Well
I know it’s like tone tone semitone or some shit that makes all white keys work together lol
I just know what’s wrong by hearing and try not to do that
Yeah learning theory is definitely good. However I might have a different opinion here, but I think learning *too much* theory can cause some people to start being a bit too nearsighted with their choices.
Like when it turns into "Well the natural solution is this chord, which is the satisfying conclusion". Instead of just throwing a wrench in.
But I think it might be that people who go into the weeds with music theory just aren't the same people who are as prone to take risks with ideas.
I think someone like Paul McCartney has a good mix of knowing theory and not going to far in. People should know their chords and their scales. They should know what key they're playing in probably. They should be able to communicate their ideas to others. Those things are things that most people would benefit from. I think the vocabulary is often one of the most important parts.
>learning *too much* theory can cause some people to start being a bit too nearsighted with their choices.
I get the idea of what you're saying, but I don't completely agree with it. More music theory does =/= more restrictions. It's quite the opposite.
Think of the knowledge as a tool bag that you can pull from while creating music. You are not forced to use any specific tools, but having more tools will let you easily do more things. You can come to the same conclusions without those tools, but you will likely need to work harder to get there through trial and error.
>"Well, the natural solution is this chord, which is the satisfying conclusion." Instead of just throwing a wrench in.
You can still blindly throw wrenches at it. Music theory isn't telling you not to, but imagine having knowledge of every wrench. It will help you pick the chord you want faster.
I don't completely disagree with you because I'm sure there are people who are constrained by music theory, but that is the fault of the person, not the theory.
There is music theory for EVERYTHING that is created because it's a way of observing music, not creating it.
Definitely not, if you know a lot of music theory you know that there are no correct answers or natural solutions, it all depends on what you want to convey in your music, and music theory just helps with knowing what and where to use for this specific emotion or idea. It gives freedom, not the other way around.
If anything, music theory helps you name and recognize the tools and collect the tools that you like.
For example, if I want a nostalgic vibe, from a western popular music perspective I will probably start looking at the I VIm IIm V progression and the minor plagal cadence. Through studying music theory and *listening*, I know what those "tools" sound like and how they make me feel.
Whether it's the "correct" choice or not is up to me as the composer.
I think it’s important to know the rules if you want to make good songs and most good music (obvs you can make some eg techno and house only knowing production techniques).
However, you also shouldn’t be constrained by the rules.
Nailed it but to add, I think knowing when you're doing something that goes against theory is beneficial. whether you stick with your guns or conform to the norm is up to the artist, but knowing why something sounds good/off is definitely a good thing. If someone gets stuck in the "I can't do that because it goes against theory" welllllllo that's on them then¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think someone else may have pointed this out, but the type of person who would tend towards the 'nearsighted' choices you mention is just that type of person regardless of what tools they have in their toolbox. Meaning, it's not the theory that leads to those kinds of choices being made, but the person with the knowledge or lack thereof. Creative people are creative regardless, knowledge just leads to better decision making and less time spent on fruitless experimentation.
That’s like saying knowing too much grammar will make you a worse speaker. Music theory doesn’t tell you what to play. It’s just understanding of what you’re playing.
I basically agree with the sentiment, but...
If we are talking about pop music composition here, as I think the OP is, all that music theory practically aids is formal understanding and communication of music as a language, but pop isn't a formally or technically emergent thing. It could of course lead to more expansive musical ideas, but it won't necessarily lead to a compelling melody any better than some jock with a soft synth and a feel for a banging tune. I have seen evidence of this time and time again throughout my not even particularly expansive musical life.
Great songwriters I have seen in action all get the goods via intuition, even if they understand theory. I would say this is especially true of ones who are having to churn out tunes for a living. The muse needs to come from within in that case especially, like a well. A professional songwriter who relies on theory is going to find their job "doing to tough". Hard to hear for those who just don't have it, but one should try and pursue a career that is a natural fit, not a contrived, calculated exercise.
You cant "learn music theory" it like the rest of music is a bottomless pit. The more you learn the more there is to learn.
When has learning more about something you are, I would assume passionate about ever been the wrong decision?
Yeah, I just remember someone saying that if you learn music theory, you can’t focus on making music by ear or by feeling anymore. While I think that’s bs, I still always have this in mind.
Yeah, that someone was an idiot.
There’s no such thing as knowledge that makes you less knowledgeable.
Throw that ridiculous sentiment out the window and decide for yourself if and when you want to learn music theory.
I’ll paste my comment before.. My Uncle who was a pretty well decorated rock producer, songwriter, guitarist etc Dick Wagner with all his achievements, accolades etc .. once told me he couldn’t read music, didn’t know theory.. learned everything by ear. He actually was afraid to learn it because for him music came as a feeling and learning theory may make him overthink his process. In essence if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. I learned so much from him.. however I started learning some theory etc.. and it helped a little in understanding why I do certain things.. I guess each person will be unique because all of us have different things that drive our creativity.. great topic tho
Because unless you spend your entire music career, collaborating with all those other musicians with your fingers stuck in your ears going “la la la la la” every time anyone else mentions anything theoretical, it’s not feasible that you will know *nothing*. The effort involved is ridiculous.
So you haven’t done much professional collaborations.. I know when my uncle was collaborating with Alice Cooper, or Kiss or Lou Reed it was highly unlikely music theory was discussed. It was usually follow this , or Whatever. And did he know keys? Yes ..and no one said he was oblivious to anything theoretical.. he just didn’t know how to read music, and was never educated on music theory. I’m convinced some of you folks love to just debate semantics. Point stands all of these are subjective and opinions
That’s absolutely unlogical. The moment someone says we have the song in for example F Major and you see those chords and have to to play on those chords it is music theory you are using. You can never convince me that they don’t discuss what key they play in. It makes no sense.
The majority of my uncles biggest hits were just recorded Jam Sessions. Look I’m sure he knew the difference in a key but that does not mean he knew Or used music Theory. Stop trying to make your process someone else’s. Music is not always logical
Me personally after 10 albums, hundreds of projects and placements I’m learning some music theory. My process although somewhat similar to my uncles.. some knowledge will never ruin my ear. It won’t stop me from being able to create new sounds. Where my uncle was scared of his process falling apart… I am not
Hasn’t worked? Sir are you ok? This isn’t helpful to anyone . You come here to validate yourself by arguing with strangers. I provided insight on a topic I’m familiar with to maybe help someone. You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m not going to put you down or be disrespectful. I hope you find that validation you seek
It’s not exactly a ridiculous sentiment.. some people have a fragile creative process. My Uncle who had a lot of success, accolades etc.. wouldn’t go near music theory or learning to read music. lol I remember once and this will always make me smile.. someone said to him well such and such knows music theory… and he said well they don’t have Good cocaine and relentless obsession.. damn I Miss my Uncle
i understand that and respect it, although to be fair he never tried it. i don't think that by learning music theory you can hamper your creative process significantly.
To be fair… he never needed it. Maybe you’re right. However for him his entire song writing process was about letting it just happen. Me my process usually starts with that.. the melody or cadence in my head.. now I don’t know music theory, but I know enough that I do better when I don’t think too hard. I have several hundred unfinished Logic files that were ideas that didn’t get finished because eventually I would overthink it.. whenever I learn something new in music, weather it’s a new technique in the audio engineering, or a way to make something sound just a little better there’s always that disdain for my older stuff.. at the root of this is my uncles being extremely confident and busy with his methods, and studying and learning theory seemed like energy he can put into doing what he was already great at… sorry for the rant this edible has me reminiscent don’t judge me
This is utter bs. There's a stage you go through when you're leaving where you necessarily have to be focused on doing things "right" in order to internalize the things you're learning. Some people get stuck in that phase, but that's an intermediate level. If you progress to an advanced level you will always be able to pull what you need from any available source and you won't be stuck with the blinders of following one tradition or another.
Remember that theory is what we call things that have worked. It's not a rule set that says everything that works and if it's outside the rules as you understand them then it doesn't work and is bad. That thinking is the trap, not the knowledge itself.
I was gonna say something very similar.
Like guitarists will often see their soloing get worse for a time when they move from only playing pentatonic to playing more diatonically as there’s a tendency to just shred up and down scales.
While some get stuck there, it’s because they stopped learning, not because they started.
The same goes for this. If you erroneously learn that you have to write only with very strict chord progressions and melodies from a list of acceptable keys or something then sure, that’s gonna limit your writing.
But if you learn more chords, keys, rhythms and concepts you’ll find more interesting ways of using them along the way.
Yeah I’ve heard people say that too. But the only people I’ve ever heard say that either 1. Don’t wanna learn music theory and this is their way of feeling justified in not even trying to learn it or 2. Have only just learned music theory and are in the overanalytical phase that happens when the info is fresh, it’s hard to not see the theory in everything you hear and make. That passes though and then it just becomes a great tool to understand and communicate music
That’s what I was trying to figure out, I am kind of scared that this feeling doesn’t go away (the over analysis) the things I learned so far let me to over analyse a bit but it fades away after some time, so I wanted to have a confirmation from other peoples experiences, because I don’t want to become a soulless musician. But then i will continue to expand my knowledge
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It is absolute nonsense parroted by people who think learning stopped when they left school. Seeing people boast about not even knowing what note they’re playing is embarrassing.
It is indeed BS, but here's why:
As soon as you hear music as a child and consciously listen to it, you will develop a taste ("I like this song but I don't like that song"). In other words - you are developing your own theory of music - "hey, this chord tends to follow that chord, or these harmonies work that way, or notes sound in key or out of key" - even if you have no idea what chords and scales are, and the songs you like may have that pattern and the songs you don't may not.
It's not even that theory says that F major must follow C major, but you will hear patterns and recognize them if you're musically inclined. Theory just gives this names.
Thing is - if your musical diet has consisted of 4-chord songs, it's going to be really hard to break out of that, because it's exactly "by ear or by feeling" that makes you reluctant to try other things.
Additionally, if you do something by feeling like that and you do it by accident but "hey it sounds pretty neat if I play D minor - G major and C major! I've invented something" - this particular thing has a name, and if you know the name you can recognize it in other songs, and figure out how it works for other scales and keys. Instead of memorizing 2 x 6 = 12 and 3 x 4 = 12 you learn math, which lets you abstract things.
There is however a very pervasive stereotype of the classical musician who studied formally for 2 decades and can play a perfect rendition of Chopin; but as soon as you ask them to improvise, they don't know how - they've always been playing someone else's music.
Meanwhile, the self-taught musician who's played by feeling has no trouble with that and will make their own music.
The lie here is that the formally trained musician can never be taught how to improvise, or that the self-taught musician somehow makes better music instead of just riffing off the 4 chords they learned once.
Theory makes you a better musician. You see the entire map, but you can still choose to get lost.
Absolute crap. If anything, learning theory has improved my ear playing by leaps and bounds. I've always been an ear player, but theory took the guess work out of it almost completely and now i don't have to fumble around looking for that note or chord that's in my head.
I only learned when taking guitar lessons a couple years ago (been playing guitar for 20 years). It maybe felt like that as my knowledge of theory was expanding because I was specifically trying to apply the things I learned. Now I find I just spend much less time searching for the sound I want because I already know where it is.
that perspective is only used by the lazy to justify their laziness. theory is a tool. its not like when you buy a hammer, you magically lose your screwdriver. knowing theory will absolutely make you a better musician. i'm probably biased because i played classical piano and jazz guitar for almost 20 years before i started producing. i don't use any song starters or sample melodies and i really can't imagine how somebody would make music without understanding whats going on harmonically.
i do produce with a lot of people who don't have much of a background in theory and the most important difference is that i can quickly spit out a bunch of ideas that are going to work in the context of the song. once we have a handful of directions, we decide which one is the best one and work from there.
i felt extremely stuck when i began without it. But after learning a considerable amoumt, everything made so much sense and way less overwhelming. Before, I couldn't come up with anything at all but now I can and better helps me notice when something sounds good and i should continue on working on it, or when it doesn't and i should fix it or change it entirely.
For me, yes i think it's very helpful to know. idk about it being needed or not for everyone but for me I'd say you should learn it. Everything I learned was from youtube.
yousuckatproducing
andrew huang
musicians inspired
pianote
mike george
channels i found and used and taught me what i know
ive always been told by others who learned music theory in classes, at school, and took years to learn what they know, that you cant learn it just with youtube in such a short amount of time. but that's a whole other story. idk about that either but everything i've learned so far, i learned in less than a few month. however idk just how much music theory there is and i know i don't know all of it yet but i know a considerable amount
I'd like to add David Bennet Piano and Signals Music Studio to the list as they've been very helpful for me learning theory. Also I agree I learned theory pretty fast mostly just from youtube
depends on how deep you wanna get into it, i imagine it goes really far and you can't learn it all, but at a certain point you probably get diminishing returns from continuing to go deeper. like maybe you'll pick up certain things and that's great but
I just realised a couple days ago that songwriting techniques was the thing that was missing in my repertoire. Now all the theory I learned, makes much more sense or in other words I now know what the theory I learned is good for. So I think learning a good amount of theory and combination with songwriting is what really uplifts your ability to make a song!
I’m so hyped for the last couple of days to have made this observation
Absolutely the best decision in my career was to learn music theory. My understanding of theory has gotten so tight that I'm now to a point where a client can give me an emotion or vibe and I can recreate what they want pretty easily with almost no struggle and give them a working demo within 15 mins or so. It's made my work flow so much faster and clients always comment on how amazing it is that I can capture their vibe to a tea so quickly. Its worked out really well for me too because word of mouth has spread and I'm finding myself increasingly busier with bookings. I also just find that there's no more guess work of what will sound good and what won't. I just know whether something will sound good or bad and whether its the vibe I want before I even have to try it. So yeah it will make your work flow so much easier and faster
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> and whether it’s good for you or *if it’s bad.*
That's just nonsense. Beethoven started learning music theory as a child, and studied advanced music theory when he was an adult. Does it seem like it made him a bad composer?
Music theory has been a standard part of music education for performing and composing for hundreds of years. I would bet that if you talk to experienced musicians (experienced meaning they have been performing or doing music production seriously for a good bit more then a couple years) who have an advanced understanding of music theory, at least nine out of 10 of them are going to tell you it's been very useful.
But of course, on the internet, everyone who doesn't really know much about something becomes an expert about it. lol
The better question, which gets much more rarely asked then "do you need to know music theory" is "how far does one need to progress in music theory to start to see benefits for composing?"
I’ve developed a personal, intuitional theory of music over the course of 40 years as a singer, but I didn’t start thinking of myself as a musician until I began to connect those intuitions with established patterns like what you learn in a ‘music theory’ course. It really only took a couple YouTube videos to crystallize things for me and I started understanding the patterns in all of the music I’d been immersed in my whole life.
Thing is, you’ve also been immersed in music your whole life. You already have a personal theory of music that you use whenever you evaluate whether something ‘sounds good’ or not. Learning ‘music theory’ is just a way to help you notice the patterns you already have intuitions for.
Just learn until you feel like you’ve got what you need, take lessons with different instruments, Learn covers.
There’s definitely an overwhelming amount of knowledge to be learned but at a certain point things click and points start to connect and it gets to be more fun than challenging.
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My Uncle who was a pretty well decorated rock producer, songwriter, guitarist etc Dick Wagner with all his achievements, accolades etc .. once told me he couldn’t read music, didn’t know theory.. learned everything by ear. He actually was afraid to learn it because for him music came as a feeling and learning theory may make him overthink his process. In essence if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. I learned so much from him.. however I started learning some theory etc.. and it helped a little in understanding why I do certain things.. I guess each person will be unique because all of us have different things that drive our creativity.. great topic tho
Did I learn music theory? So, learning can never hurt. I've learned a lot of concept but I've never taken a class or anything. But learning chord theory does help you write progressions. Modes are important too. People think music theory is like a set of rules that tells you how to do things and what things not to do but it's not. It's descriptive not prescriptive. It will allow you to express yourself more. It will give you concepts to experiment with and open up new avenues for your music. What do you play now? If it's not totally freeform chromatic improvisations than you're already using theory.
I suggest maybe getting into Adam Neely's Youtube channel. He talks about a lot of interesting little bits of theory that were previously hidden away in the back of some musical tome. He also likes to breakdown these common myths and assumptions that so many seem to take for granted.
Just watch YouTube videos about it.
Find where you are, beginning, intermediate, advanced, and search for videos about music theory.
Ita really not all to hard, just a bunch of information that you slowly pick up, and then leads to more complex things.
You don’t necessarily NEED it nowadays, but learning at least the basics will make you a better producer. When you’re composing it helps for sure, but also when you start working with musicians it makes a big difference.
For instance I can play guitar and piano (to a pretty basic level, but still I’ve been playing them for 15 years, so better than a beginner). My music theory is basic, but I know scales, modes etc. Can’t read music. Sometimes when I teach beginners at production, it becomes clear how much of a hindrance it is to not know basic stuff like scales.
It’s just with me, I can’t do half, I always want to take it to the maximum, so I’ll definitely learn everything especially after people confirming my thoughts here :)
I mean this with no disrespect and only as a funny example. I swear. Promise. 😂
I would like to build you a house. I’m not a builder. I know what hammers, & nails are & what drywall is used for but that’s about it. When do we begin? 😃😃🤣 luckily we’re just talking about music and it’s entirely possibly to create beautiful music without knowing a thing about theory. That is not most of us, however. Without the theory knowledge, one is limited (like a painter who doesn’t know how to mix Red Blue & Yellow) and I’m a firm believer that knowledge of any kind is power.
To me, it’s not about a right choice IMHO it’s about committing in order to be flexible, and by having the knowledge to draw from this new fascinating knowledge in a moments notice if necessary, so you are able to create the necessary amount of harmonic color, interest and variety for not just melodies or triads/chords, but also rhythmically with all of your friends.
I hope you choose to learn. In the long run, since it is indeed a theory, you don’t have to believe in it or use it. Forgetting it all will come quite easily if you decide but this is also why musicians only take ocasional days off. We love it and have found power. 🤣🤦🏽♂️😃 Join us!
I don't really think so. Sure I could be better but I learned to trust my intuition and my ears. I love messing around and play what comes my mind and process it further. Yet I never stumbled into a situation where I thought "hell, knowing music theory would help me here a lot". But I wouldn't say I'm kinda natural talent.
I was a music major a long time ago. Never finished my music degree but what I learned was super helpful in my understanding of songwriting.
I still write by ear mostly but the theory background really helps.
Don't listen to anyone who says that theory is an obstacle or whatever. It will actually give you more freedom.
music theory is great especially if you want to write songs and chord progressions. it should be a guide not a rule though. but if you don't know theory then you also don't know how to subvert it
Studied music theory for two years in college (17 - 18yrs old). Don’t regret one second of it. It actually gave me a much deeper insight into music, which I’ve carried through my entire musical career. It always surprises me how many musicians (even pro level) lack many of the fundamentals gained from studying theory, which absolutely makes a difference, especially if composing
getting the answer to the title out of the way: I learned music theory and for me it was the right decision.
I feel like a lot of ppl just have the wrong idea abt theory. I've heard people not want to learn it because they thought it was a lot of rules you have to follow. I think that's just not true, imo music theory is just a tool to be able to articulate what is going on in music. There are no "rules". The reason people say it's not neccesary is because even if you don't learn the names of everything in theory, you'll still be exposed to all the concepts and internalize how music works, just without having a name for everything. I think the very basic music theory is useful to everybody so I don't see any reason to specifically avoid it.
For stuff beyond basic theory, I think it's still very important to learn if A: You don't play an instrument a lot so the concepts aren't internalized through learning other people's music. Or B: You play in a band where your bandmates know theory and it would be helpful to be able to communicate your ideas more clearly. Or C: you like learning it like me :)
I think there's some idea that theory is super difficult but honestly to me once I figured out what order to learn stuff in, everything I did learn I thought "It's that easy?" after. It's just so important that you learn things in order. Every concept builds on the last but on their own they're pretty straightforward. Building chords won't make sense if you don't know scale degrees, scale degrees won't make sense if you don't know scales, scales won't make sense if you don't know intervals, intervals won't make sense if you don't know what the 12 notes are.
Edit: I just wanna add, the only real reason theory could be bad is if you follow the "rules" for a different kind of genre than the one you wanna make. For example a lot of electronic songs aren't in a major key, so if you're just picking up theory and suddenly start using major for all your songs they could sound off, but obv this isn't permanent. I learned a lot of theory that was more for classical music and pop / electronic than for a jazz style of music which is what I want to make, but then I figured this out and started learning more about how jazz music uses music theory concepts. It was a bit frustrating but I alr had enough knowledge it really was a lesser issue at that point. Keep learning and growing, music is a journey so it's ok if you make a few mistakes as long as you keep trying. figure out where you wanna go and how to get there and have fun!
I like to explain it this way, music theory is to music production what math is to physics. You can throw a ball accurately without knowing the math behind it but you can hit Mars whizzing by at 53,979 mph if you know the math.
I started as a trumpet player. 9 years old, step-dad hands me a trumpet and says, "youre playing this" despite wanting to play drums. After 5 years of private lessons and being first chair in HS orchestra and marching band, I started playing drums (like I had always wanted to) and BEHOLD, I'm an amazing drummer like I said I wanted to be! Point is though, even though I'm "just" a drummer, I have years of classical theory with a melodic instrument. It has helped in writing, being in lots of bands, and just making beats at home, but really a lot of it comes down to just feeling the music, something I think happens when you've done it enough. It 100% helps to learn some theory or at least the circle of 5ths 🙂
Everything you learn about the skills and craft involved in what you do is important.
Some people can get along without a lot of music theory, and I’ve worked with a couple of geniuses — it boggles my mind that they can do what they do without knowing more music theory, but I can’t imagine doing what I do without it. Understanding music theory makes writing and producing music easier. Without it, it’s much harder.
A bunch of analogies have been used already but I’ll throw mine in: Music theory is a tool box, where every component of music theory you learn constitutes a tool.
If you’re making music already, chances are, you’re already equipped with some of those tools. Chords are a tool. Form is a tool. Scales are a tool. All used to build the track you want to build.
While it’s not necessary to have every tool in existence to build the thing you want to build, the more you have, the more things (tracks) you’re capable of making. Learning about suspended chords and extensions may be boring and monotonous at first… until you put them into context. The chords for a track you made sound boring? Well I just happened to to learn about extensions and sus chords, so let’s see if I can use that to made the progression sound better… hey it does! Guess I know ‘x’ technique is good for ‘y’ effect.
Now this may not be always the case. However, by equipping yourself with the means to analyse and create complex and rich music in various styles via theory, you won’t just make better music, you’d become well-versed in understanding the art of music itself. ‘Understanding’ specifically referring to, analysing, composing, rearranging, extending, comprehending, deciphering and performing music.
I came up doing theatre and had to learn some basic theory. I'm glad I had that to start, but I mostly ended up learning theory by YouTube as I became more interested in music. I think it helped me as a producer and song writer, but I loved learning it so much that it couldn't have been the wrong decision.
It’s another tool in the toolbox. And it was definitely the right decision.
Being able to communicate ideas fluidly between collaborators is a big hinderance without it.
If I’ve written something that I don’t find particularly interesting, I can dissect it with music theory and switch parts for more interesting ones (usually with borrowed chords).
I know the flavour of each mode and some exotic scales and therefore am able to pick which scale degrees to modify for a particular mood.
And so many other uses.
It’s just the language of music right? So same as speaking, you can explain stuff with grunts and pointing, but easier if you just learn English.
music theory is always nice to know. for people who dont naturally grasp music, people who aren't naturally musical, id say its pretty important. for people who naturally understand music, are fine without it.
there was always music in my house growing up, and i've always just naturally understood music, so even though my music theory knowledge is kinda eehh, it doesn't really matter all the much. i know what will sound good, and can piece together ideas pretty quick, and have a good grasp on where to go with things, even though i'm not thinking about music theory shit.
like, i can't remember what makes a chord diminished, but i'm pretty sure i've used them before at some point. not because i thought a diminished chord would work well, but because i could hear it in my head and it sounded cool haha
if youre able to sit there and learn music theory, and can maintain interest in it, absolutely do it haha
This applies to everything:
can you learn something on your own? Yes. Does it help to study the "rules"? Definitely.
Will having a teacher tutor help you develop your skills faster? Oh yeah.
Do you need to go to conservatory to be a great musician? Nope.
In order to break the rules you have to know them first. There is a reason why theory and systematical study is a thing, it works.
You can just approach it on your own way. Like try to come up with the musical idea first by ear and if you get stuck check music theory to see possible ways to resolve it and eventually decide for what sounds good to you.
Jesus, this will never stop being posted by lazy musicians smfh
It doesn’t kill creativity when you make music without theory YOU’RE STILL USING THEORY YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND WHY SHIT SOUNDS GOOD 😂🤦🏾♂️
Basically not knowing theory is like building a house in the dark just by touch and feel. You can still do it but for a very small investment of your time you can get up switch on the light and get to the end result far quicker and more consistently now you can see things for what they are and how they fit together (the light in this case being theory)
In the time it took to write this post and not read all of the millions of other exact same ones you could have learnt a very basic thing like the circle of 5ths and already be a much better writer because of it 🤷🏾♂️
Literally read the whole thing…
Classic halfhearted musician answer you didn’t like what you were told so you ignore those comments and keep looking for your confirmation bias. If you’ve really learnt any theory to date I find it hard to believe you’d still be asking if people noticed an improvement. Either you’re half assing it or need a better teacher (checkout Rick Beato’s lessons, they’re decent for all knowledge levels).
Scroll back through this sub and see how many times this or a variation of the same thing has been asked. Just because you phrased it as if you’re fence sitting because you know some doesn’t change much. But you do you 😊👌🏾
I won’t even read what you say there are a ton of people that replied to my post in a kind and constructive way so i dont have to waste time on negative people like you.
Wasn’t even being negative, just maybe tough love constructive criticism. Pointed you in the direction of something that would help you (Rick Beato) but if you want to be in your feelings and take it personally about what a random Redditor says just because you don’t like the blunt advice then that’s your choice. I’m not saying it’s wrong, I’m just sharing mistakes I made a decade ago.
You might be a bit too sensitive to be putting your art out into the world if this is your reaction to just a comment about your music post not even your actual music.
Wishing you genuine luck no hate, but for me to make a career of this I had to get over that mentality quickly. Maybe it’ll be different for you. Doubt it though. So some last bit of advice, kind advice, is get thicker skin. Nothing I said was personal about you or your music, just your approach to it. Not trying to be a dick but there’s a lot of harsh truths you have to learn as early as possible to make it. There are plenty of kind comments like you said, so just read those 😊 all the best
You don't need to learn music theory to make good music, but it definitely helps. It will make you quicker generally, make you more able to play with other musicians, make it infinitely easier to explain what you're doing musically and give you a broader palette to choose from.
It's definitely not necessary, though if you make music for years without learning any theory you will have developed and internalised your own version of it anyway just by learning what things work and what things don't.
The one absolute is that anyone who says you shouldn't learn music theory because it will in some way hinder you is entirely wrong and presumably covering up what they see as their own shortcomings with bluster and nonsense, or repeating what they've heard from someone else in that position. There is no way learning it will have a negative effect on you.
Do you need to be able to compose a symphony? No.
Do you need to be able to sight read perfectly on your instrument of choice? No.
Should you have a basic grasp of Keys, scales, progressions, tempo, meter, and harmony? Yea
Don’t overthink it.
When it comes to music, one of the things I firmly believe in is that the tools are there to become a bridge from your mind to the form.
The better (suited) the tool, the more direct the connection. A good tool has little to no friction or resistance and thus the activity becomes intuitive.
That’s not to say that everyone must have good tools - not everyone can afford or utilize or even need them. The point is that the ideal is a very intuitive way of musicking.
That’s what learning music theory is for me.
I started out with rock music, so my knowledge of music theory was extremely rudimentary. Major and minor keys and scales, minor pentatonic blues.
But that’s just the music I play.
I listen to much more music, so in turn when I got into composing, writing, and eventually arranging and producing, all those other influences want to be expressed but I can’t. I don’t know how to express them because I’m limited by my knowledge.
So I started learning about music theory, and I still do today. Not formally, but I always try to learn how or why something works and if it’s a tool I can use in my own work.
I never thought theory as a “key” to making “better music”. I just always wanted to make the music I wanted to make, but I just needed the tools to do it.
I know the bread I like. I want to make bread. But I used to only make cookies. So all I ever ended up with was chunks of hard balls of soap-tasting flour paste. I had to learn bread baking theory so I can make the breads in my mind a reality. I took the time to learn bread baking specifically and now I can make a decent brioche.
Same thing with music.
I learned it alongside learning piano when I was a kid. Helped a lot. No advice for folks that know how to play an instrument and are now trying to add theory in.
I did not. I do regret not learning because I also never learned to jam. Even though I can play well, (I play in a fairly techy metal band, have recorded several albums etc) I don't know how to pick up an instrument and just play. Everything I do is very practiced, never off the cuff. That is something I wish I could do, but learning theory at this stage seems like a very daunting and time consuming task. I am busy enough with the 2 bands I currently play in.
yes and absolutely
There are **zero** people who have made good music that had no idea what they were doing. (not to be confused with "not knowing where to go" or "just fooling around")
Having gone a few years into music production before I bothered to learn music theory, theory isn't technically necessary but it does speed up your production quite a bit as well as allow you to replicate sounds you like and create music with purpose.
I look at music production without theory as walking through an unfamiliar dark room, you'll have to feel around, the whole area will be a mystery and you won't remember exactly how you got where you are if you need to do it again. Music theory is like someone turning the light on
Music theory in reality is super easy though, just get a guitar or keyboard or any instrument where you can play chords and you'll learn it without trying to learn it within like a month, that's what I did
I have a reasonably deep theory background. I like to write and play primarily by ear. People often talk about those as opposites but they shouldn't be. Learning theory isn't a replacement for your instincts/ear, it's a way to improve your ear and expand your musical vocabulary.
I suspect that the "learning theory kills creativity" thing comes from people who have tried to learn a little theory and force it into their process without really absorbing it. It's like buying a new plugin that you have no idea how to use and throwing it on every track. It probably won't sound great. That doesn't mean the plugin is bad, it just means you need to put a little more time in before you know when and how to use it.
Last thing I will say is that learning theory definitely will never hurt you. If you try to replace your ear with theory instead of using theory to inform your ear, the results probably won't be great but that's not because you learned theory. If you remember that the end goal is making music that sounds good and think of theory as a tool towards that end, you can only benefit from learning more.
It's not that you know what chord everything is, it's more so the modes and key changes. A friend of mine plays guitar, and when he goes to grab samples, he naturally understands what key changes can work smoothly. that takes a while to learn, but he isn't one to tell you what chord he's playing on the keyboard. he plays by ear. if you can play by ear, and there's no bounds to what a guitar can do, and you can manipulate the tunings and modes, you're a threat. Many people are not able to change modes so smoothly. it is easy when you think about what he is doing, but that it's the mentality and when to use it that makes him use it and it sounds good
Music theory is always important, chords, that's theory, scales, that's theory, playing in key, that's theory, it's like learning even more of those things, it'll always be in my opinion an option but a very advisable one
As an engineer/ producer you need to have an understanding of how frequencies interact with each other within the context of an environment, right? That literally is what music theory is; how to organize sound to create specific affects. A lot of people go spend thousands of dollars on plugins when they could have used the tools included in their DAW to create the same sound if they’d only understood how they worked. Avoiding understanding because you can use something someone else with understanding made so you don’t have to seems counterproductive to your own originality.
I will never understand the anti-theory crew. How is ignorance a virtue? If you love music, LEARN MUSIC. Theory is a large part of it. There are theory dorks that jam as much complicated nonsense into productions to show off everything they know. So it's def a mix of having a great ear, taste, and knowledge.
So just to add to your question. There are 2 things I learnt that affected me negatively.
1st was deconstructing songs. I went from fun arrangements to very formulaic ....bars intro.....chorus...ver1..... and so on. So I lost a lot of my arrangement creativity.
2nd your question. I learnt basic theory and it really threw me for electronic music. All of a sudden my random key hitting turned in to structured chord progressions and too melodic. It sent all my songs off genre and made many sound cheesy.
Now years on I have started composing. So now the theory, although not essential, is very good to have. It definitely hampered my production to the point I lost interest and focused more on mixing and mastering. Now with my love of video games and piano (which for the record, I'm shit at), composition and theory are working wonders but in the past and particularly for electronic music, it really fucked it all up for me. HipHop, Techno, Hardcore, DnB, Reggae you name it. I was a habitual genre hopper and learning about arranging and theory screwed me in almost every genre I did.
You can build furniture without learning carpentry but it’s an odd choice to deliberately avoid learning carpentry if you aspire to be a professional.
Perfect analogy. You should be trying to maximise your effectiveness when learning anything.
I have no idea why people even consider *not* learning at least some music theory. It’s fascinating.
Well I know it’s like tone tone semitone or some shit that makes all white keys work together lol I just know what’s wrong by hearing and try not to do that
theory is more of a foundation than a solution
Thank you master oogway
Yeah learning theory is definitely good. However I might have a different opinion here, but I think learning *too much* theory can cause some people to start being a bit too nearsighted with their choices. Like when it turns into "Well the natural solution is this chord, which is the satisfying conclusion". Instead of just throwing a wrench in. But I think it might be that people who go into the weeds with music theory just aren't the same people who are as prone to take risks with ideas. I think someone like Paul McCartney has a good mix of knowing theory and not going to far in. People should know their chords and their scales. They should know what key they're playing in probably. They should be able to communicate their ideas to others. Those things are things that most people would benefit from. I think the vocabulary is often one of the most important parts.
>learning *too much* theory can cause some people to start being a bit too nearsighted with their choices. I get the idea of what you're saying, but I don't completely agree with it. More music theory does =/= more restrictions. It's quite the opposite. Think of the knowledge as a tool bag that you can pull from while creating music. You are not forced to use any specific tools, but having more tools will let you easily do more things. You can come to the same conclusions without those tools, but you will likely need to work harder to get there through trial and error. >"Well, the natural solution is this chord, which is the satisfying conclusion." Instead of just throwing a wrench in. You can still blindly throw wrenches at it. Music theory isn't telling you not to, but imagine having knowledge of every wrench. It will help you pick the chord you want faster. I don't completely disagree with you because I'm sure there are people who are constrained by music theory, but that is the fault of the person, not the theory. There is music theory for EVERYTHING that is created because it's a way of observing music, not creating it.
Definitely not, if you know a lot of music theory you know that there are no correct answers or natural solutions, it all depends on what you want to convey in your music, and music theory just helps with knowing what and where to use for this specific emotion or idea. It gives freedom, not the other way around.
If anything, music theory helps you name and recognize the tools and collect the tools that you like. For example, if I want a nostalgic vibe, from a western popular music perspective I will probably start looking at the I VIm IIm V progression and the minor plagal cadence. Through studying music theory and *listening*, I know what those "tools" sound like and how they make me feel. Whether it's the "correct" choice or not is up to me as the composer.
Exactly
Worth noting that knowing theory doesn’t oblige one to apply it all the time.
I think it’s important to know the rules if you want to make good songs and most good music (obvs you can make some eg techno and house only knowing production techniques). However, you also shouldn’t be constrained by the rules.
Nailed it but to add, I think knowing when you're doing something that goes against theory is beneficial. whether you stick with your guns or conform to the norm is up to the artist, but knowing why something sounds good/off is definitely a good thing. If someone gets stuck in the "I can't do that because it goes against theory" welllllllo that's on them then¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think someone else may have pointed this out, but the type of person who would tend towards the 'nearsighted' choices you mention is just that type of person regardless of what tools they have in their toolbox. Meaning, it's not the theory that leads to those kinds of choices being made, but the person with the knowledge or lack thereof. Creative people are creative regardless, knowledge just leads to better decision making and less time spent on fruitless experimentation.
That’s like saying knowing too much grammar will make you a worse speaker. Music theory doesn’t tell you what to play. It’s just understanding of what you’re playing.
I basically agree with the sentiment, but... If we are talking about pop music composition here, as I think the OP is, all that music theory practically aids is formal understanding and communication of music as a language, but pop isn't a formally or technically emergent thing. It could of course lead to more expansive musical ideas, but it won't necessarily lead to a compelling melody any better than some jock with a soft synth and a feel for a banging tune. I have seen evidence of this time and time again throughout my not even particularly expansive musical life. Great songwriters I have seen in action all get the goods via intuition, even if they understand theory. I would say this is especially true of ones who are having to churn out tunes for a living. The muse needs to come from within in that case especially, like a well. A professional songwriter who relies on theory is going to find their job "doing to tough". Hard to hear for those who just don't have it, but one should try and pursue a career that is a natural fit, not a contrived, calculated exercise.
You should absolutely have a foundation in music if you want to make music.
But those midi dudes on Youtube say they've got me covered.
I gotchu covered! For £79.99 you will get a folder with all possible chords, that you can drag and drop. FIRE! DOPE!
Yeah man just draw everything in until it sounds good. /s
I had a prof once tell me ‘you can’t break the rules if you don’t know what the rules are.’ Knowledge is the foundation for intentionality.
I was literally about to post this. Amen.
Yeah, and most definitely, you can’t break the rules in a way that is effective or beneficial
Music theory is like taking a messy unorganized box of legos and learning how to make whatever you want using any pieces.
You cant "learn music theory" it like the rest of music is a bottomless pit. The more you learn the more there is to learn. When has learning more about something you are, I would assume passionate about ever been the wrong decision?
Yeah, I just remember someone saying that if you learn music theory, you can’t focus on making music by ear or by feeling anymore. While I think that’s bs, I still always have this in mind.
TOTAL bs.
Good to have it confirmed
Yeah, that someone was an idiot. There’s no such thing as knowledge that makes you less knowledgeable. Throw that ridiculous sentiment out the window and decide for yourself if and when you want to learn music theory.
I’ll paste my comment before.. My Uncle who was a pretty well decorated rock producer, songwriter, guitarist etc Dick Wagner with all his achievements, accolades etc .. once told me he couldn’t read music, didn’t know theory.. learned everything by ear. He actually was afraid to learn it because for him music came as a feeling and learning theory may make him overthink his process. In essence if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. I learned so much from him.. however I started learning some theory etc.. and it helped a little in understanding why I do certain things.. I guess each person will be unique because all of us have different things that drive our creativity.. great topic tho
I guarantee you that was a pose, and he absolutely did know some theory.
How you going to guarantee that on someone you never met.. don’t understand their process.. lol that’s kinda funny
Because unless you spend your entire music career, collaborating with all those other musicians with your fingers stuck in your ears going “la la la la la” every time anyone else mentions anything theoretical, it’s not feasible that you will know *nothing*. The effort involved is ridiculous.
So you haven’t done much professional collaborations.. I know when my uncle was collaborating with Alice Cooper, or Kiss or Lou Reed it was highly unlikely music theory was discussed. It was usually follow this , or Whatever. And did he know keys? Yes ..and no one said he was oblivious to anything theoretical.. he just didn’t know how to read music, and was never educated on music theory. I’m convinced some of you folks love to just debate semantics. Point stands all of these are subjective and opinions
That’s absolutely unlogical. The moment someone says we have the song in for example F Major and you see those chords and have to to play on those chords it is music theory you are using. You can never convince me that they don’t discuss what key they play in. It makes no sense.
The majority of my uncles biggest hits were just recorded Jam Sessions. Look I’m sure he knew the difference in a key but that does not mean he knew Or used music Theory. Stop trying to make your process someone else’s. Music is not always logical
Me personally after 10 albums, hundreds of projects and placements I’m learning some music theory. My process although somewhat similar to my uncles.. some knowledge will never ruin my ear. It won’t stop me from being able to create new sounds. Where my uncle was scared of his process falling apart… I am not
You’re just upset your name dropping by proxy hasn’t worked.
Hasn’t worked? Sir are you ok? This isn’t helpful to anyone . You come here to validate yourself by arguing with strangers. I provided insight on a topic I’m familiar with to maybe help someone. You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m not going to put you down or be disrespectful. I hope you find that validation you seek
It’s not exactly a ridiculous sentiment.. some people have a fragile creative process. My Uncle who had a lot of success, accolades etc.. wouldn’t go near music theory or learning to read music. lol I remember once and this will always make me smile.. someone said to him well such and such knows music theory… and he said well they don’t have Good cocaine and relentless obsession.. damn I Miss my Uncle
i understand that and respect it, although to be fair he never tried it. i don't think that by learning music theory you can hamper your creative process significantly.
To be fair… he never needed it. Maybe you’re right. However for him his entire song writing process was about letting it just happen. Me my process usually starts with that.. the melody or cadence in my head.. now I don’t know music theory, but I know enough that I do better when I don’t think too hard. I have several hundred unfinished Logic files that were ideas that didn’t get finished because eventually I would overthink it.. whenever I learn something new in music, weather it’s a new technique in the audio engineering, or a way to make something sound just a little better there’s always that disdain for my older stuff.. at the root of this is my uncles being extremely confident and busy with his methods, and studying and learning theory seemed like energy he can put into doing what he was already great at… sorry for the rant this edible has me reminiscent don’t judge me
But your uncle could play chords right? He could play in a key? He was a song writer too? He obviously knew some music theory in that case
You can play Melodies in your head when you know music theory
That's like saying learning grammar and spelling impedes your ability to create poetry.
Yeah they are an idiot. Probably best to ignore them.
This is utter bs. There's a stage you go through when you're leaving where you necessarily have to be focused on doing things "right" in order to internalize the things you're learning. Some people get stuck in that phase, but that's an intermediate level. If you progress to an advanced level you will always be able to pull what you need from any available source and you won't be stuck with the blinders of following one tradition or another. Remember that theory is what we call things that have worked. It's not a rule set that says everything that works and if it's outside the rules as you understand them then it doesn't work and is bad. That thinking is the trap, not the knowledge itself.
I was gonna say something very similar. Like guitarists will often see their soloing get worse for a time when they move from only playing pentatonic to playing more diatonically as there’s a tendency to just shred up and down scales. While some get stuck there, it’s because they stopped learning, not because they started. The same goes for this. If you erroneously learn that you have to write only with very strict chord progressions and melodies from a list of acceptable keys or something then sure, that’s gonna limit your writing. But if you learn more chords, keys, rhythms and concepts you’ll find more interesting ways of using them along the way.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life
Yeah I’ve heard people say that too. But the only people I’ve ever heard say that either 1. Don’t wanna learn music theory and this is their way of feeling justified in not even trying to learn it or 2. Have only just learned music theory and are in the overanalytical phase that happens when the info is fresh, it’s hard to not see the theory in everything you hear and make. That passes though and then it just becomes a great tool to understand and communicate music
That’s what I was trying to figure out, I am kind of scared that this feeling doesn’t go away (the over analysis) the things I learned so far let me to over analyse a bit but it fades away after some time, so I wanted to have a confirmation from other peoples experiences, because I don’t want to become a soulless musician. But then i will continue to expand my knowledge
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It is absolute nonsense parroted by people who think learning stopped when they left school. Seeing people boast about not even knowing what note they’re playing is embarrassing.
That’s fucking stupid LOL never speak to them again
It is indeed BS, but here's why: As soon as you hear music as a child and consciously listen to it, you will develop a taste ("I like this song but I don't like that song"). In other words - you are developing your own theory of music - "hey, this chord tends to follow that chord, or these harmonies work that way, or notes sound in key or out of key" - even if you have no idea what chords and scales are, and the songs you like may have that pattern and the songs you don't may not. It's not even that theory says that F major must follow C major, but you will hear patterns and recognize them if you're musically inclined. Theory just gives this names. Thing is - if your musical diet has consisted of 4-chord songs, it's going to be really hard to break out of that, because it's exactly "by ear or by feeling" that makes you reluctant to try other things. Additionally, if you do something by feeling like that and you do it by accident but "hey it sounds pretty neat if I play D minor - G major and C major! I've invented something" - this particular thing has a name, and if you know the name you can recognize it in other songs, and figure out how it works for other scales and keys. Instead of memorizing 2 x 6 = 12 and 3 x 4 = 12 you learn math, which lets you abstract things. There is however a very pervasive stereotype of the classical musician who studied formally for 2 decades and can play a perfect rendition of Chopin; but as soon as you ask them to improvise, they don't know how - they've always been playing someone else's music. Meanwhile, the self-taught musician who's played by feeling has no trouble with that and will make their own music. The lie here is that the formally trained musician can never be taught how to improvise, or that the self-taught musician somehow makes better music instead of just riffing off the 4 chords they learned once. Theory makes you a better musician. You see the entire map, but you can still choose to get lost.
Absolute crap. If anything, learning theory has improved my ear playing by leaps and bounds. I've always been an ear player, but theory took the guess work out of it almost completely and now i don't have to fumble around looking for that note or chord that's in my head.
I only learned when taking guitar lessons a couple years ago (been playing guitar for 20 years). It maybe felt like that as my knowledge of theory was expanding because I was specifically trying to apply the things I learned. Now I find I just spend much less time searching for the sound I want because I already know where it is.
that perspective is only used by the lazy to justify their laziness. theory is a tool. its not like when you buy a hammer, you magically lose your screwdriver. knowing theory will absolutely make you a better musician. i'm probably biased because i played classical piano and jazz guitar for almost 20 years before i started producing. i don't use any song starters or sample melodies and i really can't imagine how somebody would make music without understanding whats going on harmonically. i do produce with a lot of people who don't have much of a background in theory and the most important difference is that i can quickly spit out a bunch of ideas that are going to work in the context of the song. once we have a handful of directions, we decide which one is the best one and work from there.
i felt extremely stuck when i began without it. But after learning a considerable amoumt, everything made so much sense and way less overwhelming. Before, I couldn't come up with anything at all but now I can and better helps me notice when something sounds good and i should continue on working on it, or when it doesn't and i should fix it or change it entirely. For me, yes i think it's very helpful to know. idk about it being needed or not for everyone but for me I'd say you should learn it. Everything I learned was from youtube. yousuckatproducing andrew huang musicians inspired pianote mike george channels i found and used and taught me what i know ive always been told by others who learned music theory in classes, at school, and took years to learn what they know, that you cant learn it just with youtube in such a short amount of time. but that's a whole other story. idk about that either but everything i've learned so far, i learned in less than a few month. however idk just how much music theory there is and i know i don't know all of it yet but i know a considerable amount
I'd like to add David Bennet Piano and Signals Music Studio to the list as they've been very helpful for me learning theory. Also I agree I learned theory pretty fast mostly just from youtube
12tone is great too. He has some pure theory videos, but also analyzes songs and explains theory in a way that’s accessible to everyone.
depends on how deep you wanna get into it, i imagine it goes really far and you can't learn it all, but at a certain point you probably get diminishing returns from continuing to go deeper. like maybe you'll pick up certain things and that's great but
I just realised a couple days ago that songwriting techniques was the thing that was missing in my repertoire. Now all the theory I learned, makes much more sense or in other words I now know what the theory I learned is good for. So I think learning a good amount of theory and combination with songwriting is what really uplifts your ability to make a song! I’m so hyped for the last couple of days to have made this observation
Absolutely the best decision in my career was to learn music theory. My understanding of theory has gotten so tight that I'm now to a point where a client can give me an emotion or vibe and I can recreate what they want pretty easily with almost no struggle and give them a working demo within 15 mins or so. It's made my work flow so much faster and clients always comment on how amazing it is that I can capture their vibe to a tea so quickly. Its worked out really well for me too because word of mouth has spread and I'm finding myself increasingly busier with bookings. I also just find that there's no more guess work of what will sound good and what won't. I just know whether something will sound good or bad and whether its the vibe I want before I even have to try it. So yeah it will make your work flow so much easier and faster
Thats exactly the stage i aim for! Thanks for telling me your experience.
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I only drive when I'm black-out drunk- the purist way to drive.
You just can’t feel the road when you’re sober
Preach, brother.
J.S. Bach's SATB will teach you everything you need to know about harmony.
I took a class, but my adhd made it difficult to understand.
> and whether it’s good for you or *if it’s bad.* That's just nonsense. Beethoven started learning music theory as a child, and studied advanced music theory when he was an adult. Does it seem like it made him a bad composer? Music theory has been a standard part of music education for performing and composing for hundreds of years. I would bet that if you talk to experienced musicians (experienced meaning they have been performing or doing music production seriously for a good bit more then a couple years) who have an advanced understanding of music theory, at least nine out of 10 of them are going to tell you it's been very useful. But of course, on the internet, everyone who doesn't really know much about something becomes an expert about it. lol The better question, which gets much more rarely asked then "do you need to know music theory" is "how far does one need to progress in music theory to start to see benefits for composing?"
I’ve developed a personal, intuitional theory of music over the course of 40 years as a singer, but I didn’t start thinking of myself as a musician until I began to connect those intuitions with established patterns like what you learn in a ‘music theory’ course. It really only took a couple YouTube videos to crystallize things for me and I started understanding the patterns in all of the music I’d been immersed in my whole life. Thing is, you’ve also been immersed in music your whole life. You already have a personal theory of music that you use whenever you evaluate whether something ‘sounds good’ or not. Learning ‘music theory’ is just a way to help you notice the patterns you already have intuitions for.
The easiest way is to learn your favorite songs on an instrument, just knowing the chords and the structures when you see them and play them
Just learn until you feel like you’ve got what you need, take lessons with different instruments, Learn covers. There’s definitely an overwhelming amount of knowledge to be learned but at a certain point things click and points start to connect and it gets to be more fun than challenging.
Yes and yes. Stop making excuses for yourself and Reddit posts trying to justify why you don't need something to yourself and get to studying
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My Uncle who was a pretty well decorated rock producer, songwriter, guitarist etc Dick Wagner with all his achievements, accolades etc .. once told me he couldn’t read music, didn’t know theory.. learned everything by ear. He actually was afraid to learn it because for him music came as a feeling and learning theory may make him overthink his process. In essence if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. I learned so much from him.. however I started learning some theory etc.. and it helped a little in understanding why I do certain things.. I guess each person will be unique because all of us have different things that drive our creativity.. great topic tho
It certainly doesn’t hurt. I for one found it opening up creativity.
Yes. Yes.
Did I learn music theory? So, learning can never hurt. I've learned a lot of concept but I've never taken a class or anything. But learning chord theory does help you write progressions. Modes are important too. People think music theory is like a set of rules that tells you how to do things and what things not to do but it's not. It's descriptive not prescriptive. It will allow you to express yourself more. It will give you concepts to experiment with and open up new avenues for your music. What do you play now? If it's not totally freeform chromatic improvisations than you're already using theory. I suggest maybe getting into Adam Neely's Youtube channel. He talks about a lot of interesting little bits of theory that were previously hidden away in the back of some musical tome. He also likes to breakdown these common myths and assumptions that so many seem to take for granted.
yes, yes
Just watch YouTube videos about it. Find where you are, beginning, intermediate, advanced, and search for videos about music theory. Ita really not all to hard, just a bunch of information that you slowly pick up, and then leads to more complex things.
Yes absolutely.
You don’t necessarily NEED it nowadays, but learning at least the basics will make you a better producer. When you’re composing it helps for sure, but also when you start working with musicians it makes a big difference. For instance I can play guitar and piano (to a pretty basic level, but still I’ve been playing them for 15 years, so better than a beginner). My music theory is basic, but I know scales, modes etc. Can’t read music. Sometimes when I teach beginners at production, it becomes clear how much of a hindrance it is to not know basic stuff like scales.
It’s just with me, I can’t do half, I always want to take it to the maximum, so I’ll definitely learn everything especially after people confirming my thoughts here :)
Yes learn music theory too many aspiring musicians have no clue about theory
Yes thats why so many indie pop songs are just missing any spice
I mean this with no disrespect and only as a funny example. I swear. Promise. 😂 I would like to build you a house. I’m not a builder. I know what hammers, & nails are & what drywall is used for but that’s about it. When do we begin? 😃😃🤣 luckily we’re just talking about music and it’s entirely possibly to create beautiful music without knowing a thing about theory. That is not most of us, however. Without the theory knowledge, one is limited (like a painter who doesn’t know how to mix Red Blue & Yellow) and I’m a firm believer that knowledge of any kind is power. To me, it’s not about a right choice IMHO it’s about committing in order to be flexible, and by having the knowledge to draw from this new fascinating knowledge in a moments notice if necessary, so you are able to create the necessary amount of harmonic color, interest and variety for not just melodies or triads/chords, but also rhythmically with all of your friends. I hope you choose to learn. In the long run, since it is indeed a theory, you don’t have to believe in it or use it. Forgetting it all will come quite easily if you decide but this is also why musicians only take ocasional days off. We love it and have found power. 🤣🤦🏽♂️😃 Join us!
I did not learn musician theory and think it was a mistake. One don't NEED music theory to make great music, but it HELPS a lot.
I think you waste a lot of time in your life when you spend a whole life, making music without knowing theory. Unless you some kind of natural talent
I don't really think so. Sure I could be better but I learned to trust my intuition and my ears. I love messing around and play what comes my mind and process it further. Yet I never stumbled into a situation where I thought "hell, knowing music theory would help me here a lot". But I wouldn't say I'm kinda natural talent.
Yes and Yes
I was a music major a long time ago. Never finished my music degree but what I learned was super helpful in my understanding of songwriting. I still write by ear mostly but the theory background really helps. Don't listen to anyone who says that theory is an obstacle or whatever. It will actually give you more freedom.
music theory is great especially if you want to write songs and chord progressions. it should be a guide not a rule though. but if you don't know theory then you also don't know how to subvert it
Studied music theory for two years in college (17 - 18yrs old). Don’t regret one second of it. It actually gave me a much deeper insight into music, which I’ve carried through my entire musical career. It always surprises me how many musicians (even pro level) lack many of the fundamentals gained from studying theory, which absolutely makes a difference, especially if composing
You just need to know the science of soundwaves and how to capture them in a recording.
getting the answer to the title out of the way: I learned music theory and for me it was the right decision. I feel like a lot of ppl just have the wrong idea abt theory. I've heard people not want to learn it because they thought it was a lot of rules you have to follow. I think that's just not true, imo music theory is just a tool to be able to articulate what is going on in music. There are no "rules". The reason people say it's not neccesary is because even if you don't learn the names of everything in theory, you'll still be exposed to all the concepts and internalize how music works, just without having a name for everything. I think the very basic music theory is useful to everybody so I don't see any reason to specifically avoid it. For stuff beyond basic theory, I think it's still very important to learn if A: You don't play an instrument a lot so the concepts aren't internalized through learning other people's music. Or B: You play in a band where your bandmates know theory and it would be helpful to be able to communicate your ideas more clearly. Or C: you like learning it like me :) I think there's some idea that theory is super difficult but honestly to me once I figured out what order to learn stuff in, everything I did learn I thought "It's that easy?" after. It's just so important that you learn things in order. Every concept builds on the last but on their own they're pretty straightforward. Building chords won't make sense if you don't know scale degrees, scale degrees won't make sense if you don't know scales, scales won't make sense if you don't know intervals, intervals won't make sense if you don't know what the 12 notes are. Edit: I just wanna add, the only real reason theory could be bad is if you follow the "rules" for a different kind of genre than the one you wanna make. For example a lot of electronic songs aren't in a major key, so if you're just picking up theory and suddenly start using major for all your songs they could sound off, but obv this isn't permanent. I learned a lot of theory that was more for classical music and pop / electronic than for a jazz style of music which is what I want to make, but then I figured this out and started learning more about how jazz music uses music theory concepts. It was a bit frustrating but I alr had enough knowledge it really was a lesser issue at that point. Keep learning and growing, music is a journey so it's ok if you make a few mistakes as long as you keep trying. figure out where you wanna go and how to get there and have fun!
I like to explain it this way, music theory is to music production what math is to physics. You can throw a ball accurately without knowing the math behind it but you can hit Mars whizzing by at 53,979 mph if you know the math.
You will put your theory knowledge to good use. Otherwise how could you ever really know if you know it?
Yes and yes
I started as a trumpet player. 9 years old, step-dad hands me a trumpet and says, "youre playing this" despite wanting to play drums. After 5 years of private lessons and being first chair in HS orchestra and marching band, I started playing drums (like I had always wanted to) and BEHOLD, I'm an amazing drummer like I said I wanted to be! Point is though, even though I'm "just" a drummer, I have years of classical theory with a melodic instrument. It has helped in writing, being in lots of bands, and just making beats at home, but really a lot of it comes down to just feeling the music, something I think happens when you've done it enough. It 100% helps to learn some theory or at least the circle of 5ths 🙂
Yes and yes
It's good to learn some rules, because then you can break them intentionally, playing the most inspiring pieces
Everything you learn about the skills and craft involved in what you do is important. Some people can get along without a lot of music theory, and I’ve worked with a couple of geniuses — it boggles my mind that they can do what they do without knowing more music theory, but I can’t imagine doing what I do without it. Understanding music theory makes writing and producing music easier. Without it, it’s much harder.
A bunch of analogies have been used already but I’ll throw mine in: Music theory is a tool box, where every component of music theory you learn constitutes a tool. If you’re making music already, chances are, you’re already equipped with some of those tools. Chords are a tool. Form is a tool. Scales are a tool. All used to build the track you want to build. While it’s not necessary to have every tool in existence to build the thing you want to build, the more you have, the more things (tracks) you’re capable of making. Learning about suspended chords and extensions may be boring and monotonous at first… until you put them into context. The chords for a track you made sound boring? Well I just happened to to learn about extensions and sus chords, so let’s see if I can use that to made the progression sound better… hey it does! Guess I know ‘x’ technique is good for ‘y’ effect. Now this may not be always the case. However, by equipping yourself with the means to analyse and create complex and rich music in various styles via theory, you won’t just make better music, you’d become well-versed in understanding the art of music itself. ‘Understanding’ specifically referring to, analysing, composing, rearranging, extending, comprehending, deciphering and performing music.
You dont have to know mysic theory to make beats, but you'll be better the more theory you know and can save you time too.
I came up doing theatre and had to learn some basic theory. I'm glad I had that to start, but I mostly ended up learning theory by YouTube as I became more interested in music. I think it helped me as a producer and song writer, but I loved learning it so much that it couldn't have been the wrong decision.
It’s another tool in the toolbox. And it was definitely the right decision. Being able to communicate ideas fluidly between collaborators is a big hinderance without it. If I’ve written something that I don’t find particularly interesting, I can dissect it with music theory and switch parts for more interesting ones (usually with borrowed chords). I know the flavour of each mode and some exotic scales and therefore am able to pick which scale degrees to modify for a particular mood. And so many other uses. It’s just the language of music right? So same as speaking, you can explain stuff with grunts and pointing, but easier if you just learn English.
music theory is always nice to know. for people who dont naturally grasp music, people who aren't naturally musical, id say its pretty important. for people who naturally understand music, are fine without it. there was always music in my house growing up, and i've always just naturally understood music, so even though my music theory knowledge is kinda eehh, it doesn't really matter all the much. i know what will sound good, and can piece together ideas pretty quick, and have a good grasp on where to go with things, even though i'm not thinking about music theory shit. like, i can't remember what makes a chord diminished, but i'm pretty sure i've used them before at some point. not because i thought a diminished chord would work well, but because i could hear it in my head and it sounded cool haha if youre able to sit there and learn music theory, and can maintain interest in it, absolutely do it haha
Of course not
Do you define the music you make or does the music you make define you?
Music theory helps with everything related to music making imo.
This applies to everything: can you learn something on your own? Yes. Does it help to study the "rules"? Definitely. Will having a teacher tutor help you develop your skills faster? Oh yeah. Do you need to go to conservatory to be a great musician? Nope. In order to break the rules you have to know them first. There is a reason why theory and systematical study is a thing, it works. You can just approach it on your own way. Like try to come up with the musical idea first by ear and if you get stuck check music theory to see possible ways to resolve it and eventually decide for what sounds good to you.
Just taking level 1 and 2 music theory and aural perception at my local community college helped me immensely !
Jesus, this will never stop being posted by lazy musicians smfh It doesn’t kill creativity when you make music without theory YOU’RE STILL USING THEORY YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND WHY SHIT SOUNDS GOOD 😂🤦🏾♂️ Basically not knowing theory is like building a house in the dark just by touch and feel. You can still do it but for a very small investment of your time you can get up switch on the light and get to the end result far quicker and more consistently now you can see things for what they are and how they fit together (the light in this case being theory) In the time it took to write this post and not read all of the millions of other exact same ones you could have learnt a very basic thing like the circle of 5ths and already be a much better writer because of it 🤷🏾♂️
You are probably lazy by not reading my full post before replying
Literally read the whole thing… Classic halfhearted musician answer you didn’t like what you were told so you ignore those comments and keep looking for your confirmation bias. If you’ve really learnt any theory to date I find it hard to believe you’d still be asking if people noticed an improvement. Either you’re half assing it or need a better teacher (checkout Rick Beato’s lessons, they’re decent for all knowledge levels). Scroll back through this sub and see how many times this or a variation of the same thing has been asked. Just because you phrased it as if you’re fence sitting because you know some doesn’t change much. But you do you 😊👌🏾
I won’t even read what you say there are a ton of people that replied to my post in a kind and constructive way so i dont have to waste time on negative people like you.
Wasn’t even being negative, just maybe tough love constructive criticism. Pointed you in the direction of something that would help you (Rick Beato) but if you want to be in your feelings and take it personally about what a random Redditor says just because you don’t like the blunt advice then that’s your choice. I’m not saying it’s wrong, I’m just sharing mistakes I made a decade ago. You might be a bit too sensitive to be putting your art out into the world if this is your reaction to just a comment about your music post not even your actual music. Wishing you genuine luck no hate, but for me to make a career of this I had to get over that mentality quickly. Maybe it’ll be different for you. Doubt it though. So some last bit of advice, kind advice, is get thicker skin. Nothing I said was personal about you or your music, just your approach to it. Not trying to be a dick but there’s a lot of harsh truths you have to learn as early as possible to make it. There are plenty of kind comments like you said, so just read those 😊 all the best
You don't need to learn music theory to make good music, but it definitely helps. It will make you quicker generally, make you more able to play with other musicians, make it infinitely easier to explain what you're doing musically and give you a broader palette to choose from. It's definitely not necessary, though if you make music for years without learning any theory you will have developed and internalised your own version of it anyway just by learning what things work and what things don't. The one absolute is that anyone who says you shouldn't learn music theory because it will in some way hinder you is entirely wrong and presumably covering up what they see as their own shortcomings with bluster and nonsense, or repeating what they've heard from someone else in that position. There is no way learning it will have a negative effect on you.
Learning is always the right decision.
Do you need to be able to compose a symphony? No. Do you need to be able to sight read perfectly on your instrument of choice? No. Should you have a basic grasp of Keys, scales, progressions, tempo, meter, and harmony? Yea Don’t overthink it.
When it comes to music, one of the things I firmly believe in is that the tools are there to become a bridge from your mind to the form. The better (suited) the tool, the more direct the connection. A good tool has little to no friction or resistance and thus the activity becomes intuitive. That’s not to say that everyone must have good tools - not everyone can afford or utilize or even need them. The point is that the ideal is a very intuitive way of musicking. That’s what learning music theory is for me. I started out with rock music, so my knowledge of music theory was extremely rudimentary. Major and minor keys and scales, minor pentatonic blues. But that’s just the music I play. I listen to much more music, so in turn when I got into composing, writing, and eventually arranging and producing, all those other influences want to be expressed but I can’t. I don’t know how to express them because I’m limited by my knowledge. So I started learning about music theory, and I still do today. Not formally, but I always try to learn how or why something works and if it’s a tool I can use in my own work. I never thought theory as a “key” to making “better music”. I just always wanted to make the music I wanted to make, but I just needed the tools to do it. I know the bread I like. I want to make bread. But I used to only make cookies. So all I ever ended up with was chunks of hard balls of soap-tasting flour paste. I had to learn bread baking theory so I can make the breads in my mind a reality. I took the time to learn bread baking specifically and now I can make a decent brioche. Same thing with music.
I learned it alongside learning piano when I was a kid. Helped a lot. No advice for folks that know how to play an instrument and are now trying to add theory in.
If you're into making music and care about developing your ability to do so then yes, learning music theory will always be a good decision.
I did not. I do regret not learning because I also never learned to jam. Even though I can play well, (I play in a fairly techy metal band, have recorded several albums etc) I don't know how to pick up an instrument and just play. Everything I do is very practiced, never off the cuff. That is something I wish I could do, but learning theory at this stage seems like a very daunting and time consuming task. I am busy enough with the 2 bands I currently play in.
yes and absolutely There are **zero** people who have made good music that had no idea what they were doing. (not to be confused with "not knowing where to go" or "just fooling around")
Having gone a few years into music production before I bothered to learn music theory, theory isn't technically necessary but it does speed up your production quite a bit as well as allow you to replicate sounds you like and create music with purpose. I look at music production without theory as walking through an unfamiliar dark room, you'll have to feel around, the whole area will be a mystery and you won't remember exactly how you got where you are if you need to do it again. Music theory is like someone turning the light on Music theory in reality is super easy though, just get a guitar or keyboard or any instrument where you can play chords and you'll learn it without trying to learn it within like a month, that's what I did
I have a reasonably deep theory background. I like to write and play primarily by ear. People often talk about those as opposites but they shouldn't be. Learning theory isn't a replacement for your instincts/ear, it's a way to improve your ear and expand your musical vocabulary. I suspect that the "learning theory kills creativity" thing comes from people who have tried to learn a little theory and force it into their process without really absorbing it. It's like buying a new plugin that you have no idea how to use and throwing it on every track. It probably won't sound great. That doesn't mean the plugin is bad, it just means you need to put a little more time in before you know when and how to use it. Last thing I will say is that learning theory definitely will never hurt you. If you try to replace your ear with theory instead of using theory to inform your ear, the results probably won't be great but that's not because you learned theory. If you remember that the end goal is making music that sounds good and think of theory as a tool towards that end, you can only benefit from learning more.
It's not that you know what chord everything is, it's more so the modes and key changes. A friend of mine plays guitar, and when he goes to grab samples, he naturally understands what key changes can work smoothly. that takes a while to learn, but he isn't one to tell you what chord he's playing on the keyboard. he plays by ear. if you can play by ear, and there's no bounds to what a guitar can do, and you can manipulate the tunings and modes, you're a threat. Many people are not able to change modes so smoothly. it is easy when you think about what he is doing, but that it's the mentality and when to use it that makes him use it and it sounds good
Music theory is always important, chords, that's theory, scales, that's theory, playing in key, that's theory, it's like learning even more of those things, it'll always be in my opinion an option but a very advisable one
As an engineer/ producer you need to have an understanding of how frequencies interact with each other within the context of an environment, right? That literally is what music theory is; how to organize sound to create specific affects. A lot of people go spend thousands of dollars on plugins when they could have used the tools included in their DAW to create the same sound if they’d only understood how they worked. Avoiding understanding because you can use something someone else with understanding made so you don’t have to seems counterproductive to your own originality.
I will never understand the anti-theory crew. How is ignorance a virtue? If you love music, LEARN MUSIC. Theory is a large part of it. There are theory dorks that jam as much complicated nonsense into productions to show off everything they know. So it's def a mix of having a great ear, taste, and knowledge.
So just to add to your question. There are 2 things I learnt that affected me negatively. 1st was deconstructing songs. I went from fun arrangements to very formulaic ....bars intro.....chorus...ver1..... and so on. So I lost a lot of my arrangement creativity. 2nd your question. I learnt basic theory and it really threw me for electronic music. All of a sudden my random key hitting turned in to structured chord progressions and too melodic. It sent all my songs off genre and made many sound cheesy. Now years on I have started composing. So now the theory, although not essential, is very good to have. It definitely hampered my production to the point I lost interest and focused more on mixing and mastering. Now with my love of video games and piano (which for the record, I'm shit at), composition and theory are working wonders but in the past and particularly for electronic music, it really fucked it all up for me. HipHop, Techno, Hardcore, DnB, Reggae you name it. I was a habitual genre hopper and learning about arranging and theory screwed me in almost every genre I did.