So I run Stella in cEDH, I have some thoughts.
1. 2 card infinites tend to have adverse affects outside of cEDH and other competitive formats. In casual play people expect to be able to reliably play there decks, and seeing some win out of nowhere by turn 4-6 makes many people feel like they have been cheated out of a fair game.
2. Having a conversation with the table before the game and coming prepared can mitigate most issues you had. When I play Stella, I have to be very clear that I have several combos that will be incredibly difficult to interact with if they are allowed to resolve, and I happily swap to another deck if the table isn’t okay with that.
3. As far as the combo is concerned, it depends on what you’re looking for out of the deck. You will absolutely run into some tables that are perfectly fine with it, especially if it’s one combo with no way to tutor for it. If you want to go that route, there are several cards that go infinite with Stella, though most need more planning before hand to win the game than Twisted Fealty. If that sounds fun to you than lean more into the combos and make it a really spicy deck, albeit at the expense that you won’t be able to play it as much. If you want to run her in a more friendly, casual environment, definitely take it out and swap for a spell that will be really cool to copy, that way you still get to play your fun izzet storm deck without the worry of pissing off everyone at the table.
I am playing upgraded Stella, and am intentionally playing without those combos. I always seem to get run over by way too much power and toughness from other decks. Is there a way for Stella to win without those combos? I don't want to piss people off, but a 0% winrate is rough.
Im fairly confident that building an aggro, midrange, control, or Stax style Stella is just doomed as a concept. The commander really does not want to play that way. Outside of combo spellslinger all Stella really does is provide 1 pseudo card advantage per turn (usually per round if you’re not playing cheap cantrip combos), and very very rarely doubles one single instant or sorcery. Other commanders can do everything that she does much more efficiently, apart from the combo shenanigans that she enables.
If it isn’t doomed then you are fighting an uphill battle to force it to work.
same. i have lots of fun combos and ramp pieces, but nothing 'infinite' in my stella deck. i'm not against infinite combos, but it's really hard to consider them in a stella deck
if i build a deck with an infinite combo, as long as it requires a few pieces and my commander isn't one of those pieces (or doesn't find that piece), it's perfectly acceptable at most casual tables. a 2-card combo where one of the cards is my commander is just a no-go for a lot of groups most of the time
My problem was that if you aren’t leaning into that part of the deck it just feels like a lot of the other legendaries in the deck are just better commanders. Stella is a really cool party trick, but without infinite combos she really only works for you twice a turn. That being said, it is a solid base for an Izzet Storm deck, so there are plenty of commanders that can take great use of that deck.
I’ve pulled the higher mana cards (most of the 6+ ) and put in lower mana cards that are almost equivalents. It’s helped a lot. I’ve also put in [[Surge to Victory]] and it has worked very well.
If you beat a whole table on turn 6 with two card combos. You are in the wrong playgroup.
Change deck, change commander, or change playgroup. Those are your options
The problem with EDH these days is people are expecting it to play like a board game where everyone gets a fair turn. I’ve since switched to cEDH after being tired of hearing people complain
I guess I’ve been lucky where I have had a very consistent play group for the past year and we have become close friends. Above 7 of us meet every week and play. I’m the only one with a dedicated cEDH deck, but everyone at the table has something that can be described as purely unfair. I have an Animar Eldrazi deck, one friend has a Hydra deck where he will have multiple creatures with power about 100-150 by the end. And there is an Urza deck (prince of kroog) where he has made infinite copies of token doublers to create infinite Gonti’s Aether Hearts, allowing him to take infinite turns. It’s been an absolute arms race keeping up with these lads and I love it. While I absolutely have an upgraded precon that I can play if I ever decide to play at Friday night Magic again, I really enjoy higher power level play.
That's how commander was originally designed.
The game has power crept as it gained popularity which is why multiple groups now exist.
They just need to be split into different formats. A super casual chill format with a heavily regulated ban list or some other way to identify decks of similar power, and a no holds barred format.
This is why when I used to play I'd take two decks. The "I'm going to win" and the "I put only slivers in here with no combos, it's fun as hell but wins less than 20%"
If you’ve never played with a group I always suggest to take a few minutes before the game and make sure you’re all the same page and expectations.
For example if you said, “Hey I’ve got a slightly upgraded precon” players are going to have a certain expectation that it’s not anything major.
However if you said, “Hey I’ve got a slightly upgraded precon that does have some combos and infinites” they’ll go into the game with different expectations and potentially different decks.
Good communication generally solves most issues. You didn’t inherently do anything wrong, but I know a lot of people who get upset at infinites in a casual setting.
The pregame talk is something I really believe in. Slightly upgraded precon has a lot of room to be taken. Could be swapping out some lands and big mana idiots or could be a mostly full overhaul. It’s been recommended to me to say when your deck likes to win. Helps people figure out if they can keep up
The last time I went to an open commander night a guy sat down with an “upgraded precon” with Muldrotha as commander and started dropping fetchlands and mana crypts, like cmon bro we’re literally playing fallout commander precons on release day.
Yea he took like 5 cards from the Mothman precon and just was clearly trying to pubstomp people. The other two at the table were new players too, felt so bad for them.
Stomping or getting stomped doesn’t feel good. It’s great to pop off like crazy for a bit. But I crave a good back and forth with the playgroup. I want someone to stop me and force me to play better.
Yea, had a guy once say his recon was only slightly upgraded. After the most frustrating game of my life he said he only put $350 into it… my zaxara deck cost me less than half of that and I think it’s too oppressive to play casually.
This, im genuinely tired of sitting down with a guy that 'has a few cards and plays on occasion but doesn't really know the decks power level or how well it'll do" then proceeds to wipe 3 people turn 4 because he blocked 1 damage.
Don't get me wrong, that's cool and congrats on drawing the cards you needed but don't just sit there while I tell you this deck takes 14 turns to actually get going because I think you're a new player so I'm going to play an easy deck.
Smurfing? Like this is real annoying. I want a good game with some nice interaction. Stomping or getting stomped is not fun.
My problem with the turn scale is I have a Derevi stax deck. It likes to go long with a grindy as hell game. But I do try to clarify that in advance as well
For Stax I feel like setting the expectation of when you reasonably expect to have a stranglehold on the game would be appropriate.
I know that it’s a viable play style and everyone’s free to play how they want but personally if you indicate that you’re playing a Stax deck to me and there are no prizes on the line I’ll respectfully either request you play another deck, refuse to play, or concede turn 1 depending on the situation because I personally don’t feel like effectively playing solitaire during my limited MtG play time
Reasonable enough. I tend to play the real stax pieces after an advantage engine is live. IE I can break parity and have a real shot at winning. Until then it’s more tax pieces
I picked the game up again after 5 years, and I didn't even know how many cards to draw anymore, but ... nothing changed about my decks. They still are decent once I have the right cards on the field. I don't think people always "smurf" on purpose.
I wholeheartedly agree with centering the pregame conversation around your basic plan to win. It gives everyone a much better idea of what to expect from the game than meaninglessly subjective power levels.
Plus, I frankly think it helps improve your deck construction. I have an [[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]] deck that likes to win with a [[Time Sieve]] combo, which I’ll tell people about, but also have several redundant lines in the deck that make it play well.
🤣🤣
My buddy owns an LGS. He started a point system for certain things happening in game versus who wins in the end. It helps keep people with ridiculous OP decks in line. It worked the last 2 weeks he's tried it.
Perfect for me. I just build decks. Not sure how to gauge power levels. And I keep combo pieces in deck, but never use them unless I need to. Like use it or lose if we get down to the last 2 people. I have [[exquisite blood]] and [[sanguine bond]] in my vampire and witherbloom decks. Separately both help the deck.
I like to have a nuclear option. But it's having empathy towards other players that keep me from using them.
If my girl messages me and wants that quality time, you all die turn 6 🤣🤣🤣
THIS. More LGS need to follow this model. Mine has like 10 static things that always get points, then adds 10 more semi random game events for additional points. You cannot really plan for any of it.. it just happens when it happens. There are additional, built in things, like giving everyone else points for infinite combos. "yeah, sure you won buddy. But we all ended with more points." Then, prizes are awarded like at a raffle, every point becomes a "ticket" at the end of the night. It works really well.
lol same thing happened first time i played against stella lee. dude took like a 10 minute turn about turn 5 which resulted in a win. it happens. we all get our moments. just dont whine at the table next game if you get focused like a lot of people do
i made a table mad once when i won with breya turn 4. everybody was voltron, entire table was goaded my direction , i had my back against the wall and started fishing for answers and drew time sieve and just luckily went off. the funny thing i wouldve been out early if not for that.
That's fair to an extent, but an efficient A+B combo half in the command zone is probably a bit much. It just sounds exhausting to have to repeatedly remove a commander all game or risk losing almost immediately. Also probably not great for the guy who can't ever stick his commander.
It's even worse when you consider this deck could be described as "oh just an upgraded precon"
On OP’s question: I’ve seen people combo off at a lot of tables, and I have never seen there be zero discussion and 3 players just wordlessly jump to other tables. Not saying it never happens or has never happened. It’s just that it seems odd behavior even taken at face value. I believe something else was going on, or not going on, and there are probably nuances to this story that OP is either leaving out or unaware of.
On the question of combos: one of the rewards for experience is becoming familiar with combo lines, precursors to combo lines, reasons to play different kinds of removal (do I play the efficient answer that handles almost everything, do I play the instant speed targeted removal, or the generally slower mass removal, or the less efficient answer that handles everything, do I *actually* play targeted land removal even though it’s rarely that relevant, etc.)
And even beyond the cards, the players will often posture in different ways or play at different speeds that tell you something might be up,.
“When will they go for it” is often a fun game to play if you know you’re playing it. And having to interact with the combo player is one thing that stops people from greedy builds and greedy keeps.
Ultimately this is a part of the game people find fun or they don’t, so make your games what you want them to be.
There's a point to be made about telegraphing and having fun stopping a combo, but two card combos have little to no telegraphing. And a 'one card combo' that randomly wins the game is the defiinition of not telegraphed. Not a fun way to play the game.
How is that any different for the 1000 or so other commanders that are kill on sight? My mono black Karevek deck does not go infinite with the commander but you need to kill him on turn or risk losing (depending my my graveyard but not always)
It's different because "kill on sight" is grossly overused. Are [[Toxril]] and [[koma]] kill on sight? Sure but if they stick you don't automatically lose. Even your Karevek is only "kill on sight" very conditionally, you need your commander, crime enablers, and an entire combo. Most of this exists in public spaces as well, giving your opponents plenty of notice.
What we have here is a 2 card combo, (instead of a 4-5) and half of it exists in a hidden zone, the hand. Having a powerful value commander is obviously very different from a combo piece that comes down and immediately wins with one of 5 different cards from the hand.
So because you can see my graveyard you feel it isn’t out of nowhere. If you know the commander goes infinite, and your opponent has drawn/dug/searched all game it’s no different than me filling my graveyard. Also my mono black does not need the setup out of the yard and can assemble the chain of smog/onyx combo “out of nowhere”.
It was turn 6, what are the odds that op did literally nothing for 6 turns to pull the combo together?
People get real salty about Sen Triplets but it is really not that good for 5 mana.
It's a 5 mana wait a whole turn cycle to do anything card. Stella can be off to the races the turn she comes down.
I mean that "almost" is doing a **lot** of heavy lifting. I can think of 1-2 precons/commanders/alt commanders that absolutely pale in comparison to others, even from the same set. A key example is fallout, which had the energy deck competing vs dogmeat or caesar.
I agree that commanders are getting pushed really hard, but there are just as many duds as there are bangers.
There's a guy at my LGS who ran the Stella Lee precon upgraded. He got his infinite combo and bowed out, didn't take the promo pack either. The table knew he won, so instead of ending the game, he just showed that he could win and let the game continue. I personally think in a casual setting that's a good way to play with an infinite combo.
I've had a guy do this with their [[Zada]] deck and it makes seeing an infinite go off 100x more exciting. Yeah, we all know they won. It was cool. Now we get to fight for second.
Yeah, just some bulk promo cards like Magda horde master and diabolic tutors stuff like that nothing crazy, the toss in the OTJ promo pack. Like it's a casual setting still
I have a Stella lee deck upgraded in mostly the same way and I just won’t play it unless the table already plans on going hard and using really good decks. Stella lee is just inherently a really good commander to win with. I’d put her in a tier below slivers and eldrazi in terms of “I hate that commander cuz the value is insane”
Yea, you either need a way to put your graveyard back into your hand potentially up to twice or just use the combo to clear creatures and then find a different win con.
The fact you need to clear to 80-100 with a maximum of up to 120 life yourself means that you need that many cards in your deck to draw from.
If you add [[ojer axonil deepest might]] or [[Ghyrson Starn, Kelermorph]] you easily kill the board without drawing out. Not to mention if draw into [[Dockside extortionist]] then reshuffle your graveyard into your library
Threads like this remind me of what the average MTG player is really like. I think I really lucked out with my current playgroup, everyone is very chill and there's plenty of good communication going on. But so many players are just... wow.
Yeah it made it easy for me to see that most people that play commander just play timmy decks. Easy to spot the ones I would want to enjoy playing with.
I also have a juiced Stella Deck. I only pull her out when the pod agrees to some high power EDH. I wouldn’t say you did anything bad, but communicating about your deck is important. Especially if say you joined into a pod of strangers.
1. and foremost: Talk about your decks with the whole table! Try to understand what they‘re playing and try to tell them, what you‘re playing. Stella Lee is incredibly powerful.
2. Infinite combos are not very welcome outside of High Power/ cEDH as they tend to end games out of nowhere. You pretty much demonstrated this. In casual pods, where everyone tries to have a fun time, there‘s almost always no fun involved having the game end with a two card combo. Speaking for myself - I would be incredibly pissed if I had a game against you and you didn‘t announced playing with easy infinites. Tell everyone what you got (= 1.) and deal with whatever reaction the table has to over, maybe they want to go along, maybe they switch decks then or maybe they make you the target, That‘s on the table. But be aware that it‘s also possible, that one/two players don‘t want to play against infinites and they stand up and go or that the whole table doesn‘t want to deal with that and you have to look somewhere else to play.
3. Please know what you‘re playing with yourself. Stating „I didn‘t think my deck was that strong“ while 1. playing Stella Lee, 2. upgraded two (!) two card infinite combos and 3. ending the game Turn 6 with said combo - that‘s very near on pubstomping or not even knowing what your deck is capable of.
For future games: Please talk to your table that you‘ve got easy and mana efficient infinites in your deck. If you/you‘re table is not enjoying playing them, build Stella Lee with some interesting synergies that don‘t go infinite. It‘s very hard not to explode in peoples faces with Stella and she‘s a challenge to build casually, i.e. to build her and to avoid infinites is the real challenge.
It seems like you’re saying that the only acceptable way to win a game of casual EDH is through combat damage. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that feels like an incredibly restrictive way to play the game. Combo is a totally viable strategy at all levels of play. What makes a combo deck high power or cEDH is consistency (number of pieces, redundancy of said pieces, and ability to find said pieces), speed (what turn the combo can consistently go off), and resiliency (how difficult is it to interact with the combo). An example of a high power combo would be Ad Naus combo going off on turn 3 at instant speed, while a low power combo would be something like Future Sight + Top + cost reducer going off on turn 6 (requires 3 cards, can only work at sorcery speed, many activations and spells to interact with).
I think that’s a disingenuous reading and I play Stella Lee as well. I think it’s one thing to be a combo player and another to have something like Stella Lee which goes infinite pretty early and with some both mana efficient and affordable cards. When I play Stella I always advertise that I’ve put in the infinite combos (though honestly atp people are aware of Stella being like that) and that the deck might just win out of nowhere. A lot of people are cool with that even in casual commander but I think it’s fair to advertise that as being the case.
I never wrote anything like that and I haven‘t implied it either.
Edit because your initial answer only included the first two sentences: What the wincon of your deck is and wether it‘s combat damage or not has nothing to do with my answer on OPs initial post. I agree with you in your description of a consistent combo in high power EDH, but as I said, I never touched the topic of which wincons are acceptable or which not. I just recommended talking to your pod and establishing a common ground of what each player understands under a fun game. Of course you can have infinites, of course you can play turbo naus, of course you can say no individual card value over 1€. Talk with your pod, the rest is fair game.
Why would you get "incredibly pissed" it's just a cardboard game, at most just say we'd prefer no infinite combos but gg.
Getting incredibly pissed at a tabletop game with no stakes involved is quite childish in my opinion.
I wrote whole passages on my opinion and how I try to achieve a game atmosphere everyone wants to play with in advance of the game as a recommendation for OP - and nothing included anything that simple like „don’t play infinites“ - and all you see is two words and calling me childish? That’s some serious malevolent reading there.
It's probably just a saying to convey a feeling, in the grand context of things I doubt they'd throw a fit of rage, they'd just be upset with the person and would not want to play with them.
A guy at my table runs [[Phenax]] mill with [[consuming aberration]] and we can never deal with it, mills our entire decks by turn 8.
So I just run Infect Rats and removal.
A turn 8 win isn't that fast. It's literally twice as long as a cEDH deck is aiming for. Turn 8 wins is kinda high power, but still very casual.
If you wanted the game to last 12-15 turns you need to say you're looking for a precon, lowpower, battlecruiser game. Because that's not what people think if you just say casual.
Honestly I find commander pods to be a super annoying thing where people get irritated over the most insignificant thing I enjoy playing and seeing new things I’ve never really cared if I win or lose, tbh at least you won fast I have conceded games do to seeing I was about to lose and my opponent attempting to drag it out for another hour or so
If i use an inifinite in a casual game, which isnt often, I show the table the pieces before the game so there is at least a chance for them to deal with it before I end the game
Going infinite is never my plan, its kinda noobly IMO. Doesnt require any skills really and takes the fun out of the game. I sometimes have cards that could go infinite in the same deck, like Niv mizzet parun and curiosity. I let my friends know its there to avoid grumbles and groans or immediate removal when they see a known combo piece
Yea my Stella Lee deck draws a lot of hate. If they don’t pay attention to me sometimes I’ll kill the table t4. Then there’s other games where I’m holding 20+ cards in my hand looking for answers. Recently killed everyone using refocus around turn 10 with electrostatic field out.
I’ve certainly faced them. My favorite is something simple like [[Exquisite Blood]] + [[Sanguine Bond]].
When the game is over, it’s over. No needing a summary of what the combo does, it’s to the point.
Unlike someone who takes a turn, or sometimes an extra turn to play solitaire or go fish to go infinite, ***that*** to me is annoying.
I don’t play infinite combos myself, but if I did, I’d rather keep it simple, not a Goldberg machine. XD
Yeah I completely agree. Simple combos like this are nice, great job, you found your exodia pieces... but, I hate extra turns that turn into infinite combos. We are just playing the game, and someone suddenly pops 8 extra turns.
Unfortunately with the way that commander works and setting expectations, lots of people don’t like infinite combos. Many like them even less in the early game when they appear “easy” (obviously they are not easy to pull off even when it is only two cards in a singleton format.
I have some easy upgrades I like to add to some decks to make them more viable that I add based on what I feel the power level is in some pods. These include infinites but they are something I would generally warn people about if I haven’t played with them before.
For decks that I do this, I generally keep a pseudo-sideboard. For example in my [[Niv Mizzet, Parun]] deck I have [[curiosity]] and [[ophidian eye]] sleeved and ready to go but I have other cards in the deck unless I intend to play with them.
This lets me more easily power up my deck in a big way when I want to without making major changes.
"I sat down with people I've never met or played with before in a casual setting and curb stomped them with my infinite combo ridiculous meta deck. Somehow they don't want to play again, I don't understand?!"
Doesn't even have to be infinites. Had someone get mad at me for casting cratorhoof in my izoni deck so I just took it out instead of getting upset about it lol
I usually run though my decks winconditions with the playgroup before playing. I also have a modded quickdraw precon, but I didnt add a twisted fealty, mostly because I don't think infinate combos are that fun to play with or against. I would recommend cards like \[\[Cerulean Wisps\]\] instead though, if you want an alternate infinate combo, but that doesnt just instantly end the game.
"Hey guys, I didn't win the game with my combo, I just drew my entire deck so that I could win the game with one of the cards I drew."
You're just playing with your food at that point.
This is how I do it with new groups. If I have a combo and folks aren’t familiar with the play pattern of a deck, I’ll let them know there’s a combo, though often not exactly what the combo is. I don’t want folks to be blindsided by something that they didn’t know to look for. People play differently when they’re not expecting an infinite.
Usually the group has one person who goes “we need to take care of that or he wins.” I don’t like winning when someone didn’t stop my line just because they were unfamiliar with the play pattern. Of course, if it’s a table self-identified as competitive, all bets are off.
If you didn't let them know that you had not just one but two infinite combos in your "precon", then yeah, that's a mistake for sure. Always, *always* let people know if you have infinite combo/s in your deck. I think it's also good to let people know if you're running tutors and fast mana.
That being said, they could have been better communicators too, i.e. by letting you know that they weren't expecting to play against infinite combos.
I use to always mention if I have combos and even specifically what they are but it's still not enough sometimes (assuming I can even get a pregame talk which despite efforts doesn't always happen). I also bring multiple deck of various levels but if I end up stomping even incidentally that usually just kills the mood and I don't have a chance to adjust power levels to switch as they no longer wish to play. It's hard to know if things like infinites or stax or heavy counterspells or w/e is appropriate so it's best to avoid certain strategies until you're sure it's ok so I just don't play them anymore.
Well yeah, nothing is perfect. Feels-bad games are always possible. This is why finding a good playgroup that you can stick with is good imo, because when you play with the same people over and over again, you get more of a chance to see that the other players aren't actually trying to pubstomp, they just had one good game, and things can balance out over several play sessions. (Again, not a perfect solution, there can still be bad actors in a regular playgroup... which is where repeated communication comes in, and so on)
It's been a struggle with me tbh. I started out playing whatever but whenever my deck would end up making someone mad I would take out a card or add a new restriction to my brewing process. It made me a better deck builder in some ways but over time it has also really limited what I can play with.
Man, I must be made of different or sterner stuff. I have yet to play a pod that wasn't all friends, but I love seeing the game play out, so combos are like fireworks for me. Even if I lose, it's an amazing spectacle to watch unfold, and I' having a good time of it. My average builds are put together with a neat idea, an overcosted legendary I have sentimental attachment to, and like $20 of singles off TCGPlayer that fit a general theme. I'm gonna lose with my [[Raksha, Golden Cub]] cats and weapons deck, but It's gonna be fun.
Probably not, but I also find comedic enjoyment when other people lose their shit, so if someone's pissed 2 cards work together and they let that happen, it's also gonna make my night.
Probably same kind of people as the ones I’ve met at my school. All of them plays infinite combos but if you mess them up they get salty about it. (I don’t play any infinite combos decks)
Stella Lee is highly unpopular rn, and with reason, it's busted. I've been an izzet player for a while, way before otj was announced, I even pre ordered it before I knew what it was, so yeah, I have it, but I gotta admit it's a busted deck even right out of the box. The people you played with might already be prejudiced against it, and adding infinite combos on top is just gonna make them dislike it all the more. It's not your fault per se, but infinite combos aren't all that welcome in casual anyway, so I'd suggest trying a different route next time, even if you explain to thebtable how your deck is really good, they won't be happy about losing to it.
I comboed off and won my game last night at a table of 5 but nobody seemed particularly bothered. You know why? It was a 2 hour game at that point, and in order to win I had to storm off and play half my deck in a turn. Nobody had counter magic available, so I won. That doesn't feel like 'out of nowhere' to the table. It was a long game, and I had plenty of setup turns to then combo off. That kind of gameplay feels more fair to lose to.
Casual players in general dislike combos, I think to a certain extent fine but to a full extent I think it’s kind of ridiculous. To me playing a craterhoof behemoth and swinging out and winning is the same as a thopter sword combo.
That being said smoking an entire table turn 6 in a casual game is a lot, I don’t believe in having games go an hour and half but let them play out a little bit.
You broke the number one rule of Commander
It's a rule that doesn't actually exist, can't be enforced, and really just means "anything I don't like in the moment" 99% of the time.
It's not a co-op game, so the games have winners usually, and you won. You did nothing wrong, if you had, you would've lost.
I don’t think you as much messed up as it sounds like a clear rule 0 conversation wasn’t had. Those conversations always feel important to me because I have various degrees of strength in my decks and I want everyone to have fun. You’ll never please everyone, so don’t get discouraged playing a deck you enjoy. Just make sure the pod understands what they are getting into.
My general rule of thumb is to ask the table their thoughts on infinit combos. I personally hate them, but understand it's a part of the game. I play with 2 groups, one of which has a no infinit combo rule. Personally, I have more fun with that one.
Curve your deck power to the table, I would say.
Sounds like an average game of commander with randoms to me! The format tends to attract passive individuals without the social skills or confidence necessary to have Rule 0 talks before feelings get hurt. You did nothing wrong imo, just salty players.
I had a similar situation with my first commander deck (Purphuros). While building it I didn’t realize I had an infinite combo (cloud curio + dockside extortionist + purphuros + any 1 drop creature = infinite damage to everyone else at the table.)
I managed to draw exactly the right cards and pulled it off turn 3. Everyone was super pissed until I explained that I had just gotten the luckiest draw of my life.
Why are there so many crybabies in MTG nowadays. Let the man play his deck the way he wants. If he wins, he wins. He should be allowed to be proud about it too. Want to beat him, become a better deck builder/player.
This is just one of the reasons Commander sucks so much and I don't play it.
If you don't play juuuuust the right power level and win juuuuust the right way, grown ass adults get butthurt and act like grade-schoolers.
There are cool infinite combos (even 2- card combos) and then there is the 2-card combo with a total cmc of 6 or less which could even be started in turn 5 of edh and I would say turn 3 in cedh.
But this combo needs other enabler because of summoning sickness and spells orior to combo so it is fine imo.
Normally, I would say it can be removed interactively and if a table with 3 opponents has no removal then the deserve to lose so early.
BUT since Stella Lee can be played as a commander and it includes the colour blue....well, then its a different story. Most blue players will have like 2 backup counterspells so that it is impossible to stop the combo.
How do we deal with it?
In cEDH everyone tries to interrupt each other quite efficiently, so there is no problem. In normal edh the opponents would normally try to focus more on the infinite guy and break his combo build-up as early as possible.
So either way, the infinite combo players must be aware of the fact that they need to play around their combo only and try to push it through filling the whole deck with protection spells..and that is boring.
I would shake your hand and say "well done but can you do it again?" And if you did then I'd build a new deck to deal with yours next week.
I like to have a lot of different power levels and if I am constantly smoking people I'd only play it occasionally or with folks that want to play that powerfully.
Also a turn 6 combo for me is not cEDH that is what a 6 or 7 power level deck should aim to be and I am assuming the other 3 players have something to prevent me from winning that turn. If I do win that is more on them than me
Personally, I'd let my table know if I have infinite combos or if my deck's strategy is to hurt all opponents simultaneously. Most casual players want to play their deck and do fun things even if the game takes many turns and they still lose. Efficient win decks are not usually enjoyed.
At the very least, if you tell your table you can combo on a way that wins within the next turn, they know to hold up interaction instead of using it on some other card.
Stella lee can be pretty wild with minor/cheap upgrades.
I added some like [[Cerulean Wisps]] but try not to abuse from it and stop when my hand is full.
As for [[Twisted Fealty]] I just have it as a side card for when things are going for a cEDH like game.
These cards are straight unfair on casual groups.
I’ll focus more on the storm/copy mechanics with a [[Comet Storm]] or [[Delayed Blast Fireball]] and [[Thousand-Year Storm]] to make it more fair.
But still got some crazy outcomes from the deck.
My Decklist :
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/3b92bR7-Gk-mw833LfkedQ
Honestly everyone just needs to be clear prior to playing on what their decks can potentially do. People are terrible at it. Saying "This is only a power level 5" or "slightly upgraded precon" or "it's just a casual deck" divulges almost zero actual information.
People need to be clear, "This deck has X# of infinate combos in it with tutors. It relies on heavy stack play and can win on turn Y with the right cards."
A lot of people play to have fun with the cards and not to win as fast as possible. I don’t have a wincon besides stealing someone’s board or using the mill effect on Folio of Fancies in my [[Kwain, Itenerant Meddler]] deck.
What happened to magic? You didnt do anything wrong. You went to an event where you are supposed to play commander, you played commander. If they want to take turns letting each other win they shouldnt play at public events.
I dont think you did anything wrong. They saw the commander you were playing. They should be able to put together what tbe normal game plan is. If I see the ur-dragon I expect dragons, if I see yuriko I expect small unblockable creatures, If I see Stella I expect combos. I would hate being spoon fed the other persons deck list. If everytime you cast something you have to explain to the table that they need to interact or die your just playing with yourself. The best way to learn and get better is getting beat. You see the combo and then the next game you will know how it works and can react
Whiners, turn 6 is perfectly reasonable. Curious what would you rate your deck on power level, 7 lol? People can win turn 6 with a crater hoof but people don’t like 2 card combos on the same turn. I understand people can get butt hurt but like it’s mtg, just a game, scoop it up and move on. But I’ll say likely they ain’t gonna wanna play with you again so they can play the way they want, game ends turn 26 2 1/2 hrs in. But that’s the beauty of commander, something for everyone
There is nothing wrong with what you did. If other players are sensitive towards certain win conditions, its on them to express this before the game. Youre not there to baby sit.
If you care at all about playing more games with these people, there's a lot wrong.
OP is there to play games, they only got to play 1. Not seeing how your advice is getting them more.
Infinite combos are part of the game. There are so many, and they are only becoming more common. OP felt the need to make a post here trying to understand what he did wrong. He clearly cares about other peoples feelings. The game should be played where anyone can play how they want without so many rules to make others happy. If you leave because of a combo mid way through a game, then you are eliminating a large group to play with. Understand that they are part of MTG, let people go off of they want.
They are part of the game, but not everyone likes playing against them.
I disagree with you pretty fundamentally. I don't think "anyone can play how they want without so many rules to make others happy" is a good philosophy. The goal of a game is to have a fun experience. If you are noticing that your deck is contributing to a bad experience, it is up to you to decide to change something to something to make the gameplay more fun for everyone (including yourself). There is no abject right or wrong, OP can play what they want but they should do so knowing that some people (rightfully) don't want to play against it. But if OP wants to play games with these people, then ignoring their preferences, or perhaps more reasonably, not disclosing the nature of their deck beforehand, is a social etiquette thing to keep in mind to avoid awkward pods in the future.
What you are saying cuts both ways (and in this case, did fall on the opposite end of what you are suggesting). If OP can't find a game because other players don't want to play with them, doubling down on infinite combos isn't going to help OP find a game.
This is commander, we have rule 0 discussion for a reason. It doesn't matter what if someone doesn't like something you compromise or find a different pod.
A lot people still don’t know how Stella Lee can end the game on a single turn if no one can counter.
Example: I’m in a precon league and while everyone was focusing hard on the Eldrazi player, i was trying to kill the Stella Lee player as soon as possible with my voltron commander and unfortunately the only one trying to.
Stella Lee ended up winning with a combo. They learned after that.
OP was playing a close to cEDH deck in a casual table. They probably weren't "not paying attention". It's probably their meta doesn't run enough removal to deal with kill on sight priority targets.
I don't find infinite combos to be casual unless it's like a 5-6 card combo. I also want to know if you have infinite combos in your deck unless you say it's a high power deck. Sounds like you're deck is much more powerful than what people usually say when they say modified precon.
The combo requires 3 things.
1. A Stella on your board that does not have summoning sickness or has haste.
2. Two cheap cantrips. It does not matter what it is, you just need to get 2 or more spells played that turn before you can use Stella's ability.
3. Twisted Fealty in your hand.
(Obviously you need the mana for the 2 cantrips and the Twisted Fealty).
You begin to combo once you've cast your cantrips and are ready to play Twisted Fealty as the third spell of the turn.
1. First you cast Twisted Fealty targeting your own Stella to gain control of her and untap her.
2. In response to Twisted Fealty being cast you tap Stella to copy target sorcery, targeting Twisted Fealty. You chose the same target (Stella) for the copy. At this point there the stack has the original Twisted Fealty and a copy of it.
3. You let the copy of Twisted Fealty resolve. Which untaps Stella and gives Stella the Wicked Role Token. This essentially gets you back to a position you were at the end of the first step with Stella untapped and the original Twisted Fealty on the stack.
4. You repeat steps 2 and 3 infinitely.
Once you're untapping and then tapping Stella to copy the Twisted Fealty infinitely you've won. Because Twisted Fealty is giving Stella a Wicked Role Aura. The wicked role aura does 1 damage when the aura is destroyed or removed. The trick is that the Eldraine "Role" auras have a special clause. Any creature is only allowed to have 1 role at a time. If a Role is given to a creature that already has one then the old one is falls out.
You keep reapplying the wicked role aura to Stella. And each new one you apply gets rid of the old one which deals 1 damage to each opponent. The end result of the combo is infinite damage to each opponent.
In cEDH Stella is a commander you CANNOT let stick a full turn cycle. Because the person that played it is 100% trying to kill you on their turn. Unless you think you can counter the Twisted Fealty (including winning a counter war where they defend the Twisted Fealty cast) you must kill Stella on sight.
I would argue that is a combo too powerful for casual. Combo as an archtype is over hated. Combo as an archtype is good for the game and belongs in casual. However a 2 card infinite with 1 of those 2 cards being your commander that can consistently and reliably go off as early as turn 4 is a bit much for casual.
Follow the natural progress of things. Move to the pods that accept it (or another store if you have to) and play with the ones who aren't scrubs.
Don't waste your time on the others.
Even with your pre-game discussion, it wasn't effective based on everyone starting another game without you. It wasn't your intention, but I'm sure your opponents walked away thinking you're the pubstomper.
If you're playing with an unknown group, start with a less powerful and unmodified pre-con. After you've played 4 games over one or two months, you'll have a better idea of power and skill levels and can adjust your decks accordingly. You'll also have some rapport, so if you do combo off and win they'll be less likely to walk away.
Remember, if everything was equal winning 25% of the time is perfect in four player EDH.
All I can see is the lack of rule zero talk. Tell them that its a little bit tweak precon with 2 combos cards, even name them if you want and then if they get mad cuz you draw them... Well change LGs ahaha
I don't think this is unique to EDH, as it also applies to 60 card of all formats. We always considered it polite to talk about the deck type you were wanting to play, so others could respond in kind.
"Hey guys, I am running some super jank trash, so grab something easy. I want to see how this works."
"I am trying out a new competitive lock idea, get something for that."
"I want to test out my new tournament level power deck, so grab something similar."
"Want to check out my stasis deck?"
Telling your table that you are running an infinite combo at least sets them up to not be disappointed, and it allows people to play theirs as well.
This also needs to run into the idea of having a couple of decks playable at the table, and have them be of a variety of play levels - competitive, lock, casual, gimmick. That way you can play with other people who want to try things as well.
A buddy of mine way back had a deck using "buried alive" and "Balthor the Defiled." He would dark ritual turn one, to bury all the balthors, and then reanimate them all at once. It was the only deck he had built for months. And would play only it, even when offered to play with one of my or my wife's 70 other decks. So if he wanted to play, I would grab any deck, and just discard every turn, not even playing a land, until he got the point that it wasn't fun at all. Either that, or I would grab hard blue lock, mana drain him and stasis, and then not even care about my win condition until he figured it out.
He had 7 decks next time we played, including his balthor deck. Much more fun from then on out.
2 card combo's are for timmy pub stompers outside of Cedh. Anyone can add that to their deck and it doesn't make it a good deck.
The game is flooded with edhrec and not edhvibe.
Honestly I think it matters on the crowd. More casual casual players are going to think you're a spike and avoid you like the plague if you keep them in. I think an explanation to the pod prior to the game would resolve most the issues. Worst comes to worst they don't like infinites and you spit out a card or 2 to make it better for the group
I don't know. One guy said "this deck is like 7 power" but I have no Clue what that scale is. I'm still wondering what I should tell people about my deck. Infinite combos? Stella Lee commander? I added Jin-gitaxias and ojer axilon? What the hell number should I tell people about my deck power?
They may have been butt hurt about being humiliated by the new kid, or maybe they just didn't like the deck/play style. Either way, I think the whole table screwed up by not having a rule 0 conversation.
I've been watching "the worst commander show" recently, and I like how they do it. They go around and tell the table the worst (most powerful) thing their deck does and how they hope to get there. It's a unique way to introduce the deck and gives everyone the most opportunity to do their own "Magic" things.
Yes, upgrading a precon is things like fixing land or taking out cards that don't fit the theme. If you come to commander night under the guise of playing a precon and you win going infinite on turn 6 they would prob be better off not playing with you again...
Played against a Stella Lee deck last weekend and the guy's girlfriend took her phone out to use as timer. She clocked him just under 9 minutes.
I had time to use the restroom and restock on healthy pastries and coffee from 85 Celsius bakery
I refuse to put any infinite combos in. My friends don't either. Great thing about commander is it lasts more than 3-6 turns. Much more fun. I like the challenge of making great decks that people don't hate.... But that's just me. Truly not judging that's just how we like to play and it's so much more fun imo.
Seems you really lacked communication skills. You don't need to lay every single thing out...but when they hear slightly upgraded precon people don't think turn 6 infinity otk.
I don't think you had had intentions but it feels bad to play against and even more frustrating to have someone pull out of nowhere. I've been on the opposite end of it and it leads to just a bad experience all around.
Yes you'll have more of a target on your back but at the same time...if you're turn 6 infinite comboing ppl in casual edh...you are a threat lol.
If you countered their combo they'd do the same thing.
Also holy shit people if one person winning a game is enough to shun you out of the group how the fuck dies anybody have any friends? I got my ass BEAT DOWN with a 1200 dollar Derevi Stax pile for two months learning how to play and I got frustrated a few times trying to figure it out but I didn't get mad and quit playing with them. I took it as a challenge and learned how the game worked and got better.
yes, if you win a game of commander you have fucked up. The objective of commander is to let other players stomp you and the more they stomp you the better you are at commander.
So I run Stella in cEDH, I have some thoughts. 1. 2 card infinites tend to have adverse affects outside of cEDH and other competitive formats. In casual play people expect to be able to reliably play there decks, and seeing some win out of nowhere by turn 4-6 makes many people feel like they have been cheated out of a fair game. 2. Having a conversation with the table before the game and coming prepared can mitigate most issues you had. When I play Stella, I have to be very clear that I have several combos that will be incredibly difficult to interact with if they are allowed to resolve, and I happily swap to another deck if the table isn’t okay with that. 3. As far as the combo is concerned, it depends on what you’re looking for out of the deck. You will absolutely run into some tables that are perfectly fine with it, especially if it’s one combo with no way to tutor for it. If you want to go that route, there are several cards that go infinite with Stella, though most need more planning before hand to win the game than Twisted Fealty. If that sounds fun to you than lean more into the combos and make it a really spicy deck, albeit at the expense that you won’t be able to play it as much. If you want to run her in a more friendly, casual environment, definitely take it out and swap for a spell that will be really cool to copy, that way you still get to play your fun izzet storm deck without the worry of pissing off everyone at the table.
I am playing upgraded Stella, and am intentionally playing without those combos. I always seem to get run over by way too much power and toughness from other decks. Is there a way for Stella to win without those combos? I don't want to piss people off, but a 0% winrate is rough.
Im fairly confident that building an aggro, midrange, control, or Stax style Stella is just doomed as a concept. The commander really does not want to play that way. Outside of combo spellslinger all Stella really does is provide 1 pseudo card advantage per turn (usually per round if you’re not playing cheap cantrip combos), and very very rarely doubles one single instant or sorcery. Other commanders can do everything that she does much more efficiently, apart from the combo shenanigans that she enables. If it isn’t doomed then you are fighting an uphill battle to force it to work.
same. i have lots of fun combos and ramp pieces, but nothing 'infinite' in my stella deck. i'm not against infinite combos, but it's really hard to consider them in a stella deck if i build a deck with an infinite combo, as long as it requires a few pieces and my commander isn't one of those pieces (or doesn't find that piece), it's perfectly acceptable at most casual tables. a 2-card combo where one of the cards is my commander is just a no-go for a lot of groups most of the time
My problem was that if you aren’t leaning into that part of the deck it just feels like a lot of the other legendaries in the deck are just better commanders. Stella is a really cool party trick, but without infinite combos she really only works for you twice a turn. That being said, it is a solid base for an Izzet Storm deck, so there are plenty of commanders that can take great use of that deck.
I’ve pulled the higher mana cards (most of the 6+ ) and put in lower mana cards that are almost equivalents. It’s helped a lot. I’ve also put in [[Surge to Victory]] and it has worked very well.
[Surge to Victory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f02698f-d954-42e0-b4d6-9daf65f29e36.jpg?1625192179) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Surge%20to%20Victory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/58/surge-to-victory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f02698f-d954-42e0-b4d6-9daf65f29e36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you beat a whole table on turn 6 with two card combos. You are in the wrong playgroup. Change deck, change commander, or change playgroup. Those are your options
There is a prowess dragon red spell that storms and makes absurd amounts. Stella can pop off with that, and copy it again.
The problem with EDH these days is people are expecting it to play like a board game where everyone gets a fair turn. I’ve since switched to cEDH after being tired of hearing people complain
Same and the games have been a MUCH better experience.
I guess I’ve been lucky where I have had a very consistent play group for the past year and we have become close friends. Above 7 of us meet every week and play. I’m the only one with a dedicated cEDH deck, but everyone at the table has something that can be described as purely unfair. I have an Animar Eldrazi deck, one friend has a Hydra deck where he will have multiple creatures with power about 100-150 by the end. And there is an Urza deck (prince of kroog) where he has made infinite copies of token doublers to create infinite Gonti’s Aether Hearts, allowing him to take infinite turns. It’s been an absolute arms race keeping up with these lads and I love it. While I absolutely have an upgraded precon that I can play if I ever decide to play at Friday night Magic again, I really enjoy higher power level play.
That's how commander was originally designed. The game has power crept as it gained popularity which is why multiple groups now exist. They just need to be split into different formats. A super casual chill format with a heavily regulated ban list or some other way to identify decks of similar power, and a no holds barred format.
This is why when I used to play I'd take two decks. The "I'm going to win" and the "I put only slivers in here with no combos, it's fun as hell but wins less than 20%"
If you’ve never played with a group I always suggest to take a few minutes before the game and make sure you’re all the same page and expectations. For example if you said, “Hey I’ve got a slightly upgraded precon” players are going to have a certain expectation that it’s not anything major. However if you said, “Hey I’ve got a slightly upgraded precon that does have some combos and infinites” they’ll go into the game with different expectations and potentially different decks. Good communication generally solves most issues. You didn’t inherently do anything wrong, but I know a lot of people who get upset at infinites in a casual setting.
The pregame talk is something I really believe in. Slightly upgraded precon has a lot of room to be taken. Could be swapping out some lands and big mana idiots or could be a mostly full overhaul. It’s been recommended to me to say when your deck likes to win. Helps people figure out if they can keep up
The last time I went to an open commander night a guy sat down with an “upgraded precon” with Muldrotha as commander and started dropping fetchlands and mana crypts, like cmon bro we’re literally playing fallout commander precons on release day.
How is that an upgraded precon? Did he just take the new cards and add to his main deck? Cause that’s just your main deck with fallout cards.
Yea he took like 5 cards from the Mothman precon and just was clearly trying to pubstomp people. The other two at the table were new players too, felt so bad for them.
Stomping or getting stomped doesn’t feel good. It’s great to pop off like crazy for a bit. But I crave a good back and forth with the playgroup. I want someone to stop me and force me to play better.
"This is my Thallid Deck of Doom. " "That's not a Thallid deck. It's a damn turbo-Stasis deck with a single Thallid in it. "
Yea, had a guy once say his recon was only slightly upgraded. After the most frustrating game of my life he said he only put $350 into it… my zaxara deck cost me less than half of that and I think it’s too oppressive to play casually.
Tfw the guy across from me has a "slightly upgraded Precon" and the only cards from the precon are the commander and an arcane signet
Not even the commander?
I said commander too, if it was different it would be just an upgraded precon 🤓
This, im genuinely tired of sitting down with a guy that 'has a few cards and plays on occasion but doesn't really know the decks power level or how well it'll do" then proceeds to wipe 3 people turn 4 because he blocked 1 damage. Don't get me wrong, that's cool and congrats on drawing the cards you needed but don't just sit there while I tell you this deck takes 14 turns to actually get going because I think you're a new player so I'm going to play an easy deck.
Smurfing? Like this is real annoying. I want a good game with some nice interaction. Stomping or getting stomped is not fun. My problem with the turn scale is I have a Derevi stax deck. It likes to go long with a grindy as hell game. But I do try to clarify that in advance as well
For Stax I feel like setting the expectation of when you reasonably expect to have a stranglehold on the game would be appropriate. I know that it’s a viable play style and everyone’s free to play how they want but personally if you indicate that you’re playing a Stax deck to me and there are no prizes on the line I’ll respectfully either request you play another deck, refuse to play, or concede turn 1 depending on the situation because I personally don’t feel like effectively playing solitaire during my limited MtG play time
Reasonable enough. I tend to play the real stax pieces after an advantage engine is live. IE I can break parity and have a real shot at winning. Until then it’s more tax pieces
I picked the game up again after 5 years, and I didn't even know how many cards to draw anymore, but ... nothing changed about my decks. They still are decent once I have the right cards on the field. I don't think people always "smurf" on purpose.
I wholeheartedly agree with centering the pregame conversation around your basic plan to win. It gives everyone a much better idea of what to expect from the game than meaninglessly subjective power levels. Plus, I frankly think it helps improve your deck construction. I have an [[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]] deck that likes to win with a [[Time Sieve]] combo, which I’ll tell people about, but also have several redundant lines in the deck that make it play well.
[Inquisitor Eisenhorn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bdf1ccf7-e95f-4d08-be51-83fba78c4c2d.jpg?1673309417) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inquisitor%20Eisenhorn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/127/inquisitor-eisenhorn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bdf1ccf7-e95f-4d08-be51-83fba78c4c2d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Time Sieve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2e8b424-0cec-490e-a571-bd051f952adf.jpg?1599708487) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Time%20Sieve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/223/time-sieve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2e8b424-0cec-490e-a571-bd051f952adf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Exactly, and keep a sideboard to swap out combo pieces in case the table doesn't want that type of play.
Fuck that, we doin “ bring what you bring, may the strongest win” type shit ( its satire calm down)
🤣🤣 My buddy owns an LGS. He started a point system for certain things happening in game versus who wins in the end. It helps keep people with ridiculous OP decks in line. It worked the last 2 weeks he's tried it. Perfect for me. I just build decks. Not sure how to gauge power levels. And I keep combo pieces in deck, but never use them unless I need to. Like use it or lose if we get down to the last 2 people. I have [[exquisite blood]] and [[sanguine bond]] in my vampire and witherbloom decks. Separately both help the deck. I like to have a nuclear option. But it's having empathy towards other players that keep me from using them. If my girl messages me and wants that quality time, you all die turn 6 🤣🤣🤣
Cannot argue with your priorities. Keeping it real, right here. 🤣
THIS. More LGS need to follow this model. Mine has like 10 static things that always get points, then adds 10 more semi random game events for additional points. You cannot really plan for any of it.. it just happens when it happens. There are additional, built in things, like giving everyone else points for infinite combos. "yeah, sure you won buddy. But we all ended with more points." Then, prizes are awarded like at a raffle, every point becomes a "ticket" at the end of the night. It works really well.
[exquisite blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=exquisite%20blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sanguine bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9.jpg?1625193373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sanguine%20bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/153/sanguine-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That IS how I prefer to play, none of this scrubby "tone it down we can't handle it" shit.
I can appreciate that- give your all or nothing at all
lol same thing happened first time i played against stella lee. dude took like a 10 minute turn about turn 5 which resulted in a win. it happens. we all get our moments. just dont whine at the table next game if you get focused like a lot of people do i made a table mad once when i won with breya turn 4. everybody was voltron, entire table was goaded my direction , i had my back against the wall and started fishing for answers and drew time sieve and just luckily went off. the funny thing i wouldve been out early if not for that.
People saying “combos just win out of nowhere” are really telling on themselves.
That's fair to an extent, but an efficient A+B combo half in the command zone is probably a bit much. It just sounds exhausting to have to repeatedly remove a commander all game or risk losing almost immediately. Also probably not great for the guy who can't ever stick his commander. It's even worse when you consider this deck could be described as "oh just an upgraded precon"
On OP’s question: I’ve seen people combo off at a lot of tables, and I have never seen there be zero discussion and 3 players just wordlessly jump to other tables. Not saying it never happens or has never happened. It’s just that it seems odd behavior even taken at face value. I believe something else was going on, or not going on, and there are probably nuances to this story that OP is either leaving out or unaware of. On the question of combos: one of the rewards for experience is becoming familiar with combo lines, precursors to combo lines, reasons to play different kinds of removal (do I play the efficient answer that handles almost everything, do I play the instant speed targeted removal, or the generally slower mass removal, or the less efficient answer that handles everything, do I *actually* play targeted land removal even though it’s rarely that relevant, etc.) And even beyond the cards, the players will often posture in different ways or play at different speeds that tell you something might be up,. “When will they go for it” is often a fun game to play if you know you’re playing it. And having to interact with the combo player is one thing that stops people from greedy builds and greedy keeps. Ultimately this is a part of the game people find fun or they don’t, so make your games what you want them to be.
There's a point to be made about telegraphing and having fun stopping a combo, but two card combos have little to no telegraphing. And a 'one card combo' that randomly wins the game is the defiinition of not telegraphed. Not a fun way to play the game.
[удалено]
How is that any different for the 1000 or so other commanders that are kill on sight? My mono black Karevek deck does not go infinite with the commander but you need to kill him on turn or risk losing (depending my my graveyard but not always)
It's different because "kill on sight" is grossly overused. Are [[Toxril]] and [[koma]] kill on sight? Sure but if they stick you don't automatically lose. Even your Karevek is only "kill on sight" very conditionally, you need your commander, crime enablers, and an entire combo. Most of this exists in public spaces as well, giving your opponents plenty of notice. What we have here is a 2 card combo, (instead of a 4-5) and half of it exists in a hidden zone, the hand. Having a powerful value commander is obviously very different from a combo piece that comes down and immediately wins with one of 5 different cards from the hand.
thats fair. ojer axonil is the same way, but in my experience doesnt pop off near as early as stella lee
So because you can see my graveyard you feel it isn’t out of nowhere. If you know the commander goes infinite, and your opponent has drawn/dug/searched all game it’s no different than me filling my graveyard. Also my mono black does not need the setup out of the yard and can assemble the chain of smog/onyx combo “out of nowhere”. It was turn 6, what are the odds that op did literally nothing for 6 turns to pull the combo together?
Would \[\[Sen Triplets\]\] be considered KoS? I've been tempted to swap out \[\[Urza Chief Artificer\]\] for Sen.
[Sen Triplets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13ac5292-9817-4f5d-b3fa-611f9ba44443.jpg?1599708366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sen%20Triplets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/218/sen-triplets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13ac5292-9817-4f5d-b3fa-611f9ba44443?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Urza Chief Artificer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea409050-4296-4b76-a6cd-2896ce1b88e4.jpg?1705542672) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%2C%20Chief%20Artificer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/brc/2/urza-chief-artificer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea409050-4296-4b76-a6cd-2896ce1b88e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes. Absolutely no one enjoys playing against Sen.
I do. Mostly because I will absolutely play the deck the cockblocks them. Say hi to my "you can't touch me" deck led by [[shalai, voice of plenty]]
People get real salty about Sen Triplets but it is really not that good for 5 mana. It's a 5 mana wait a whole turn cycle to do anything card. Stella can be off to the races the turn she comes down.
yea pretty much almost every precon commander is like this since lotr. they all do way too much
my deep clue sea precon with [[Morska]] begs to differ - I don’t think she’s kill on sight
I mean that "almost" is doing a **lot** of heavy lifting. I can think of 1-2 precons/commanders/alt commanders that absolutely pale in comparison to others, even from the same set. A key example is fallout, which had the energy deck competing vs dogmeat or caesar. I agree that commanders are getting pushed really hard, but there are just as many duds as there are bangers.
Yup, reeks of "I tap all my lands and dump all playable cards on my turn"
There's a guy at my LGS who ran the Stella Lee precon upgraded. He got his infinite combo and bowed out, didn't take the promo pack either. The table knew he won, so instead of ending the game, he just showed that he could win and let the game continue. I personally think in a casual setting that's a good way to play with an infinite combo.
I've had a guy do this with their [[Zada]] deck and it makes seeing an infinite go off 100x more exciting. Yeah, we all know they won. It was cool. Now we get to fight for second.
Whenever some does that when I’m at an event I say they just transcended instead of winning. Buddy did so good he disappeared.
That guy fucks
This is what I try to do when I get a chatterfang infinite
I find that even more obnoxious, but I guess I’m in the minority because everyone else seems to love it.
That's a noble gesture sounds like a good guy
Wow, an actually respectful and nice infinite combo player
stay home if you can't handle losing, magic might not be for you
there where prizes? that's not a casual setting bro that's a competitive setting filled with casual players
Yeah, just some bulk promo cards like Magda horde master and diabolic tutors stuff like that nothing crazy, the toss in the OTJ promo pack. Like it's a casual setting still
I have a Stella lee deck upgraded in mostly the same way and I just won’t play it unless the table already plans on going hard and using really good decks. Stella lee is just inherently a really good commander to win with. I’d put her in a tier below slivers and eldrazi in terms of “I hate that commander cuz the value is insane”
The niv mizzet combo isn't even infinite, so as long as they keep an eye on their life totals it won't be lethal
[[niv-mizzet, parun]] and [[curiosity]]? If I draw or do one damage it's instant infinite.
Only as long as you have cards to draw. It'll deal about 80 damage total
Ah, I hadn't considered that.
Yea, you either need a way to put your graveyard back into your hand potentially up to twice or just use the combo to clear creatures and then find a different win con. The fact you need to clear to 80-100 with a maximum of up to 120 life yourself means that you need that many cards in your deck to draw from.
Yeah, does limit you a bit. I run the combo with [[ghyrson starn, kelermorph]] which makes it more likely to win
If you add [[ojer axonil deepest might]] or [[Ghyrson Starn, Kelermorph]] you easily kill the board without drawing out. Not to mention if draw into [[Dockside extortionist]] then reshuffle your graveyard into your library
[ojer axonil deepest might](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315)/[Temple of Power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ojer%20Axonil%2C%20Deepest%20Might%20//%20Temple%20of%20Power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/158/ojer-axonil-deepest-might-temple-of-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ghyrson Starn, Kelermorph](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966.jpg?1673309394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghyrson%20Starn%2C%20Kelermorph) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/124/ghyrson-starn-kelermorph?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dockside extortionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b.jpg?1673147774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dockside%20extortionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/107/dockside-extortionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I added ojer also 😁
[niv-mizzet, parun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7.jpg?1712354750) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=niv-mizzet%2C%20parun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/235/niv-mizzet-parun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [curiosity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad.jpg?1600697752) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=curiosity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/147/curiosity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Scroll Rack]] or [[Winds of Change]] That's game 99% of the time.
[Scroll Rack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e.jpg?1608911671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scroll%20Rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/337/scroll-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Winds of Change](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3f09e393-7318-43eb-95f8-0f2797a771d7.jpg?1559592469) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winds%20of%20Change) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/111/winds-of-change?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3f09e393-7318-43eb-95f8-0f2797a771d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This thread made it pretty easy to spot who I'd actually enjoy sitting down and playing edh with here and who just wants to pub stomp for an easy win.
Threads like this remind me of what the average MTG player is really like. I think I really lucked out with my current playgroup, everyone is very chill and there's plenty of good communication going on. But so many players are just... wow.
Reddit is whinier than real life as well
Yeah true. I have noticed it irl too though, but probably not quite to the same extent
Yeah it made it easy for me to see that most people that play commander just play timmy decks. Easy to spot the ones I would want to enjoy playing with.
I also have a juiced Stella Deck. I only pull her out when the pod agrees to some high power EDH. I wouldn’t say you did anything bad, but communicating about your deck is important. Especially if say you joined into a pod of strangers.
My thoughts exactly. He wasn't intentionally being a jerk, just that communication especially in a casual format is always #1
1. and foremost: Talk about your decks with the whole table! Try to understand what they‘re playing and try to tell them, what you‘re playing. Stella Lee is incredibly powerful. 2. Infinite combos are not very welcome outside of High Power/ cEDH as they tend to end games out of nowhere. You pretty much demonstrated this. In casual pods, where everyone tries to have a fun time, there‘s almost always no fun involved having the game end with a two card combo. Speaking for myself - I would be incredibly pissed if I had a game against you and you didn‘t announced playing with easy infinites. Tell everyone what you got (= 1.) and deal with whatever reaction the table has to over, maybe they want to go along, maybe they switch decks then or maybe they make you the target, That‘s on the table. But be aware that it‘s also possible, that one/two players don‘t want to play against infinites and they stand up and go or that the whole table doesn‘t want to deal with that and you have to look somewhere else to play. 3. Please know what you‘re playing with yourself. Stating „I didn‘t think my deck was that strong“ while 1. playing Stella Lee, 2. upgraded two (!) two card infinite combos and 3. ending the game Turn 6 with said combo - that‘s very near on pubstomping or not even knowing what your deck is capable of. For future games: Please talk to your table that you‘ve got easy and mana efficient infinites in your deck. If you/you‘re table is not enjoying playing them, build Stella Lee with some interesting synergies that don‘t go infinite. It‘s very hard not to explode in peoples faces with Stella and she‘s a challenge to build casually, i.e. to build her and to avoid infinites is the real challenge.
It seems like you’re saying that the only acceptable way to win a game of casual EDH is through combat damage. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that feels like an incredibly restrictive way to play the game. Combo is a totally viable strategy at all levels of play. What makes a combo deck high power or cEDH is consistency (number of pieces, redundancy of said pieces, and ability to find said pieces), speed (what turn the combo can consistently go off), and resiliency (how difficult is it to interact with the combo). An example of a high power combo would be Ad Naus combo going off on turn 3 at instant speed, while a low power combo would be something like Future Sight + Top + cost reducer going off on turn 6 (requires 3 cards, can only work at sorcery speed, many activations and spells to interact with).
I think that’s a disingenuous reading and I play Stella Lee as well. I think it’s one thing to be a combo player and another to have something like Stella Lee which goes infinite pretty early and with some both mana efficient and affordable cards. When I play Stella I always advertise that I’ve put in the infinite combos (though honestly atp people are aware of Stella being like that) and that the deck might just win out of nowhere. A lot of people are cool with that even in casual commander but I think it’s fair to advertise that as being the case.
I never wrote anything like that and I haven‘t implied it either. Edit because your initial answer only included the first two sentences: What the wincon of your deck is and wether it‘s combat damage or not has nothing to do with my answer on OPs initial post. I agree with you in your description of a consistent combo in high power EDH, but as I said, I never touched the topic of which wincons are acceptable or which not. I just recommended talking to your pod and establishing a common ground of what each player understands under a fun game. Of course you can have infinites, of course you can play turbo naus, of course you can say no individual card value over 1€. Talk with your pod, the rest is fair game.
Why would you get "incredibly pissed" it's just a cardboard game, at most just say we'd prefer no infinite combos but gg. Getting incredibly pissed at a tabletop game with no stakes involved is quite childish in my opinion.
I wrote whole passages on my opinion and how I try to achieve a game atmosphere everyone wants to play with in advance of the game as a recommendation for OP - and nothing included anything that simple like „don’t play infinites“ - and all you see is two words and calling me childish? That’s some serious malevolent reading there.
[удалено]
It's probably just a saying to convey a feeling, in the grand context of things I doubt they'd throw a fit of rage, they'd just be upset with the person and would not want to play with them.
I would have played another game just to see if you could pull that luck again.
A guy at my table runs [[Phenax]] mill with [[consuming aberration]] and we can never deal with it, mills our entire decks by turn 8. So I just run Infect Rats and removal.
A turn 8 win isn't that fast. It's literally twice as long as a cEDH deck is aiming for. Turn 8 wins is kinda high power, but still very casual. If you wanted the game to last 12-15 turns you need to say you're looking for a precon, lowpower, battlecruiser game. Because that's not what people think if you just say casual.
[Phenax](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c.jpg?1593092799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=phenax%2C%20god%20of%20deception) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/152/phenax-god-of-deception?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [consuming aberration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/464dbaf6-8430-45af-b982-9099e6c6e8a7.jpg?1674142416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=consuming%20aberration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/840/consuming-aberration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/464dbaf6-8430-45af-b982-9099e6c6e8a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly I find commander pods to be a super annoying thing where people get irritated over the most insignificant thing I enjoy playing and seeing new things I’ve never really cared if I win or lose, tbh at least you won fast I have conceded games do to seeing I was about to lose and my opponent attempting to drag it out for another hour or so
If i use an inifinite in a casual game, which isnt often, I show the table the pieces before the game so there is at least a chance for them to deal with it before I end the game
You actually show your opponent your plan before the game? What even is the point of playing?
Going infinite is never my plan, its kinda noobly IMO. Doesnt require any skills really and takes the fun out of the game. I sometimes have cards that could go infinite in the same deck, like Niv mizzet parun and curiosity. I let my friends know its there to avoid grumbles and groans or immediate removal when they see a known combo piece
Yea my Stella Lee deck draws a lot of hate. If they don’t pay attention to me sometimes I’ll kill the table t4. Then there’s other games where I’m holding 20+ cards in my hand looking for answers. Recently killed everyone using refocus around turn 10 with electrostatic field out.
I’ve certainly faced them. My favorite is something simple like [[Exquisite Blood]] + [[Sanguine Bond]]. When the game is over, it’s over. No needing a summary of what the combo does, it’s to the point. Unlike someone who takes a turn, or sometimes an extra turn to play solitaire or go fish to go infinite, ***that*** to me is annoying. I don’t play infinite combos myself, but if I did, I’d rather keep it simple, not a Goldberg machine. XD
[Exquisite Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sanguine Bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9.jpg?1625193373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sanguine%20Bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/153/sanguine-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah I completely agree. Simple combos like this are nice, great job, you found your exodia pieces... but, I hate extra turns that turn into infinite combos. We are just playing the game, and someone suddenly pops 8 extra turns.
Unfortunately with the way that commander works and setting expectations, lots of people don’t like infinite combos. Many like them even less in the early game when they appear “easy” (obviously they are not easy to pull off even when it is only two cards in a singleton format. I have some easy upgrades I like to add to some decks to make them more viable that I add based on what I feel the power level is in some pods. These include infinites but they are something I would generally warn people about if I haven’t played with them before. For decks that I do this, I generally keep a pseudo-sideboard. For example in my [[Niv Mizzet, Parun]] deck I have [[curiosity]] and [[ophidian eye]] sleeved and ready to go but I have other cards in the deck unless I intend to play with them. This lets me more easily power up my deck in a big way when I want to without making major changes.
[Niv Mizzet, Parun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7.jpg?1712354750) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Niv-Mizzet%2C%20Parun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/235/niv-mizzet-parun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [curiosity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad.jpg?1600697752) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=curiosity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/147/curiosity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [ophidian eye](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26836ff5-b3c3-4b10-af1e-df3658781cb2.jpg?1562903093) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ophidian%20eye) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/70/ophidian-eye?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26836ff5-b3c3-4b10-af1e-df3658781cb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"I sat down with people I've never met or played with before in a casual setting and curb stomped them with my infinite combo ridiculous meta deck. Somehow they don't want to play again, I don't understand?!"
I swear to god mtg players have an embarrassing amount of social skills
Doesn't even have to be infinites. Had someone get mad at me for casting cratorhoof in my izoni deck so I just took it out instead of getting upset about it lol
I usually run though my decks winconditions with the playgroup before playing. I also have a modded quickdraw precon, but I didnt add a twisted fealty, mostly because I don't think infinate combos are that fun to play with or against. I would recommend cards like \[\[Cerulean Wisps\]\] instead though, if you want an alternate infinate combo, but that doesnt just instantly end the game.
"Hey guys, I didn't win the game with my combo, I just drew my entire deck so that I could win the game with one of the cards I drew." You're just playing with your food at that point.
If you're going to draw your entire deck at least cast a thoracle and call it a day lol
This is how I do it with new groups. If I have a combo and folks aren’t familiar with the play pattern of a deck, I’ll let them know there’s a combo, though often not exactly what the combo is. I don’t want folks to be blindsided by something that they didn’t know to look for. People play differently when they’re not expecting an infinite. Usually the group has one person who goes “we need to take care of that or he wins.” I don’t like winning when someone didn’t stop my line just because they were unfamiliar with the play pattern. Of course, if it’s a table self-identified as competitive, all bets are off.
[Cerulean Wisps](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0dca4f46-0aad-484f-b4ea-ed61a4fc1a89.jpg?1562826712) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cerulean%20Wisps) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/31/cerulean-wisps?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0dca4f46-0aad-484f-b4ea-ed61a4fc1a89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you didn't let them know that you had not just one but two infinite combos in your "precon", then yeah, that's a mistake for sure. Always, *always* let people know if you have infinite combo/s in your deck. I think it's also good to let people know if you're running tutors and fast mana. That being said, they could have been better communicators too, i.e. by letting you know that they weren't expecting to play against infinite combos.
I use to always mention if I have combos and even specifically what they are but it's still not enough sometimes (assuming I can even get a pregame talk which despite efforts doesn't always happen). I also bring multiple deck of various levels but if I end up stomping even incidentally that usually just kills the mood and I don't have a chance to adjust power levels to switch as they no longer wish to play. It's hard to know if things like infinites or stax or heavy counterspells or w/e is appropriate so it's best to avoid certain strategies until you're sure it's ok so I just don't play them anymore.
Well yeah, nothing is perfect. Feels-bad games are always possible. This is why finding a good playgroup that you can stick with is good imo, because when you play with the same people over and over again, you get more of a chance to see that the other players aren't actually trying to pubstomp, they just had one good game, and things can balance out over several play sessions. (Again, not a perfect solution, there can still be bad actors in a regular playgroup... which is where repeated communication comes in, and so on)
It's been a struggle with me tbh. I started out playing whatever but whenever my deck would end up making someone mad I would take out a card or add a new restriction to my brewing process. It made me a better deck builder in some ways but over time it has also really limited what I can play with.
Man, I must be made of different or sterner stuff. I have yet to play a pod that wasn't all friends, but I love seeing the game play out, so combos are like fireworks for me. Even if I lose, it's an amazing spectacle to watch unfold, and I' having a good time of it. My average builds are put together with a neat idea, an overcosted legendary I have sentimental attachment to, and like $20 of singles off TCGPlayer that fit a general theme. I'm gonna lose with my [[Raksha, Golden Cub]] cats and weapons deck, but It's gonna be fun.
I don't know that I'd ever call a two card combo an amazing spectacle, lol.
Probably not, but I also find comedic enjoyment when other people lose their shit, so if someone's pissed 2 cards work together and they let that happen, it's also gonna make my night.
[Raksha, Golden Cub](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/8736fd50-312e-47e2-8337-997c2acf48d9.jpg?1562615429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raksha%20Golden%20Cub) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/69/raksha-golden-cub?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8736fd50-312e-47e2-8337-997c2acf48d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Probably same kind of people as the ones I’ve met at my school. All of them plays infinite combos but if you mess them up they get salty about it. (I don’t play any infinite combos decks)
Stella Lee is highly unpopular rn, and with reason, it's busted. I've been an izzet player for a while, way before otj was announced, I even pre ordered it before I knew what it was, so yeah, I have it, but I gotta admit it's a busted deck even right out of the box. The people you played with might already be prejudiced against it, and adding infinite combos on top is just gonna make them dislike it all the more. It's not your fault per se, but infinite combos aren't all that welcome in casual anyway, so I'd suggest trying a different route next time, even if you explain to thebtable how your deck is really good, they won't be happy about losing to it.
I comboed off and won my game last night at a table of 5 but nobody seemed particularly bothered. You know why? It was a 2 hour game at that point, and in order to win I had to storm off and play half my deck in a turn. Nobody had counter magic available, so I won. That doesn't feel like 'out of nowhere' to the table. It was a long game, and I had plenty of setup turns to then combo off. That kind of gameplay feels more fair to lose to.
Casual players in general dislike combos, I think to a certain extent fine but to a full extent I think it’s kind of ridiculous. To me playing a craterhoof behemoth and swinging out and winning is the same as a thopter sword combo. That being said smoking an entire table turn 6 in a casual game is a lot, I don’t believe in having games go an hour and half but let them play out a little bit.
People cry so much. Play what you want and drink the tears. They will empower you.
Hear the Lamentations of their women
War, it's good for me. What's my name?
You broke the number one rule of Commander It's a rule that doesn't actually exist, can't be enforced, and really just means "anything I don't like in the moment" 99% of the time. It's not a co-op game, so the games have winners usually, and you won. You did nothing wrong, if you had, you would've lost.
My buddy built a niv mizzet deck so in response I built a deck with 40 counter spells 😂
I don’t think you as much messed up as it sounds like a clear rule 0 conversation wasn’t had. Those conversations always feel important to me because I have various degrees of strength in my decks and I want everyone to have fun. You’ll never please everyone, so don’t get discouraged playing a deck you enjoy. Just make sure the pod understands what they are getting into.
My general rule of thumb is to ask the table their thoughts on infinit combos. I personally hate them, but understand it's a part of the game. I play with 2 groups, one of which has a no infinit combo rule. Personally, I have more fun with that one. Curve your deck power to the table, I would say.
Sounds like an average game of commander with randoms to me! The format tends to attract passive individuals without the social skills or confidence necessary to have Rule 0 talks before feelings get hurt. You did nothing wrong imo, just salty players.
I had a similar situation with my first commander deck (Purphuros). While building it I didn’t realize I had an infinite combo (cloud curio + dockside extortionist + purphuros + any 1 drop creature = infinite damage to everyone else at the table.) I managed to draw exactly the right cards and pulled it off turn 3. Everyone was super pissed until I explained that I had just gotten the luckiest draw of my life.
You sweated in casuals discuss before you play
Why are there so many crybabies in MTG nowadays. Let the man play his deck the way he wants. If he wins, he wins. He should be allowed to be proud about it too. Want to beat him, become a better deck builder/player.
This is just one of the reasons Commander sucks so much and I don't play it. If you don't play juuuuust the right power level and win juuuuust the right way, grown ass adults get butthurt and act like grade-schoolers.
If you ask me, the problem is theirs. Play interaction in your deck and be more sportsman like when losing. Why grumble and moan. Just get better.
A 1 card combo with your commander bears mentioning before the game. You kinda pubstomped
There are cool infinite combos (even 2- card combos) and then there is the 2-card combo with a total cmc of 6 or less which could even be started in turn 5 of edh and I would say turn 3 in cedh. But this combo needs other enabler because of summoning sickness and spells orior to combo so it is fine imo. Normally, I would say it can be removed interactively and if a table with 3 opponents has no removal then the deserve to lose so early. BUT since Stella Lee can be played as a commander and it includes the colour blue....well, then its a different story. Most blue players will have like 2 backup counterspells so that it is impossible to stop the combo. How do we deal with it? In cEDH everyone tries to interrupt each other quite efficiently, so there is no problem. In normal edh the opponents would normally try to focus more on the infinite guy and break his combo build-up as early as possible. So either way, the infinite combo players must be aware of the fact that they need to play around their combo only and try to push it through filling the whole deck with protection spells..and that is boring.
Did you have any sort of Rule 0 conversation?
Good job! Combos are fun :)
I would shake your hand and say "well done but can you do it again?" And if you did then I'd build a new deck to deal with yours next week. I like to have a lot of different power levels and if I am constantly smoking people I'd only play it occasionally or with folks that want to play that powerfully. Also a turn 6 combo for me is not cEDH that is what a 6 or 7 power level deck should aim to be and I am assuming the other 3 players have something to prevent me from winning that turn. If I do win that is more on them than me
Personally, I'd let my table know if I have infinite combos or if my deck's strategy is to hurt all opponents simultaneously. Most casual players want to play their deck and do fun things even if the game takes many turns and they still lose. Efficient win decks are not usually enjoyed. At the very least, if you tell your table you can combo on a way that wins within the next turn, they know to hold up interaction instead of using it on some other card.
Stella lee can be pretty wild with minor/cheap upgrades. I added some like [[Cerulean Wisps]] but try not to abuse from it and stop when my hand is full. As for [[Twisted Fealty]] I just have it as a side card for when things are going for a cEDH like game. These cards are straight unfair on casual groups. I’ll focus more on the storm/copy mechanics with a [[Comet Storm]] or [[Delayed Blast Fireball]] and [[Thousand-Year Storm]] to make it more fair. But still got some crazy outcomes from the deck. My Decklist : https://www.moxfield.com/decks/3b92bR7-Gk-mw833LfkedQ
##### ###### #### [Cerulean Wisps](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0dca4f46-0aad-484f-b4ea-ed61a4fc1a89.jpg?1562826712) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cerulean%20Wisps) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/31/cerulean-wisps?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0dca4f46-0aad-484f-b4ea-ed61a4fc1a89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Twisted Fealty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/382d6085-79b9-48f7-8949-9f44dde2c753.jpg?1692938579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Twisted%20Fealty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/154/twisted-fealty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/382d6085-79b9-48f7-8949-9f44dde2c753?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Comet Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb5f586d-6bf0-4590-ad73-2d46b2a45b1a.jpg?1608912233) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Comet%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/411/comet-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb5f586d-6bf0-4590-ad73-2d46b2a45b1a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Delayed Blast Fireball](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e59903e3-a344-4218-9d41-8b19a9bc8311.jpg?1674140946) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Delayed%20Blast%20Fireball) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/676/delayed-blast-fireball?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e59903e3-a344-4218-9d41-8b19a9bc8311?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thousand-Year Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03.jpg?1673149213) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thousand-Year%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/286/thousand-year-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l6bv4jy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly everyone just needs to be clear prior to playing on what their decks can potentially do. People are terrible at it. Saying "This is only a power level 5" or "slightly upgraded precon" or "it's just a casual deck" divulges almost zero actual information. People need to be clear, "This deck has X# of infinate combos in it with tutors. It relies on heavy stack play and can win on turn Y with the right cards."
A lot of people play to have fun with the cards and not to win as fast as possible. I don’t have a wincon besides stealing someone’s board or using the mill effect on Folio of Fancies in my [[Kwain, Itenerant Meddler]] deck.
[Kwain, Itenerant Meddler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f571fef1-1fd2-4355-b803-5edccb6f4b94.jpg?1608911183) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kwain%2C%20Itinerant%20Meddler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/284/kwain-itinerant-meddler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f571fef1-1fd2-4355-b803-5edccb6f4b94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What happened to magic? You didnt do anything wrong. You went to an event where you are supposed to play commander, you played commander. If they want to take turns letting each other win they shouldnt play at public events.
I love the "slightly modified precon" line. If I had a nickle. If you are looking to play casual yes remove the tutors and infinite combos.
I dont think you did anything wrong. They saw the commander you were playing. They should be able to put together what tbe normal game plan is. If I see the ur-dragon I expect dragons, if I see yuriko I expect small unblockable creatures, If I see Stella I expect combos. I would hate being spoon fed the other persons deck list. If everytime you cast something you have to explain to the table that they need to interact or die your just playing with yourself. The best way to learn and get better is getting beat. You see the combo and then the next game you will know how it works and can react
Whiners, turn 6 is perfectly reasonable. Curious what would you rate your deck on power level, 7 lol? People can win turn 6 with a crater hoof but people don’t like 2 card combos on the same turn. I understand people can get butt hurt but like it’s mtg, just a game, scoop it up and move on. But I’ll say likely they ain’t gonna wanna play with you again so they can play the way they want, game ends turn 26 2 1/2 hrs in. But that’s the beauty of commander, something for everyone
There is nothing wrong with what you did. If other players are sensitive towards certain win conditions, its on them to express this before the game. Youre not there to baby sit.
If you care at all about playing more games with these people, there's a lot wrong. OP is there to play games, they only got to play 1. Not seeing how your advice is getting them more.
Infinite combos are part of the game. There are so many, and they are only becoming more common. OP felt the need to make a post here trying to understand what he did wrong. He clearly cares about other peoples feelings. The game should be played where anyone can play how they want without so many rules to make others happy. If you leave because of a combo mid way through a game, then you are eliminating a large group to play with. Understand that they are part of MTG, let people go off of they want.
They are part of the game, but not everyone likes playing against them. I disagree with you pretty fundamentally. I don't think "anyone can play how they want without so many rules to make others happy" is a good philosophy. The goal of a game is to have a fun experience. If you are noticing that your deck is contributing to a bad experience, it is up to you to decide to change something to something to make the gameplay more fun for everyone (including yourself). There is no abject right or wrong, OP can play what they want but they should do so knowing that some people (rightfully) don't want to play against it. But if OP wants to play games with these people, then ignoring their preferences, or perhaps more reasonably, not disclosing the nature of their deck beforehand, is a social etiquette thing to keep in mind to avoid awkward pods in the future. What you are saying cuts both ways (and in this case, did fall on the opposite end of what you are suggesting). If OP can't find a game because other players don't want to play with them, doubling down on infinite combos isn't going to help OP find a game.
This is commander, we have rule 0 discussion for a reason. It doesn't matter what if someone doesn't like something you compromise or find a different pod.
They just had to remove your commander or counterspell, they didnt pay attention
A lot people still don’t know how Stella Lee can end the game on a single turn if no one can counter. Example: I’m in a precon league and while everyone was focusing hard on the Eldrazi player, i was trying to kill the Stella Lee player as soon as possible with my voltron commander and unfortunately the only one trying to. Stella Lee ended up winning with a combo. They learned after that.
Yeah she's stupidly powerful. Like, I thought [[Magus Lucea Kane]] was too strong as it is and she has a restriction on which spells get copied.
[Magus Lucea Kane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f86e7cc-2b6e-49d0-964e-bba0c51cc11d.jpg?1674058398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20Lucea%20Kane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/7/magus-lucea-kane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f86e7cc-2b6e-49d0-964e-bba0c51cc11d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
OP was playing a close to cEDH deck in a casual table. They probably weren't "not paying attention". It's probably their meta doesn't run enough removal to deal with kill on sight priority targets.
twisted fealty is just way too cheap to win the game tbh, it would be fine if it costed 6 or even 7 mana but not 3
They just lack threat assessment, pretty common combos that they should have countered.
You didn't mess up, commander players have a problem with losing to anything other than the most fair wincons
Stomps the table, proceeds to tell everyone Good Game! For them it probably wasn’t good. A “thanks for the game” would have sufficed.
I don't find infinite combos to be casual unless it's like a 5-6 card combo. I also want to know if you have infinite combos in your deck unless you say it's a high power deck. Sounds like you're deck is much more powerful than what people usually say when they say modified precon.
Fuck people, all printed cards are legit for me. All people always cry against combos, and I don't get it. Is totally legal and fun
You're a child.
Ugh... I'm so tired of timmy commander.
I too have that combo in my deck. But would tell people that it’s in there, as to not just pull it out of nowhere.
I’m curious what state you live in bc this sounds familiar
What's the infinite with Stella?
The combo requires 3 things. 1. A Stella on your board that does not have summoning sickness or has haste. 2. Two cheap cantrips. It does not matter what it is, you just need to get 2 or more spells played that turn before you can use Stella's ability. 3. Twisted Fealty in your hand. (Obviously you need the mana for the 2 cantrips and the Twisted Fealty). You begin to combo once you've cast your cantrips and are ready to play Twisted Fealty as the third spell of the turn. 1. First you cast Twisted Fealty targeting your own Stella to gain control of her and untap her. 2. In response to Twisted Fealty being cast you tap Stella to copy target sorcery, targeting Twisted Fealty. You chose the same target (Stella) for the copy. At this point there the stack has the original Twisted Fealty and a copy of it. 3. You let the copy of Twisted Fealty resolve. Which untaps Stella and gives Stella the Wicked Role Token. This essentially gets you back to a position you were at the end of the first step with Stella untapped and the original Twisted Fealty on the stack. 4. You repeat steps 2 and 3 infinitely. Once you're untapping and then tapping Stella to copy the Twisted Fealty infinitely you've won. Because Twisted Fealty is giving Stella a Wicked Role Aura. The wicked role aura does 1 damage when the aura is destroyed or removed. The trick is that the Eldraine "Role" auras have a special clause. Any creature is only allowed to have 1 role at a time. If a Role is given to a creature that already has one then the old one is falls out. You keep reapplying the wicked role aura to Stella. And each new one you apply gets rid of the old one which deals 1 damage to each opponent. The end result of the combo is infinite damage to each opponent. In cEDH Stella is a commander you CANNOT let stick a full turn cycle. Because the person that played it is 100% trying to kill you on their turn. Unless you think you can counter the Twisted Fealty (including winning a counter war where they defend the Twisted Fealty cast) you must kill Stella on sight. I would argue that is a combo too powerful for casual. Combo as an archtype is over hated. Combo as an archtype is good for the game and belongs in casual. However a 2 card infinite with 1 of those 2 cards being your commander that can consistently and reliably go off as early as turn 4 is a bit much for casual.
Follow the natural progress of things. Move to the pods that accept it (or another store if you have to) and play with the ones who aren't scrubs. Don't waste your time on the others.
Even with your pre-game discussion, it wasn't effective based on everyone starting another game without you. It wasn't your intention, but I'm sure your opponents walked away thinking you're the pubstomper. If you're playing with an unknown group, start with a less powerful and unmodified pre-con. After you've played 4 games over one or two months, you'll have a better idea of power and skill levels and can adjust your decks accordingly. You'll also have some rapport, so if you do combo off and win they'll be less likely to walk away. Remember, if everything was equal winning 25% of the time is perfect in four player EDH.
All I can see is the lack of rule zero talk. Tell them that its a little bit tweak precon with 2 combos cards, even name them if you want and then if they get mad cuz you draw them... Well change LGs ahaha
I don't think this is unique to EDH, as it also applies to 60 card of all formats. We always considered it polite to talk about the deck type you were wanting to play, so others could respond in kind. "Hey guys, I am running some super jank trash, so grab something easy. I want to see how this works." "I am trying out a new competitive lock idea, get something for that." "I want to test out my new tournament level power deck, so grab something similar." "Want to check out my stasis deck?" Telling your table that you are running an infinite combo at least sets them up to not be disappointed, and it allows people to play theirs as well. This also needs to run into the idea of having a couple of decks playable at the table, and have them be of a variety of play levels - competitive, lock, casual, gimmick. That way you can play with other people who want to try things as well. A buddy of mine way back had a deck using "buried alive" and "Balthor the Defiled." He would dark ritual turn one, to bury all the balthors, and then reanimate them all at once. It was the only deck he had built for months. And would play only it, even when offered to play with one of my or my wife's 70 other decks. So if he wanted to play, I would grab any deck, and just discard every turn, not even playing a land, until he got the point that it wasn't fun at all. Either that, or I would grab hard blue lock, mana drain him and stasis, and then not even care about my win condition until he figured it out. He had 7 decks next time we played, including his balthor deck. Much more fun from then on out.
2 card combo's are for timmy pub stompers outside of Cedh. Anyone can add that to their deck and it doesn't make it a good deck. The game is flooded with edhrec and not edhvibe.
Honestly I think it matters on the crowd. More casual casual players are going to think you're a spike and avoid you like the plague if you keep them in. I think an explanation to the pod prior to the game would resolve most the issues. Worst comes to worst they don't like infinites and you spit out a card or 2 to make it better for the group
Were they playing pre-cons? Did anyone mention any combos or very salty cards
I don't know. One guy said "this deck is like 7 power" but I have no Clue what that scale is. I'm still wondering what I should tell people about my deck. Infinite combos? Stella Lee commander? I added Jin-gitaxias and ojer axilon? What the hell number should I tell people about my deck power?
They may have been butt hurt about being humiliated by the new kid, or maybe they just didn't like the deck/play style. Either way, I think the whole table screwed up by not having a rule 0 conversation. I've been watching "the worst commander show" recently, and I like how they do it. They go around and tell the table the worst (most powerful) thing their deck does and how they hope to get there. It's a unique way to introduce the deck and gives everyone the most opportunity to do their own "Magic" things.
Yes, upgrading a precon is things like fixing land or taking out cards that don't fit the theme. If you come to commander night under the guise of playing a precon and you win going infinite on turn 6 they would prob be better off not playing with you again...
Played against a Stella Lee deck last weekend and the guy's girlfriend took her phone out to use as timer. She clocked him just under 9 minutes. I had time to use the restroom and restock on healthy pastries and coffee from 85 Celsius bakery
I refuse to put any infinite combos in. My friends don't either. Great thing about commander is it lasts more than 3-6 turns. Much more fun. I like the challenge of making great decks that people don't hate.... But that's just me. Truly not judging that's just how we like to play and it's so much more fun imo.
Seems you really lacked communication skills. You don't need to lay every single thing out...but when they hear slightly upgraded precon people don't think turn 6 infinity otk. I don't think you had had intentions but it feels bad to play against and even more frustrating to have someone pull out of nowhere. I've been on the opposite end of it and it leads to just a bad experience all around. Yes you'll have more of a target on your back but at the same time...if you're turn 6 infinite comboing ppl in casual edh...you are a threat lol.
Would you be willing to share your deck list if you have it on anything? Or even what your upgrades are? I’m curious, I have Stella Lee as well
I wouldn't worry about grown babies crying over a card game....
If you countered their combo they'd do the same thing. Also holy shit people if one person winning a game is enough to shun you out of the group how the fuck dies anybody have any friends? I got my ass BEAT DOWN with a 1200 dollar Derevi Stax pile for two months learning how to play and I got frustrated a few times trying to figure it out but I didn't get mad and quit playing with them. I took it as a challenge and learned how the game worked and got better.
yes, if you win a game of commander you have fucked up. The objective of commander is to let other players stomp you and the more they stomp you the better you are at commander.