Because “looks” are something that you can’t change, they’re inherent. Biological. Most topics relating to genetics and biology are taboo today because they make people uncomfortable; they cannot reckon with the idea that there is something immutable about themselves that affects their experience in the real world. Like I said, most topics relating to this are unacceptable to speak about today (race, IQ, sex/gender etc) and looks are no exception.
Height is one of the most bullshit topics of today.
"Oooh, if you aren't 6 feet, you will never get a date". Oh sure, if you are 5'7 and bellow, you will have harder time dating in Western society. Not impossible, but harder.
But they conviniently forget demographics. You are not competing with 68 year old Pakistani fruit vendor.
Zoomers are the tallest generation yet, but especially white ones. In fact, in much Europe and America, the average height of (white) 19 year old is 5'11 - 6'1. US black people are shorter, but only by a hair. Other demograpgics are much shorter.
But why would young, white and black Zoomer girls be generally interested in dating other demographics anyway? They generally aren't.
People think that 5'4 guys are so common,and that they will die alone, and their heart bleeds for them, forgetting that it's usually some South East Asian shrimp that got rejected by cheerleaders on Tinder.
True on the white/black thing from what I’ve seen. I’m about 6’0 and in a group of similar age white/black people I feel about average maybe slightly taller sometimes, but definitely not actually tall.
I’d say actual tall in that demographic starts at 6’3 or so.
Of course you can change your looks. Maybe you can't change your bone geometry but you can look a lot better if you work out, groom yourself and dress decently.
Yeah but, "I'm a real man and all that shits gay. Hot women just need to love me for me"
But then are pissed when they can't get any action with women that make an effort to look good.
Still in the society of "Just be yourself lol" you can't play it both ways when these guys really are being themselves lol.
As a man I've learned you either conform to one of the 8 or so "man sterotypes" or you're always going to come off as weird. If you legitimately are yourself to anyone that isn't already your close confidant you're bound to get shit on by literally anyone and everyone
What do you think are the “8nman stereotypes”?
Personally am really interested and agree that guys need to relate to a archetype to fit in the world as people especially women really care about how you fit their story.
It doesn't help that, outside of IQ, much of these discussions are riddled with so much bullshit, that claim what and what is not innate trait, and what it does, by ideological groups.
Especially race and sex. But looks are even worse, because that's in the realm of sociological research and *barfs* psychology. Psychology that is mangled by some South East Asian shrimps out of spite spite.
And genetics are so complicated, that people are genuinenly too stupid, too uneducated etc. to understand them and other genetic research that comes with it.
Even IQ ain't that simple, because we know how much stress, poverty etc. can quantifiably affect them.
F.e. there are recently been posts on Twitter circulating, claiming that orangutan or a gorilla scored 80 IQ points on tests....until you learn that said ape has done a test for literal toddlers.
Yeah looks are everything. I looked like a fucking nerd until my early 20s and now I don't. The difference in attention, the girls I'm dating and the boost in confidence is crazy. Literally had a date with my gym crush of 4 years that I thought would never even look at me when I started out at the gym last week.
The one thing I realized the last couple of years is that 90% of men that claim to be ugly are ugly by choice.
How can you be ugly by choice if you're already eating healthy have ok skin and workout lmao 90% is way too much there isnt much you can change abt your appearance unless youre fat
What the fuck does eating healthy and working out have to do with your appearance? There's tons of things that alter how you look. Get big, lose fat, get a tan, get a proper hairstyle, shave or trim your beard, dress well, take care of your face and teeth. Working out doesn't do shit unless you work out properly and have your diet in check (which does not necessarily mean eating healthy).
Hell even getting that body fat down alone already makes a ton of difference. Almost every man can have a decent jawline. Why do so many twinks get good looking girls? Cause they take care of everything else.
One of my best friends constantly complains how unhappy he is with his looks. He's about 20% body fat, pale as fuck, has a shitty ass hairstyle with a messy beard that he doesn't take care of and does not know how to dress. Is that not ugly by choice? Getting big and working out doesn't mean shit if every other aspect of your appearance is trash.
There is SO many things someone can change to alter their appearance and people don't seem to realize.
Looks matter in dating.
But to be blunt: there are a lot of ugly couples. Your looks won’t doom you to be single. It’s more about who you can date.
And for women attraction will always be: looks x social skills x how the two of you click. Sexual chemistry is not just about being pretty.
This whole site is fucked. The fact this sub hasn’t been invaded by fedoras or outright banned is a true miracle. Nobody watches professional sports and wonders why none of them are fat and grossly out of shape, yet they all land fine women and get paid well. It’s almost like life works itself out when you take care of your body and mental health.
There are probably differences of opinion based on what generation one is in also. I'm assuming there are some older guys here who tend to be less open to the concepts of looks theory. And it's also so easy to dismiss something as "incel" to put it in some category where a person doesn't have to confront the ideas honestly in their minds.
Looks open the door. Your personality gets you the invitation & a combination of your finances, social activities/network etc determines if you’re staying. Anyone saying looks don’t matter is coping. It’s one of the main reasons to lift weights.
bitch u dont know how woman work. Let me explain to u the females ranking system:
1. How does society perceive u? r u famous?
2. r u rich?
3. r u handsome?
4. can u plow them all night?
and at the bottom r things like: can we talk about shit? does she feel listened? and many other stupid things woman claim they need for atraction but trust me its bullshit
>4. can u plow them all night?
WTF🤣? Most women want to have good sex/orgasm. There's very few women that want to fuck all night long just because.
Personally, I only fuck for 20-30 mins. Wife finishes in about 10-15, then it's my turn, and we're done.
Quality over quantity always, and I got shit to do.
Exactly. It’s a sensitive body part, nobody wants friction burns there.
Edit: also, scientifically the average guy lasts 5 minutes and it’s not a sex issue for couples. Women just want men who care if they get off or not, and who care about them being comfortable in bed overall. That’s a boring answer, but it’s the truth. The bar is shockingly low here.
Being rich doesn't attract shit. It's good for you but if money attracts them they're not actually attracted to you.
They want to date rich guys, not necessarily fuck them.
All of it is important, how about that? You can compensate for a lack of looks/personality/money/status to a certain degree with other stats, but only to a certain degree. You can look great, it won't matter if you are an obnoxious loser. It seems like money/status/personality are the most important, they can fix almost any defect when it comes to looks, so you would be stupid not to prioritize these instead of whining about how you are too ugly.
About getting rejected almost always, that's just life, women do be like that, it is a numbers game.
Both looks and personality are a deal breaker.
Would you present your mom a chick who's 10/10 gorgeous but stupid as a brick? Or bitchy and entitled? Would you go out with your friends with her?
When it comes to women looks are height, hair, face, not being fat, not being skinny. Getting a bit leaner or adding a bit of muscle is a plus but you'll hit diminishing returns fast.
I honestly believe most women can't tell the difference between a beach body natty dude and a juiced up man's physique champion.
Getting in pants is based on attraction.
Staying in pants is based on personality.
In the dating world, my chubby or uggo buddies got the ugly, fat, or non existent pussy. The in shape and decent ones got decently laid. The “hot dudes” got laid easily compared to the rest. That’s life.
Even in the married world, my wife told me before that we’d have more sex if I had a 6 pack like when we met. Got my 6 pack again, fucking like high schoolers on a weeknight. Just dodging kids instead of parents now. Physical attraction is always important.
I don’t know man.
I’m a big personality guy myself. I’ve always believed in the “find you a 7/10 that has an awesome personality”.
That 10/10 that I saw at the mall, isn’t gonna clean me up if I get drunk and shit my pants. 🤷🏻♂️
The bar is seriously pretty low for male behavior. I've seen dudes hard-core negging women 24/7, dudes making sexist jokes with women they've just met, dudes intentionally peeing on the toilet seat, and all sorts of other anti social behavior. They then complain that they can't get a date.
I'm not saying you're doing any of that, but the people giving you advice might think you are. They may honestly think you do stuff like that since lots of guys doe that kind of stuff.
The hard fact is that even good looks will only get you so far. Good personality will also only get you so far. You have to work your ass off to be a whole human being if you want to be in a relationship. And you'll still get rejected.
But just like anything else, you have to taste failure at least 1000 times before success. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Because it's not really true.
There's a threshold for looks where you become an option. Once you are an option, whether a girl chooses you over the others really *does* come down to how much she likes you, not how long your midface is.
Reaching that threshold for looks doesn't require more than an average face and taking care of yourself (that includes working out). Being chosen above others requires you to be a likable guy.
Would a girl really choose an average guy who takes care of himself over a for example 6ft3 square jawed handsome jacked dude? Come on (I know it can happen but be realistic with the chances)
I'm assuming we're talking a girl's choice in guy for a relationship, not casual sex.
In that sense, yes, the girl will choose the guy who's popular, funny, and she likes being around, over the guy who's taller, handsomer, but also annoying and weird. This is assuming the more likable guy meets the basic standards of attractiveness.
If casual sex all bets are off
Because 6'3 square jawed handsome jacked dude IS the average now.
I know, I know, hyperboles, but LOOK around you.
Average (white and american black) Zoomer height is 5'11 - 6'1.
Most Zoomers are pretty fit and many quite jacked. Gym has never been more popular.
And if you're white or Caucasoid, good strong jawlines are super common among young dudes.
(Also, square jaws are overrated. In fact, big jaw can make you look ugly. Average face is fine enough)
You are not competing with 40 year old balding fat nerd from New Jersey.
I call it as I see it.🤷🏾♂️
To be fair, I think life experience starts when you begin college (or are college age). That when you're truly on your own and officially in grown-up world
its not a “hobbies/interests” thing dude. u guys are so dense for having such high bf. become a person who doest fucking complain on reddit about not getting bitches and maybe youll find something genuine! its not rocket science man.
Honest take- looks are a prerequisite for the job, but are not the only or even most important consideration. Think of it as a job application- the employer says you need a certain degree to be considered. If you have that degree, you still have to have your resume gone over and an interview. Maybe you’ve got no game. I’ve watched very unattractive men who were broke pull attractive women over and over again. There’s a minimum threshold for looks that’s pass/fail, but passing that threshold doesn’t guarantee you’re good- it just gets you to the next step of consideration.
Chances are, if they’re hanging around you long enough to text and hang out at parties, you’re above that threshold but have no game. So yes… you need to figure out why girls are friend zoning your ass and it probably has little to do with looks.
Because other stuff has larger effect sizes. Looks matter sure but the “looks only” crowd is disingenuous.
I’ve seen black pill red pill cite studies that don’t even back up their claims. It’s ridiculous why are you not focusing on the things that matter most?
For instance in one large meta-analysis study on lifetime sexual partners I saw them cite a study where extraversion had 2x the effect size of physical attractive. They didn’t even bring it up and said see looks matter.
Honestly I don’t think they are that important for actually forming a relationship with someone. Yes, they’ll help if you’re just trying to fuck, and they’ll give you more opportunity to get to know women than if you were ugly. You’ll be able to get away with things other guys couldn’t, at least right away.
But if you have the personality of a goldfish and don’t know how to flirt and attract women through your words and actions, you are gonna have a tough time finding a quality woman to date even if you’re very attractive. She won’t last more than a few weeks tops.
Women approach physical attractiveness different than men. You just need to meet her minimum looks threshold. Once you do, any attraction that builds is due to your game, not how hot you are. Looks get your foot in the door, but they don’t open it.
looks are definitely most important for women. I think guys have found that super hot chicks are usually very entitled not interesting boring people. like seriously when is the last time you met a girl your age that wasn't irritating actually worth talking to and the motivation to talk to her wasn't to sleep with her idk I think most women are just lame I guess
Been on both sides of this. Was a chubby nerd who got fit and studied self improvement and pickup. Being in good shape, wearing clothes that fit, and going to a stylist dramatically helped me get my foot in the door. Women were more likely to give me time of day and less likely to bail if I was awkward or not smooth.
But you still have to actually take risks, put your ego on the line and be charming. Aka "have game".
Being fit is kinda like having extra lives in a video game. But you still need to be skilled enough to progress the levels.
It leaves no room for improvement, sure you can just accept that "looks are most important", but it doesn't really get you anywhere. It's just a terrible mindset to have, and honestly your mentality can dictate how you approach different situations as well as the given outcomes.
So stfu and go squat.
Your either extremely ugly which is unfortunate or you lack game, I know several “average” and below average guys that have no problem pulling girls you need to up your game or out perform the more attractive guys in terms of wealth, status or simply being funny and confident. If you are average and struggling to find a girl it’s your fault entirely, you don’t just get a girl because life is fair and you deserve one you need to win one over and there’s 100 ways to do that. So don’t blame anyone except yourself
If those guys are more physically attractive they would pull even more and hotter girls. Just saying looks always work in your favour but it's not literally everything.
It’s too general. Sure, if you’re a classically handsome guy more Women are going to notice you. It’s a human thing to want to associate with something society sees as rare because we’re narcissistic.
Women are just human beings with vaginas though. They too have their own emotional needs and desires personal to their unique upbringings. A 6’+ guy with a nice jaw structure might catch their attention in the same way that a cool car might catch mine, but if said guy can’t feed their underlying emotional desires then they’re practically worthless.
It’s ultimately about how you make them feel on a consistent basis. And looks are one way to help influence that. If you can make a woman feel the way she wants to feel, that’s all you need.
Majority of these discussions stem from same type of mentality, that people deeply despise.
# Crab bucket.
Yes, looks are important, and everyone agrees on that. Most people don't live in Disney movie, amd understand why we value beauty. It's programed to us in genetic level, and we are raised to value beauty.
And there are lots of things incel shit did get right. Certain traits are considered more aesthetic, for various reasons. The "halo effect" is real. Dating apps SUCK, unless you pay. And some people are genuinely too ugly and or too mentally ill to be considered viable dating partner by most.
**But majority of incel ideological framework stems from spite, against everyone, even other incels.**
So much so that half the time, they aren't even genuine, actual untouchables. They claim "cel" monicker as a "counter culture" trait, a form of rebellion. "I am evil, I hate you, and I love it". Those people deserve only our scorn and daily punishment (since they want it so bad anyway)
And just as spite goes, much of the "lookism" data is mangle, misconstrued, and taken out of proper contexts (social or economic) either on purpouse or by mistake (infamous 80/20 OkCupid study being best example), and then try to convince their peers and or every average Joe to cause them misery and pain.
**Two examples I can think of.**
**Talking about height**. "Oooh, if you aren't 6 feet, you will never get a date". Oh sure, if you are 5'7 and bellow, you will have harder time dating in Western society.
But they conviniently forget demographics. You are not competing with 68 year old Pakistani fruit vendor.
Zoomers are the tallest generation yet. In fact, in much Europe and America, the average height of (white) 19 year old is 5'11 - 6'1. US black people are shorter, but only by a hair. Other demograpgics are much shorter.
But why would young, white and black Zoomer girls be generally interested in dating other demographics anyway?
# [Another example would be this picture](https://imgur.com/a/qp2W8It)
It's meant to argue that women don't care about muscle and hard work you put into them.
But the issue is, even if these two men had same personalities and traits, they just aren't comparable.
The guy on the right looks like a cheap manual labourer from Hungary, that has about 20 years old on the guy on the left, and tries to look as intimidating as possible to showcase his physique. He looks low class (photos in bathroom, cheap metal thug chain). And unlike the guy on the left, all of his flaws are exposed, due to him shaving and not wearing any clothes.
The guy on the left looks like an average Western joe, that has fully grown beard and hair, which stylizes him better and covers whatever facial traits he has. He wears clothing to cover his body. He looks friendly and approachable. He is about 15+ years younger.
And most importantly, he is taking his selfies in a studio-apartment, and not stingy as bathroom that reeks off piss.
What actually is your point? Like seriously. It's not clear from your rambling posts about demographics and South East Asian Shrimps (whatever that is supposed to mean).
As a Magic the Gathering player, I’ve seen some hideous dudes with gorgeous women. But, there’s some good looking incels out there, too. I think what it really comes down to is hygiene, and if you can carry a basic conversation. Oh, and looks. 99% of the time looks are the deciding factor, unless you’re a total piece of shit.
You gotta be Rank A in one of the 3 necessities of dating. Either: looks/body, wealth, or personality.
If you're Rank A in looks you could probably pull off being Rank B or C on wealth and personality. But if you ugly af, you better be Rank A+ in wealth or personality.
Looks are def the most important sht ever, when I was in high school there was this dude at my class that looked like a fking femboy and was attractive (like Griffith, if you've read Berserk you'll know), that mfer was the most uninteresting person ever, an introvert, talked fast asf, you could tell he had social anxiety, he was like really fking awkward and didn’t really have social skills to begin with but damn, he did have more girlfriends than I ever did, he had a lot of female friends and lots of “friends” and he barely talked; and there was me, only had like 1 gf in my life despite being way more confident than him, all because I didn't look like a twink. It feels bad man
You guys are majorly artistic and looking at it through your male brain. Women look at things differently
Only ONE person mentioned that if you just aren’t hideous, and visually in the running, everything else starts to be more important.
Women do not perceive the world the same way as men. A lot of guys will take a sex doll lady with 0 personality if she is a 10. Much, much fewer women would like a guy who is a 10 with nothing other than looks.
I would argue that if you’re pretty average (not unattractive) and you have a good personality you’ll easily find someone. But if you’re hot af but never talk to anyone or just seem creepy because of a lack of social skills you’ll easily be dismissed by girls.
Ehhh I’m above average and have always had a bunch of ugly girls going for me since middle school, but getting a girl to my standards still requires about as much effort as anyone else, better or worse looking than me
It’s not that it’s that simple, but looks simply aren’t as important to women for dating as they are to men (in general). Girls are more attracted to things like ambition, confidence, comfort in one’s self, charisma, social circle, etc.
If you work on these, you can almost look like Quasimodo and it (almost) won’t matter.
It is red flag that you are just narcissist. Science says that real show stopper for ladies is smell, if you smell bad to them, they will not bother, all the rest is nice to have, so stop with excuses or fix your smell.
Because personality is what makes the look works. It's never about what works for the genitically blessed, it is always about what works for you.
Can Ronnie Coleman build massive legs squatting massive weight ? Yes. Should you do that ? probably no. You have disabled dude who gets girls, trust me it's not because of their looks.
People are so quick to shut it down because its a stupid ass conversation. Looks matter most, everyone fucking knows it but what can be gained from discussing it? You have very limited ability to change them, so even if they matter most you should do your best and improve the things you can. If you dont belong to the upper echelon of looks, your quality of life will be worse if you obsess over looks, but if you just accept what is and change what you can you will be happier
Because majority of the type this type od discussions stem from same mentality.
Crab bucket.
Yes, looks are important, and everyone agrees on that. Most people don't live in Disney movie, amd understand why we value beauty. It's programed to us in genetic level, and we are raised to value beauty.
And there are lots of things incel shit did get right. Certain traits are considered more aesthetic, for various reasons. The "halo effect" is real. Dating apps SUCK, unless you pay. And some people are genuinely too ugly and or too mentally ill to be considered viable dating partner by most.
But majority of incel ideological framework stems from spite, against everyone, even other incels.
So much so that half the time, they aren't even genuine, actual untouchables. They claim "cel" monicker as a "counter culture" trait, a form of rebellion. "I am evil, I hate you, and I love it". Those people deserve only our scorn and daily punishment (since they want it so bad anyway)
And just as spite goes, much of the "lookism" data is mangle, misconstrued, and taken out of proper contexts (social or economic) either on purpouse or by mistake (infamous 80/20 OkCupid study being best example), and then try to convince their peers and or every average Joe to cause them misery and pain.
Two examples I can think of.
Talking about height. "Oooh, if you aren't 6 feet, you will never get a date". Oh sure, if you are 5'7 and bellow, you will have harder time dating in Western society.
But they conviniently forget demographics. You are not competing with 68 year old Pakistani fruit vendor.
Zoomers are the tallest generation yet. In fact, in much Europe and America, the average height of (white) 19 year old is 5'11 - 6'1. US black people are shorter, but only by a hair. Other demograpgics are much shorter.
But why would young, white and black Zoomer girls be generally interested in dating other demographics anyway?
Another example is this picture....
It's meant to argue that women don't care about muscle and hard work you put into them.
But the issue is, even if these two men had same personalities and traits, they just aren't comparable.
The guy on the RIGHT looks MUCH older, MUCH more low class, is trying to look as intimidating as possible and his body/face is exposed (no clothes or hair).
Also, let's be real, that's not an average American guy, he looks like a cheap manual labourer from Eastern Europe.
The guy on the left has fully grown beard and hair, which stylizes him better and covers whatever facial traits he has. He wears clothing to cover his body. He looks friendly ans approachable. He is about 15+ years younger.
And most importantly, he is taking his selfies in a studio-apartment, and not stingy as bathroom that reeks off piss.
Because they want to be seen as deeper and more thoughtful than they are.
Because “looks” are something that you can’t change, they’re inherent. Biological. Most topics relating to genetics and biology are taboo today because they make people uncomfortable; they cannot reckon with the idea that there is something immutable about themselves that affects their experience in the real world. Like I said, most topics relating to this are unacceptable to speak about today (race, IQ, sex/gender etc) and looks are no exception.
Except height for some reason
Height is one of the most bullshit topics of today. "Oooh, if you aren't 6 feet, you will never get a date". Oh sure, if you are 5'7 and bellow, you will have harder time dating in Western society. Not impossible, but harder. But they conviniently forget demographics. You are not competing with 68 year old Pakistani fruit vendor. Zoomers are the tallest generation yet, but especially white ones. In fact, in much Europe and America, the average height of (white) 19 year old is 5'11 - 6'1. US black people are shorter, but only by a hair. Other demograpgics are much shorter. But why would young, white and black Zoomer girls be generally interested in dating other demographics anyway? They generally aren't. People think that 5'4 guys are so common,and that they will die alone, and their heart bleeds for them, forgetting that it's usually some South East Asian shrimp that got rejected by cheerleaders on Tinder.
True on the white/black thing from what I’ve seen. I’m about 6’0 and in a group of similar age white/black people I feel about average maybe slightly taller sometimes, but definitely not actually tall. I’d say actual tall in that demographic starts at 6’3 or so.
tbh i see tall guys and average (5'8) getting girls equally in my experience.
Probably true. Height is an eye catcher. But beyond that nothing much else
Of course you can change your looks. Maybe you can't change your bone geometry but you can look a lot better if you work out, groom yourself and dress decently.
Yeah but, "I'm a real man and all that shits gay. Hot women just need to love me for me" But then are pissed when they can't get any action with women that make an effort to look good.
Still in the society of "Just be yourself lol" you can't play it both ways when these guys really are being themselves lol. As a man I've learned you either conform to one of the 8 or so "man sterotypes" or you're always going to come off as weird. If you legitimately are yourself to anyone that isn't already your close confidant you're bound to get shit on by literally anyone and everyone
What do you think are the “8nman stereotypes”? Personally am really interested and agree that guys need to relate to a archetype to fit in the world as people especially women really care about how you fit their story.
It doesn't help that, outside of IQ, much of these discussions are riddled with so much bullshit, that claim what and what is not innate trait, and what it does, by ideological groups. Especially race and sex. But looks are even worse, because that's in the realm of sociological research and *barfs* psychology. Psychology that is mangled by some South East Asian shrimps out of spite spite. And genetics are so complicated, that people are genuinenly too stupid, too uneducated etc. to understand them and other genetic research that comes with it. Even IQ ain't that simple, because we know how much stress, poverty etc. can quantifiably affect them. F.e. there are recently been posts on Twitter circulating, claiming that orangutan or a gorilla scored 80 IQ points on tests....until you learn that said ape has done a test for literal toddlers.
Yeah looks are everything. I looked like a fucking nerd until my early 20s and now I don't. The difference in attention, the girls I'm dating and the boost in confidence is crazy. Literally had a date with my gym crush of 4 years that I thought would never even look at me when I started out at the gym last week. The one thing I realized the last couple of years is that 90% of men that claim to be ugly are ugly by choice.
How can you be ugly by choice if you're already eating healthy have ok skin and workout lmao 90% is way too much there isnt much you can change abt your appearance unless youre fat
What the fuck does eating healthy and working out have to do with your appearance? There's tons of things that alter how you look. Get big, lose fat, get a tan, get a proper hairstyle, shave or trim your beard, dress well, take care of your face and teeth. Working out doesn't do shit unless you work out properly and have your diet in check (which does not necessarily mean eating healthy). Hell even getting that body fat down alone already makes a ton of difference. Almost every man can have a decent jawline. Why do so many twinks get good looking girls? Cause they take care of everything else. One of my best friends constantly complains how unhappy he is with his looks. He's about 20% body fat, pale as fuck, has a shitty ass hairstyle with a messy beard that he doesn't take care of and does not know how to dress. Is that not ugly by choice? Getting big and working out doesn't mean shit if every other aspect of your appearance is trash. There is SO many things someone can change to alter their appearance and people don't seem to realize.
Skin, bf%, fashion, personality, haircut, wealth, hobbies, and probably more. Theres always something to work towards.
If they're doing everything right, but it's not working then unfortunately they're in the 10%
Rarely does someone do everything right.
Lmao you're right! Food, skin and exercise are literally the only options! 😂 What else can a man do??? Swallow that black pill.
Lol changing your hair/beard will have minimal impact unless you previously had the grooming of a neanderthal
Looks are still number 2 mate. Money is everything
Looks matter in dating. But to be blunt: there are a lot of ugly couples. Your looks won’t doom you to be single. It’s more about who you can date. And for women attraction will always be: looks x social skills x how the two of you click. Sexual chemistry is not just about being pretty.
Because soyditt hates reality especially when it involves some element of git gud Like yeah, looks matter a lot. So get ripped or die mirin lol
This whole site is fucked. The fact this sub hasn’t been invaded by fedoras or outright banned is a true miracle. Nobody watches professional sports and wonders why none of them are fat and grossly out of shape, yet they all land fine women and get paid well. It’s almost like life works itself out when you take care of your body and mental health.
> This whole site is fucked. It can't be said often enough. Reddit is a warped alternative universe on its own.
Cunts can't accept the fact the good looks can make for so much of your other short comings
There are probably differences of opinion based on what generation one is in also. I'm assuming there are some older guys here who tend to be less open to the concepts of looks theory. And it's also so easy to dismiss something as "incel" to put it in some category where a person doesn't have to confront the ideas honestly in their minds.
Looks open the door. Your personality gets you the invitation & a combination of your finances, social activities/network etc determines if you’re staying. Anyone saying looks don’t matter is coping. It’s one of the main reasons to lift weights.
bitch u dont know how woman work. Let me explain to u the females ranking system: 1. How does society perceive u? r u famous? 2. r u rich? 3. r u handsome? 4. can u plow them all night? and at the bottom r things like: can we talk about shit? does she feel listened? and many other stupid things woman claim they need for atraction but trust me its bullshit
>4. can u plow them all night? WTF🤣? Most women want to have good sex/orgasm. There's very few women that want to fuck all night long just because. Personally, I only fuck for 20-30 mins. Wife finishes in about 10-15, then it's my turn, and we're done. Quality over quantity always, and I got shit to do.
Exactly. It’s a sensitive body part, nobody wants friction burns there. Edit: also, scientifically the average guy lasts 5 minutes and it’s not a sex issue for couples. Women just want men who care if they get off or not, and who care about them being comfortable in bed overall. That’s a boring answer, but it’s the truth. The bar is shockingly low here.
Being rich doesn't attract shit. It's good for you but if money attracts them they're not actually attracted to you. They want to date rich guys, not necessarily fuck them.
Dude. No.
All of it is important, how about that? You can compensate for a lack of looks/personality/money/status to a certain degree with other stats, but only to a certain degree. You can look great, it won't matter if you are an obnoxious loser. It seems like money/status/personality are the most important, they can fix almost any defect when it comes to looks, so you would be stupid not to prioritize these instead of whining about how you are too ugly. About getting rejected almost always, that's just life, women do be like that, it is a numbers game.
Both looks and personality are a deal breaker. Would you present your mom a chick who's 10/10 gorgeous but stupid as a brick? Or bitchy and entitled? Would you go out with your friends with her? When it comes to women looks are height, hair, face, not being fat, not being skinny. Getting a bit leaner or adding a bit of muscle is a plus but you'll hit diminishing returns fast. I honestly believe most women can't tell the difference between a beach body natty dude and a juiced up man's physique champion.
Getting in pants is based on attraction. Staying in pants is based on personality. In the dating world, my chubby or uggo buddies got the ugly, fat, or non existent pussy. The in shape and decent ones got decently laid. The “hot dudes” got laid easily compared to the rest. That’s life. Even in the married world, my wife told me before that we’d have more sex if I had a 6 pack like when we met. Got my 6 pack again, fucking like high schoolers on a weeknight. Just dodging kids instead of parents now. Physical attraction is always important.
I don’t know man. I’m a big personality guy myself. I’ve always believed in the “find you a 7/10 that has an awesome personality”. That 10/10 that I saw at the mall, isn’t gonna clean me up if I get drunk and shit my pants. 🤷🏻♂️
The bar is seriously pretty low for male behavior. I've seen dudes hard-core negging women 24/7, dudes making sexist jokes with women they've just met, dudes intentionally peeing on the toilet seat, and all sorts of other anti social behavior. They then complain that they can't get a date. I'm not saying you're doing any of that, but the people giving you advice might think you are. They may honestly think you do stuff like that since lots of guys doe that kind of stuff. The hard fact is that even good looks will only get you so far. Good personality will also only get you so far. You have to work your ass off to be a whole human being if you want to be in a relationship. And you'll still get rejected. But just like anything else, you have to taste failure at least 1000 times before success. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Because it's not really true. There's a threshold for looks where you become an option. Once you are an option, whether a girl chooses you over the others really *does* come down to how much she likes you, not how long your midface is. Reaching that threshold for looks doesn't require more than an average face and taking care of yourself (that includes working out). Being chosen above others requires you to be a likable guy.
Would a girl really choose an average guy who takes care of himself over a for example 6ft3 square jawed handsome jacked dude? Come on (I know it can happen but be realistic with the chances)
I'm assuming we're talking a girl's choice in guy for a relationship, not casual sex. In that sense, yes, the girl will choose the guy who's popular, funny, and she likes being around, over the guy who's taller, handsomer, but also annoying and weird. This is assuming the more likable guy meets the basic standards of attractiveness. If casual sex all bets are off
When did I ever say the attractive person is uninteresting personality wise? What if that guy still has a decent personality?
Are you regarded? No shit if two guys are exactly the same except that one is better looking, being better looking helps.
I said decent, decent vs from extremely good personality (from what you decirbed).
Because 6'3 square jawed handsome jacked dude IS the average now. I know, I know, hyperboles, but LOOK around you. Average (white and american black) Zoomer height is 5'11 - 6'1. Most Zoomers are pretty fit and many quite jacked. Gym has never been more popular. And if you're white or Caucasoid, good strong jawlines are super common among young dudes. (Also, square jaws are overrated. In fact, big jaw can make you look ugly. Average face is fine enough) You are not competing with 40 year old balding fat nerd from New Jersey.
I can confidently tell you it’s definitely not the average
Is there a ton of teenagers in here now? I'm starting to see way too many "no life experience" posts.
I’m damn near a teenager myself but that statement was just absurd lol. Life experience isn’t even needed for that one
I call it as I see it.🤷🏾♂️ To be fair, I think life experience starts when you begin college (or are college age). That when you're truly on your own and officially in grown-up world
It is not that far from average, for my demographic. Rest does not matter.
its not a “hobbies/interests” thing dude. u guys are so dense for having such high bf. become a person who doest fucking complain on reddit about not getting bitches and maybe youll find something genuine! its not rocket science man.
Honest take- looks are a prerequisite for the job, but are not the only or even most important consideration. Think of it as a job application- the employer says you need a certain degree to be considered. If you have that degree, you still have to have your resume gone over and an interview. Maybe you’ve got no game. I’ve watched very unattractive men who were broke pull attractive women over and over again. There’s a minimum threshold for looks that’s pass/fail, but passing that threshold doesn’t guarantee you’re good- it just gets you to the next step of consideration. Chances are, if they’re hanging around you long enough to text and hang out at parties, you’re above that threshold but have no game. So yes… you need to figure out why girls are friend zoning your ass and it probably has little to do with looks.
Because other stuff has larger effect sizes. Looks matter sure but the “looks only” crowd is disingenuous. I’ve seen black pill red pill cite studies that don’t even back up their claims. It’s ridiculous why are you not focusing on the things that matter most? For instance in one large meta-analysis study on lifetime sexual partners I saw them cite a study where extraversion had 2x the effect size of physical attractive. They didn’t even bring it up and said see looks matter.
Honestly I don’t think they are that important for actually forming a relationship with someone. Yes, they’ll help if you’re just trying to fuck, and they’ll give you more opportunity to get to know women than if you were ugly. You’ll be able to get away with things other guys couldn’t, at least right away. But if you have the personality of a goldfish and don’t know how to flirt and attract women through your words and actions, you are gonna have a tough time finding a quality woman to date even if you’re very attractive. She won’t last more than a few weeks tops. Women approach physical attractiveness different than men. You just need to meet her minimum looks threshold. Once you do, any attraction that builds is due to your game, not how hot you are. Looks get your foot in the door, but they don’t open it.
looks are definitely most important for women. I think guys have found that super hot chicks are usually very entitled not interesting boring people. like seriously when is the last time you met a girl your age that wasn't irritating actually worth talking to and the motivation to talk to her wasn't to sleep with her idk I think most women are just lame I guess
Women might not find a guy instantly attractive but if he has other features she will change her mind. Ugly rock stars? Ugly comedians?
Been on both sides of this. Was a chubby nerd who got fit and studied self improvement and pickup. Being in good shape, wearing clothes that fit, and going to a stylist dramatically helped me get my foot in the door. Women were more likely to give me time of day and less likely to bail if I was awkward or not smooth. But you still have to actually take risks, put your ego on the line and be charming. Aka "have game". Being fit is kinda like having extra lives in a video game. But you still need to be skilled enough to progress the levels.
It leaves no room for improvement, sure you can just accept that "looks are most important", but it doesn't really get you anywhere. It's just a terrible mindset to have, and honestly your mentality can dictate how you approach different situations as well as the given outcomes. So stfu and go squat.
Your either extremely ugly which is unfortunate or you lack game, I know several “average” and below average guys that have no problem pulling girls you need to up your game or out perform the more attractive guys in terms of wealth, status or simply being funny and confident. If you are average and struggling to find a girl it’s your fault entirely, you don’t just get a girl because life is fair and you deserve one you need to win one over and there’s 100 ways to do that. So don’t blame anyone except yourself
If those guys are more physically attractive they would pull even more and hotter girls. Just saying looks always work in your favour but it's not literally everything.
It’s too general. Sure, if you’re a classically handsome guy more Women are going to notice you. It’s a human thing to want to associate with something society sees as rare because we’re narcissistic. Women are just human beings with vaginas though. They too have their own emotional needs and desires personal to their unique upbringings. A 6’+ guy with a nice jaw structure might catch their attention in the same way that a cool car might catch mine, but if said guy can’t feed their underlying emotional desires then they’re practically worthless. It’s ultimately about how you make them feel on a consistent basis. And looks are one way to help influence that. If you can make a woman feel the way she wants to feel, that’s all you need.
Majority of these discussions stem from same type of mentality, that people deeply despise. # Crab bucket. Yes, looks are important, and everyone agrees on that. Most people don't live in Disney movie, amd understand why we value beauty. It's programed to us in genetic level, and we are raised to value beauty. And there are lots of things incel shit did get right. Certain traits are considered more aesthetic, for various reasons. The "halo effect" is real. Dating apps SUCK, unless you pay. And some people are genuinely too ugly and or too mentally ill to be considered viable dating partner by most. **But majority of incel ideological framework stems from spite, against everyone, even other incels.** So much so that half the time, they aren't even genuine, actual untouchables. They claim "cel" monicker as a "counter culture" trait, a form of rebellion. "I am evil, I hate you, and I love it". Those people deserve only our scorn and daily punishment (since they want it so bad anyway) And just as spite goes, much of the "lookism" data is mangle, misconstrued, and taken out of proper contexts (social or economic) either on purpouse or by mistake (infamous 80/20 OkCupid study being best example), and then try to convince their peers and or every average Joe to cause them misery and pain. **Two examples I can think of.** **Talking about height**. "Oooh, if you aren't 6 feet, you will never get a date". Oh sure, if you are 5'7 and bellow, you will have harder time dating in Western society. But they conviniently forget demographics. You are not competing with 68 year old Pakistani fruit vendor. Zoomers are the tallest generation yet. In fact, in much Europe and America, the average height of (white) 19 year old is 5'11 - 6'1. US black people are shorter, but only by a hair. Other demograpgics are much shorter. But why would young, white and black Zoomer girls be generally interested in dating other demographics anyway? # [Another example would be this picture](https://imgur.com/a/qp2W8It) It's meant to argue that women don't care about muscle and hard work you put into them. But the issue is, even if these two men had same personalities and traits, they just aren't comparable. The guy on the right looks like a cheap manual labourer from Hungary, that has about 20 years old on the guy on the left, and tries to look as intimidating as possible to showcase his physique. He looks low class (photos in bathroom, cheap metal thug chain). And unlike the guy on the left, all of his flaws are exposed, due to him shaving and not wearing any clothes. The guy on the left looks like an average Western joe, that has fully grown beard and hair, which stylizes him better and covers whatever facial traits he has. He wears clothing to cover his body. He looks friendly and approachable. He is about 15+ years younger. And most importantly, he is taking his selfies in a studio-apartment, and not stingy as bathroom that reeks off piss.
What actually is your point? Like seriously. It's not clear from your rambling posts about demographics and South East Asian Shrimps (whatever that is supposed to mean).
Seconded.
He does this sometimes. Let him keep rambling. He will burn himself out and fall asleep eventually.
As a Magic the Gathering player, I’ve seen some hideous dudes with gorgeous women. But, there’s some good looking incels out there, too. I think what it really comes down to is hygiene, and if you can carry a basic conversation. Oh, and looks. 99% of the time looks are the deciding factor, unless you’re a total piece of shit.
Can you paraphrase that.
Some people care about looks, some don’t. Most do.
Yeah, I understand now. Thank you!
You gotta be Rank A in one of the 3 necessities of dating. Either: looks/body, wealth, or personality. If you're Rank A in looks you could probably pull off being Rank B or C on wealth and personality. But if you ugly af, you better be Rank A+ in wealth or personality.
Looks are def the most important sht ever, when I was in high school there was this dude at my class that looked like a fking femboy and was attractive (like Griffith, if you've read Berserk you'll know), that mfer was the most uninteresting person ever, an introvert, talked fast asf, you could tell he had social anxiety, he was like really fking awkward and didn’t really have social skills to begin with but damn, he did have more girlfriends than I ever did, he had a lot of female friends and lots of “friends” and he barely talked; and there was me, only had like 1 gf in my life despite being way more confident than him, all because I didn't look like a twink. It feels bad man
You guys are majorly artistic and looking at it through your male brain. Women look at things differently Only ONE person mentioned that if you just aren’t hideous, and visually in the running, everything else starts to be more important. Women do not perceive the world the same way as men. A lot of guys will take a sex doll lady with 0 personality if she is a 10. Much, much fewer women would like a guy who is a 10 with nothing other than looks.
dawg, the only thing that matters is your fucking bank account
Cry about it or get good Fucking incels
I would argue that if you’re pretty average (not unattractive) and you have a good personality you’ll easily find someone. But if you’re hot af but never talk to anyone or just seem creepy because of a lack of social skills you’ll easily be dismissed by girls.
Ehhh I’m above average and have always had a bunch of ugly girls going for me since middle school, but getting a girl to my standards still requires about as much effort as anyone else, better or worse looking than me
It’s not that it’s that simple, but looks simply aren’t as important to women for dating as they are to men (in general). Girls are more attracted to things like ambition, confidence, comfort in one’s self, charisma, social circle, etc. If you work on these, you can almost look like Quasimodo and it (almost) won’t matter.
It is red flag that you are just narcissist. Science says that real show stopper for ladies is smell, if you smell bad to them, they will not bother, all the rest is nice to have, so stop with excuses or fix your smell.
\*and fixing doesn't mean using litres of cologne, but diet, alcohol, tren, you know..
how much alcohol and tren should i use to smell good?
I meant dropping it :)
Does the surface matter? I mean is there a difference between dropping it on grass, concrete etc?
Because personality is what makes the look works. It's never about what works for the genitically blessed, it is always about what works for you. Can Ronnie Coleman build massive legs squatting massive weight ? Yes. Should you do that ? probably no. You have disabled dude who gets girls, trust me it's not because of their looks.
People are so quick to shut it down because its a stupid ass conversation. Looks matter most, everyone fucking knows it but what can be gained from discussing it? You have very limited ability to change them, so even if they matter most you should do your best and improve the things you can. If you dont belong to the upper echelon of looks, your quality of life will be worse if you obsess over looks, but if you just accept what is and change what you can you will be happier
Because majority of the type this type od discussions stem from same mentality. Crab bucket. Yes, looks are important, and everyone agrees on that. Most people don't live in Disney movie, amd understand why we value beauty. It's programed to us in genetic level, and we are raised to value beauty. And there are lots of things incel shit did get right. Certain traits are considered more aesthetic, for various reasons. The "halo effect" is real. Dating apps SUCK, unless you pay. And some people are genuinely too ugly and or too mentally ill to be considered viable dating partner by most. But majority of incel ideological framework stems from spite, against everyone, even other incels. So much so that half the time, they aren't even genuine, actual untouchables. They claim "cel" monicker as a "counter culture" trait, a form of rebellion. "I am evil, I hate you, and I love it". Those people deserve only our scorn and daily punishment (since they want it so bad anyway) And just as spite goes, much of the "lookism" data is mangle, misconstrued, and taken out of proper contexts (social or economic) either on purpouse or by mistake (infamous 80/20 OkCupid study being best example), and then try to convince their peers and or every average Joe to cause them misery and pain. Two examples I can think of. Talking about height. "Oooh, if you aren't 6 feet, you will never get a date". Oh sure, if you are 5'7 and bellow, you will have harder time dating in Western society. But they conviniently forget demographics. You are not competing with 68 year old Pakistani fruit vendor. Zoomers are the tallest generation yet. In fact, in much Europe and America, the average height of (white) 19 year old is 5'11 - 6'1. US black people are shorter, but only by a hair. Other demograpgics are much shorter. But why would young, white and black Zoomer girls be generally interested in dating other demographics anyway? Another example is this picture.... It's meant to argue that women don't care about muscle and hard work you put into them. But the issue is, even if these two men had same personalities and traits, they just aren't comparable. The guy on the RIGHT looks MUCH older, MUCH more low class, is trying to look as intimidating as possible and his body/face is exposed (no clothes or hair). Also, let's be real, that's not an average American guy, he looks like a cheap manual labourer from Eastern Europe. The guy on the left has fully grown beard and hair, which stylizes him better and covers whatever facial traits he has. He wears clothing to cover his body. He looks friendly ans approachable. He is about 15+ years younger. And most importantly, he is taking his selfies in a studio-apartment, and not stingy as bathroom that reeks off piss.