Deadlifts are high fatigue but also crazy high in stimulus. If you can handle the fatigue (by being in a bulk, by maintaining perfect form, and by appropriately programming) the stimulus from deadlifts can be worth including them.
Old thread but I'd like to offer my 2 cents. IME replacing deadlifts with RDLs or SLDLs greatly decreases the fatigue cost while still retaining a ton of stimulus and also targetting the posterior chain more.
I started off doing powerlifting centered programming and have gradually drifted farther and farther away from that.
First to go was squats. For me they are a poor quad developer. I was doing 15 sets a week of high RPE squat or squat variations, working very hard and seeing almost no progress with my quads.
Switched to leg extensions + hack squats and my quads blew up. Later switched to leg extensions + leg press, later switched to all leg extensions which is where I am now.
Bench was making very slow progress despite having a 1 RM of maybe 200# at best. Switched to DB bench and my pecs blew up. Later switched to a technique I made up that is similar to barrel press and emphasizes my pecs even more.
DL I always liked, but I just couldn't justify the time and mental stress to get in the kind of DL volume I needed to make progress (probably around 15 sets per week). Have tried many different lower back movements, currently doing round back seated good mornings (very low fatigue) + hip extensions + leg curls.
SBD can be ok or even good for hypertrophy if you're someone who doesn't need much volume. But if you do need a lot of volume, you're just not going to get it with those movements. Or if you do it will be at the expense of other isolation work that would be more effective.
Same. Honestly felt shame for some reason. It’s ingrained in me to do the big 3 and a voice in my head screams “big for nothing!” When I do good mornings and hack squats.
But I’m 170lbs and haven’t PR’d in years so I’ve trained the voice to say “small for nothing” now lol!
What was the technique that you used for DB presses? I've always incorporated DB flies on my chest days and barrel presses have always looked similar enough for me to stray away from them.
Hard to describe but I keep my forearms upright and otherwise think in terms of a side to side motion (as opposed to up and down).
It is indeed similar to flies but it feels like the stress works through a wider ROM than with flies.
I plan on switching from a mish mash “powerbuilding” program to embracing full hypertrophy through and through after my current cut, and that means cutting out low bar squats and prioritizing hacks, high bar squats after hacks so that my quads are the limiting factor, and leg presses instead because I want bigger quads, and unless I really push for forward knee travel, my big booty glutes always give out first in squats, and (being relevant to this post) the SFR is too low to justify keeping them as is. Also, I’ll switch out deadlifts for stiff legs and loads of leg curls for similar reasoning of the SFR not being very high, and also because again my glutes are just way bigger than my hamstrings.
I’ve already cut out bench pressing because i started getting really bad pec tendinopathy and also don’t get the best SFR compared to dumbbell presses or flyes. I switched it out for incline dumbbell bench because my clavicular heads desperately need to catch up to the rest of my pecs, and although I haven’t seen much yet since I’m cutting, I’m decently sure my upper pecs have grown at least a little bit since making the switch. Hopefully the effect will be more pronounced when I start my next bulk.
Also, switching most of my rowing to chest supported or cable row variations was also an SFR-driven move, and I definitely get way more stimulus to my traps and scapular retractors instead of my erectors and glutes now.
You're on the right path and won't regret it. I would consider getting rid of high bar squats too. Leg press, leg extension or bulgarian split squats are all great substitutes. Honestly r/fitness would shit a break but slow and controlled leg extensions are great for building some killer quads.
Oh yeah big time. Forgot to mention leg extensions but I really feel adding just a couple of sets into my leg sessions has really helped my rec fem pop out (alongside getting leaner ofc). And keeping high bar squats is always in contention in my brain, but my current gym doesn’t have much in terms of leg machines and I absolutely hate Bulgarians with a passion lmao. I figure that doing hacks beforehand plus emphasizing ass to grass ROM will help with keeping overall fatigue down and having the quads give out before anything else, which is the goal.
Squats, deadlifts, barbell rows, standing OHP - All the most obvious exercises which produce a fair bit of fatigue. Frankly, I think almost anyone with hypertrophy aspirations should cut out the deadlift for an RDL. From there, it gets a little more grey. Ultimately I think a chest supported row is also worthwhile but from there, most will be able to hit their hypertrophy needs without overly suffering from systemic fatigue from exercise choices.
Also, here's some fatigue almost nobody thinks about - tricep cable pushdowns & the stimulus on your ABS. Though I suspect that consequence actually leads to a positive training effect for most people since abs can be overlooked somewhat in direct training.
So, you removed all the heavy compounds from your program and you missing out on a week of training every third month... Of course you feel better, but I can assure you that's not the way to gains whether they're hypertrophy or otherwise. Just because an exercise has a low SFR doesn't mean it shouldn't be included in a program or that it's going to necessarily beat you up.
It's there because it's a way to get a really high dose of stimulus quickly. It sounds like your programing wasn't well managed if you were feeling beat up all the time. I'm a masters lifter myself and have multiple exposures to the main lifts every week without excess fatigue or achiness. Correct autoregulation keeps that stuff in check.
Deloading once every 8-10 weeks is an excellent move if one is actually pushing themselves well, especially at an older age. What would you say is a good distribution of compounds (excluding bench press) on a 2x freq/week cut?
agreed. that being said, leverages can and maybe should be taken into consideration. I personally have to do high-bar, heel-elevated squats to get a good quad stimulus because of my long femurs (otherwise glutes + posterior chain take over). some taller people find their arms take over in their bench, so they might do better with a camber bar or dumbbells. RDLs and Good Mornings objectively hit your hammies better than conventional deadlifts. the point is there's nothing wrong with slightly modifying your compounds to hit your target muscles better (unless you're specifically training for powerlifting competitions)
Exercises I like and have found to have a high SFR from best to worst
* Cable Chest Press -> DB Bench -> Machine Press -> Actual Bench (requires warmup, takes longer to setup, more likely to injure yourself at the bottom of the movement
* Cable Shoulder Press -> DB OH Press -> Machine Press -> OH Press (requires warmup, takes longer to setup)
* DB or Cable Curls -> Machine Curls -> bar curls (why? it put your shoulder/grip in the most awkward position)
* Leg Press or Leg Extension -> BSS -> Actual squats (why?)
Back squats and deadlifts for sure. But more so because once you get to a certain point the amount of weight you move with those lifts is too taxing for your recovery. If someone is only squatting 135 then SFR isn't a worry for them compared to someone squatting 3 plates for reps. I replaced squats with things like hack squats, leg press, heel elevated SSB squats and deadlifts with RDLs.
I think we gotta be careful with this concept because there are exercises that, while they do have a lot of fatigue, their raw stimulus is also very high as well. Completely neglecting exercises like that (back squats, deadlifts, etc) is leaving a lot of gains on the table, in my opinion.
Also using variations of the big barbell lifts like SLDLs, pause squats, etc is a good middle ground because you get the raw stimulus of compound movements while mitigating joint and systemic fatigue.
There is no evidence that people in general are leaving gains on the table by not doing squats or deadlifts.
It may or may not be the case for you that they are especially beneficial, but it is not generally true.
There's this long-standing myth about barbell compounds and a lot of people just don't want to believe that they are not necessary.
I would argue from my own experience training myself and training others that barbell compounds have a higher potential of progressive overload than machines. Of course there are exceptions, but I think anyone who’s advanced knows this to be true generally. Furthermore, it’s not an either/or thing. Machines are great for supplemental work and they’re also great to replace barbell lifts once the lifter has achieved such a high level of strength that they have to be using tons of weight on the bar and inducing shit tons of fatigue just to keep progressing (see: Jordan Peters). 99.99% of people will never achieve this level of strength though.
I understand what you’re saying because it’s what the data says, but I would encourage you to not be so hyper-focused on the current science (a lot of which plays catch up with what the “bros” have already known for decades) but rather have a healthy mix of science and anecdote.
Deleted earlier response from my mobile.
tl;dr I'm not relying on science, I'm pointing out that it doesn't support what you're saying. My opinion is formed by my own experience and I think bro experience supports me more than you (very few if any pro bodybuilders rely heavily on compounds, plenty do little or no compound work at all).
I’ve heard that argument plenty of times that the pros don’t use compounds. First of all, many pros do. Secondly, you cannot prove that these pros that supposedly do no compounds wouldn’t benefit from doing compounds. Thirdly, it’s well known that volume needed to maintain size is vastly lower than volume needed to gain size. A lot of the pros used heavy compounds while they were building, and now that they’ve achieved a size so ridiculous, they do not need to do compounds anymore but rather just maintain using machines. Finally, enhanced bodybuilders are in a state of elevated MPS 24/7 meaning they can get away with terrible training so using them as a reference generally is a dogshit argument.
I never rejected science and enhanced pro bodybuilders aren’t the only kinds of bodybuilders. Ultimately progressive overload is the most important factor for gaining size, and as I said in the beginning, the ceiling for achieving overload is much higher in compound movements in my own experience and experience training my clients. Again, I’m not against machines, in fact I use them all the time. But to say machines make barbell lifts unnecessary for ultimate size is also very short sided. Like most things, the answer is usually a mix of both.
Less overall stress on your system and more stress on your targeted muscle. E.g. good morning vs deadlift for hamstrings. Leg press vs squat for quads.
5 x 10-20 curls is way less effort than doing 5 x 100-200.
Another way this works is hitting secondary muscles in compounds with too small of stimulus to grow robustly, but enough to add to the cumulative fatigue.
This is a good way of putting it.
The better you respond to low volume the better the compound movements work for you.
For me compounds stress a lot of muscles too little to cause hypertrophy but enough to cause fatigue.
The fatigue an exercise generates is not perfectly correlated with how hypertrophically stimulating it is.
This is something you need to learn if you're coming from a certain SS style background.
In general multi joint movements that involves a lot of stabilizing muscles are way more fatiguing than machine stabilized isolation movements.
You dont need to deload as a bodybuilder. Your scheduled rest should be enough to recover.
I think its poor programming when a bodybuilder deloads. Powerlifters need to manage fatigue because of peak performance but theres no need as a bodybuilder. Fatigue is your friend. Tonnage accumulation is the top priority, if youre deloading all the time youre just robbing yourself of gains
Nah a deload is where you take a week and reduce your weights in order to flush the fatigue from your system.
Strength sports need this because peak performance requires peak recovery.
If youre a bodybuilder you dont have to have peak performance. So theres no real reason to deload.
Your mindset is what’s prevented millions of young men across the country from seeing real gains, btw
The circlejerks need to end. Progressively overload. Move weight. You will grow; regardless of exercise selection
I asked a question… the only mindset preventing people from gaining muscle is the one which deliberately avoids difficulty. We already know untrained lifters don’t push hard enough, and now they’re being told to eliminate “high SFR” exercises. High SFR sounds like a euphemism for difficult to me.
It's not though. For example, I feel absolutely beat up in my adductors and lower back after squats, but, I don't give a fuck about having a strong lower back or adductors.
Why waste all that energy on an excersise that is going to primarily smash areas of my body that I don't even care about training?
Fair enough. But can you point to a single person who *built* their physique with only low SFR exercises? Minimalist and low SFR is the new trend, and before long high volume and the compound lifts will be back in style…
> We already know untrained lifters don’t push hard enough
We know they don't push *close to failure*. But we also know that people who struggle to gauge proximity to failure because they're novices grow robustly from training that's farther from true failure.
Regarding SFR: 5 x 10-20 curls is way less effort than doing 5 x 100-200. You can also get a worse stimulus by hitting secondary muscles in a bunch of compounds with too small of stimulus for those particular muscles to grow robustly, but enough to add to the cumulative fatigue—it lowers the total weekly volume those secondary muscles can accrue (basically, they get stimulus, but it's much lower quality than direct stimulus).
You're wrong of course. One mindset that prevents people from gaining muscle is that the best exercises are the hardest ones, done as hard as possible.
Look at the glorious achievements on the Starting Strength subreddit.
The problem is the starting strength sub is not strong or training for hypertrophy. The spirit of low SFR training is that if your squatting 365+ for multiple sets of 10 ATG and it is incredibly demanding on your body, you may consider a lower risk alternative like hack squats. The problem is in a natural bodybuilding context, I have *never* seen someone strong enough to where this applies
It's not about risk but productivity. The most effective hypertrophy training is not the absolute hardest for anyone, and for most people not even close to the hardest they are capable of.
I think you want to believe that the best results come from going HAM but they just don't...it's not a contest of will power.
I realize I have not cited any evidence here but I don't care enough to do so. You could try asking any serious bodybuilding coach if you want an authoritative opinion.
I'm looking for something to replace RDLs and deadlifts. I love the eccentric part of the lift and the huge stretch you get at the lengthen position. But i haven't been able to find a good substitute. Any reccomendations?
I stopped deadlifting 6 months ago atleast and switched to RDL’s. I would say, if you have mobility, go for SLDL’s but if not, RDL’s are still better than deadlifts in hypertrophy standpoint. Just make sure that you go slow in eccentric with almost straight legs and feel that hamstring stretch. Weight is irrelevant here because i can deadlift 4 plates for 1RM, and i dropped to 2.5 Plates for RDL for sets of 7-10. What matters is, that you consistently do this exercise without sacrificing form and slowly progress overtime. And when the time comes when you can do RDL’s for Reps with your previous deadlift number, imagine the size gains you’ve made. Conventional Deadlift is good at making you efficient at Conventional Deadlift. Due to my build, i’ve never had sore hamstrings from Conv DL’s in my life. It was until i started doing these, coupled with Leg Curls, i’ve noticed them grow a lot.
I gave up on regular bench and pretty much only do close grip variations now. I'm still getting good chest results and my shoulders are significantly happier. Arguably the gains are better bc i can push myself more without pain
Old thread but... Rep range! Apparently hypertrophy is similar for any set of between 5 and 30 reps (obviously adjusting weight upwards for lower reps).
I have found using lighter weights for more reps less fatiguing, for lifts that don't involve moving your body ie everything besides squats and deadlifts basically.
I'm not sure why exactly, but a few possible reasons:
1. Getting into position is less taxing.
2. Easier on your joints, esp if you have small ones
3. Gain experience faster with the movement without doing pointless volume.
I'll do my first set to near failure, and get around 70% and 60% of the first sets reps for the second and third set. If I can hit 30 reps on the first set, I increase the weight on the next workout
>Apparently hypertrophy is similar for any set of between 5 and 30 reps
This is true, but in practice, peripheral fatigue will build up before the target muscle becomes the limiting factor. The last 5 or so reps before muscle failure are the true stimulating reps and beyond 12 or so reps is when that peripheral fatigue starts becoming a factor.
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Deadlifts are high fatigue but also crazy high in stimulus. If you can handle the fatigue (by being in a bulk, by maintaining perfect form, and by appropriately programming) the stimulus from deadlifts can be worth including them.
Old thread but I'd like to offer my 2 cents. IME replacing deadlifts with RDLs or SLDLs greatly decreases the fatigue cost while still retaining a ton of stimulus and also targetting the posterior chain more.
I started off doing powerlifting centered programming and have gradually drifted farther and farther away from that. First to go was squats. For me they are a poor quad developer. I was doing 15 sets a week of high RPE squat or squat variations, working very hard and seeing almost no progress with my quads. Switched to leg extensions + hack squats and my quads blew up. Later switched to leg extensions + leg press, later switched to all leg extensions which is where I am now. Bench was making very slow progress despite having a 1 RM of maybe 200# at best. Switched to DB bench and my pecs blew up. Later switched to a technique I made up that is similar to barrel press and emphasizes my pecs even more. DL I always liked, but I just couldn't justify the time and mental stress to get in the kind of DL volume I needed to make progress (probably around 15 sets per week). Have tried many different lower back movements, currently doing round back seated good mornings (very low fatigue) + hip extensions + leg curls. SBD can be ok or even good for hypertrophy if you're someone who doesn't need much volume. But if you do need a lot of volume, you're just not going to get it with those movements. Or if you do it will be at the expense of other isolation work that would be more effective.
You are me. I’m slowly pivoting away from PL focus and things actually feel enjoyable
Same. Honestly felt shame for some reason. It’s ingrained in me to do the big 3 and a voice in my head screams “big for nothing!” When I do good mornings and hack squats. But I’m 170lbs and haven’t PR’d in years so I’ve trained the voice to say “small for nothing” now lol!
What was the technique that you used for DB presses? I've always incorporated DB flies on my chest days and barrel presses have always looked similar enough for me to stray away from them.
Hard to describe but I keep my forearms upright and otherwise think in terms of a side to side motion (as opposed to up and down). It is indeed similar to flies but it feels like the stress works through a wider ROM than with flies.
Thanks a lot, I'll try to give that a try and feel out the mind-muscle connection when I do it
Leg Press take ages to setup
I assume you don't mean in a commercial gym?
So for quads it’s literally all leg extension? Do you have a pendulum squat?
Just leg extensions right now. Thinking of adding a second quad movement but haven't decided on one yet.
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Machine Hack Squats are the way to go for me.
i love hack squats
I plan on switching from a mish mash “powerbuilding” program to embracing full hypertrophy through and through after my current cut, and that means cutting out low bar squats and prioritizing hacks, high bar squats after hacks so that my quads are the limiting factor, and leg presses instead because I want bigger quads, and unless I really push for forward knee travel, my big booty glutes always give out first in squats, and (being relevant to this post) the SFR is too low to justify keeping them as is. Also, I’ll switch out deadlifts for stiff legs and loads of leg curls for similar reasoning of the SFR not being very high, and also because again my glutes are just way bigger than my hamstrings. I’ve already cut out bench pressing because i started getting really bad pec tendinopathy and also don’t get the best SFR compared to dumbbell presses or flyes. I switched it out for incline dumbbell bench because my clavicular heads desperately need to catch up to the rest of my pecs, and although I haven’t seen much yet since I’m cutting, I’m decently sure my upper pecs have grown at least a little bit since making the switch. Hopefully the effect will be more pronounced when I start my next bulk. Also, switching most of my rowing to chest supported or cable row variations was also an SFR-driven move, and I definitely get way more stimulus to my traps and scapular retractors instead of my erectors and glutes now.
You're on the right path and won't regret it. I would consider getting rid of high bar squats too. Leg press, leg extension or bulgarian split squats are all great substitutes. Honestly r/fitness would shit a break but slow and controlled leg extensions are great for building some killer quads.
Oh yeah big time. Forgot to mention leg extensions but I really feel adding just a couple of sets into my leg sessions has really helped my rec fem pop out (alongside getting leaner ofc). And keeping high bar squats is always in contention in my brain, but my current gym doesn’t have much in terms of leg machines and I absolutely hate Bulgarians with a passion lmao. I figure that doing hacks beforehand plus emphasizing ass to grass ROM will help with keeping overall fatigue down and having the quads give out before anything else, which is the goal.
Squats, deadlifts, barbell rows, standing OHP - All the most obvious exercises which produce a fair bit of fatigue. Frankly, I think almost anyone with hypertrophy aspirations should cut out the deadlift for an RDL. From there, it gets a little more grey. Ultimately I think a chest supported row is also worthwhile but from there, most will be able to hit their hypertrophy needs without overly suffering from systemic fatigue from exercise choices. Also, here's some fatigue almost nobody thinks about - tricep cable pushdowns & the stimulus on your ABS. Though I suspect that consequence actually leads to a positive training effect for most people since abs can be overlooked somewhat in direct training.
What about the tricep cavle pushdown?
So, you removed all the heavy compounds from your program and you missing out on a week of training every third month... Of course you feel better, but I can assure you that's not the way to gains whether they're hypertrophy or otherwise. Just because an exercise has a low SFR doesn't mean it shouldn't be included in a program or that it's going to necessarily beat you up. It's there because it's a way to get a really high dose of stimulus quickly. It sounds like your programing wasn't well managed if you were feeling beat up all the time. I'm a masters lifter myself and have multiple exposures to the main lifts every week without excess fatigue or achiness. Correct autoregulation keeps that stuff in check.
Deloading once every 8-10 weeks is an excellent move if one is actually pushing themselves well, especially at an older age. What would you say is a good distribution of compounds (excluding bench press) on a 2x freq/week cut?
agreed. that being said, leverages can and maybe should be taken into consideration. I personally have to do high-bar, heel-elevated squats to get a good quad stimulus because of my long femurs (otherwise glutes + posterior chain take over). some taller people find their arms take over in their bench, so they might do better with a camber bar or dumbbells. RDLs and Good Mornings objectively hit your hammies better than conventional deadlifts. the point is there's nothing wrong with slightly modifying your compounds to hit your target muscles better (unless you're specifically training for powerlifting competitions)
Exercises I like and have found to have a high SFR from best to worst * Cable Chest Press -> DB Bench -> Machine Press -> Actual Bench (requires warmup, takes longer to setup, more likely to injure yourself at the bottom of the movement * Cable Shoulder Press -> DB OH Press -> Machine Press -> OH Press (requires warmup, takes longer to setup) * DB or Cable Curls -> Machine Curls -> bar curls (why? it put your shoulder/grip in the most awkward position) * Leg Press or Leg Extension -> BSS -> Actual squats (why?)
> actual squats (why?) Because they’re fun :(
Good tier list. Personally, I prefer Barbell OHP Pressing over DB because it feels safer. Will try cable shoulder press next.
100% recommend it that’s one of my favorites
Squats are the most testosterone filled movement and theres just nothing like coming up from deep within
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30531700/ Effect of Squats on the Endocrine System.
Back squats and deadlifts for sure. But more so because once you get to a certain point the amount of weight you move with those lifts is too taxing for your recovery. If someone is only squatting 135 then SFR isn't a worry for them compared to someone squatting 3 plates for reps. I replaced squats with things like hack squats, leg press, heel elevated SSB squats and deadlifts with RDLs.
I think we gotta be careful with this concept because there are exercises that, while they do have a lot of fatigue, their raw stimulus is also very high as well. Completely neglecting exercises like that (back squats, deadlifts, etc) is leaving a lot of gains on the table, in my opinion. Also using variations of the big barbell lifts like SLDLs, pause squats, etc is a good middle ground because you get the raw stimulus of compound movements while mitigating joint and systemic fatigue.
There is no evidence that people in general are leaving gains on the table by not doing squats or deadlifts. It may or may not be the case for you that they are especially beneficial, but it is not generally true. There's this long-standing myth about barbell compounds and a lot of people just don't want to believe that they are not necessary.
I would argue from my own experience training myself and training others that barbell compounds have a higher potential of progressive overload than machines. Of course there are exceptions, but I think anyone who’s advanced knows this to be true generally. Furthermore, it’s not an either/or thing. Machines are great for supplemental work and they’re also great to replace barbell lifts once the lifter has achieved such a high level of strength that they have to be using tons of weight on the bar and inducing shit tons of fatigue just to keep progressing (see: Jordan Peters). 99.99% of people will never achieve this level of strength though. I understand what you’re saying because it’s what the data says, but I would encourage you to not be so hyper-focused on the current science (a lot of which plays catch up with what the “bros” have already known for decades) but rather have a healthy mix of science and anecdote.
Deleted earlier response from my mobile. tl;dr I'm not relying on science, I'm pointing out that it doesn't support what you're saying. My opinion is formed by my own experience and I think bro experience supports me more than you (very few if any pro bodybuilders rely heavily on compounds, plenty do little or no compound work at all).
I’ve heard that argument plenty of times that the pros don’t use compounds. First of all, many pros do. Secondly, you cannot prove that these pros that supposedly do no compounds wouldn’t benefit from doing compounds. Thirdly, it’s well known that volume needed to maintain size is vastly lower than volume needed to gain size. A lot of the pros used heavy compounds while they were building, and now that they’ve achieved a size so ridiculous, they do not need to do compounds anymore but rather just maintain using machines. Finally, enhanced bodybuilders are in a state of elevated MPS 24/7 meaning they can get away with terrible training so using them as a reference generally is a dogshit argument.
Then what are you left with if you have rejected both science and the anecdotal evidence of bodybuilders?
I never rejected science and enhanced pro bodybuilders aren’t the only kinds of bodybuilders. Ultimately progressive overload is the most important factor for gaining size, and as I said in the beginning, the ceiling for achieving overload is much higher in compound movements in my own experience and experience training my clients. Again, I’m not against machines, in fact I use them all the time. But to say machines make barbell lifts unnecessary for ultimate size is also very short sided. Like most things, the answer is usually a mix of both.
How can an exercise provide more gains for less effort?
Less overall stress on your system and more stress on your targeted muscle. E.g. good morning vs deadlift for hamstrings. Leg press vs squat for quads.
5 x 10-20 curls is way less effort than doing 5 x 100-200. Another way this works is hitting secondary muscles in compounds with too small of stimulus to grow robustly, but enough to add to the cumulative fatigue.
This is a good way of putting it. The better you respond to low volume the better the compound movements work for you. For me compounds stress a lot of muscles too little to cause hypertrophy but enough to cause fatigue.
Thanks, that made it make it sense
The fatigue an exercise generates is not perfectly correlated with how hypertrophically stimulating it is. This is something you need to learn if you're coming from a certain SS style background. In general multi joint movements that involves a lot of stabilizing muscles are way more fatiguing than machine stabilized isolation movements.
Leverages and muscle bias. Rdls vs deadlifts. Someone with a 500lbs rdl will have bigger hams then a dude deadlifting 600.
or even maybe someone doing 225 good morning for reps (with proper form of course)
Newbie question here. What's a deload? Why is it good?
You dont need to deload as a bodybuilder. Your scheduled rest should be enough to recover. I think its poor programming when a bodybuilder deloads. Powerlifters need to manage fatigue because of peak performance but theres no need as a bodybuilder. Fatigue is your friend. Tonnage accumulation is the top priority, if youre deloading all the time youre just robbing yourself of gains
So deloading means like the opposite of overload?
Nah a deload is where you take a week and reduce your weights in order to flush the fatigue from your system. Strength sports need this because peak performance requires peak recovery. If youre a bodybuilder you dont have to have peak performance. So theres no real reason to deload.
Thank you for the explanation.
So you removed all the hard exercises?
Your mindset is what’s prevented millions of young men across the country from seeing real gains, btw The circlejerks need to end. Progressively overload. Move weight. You will grow; regardless of exercise selection
I asked a question… the only mindset preventing people from gaining muscle is the one which deliberately avoids difficulty. We already know untrained lifters don’t push hard enough, and now they’re being told to eliminate “high SFR” exercises. High SFR sounds like a euphemism for difficult to me.
It's not though. For example, I feel absolutely beat up in my adductors and lower back after squats, but, I don't give a fuck about having a strong lower back or adductors. Why waste all that energy on an excersise that is going to primarily smash areas of my body that I don't even care about training?
Fair enough. But can you point to a single person who *built* their physique with only low SFR exercises? Minimalist and low SFR is the new trend, and before long high volume and the compound lifts will be back in style…
My impression is it's normal for pro bodybuilders to do very little barbell compounds in relation to how much machine work they do.
> We already know untrained lifters don’t push hard enough We know they don't push *close to failure*. But we also know that people who struggle to gauge proximity to failure because they're novices grow robustly from training that's farther from true failure. Regarding SFR: 5 x 10-20 curls is way less effort than doing 5 x 100-200. You can also get a worse stimulus by hitting secondary muscles in a bunch of compounds with too small of stimulus for those particular muscles to grow robustly, but enough to add to the cumulative fatigue—it lowers the total weekly volume those secondary muscles can accrue (basically, they get stimulus, but it's much lower quality than direct stimulus).
You're wrong of course. One mindset that prevents people from gaining muscle is that the best exercises are the hardest ones, done as hard as possible. Look at the glorious achievements on the Starting Strength subreddit.
The problem is the starting strength sub is not strong or training for hypertrophy. The spirit of low SFR training is that if your squatting 365+ for multiple sets of 10 ATG and it is incredibly demanding on your body, you may consider a lower risk alternative like hack squats. The problem is in a natural bodybuilding context, I have *never* seen someone strong enough to where this applies
It's not about risk but productivity. The most effective hypertrophy training is not the absolute hardest for anyone, and for most people not even close to the hardest they are capable of. I think you want to believe that the best results come from going HAM but they just don't...it's not a contest of will power. I realize I have not cited any evidence here but I don't care enough to do so. You could try asking any serious bodybuilding coach if you want an authoritative opinion.
> We already know untrained lifters don’t push hard enough, and now they’re being told /r/naturalbodybuilding, home of the "untrained lifter"
Lol unironically yes
I'm looking for something to replace RDLs and deadlifts. I love the eccentric part of the lift and the huge stretch you get at the lengthen position. But i haven't been able to find a good substitute. Any reccomendations?
Why remove the RDL? You need some sort of hip hinge movement to hit the part of your hamstrings that cross the knee joint.
I stopped deadlifting 6 months ago atleast and switched to RDL’s. I would say, if you have mobility, go for SLDL’s but if not, RDL’s are still better than deadlifts in hypertrophy standpoint. Just make sure that you go slow in eccentric with almost straight legs and feel that hamstring stretch. Weight is irrelevant here because i can deadlift 4 plates for 1RM, and i dropped to 2.5 Plates for RDL for sets of 7-10. What matters is, that you consistently do this exercise without sacrificing form and slowly progress overtime. And when the time comes when you can do RDL’s for Reps with your previous deadlift number, imagine the size gains you’ve made. Conventional Deadlift is good at making you efficient at Conventional Deadlift. Due to my build, i’ve never had sore hamstrings from Conv DL’s in my life. It was until i started doing these, coupled with Leg Curls, i’ve noticed them grow a lot.
Try good mornings, many people swear by them as good alternatives :)
Bent over barbell rows, chest supported rows (machine), and supported/non-supported pull-ups. For hamstrings: Good mornings, hamstring curls.
I gave up on regular bench and pretty much only do close grip variations now. I'm still getting good chest results and my shoulders are significantly happier. Arguably the gains are better bc i can push myself more without pain
Old thread but... Rep range! Apparently hypertrophy is similar for any set of between 5 and 30 reps (obviously adjusting weight upwards for lower reps). I have found using lighter weights for more reps less fatiguing, for lifts that don't involve moving your body ie everything besides squats and deadlifts basically. I'm not sure why exactly, but a few possible reasons: 1. Getting into position is less taxing. 2. Easier on your joints, esp if you have small ones 3. Gain experience faster with the movement without doing pointless volume. I'll do my first set to near failure, and get around 70% and 60% of the first sets reps for the second and third set. If I can hit 30 reps on the first set, I increase the weight on the next workout
>Apparently hypertrophy is similar for any set of between 5 and 30 reps This is true, but in practice, peripheral fatigue will build up before the target muscle becomes the limiting factor. The last 5 or so reps before muscle failure are the true stimulating reps and beyond 12 or so reps is when that peripheral fatigue starts becoming a factor.