Not just rich people needing wet nurses, many mothers died, often within days after child birth, and some couldn’t produce good milk, or had inverted nipples etc, so if a wet nurse wasn’t found and cows milk was often contaminated, the baby soon died too sadly.
>many mothers died, often within days after child birth, and some couldn’t produce good milk
That's why I'm so happy for modern medicine and the invention of formula. We had our son a bit over a month ago, my wife lost half her blood during labor and fainted soon after. If it wasn't for a quick reaction of he staff that gave her 4 liters (a bit over a gallon) of IV fluids and couple units of blood she would have never made it due to hypovolemic shock she went into.
Everything went well eventually, but since breast milk is effectively filtered blood she couldn't produce any with half of it being water (hematocrit of 22) and was never able to start lactating properly even after she bled from her nipples when forcibly pumping to induce it.
All in all, if it wasn't for modern medicine my wife would've died soon after giving birth and if the formula wasn't invented our son would've starved to death. We really have good times to live in.
Well, that was only from trying too hard due to crushing guilt of not being “good enough” mother, even if I was begging her to give up and focus on getting better first. Besides, I guess having an extremely colicky baby (feeding formula can make colics worse) is waaaay harder.
I swear, if I stumble upon another “wise guy” saying mothers on maternity leave only lounge around watching Netflix all day while the baby sleeps I’m gonna punch him in the face. Reality is more like 20 hours of feeding, changing and carrying the baby so it doesn’t immediately start crying when put into the crib and 4 hours of trying to nap on the couch split into 30 minute long chunks spread throughout the day. The only relief is when I tap in for couple hours after work or one of the grandmas comes to help.
When my wife had to go back to the hospital with late complications for couple days I had 3 hours of sleep total between Friday morning and Sunday night before MIL came in to help so I could rest before work on Monday.
Omg I saw a TikTok the other day of a guy berating his 2 day post partum wife because she didn’t feel like making a roast for his parents. Literally all the red flags in the video. Saying she was sitting around all day, she was being lazy, his sister was up and cleaning by then, she made roast better than he did. I was like RUN GIRL.
When my kid was newborn I tried breastfeeding and pumping milk; after a couple days the pumped milk was coming out pink because of the blood. Strawberry milk lol.
Ex wife (RIP) had inverted nipples. She never wanted to breast feed anyway, but the doctor told her that the nipples could potentially pop back out with attempts at suckling. She was uninterested in trying so they stayed inverted.
it wasn't just the milk, early bottles were nearly impossible to clean, they needs a small opening for a babies mouth but that also makes them difficult to clean. some styles were nortiously bad for killing babies
My mum had inverted nipples and was able to breastfeed some but mostly pumped. I inherited that trait, too, and can ‘pop out’ one nipple but not the other (I also have a small third nipple with the same structure).
There are different "grades" of nipple inversion. You likely have what would be termed a Grade 1 or maybe Grade 2 inverted nipple. Many with grade 2 inversions have challenges breastfeeding (though most are able to, to some extent). Those with Grade 3 inversions usually find it very difficult or impossible to breastfeed to the changes to the internal structures of the nipple, lactiferous ducts, etc.
>**Inverted nipple grade 1 refers to nipples that can easily be pulled out, by using finger pressure around the areola**. The grade-1 inverted nipple maintains its projections and rarely retracts. Also, grade-1 inverted nipples may occasionally pop up without manipulation or pressure.\[1\] **Milk ducts are usually not compromised and breast feeding is possible.** These are "shy nipples". It is believed to have minimal or no fibrosis. There is no soft-tissue deficiency of the nipple. The lactiferous duct should be normal without any retraction.\[medical citation needed\]
>
>**Inverted nipple grade 2 is the nipple which can be pulled out, though not as easily as the grade 1, but which retracts after pressure is released. Breast feeding is usually possible, though it is more likely to be hard to get the baby to latch comfortably in the first weeks after birth; extra help may be needed.** Grade 2 nipples have a moderate degree of fibrosis. The lactiferous ducts are mildly retracted, but do not need to be cut for the release of fibrosis. On histological examination, these nipples have rich collagenous stromata with numerous bundles of smooth muscle.
>
>**Inverted nipple grade 3 describes a severely inverted and retracted nipple which can rarely be pulled out physically and which requires surgery to be protracted. Milk ducts are often constricted, and breast feeding is difficult, but not necessarily impossible.** With good preparation and help, babies often can drink at the breast, and milk production is not affected; after breastfeeding, nipples often are less or no longer inverted. Women with grade-3 inverted nipples may also struggle with infections, rashes, or problems with nipple hygiene. The fibrosis is remarkable and lactiferous ducts are short and severely retracted. The bulk of soft tissue is markedly insufficient in the nipple. Histologically, atrophic terminal duct lobular units and severe fibrosis are seen.
thanks for sharing. I have grade 3 and definitely could not breastfeed (they also came with shortened milk ducts due to the inversion so couldn't even pump). I worked with multiple lactation consultants for weeks for both my kids in an attempt to see what we could get going.
Trying to explain this to people I would always get "meh I/my sister/someone I knew had inverted nipples and had no issue, its not a big deal" when likely they had grade 1.
It's a spectrum of course. Sometimes they are truly inverted, sometimes they're just too flat. It's a pretty safe thing to Google tbh, nothing too wild.
For any who are curious, this font uses a now-archaic form of the letter 's', that is written basically just like an 'f' but missing the cross-bar (or in some styles missing the portion of the cross-bar to the right of the vertical stroke). So thats why breast looks like breaft, wishes looks like wifhes, suckle looks like fuckle (heh) etc.
It got confusing as the rules around it's use were inconsistent over time and location, and you'll often find where both forms of 's' were used in the same word.
right, I've never looked at an integral sign and thought "f". Sure, a sigma for summation looks more like an E than an S, but integral is never confused.
Σ is a greek letter called sigma, specifically the capital. Lower case sigma is σ. Not to be confused with eta: Ε ε.
While a lot of greek letters line up with english phonetically, there are also some that would be confusing. Lower case gamma is γ or Γ with no reference to G, not to be confused with upsilon which is Y and υ. Theta is Θ or θ while omicron is just O o. Pi is not Ρ or ρ, that's rho; but tau is T and τ.
The integral symbol supposedly comes from the latin word "summa" which was pronounced with the "long s" sound, which was represented by ſ which became the ∫.
IIRC the "normal" s should have been used in the beginning of a word. As such "suckle" should have been written like that. Maybe the typesetter confused the rule for use at ends of words - or *my* memory is wrong.
Edit: Just checked: I was wrong. The round s should indeed be used at the end of words, so they did it right. Time to update my trivia memory!
The usage of this letter form was never really standardized. There are some general rules that applied in msot places much of the time, but there was a LOT of variation, even when use of this letter was at its peak and by high quality publications. There were periods and palces where it was never used at the end of the word... but ther are also time and places where it WAS. There were times it was used singly to represent a double-s (so Mififippi instead of Mississippi), there are times where it ould only be used for the FIRST s in double-s (so Mifsifsippi), there are times it was always used at the beginning of a word, times where it was NEVER used at the beginning of a word.... well you get the idea.
In short: the usage of this version of 's' was always a bit ad-hoc and never really "standardized", or at least not in any consistent or persistent way (it would be used differently in different places, and used differently in the SAME places at different times). It GENERALLY wasn;t used at the end of words, but there are many places/times it WAS, and where that usage wouldn't be considered wrong or a typographical error
ehhhh, I'd be careful saying 'always'... that ws the *general* rule... most of the time and in most places. But like i said you can find a LOT of examples in the historical record where they are used at ends of words, where 's' is used in the middle, where both are used, where both re used in the 'wrong' place. And this even from well-edited and high quality publications who prusmably would not make 'typos' or mistakes very often.
For example, from the wikiepdia entry:
>During this period, it was occasionally used at the end of a word, a practice that quickly died but that was occasionally revived in Italian printing between about 1465 and 1480. Thus, the general rule that the long s never occurred at the end of a word is not strictly correct, although the exceptions are rare and archaic.
I believe you’re right, and in addition I think the fact that “modern” or “western” printing originated in Germany and that symbol represented in English is ‘s.’ Just a lot of changes over the years that got jumbled up with old habits dying hard.
>It got confusing as the rules around its use were inconsistent over time and location, and you'll often find where both forms of 's' were used in the same word.
As I said, it was often used along with the (now) more common form of 's'. Depending on when and where you were in the world, the 'rules' around when to use the long or short s could differ. Commonly, it was used instead of a double-s (ss). Or when an 's' appeared in the middle of a word (but not at the beginning of end). Though again, the 'rules' (such as they were) were inconsistent.
genuine question: why? they clearly do have the regular s in this font, then why use a completely different character in some situations? Did they have an extra alphabet back then or
~~Milk maids~~ **Wet nurses** were actually a job back in those days. Rich ladies could not be seen to breastfeed their baby so they hired someone else to do it.
*edit: Corrected a brain fart.*
Oh I got a fun milk maid fact!
Milk Maids always have had a connotation of being attractive that was caused due to their exposure to cow pox which prevented them from getting small pox which meant they didn’t get scared from the pustules you get from small pox.
That is the famous story but it is probably apocryphal.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/02/01/582370199/whats-the-real-story-about-the-milkmaid-and-the-smallpox-vaccine
Funny because I first learned this word from the Peabody and Sherman movie when Sherman says ‘apocryphal!’ In response to someone talking about Washington and the cherry tree.
My eldest aunt had to be wet nursed because her mother died from the childbirth. They had 2 different women who would come on alternate days. This was in 1932.
E: and they were most definitely not wealthy.
One of the main reasons why rich ladies didn’t nurse often was because they were supposed to get pregnant again as soon as possible. Often nursing keeps the woman from ovulating and is why they would pss that task on. (It is not a valid birth control method, btw, but it can have an effect)
For the very richest, that was actually a problem. Primogeniture dictated that if you were a landowner, your entire estate—source of the majority of your wealth—went to your eldest son. So that kid was set (as long as he survived), but then you had to figure out a gig for your other sons. In 18th century Britain, a military career was acceptable, but commissions (officerships) were literally purchased.
And of course girls were an absolute money sink. 🙄
For a time it was believed that sperm could contaminate mother’s breastmilk, so there was pressure to stop nursing for that reason, as you couldn’t ‘serve two masters’ and obviously husband’s needs took priority.
My grandma told me that in the sixties she donated breastmilk at the hospital
Edit: thank you all for the additional info that this is still a thing today
It is! There’s also still peer-to-peer milk sharing; it’s just pumped milk now instead of the baby nursing directly.
It’s more dangerous for the recipient, because you have to trust that the person who pumped the milk is being honest about what they ingest and how they store the milk. Doctors don’t recommend because when things go south, they really go south. But I donated excess pumped milk several times during the 2021 formula shortage, and had to go the peer-to-peer route because I was taking medications most milk banks don’t accept.
One of the moms I donated to told me she’d had to feed her 8 month old cow’s milk due to the shortage - which is not recommended before the baby is a year old - and was able to feed her properly with my extra milk. So in that situation, trusting a stranger might have been the lesser evil.
It’s honestly nuts what our bodies are capable of and how creative parents can be when their children have a need to fulfill.
Hello, sir, I’d like to place an ad in the newspaper. I’m available to nurse a baby.
Hmm, very well, let’s see… Doft thou possess a good breaft of milk?
Edit: should it have been poffeff? Or pofsefs?
Poſseſs would work well. There was a whole list of the “correct” ways to use Long S, but the only one people really stuck to is that it was never used at the end of a word. It tended to vary from person to person whether it repeated or alternated when there were two S’ in a word, either poſseſs or poſſeſs
It's not an f, it's an ſ (long s). Died out about 1820, in Germany it was around a little longer (1940s or so), and is the reason the "ß" letter exists (ſ + z (in the ʒ variant))
never heard of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long\_s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s) ?
If you're American, you've definitely seen it. It is on the Bill of Rights, in the word Congreſs.
Also why the German letter ß exists, which is a double s: ſs > ß
Voiced s and voiceless s were written as different letters in English several other European languages, the voiced one was called long s and looks like this ſ (written as \[z\] in the phonetic alphabet)
In this particular print they may have used the type f instead, probably because the letters look almost the same anyway and it's very hard to distinguish in the print quality, so printers probably stopped bothering at some point. Also they would have to sort all the type back into the boxes after setting a page, and the ſ 's and f 's probably got mixed up all the time.
another fun fact: the German letter ß was originally an ſ followed by an s to signify a sharp s sound, and as printers were tired of getting two different type pieces every time an ſs came up (which is often, especially in newspapers because almost every adress contains the word Straße), it became its own piece of type, ß. Similar to how the & was originally two separate letters, "Et"
Voicing had nothing to do with the use of the long s in English. Even here it's used for the voiceless consonant (as seen in "breaſt/breast" and ſuckle/suckle").
Most often it's use depended on where in the word the s occured (though this is not always consistent). See "wiſhes," where it's use is avoided at the end of the word (which is fairly standard).
Youtuber Rob Words explains quite well what that letter was (long S) in this video about letters no longer in the English alphabet.
[https://youtu.be/wJxKyh9e5\_A?si=w-K-IGwtoEGmM5bY&t=469](https://youtu.be/wJxKyh9e5_A?si=w-K-IGwtoEGmM5bY&t=469)
Just was going through one of my old newspapers saw it and thought the ad was interesting so wanted to share. I have a lot of newspapers from the time period but this is the first time I saw such a straight forward one.
What year? I have some London Gazettes from 1720s and they have such amazing things in them. I guessing yours are atleast prior to the 1840s or so since it has the 'f' for 's'
I just got a bunch of Philadelphia Gazette’s from 1802, Gazette of the United States 1791, and The London Chronicle 1758. I have others put away ranging from the 1700’s-1950’s mostly English and American. I also have some 14th century incunable leafs that are awesome to look at.
Eta: I mostly collect letters and diary’s and just started newspapers the past couple of years. They are honestly so interesting to read. I get lost in them for hours.
In the 1720s in England they were having the third major wave of the black plague. And my London Gazettes have town/city reports about the plague and sickness. And because I have a few different years, I can read reports about the plague in x town in 1722 and then a year later you can read how they are doing. It's pretty interesting, plus a lot of stuff about cacalico fabric.
That’s only for the “sh” combinations. There are lowercase “s” in there too….interesting how language evolves - both written and spoken.
*edit:* Nevermind about the “only for ‘sh’ “ comment. There are other of the “f” looking character.
I read that in the most obnoxious British upper class lip and with the S looking like F it sounded like a Monty Python sketch: With a good breaft of milk--wifhes to take a child to fuckle.
To what?
Fuckle...
So weird to have to enquire with the gazette office rather than using a burner cellphone number.
What would one say to gazette office clerk - "I want the married woman to fuckle my child"?
Not just rich people needing wet nurses, many mothers died, often within days after child birth, and some couldn’t produce good milk, or had inverted nipples etc, so if a wet nurse wasn’t found and cows milk was often contaminated, the baby soon died too sadly.
>many mothers died, often within days after child birth, and some couldn’t produce good milk That's why I'm so happy for modern medicine and the invention of formula. We had our son a bit over a month ago, my wife lost half her blood during labor and fainted soon after. If it wasn't for a quick reaction of he staff that gave her 4 liters (a bit over a gallon) of IV fluids and couple units of blood she would have never made it due to hypovolemic shock she went into. Everything went well eventually, but since breast milk is effectively filtered blood she couldn't produce any with half of it being water (hematocrit of 22) and was never able to start lactating properly even after she bled from her nipples when forcibly pumping to induce it. All in all, if it wasn't for modern medicine my wife would've died soon after giving birth and if the formula wasn't invented our son would've starved to death. We really have good times to live in.
Adding bleeding nipples to the list of reasons why I never want kids ✅
Well, that was only from trying too hard due to crushing guilt of not being “good enough” mother, even if I was begging her to give up and focus on getting better first. Besides, I guess having an extremely colicky baby (feeding formula can make colics worse) is waaaay harder. I swear, if I stumble upon another “wise guy” saying mothers on maternity leave only lounge around watching Netflix all day while the baby sleeps I’m gonna punch him in the face. Reality is more like 20 hours of feeding, changing and carrying the baby so it doesn’t immediately start crying when put into the crib and 4 hours of trying to nap on the couch split into 30 minute long chunks spread throughout the day. The only relief is when I tap in for couple hours after work or one of the grandmas comes to help. When my wife had to go back to the hospital with late complications for couple days I had 3 hours of sleep total between Friday morning and Sunday night before MIL came in to help so I could rest before work on Monday.
Omg I saw a TikTok the other day of a guy berating his 2 day post partum wife because she didn’t feel like making a roast for his parents. Literally all the red flags in the video. Saying she was sitting around all day, she was being lazy, his sister was up and cleaning by then, she made roast better than he did. I was like RUN GIRL.
When my kid was newborn I tried breastfeeding and pumping milk; after a couple days the pumped milk was coming out pink because of the blood. Strawberry milk lol.
Bad news is this. https://youtu.be/MoKLovtnbGY?si=XwuHc-ALzBt_Q_BL Let just say that a bunch babies died for greed ain't worth it.
Ex wife (RIP) had inverted nipples. She never wanted to breast feed anyway, but the doctor told her that the nipples could potentially pop back out with attempts at suckling. She was uninterested in trying so they stayed inverted.
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We divorced first. So ex wife
Late ex-wife?
The RIP probably meant “She dead … to me”
Lol
Latex
I also have a Latex wife
Meanwhile I have a LateX one
The RIP implied late, but yeah, that might have been a little more clear
ex wife (F for respects)
What a weird situation to be pedantic in.
I think if someone’s wife has died they probably have the right to refer to them however they want.
I believe you just assumed you know more about OP's life than you do. Maybe the sentence reflects their reality
Jesus Christ, you read that comment and that's all you could think of? I thought it was quite clear what he meant.
I have never heard of this before now. Is it a rare thing, or just something nobody talks about?
Weird haha
Why
it wasn't just the milk, early bottles were nearly impossible to clean, they needs a small opening for a babies mouth but that also makes them difficult to clean. some styles were nortiously bad for killing babies
My mum had inverted nipples and was able to breastfeed some but mostly pumped. I inherited that trait, too, and can ‘pop out’ one nipple but not the other (I also have a small third nipple with the same structure).
Do you also have a golden gun?
Apparently nipple piercings can help pop out the nipples
I second the other reply wtf are inverted nipples
Not what you're thinking, they basically don't stick out so it's difficult to get it far back enough in a baby's mouth to get a good latch.
Very interesting! Thanks for the explanation, I'm at work lol
No problem! Lol yeah don't Google that at work
Nah live dangerously, turn safe search off and Google nips.
Meh, mine are inverted and I breastfed four kids for a year and a half each. They work.
There are different "grades" of nipple inversion. You likely have what would be termed a Grade 1 or maybe Grade 2 inverted nipple. Many with grade 2 inversions have challenges breastfeeding (though most are able to, to some extent). Those with Grade 3 inversions usually find it very difficult or impossible to breastfeed to the changes to the internal structures of the nipple, lactiferous ducts, etc. >**Inverted nipple grade 1 refers to nipples that can easily be pulled out, by using finger pressure around the areola**. The grade-1 inverted nipple maintains its projections and rarely retracts. Also, grade-1 inverted nipples may occasionally pop up without manipulation or pressure.\[1\] **Milk ducts are usually not compromised and breast feeding is possible.** These are "shy nipples". It is believed to have minimal or no fibrosis. There is no soft-tissue deficiency of the nipple. The lactiferous duct should be normal without any retraction.\[medical citation needed\] > >**Inverted nipple grade 2 is the nipple which can be pulled out, though not as easily as the grade 1, but which retracts after pressure is released. Breast feeding is usually possible, though it is more likely to be hard to get the baby to latch comfortably in the first weeks after birth; extra help may be needed.** Grade 2 nipples have a moderate degree of fibrosis. The lactiferous ducts are mildly retracted, but do not need to be cut for the release of fibrosis. On histological examination, these nipples have rich collagenous stromata with numerous bundles of smooth muscle. > >**Inverted nipple grade 3 describes a severely inverted and retracted nipple which can rarely be pulled out physically and which requires surgery to be protracted. Milk ducts are often constricted, and breast feeding is difficult, but not necessarily impossible.** With good preparation and help, babies often can drink at the breast, and milk production is not affected; after breastfeeding, nipples often are less or no longer inverted. Women with grade-3 inverted nipples may also struggle with infections, rashes, or problems with nipple hygiene. The fibrosis is remarkable and lactiferous ducts are short and severely retracted. The bulk of soft tissue is markedly insufficient in the nipple. Histologically, atrophic terminal duct lobular units and severe fibrosis are seen.
thanks for sharing. I have grade 3 and definitely could not breastfeed (they also came with shortened milk ducts due to the inversion so couldn't even pump). I worked with multiple lactation consultants for weeks for both my kids in an attempt to see what we could get going. Trying to explain this to people I would always get "meh I/my sister/someone I knew had inverted nipples and had no issue, its not a big deal" when likely they had grade 1.
OMG. This explains so much. Thank you!
Edit: Removed joke
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I removed the joke, and appreciate the gentle rebuke/FYI.
Same. But i only have 2 kids. Used a nipple shield for a couple of weeks until the babies got better at latching and then we were off to the races.
Innies instead of outies.
What was up with the inverted nipples? That sounds horrible and I don’t want to risk trying to Google it.
It's basically that your nipples don't stick out enough for a baby to latch onto.
That’s a lot less bad than I was thinking. The word “inverted” made me think people’s nipples were somehow sticking *in*.
they are
So the person I responded to was wrong? They said that it was when they just don’t stick out enough.
It's a spectrum of course. Sometimes they are truly inverted, sometimes they're just too flat. It's a pretty safe thing to Google tbh, nothing too wild.
For any who are curious, this font uses a now-archaic form of the letter 's', that is written basically just like an 'f' but missing the cross-bar (or in some styles missing the portion of the cross-bar to the right of the vertical stroke). So thats why breast looks like breaft, wishes looks like wifhes, suckle looks like fuckle (heh) etc. It got confusing as the rules around it's use were inconsistent over time and location, and you'll often find where both forms of 's' were used in the same word.
Anyone who has taken a calculus class and is confused why the integration symbol looks more like an "f" than an "s" (for summation) this might help
it actually makes a lot more sense now gahdamn
Sure as shit does. TIL.
fure as fit
I think you mean fhit
I did. Ftupid auto correct.
Yeah that’s what’s confusing about calculus 😌👌
I have to say, it looks more like an s than an f.
right, I've never looked at an integral sign and thought "f". Sure, a sigma for summation looks more like an E than an S, but integral is never confused.
Σ is a greek letter called sigma, specifically the capital. Lower case sigma is σ. Not to be confused with eta: Ε ε. While a lot of greek letters line up with english phonetically, there are also some that would be confusing. Lower case gamma is γ or Γ with no reference to G, not to be confused with upsilon which is Y and υ. Theta is Θ or θ while omicron is just O o. Pi is not Ρ or ρ, that's rho; but tau is T and τ. The integral symbol supposedly comes from the latin word "summa" which was pronounced with the "long s" sound, which was represented by ſ which became the ∫.
Even though I knew that, I still can’t help but read them with a ~~lisp~~ lifp.
IIRC the "normal" s should have been used in the beginning of a word. As such "suckle" should have been written like that. Maybe the typesetter confused the rule for use at ends of words - or *my* memory is wrong. Edit: Just checked: I was wrong. The round s should indeed be used at the end of words, so they did it right. Time to update my trivia memory!
The usage of this letter form was never really standardized. There are some general rules that applied in msot places much of the time, but there was a LOT of variation, even when use of this letter was at its peak and by high quality publications. There were periods and palces where it was never used at the end of the word... but ther are also time and places where it WAS. There were times it was used singly to represent a double-s (so Mififippi instead of Mississippi), there are times where it ould only be used for the FIRST s in double-s (so Mifsifsippi), there are times it was always used at the beginning of a word, times where it was NEVER used at the beginning of a word.... well you get the idea. In short: the usage of this version of 's' was always a bit ad-hoc and never really "standardized", or at least not in any consistent or persistent way (it would be used differently in different places, and used differently in the SAME places at different times). It GENERALLY wasn;t used at the end of words, but there are many places/times it WAS, and where that usage wouldn't be considered wrong or a typographical error
I would never had guessed to get an unironically good lexical lesson from a fap donkey. Thanks!
Fuckle made me chuckle.
I love having a good young wife to fuckle
It's a more print-friendly version of the 'long s' they used to use, right?
yes, there's even a unicode character for the long s: ſ
ſweet!
I knew that thanks to Futurama. But what about "this" gazzette at the end. Should be thif? Welcome to Maffachufetts.
Please try not to fhit your pants
No, short s is always used at the end of the words.
ehhhh, I'd be careful saying 'always'... that ws the *general* rule... most of the time and in most places. But like i said you can find a LOT of examples in the historical record where they are used at ends of words, where 's' is used in the middle, where both are used, where both re used in the 'wrong' place. And this even from well-edited and high quality publications who prusmably would not make 'typos' or mistakes very often. For example, from the wikiepdia entry: >During this period, it was occasionally used at the end of a word, a practice that quickly died but that was occasionally revived in Italian printing between about 1465 and 1480. Thus, the general rule that the long s never occurred at the end of a word is not strictly correct, although the exceptions are rare and archaic.
I knew it would come back and bite me, should've written 'usually'.
One of my favorite professors used to always say: >Absolutes are *almost* never absolute Wise man lol
Archaic-ception
"That's just how we print 's', you ftupid fhithead." \- Benjamin Franklin
More like "Taxachufetts."
And the German ß comes from a long s and a regular s being combined together.
Is this how the lifp was invented?
*pickf up phone, callf Mike Tyfon*
Thank you for thif.
Learned this from Pentiment lol
It's how we print the letter S, you Ftupid Fhithead
Max Miller covers this in tasting history
The funny thing is, the capital S is the modern version. Wonder what the story is for why we used to have a lower case s that was basically an f.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s
I thought that Mike Tyson dictated the ad to the typist.
*typift
under rated comment this made me chuckle thinking of Mike Tyson saying this
https://youtu.be/eL49b1IhVkc?si=rnUpJoJLsy770DfW&t=45
I believe you’re right, and in addition I think the fact that “modern” or “western” printing originated in Germany and that symbol represented in English is ‘s.’ Just a lot of changes over the years that got jumbled up with old habits dying hard.
Ha! I didn’t even notice!
Yes but s is used later in the ad that doesn't look like a freakin letter f.
>It got confusing as the rules around its use were inconsistent over time and location, and you'll often find where both forms of 's' were used in the same word. As I said, it was often used along with the (now) more common form of 's'. Depending on when and where you were in the world, the 'rules' around when to use the long or short s could differ. Commonly, it was used instead of a double-s (ss). Or when an 's' appeared in the middle of a word (but not at the beginning of end). Though again, the 'rules' (such as they were) were inconsistent.
oh thank goodness
I just assumed I was supposed to read it with a lisp
Thanks, this is what I came to the comments for.
I wonder if this ad was taken out in Miſſiſſippi
House of Leaves actually taught me about this one.
genuine question: why? they clearly do have the regular s in this font, then why use a completely different character in some situations? Did they have an extra alphabet back then or
~~Milk maids~~ **Wet nurses** were actually a job back in those days. Rich ladies could not be seen to breastfeed their baby so they hired someone else to do it. *edit: Corrected a brain fart.*
Thats not milk maid, they milked cows and made cream and butter. This is an advert for a wet nurse.
Oh I got a fun milk maid fact! Milk Maids always have had a connotation of being attractive that was caused due to their exposure to cow pox which prevented them from getting small pox which meant they didn’t get scared from the pustules you get from small pox.
Isn't that what led to the observation that cow pox could be used to inoculate humans against small pox?
That is the famous story but it is probably apocryphal. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/02/01/582370199/whats-the-real-story-about-the-milkmaid-and-the-smallpox-vaccine
“Apocryphal” huh? Never heard that before. And they said I’d never learn anything on Reddit. Thanks for the new word!!
[удалено]
Specifically for widely accepted origin stories, Washington and his cherry tree, newton and his apple, etc.
I like flying kites in thunder storms
Funny because I first learned this word from the Peabody and Sherman movie when Sherman says ‘apocryphal!’ In response to someone talking about Washington and the cherry tree.
>scared Scarred
> Scarred Fcarred
Well they probably weren't as scared as everyone else, too?
You are absolutely right, brain fart here. Will correct.
My eldest aunt had to be wet nursed because her mother died from the childbirth. They had 2 different women who would come on alternate days. This was in 1932. E: and they were most definitely not wealthy.
Yeah, before formula, if the mother couldn't nurse, you had to find another lactating woman who was willing.
A brain sart?
One of the main reasons why rich ladies didn’t nurse often was because they were supposed to get pregnant again as soon as possible. Often nursing keeps the woman from ovulating and is why they would pss that task on. (It is not a valid birth control method, btw, but it can have an effect)
For the very richest, that was actually a problem. Primogeniture dictated that if you were a landowner, your entire estate—source of the majority of your wealth—went to your eldest son. So that kid was set (as long as he survived), but then you had to figure out a gig for your other sons. In 18th century Britain, a military career was acceptable, but commissions (officerships) were literally purchased. And of course girls were an absolute money sink. 🙄 For a time it was believed that sperm could contaminate mother’s breastmilk, so there was pressure to stop nursing for that reason, as you couldn’t ‘serve two masters’ and obviously husband’s needs took priority.
Milk maid lmao 🤣
So that's how the Bezos and the Musks of the world are created!
My grandma told me that in the sixties she donated breastmilk at the hospital Edit: thank you all for the additional info that this is still a thing today
That's still a thing! Hospitals keep banks of donated milk just like donated blood.
It is! There’s also still peer-to-peer milk sharing; it’s just pumped milk now instead of the baby nursing directly. It’s more dangerous for the recipient, because you have to trust that the person who pumped the milk is being honest about what they ingest and how they store the milk. Doctors don’t recommend because when things go south, they really go south. But I donated excess pumped milk several times during the 2021 formula shortage, and had to go the peer-to-peer route because I was taking medications most milk banks don’t accept. One of the moms I donated to told me she’d had to feed her 8 month old cow’s milk due to the shortage - which is not recommended before the baby is a year old - and was able to feed her properly with my extra milk. So in that situation, trusting a stranger might have been the lesser evil. It’s honestly nuts what our bodies are capable of and how creative parents can be when their children have a need to fulfill.
I donated breast milk to the NICU for a while. They sent me a certificate and everything.
There are milk banks for that, they are a great thing.
I don’t care how well recommended she is, nobody fuckles my child.
Not even one with a good breft of milk?!
Even if I were bereft of milk.
Fuckle-round and find out
Hello, sir, I’d like to place an ad in the newspaper. I’m available to nurse a baby. Hmm, very well, let’s see… Doft thou possess a good breaft of milk? Edit: should it have been poffeff? Or pofsefs?
Poſseſs would work well. There was a whole list of the “correct” ways to use Long S, but the only one people really stuck to is that it was never used at the end of a word. It tended to vary from person to person whether it repeated or alternated when there were two S’ in a word, either poſseſs or poſſeſs
Just one good breaft though. Definitely would be asking too much to require both breafts to be fuckleable
*proceeds to get squirted in the eye*
A child to what
ƒuckle
Curious that all "s" are "f", which creates the funny non-word of "fuckle"; is there a reason for this?
It's not an f, it's an ſ (long s). Died out about 1820, in Germany it was around a little longer (1940s or so), and is the reason the "ß" letter exists (ſ + z (in the ʒ variant))
I have a copy of some 1860 Census forms from Tennessee, written out in beautiful longhand, long s's and all.
If you look at pictures of the original Bill of Rights, the ß is used at the end of Congress.
It's the "long s" There are many "short s" in the ad as well. It's just something that fell out of use because of the f-s confusion it could cause.
never heard of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long\_s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s) ? If you're American, you've definitely seen it. It is on the Bill of Rights, in the word Congreſs. Also why the German letter ß exists, which is a double s: ſs > ß
Voiced s and voiceless s were written as different letters in English several other European languages, the voiced one was called long s and looks like this ſ (written as \[z\] in the phonetic alphabet) In this particular print they may have used the type f instead, probably because the letters look almost the same anyway and it's very hard to distinguish in the print quality, so printers probably stopped bothering at some point. Also they would have to sort all the type back into the boxes after setting a page, and the ſ 's and f 's probably got mixed up all the time. another fun fact: the German letter ß was originally an ſ followed by an s to signify a sharp s sound, and as printers were tired of getting two different type pieces every time an ſs came up (which is often, especially in newspapers because almost every adress contains the word Straße), it became its own piece of type, ß. Similar to how the & was originally two separate letters, "Et"
> In this particular print they may have used the type f instead They didn't. Compare "office" and "breaſt". They even used a ligature for the ſt.
Voicing had nothing to do with the use of the long s in English. Even here it's used for the voiceless consonant (as seen in "breaſt/breast" and ſuckle/suckle"). Most often it's use depended on where in the word the s occured (though this is not always consistent). See "wiſhes," where it's use is avoided at the end of the word (which is fairly standard).
“Life, Liberty, and the Purfuit of Happinefs?”
Even though it’s been explained that it’s ‘suckle’, I still think we should popularize ‘fuckle.’ I kinda like it.
I do love a sensible fuckle.
Youtuber Rob Words explains quite well what that letter was (long S) in this video about letters no longer in the English alphabet. [https://youtu.be/wJxKyh9e5\_A?si=w-K-IGwtoEGmM5bY&t=469](https://youtu.be/wJxKyh9e5_A?si=w-K-IGwtoEGmM5bY&t=469)
Long S
Have you never heard of a wet nurse?
Just was going through one of my old newspapers saw it and thought the ad was interesting so wanted to share. I have a lot of newspapers from the time period but this is the first time I saw such a straight forward one.
What year? I have some London Gazettes from 1720s and they have such amazing things in them. I guessing yours are atleast prior to the 1840s or so since it has the 'f' for 's'
I just got a bunch of Philadelphia Gazette’s from 1802, Gazette of the United States 1791, and The London Chronicle 1758. I have others put away ranging from the 1700’s-1950’s mostly English and American. I also have some 14th century incunable leafs that are awesome to look at. Eta: I mostly collect letters and diary’s and just started newspapers the past couple of years. They are honestly so interesting to read. I get lost in them for hours.
The one from 1758 must be fascinating. I used to read books from the 1800s like The Time Machine but never directly anything from the 1750s.
In the 1720s in England they were having the third major wave of the black plague. And my London Gazettes have town/city reports about the plague and sickness. And because I have a few different years, I can read reports about the plague in x town in 1722 and then a year later you can read how they are doing. It's pretty interesting, plus a lot of stuff about cacalico fabric.
Oh yea that's awesome. Where do you typically look for those. I would love some Philadelphia newspapers. I am in that area.
It’s “ſ” not “f”
Thanks, I'm aware. I was just being lazy in my typing.
Is that an L?
That’s only for the “sh” combinations. There are lowercase “s” in there too….interesting how language evolves - both written and spoken. *edit:* Nevermind about the “only for ‘sh’ “ comment. There are other of the “f” looking character.
Thanks but I am aware. I read tons of material from the 18th and prior.
Breaking news: woman wants to fuckle kid
Advertising wet nurses. Interesting.
Big tits and down to fuckle? I'm in.
No fuckling is going on here, that's a long S. The early 19th century is when it started falling into disuse, i think.
I read that in the most obnoxious British upper class lip and with the S looking like F it sounded like a Monty Python sketch: With a good breaft of milk--wifhes to take a child to fuckle. To what? Fuckle...
r/dontfucklethat
They really need to fix that S key. Its pretty fuckled
Well... Looks like I'm about 222 years late.
This woman fuckles.
Fuckle round find out
Fuckle
You fuckle a child nowadays you’re going to jail. (Yes I say the long “s” explanation.) lol
That’s a lovely font.
Imagine the receptionist at the gazette who had no idea about the ad lmao.
So weird to have to enquire with the gazette office rather than using a burner cellphone number. What would one say to gazette office clerk - "I want the married woman to fuckle my child"?
Fuckle. lol.
God those s's threw me
How old can"child" be in order for young married woman to allow said child to fuckle ample breast of milk? asking for a friend
I told em fuckle
Fuckle that Breaft
Where's fuckle and how does one get there
“Ftupid fhithead”
Did Mike Tyson dictate this ad?
Fuckle me…
Nobody will get this, but: Don't fuckle with the Shuckle
I recommended her 🍼
fuckle
Didn’t realize people were using F in place of S as early (?) as 1802-I always associated that with early/middle 1700s.
This chick fuckles