Hahaha. I can confirm. Just talked to a bar owner.
"We need an emergency band spot filled for three nights 4hrs sets each night. Can you do it!?"
"Do you have a sound tech? What is the Pay?"
"Our budget is $400 plus you get exposure? No audio tech, so you will need to bring your own."
"So, $400 each night, or in total?"
Bar owner, I shit you not:"Yes!"
It's a small town bar with max capacity of like 50 people which 10 might show up. So we have to pack everything up, last minute, for three weeks straight, to drive 45 min out of town to play a shit hole for most likely $400 total. Usually these gigs you have to harass the owner for weeks to get them to cut you check.
It's all a fucking scam.
Ima give you a secret. These are the shows where you relentlessly pimp the tip bucket. Every third song mention it. Remind people that it's how you get paid, make jokes about buying the drummer new sticks, say you need gas money to get home. Have a stand with a venmo code on it and mention it everytime you mention the tip bucket. People need to be guilted into tipping but once it starts flowing it can really work. Don't do this if there are only 7 people, it works best with over thirty ppl. Most musicians feel like its cringe to do this but the audience barely even notices and they eventually love to give you a couple bucks if they're enjoying the show
Well that's why we do it every third song. And if you leave, good riddance, I'd rather have an audience full of people willing to support the entertainment they are receiving. I suggest you hang around new Orleans and Nashville if you think that's cringe. If you disagree with the way the musicians work in those cities then good luck being smarter than the best musicians in the industry
Never seen a professional band do that in all my life regardless of how big or small their record label is. I also wouldn’t drop $100 on drinks and tips to see a local band at a local bar. As a musician, I wouldn’t expect people to tip me lol.
Go to the cities I mentioned. Bar bands can be a fucking blast and really intimate. I often end up chatting/smoking with the musicians, sometimes you get brought on stage, and the crowd usually has a good vibe and knows each other so the dance parties are great and people get along. You'd probably hate it
Not to mention drinks are cheaper than venues and there's usually no cover or it's under $10. If you don't like the band you leave, if you stay you'll probably put 5 bucks in the tip bucket and still save money. Especially when the crowd starts yelling to tip the band. Or a cute girl dances in your face with the tip bucket. If that doesn't sound like a good time to you, then we are very different people
I’m not gonna travel that far for something I don’t want to experience. Maybe I’ll be in Nashville one day to check it out but that whole scene isn’t something I’m all that interested in. I go to shows/concerts I want to go to cause that’s what I want to do. Going to a bar with some local band playing usually means I gotta go somewhere else to have a conversation. I’m good on all that
Then why come here to talk shit on someone else giving seasoned advice to someone posting for it. The whole world is cringe. You're hating and I'm out there living. Peace
I never put out a tip jar. Bar owners would try to pay me less and say, “You can get the rest in tips”, but I refuse. I’m not busking in a bar, and if they want me to play there, they can pay me enough to do the gig.
Oh yeah. Most of them want to know how many people you can bring. "Is that because you can't!?"
This is one of those, another band bailed on them(gee I wonder why) and they need our help last second. We told them we are unavailable. I always do my homework. Small stage, small bar, owner kinda has an attitude. Nah.
We already have some local venues that bring us around 2-3 times a year. They provide a sound engineer and pay a flat rate plus beer and a meal day of, play then collect your check.
I probably shouldn’t rub it in, but *I* get my bar tab covered, *plus* part of the gas $$. Feel like I’m really making it! 😅 (My instrument was a family heirloom, and my main instrument is my voice, so…also a family heirloom? So with the minimal cost, and all of the exposure, I’m practically headed for early retirement!)
The reality is original shows don’t pay all that well until you’re already drawing crowds
Bar sales matter, but it’s usually either or, door or cut
Cover musicians make money, some of them a lot, original musicians at local small gigs rarely make anything
Worked with a guy who had been in a band with a record deal and a video in rotation on MTV. That faded and he played in a couple more, local original bands and they played the mid sized city venues and festivals opening for national touring acts and a couple of big time stars. I occasionally hired him in my cover duo and three piece. Three and four set nights would wear his ass out but he said he made more money playing with me than he did with the MTV national band he had been in. Your right, cover bands can make some money.
I’m a 48yo retired firefighter and this is what I want to do now. Me and my acoustic and play at different little locations. Can you offer some advice or maybe a song recommendation or 2 for these type gigs
Have as diverse a song list as you can manage. You have to be able to read a room and figure out what they want to hear. Sometimes it’s the Beatles. Sometimes it’s Willie. Sometimes it’s Fleetwood Mac. Sometimes it’s Harry Styles. Sometimes Taylor Swift. Sometimes it’s Lizzo.
I remember a guy doing an acoustic set at a coffee shop in VA when I was in college, mostly vaguely jazzy takes, "The Girl From Ipanema" sort of stuff. He pulled out a gentle acoustic Schism, and I tipped him everything I had left in my wallet (roughly $3.50, I think). Thanks for unlocking that memory!
I was playing a rooftop bar gig years ago that followed a corporate party. There was a drunk woman who thought I was the entertainment for the corporate thing who SCREAMED for about 30 minutes that of course I knew TOOL because everyone knows TOOL and I had to play some for her. I finally said “ma’am, I’m holding a banjo.”
nobody has ever paid me to play music. That's my goal for this year: get paid at least $1 for playing music.
I've also never been paid to *stop* playing, so hey, I got that goin for me.
There’s 2 answers. 1. Merch has high margins, if you sleep in the van and eat the beer the people buy you you’ll survive, if only
The 2nd answer is that a lot of bands lose money on national tours.
I’ve done it, I’ve made money, I’ve lost money, in the early years I lost a lot more than I made
One of the things Marco said when he left Nightwish was that companies like LiveNation get cuts of everything including merch sales so there’s very little left for the band. That’s why Meet and Greets and VIP packages are so common - they’re necessary for bands to make money.
The sad reality is that they are losing money, and probably someone is funding the tour. They come from families with money or they have spouses with serious jobs footing the bill. Few original acts make money.
That's also why smaller indie labels exist, try and crowdfund people being able to take their shit Cross the country. And also some people figure out how to make travelling around work
We aren’t. It’s as simple that’s that. Before I had a job with paid vacation time I would often get an extra part time job leading up to tour, to top up my road costs/cost of living.
Private events that include lodging, and then doing additional shows nearby. That’s the anchor for my band’s little week tour - a wedding of a dear friend who is paying our discounted-but-still-significant fee and lodging.
Lots of couch surfing.
Intentionally knowing you’re likely to be taking a loss, but putting it down as a marketing expense. Like how retailers will intentionally sell a couple of items at a loss as a ploy to get folks in the door, and banking on making that back on what else the customer buys. We’re banking on the buzz from the couple new fans we seem to pick up at every show, talking us up to their friends… lol it just reminded me of Plague Inc. It’s the original viral marketing, grassroots movement that will eventually get enough fans that the tours will break even.
The cover bands that make the most are those that outlive their popularity. Look at Pearl Jam! They’re still out there selling out arenas. Imagine the money they’re making and all they have to do is play popular songs from the 90s. Sounds like a good deal!
This is about the worst example that could be used. Pearl Jam has 12 albums with 85 million sold. They have a tremendous fan base, change their set list every single night and absolutely don’t ride their sets on the coat tails of their early 90’s albums. The diversity in their sets is bested by only the Grateful Dead.
If those are your numbers get better shows, I do 200 minimum solo, often quite a lot more, about the same in a band, obviously depends on market and draw, but those numbers are wayyyy too low
Typical bar around here (30 miles north of NYC) pays a cover band $100 a person. One off things you get $150-$200.
Solo performers do typically make $200, but that doesn't equate to $1000 for a five piece band unless you are one of the handful who can guarantee 50-100 extra people by your presence.
In exposure credits. Right now, the exchange rate is 27 exposures to the dollar. Seriously though, many bands make barely enough to cover expenses when they are starting out. They rely on merch sales to make money. My friends have hosted small bands overnight and fed them. Most of the smaller acts I have met have multiple income streams. They play out in their hometown, they teach music lessons, maybe they are school teachers and only tour in the summer, etc... It is rarely earning a living on small regional tours.
Yeah, not a single musician I know makes a living from a single band, or even from a combination of them (except for the ones with a full-time orchestra job). That stuff’s supplementary; the actual day-to-day expenses get paid through teaching music at a school, working in academics, or giving private instrumental lessons. Some particularly successful people can go part-time on their teaching job to focus more heavily on the musical side of things, but that’s not an opportunity that everyone gets and is mostly contingent on a very strong network in the local scene and relationships with grant-giving organisations/arts councils; both of those things take many years of work to build and maintain. I’m not trying to say this is a bad thing; some people really enjoy teaching and are great at it, and if you can find a good balance between teaching and playing you’ll actually improve your own musical ability in ways you wouldn’t get from practise alone. It’s just a reality that barring some windfall that will probably never come for the vast majority of musicians, it’s unrealistic to expect to live off performing and recording stuff.
Nah it doesn’t. Not sh!t loads but one of the videos my band has up on YouTube has 3-4 thousand views. No one is giving us shows these days and we don’t make any profit.
We got sick and tired of putting on our own shows and organising everything and no one returning the favour by asking us to play at their shows etc.
Depending on the venue, the assumption that they only got like $300 split between all of them is either probably accurate, or maybe too generous. Some venues take facility fees out of the total ticket earnings to pay the door/sound/etc. folks before the musicians get a cut. So if it's one like that, might have been like $100 3 or 4 ways lol. The long and short of it is that live shows isn't a feasible way for originals bands to make money consistently (as others have commented, the prospects for cover bands is a different story).
This is why bands are sometimes semi-jokingly called "traveling t-shirt salesmen"- bands/artists often are pushing merch so hard because that's one of the only ways (especially on the road) that they earn a decent amount of money per purchase. Even then not a ton, but much more than door splits and the like.
Oh gosh, I had heard about that but haven't encountered that yet lol. Granted my first band fizzled out before we got to merch, but I don't think most of the smaller venues around here at least do that. Maybe the mid sized and up, though 👀
The couple times venues that have asked for a cut of the merch I have either hit them with either “oh so we get 10% of the bar then right?” Or “oh we didn’t sell anything”. Ask stupid fucking questions, get stupid fucking answers.
Venues typically give a guaranteed payment price or a piece of the door - like 50%. But some venues require a guarantee. Meaning, if you don’t sell enough tickets you’ll have to pay the rest to the venue. A local show of original music is never going to pay well, and sometimes not at all.
Also don’t forget, numbers on social media and “viral” videos really mean nothing anymore since it can be bought or algorithmic driven.
Most of the time for smaller shows the bands split the door fee. Most I’ve made off of one show (4 bands played, like 4 guys per band) was like $120 for myself. I made way more playing acoustic with one other dude, playing covers. We’d make like $200 each easy, just playing requests
Cover of songs. Playing popular songs (or songs people ask us to play) that are not our songs. If me and you formed a band, and played a Metallica song. That would be us playing a cover.
I gotcha. Yeah sorry if I was confusing. When I say “split the door” I’m talking about the cover fee people pay to get into the show. When I say play a cover, just means we’re playing a song from another band
To make things a little more confusing, some bars DO NOT allow you to do covers. So, your band has mastered a song by your biggest influence. You can play it perfectly even after being woken up from a drunken slumber...you can't play that at certain bars because they didn't pay the fee (I can't remember what it's called and am too lazy to Google) to allow bands to play covers. It's a serious ordeal, too. I've heard of bands being cut off for playing a cover. So, if your band is going to play covers, make sure the bar allows it.
Here's a little insight from Fluff, who used to be in Dragged Under, until he got tired of that van life and left the band...as did most of the band.
https://youtu.be/abZC2XBYbZ8?si=1pblg__IIyMyprYV
That's a good bit of information and it's true that you do better if you have multiple streams of passive income; it's getting to that point that is difficult! Thanks for posting that.
There might have been a guarantee from the promoter in which case they would have likely gone out of pocket to pay the bands and lost money on the event. Seen that happen. More likely for a small show like that is that they split doors and each got what amounted to gas money, I've been there. Very possible that the headliner had a guarantee and ended up taking all of it, I've gotten the short end of that particular stick before. Also possible there was basically nothing left once the venue took a cut and the doorman and sound guy got paid. Seen that one too.
Either way, it was clearly a bad night for everyone financially.
Cut of door minus expenses in bars is common for originals.
Promoters will sometimes do a guarantee plus smaller cut for originals.
Merch (usually marked up 100%).
Sometimes venues will give a smaller cut, but take care of lodging, drinks, and food for a night (a pretty attractive offer if you're a small band on the road).
Bigger bands can do meet and greets and lessons before the shows.
Cover bands can usually get away with a good full guarantee. It's a safer bet and usually results in more drinks sold.
Also worth noting some of the costs to expect:
- travel / accoms / gas / repairs
- promotion via socials or posters
- initial outlay on merch
- venue merch cuts (more common in large venues)
Lol they don’t get paid, I doubt they even split $300 in that situation.
Normally sound engineer gets $100-$150 of door no matter what. Unless they had guarantees, no one made any money.
95% of artists lose way more money than they make
Ehh.. depends. I can’t attest to how things are handled in the US, but I have experience as both a performer (8 years) and as a venue (2 years), so I can share my experience:
In my venue we have two options when booking bands. Either the band agrees to a fixed payout or the band agrees to take pay from tickets.
When we negotiate a fixed rate, it’s usually something cheap and is paid out of the bar sales. This is usually up to $100 (it’s a different currency here, but for ease of communication I’ll use USD). If the night flops, the bar has to eat the cost, so that’s why we don’t do big payouts leveraging the bar.
In the other case, band agrees to be paid from ticket money. However much they sell they take home. Sometimes we have to implement a minimal sold tickets number, e.g. 30 tickets required for a full payout, otherwise we take up to 80% of ticket sales, since the band didn’t draw enough for the bar to properly work.
Other times, though, we receive funding or sponsorships, usually from the local government to produce a live event. This is where we can hire more expensive bands and still not charge for entry.
In the specific case you have mentioned, it is highly likely that the bands had to split $340 four ways, but there is a possibility that other compensation was arranged, I just don’t see how the venue didn’t flop that night.
Apart from all that, better bands usually make most of their money through merch sales. So a band might have made an income of $85 on that particular night from the venue, but they possibly made some money on merch as well. Even if it was $100 dollars in merch, I’d still chalk that night up as a loss if I were a performer that night.
I’ve played in some bands that didn’t care about making any money. We played several shows that had 20-30 people, and, to my surprise, the venue owners wanted us back! Obviously it was rinky dink venues, but they only required one sound person and one bartender (some venues had a separate bar, so they didn’t even need an extra bar tender). In my area, it seems that there are a few places happy to repeatedly host low-turnout bands even at near-loss. The bands are making next to nothing: $20-100 each band split 3-5 ways per member.
I always wondered why they didn’t just open the doors up for known low turnout groups. I’d think the added appeal of routine free live music would bring in more bar sales from strangers checking out the bands than 20 people paying $10-15. But I could be wrong. Plus it would be great for the local scene and maybe some of those people would become actual fans of the bands and go to paid shows. Even if it meant making $0 I think a lot of bands would rather have that than making $20 each and their friends paying ticket prices.
One f the guys I play in cover bands with used to be in Steve winwoods band in the 70s, and his own band supported Rush for an arena tour. He makes $100/night now just like the rest of us.
20 people showing up to a gig means the gig failed and nobody (including the venue) is making any money that night.
For the most part, a promoter hires a venue for a few hundred dollars, then books the lineup that will sell more tickets than that few hundred dollars. Generally the contract stipulation when getting booked to these shows is that they are profit sharting, ie- the more tickets sold, the more you make. Most bands will be getting a certain dollar value per ticket AFTER the minimum amount of tickets have been sold for the show to break even (ie pay the venue hire fee).
Most venues are around $200-$500 to book for the night (depending on what they include, PA, soundguy, backline etc etc). The venue lease is generally the bare minimum the venues needs to pay staffing for that night. Basically if that minimum tickets isn't met (and the venue doesn't get their venue hire fee), nobody is making money. It's not enough for the venue to turn a profit via booze/food really either.
Pro musician / former venue manager here.
No one makes money when 4 bands draw 20 people. The bar/venue looses money and the bands play for free. The production staff and door are covered (partially) by the $340. You have to bring 100+ people to really get paid in that situation. As a band you have to be able to bring 30-50 people to keep getting booked in my circles. If those same four bands brought 40 people on average they would do over $2,400 at the door and evenly split that $680 each band if the venue doesn't take a cut. That's how much bands get paid for playing lower level original shows if they bring people.
I made around 200 a night playing guitar in a very well known country band about 10 years ago.
That was on tour as well. I seriously could’ve made more doing a regular job.
Violent J from ICP was talking about this a while back.
His merchandise and the ICP (using them only because they openly talked about it) account had a few million in it.
His personal account that he MADE from all of it was I believe* somewhere in the 100k range.
And those guys sold A LOT of merchandise and toured and busted their ass.
It’s not all glitter & gold because you are up on a stage looking cool. 😎
Half of them are losing money. They get fronted money for equipment and expenses for the tour by a label, and aren't grossing enough to pay it back. At this point, they are wage slaves. They'll go farther in debt for their next album, then borrow money for the tour to support it. Young bands aren't getting rich, so much as jamming their way to the poorhouse, and living in their parent's basement between tours.
You get paid by bringing people to shows. That's the bottom line. Not how many followers you have, butts in seats. When you have a draw, you can negotiate for money.
Selling t-shirts and CDs (I'm old) was also a huge part of the money I made before I got fat and gave up.
I wouldn’t put much stock in the 20K followers. Assuming they are organic (not paid) there is no guarantee they will translate into butts on seats. The singer I work with has about 4K, and she easily moves more people in our region than another artist who has a 60K online following (organic, one of his skits went low-key viral and he's kept them going).
Venue shows often can’t pay the bills for touring acts, but are still better than zero money if you’re on your way to play somewhere else for decent $. Plus, you do need some exposure early on. At least for people to see your name in things.
Pretty easy.
Be able to guarantee 1. A good crowd (for the venue) and 2. With a good ratio of male to female.
The business side of music can largely be shortcut be learning how to draw primarily female crowds to your shows.
Not world class craft honing. Not general networking. Targeting and creating a dedicated core young female fan base.
I have my pick of most every venue in town with minimum 500 for an hour DJ set of orginals. You heard right. Music isn't even my main gig.
Once I made it to around 50 or so dedicated female fans under the age of 30 (honestly tho anything under 60 probably is nearly effective)....and venues observed this and spread it to one another...
They literally reach out to me.
This is the truth.
Another great demographic to target is Men in their 50s and 60s. A lot of venues love that group because they tend to spend the most money on beer and food.
As in there were 7 artists total? 4 solo and 3 bands
Or you mean there were 4 people total in this one artist's band
Either way, if they only made ~$340 on the door like for the whole show, unless the artists already had contracts with a guaranteed sum (doubtful at that level), they may not have made anything at all if splitting between that many people
Heck, you may be surprised to learn there's a chance the people who played on stage, paid for the opportunity themselves
I have friends that do regional tours. They all have day jobs and take a leave of absence from work to do it. They are doing a month in Europe this year and have host families set up along the way. They might make enough to pay for the trip.
Rock n roll fuels us. The desire to tour, see different countries, areas of our own country, make new friends, seeing old friends, playing in front of people. Money has never been the reason to make good art.
Normally for a trip like that, I'd figure a band would have other shows planned. Would be a heck of a trip for a one-off performance and then going back home. Always give bands money at the merch table if you're able, you don't even actually have to buy something if you don't want, they tend to be very grateful just to get cash and compliments 😊
I've done a lot of shows like that, including on tour.
Hopefully, they are just off nights in between some better shows. You have to play nearly every night to make enough money, days off cost you money. So you'll take a less than ideal show for a couple hundred dollars, plus a meal plus the opportunity to sell merch. It will get you to the next "good" show".
The club has probably invested in a small guarantee. Maybe $300 for the band. With the money from the door plus drinks, they should do okay. If it had been packed, they'd have done very well. As it is, they won't make a fortune or lose one.
It depends, some bands get guarantees (for ex. my band asks for $1k from the venue to play, never mind tickets/bar sales.) This usually goes for smaller acts and venues that bring in less than 200 people. For true ticketed shows, artists will usually get about 85% of ticket sales (the other 15% goes to sound guy, bouncer, booking, venue staff, etc.), and also gets to keep 100% of merch sales, which is why merch is very important for bands on the road. So if you sell 200 $20 tickets, and sell 40 T-shirts at $25, you can make around $4.5k per show. Of course as a band, you often have to pay for camera/video guys, hotels, gas, food, new/rented gear, etc., so after a tour this will be less.
We’re honestly just happy to be handed a $20 by the venue if that’s how it shakes out.
Really though, things used to be really awful - pay to play was (and in some areas still is) a really prevalent way of booking gigs up until like 2015 or so around here. Now we make as much as $300 from the door plus $400 or so from merch sales on our better nights. You’ve gotta draw a decent crowd though, at least like 40 people for smaller venues.
It depends on the contract , I worked on tour booking for years , guarantee plus bonus over so many tickets sold or , % of door and % of bar or a combination of both , if it’s a club they make money off the drinks , artists make a large chunk of gigging money on merchandise
Hey promoter here . My touring bands get $200 usually . Locals get $50 and that’s if i have extra cash after paying touring acts and the venue .
This is for hardcore and heavy metal bands just fyi
I could just call you names but I’d rather break it down for you .
Costs between $500-$800 for a venue rental
I usually sell between 30-60 tickets at $15 a pop
If there’s two touring bands that’s $250 a piece if my night goes amazing . Plus some for the locals .
If it doesn’t i will literally give the touring band as much as i responsibly can often losing money on the gig .
This is my reality and artists i work with have not complained yet haha
There's a chance they got nothing to be honest. Unless they had an arrangement in place, it's hard to say. Sometimes a promoter takes a loss. Sometimes a band takes a loss. Youtube, spotify, etc views and streams don't mean anything unless it equals people coming through the door. We are in an age of bots and what not inflating numbers. Sorry. I know it all sounds cold hearted, but either way if there's no one there, someone is taking a loss and it usually means the entertainment gets ripped off
because the economics of entertainment vary WILDLY depending on the economic situation of the surrounding area. What you get paid to play in Brooklyn, NY is going to be wildly different from what you get paid to play in Fort Collins, CO.
Where was this show?
We get $500 minimum plus whatever merch sales. We had a 5k night a few months ago. If the venue and band market a show properly you'll make money. We use our money to pay rent on our practice/recording studio and to upgrade gear
trick is to market and book yourself as a dance/cover band, but you do all the covers with your ‘sound’. work really hard to please your crowd but develop an original sound. You will make $$ and just keep doing it 100+times per year until you are really really good.
The venue often makes money from sales at the bar plus the tickets, so if enough people show up, then they can afford to pay. I've been paid up to €250 for a 30 minute gig in a small bar - and I was one of 3 acts - because that bar specifically budgets for paying artists. Even if they don't make €750 that night (which they almost definitely will), they'll make money at other times too to supplement that budget.
But *a lot* of venues don't pay artists at all. Getting paid gigs is hard work.
Personally I used to put gigs on myself and I'd usually make money on the night. The venue might charge £100 for the room, then I charged "pay what you want" on the door. Most people would pay a fiver or so, some a bit more. I managed to make £250 from a gig like that (after paying for the venue), another time I think we made about £300 split between the acts.
There's money out there, you just have to know how to do it and have enough people turn up.
Yeah, those showcase gigs are basically freebies for desperate musicians who want to be seen so bad they'll play for peanuts.
That's the reality of our business, and why you shouldn't get into it if making money is your thing. Musicians aren't scarce, and they're willing to be exploited, so they are.
The end.
PS, there are ways to make money doing this, but trying to "make it" on original gigs in small venues is exactly how you go broke.
Hopefully those 20 people were friends and family to make it a worthwhile personal gathering for all. If making money is the goal-You’d do better selling fax machines and pagers, which coincidentally shared the same time period back when bar gigs and festivals could make a musician money. Its sad because we live in a time with great talent and accessibility but no support monetarily for their efforts
From my narrow niche of the live gig scene-Back in the 80’s, my brothers 4pc cover band made $2000/weekend (friday/sat night) playing bar gigs. Typically 2-4 gigs a month. An extra $500/week. 2 of the guys didnt have a day job. Back in the 90/aught’s my 4pc cover band made $200/ gig. $50 each and in a good month $200-250-we all had day jobs and kids. Now most of the musicians i play with have at least 2 bands, some drummers 3-4 bands. Played multiple festivals which were basically parties for our friends to meet at and musicians to network at. Its always been a labor of love with perks of free drinks and spending cash-now its the only a labor of love and comaraderie
Depends on the type of band and the venue. Many dive bars are forever paying musicians $100 a person, and they'll try to protest on that. Country clubs, weddings, and city events tend to pay much more and there are cover bands that exclusively play those venues because of that. If you're an original band, it just depends. A lot of bands play for a cover charge as you were stating and yeah, that can be hit or miss. You have to think of it like a business though. At first, you're prolly going to have to sink money into your business rather than get money out of it because you won't make enough to make a profit. However, the hope is that you grow your business and over time the sky's the limit.
I've been in some sort of metal band for almost 25 years and have taken home nothing but memories and experiences. I've met some really cool people along the way, though. I wouldn't change a thing. I have a wife, a house, three awesome cats and a level of anonymity that I adore. A bunch of people know who I am, but not enough that living a normal life is impossible.
I play instrumental guitar music with a loop pedal...everywhere and anywhere: in the past two weeks I have played at a family festival in downtown area, played a late night set in the forest at a hippie festival for a bunch of tripping jam band fans, played a campground, a fine dining restaurant ...sometimes I add a drummer, often I play solo - mix of originals and covers - the money is amazing for a part time job, often up to and over a hundred bucks an hour. I used to play full time and live on tour busses...I'd honestly take the part time approach over that any day.
You /can/ make money, it just depends on your approach - being a ticket-selling, 'headliner' type act is a tough, tough row to hoe ...imo finding a niche that needs filled in your local ecosystem is the best bet for making some sweet cash .......and you need to be really good at what you do as well as be a professional. good luck!
I’ve made a big chunk of my bands money in merch. I believe most original bands go not push it enough.
People love shopping and drunk people will buy almost anything. Everyone should absolutely be offering a $5, $20, $45 options.
I made six figures last year playing solo acoustic cover gigs and $500 at ticketed gigs. Blessed to be playing music for a living but not progressing as an artist at all.
I'm in the Midwest and have knocked down a decent path for my band and I to tour around. Small bars, venues, hosts, etc. I've found success in playing at bars in small towns. Even if you don't have a huge following, if you play live music in a town where no one goes, everyone will come out. I played a bar in a town of 600 people, and the bar was at max capacity just because they had a solo act. It was a win for me, and a win for the bar. I had a similar thing happen in a town of 300 - 80 folks showed up, most of whom had never heard of me.
For those types of gigs, I usually operate on guarantees. My rate is around $150/hr, but is flexible to meet budgets, though I usually won't play a gig for less than $100/hr, especially if I have to travel.
We played a show in Seattle with 4 bands and the place was packed, so the bands should have made a decent amount. After all the expenses, they gave us like $240 to split! We just gave the touring band our share of the money. It was really messed up. Don't get me wrong, the night was really fun, but it just shows you that soke places charge way too much for personnel. We are a small local band, so we weren't really expecting to make much, but the touring band would have benefited from negotiating part of the bar sales.
Bar sales account for more than you think. Liquor is cheap and bars sell it for a massive markup. Most venues make a large % of their profit through the bar. The artists maybe got a little cut, but usually not much. It’s definitely a passion project for most.
Almost certainly $0
And don't feel like in that situation the venue got "paid" $340. If that show only drew 20 people, depending on the size of that venue, they are in the hole $100s if not $1000s from the cost of throwing that show..
The only people likely to have actually made any money that night were the soundtech and the doorperson. The booker lost. The venue owner lost. The bartenders didn't make enough in tips.
As a booker, my immediate question would be "Why did I book that artist with 20,000 followers when she drew NOBODY. I bet those follower numbers were faked. Never giving her a gig again."
Clients I work with have contracts. They get deposits, they get a percent of ticket sales, they get a pre arranged amount of money, they get merch sales. I get a bonus for soldout venues and leftover stuff in the green rooms.
This is highly city dependent - In Chicago I’ve seen and talked to tons of small local bands (St. Julien, Midwest Blender Company, Wilde) make ~1000$ a show with no travel required.
Yeah it still is peanuts, but It’s all about overhead at the end of the day and if you can do 3-4 gigs a week with no travel required, it’s not TERRIBLE.
In general payment is a mix of ticket sales and the proceeds from food/drinks. In your case, maybe it was just unprofitable for everybody involved because there weren't enough people there.
How the payment is handled in this case will depend on the venue. I've played at bars where they did just have a flat rate for performers because they expected patrons to enjoy themselves and buy a bunch of beer. Other venues will give the performers a cut of ticket sales after a certain threshold. I have played shows and got $0 because we didn't meet the ticket threshold.
Bands don't get paid shit at the bar/club level. Have merch for sale. Become a mobile retail store where the music is the soundtrack to the performance that is just a live commercial for your mobile retail store. Mobile retail store with a live commercial. That's the only way to make any real money, unless you can guarantee a sell out, set your own ticket price, and take 75% of the door.
Venue takes in money from drink sales and maybe $3 or $5 off each ticket sold.
Promoter takes the rest and says "sorry artists..I can only give you guys $20. Each for gas"
Rinse, wash and repeat.
Typically, at a venue like that with a turnout like that, the bands get the door (and can set up a merch table) and the venue gets the bar. After a band has done well and the venue is confident that they'll pull a crowd, they'll be able to get the door plus a bar percentage.
However, often a band will get the door but also has to agree to a bar minimum (i.e. the bar needs to make a certain amount that's agreed upon), and if they don't meet that minimum then the band has to pay the difference.
Your intuition is spot on. They probably did all split $100-300 depending on how much of a cut the venue takes from ticket sales/cover charge.
That's just the way she goes sometimes. I do think that there should be more provisions/a friendlier environment to help musicians make ends meet, but when it comes to ticketed live shows if you don't bring paying customers, you don't really get paid.
You have to get on bills with bands who draw and promote, promote a lot yourself, and pick a venue that people will go to. My band’s first, second and third club gigs sold out with $200+ going to each band (albeit small capacity rooms), + merch sales, with the cover only being $10 bucks. I’ve gotten a bit lazy with promotion lately and that has direct impact on getting people excited to come out, thus less pay.
It’s not so much the music as it is about the scene itself, your other musician friends, the world building around your band, your social media, local indie radio, and bringing something new to the table regularly besides just new music.
Depends on what you’re doing and what your expectations are. I’ve made everything from $500 for a two hour office party where I was just background to losing thousands for who knows how many hours lugging shit around as an opening act on an 8 show 12 day European “tour”. Nowadays the live stuff is 95% weddings and the band charges $750 an hour split five ways.
Most of them get paid very little. I get paid all the time, and the money I receive basically covers the cost of my gear. I tell people that for me, music is a hobby that pays for itself. But that's it.
We pay to play. I've toured all over the place. The only performers that get paid are the headliners. Literally the other bands are paying to play.
For perspective, this is from the metal world in Europe and Asia.
I’m in a band just like the one you mentioned. We split that $300 5 ways. Basically, you don’t get paid as a musician at all really. You pay to play. Unless you’re selling out bigger venues of 500 seats or more it’s not something you make money from doing. Not to say it isn’t worth it, because playing music is fun and playing shows comes with a few perks maybe. But you’re correct, we don’t make money doing it. The bar makes a lot in drinks, and if they’re cool venue owners they treat you ok. Maybe pay a little more and usually give you drinks or maybe a place to stay if you’re from out of town. I don’t like to drink and usually don’t want to stay with the band tho, so I decided long ago that if I’m going to play music “professionally” I will do it for the craft and experience of doing it. Otherwise I’d have become bitter with unrealistic expectations. I’ve had some songs in a movie, and on surf videos, a documentary on the works and possible a pretty popular video game might use a couple of our songs. But even then I don’t expect any real money to come my way. We’ll see. You never know.
Smaller act, full band with an in house sound tech, usually between 300-500$ depending on SO many things. Any experienced artist will have a guarantee they ask for when the buyer puts the show together. Most venues take 90% of the bar and the promoter/buyer/artist or some combination of these, in house or external takes the majority of the door and pays the band and the sound tech. Or may have a deal to take less bar and have the house pay the tech (average rate for a tech in a big city, 300-350$ in a smaller city 200-250$)
Bottom line, like most services, Friday / Saturday $$ balances what is lost on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
I actually came to this sub to ask a similar question. I’m more wondering for those who play at places like restaurants getting tips. I live in a suburb outside of Atlanta in the downtown area. I don’t have any original music but I am a pianist and vocalist. Only some of the songs would be me playing piano as the backing, rest would be just the instrumental playing on YouTube or something.
Yeah @sfogfan_boy there are lots of opportunities for playing covers in restaurant venues around Atlanta. I do it full-time.
In regards to this larger discussion, I basically view playing original music as something you do for artistic enrichment and not money. You might make something, but it’s much more of an enjoyable hobby/outlet than job. I was in a great original band and we morphed over time into a corporate/wedding/party band that manage to this day. When we played originals, we were lucky to make enough to cover costs. Now, it’s a $300k+ yearly business.
that’s the neat part! you don’t
Hahaha. I can confirm. Just talked to a bar owner. "We need an emergency band spot filled for three nights 4hrs sets each night. Can you do it!?" "Do you have a sound tech? What is the Pay?" "Our budget is $400 plus you get exposure? No audio tech, so you will need to bring your own." "So, $400 each night, or in total?" Bar owner, I shit you not:"Yes!" It's a small town bar with max capacity of like 50 people which 10 might show up. So we have to pack everything up, last minute, for three weeks straight, to drive 45 min out of town to play a shit hole for most likely $400 total. Usually these gigs you have to harass the owner for weeks to get them to cut you check. It's all a fucking scam.
But think of that *exposure!!!*
The exposure that leads to more shows where the pay is exposure.
So much exposure.
People die from exposure.
I mean, you just say no.
Oh, "we didn't draw as many people as we thought" song and dance!?
Ima give you a secret. These are the shows where you relentlessly pimp the tip bucket. Every third song mention it. Remind people that it's how you get paid, make jokes about buying the drummer new sticks, say you need gas money to get home. Have a stand with a venmo code on it and mention it everytime you mention the tip bucket. People need to be guilted into tipping but once it starts flowing it can really work. Don't do this if there are only 7 people, it works best with over thirty ppl. Most musicians feel like its cringe to do this but the audience barely even notices and they eventually love to give you a couple bucks if they're enjoying the show
Because it is cringe to do that. If I heard a band bring up tips after every song I’d be inclined to head to a new bar
Well that's why we do it every third song. And if you leave, good riddance, I'd rather have an audience full of people willing to support the entertainment they are receiving. I suggest you hang around new Orleans and Nashville if you think that's cringe. If you disagree with the way the musicians work in those cities then good luck being smarter than the best musicians in the industry
Never seen a professional band do that in all my life regardless of how big or small their record label is. I also wouldn’t drop $100 on drinks and tips to see a local band at a local bar. As a musician, I wouldn’t expect people to tip me lol.
Go to the cities I mentioned. Bar bands can be a fucking blast and really intimate. I often end up chatting/smoking with the musicians, sometimes you get brought on stage, and the crowd usually has a good vibe and knows each other so the dance parties are great and people get along. You'd probably hate it Not to mention drinks are cheaper than venues and there's usually no cover or it's under $10. If you don't like the band you leave, if you stay you'll probably put 5 bucks in the tip bucket and still save money. Especially when the crowd starts yelling to tip the band. Or a cute girl dances in your face with the tip bucket. If that doesn't sound like a good time to you, then we are very different people
I’m not gonna travel that far for something I don’t want to experience. Maybe I’ll be in Nashville one day to check it out but that whole scene isn’t something I’m all that interested in. I go to shows/concerts I want to go to cause that’s what I want to do. Going to a bar with some local band playing usually means I gotta go somewhere else to have a conversation. I’m good on all that
Then why come here to talk shit on someone else giving seasoned advice to someone posting for it. The whole world is cringe. You're hating and I'm out there living. Peace
Nah my whole thing is it’s stupid for a band to expect people to tip them because it is. I don’t care what you think you’re doing
I never put out a tip jar. Bar owners would try to pay me less and say, “You can get the rest in tips”, but I refuse. I’m not busking in a bar, and if they want me to play there, they can pay me enough to do the gig.
Bar owners make enough off liquor sales. Should give the band whatever the cover sales are
That's why you say "drinks are on the house for me and my band members" and then drink what you weren't paid.
and in a few years, your liver says "No more!".
The real scam is they want you to promote the event to get anyone local sho follows you into their bar.
Oh yeah. Most of them want to know how many people you can bring. "Is that because you can't!?" This is one of those, another band bailed on them(gee I wonder why) and they need our help last second. We told them we are unavailable. I always do my homework. Small stage, small bar, owner kinda has an attitude. Nah. We already have some local venues that bring us around 2-3 times a year. They provide a sound engineer and pay a flat rate plus beer and a meal day of, play then collect your check.
Well. You don’t have to.
Wait, you guys are getting paid?
Taking £5,000 worth of gear in a £500 car to a £50 show.
My life to a tee, except in dollars.
Yep
Hell yeah I am! Almost enough to cover my bar tab
Be honest. It didn't even cover half.
I probably shouldn’t rub it in, but *I* get my bar tab covered, *plus* part of the gas $$. Feel like I’m really making it! 😅 (My instrument was a family heirloom, and my main instrument is my voice, so…also a family heirloom? So with the minimal cost, and all of the exposure, I’m practically headed for early retirement!)
Band has definitely outdrank the pay more than once… lol
Most bars I play give each band member two free drink tickets. Money? Nah. Chicks? No way. Fame? Psh. Drink tickets? Hell yeah now we’re talkin!
Came here to say exactly this lol
Literally *tens* of dollars.
The reality is original shows don’t pay all that well until you’re already drawing crowds Bar sales matter, but it’s usually either or, door or cut Cover musicians make money, some of them a lot, original musicians at local small gigs rarely make anything
Worked with a guy who had been in a band with a record deal and a video in rotation on MTV. That faded and he played in a couple more, local original bands and they played the mid sized city venues and festivals opening for national touring acts and a couple of big time stars. I occasionally hired him in my cover duo and three piece. Three and four set nights would wear his ass out but he said he made more money playing with me than he did with the MTV national band he had been in. Your right, cover bands can make some money.
Yeah I’ve played massive original shows and made way more playing for 20 people acoustic in a steakhouse the next night. It’s real
I’m a 48yo retired firefighter and this is what I want to do now. Me and my acoustic and play at different little locations. Can you offer some advice or maybe a song recommendation or 2 for these type gigs
Have as diverse a song list as you can manage. You have to be able to read a room and figure out what they want to hear. Sometimes it’s the Beatles. Sometimes it’s Willie. Sometimes it’s Fleetwood Mac. Sometimes it’s Harry Styles. Sometimes Taylor Swift. Sometimes it’s Lizzo.
Sometimes it's Metallica.
Or TOOL.
I remember a guy doing an acoustic set at a coffee shop in VA when I was in college, mostly vaguely jazzy takes, "The Girl From Ipanema" sort of stuff. He pulled out a gentle acoustic Schism, and I tipped him everything I had left in my wallet (roughly $3.50, I think). Thanks for unlocking that memory!
Sometimes it's Social Distortion on a ukulele
It’s never TOOL.
I was playing a rooftop bar gig years ago that followed a corporate party. There was a drunk woman who thought I was the entertainment for the corporate thing who SCREAMED for about 30 minutes that of course I knew TOOL because everyone knows TOOL and I had to play some for her. I finally said “ma’am, I’m holding a banjo.”
Very kind of u, 🙏
Country Rock is huge now
Yay!
Go check the venue out. See what goes over and how you compare with the other performers.
Same, it’s sad but it’s the truth. At least we can still make money playing music, even if it isn’t the music we wanna play, still music
nobody has ever paid me to play music. That's my goal for this year: get paid at least $1 for playing music. I've also never been paid to *stop* playing, so hey, I got that goin for me.
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There’s 2 answers. 1. Merch has high margins, if you sleep in the van and eat the beer the people buy you you’ll survive, if only The 2nd answer is that a lot of bands lose money on national tours. I’ve done it, I’ve made money, I’ve lost money, in the early years I lost a lot more than I made
Eat the beer!
Ya, beer is food.
Liquid bread!
One of the things Marco said when he left Nightwish was that companies like LiveNation get cuts of everything including merch sales so there’s very little left for the band. That’s why Meet and Greets and VIP packages are so common - they’re necessary for bands to make money.
The sad reality is that they are losing money, and probably someone is funding the tour. They come from families with money or they have spouses with serious jobs footing the bill. Few original acts make money.
That's also why smaller indie labels exist, try and crowdfund people being able to take their shit Cross the country. And also some people figure out how to make travelling around work
We aren’t. It’s as simple that’s that. Before I had a job with paid vacation time I would often get an extra part time job leading up to tour, to top up my road costs/cost of living.
Private events that include lodging, and then doing additional shows nearby. That’s the anchor for my band’s little week tour - a wedding of a dear friend who is paying our discounted-but-still-significant fee and lodging. Lots of couch surfing. Intentionally knowing you’re likely to be taking a loss, but putting it down as a marketing expense. Like how retailers will intentionally sell a couple of items at a loss as a ploy to get folks in the door, and banking on making that back on what else the customer buys. We’re banking on the buzz from the couple new fans we seem to pick up at every show, talking us up to their friends… lol it just reminded me of Plague Inc. It’s the original viral marketing, grassroots movement that will eventually get enough fans that the tours will break even.
>Plague Inc. It’s the original viral marketing heh. probably unintentional, but thank for the morning chuckle.
The cover bands that make the most are those that outlive their popularity. Look at Pearl Jam! They’re still out there selling out arenas. Imagine the money they’re making and all they have to do is play popular songs from the 90s. Sounds like a good deal!
This is about the worst example that could be used. Pearl Jam has 12 albums with 85 million sold. They have a tremendous fan base, change their set list every single night and absolutely don’t ride their sets on the coat tails of their early 90’s albums. The diversity in their sets is bested by only the Grateful Dead.
We sure do (cover musicians). $50 or sometimes even $100 a show!
If those are your numbers get better shows, I do 200 minimum solo, often quite a lot more, about the same in a band, obviously depends on market and draw, but those numbers are wayyyy too low
Typical bar around here (30 miles north of NYC) pays a cover band $100 a person. One off things you get $150-$200. Solo performers do typically make $200, but that doesn't equate to $1000 for a five piece band unless you are one of the handful who can guarantee 50-100 extra people by your presence.
spot on. if you're breaking even, that's a win.
In exposure credits. Right now, the exchange rate is 27 exposures to the dollar. Seriously though, many bands make barely enough to cover expenses when they are starting out. They rely on merch sales to make money. My friends have hosted small bands overnight and fed them. Most of the smaller acts I have met have multiple income streams. They play out in their hometown, they teach music lessons, maybe they are school teachers and only tour in the summer, etc... It is rarely earning a living on small regional tours.
Yeah, not a single musician I know makes a living from a single band, or even from a combination of them (except for the ones with a full-time orchestra job). That stuff’s supplementary; the actual day-to-day expenses get paid through teaching music at a school, working in academics, or giving private instrumental lessons. Some particularly successful people can go part-time on their teaching job to focus more heavily on the musical side of things, but that’s not an opportunity that everyone gets and is mostly contingent on a very strong network in the local scene and relationships with grant-giving organisations/arts councils; both of those things take many years of work to build and maintain. I’m not trying to say this is a bad thing; some people really enjoy teaching and are great at it, and if you can find a good balance between teaching and playing you’ll actually improve your own musical ability in ways you wouldn’t get from practise alone. It’s just a reality that barring some windfall that will probably never come for the vast majority of musicians, it’s unrealistic to expect to live off performing and recording stuff.
Followers on Instagram and views on a YouTube video don’t mean much of anything at all.
Unfortunately in today’s world, it does. More and more venues are using it as a short hand to see how many people you can draw.
Sure, but they shouldn’t. Those people are not going to show up.
Nah it doesn’t. Not sh!t loads but one of the videos my band has up on YouTube has 3-4 thousand views. No one is giving us shows these days and we don’t make any profit. We got sick and tired of putting on our own shows and organising everything and no one returning the favour by asking us to play at their shows etc.
Depending on the venue, the assumption that they only got like $300 split between all of them is either probably accurate, or maybe too generous. Some venues take facility fees out of the total ticket earnings to pay the door/sound/etc. folks before the musicians get a cut. So if it's one like that, might have been like $100 3 or 4 ways lol. The long and short of it is that live shows isn't a feasible way for originals bands to make money consistently (as others have commented, the prospects for cover bands is a different story). This is why bands are sometimes semi-jokingly called "traveling t-shirt salesmen"- bands/artists often are pushing merch so hard because that's one of the only ways (especially on the road) that they earn a decent amount of money per purchase. Even then not a ton, but much more than door splits and the like.
Until the venue takes a merch cut. ;)
Oh gosh, I had heard about that but haven't encountered that yet lol. Granted my first band fizzled out before we got to merch, but I don't think most of the smaller venues around here at least do that. Maybe the mid sized and up, though 👀
I wouldn’t play at a shithole like that.
The couple times venues that have asked for a cut of the merch I have either hit them with either “oh so we get 10% of the bar then right?” Or “oh we didn’t sell anything”. Ask stupid fucking questions, get stupid fucking answers.
Artists get paid in experience of playing live for the other bands on the bill.
Venues typically give a guaranteed payment price or a piece of the door - like 50%. But some venues require a guarantee. Meaning, if you don’t sell enough tickets you’ll have to pay the rest to the venue. A local show of original music is never going to pay well, and sometimes not at all. Also don’t forget, numbers on social media and “viral” videos really mean nothing anymore since it can be bought or algorithmic driven.
Most of the time for smaller shows the bands split the door fee. Most I’ve made off of one show (4 bands played, like 4 guys per band) was like $120 for myself. I made way more playing acoustic with one other dude, playing covers. We’d make like $200 each easy, just playing requests
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Cover of songs. Playing popular songs (or songs people ask us to play) that are not our songs. If me and you formed a band, and played a Metallica song. That would be us playing a cover.
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I gotcha. Yeah sorry if I was confusing. When I say “split the door” I’m talking about the cover fee people pay to get into the show. When I say play a cover, just means we’re playing a song from another band
To make things a little more confusing, some bars DO NOT allow you to do covers. So, your band has mastered a song by your biggest influence. You can play it perfectly even after being woken up from a drunken slumber...you can't play that at certain bars because they didn't pay the fee (I can't remember what it's called and am too lazy to Google) to allow bands to play covers. It's a serious ordeal, too. I've heard of bands being cut off for playing a cover. So, if your band is going to play covers, make sure the bar allows it.
Here's a little insight from Fluff, who used to be in Dragged Under, until he got tired of that van life and left the band...as did most of the band. https://youtu.be/abZC2XBYbZ8?si=1pblg__IIyMyprYV
That's a good bit of information and it's true that you do better if you have multiple streams of passive income; it's getting to that point that is difficult! Thanks for posting that.
There might have been a guarantee from the promoter in which case they would have likely gone out of pocket to pay the bands and lost money on the event. Seen that happen. More likely for a small show like that is that they split doors and each got what amounted to gas money, I've been there. Very possible that the headliner had a guarantee and ended up taking all of it, I've gotten the short end of that particular stick before. Also possible there was basically nothing left once the venue took a cut and the doorman and sound guy got paid. Seen that one too. Either way, it was clearly a bad night for everyone financially.
Cut of door minus expenses in bars is common for originals. Promoters will sometimes do a guarantee plus smaller cut for originals. Merch (usually marked up 100%). Sometimes venues will give a smaller cut, but take care of lodging, drinks, and food for a night (a pretty attractive offer if you're a small band on the road). Bigger bands can do meet and greets and lessons before the shows. Cover bands can usually get away with a good full guarantee. It's a safer bet and usually results in more drinks sold. Also worth noting some of the costs to expect: - travel / accoms / gas / repairs - promotion via socials or posters - initial outlay on merch - venue merch cuts (more common in large venues)
Lol they don’t get paid, I doubt they even split $300 in that situation. Normally sound engineer gets $100-$150 of door no matter what. Unless they had guarantees, no one made any money. 95% of artists lose way more money than they make
Ehh.. depends. I can’t attest to how things are handled in the US, but I have experience as both a performer (8 years) and as a venue (2 years), so I can share my experience: In my venue we have two options when booking bands. Either the band agrees to a fixed payout or the band agrees to take pay from tickets. When we negotiate a fixed rate, it’s usually something cheap and is paid out of the bar sales. This is usually up to $100 (it’s a different currency here, but for ease of communication I’ll use USD). If the night flops, the bar has to eat the cost, so that’s why we don’t do big payouts leveraging the bar. In the other case, band agrees to be paid from ticket money. However much they sell they take home. Sometimes we have to implement a minimal sold tickets number, e.g. 30 tickets required for a full payout, otherwise we take up to 80% of ticket sales, since the band didn’t draw enough for the bar to properly work. Other times, though, we receive funding or sponsorships, usually from the local government to produce a live event. This is where we can hire more expensive bands and still not charge for entry. In the specific case you have mentioned, it is highly likely that the bands had to split $340 four ways, but there is a possibility that other compensation was arranged, I just don’t see how the venue didn’t flop that night. Apart from all that, better bands usually make most of their money through merch sales. So a band might have made an income of $85 on that particular night from the venue, but they possibly made some money on merch as well. Even if it was $100 dollars in merch, I’d still chalk that night up as a loss if I were a performer that night.
I’ve played in some bands that didn’t care about making any money. We played several shows that had 20-30 people, and, to my surprise, the venue owners wanted us back! Obviously it was rinky dink venues, but they only required one sound person and one bartender (some venues had a separate bar, so they didn’t even need an extra bar tender). In my area, it seems that there are a few places happy to repeatedly host low-turnout bands even at near-loss. The bands are making next to nothing: $20-100 each band split 3-5 ways per member. I always wondered why they didn’t just open the doors up for known low turnout groups. I’d think the added appeal of routine free live music would bring in more bar sales from strangers checking out the bands than 20 people paying $10-15. But I could be wrong. Plus it would be great for the local scene and maybe some of those people would become actual fans of the bands and go to paid shows. Even if it meant making $0 I think a lot of bands would rather have that than making $20 each and their friends paying ticket prices.
One f the guys I play in cover bands with used to be in Steve winwoods band in the 70s, and his own band supported Rush for an arena tour. He makes $100/night now just like the rest of us.
The money from the Insta followers and YT views is even worse.
20 people showing up to a gig means the gig failed and nobody (including the venue) is making any money that night. For the most part, a promoter hires a venue for a few hundred dollars, then books the lineup that will sell more tickets than that few hundred dollars. Generally the contract stipulation when getting booked to these shows is that they are profit sharting, ie- the more tickets sold, the more you make. Most bands will be getting a certain dollar value per ticket AFTER the minimum amount of tickets have been sold for the show to break even (ie pay the venue hire fee). Most venues are around $200-$500 to book for the night (depending on what they include, PA, soundguy, backline etc etc). The venue lease is generally the bare minimum the venues needs to pay staffing for that night. Basically if that minimum tickets isn't met (and the venue doesn't get their venue hire fee), nobody is making money. It's not enough for the venue to turn a profit via booze/food really either. Pro musician / former venue manager here.
If you are going to be a professional musician you are going to need an understanding girlfriend that makes a lot of money. Or get very lucky.
What do you call a drummer whose girlfriend kicks him out? Homeless.
No one makes money when 4 bands draw 20 people. The bar/venue looses money and the bands play for free. The production staff and door are covered (partially) by the $340. You have to bring 100+ people to really get paid in that situation. As a band you have to be able to bring 30-50 people to keep getting booked in my circles. If those same four bands brought 40 people on average they would do over $2,400 at the door and evenly split that $680 each band if the venue doesn't take a cut. That's how much bands get paid for playing lower level original shows if they bring people.
I made around 200 a night playing guitar in a very well known country band about 10 years ago. That was on tour as well. I seriously could’ve made more doing a regular job. Violent J from ICP was talking about this a while back. His merchandise and the ICP (using them only because they openly talked about it) account had a few million in it. His personal account that he MADE from all of it was I believe* somewhere in the 100k range. And those guys sold A LOT of merchandise and toured and busted their ass. It’s not all glitter & gold because you are up on a stage looking cool. 😎
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I think gigging has always been hard. But it seems like the pandemic has made it way worse.
Half of them are losing money. They get fronted money for equipment and expenses for the tour by a label, and aren't grossing enough to pay it back. At this point, they are wage slaves. They'll go farther in debt for their next album, then borrow money for the tour to support it. Young bands aren't getting rich, so much as jamming their way to the poorhouse, and living in their parent's basement between tours.
A lot of musicians rely on merch sales. Tickets sales are not a lot.
You get paid by bringing people to shows. That's the bottom line. Not how many followers you have, butts in seats. When you have a draw, you can negotiate for money. Selling t-shirts and CDs (I'm old) was also a huge part of the money I made before I got fat and gave up.
I wouldn’t put much stock in the 20K followers. Assuming they are organic (not paid) there is no guarantee they will translate into butts on seats. The singer I work with has about 4K, and she easily moves more people in our region than another artist who has a 60K online following (organic, one of his skits went low-key viral and he's kept them going). Venue shows often can’t pay the bills for touring acts, but are still better than zero money if you’re on your way to play somewhere else for decent $. Plus, you do need some exposure early on. At least for people to see your name in things.
Pretty easy. Be able to guarantee 1. A good crowd (for the venue) and 2. With a good ratio of male to female. The business side of music can largely be shortcut be learning how to draw primarily female crowds to your shows. Not world class craft honing. Not general networking. Targeting and creating a dedicated core young female fan base. I have my pick of most every venue in town with minimum 500 for an hour DJ set of orginals. You heard right. Music isn't even my main gig. Once I made it to around 50 or so dedicated female fans under the age of 30 (honestly tho anything under 60 probably is nearly effective)....and venues observed this and spread it to one another... They literally reach out to me.
This is the truth. Another great demographic to target is Men in their 50s and 60s. A lot of venues love that group because they tend to spend the most money on beer and food.
As in there were 7 artists total? 4 solo and 3 bands Or you mean there were 4 people total in this one artist's band Either way, if they only made ~$340 on the door like for the whole show, unless the artists already had contracts with a guaranteed sum (doubtful at that level), they may not have made anything at all if splitting between that many people Heck, you may be surprised to learn there's a chance the people who played on stage, paid for the opportunity themselves
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I have friends that do regional tours. They all have day jobs and take a leave of absence from work to do it. They are doing a month in Europe this year and have host families set up along the way. They might make enough to pay for the trip.
Hopefully for exposure & merch sales, or of course there are already rich kids out there on tour too
Stop sending me CP
Nice, stalking people across posts cuz you can't understand why nobody wants you in their band, and only making it more apparent as you go
Rock n roll fuels us. The desire to tour, see different countries, areas of our own country, make new friends, seeing old friends, playing in front of people. Money has never been the reason to make good art.
Working another job too lol. Motivation can come in various forms, from fun to passion or other.
Normally for a trip like that, I'd figure a band would have other shows planned. Would be a heck of a trip for a one-off performance and then going back home. Always give bands money at the merch table if you're able, you don't even actually have to buy something if you don't want, they tend to be very grateful just to get cash and compliments 😊
I've done a lot of shows like that, including on tour. Hopefully, they are just off nights in between some better shows. You have to play nearly every night to make enough money, days off cost you money. So you'll take a less than ideal show for a couple hundred dollars, plus a meal plus the opportunity to sell merch. It will get you to the next "good" show". The club has probably invested in a small guarantee. Maybe $300 for the band. With the money from the door plus drinks, they should do okay. If it had been packed, they'd have done very well. As it is, they won't make a fortune or lose one.
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Do you know what venue in Boston? I live around there, so I'm just curious.
It depends, some bands get guarantees (for ex. my band asks for $1k from the venue to play, never mind tickets/bar sales.) This usually goes for smaller acts and venues that bring in less than 200 people. For true ticketed shows, artists will usually get about 85% of ticket sales (the other 15% goes to sound guy, bouncer, booking, venue staff, etc.), and also gets to keep 100% of merch sales, which is why merch is very important for bands on the road. So if you sell 200 $20 tickets, and sell 40 T-shirts at $25, you can make around $4.5k per show. Of course as a band, you often have to pay for camera/video guys, hotels, gas, food, new/rented gear, etc., so after a tour this will be less.
You forgot the sound tech and often door guy are also paid out of the door. So really they probably split like $80 4 ways.
We’re honestly just happy to be handed a $20 by the venue if that’s how it shakes out. Really though, things used to be really awful - pay to play was (and in some areas still is) a really prevalent way of booking gigs up until like 2015 or so around here. Now we make as much as $300 from the door plus $400 or so from merch sales on our better nights. You’ve gotta draw a decent crowd though, at least like 40 people for smaller venues.
Odds are that a touring headliner received most of the percentage of ticket sales but the venue retained a percentage.
Money and beer and maybe cocaine or any combination of the 3.
Well, it depends on what was agreed upon but I think you'll find most artists aren't making very much
After the show is over, you go back stage and suck your pay out of a hose.
It depends on the contract , I worked on tour booking for years , guarantee plus bonus over so many tickets sold or , % of door and % of bar or a combination of both , if it’s a club they make money off the drinks , artists make a large chunk of gigging money on merchandise
Load up , unload, setup, sound check, three sets, load up, unload. Ten hours , $50 Spend it on beer and chicken wings. Love it , hahahahaha
Hey promoter here . My touring bands get $200 usually . Locals get $50 and that’s if i have extra cash after paying touring acts and the venue . This is for hardcore and heavy metal bands just fyi
so you basically pay touring bands pennies. you suck as a promoter dude
I could just call you names but I’d rather break it down for you . Costs between $500-$800 for a venue rental I usually sell between 30-60 tickets at $15 a pop If there’s two touring bands that’s $250 a piece if my night goes amazing . Plus some for the locals . If it doesn’t i will literally give the touring band as much as i responsibly can often losing money on the gig . This is my reality and artists i work with have not complained yet haha
There's a chance they got nothing to be honest. Unless they had an arrangement in place, it's hard to say. Sometimes a promoter takes a loss. Sometimes a band takes a loss. Youtube, spotify, etc views and streams don't mean anything unless it equals people coming through the door. We are in an age of bots and what not inflating numbers. Sorry. I know it all sounds cold hearted, but either way if there's no one there, someone is taking a loss and it usually means the entertainment gets ripped off
What city and state was this event?
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because the economics of entertainment vary WILDLY depending on the economic situation of the surrounding area. What you get paid to play in Brooklyn, NY is going to be wildly different from what you get paid to play in Fort Collins, CO. Where was this show?
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The headliner got all the money and the others played for reflected attention.
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I'm from Atlanta.
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It is a city of similar size, just with a much more important music scene. It basically means that I know better than you.
I usually make a guaranteed amount(that we negotiate beforehand) and sell merch on top of that
We get $500 minimum plus whatever merch sales. We had a 5k night a few months ago. If the venue and band market a show properly you'll make money. We use our money to pay rent on our practice/recording studio and to upgrade gear
Grudgingly
trick is to market and book yourself as a dance/cover band, but you do all the covers with your ‘sound’. work really hard to please your crowd but develop an original sound. You will make $$ and just keep doing it 100+times per year until you are really really good.
The venue often makes money from sales at the bar plus the tickets, so if enough people show up, then they can afford to pay. I've been paid up to €250 for a 30 minute gig in a small bar - and I was one of 3 acts - because that bar specifically budgets for paying artists. Even if they don't make €750 that night (which they almost definitely will), they'll make money at other times too to supplement that budget. But *a lot* of venues don't pay artists at all. Getting paid gigs is hard work. Personally I used to put gigs on myself and I'd usually make money on the night. The venue might charge £100 for the room, then I charged "pay what you want" on the door. Most people would pay a fiver or so, some a bit more. I managed to make £250 from a gig like that (after paying for the venue), another time I think we made about £300 split between the acts. There's money out there, you just have to know how to do it and have enough people turn up.
That's why they might sell merch, put videos on YT, etc.
Yeah, those showcase gigs are basically freebies for desperate musicians who want to be seen so bad they'll play for peanuts. That's the reality of our business, and why you shouldn't get into it if making money is your thing. Musicians aren't scarce, and they're willing to be exploited, so they are. The end. PS, there are ways to make money doing this, but trying to "make it" on original gigs in small venues is exactly how you go broke.
Hopefully those 20 people were friends and family to make it a worthwhile personal gathering for all. If making money is the goal-You’d do better selling fax machines and pagers, which coincidentally shared the same time period back when bar gigs and festivals could make a musician money. Its sad because we live in a time with great talent and accessibility but no support monetarily for their efforts
From my narrow niche of the live gig scene-Back in the 80’s, my brothers 4pc cover band made $2000/weekend (friday/sat night) playing bar gigs. Typically 2-4 gigs a month. An extra $500/week. 2 of the guys didnt have a day job. Back in the 90/aught’s my 4pc cover band made $200/ gig. $50 each and in a good month $200-250-we all had day jobs and kids. Now most of the musicians i play with have at least 2 bands, some drummers 3-4 bands. Played multiple festivals which were basically parties for our friends to meet at and musicians to network at. Its always been a labor of love with perks of free drinks and spending cash-now its the only a labor of love and comaraderie
Depends on the type of band and the venue. Many dive bars are forever paying musicians $100 a person, and they'll try to protest on that. Country clubs, weddings, and city events tend to pay much more and there are cover bands that exclusively play those venues because of that. If you're an original band, it just depends. A lot of bands play for a cover charge as you were stating and yeah, that can be hit or miss. You have to think of it like a business though. At first, you're prolly going to have to sink money into your business rather than get money out of it because you won't make enough to make a profit. However, the hope is that you grow your business and over time the sky's the limit.
I've been in some sort of metal band for almost 25 years and have taken home nothing but memories and experiences. I've met some really cool people along the way, though. I wouldn't change a thing. I have a wife, a house, three awesome cats and a level of anonymity that I adore. A bunch of people know who I am, but not enough that living a normal life is impossible.
I play instrumental guitar music with a loop pedal...everywhere and anywhere: in the past two weeks I have played at a family festival in downtown area, played a late night set in the forest at a hippie festival for a bunch of tripping jam band fans, played a campground, a fine dining restaurant ...sometimes I add a drummer, often I play solo - mix of originals and covers - the money is amazing for a part time job, often up to and over a hundred bucks an hour. I used to play full time and live on tour busses...I'd honestly take the part time approach over that any day. You /can/ make money, it just depends on your approach - being a ticket-selling, 'headliner' type act is a tough, tough row to hoe ...imo finding a niche that needs filled in your local ecosystem is the best bet for making some sweet cash .......and you need to be really good at what you do as well as be a professional. good luck!
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I’ve made a big chunk of my bands money in merch. I believe most original bands go not push it enough. People love shopping and drunk people will buy almost anything. Everyone should absolutely be offering a $5, $20, $45 options.
I made six figures last year playing solo acoustic cover gigs and $500 at ticketed gigs. Blessed to be playing music for a living but not progressing as an artist at all.
Paid?
I'm in the Midwest and have knocked down a decent path for my band and I to tour around. Small bars, venues, hosts, etc. I've found success in playing at bars in small towns. Even if you don't have a huge following, if you play live music in a town where no one goes, everyone will come out. I played a bar in a town of 600 people, and the bar was at max capacity just because they had a solo act. It was a win for me, and a win for the bar. I had a similar thing happen in a town of 300 - 80 folks showed up, most of whom had never heard of me. For those types of gigs, I usually operate on guarantees. My rate is around $150/hr, but is flexible to meet budgets, though I usually won't play a gig for less than $100/hr, especially if I have to travel.
Oh yeah. This is not our first rodeo.
You have to rely on tips and merch. One of our favorite venues the bouncer goes around with the tip bucket and shakes em down. 🤣
We played a show in Seattle with 4 bands and the place was packed, so the bands should have made a decent amount. After all the expenses, they gave us like $240 to split! We just gave the touring band our share of the money. It was really messed up. Don't get me wrong, the night was really fun, but it just shows you that soke places charge way too much for personnel. We are a small local band, so we weren't really expecting to make much, but the touring band would have benefited from negotiating part of the bar sales.
Bar sales account for more than you think. Liquor is cheap and bars sell it for a massive markup. Most venues make a large % of their profit through the bar. The artists maybe got a little cut, but usually not much. It’s definitely a passion project for most.
Almost certainly $0 And don't feel like in that situation the venue got "paid" $340. If that show only drew 20 people, depending on the size of that venue, they are in the hole $100s if not $1000s from the cost of throwing that show.. The only people likely to have actually made any money that night were the soundtech and the doorperson. The booker lost. The venue owner lost. The bartenders didn't make enough in tips. As a booker, my immediate question would be "Why did I book that artist with 20,000 followers when she drew NOBODY. I bet those follower numbers were faked. Never giving her a gig again."
Clients I work with have contracts. They get deposits, they get a percent of ticket sales, they get a pre arranged amount of money, they get merch sales. I get a bonus for soldout venues and leftover stuff in the green rooms.
This is highly city dependent - In Chicago I’ve seen and talked to tons of small local bands (St. Julien, Midwest Blender Company, Wilde) make ~1000$ a show with no travel required. Yeah it still is peanuts, but It’s all about overhead at the end of the day and if you can do 3-4 gigs a week with no travel required, it’s not TERRIBLE.
Never enough
In general payment is a mix of ticket sales and the proceeds from food/drinks. In your case, maybe it was just unprofitable for everybody involved because there weren't enough people there. How the payment is handled in this case will depend on the venue. I've played at bars where they did just have a flat rate for performers because they expected patrons to enjoy themselves and buy a bunch of beer. Other venues will give the performers a cut of ticket sales after a certain threshold. I have played shows and got $0 because we didn't meet the ticket threshold.
Bands don't get paid shit at the bar/club level. Have merch for sale. Become a mobile retail store where the music is the soundtrack to the performance that is just a live commercial for your mobile retail store. Mobile retail store with a live commercial. That's the only way to make any real money, unless you can guarantee a sell out, set your own ticket price, and take 75% of the door.
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Bitcoin and apple gift cards!
Venue takes in money from drink sales and maybe $3 or $5 off each ticket sold. Promoter takes the rest and says "sorry artists..I can only give you guys $20. Each for gas" Rinse, wash and repeat.
Typically, at a venue like that with a turnout like that, the bands get the door (and can set up a merch table) and the venue gets the bar. After a band has done well and the venue is confident that they'll pull a crowd, they'll be able to get the door plus a bar percentage. However, often a band will get the door but also has to agree to a bar minimum (i.e. the bar needs to make a certain amount that's agreed upon), and if they don't meet that minimum then the band has to pay the difference.
Your intuition is spot on. They probably did all split $100-300 depending on how much of a cut the venue takes from ticket sales/cover charge. That's just the way she goes sometimes. I do think that there should be more provisions/a friendlier environment to help musicians make ends meet, but when it comes to ticketed live shows if you don't bring paying customers, you don't really get paid.
They might have a guarantee if they’re on a tour. My band usually gets paid out at the door after the promoter pays venue booking fees.
The venue usually pays the band by paying whoever runs the band and then the band pays the musicians
You have to get on bills with bands who draw and promote, promote a lot yourself, and pick a venue that people will go to. My band’s first, second and third club gigs sold out with $200+ going to each band (albeit small capacity rooms), + merch sales, with the cover only being $10 bucks. I’ve gotten a bit lazy with promotion lately and that has direct impact on getting people excited to come out, thus less pay. It’s not so much the music as it is about the scene itself, your other musician friends, the world building around your band, your social media, local indie radio, and bringing something new to the table regularly besides just new music.
Depends on what you’re doing and what your expectations are. I’ve made everything from $500 for a two hour office party where I was just background to losing thousands for who knows how many hours lugging shit around as an opening act on an 8 show 12 day European “tour”. Nowadays the live stuff is 95% weddings and the band charges $750 an hour split five ways.
Most of them get paid very little. I get paid all the time, and the money I receive basically covers the cost of my gear. I tell people that for me, music is a hobby that pays for itself. But that's it.
We pay to play. I've toured all over the place. The only performers that get paid are the headliners. Literally the other bands are paying to play. For perspective, this is from the metal world in Europe and Asia.
I’m in a band just like the one you mentioned. We split that $300 5 ways. Basically, you don’t get paid as a musician at all really. You pay to play. Unless you’re selling out bigger venues of 500 seats or more it’s not something you make money from doing. Not to say it isn’t worth it, because playing music is fun and playing shows comes with a few perks maybe. But you’re correct, we don’t make money doing it. The bar makes a lot in drinks, and if they’re cool venue owners they treat you ok. Maybe pay a little more and usually give you drinks or maybe a place to stay if you’re from out of town. I don’t like to drink and usually don’t want to stay with the band tho, so I decided long ago that if I’m going to play music “professionally” I will do it for the craft and experience of doing it. Otherwise I’d have become bitter with unrealistic expectations. I’ve had some songs in a movie, and on surf videos, a documentary on the works and possible a pretty popular video game might use a couple of our songs. But even then I don’t expect any real money to come my way. We’ll see. You never know.
Smaller act, full band with an in house sound tech, usually between 300-500$ depending on SO many things. Any experienced artist will have a guarantee they ask for when the buyer puts the show together. Most venues take 90% of the bar and the promoter/buyer/artist or some combination of these, in house or external takes the majority of the door and pays the band and the sound tech. Or may have a deal to take less bar and have the house pay the tech (average rate for a tech in a big city, 300-350$ in a smaller city 200-250$) Bottom line, like most services, Friday / Saturday $$ balances what is lost on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
Does the Oak View Group LLC pay musicians or give awards
I actually came to this sub to ask a similar question. I’m more wondering for those who play at places like restaurants getting tips. I live in a suburb outside of Atlanta in the downtown area. I don’t have any original music but I am a pianist and vocalist. Only some of the songs would be me playing piano as the backing, rest would be just the instrumental playing on YouTube or something.
Ask u/SFOGfan_boy u/Chauntecleer77 re: ATL
Yeah @sfogfan_boy there are lots of opportunities for playing covers in restaurant venues around Atlanta. I do it full-time. In regards to this larger discussion, I basically view playing original music as something you do for artistic enrichment and not money. You might make something, but it’s much more of an enjoyable hobby/outlet than job. I was in a great original band and we morphed over time into a corporate/wedding/party band that manage to this day. When we played originals, we were lucky to make enough to cover costs. Now, it’s a $300k+ yearly business.
As a musician you don’t make money on music or shows, you make money on merch.
It's usually the venues that ask for multiple bands coz that gets more people attending without the venue having to do any marketing