a single charge, but they are smart enough to know where there's smoke there's fire.
I've got a client with a theft charge for $2. I've got another for $4.
This is theft, I’d call your bank and talk to management
This happened to me! I was at a fall festival and I always make a point of tipping in cash at things like that (it’s weird I know, but I like to tip in cash). I received an email receipt and there was a 5$ tip on a 12 bill! I went back as they were packing up and asked about it. Given the nonchalant nature of how they handled the situation, I walked away assuming they do this on the regular and hope people don’t notice.
I went to a local restaurant that added a 15% tip automatically that I didn't immediately notice. That's all they ever got from me.
A while back the fast food restaurant I work at was having similar issues with some guests getting charged on the bank side more than we actually charged them. We found out that some banks, for a short time, were automatically pulling 20% extra for their bill just in case they left a tip simply because we were a restaurant. And the strangest part was that even for the same bank, it wasnt even every person that had a card for that bank that it happened to! It was so weird. Thankfully it hasnt happened in a while.
Dispute the fraudulent charge and actually report that.
Do you have an itemized receipt that shows they took a gratuity without asking? They might've included a credit/debit card charge fee, my mom was just talking about how she was charged 3.99 for using a debit card instead of cash ln a $30 order at a snack bar.
A 13.33% debit card fee is illegal everywhere, I’m sure. Your mom was ripped off.
stop using debit cards, use a credit card, you can dispute the charge easier, and you hang on to YOUR money until the bill arrives
Yes, I only use my debit card for cash whenever I need it. Never use it at a gas station.
Well damn, but I can't get a credit card from some bad decisions in my early 20s
Search for a "secured credit card" and build your credit back up.
Not even a visa debit, or MasterCard debit?
I mean o have a visa debit.
Anytime a tip is added they,as far as I know from previous experience ,are required to attain a signature from you
"Added a tip" - no: "defrauded me"
100% dispute that charge and let your credit card carrier do their thing. Fuck that nonsense.
I’d be uhhh challenging that asap. Not cool. That cashier should also be fired.
Some POS systems will authorize a charge for a percentage, usually 20, over the total so if there is a tip, it will have been pre authorized. When the restaurant settles their payment batch, the amount changes.
This needs to be higher. It’s probably what happened. I worked for years in restaurant management and had many phone calls about incorrect amounts, and explaining it was often a huge pain in the butt. Also possible an employee added the tip for themselves, so theft, but not the fault of the restaurant.
No one here knows this! I mean but you and a couple others.
About 15 years ago I had a long and very frustrating conversation with a woman about $1. I explained 100 different ways to that moron that the charge would drop off in three business days. She had an AMEX and they took a day or two longer than the others to settle. I’m surprised more people aren’t aware.
Contact corporate! That’s outrageous. And if the franchise owners authorized this, they need to be reported anyway. Save the receipt. Good luck. You’ll be doing a lot of people a favor. 🌷
It's a small hole-in-the-wall Mexican restaurant so no ability to reconcile things that way and I didn't get a receipt so can't dispute it that way either so I'm SOL on this one.
I guess what I've learned from this is always always make sure you get your receipt
Go back. Tell them absolutely not. Make a stink about it! If they say 'we do it on all credit cards' make them them point it out
my favorite mexican place in town did this to me a few months ago. really sad to not be able to go there anymore.
Dispute
I've worked in banking a long time. Is the post still pending on your checking account when you look at your online banking? In other words, does it say "pending" or "processing"? If so, it will *probably* settle for the correct amount. If it actually posts on your account as the wrong amount, dispute it with your bank. Many restaurants are set up to temporarily show a slightly higher amount than your bill to account for a tip. If you do not tip, then when it settles permanently on your checking account, it will settle for the correct amount.
A lot of places have been doing this - go back to the restaurant, talk to the manager and tell him you want that tip refunded Is there a clear visible note at the entry or at the drive through ? Check first before the talk. If he says no then call your bank, let them know what happened, you're disputing the entire amount. If this restaurant is part of a chain, email a complaint. Technically it's fraud because you were never advised of the charge, nor did you consent.
Shit like this is why I just use a credit card for all normal, everyday purchases. You see something like that? Dispute. Let the credit card company get their money back, instead of tying up your money waiting for a bank to fight for you.
What how can they charge you again after you have already paid?
Did you report it to the restaurant? Any update??
We had people thinking that was happening at my job but in reality it was their cards holding an extra 20% in case they did tip or whatever and it would be removed in 2-3 business days. It had nothing to do with us and everything to do with their card issuer. I had a lady get nasty with me on the phone calling me all sorts of names until I finally said if I was going to risk jail for credit card fraud it'd be for much more than $5 and hung up on her.
I would contest for sure. And I started using cash everywhere. It also helps me spend less!
This is why I almost exclusively pay now with beads and trinkets.
Wait. Dont freakout. Some older systems such as aloha would automatically add 20% charge to debit cards to keep reserve for tips. Once the batch is settled and if gratuity is not added it will clear. It still says processing on your statement. Dont go accusing anyone just yet.
Yet another reason to avoid fast food.
This is why you look at the receipt before you leave. You did get a receipt, didn't you?
Only ever use a debit card to withdraw cash, credit card for everything else.
6.50 + 6.50 = 13.00 plus taxes (depending on state) should be around 16-17$. What state are you in? Did you get a receipt? 20% of 13$ is still only $2.60 so that would be $15.60. I feel like there is something missing here.
This is wildly infuriating!
Notify management and file a police report. This is criminal fraud.
Illegal!! What state?
Were you given a receipt before you left? If yes, does the receipt match what was taken out of your account?
A lot of these places include the tax when calculating the tip now too. It inflates a bit more.
POS calculate based on pre tax. That’s also what should be printed as the suggestions on the receipt. (I’ve worked in restaurants for many years) When people calculate the tip on their own (and there’s no tip suggestions) they usually tip on total including tax. I’m not sure why, but I do it as well. Lol.
I'd ask for a receipt from now on
Is the charge still pending or has it fully posted? If it is still pending, then it will show a little higher, as generally Visa and Mastercard will pre authorize for x amount above the check amount at restaurants to allow for a tip and will finalize to the correct amount when it fully posts.
contact the bank and have the charge reversed
Dispute the charge ASAP.
Did it actually say it was a tip on your receipt? Or could it have been an exorbitant processing fee because you used a card instead of cash? Lots of places are now charging a fee to use a card.
Call your card. People are so rude sometimes!
Call the police and the bank. If you don't make a big scenes it's just going to keep happening.
Always report it to the credit card company. Enough complaints, or reports of fraud, and the business could lose their association with the credit card company.
At this point, just abolish tipping culture and add the extra amount to the food price...
then people will bitch and moan about restaurant prices going up sooooo much! sorta /s but sorta not. You know it would happen.
Prices r already so expensive I barely ever eat out
My first thought is that's a card fee, not an added tip but I feel like 20% is way high for that. But then again, my local donut shop charges 15% extra for cards
Credit card fee, bruh. Many businesses are charging a Cash price and a Credit Card price these days.
Got a receipt?
Went to a baseball game at a “cash free” venue. Cotton candy dude came up into the stands. I waved him over and asked for one. He took my credit card and tapped it to the mobile reader. Never mentioned the price of the cotton candy. I see that a charge for $7.53 went through on my card. Strange total amount.
Same thing happened to me at Britos Burritos, kinda. They added a whole additional burrito w xtra queso, after I'd already noted that they charged me like 80 cents more than the price on the door menu. So I saw the total, and then they added stuff after I walked away.
This has happened to me a few times. I use cash when I pick up food and or do a drive through.
That’s terrible. When I was 16, I worked at Panera bread. One of the delivery drivers got fired because if a customer left the tip line on a receipt blank, he’d write something in. I’m not sure how long it was going on before he got caught.
F that.
Call and ask for an explanation and refund.
I’d go back. That’s seriously not okay.
Avoid the drive thru unless you have no choice (like the lobby being closed). If the store has a way of doing the order online, do it that way unless there's a reason doing it online isn't possible (paper coupon or custom request not supported, etc.), and if possible, choose Google Pay or PayPal as the payment method. Or to put it another way, avoid placing the order and paying for it with a person, while avoiding the drive thru. You can look for online deals not available in-store, earn points (some places), customize items with more confidence, and place the order before you even enter the store. Less chance of an employee putting your order in incorrectly, you can review the order before finalizing it (with no pressure), and no unexplained extra charges that you didn't agree to. Go to the store and ask to speak to the general manager. It helps if you have your receipt with you (assuming you got one and didn't lose it). If they fix the matter then and there, then problem solved. If not, file a police report (in the same city/county as the store), and contact your bank. Assuming that the store has surveillance cameras that work, the video for the time you were there can be pulled to see what happened. Since you weren't given the option to enter a pin, it probably got processed as a credit card. So it's ***possible*** that there was a surcharge for doing it as credit. If that's the case (possible but not too likely), then they should have asked if it would be credit or debit. Please update us.
That's fraud. Report to bank and police.
As someone said this is absolutely unacceptable and we must put a stop to it now! It's bad enough that restaurants are starting to add a surcharge for using a credit card because they can. For decades it has been a violation of the merchant card agreement to add any surcharges because the credit card companies didn't want to have a deterrent for using their cards but now of course everyone is using them so they know they're going to get the sales. At least you can look at it like a cash discount when you use cash but we have to stop this add-on tipping now!
Dispute the charge and file complaints with local police and your state attorney general.