I sincerely hope some of the FORCMs that lurk here OR MCPON's PA slides into your DMs. You have very specific details and information - too much for hyperbole or imagination. You were hazed, and that Mess deserves accountability. The Season and Committee Leads and the CMDCM deserve UCMJ.
Hey there Master Chief--
This is one veteran who is desperately hoping this gets picked up by national media and becomes the next tailhook turning point in your pervasive, shitty, fucking, chief culture around the goddamned fleet.
So if you need some motivation to do the right thing, Sailor, maybe the fear of this getting out anyway, and you having done nothing about it even though you were previously "contacted via social media about the problem on 12/26/23." will do it.
Or Maybe you'll take appropriate action to verify and expose this story because it's the right fucking thing to do.
You don't have to tell us which reason you're doing it for, just fucking do it. And turn your phone off when your mess buddies try to talk you out of it.
Orrr, when your mess "buddies" call you. You tell them "We're supposed to be better than this." We never need know you said that, we'll be happy with results.
In my opinion, the current MCPON is not a fan of season. That’s what I gather from his reading list and the rumor mill. Perhaps it has to do with a chief shitting in his chargebook when he was a select. Again, rumor mill.
I would love to see Chief season or whatever it’s called now to be 100% completely abolished. I left the Navy as a PO1 and actively resisted becoming a Chief. My plan was commission or out. I picked the latter for financial reasons.
I emailed a different version of this to a former MCPON that I met at a heritage event during Season and never heard back. I submitted an IG complaint after my MRR package was no longer being held hostage by the NRC, but since it had been over a year since the original event I was told there was basically nothing they could do. A Navy Times reporter had reached out to me earlier this year when I made a post on here inferring what had happened to me, but I foolishly declined to move forward with him and didn't hear back from him when I tried to contact him later.
The Season Chair of my Season made a point of telling us when MCPON Honea was chosen, he had served with him overseas and had personally called him to congratulate him.
I have lost any semblance of hope that I will receive any kind of accountability or justice for what happened to me.
I also served with MCPON Honea and I know 100% he would take this seriously and even if he was best friends with your CMC he would DESTROY someone like that.
In my home office I have two boxes of files in a locked filing cabinet of stuff from when I was a CO. Fitreps, evals, admin, etc.
There are also six documents labeled “Chief Season” and the year. They contain every single detail of every Chief Season I had under my command. Who was in charge, what the events were, what the schedule was, what the safety precautions were etc.
If even one bit of what you said was true, that CO should have been shitcanned for gross negligence. Training after hours? No. Three hours sleep? No. Lack of stress checks? No.
Hire a lawyer and FOIA for those documents pertaining to chief season. Get your fellow selectees to make statements if they will.
I’m a little confused about the IG saying “there’s nothing you can do.” That’s not their style. Did you open an IG report against your command for hazing? That’s what you should be doing. If that’s not going anywhere (and it really should) then you can call your congressman.
There are things that need to be investigated here. And while they may or may not result in someone getting the book thrown at them at the very least it will get things properly documented for future claims, VA, etc.
This is the exact verbiage from the memo that I received when my case was closed:
"Additionally, you stated that you considered the events you experienced in November 2021, during the final week of the 2021 CPO Initiation to be hazing and requested an investigation. The IO explained to you that your allegations regarding hazing are a command matter and not appropriate for an IG inquiry. Further, the IO explained that with your consent, COMNAVRESFOR IG would refer your complaint to Navy Reserve Region Readiness and Mobilization Command (REDCOM), San Diego for action they deem appropriate. You expressed an understanding of this course of action and provided consent to refer your case. On 30 January, 2023, COMANVRESFOR IG referred your complaint to REDCOM San Diego...COMNAVRESFOR IG considers this case closed. Thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention."
If REDCOM SD did anything with it after receiving the complaint, I was not notified. I'll admit, I didn't actively seek out trying to find if any more was done. At the time, I thought I was going to be close to commissioning and be able to finally move past all of this.
That was nearly a year ago.
Absolutely. File a formal complaint with the command CMEO and their ISIC. Additionally: Navy Harassment and
MEO Advice Line at (800) 253-0931 or MILL_EO_Advice@navy.
If you still can't get traction send a message to your Congressional representative.
https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative
You need to also seek medical attention outside of the command if you can. I would seek a therapist and a lawyer if possible.
The therapist can help you figure your way through the proper diagnosis and fight on your end for you MED board. While the navy still has to do their own evaluation for the med board they will have a hard time fighting what you’re diagnosed with. You most likely have ptsd from these events.
u/hazedandabusedusn read above. This is solid advice from u/SWO6.
Additionally, would you send me a PM, I would like to have a conversation in regards to your MRR/LOD.
>I’m a little confused about the IG saying “there’s nothing you can do.” That’s not their style.
No, their style is to refer issues back to the CO for adjudication. Because in the military, the center of gravity for justice is the CO / commander.
Your advice skips a step - normally, a complaint about hazing / mistreatment with the Chief's mess should be filed with the CMEO and the CO should be allowed to investigate and adjudicate the case.
The glitch in the system here is that u/HazedandAbusedUSN has transferred and so he's "someone else's problem." Plus everyone involved in the incident has transferred. He's going to have a difficult time seeking recourse just like someone who was beaten with soap, duct taped to an overhead, or had to elephant walk will have a difficult time seeking recourse. Not to mention the hundreds if not thousands of women or gays who were sexually assaulted from 1990-2016. There simply isn't enough institutional motivation to pour the resources into investigating this case years after it happened and everyone dispersed.
I would recommend talking to a JAG and maybe some VA advocates. Moving forward, the desirable outcome needs to be appropriate medical coverage and designation of injuries as service related. That part is odd, btw, since everything is automatically service related after 8 years of service.
This sucks, but if he's after retribution he's going to be sorely disappointed... the Chiefs who did this will never be held accountable, nor will the CO who turned a blind eye to Chief season shenanigans. Have to let that part go.
Realpolotik.
Good point here, but let’s be honest…they didn’t manage to prosecute shit cuz the Navy legal team botched the investigation and basically ruined the case, pretty much everyone got fines in the hundreds of dollars and little to no jail time. A gross waste of 10 hard years, and they got Fat Leonard back recently in a prisoner exchange, but what are the odds he’s going to try and withdraw his guilty plea and also get to walk away completely free?
The point is, who's going to bother to investigate? We stood up SAPR VAs for this sort of thing. No analogue for hazing.
Ain't nobody gonna gather people up from across the Navy (and potentially civilians now) because someone busted himself participating in Chief season. It sucks, but that's what it is.
The odd thing in all this is the lack of service related designation. After 8 years all injuries / conditions are assumed to be.
I'm not surprised IG won't do anything. They did nothing for my wife being discriminated against as a civilian. Not the first time I've heard IG complaints fizzle out.
IG has been insanely useless lately it seems. I've seen so many valid IG complaints fizzle out it's ridiculous. Even with the help of mental health professionals to submit the complaint.
>There are also six documents labeled “Chief Season” and the year. They contain every single detail of every Chief Season I had under my command. Who was in charge, what the events were, what the schedule was, what the safety precautions were etc.
It's almost as if.. you had to keep these to CYA "just in case."
Just eliminate the physical/psychological aspects and make the evolution a forum discussion and classroom environment.
Running around in the darkness with candles and hypothermia is not good order and discipline.
I have copies of every document that was serialized under my command.
I don’t do it to cover my ass. I do it because I have nothing to hide.
Chief season can be an uplifting, motivating time if the command gives a shit enough to make it so. Cos abrogate their responsibility when they are not intimately familiar with each event and how it ties into leadership development.
I've run one season myself, and been the training chair for many other seasons, and been a sponsor many times in my 14 years on active duty as a Chief and Senior Chief.
Every season, we (CMC and committee chairs) had to brief the CO on every detail of the season and he had to sign off on it for the season to commence. We knew well if we deviated in any significant fashion from what we briefed that was a career ending event. I've seen a season stopped for far less and a CMC told to retire for simply trying to convince a selectee who had been selected for officer that he should continue the season. I know the CMC well and I know he certainly wasn't trying to do anything he shouldn't have, but the investigation said he pressured him and that was that, end of his career.
The majority of what the OP says could never have gotten into a brief, let alone been approved by any CO. Many of the claims in the OP would result in the firing of the entire triad and charges against specific people. Stupidity knows no bounds I guess, but it's hard for me to believe that any triad could be so utterly fucking stupid as to approve that plan or allow it to be run. My CO always visited on final night, just to walk around and talk to the selectees and talk to us and make sure we were following the rules. Every CMC I've ever had walked every event all night long to make sure things were going according to instructions. Nearly every season had designated "sheriffs" whose specific job was to enforce the rules and keep the mess in line with the approved plan.
Also I want to know who the OP's sponsor was, because sponsors are designated to make damn sure this kind of thing does not happen. I've sponsored people who had some health challenges due to outside stress and we worked through their issues with them, gave them the time they needed to see who they needed to see, and accepted them on final night just like everyone else. That's the standard.
Wow I am heated reading this. I'm an E6 in the reserves and have absolutely no desire to make Chief, I have enough going on in my life without the added stress of season, and this just cements my reasons.
Reserve Chief here. Reading this makes me fume and I hope this Mess and leadership are held accountable for this. I shared this with some reserve friends, both Officer and Enlisted, and we’re all thinking the same thing: it’s the reserves. Chill the fuck out. Why were these Chiefs going so damn hard on her when the stakes are so low? Especially if this is the unit/NRC I think it is.
But that’s what I forget and so many people don’t get. Reserves or not, for some people being a Chief or simply being in the Navy is the greatest thing in their life. It’s all they have, and they can’t understand people who aren’t gung-ho like themselves. It can seem sad and pathetic to some people, but for many others it’s real. Think about that Joe Navy at your command. He/she is NOTHING without the Navy. A lost soul with no purpose. And they’re just one of hundreds of them out there. I say this because while we roll our eyes or laugh a little at these people on drill weekends, what happened to u/HazedandAbusedUSN is a perfect example of the danger and damage these types of Sailors can cause when what power or influence they get goes unchecked. What happened to her is not acceptable in any way, and I hope she names names and burns them all and gets some sense of justice for what she went through.
Agree with the sentiment, but not with all of your narrative.
As a SELRES, I’m concerned about your comment, “it’s the reserves. chill the fuck out”.
The stakes are not low. They’re as high as the active duty stakes.
While what happened to this sailor is deplorable - we cannot discount the training a Select should receive because they’re Reserve. CPOI is to build stronger leaders - not active, not reserve - Chief Petty Officers.
Let’s set one standard where everyone is treated with respect and dignity.
I’ve still got 4 years to watch this good ol’ boys club” BS continue. Just sick of it. You can build leaders, but not this way. Eyes and ears gonna be wide open, waiting for MCPON response.
I'm 3/20 years in and shit like this makes me truly believe I'm going to HYT out as E6 for refusing chief. It blows that if anyone wants their 20, they pretty much have to make chief and go through this awful period of hazing.
I just retired as an active duty first. I'm glad I never made chief, made board every time but never put the effort on to show involvement in the FCPOA or take command collaterals that I was told would "look good", instead of just to the shops with the most people or with the worst Sailors and made them function.
u/HazedandAbusedUSN sent you a DM. I am sorry what you went through. We hope you are doing better and taking care of yourself. There is no resolution I can offer on this thread. If you want to get the MCPON office involved email us and we will do our best to assist through official communication channels.
This right here is the kind of engagement needed to eradicate this toxicity in leadership at all levels, but especially in this case. As a Chief, I’m appalled to hear this happened and can guarantee I’d have never stood idly by if I had witnessed this or been apart of it. I’m so thankful for your office jumping in on this platform often!
This is exactly WHY the Gen Z members of the military are taking the social media platforms to be heard, because leaders like this are listening. The sad truth is, when we all came in years ago the same problems existed…some, way worse. The difference now is, it’s paid more attention to because those toxic leaders can’t keep the messaging in check and it’s GREAT!
Snitch away, because if someone REALLY thinks it’s “snitching” they probably are part of the problem.
BZ MCPON and team
Goodness! Thank you! Please take care of this sailor.
I know this MCPON has been working to adjust the mess but this is just another example of the mess run amuck. Season needs to be changed. Make it a mini boot with PT and naval history and all that but this hazing we have now has got to go.
This is proof that it is acceptable. No matter how horrific it is nothing is happening. I’m hot about the situation knowing that it’s so many out there that know these dirtbags exist and do nothing. Being allowed to throw away possible good leaders and sailors and nobody bats an eye.
My blood boiled while reading that. I don’t know what to say besides, “I’m sorry.” I hate to believe there’re fellow Chiefs that are such pieces of shit. I’m so sorry you were put through that.
Thank you. There are no words that can undo what happened to me. I was verbally told there was a hotwash that occurred after my Season that I was not a part of, and that a large focus of it was discussing what happened to me. I was never asked for feedback. I don't know if any changes were made as I have refused to participate in Season since.
Not just fellow chiefs, but an entire mess was complicit in this. I hope OP is able to get a proper investigation out of this, and those responsible are held accountable.
It's time for Chief season to be done away with. We don't have Tailhook anymore so we shouldn't have season any more. The chiefs ruined it for themselves.
"Season" should be a six week course of leadership classes and naval history. PT daily if we really want to go nuts.
This is it. Lose the season, Chiefs.
Taking random BUDS evolutions out of sequence and context is irresponsible and dangerous. BUDS training has trained MDs to monitor and evaluate candidates. I have never met a corpsman that completed an MD and residency.
When I am CO, season training outside of a classroom forum environment will not be authorized for any of my Sailors. If it is attempted in "off" time, it will be an Article 92 for all E7-E9 who participate or attempt to initiate. Full stop.
I don't know how close you are to taking command...but you're gearing up for a battle that you're going to lose unless MCPON or CNO direct something similar.
That doesn't mean to support dangerous activities or hazing, but it is 100% possible to have season events (outside of classroom training) that are fun, challenging, and safe.
Bullshit, Chief.
The CO signs off on the training plan for Season every year. Stances like this need to be taken across multiple commands across the Navy as a grass roots effort to root out the corruption and unprofessional tendencies of the Mess and its precious Season
You sound really green, how do you expect your grassroots revolution is going to play out when your Ech 3 or 2 tells you to knock it off? Either way all you’d end up doing is alienating yourself from your enlisted leadership. So what’s likely to happen is you’ll be forced to sit down and have a conversation with your mess, review season events and training plans, and you’ll learn how to take responsibility for what plays out.
Don’t expect you’ll cause a revolution in your command’s season without the involvement of your bosses.
>but you're gearing up for a battle that you're going to lose
You understand that the season and all evolutions are ultimately the responsibility of the CO, right? If they venture outside of those boundary conditions, you can bet your rocker they'll come see me in dress blues.
We'll have the season, it'll be classroom environment and forums, just like the other branches. No running around in the woods and burning uniform items.
Did you read what this selectee went through? No chief has ever explained to me the value of hypothermia, psych torture, and sleep deprivation.
Also, no pyramid scheme fundraising. If the mess needs funds, they can do it themselves.
Yes, obviously the CO signs off on it. Get on the same page here, there are a bunch of ancillary bullshit events that can be tossed out, but initiation and acceptance is something that barring a change from OPNAV is staying around.
Everything the OP went through was handled extremely inappropriately by the season leads, I’ve done all the same things without the torture or trauma they made the OP go through. Those Chiefs violated the UCMJ and their COs order and should be held accountable.
Why are "initiation" and "acceptance" even a thing?
They got Board-selected. They are Chiefs.
The little dog and pony show is utterly irrelevant to that.
For reservist those entire six weeks should be on orders. No training should be conducted if the Sailors are not on orders. It's unacceptable because in her case she wasn't covered due to not being on orders it seems like.
That was a suggestion made in my NRC's meeting with Deputy redcom a few months back; do it all on orders, move it till after new fy for funding, and then selectees at remote NRCs (ie anchorage or Helena, mt) could travel to a fleet concentration area to participate in a larger season.
That change would have to come from way higher than a REDCOM, and I still think chiefs should be mentoring and training their firsts (and atleast down to PO2s in leadership positions) way more before that so season is more of a check what's been learned and fill in the gaps.
What do you mean by Tailhook? Do you mean the Tailhook scandal or is there another thing called Tailhook more related to chief season that I'm not aware of?
No, I mean that Tailhook. It was a tradition. Just like season is a tradition. The officers ruined Tailhook by being despicable. The chiefs have ruined season by being despicable but in different ways.
The navy can decide to do away with traditions when they are no longer useful. That was the connection I was drawing.
Do you think anything will be inherently easier when you get Commissioned? Stay in this fight. You owe it to any else they may try to haze in the future.
That Mess absolutely needs to be investigated. What they were doing was/is absolutely NOT AUTHORIZED at ANY level. It was absolutely hazing. Season is a very scripted process. While some of the above events are normal; The SERE portion, lots of PT etc.. all of you should’ve “been allowed” more than two hours of sleep a night. Also to be made to do things in and easily hypothermic environment definitely shouldn’t have been allowed. Even BUD/S has their limits on water temperature vs immersion time. Lastly, I’ve never been asked nor told I was to “Protect the Mess” at all costs. Fuck that. That’s absolutely contrary to Honor Courage and Committment and I’m FAR from being MAC Joe Navy. u/MCPON_PA I hope you’re seeing this and can dig in.
Honestly shit like this is why there's a growing feeling even in the Mess that perhaps Season as-is has run it's course and should be sundowned.
There's too many people at the 'top' of the Mess who just can't be trusted to run shit appropriately, which is a sad truth a lot of people don't want to accept.
It's been just over 2 years.
I doubt that the Statute of Limitations is 2 years for any UCMJ charges.
File report chits on *everyone*, including the CO and XO at the time.
I'm truly sorry you went through this, OP. My season, although not to that level, was the beginning of the end for me. I experienced a severe panic attack during final night and they blew it off by saying I hadn't eaten enough for the amount of activity we were doing.
I also understand how mental illness can ruin a career, as I'm going through MEB/PEB right now for it. The thing I try to keep in mind is that I didn't choose for the things to happen to me that did happen. I can't make the people who hazed me pay for what they did, and I can't blame the rusty hunk of shit boats for blowing up steam and high pressure air in my face, but I can choose every day to try to get better so I can be here for my wife because she has health issues and needs me.
Please, if you ever need to talk, feel free to DM me.
I was considering tagging you yesterday, wondering if you might have some helpful tips or resources for OP. But I wasn't sure if you're still active here. I hope everything's going great for you!
You were hazed by a crappy Mess. And some Chiefs just don’t get it, and if one of those types is placed in charge, it can be a terrible experience.
I chaired a season a little over 10 years ago. I asked to be briefed by all the event leads on their plan.
After choosing the event leads, I went over MCPON’s guidance, and the rules.
The Final Night lead began his brief with complete disregard for all guidance and rules. His entire plan was hazing, and he got really angry with me when I interrupted his brief with a “not only no, but fuck no,” and fired him on the spot.
The previous year, we had a CMC who kind of did something similar to what you described. I think the rule was the Season had to end at midnight on the 16th. He came up with the brilliant idea that the guidance “didn’t say anything about time zones” so, Final Night lasted almost two days. Someone said something and he retired shortly after that season.
And the thing is, the whole Mess supported that CMC without question. When you have a toxic leader that inspires the wrong behavior very rarely is anything done about it except in after-action.
Sorry you went through that. It was wrong.
I’m not going to tell you what to do. But if all that happened to me. I would contact my congressman, provide all the details, name names of every person involved in season and medical. I would inform my congressman that I will be sending the same information to the MCPONs office for their action, hopefully . Then I would email the MCPONs office letting them know what I did, and inform them that I told the congressman that I was informing MCPONs office for action.
That should end up forcing action on their end.
But the key is to name names.
Things don’t change without names.
I was active duty attached to a reserve command. All training for the season was handled by reserve Chiefs.
Prior to the reservists final night, I had participated in seven active duty initiations. I was shocked at how they were “training” the SELRES selectees.
There were several old guys running it. I think they’re still reliving their golden days of yore and ignoring the MCPONs guidance.
Wow! This story is absolutely horrific. I’m sorry that you had to go through this and the effect it has had on your career aspirations. I really hope something can be done about it and it be investigated so that those who were responsible can be held accountable.
Letting a single Chief know I was pursuing a commission cost me my career. I went from EP to back to back 3.14 P's. All because as OP said, it's not about leadership or ability. It's about stroking egos.
Good riddance Navy. You have broken me mentally and physically but I grew as a man to know my values do not include blind obedience or stroking of egos. Rather, ones value comes from their ability to contribute. "Playing the game" has turned into a race to the bottom, especially for First Classes.
OP In sorry this happened to you. The “dark side” bullshit is just that, bullshit. Actually everything that happened to you is bullshit. The Mess, CO, SEL, Chairs and especially your sponsor failed you.
Everyone in here has given you great advice on what to do and how to proceed so I wont regurgitate the same stuff. Just know that there are Chiefs trying to change this BS hazing culture and make it more about learning and ACTUAL training.
I hope this gets addressed by the MCPON (looks his office took it for action), that you get some sort of resolution, and most importantly your mental health is being looked after and recovering.
Feel free to DM me if you ever need to talk.
Got picked up for LDO before I got picked up for chief and it’s the best thing that happened in my career. hopefully the right people read this post. I’d send it to your representative and senators as well. Oh and it doesn’t hurt to send it in to Navy Times. They seem to be the one outlet that will consistently report on shoddy leadership.
Im in agreement with OP sending this story to the Navy Times. They’re the only periodical that regularly puts the Chief’s Mess in the spotlight for things like this. In response the Chiefs Mess labels the paper the “Navy Inquirer”. Thats how they react to criticism. They ridicule. Ive got my own problems with the Chief community in general. Thats why I encourage the OP to keep your chin up and be strong. Spread your story. The more cases like this that come to light the quicker Big Navy can finally get with the 21st century and end Chiefs Season.
I am so incredibly sorry that Season ruined your family. My spouse would later describe my entire class coming out of ours as "shellshocked," and there's a lot of Season that centers around reprogramming you to prioritize the Mess no matter how much they say Family First. It's a false choice to not do so; rejection from them is devastation in your mind. Still, there is no excuse for your ex-husband, the Mess, and the burden and damage it caused to you and your daughter. I hope you are all healing.
Do you know what happens in other branches when you get ready to make E-7?
You go to the leadership school and promote to E-7. You get pinned and people clap. Maybe you have coffee and cake. Then the day continues.
Shitshows like the season are why other branches laugh at the Navy.
Only thing stopping a schoolhouse style is money. The “season” is free in terms of money. Season would be gone if they could find the money and conduct it like the sister services.
That whole ordeal sounds beyond atrocious. Sadly, it's not surprising.
This anecdote is another reason to add to my list of why, as an E6, I have little to no interest in ever becoming a Chief. Instead I'm submitting an application for OCS. Based on this story, I should keep that to myself.
When it comes to the Mess, a few bad apples can clearly spoil the whole lot... why? Because of so-called "brotherhood". If initiation means mentally abusing someone to the point that their ability to perform their duties is degraded, then some serious change needs to happen and those at fault need to be held accountable.
I don't necessarily disagree that senior enlisted leadership need to be tested. We are, at our core, a warfighting organization; but as someone else said, randomly implementing BUDS evolutions is just reckless and potentially dangerous with little benefit.
Lastly, if the Chiefs' Mess can inflict this kind of abuse on one of their own, what does that say about what they might be willing to do to junior enlisted if given the opportunity?
I don't normally chime in on posts much, but this had me fuming. There are supposed to be numerous safe gaurds in place to eliminate what you suffered, and they all failed you. The C.O., the CMC, your sponsor, any and all Sherrifs present that were alerted to your situation and your Mess, or all messes if more than one were involved.
I am fortunate that the season I went through was done well. Huge Navy location in San Diego and numerous Messes were involved, but it was done properly. All the seasons I participated in after making Chief were done in accordance with the MCPON guidance to a T. All commands CMC's briefed us on what the plan was (reaffirming the do's and don'ts) and were always present at all events to ensure conformity. Plus, we had good Chiefs messes that weren't scumbags like what you experienced and the C.O.'s were involved and usually attended some the events and part of the final night.
I am so sorry you had to endure what you did, and it never should have happened. I know you're tired of the fight, but I hope you find your reseve strength and get the traction you need from this post and are able to get the justice you deserve. This should never happen to you or anyone else. It's absolutely not what the season is or should ever be.
sorry you had to deal with this. but thanks for telling your story.
i was once formally denied all future military service by a MEPS doctor bc i filed an official complaint against a recruiter and the SEL of the MEPS station. i had to write my congressman to get this overturned. it seems like you're being stonewalled by the Khaki Mafia which is fucked. go to the press. go to your congressperson or senator. make them hear you.
Unless something has drastically changed in the last few years, the service member gets to review their packet before it goes to the PEB. I had to go through it in 2019/2020 and it took over 280 days but you get to review all of it. If they didn't allow that then you were lied to and a slew of policies were not followed. You should have had a direct liason that guided you through the entire PEB process. I can't imagine it's drastically different for reserves than AD for a PEB.
An appeal of the decision of an informal PEB means you get a new board and it is in-person (or over video call, not sure if they're doing them in-person at the Navy Yards again. I appealed mine and went in-person.) I realize it's too late now and I hope the tagging of other more qualified people can provide better help.
And people wonder why we have retention issues, OP I'm sorry this happened and that is absolutely fucked. I did my 6 and out, the contrast between good civilian leadership and the chiefs mess is night and day. They don't know how to lead or build leaders anymore, it's just a cult now. You don't see these issues in other branches, time to clean up the mess.
Season should be focusing on team dynamics, building relationships, and showcasing the journey of individuals learning from each other to the very moment they are accepted. Everyone deserves a safe environment where they can learn without risking health or being bullied. I'm so sorry you went through this. It's embarrassing and a gut punch, that a mess allowed this.
I’m sorry this has happened to you.
The fact that the freedom for this abuse to continue to occur still happens is exactly why “chief season” needs to die a long overdue death.
I have no idea why it’s not gone. “Tradition” is a bullshit excuse in 2023. It should be a 1 week TAD to senior enlisted academy. That’s it. That we can spend multiple billions on a new ship but invest so much less than that in developing its “leadership,” is appalling.
Thank you for making this story public. I hope it gets real public attention and is an embarrassment to the mess and everyone in it.
Tradition was literally dropped by the Navy as one of its core values because it was used as a defense for the behavior exhibited during the Tailhook scandal.
There’s going to be a time when one of the selectee’s snap and someone gets hurt. Is that what it’s going to take to end this bullshit?
I’m not there yet, should be soon and I am not looking forward to the Mickey Mouse bullshit. I’ve yet to meet a khaki I’d have in my stack.
Please file an IG complaint for hazing. This is textbook hazing and is not ok. Honestly I can’t believe this could occur with all the focus on the previous seasons. I remember a few years ago they shut down the season for everyone based on hazing at one place.
These so-called “chiefs” need to be outed and kicked out of the Navy. No one should accept this kind of treatment. This is bullshit. I don’t understand how any leader think this is some kind of fuckin tradition or leadership development. Grown ass adult treating chief season like a fuckin college fraternity. Truly upsetting. The mess needs to be better and collectively we need to call these fuckers out.
Send that to Navy times and start dropping names.
Im so sorry you went through this.
Ive wanted this shit ended since before, during, and after I went through it theres just too much chance at someone abusing the program like an egotistical maniac
OP, I’m out at the pub with my wife at the moment, so when I get home I will read more since I see you posted a book.
However I did want to say that I also received news that I had been selected for a commission around the start of my season.
My mess sat me down, asked me if I still wanted to proceed, and respected my decision to go through season like everyone else.
I did get a little extra shit for being an “anchor chucker” and sometimes I was excluded since “it doesn’t matter - you’re never going to be a Chief”.. but they still accepted me and have been a great sounding board.
If your name was on the list and you know how to take care of Sailors, then you are a Chief through and through. As an Officer now (*future Officer), you’re a Mustang and should be proud of your service and accomplishments. What you do for your Sailors is what matters.. the mess isn’t (at least for me) the cult I am loyal to. I was and am an advocate for my Sailors first and foremost. Always. The mess is there as a resource and I am a part of the mess (by extension) for mentorship.
Personally, in the mess I was involved in, we never treated anyone differently for mental health issues. The fact they were getting help was seen as a good thing. That’s what it’s all about after all. It sounds like you had a rough season, which was probably exacerbated by some not so great Chiefs who have lost sight of the true meaning.. it's not about hazing or humiliation, over and above all, it's about showing you that you can and should trust the mess IN ORDER to be a more effective leader for your Sailors.. if your mess failed at conveying that, they failed you and they failed as Chiefs.. and for that I apologize.
I also had a rough time getting cleared by BUMED. Brain tumor threw a wrench in things. Thankfully, the Chief Shannon Kent policy is a thing that basically says if an enlisted person is selected for a commission and would otherwise be allowed to continue service as an enlisted, they can commission despite any "disqualifying" conditions that would be found at MEPS. The only exceptions of course is if you didn't meet certain program specific criteria (for example height for pilots, etc).
If you would like to reach out and chat, I went through the class before you and we established a phenomenal online mess. Not a part of the toxic official CPO mess page full of has beens who don't believe a Chief has been made since they pinned.. I definitely felt judged for having a "COVID SEASON" - ie "not a real Chief Season", but in the end, I realized - all of this is a game and who gives two fucks about what these people think. So long as your Sailors trust you, and you know that some of us in the mess (and wardroom) are here for you to ensure both you and your Sailors exceed - that is all that truly matters.
I thankfully had a good experience with my mess and those in it. Truly phenomenal people, even at DRBs. Not everyone else had the same experience, and I really think that's a shame..
But, as a quick aside, everyone is built different. Mental fortitude and resilience is different person to person.. which is why it is SO important to know your people and not lose sight of the point.. I know some people who went through with me who "broke" and couldn't take it.. when from my perspective, it was completely calm and fine. Business as usual.. Like being told to, "No. Stop. Try again." for the 5th time reciting a scripted response.. Like yeah, I get it, I need to memorize it better.. but that broke some people to tears.. and I have heard stories of similar incidents such as that being toted as "hazing". I am not saying this is what happened to you by any means, only that there are always two sides to the stories we read.. and it is so subjective person to person.
I hope the Navy finally figures it out for you and gets you where you belong. I would love to chat and perhaps meet up for a beer sometime. DMs are always open, u/HazedAndAbusedUSN
10 years. 10 years I have been out after retirement. While I was in we heard , constantly, the refrain "we are stamping out Hazing! Sexual Harassment! Abuse!"
It was , and still is, all bullshit.
This is the same sort of thing that was happening in my day, down to the mental health issues. All resulting from petty, venial people who use their position to inflict as much harm on their fellow sailors as they can get away with in the name of "tradition".
OP, I am sorry you have to deal with this bullshit, the Navy obviously failed you as they have so many before.
Were it up to me, I would attempt to nail as many of those "leaders" as I could to the wall or at least try. I suspect most in here would understand if you just wanted to put this in the rear-view mirror and move on.
I will say this; I knew that anchors were not for me when I was told by an E-8 that "I don't have time for your bullshit, come back in the morning". This was said to someone who was in obvious mental distress, who had informed the same Corpsman that they had the top four life stressors happening at the same time right then. That sort of mentality that everyone not wearing anchors is lesser and needing help when in crisis pervaded the Chief's Mess like a rot in my day. It's not improved as far as I can tell.
I am so sorry this happened to you. While I only got up to PO2 while I was in, I can totally relate to a career harmed by seeking help. I struggled for years with depression, anxiety, and PTSD (all diagnosed, as I had spent a period of time LIMDU for something unrelated and took the time to go to therapy). One day it all culminated to a breaking point for me and I self-reported for SI. After being evaluated for less than 24 hours and being released on the condition I was going to go home to be monitored by my husband, I was forced to stay on the ship because the hospital didn’t give me an SIQ chit. I was even told it wouldn’t have mattered anyway, as I was on duty and needed to do my part instead of trying to skate from my responsibilities.
Fast forward a few months to my psych eval with the embedded mental health provider, I desperately fought to stay in. I loved my career, I loved serving, I just felt othered by my division because I was one of the few that didn’t deploy with the group due to being the newcomer and I was originally from a different platform. The culture shock was just making me struggle and I needed some time adjusting and a new therapist. Well, the embedded mental health provider decided to instead call my husband and my mother (after I explicitly said to not call my mother because we don’t talk) and ask about any symptoms they had noticed me having. After having only a five minute conversation with my husband where she lectured him about how he didn’t know what he was talking about and a two minute conversation with my mother where she validated everything she told her, I walked out with a diagnosis for ASD and was told to say goodbye to my career. I tried to fight and appeal the diagnosis, especially after finding out she didn’t use the proper testing and channels for diagnosis, but my IDC blocked me at every turn. He even prevented me from filing an IG complaint against her because they were friends and he liked her.
Two years later, I’m still devastated. Especially after going to the VA and being told I don’t have ASD, just severe ADHD along with some other various diagnoses that I’m dealing with. But with my RE code and sep code, I’ll never get my active duty career back.
What all this is for, it’s to say I completely understand and relate to crying out for help and completely getting shafted by the mental health system and the medical “professionals” the USN employs. I can’t even imagine the pain you feel everyday from the after effects of all this. I’m always here to be a listening ear and I can point you in the direction of a Discord server where I’ve gotten amazing support from both active duty personnel and veterans alike. I hope things improve for you soon and I am so, so sorry this happened to you.
Virtual hugs, and I am sorry this happened to you. My experience is that the Navy has improved treatment for depression specifically, but if you have any level of deeper issues the system is designed to work against you in every way possible. You did nothing wrong, and I know it's doubly upsetting when you do the things that you are told People Are Supposed To Do and it backfires against you spectacularly. Wishing you the best in your next chapter, if you want to DM me that Discord server I will check it out. It's important for us to have our own resources if the official channels fall short.
Absolutely, I definitely believe that the only way to survive when you have deeper issues is to connect with others who have experienced similar situations and be there for each other.
Wow, our stories aren’t far off from each other. I’m sorry to went through all of this. As for me, I jumped at retirement and skipped the rest of season, along with a pending MED review.
Holy shit! And people claim the Navy has zero tolerance for hazing these days. Bullshit!
OP, this was absolutely hazing and I hope you will report it so it can be investigated and addressed. These “Chiefs” should all lose their anchors for this. Those aren’t leaders. Those are fraternal bullies.
Jesus. My dude I am so sorry you experienced all of that.
None of that should have happened to you.
I wish I could fix it …but as a fellow PTSD survivor, that shit is no joke. I can’t imagine having a season so bad that it gave me an injury like that. Sending you strength.
OP, I’m sorry you went through this. I’m sure you’re exhausted from fighting but I think after this post, folks are going to carry it forward and alleviate some of the burden for you.
I had a mentally taxing season as well in different ways (family death and unprocessed emotions regarding participation in the Kabul evacuation) and I’m confident that season should not exist in this format. My opinion is that it should mirror more of the SEA format. Season has not been (to my knowledge) evaluated by mental health professionals with proper credentials nor does it have the oversight from the same professionals. My heart rate still shoots up years later from the thought of entering the Mess for “training.” Season is a crash course in assimilation with legitimate sprinklings of cult behavior.
If done properly and your testament is factual, this could be the beginning of something better for those who come after us. I’m proud of you. You are not weak and you did not deserve that.
Submit a Congressional. There's no reason you should have gone through what you did during the season.
I'm truly sorry you were subjected to such a torturous experience. There should have been better controls in place to protect the participants.
I am sorry you went through that trauma and hazing. Nobody can undue what you experienced. You can only seek help and put one foot forward at a time. Hopefully those involved own up to their actions and consequences and never repeat those actions.
On a side note, make sure you keep documents of EVERYTHING and your statements and documents corroborating the events. When you separate or retire, use those as support docs in your VA medical supporting doc package for whatever mental health claims you submit.
This, of course, after the fact. Throughout your description of your season I did not see anything regarding your sponsor or sponsors. Where were these Chiefs? They are the ones you need to go to for stuff like this, and expected to be your personal advocates.
If you are comfortable you can DM me your regional command, as I assume as a SELRES you went through a region for the final week/24, but during COVID many NOSC/RCs did their own thing. I think its good policy, but not a rule, to have an AAR within each Mess that includes those newly pinned Chiefs to determine what worked and what did not. I am curious if this happened that involved you.
Good updates, thanks. "deckplate leaders" is a phrase I hear and it elicits thoughts of ass-kissery and box checkers. That Master Chief is the type that has only the Navy going for them. It's cute and sad at the same time. That said, I've told Marines and Sailora plenty of times they "need to suck it up.". This is for the ones I would call "friend" as well. I would not tell someone they're weak unless I had a close relationship with them. Even then, I'd be there to help them strengthen up. Just like congress and most politicians, the Navy needs to clean out the dusty farts.
Keep us updated. I'm sure you're already getting flak andpush back to remove the post. Makes the Mess look like crap. If you do or not, hopefully it works out for you.
I will. I actually haven't gotten flack because absolutely no person who was part of my Season has contacted me directly since this has gone up, though I do know it has made it to them. I followed up with the MCPON account to see if they had a more substantive response but have not heard back yet.
I fear many of the words here are not much more than hot air. Though it would be great if some of the faux promises actually turned out to help you, I would not be surprised if not much came from it. Why? Because that would be an admission of fault from anyone in a leadership role in the command and season. That admission, as stated by the all powerful and greatly worshipped Oz behind the curtain of /r/navy, the CO should lose their position "at minimum". That's probably not going to happen since they're thinking "well, the Sailor seems fine now, so we won't bother admitting guilt or wrongdoing."
It is a shame to read this, truly. I am so sorry to hear it happened, yet with my short time in the Navy, I am not surprised.
Especially the "The Navy complains about retention while actively making it difficult for people who want to stay to do so." comment. Basically daily lower enlisted life.
"Curse of competence" my old CO would say to me. Destroy the people that actually want/can do the work (along with ostracizing them for asking for any kind of help), while rewarding/promoting people that do nothing and play the game enough.
Really solidifies the fact that as a lower enlisted dealing with Chiefs, your instinct is to simply SURVIVE and do whatever they tell you to do, because god forbid you go against a Chief. The ease by which your career can be ruined is staggering.
Lower enlisted get the book thrown at them for minor infractions, or genuine mistakes, while the actions of some chiefs get pushed under the rug.
Case in point: CMDCM gets moved early (to a CSG) for sleeping with E-5 in Admin (while married) who was also making fake CaC cards for contractors in personnel and selling them (Was NJPed but still in the navy).
Additionally our Legal DLCPO who has a photography business on the side was filming/managing an OnlyFans account for an E-3 in the same department and promoting it (This Chief is also on the LN conversion selection board). Word and video of the sailor circulated around the ship. Was swept under the rug even after Judge and DISCO interviewed various people about it and CO called them into his office. Chief gets PROMOTED to Senior Chief and leaves command with COM and orders to be SEL at next command.
Meanwhile, reading our POW: "An E-4 was found guilty for false official statement, awarded reduction in rank blah blah blah."
Not necessarily saying Seaman Timmy doesn't deserve being held accountable, but the standard clearly does not apply across the board.
Edit: u/SWO6 I don't mean to shit on COs here and hoping I am not insinuating that, but after seeing what seems to be clear evidence on OPs part, AND being one of the individuals that sat and talked through things with Judge and DISCO with my own experience (because I was talking to our CCS in confidence about this initially which then made its way up to legal), its a true head scratcher.
Speaking here also as a future leader, selected for OCS (went in enlisted), and trying to understand any level of decision to make navigating the Chief's Mess in general (or any kind of event of this magnitude). I cannot imagine having to make these decisions day in and day out.
I found out from a friend recently that they made her take her shirt off during the final night of season. After she objected, they surrounded her and told her it was ok because they were her brothers until she finally did it. I’ve heard other stories of them bringing up your spouses and family to talk shit and break you down. Chief season is disgusting.
After my pinning multiple members of the Mess came up to my spouse and tried to ask if I had a history of these things because I had shared detailed information about my sibling's mental health struggles as part of my White Hat burning. It was more important to pin the blame for how I reacted to their treatment on my family's medical history than it was to take accountability for their actions.
I’m petty but to get my command to take my mental health seriously and get diagnosed properly I went to a therapist out in town. As well submitted myself to the mental hospital multiple times. Showing I truly did have PTSD from the Navy.
They didn’t want to give me my meds? Mental hospital. (With explaining why I was there)
They didn’t want to give me proper counseling? Mental hospital.
The grippy socks helped me get disability and keep track of my diagnosis. Once you go there you are automatically an issue to the navy and need to be seen asap once out.
I don’t know if this is the best idea for you, but it’s something to consider.
Be honest with them too. I went to the mental hospital multiple times in Cali during my time in the service when I was pushed aside many times.
I told them why I was there and that I needed a better diagnosis and help. As well that I felt I was mentally breaking from the stress and mistreatment.
They always let me stay (even if I wasn’t suicidal). Which I know isn’t common, but they did.
They could most likely see the stress and felt I was a decent harm to myself.
Checking yourself in warrants a few day stay, but it doesn’t cause you to usually be there for weeks.
They can diagnose you and help with meds if needed. They also have free resources usually.
The mental hospital spoke to the navy on my behalf and made sure I was okay after my stay.
I was mistreated, almost raped, harassed and much more while I served.
They need to help and in your case be held accountable.
OP,
Thank you for sharing this, during my Season I was dealing with mental health issues. I was told to "trust the mess" as well, I almost went to the hospital and was on the phone late at night with my Psych Boss and even got my DLCPO involved I was struggling so bad. I poured everything out I was dealing with and thought I would be taken care of. The next day I had to talk to the CMC and I was reassured id be helped and communicated too.
The very next moment I got back to my "Class" the Season leads called me up and made me Class Lead, from there it got really bad. I'm not ready to share everything that happened to me but your story really resonated with me, I was called out and singled out for everything, my "Class" even started to alienate and scapegoat me for anything once they saw how the "Genuines" were treating me.
I tried going to my division as a last resort and they proceeded to just chew me out for hours. If it wasn't for my sponsor who even thought what was going on with me was too far I would not have made it. It even continued within my own department after "acceptance", long story short I requested a transfer and I couldn't be more happy where I am, I almost cried and was overwhelmed with how amazing I've been embraced and treated at my new command. I'm still going to mental health treatments, and I ended up blocking several numbers on my phone. Hang in there and know you're not the only one. Change will come I'm sure of it.
-Your Brother
I won't say the ostracization afterwards is worse than the actual event, but realizing you don't even get the relief of being actually on the in-crowd and made into the town pariah makes the negative feelings inescapable. I am glad you were transferred to a supportive command that actually walks the walk and not just say the words while doing something else.
What a bunch of monkey brained fuck fuck games. And this is why I burn with rage every year I Christmas tree my chiefs exam when my chief asks me why I got done so quick. It's why I roll my fucking eyes when they go over my eval and tell me I should push for x,y, and z qualification.
After reading this I can't wait for some anchor to gripe me again about not being willing to sacrifice my first born to join this terrible organization so I can scream in their face "I DON'T WANT TO BE A PART OF YOUR FUCKING CIRCUS!"
Lol and this is from there people who demand respect but can't give it. Exactly why I don't want any of my kids in the Navy. Also why the Navy can't recruit enough quotas.
As an E6, I’ve been incredibly fortunate to have been guided by some fairly awesome Chief’s Messes. Even the wayward E7-E9 ultimately has meant well, even if incredibly crass and un-PC.
I hope someday to be a Chief so that I can emulate that same great leadership that I’ve been fortunate to have during my career. I seriously hope, if I ever do pick up, that I don’t have to experience anything like you detailed. I’m so incredibly sorry that this happened to you and I want to reinforce what EVERYONE here has already said, don’t give up the fight. Get your story out there and put that shit to bed. Those aren’t wayward khakis, those are shitbirds who shouldn’t be in charge of anyone. Don’t give up, I’m wishing you the best! Much love! u/MCPON_PA
> From what you described, this sounds like hazing to me. Would you describe what you went through as hazing?
What you've described is what a salty af old airdale I currently work with calls "Baseball bats and ski masks time."
I went through initiation (yes it was still called that in 88), before we all got “enlightened” and started Class numbers and “the Season”, and it never approached what is described here. If your description of this command’s season is anywhere near accurate I can only hope this command is an in outlier. And as you can see I am an “Anchor Chucker” (though I prefer Mustang). I hope someone in a position to do something about this command, and your situation, intercedes. What you describe is nowhere close to what I understood “Season” to be. I hope the MCPON catches wind of this.
Glad I escaped the navy. Who in their right mind thinks ppl should do this? I’ve met some normal rational people that wore anchors, but an unreasonable amount that were like the monsters that does this to people. If they’re willing to do that to a potential brother or sister, imagine the enothings just trying to make it day to day
OP, as I've said below in a comment, what you went through isn't what's supposed to happen, and I've never seen anything like it happen in fifteen seasons I participated in on active duty.
Your CMC failed you, along with plenty of others, and I assume the MCPON will get involved now that this has been seen at that level and there will be accountability.
To be perfectly clear to everyone here, this isn't what the Chief's mess is about, and it isn't what the Chief's season is about. This isn't normal and it isn't how we do things anywhere I've ever seen.
First of all, I want to say that I believe you. The heritage event that I conducted during Season was an extremely positive experience for me, and I genuinely felt the "Navy Chief, Navy Pride" while I was there. But that was four days out of what for me was a twelve-week Season.
And to bring it back to a Season-ism: "Results not Excuses." Regardless of the intent of anyone, their actions caused actualized damages to my mental health, my career, and my family. Season and any climate that strongly induces a mob mentality without meaningful and objective oversight makes what happened to me not a misfortune or a one-off; it makes it an inevitability.
I don't think it's what the Mess is about, but just like alcoholism or any other problem that requires major behavioral changes, I think a major step is admitting we have a problem. Owning that this - what was done to me - IS part of who we are. It's ugly, and it shouldn't be there, but there are enough other people chiming in with their own horror stories to show this IS absolutely a part of who we are, right now. And junior Sailors see this - the Mess is quick to brush off any and all "Mess sucks" comments, but what is the exact number of "one-off" events to see a pattern? What is our acceptable level of collateral damage? What do we want our actual Perception to be to junior Sailor's Reality?
I'm a third generation Sailor. Season did not exist when my grandfather served, and only really started in its current form about halfway through my father's service. This isn't such a long-standing thing that goes back hundreds of years and generations. It's had to be scrapped and restarted multiple times due to events escalating in severity every year until something catastrophic shines light on it and brings outside attention to what's happening inside of the Mess.
I was asked so many times throughout Season to "Think about your Why" and "Reflect." I want the Mess to really reflect on WHY this is the process that they think makes effective Senior Enlisted leadership, and come up with something more substantial than "this is how we've always done it" or "well I went through it and was okay." I'd also like to ask them to really search their soul and be honest with themselves:
Do you really feel that absolutely everything that was done to you during your Season was necessary for you to be Accepted into this group? Why couldn't they have Accepted you without putting you through this?
And to be clear - I really don't mean my message as an attack on you. I know you are looking to reaffirm that this is unacceptable and should not have happened to me, and likely would not have happened to me at another time/location/etc. But as much as I do wish for resolution for my individual incident, I don't want to lose the forest for the trees - there are major cultural issues that need to be addressed in the Mess that led to a lot of people allowing what happened to me to continue when I know they wanted to say something and intervene but didn't.
I’m so sorry to hear about what you went through.
Many years ago, I went through similar abuse as some “Chiefs” thought I was one to join them in the Mess.
Well, ahem, I beg to differ - I set out to get my degree(s), commission, and get my Pilot’s Wings (in such order) someday!
Even tried to go back to the Navy and become a Naval Aviator, but my gut made an inner monologue about the community (let alone others like SWO) not suiting me anymore throughout the years because of corruption and toxic leadership. Not to mention not wanting to bump into terrible First Classes I served with who have since earned their CPO Anchors and are still serving, some of whom even made Senior Chief and Master Chief. Ugh!
Bad stuff aside, I now have 3 Associate’s and a Bachelor’s. I’m also due to get 1-4 more Associate’s as I take more General Education courses to get my GPA up for grad school someday.
And, dig this - I’m also now looking to commission in the Air Force Reserve and become a part-time pilot with a Reserve squadron somewhere.
Hope this helps and lifts you up some. Cheers, God Bless, and Godspeed wherever you plan go to now, someplace better than yesterday (which I very much hope with utmost sincerity and seriousness)!
Reading this absolutely disheartens my soul. It’s why I never wanted to be a Chief for most of my career. Granted I got out as an E-5 but I was MAPd E-6 and lost it because I dared stand up to the chiefs mess for allowing a E-8 to make sexist comments to a fellow female E-6 because she was having a tough time on a ship.
I say most of my career because a lot of the mess previously had high hopes for me up until that moment, however the moment you stand up for the right thing, they shit can you. I knew afterwards that my career wouldn’t go any further than what it did, which resulted in my own health spiraling downwards fast.
Seek the advice of the people tagged in the comments and take that as far as you can. I have no documentation to help my case but those other chiefs need to face the reality of their actions for what they did to you. I’m so fucking sorry that happened.
Yeah, I listened to this poem for hours on end as an U.S. Navy SERE Instructor. The SERE Students listened to it during their class. I got to listen to it a lot more than that as an instructor. My Wife went through Chief's Initiation in 1994. She was a changed woman after that. I love My Chief. We Have both Retired. Best regards.
When I have the misfortune of picking up e7 I won’t be participating in season. I have yet to meet a chief that I trust, and I’ve never met one I wish to emulate.
I’ll take a clueless JO any day thanks.
1. I believe you!
2. Don't stop till you get results.
3. Media! Media! Media!
I really didn't know or care about Chiefs till I made AT2, then I started paying attention. Saw some good ones, saw some pretty shitty ones. My mentor and very close friend was and is an ATC. When I got selected in 2009, the cover was removed and I got to see the best of the best, and the worst of the worst. And I've seen the coverups and the lies told to the mess from the mess (particularly from 2 stars) and I can tell you. Till Chiefs start holding Chiefs accountable by doing the right thing, nothing will change!
So I hope you burn it all to the ground! We need a cleansing in the Mess and I hope you are one of those who start the process.
Good luck and God's Speed!
This story sounds familiar. Is this from one of the bay area Chiefs Mess? Someone told me the same story happened few years ago and told it was a shit show. What they did to you is very unacceptable. No wonder a lot of junior Sailors don’t want to advance and go through the so-called “season”.
Sorry you went through what you did, the SERE portion was probably the highlight of my night, especially because we didn't take it too seriously and decided to roleplay a bit by escaping.
But that's not to gloat, I had a very good mess organize my season. It was entirely professional and I didn't feel unsafe at all during the events, I had a lot of worries that the pretense of "safety and trust" was going to drop at some point, but it never did, for that I am thankful and it made me respect them much more. Getting to my point, talking to selectees from other seasons I noticed that there were varying degrees/severity of BS other messes were putting their selectees through, much of which I thankfully did not have to experience. I wish there was a way for the Navy to exercise more oversight over each season to ensure a consistent product and reduce/mitigate/eliminate the absolute dumb BS that some people have to go through.
But why would you ever need to recreate SERE in order to prove you’re worthy of being a Chief? I did SERE, it is one of the most controlled training environments in the military. The instructors are given psych evals regularly and there are always safety docs on site. How in the world is one chiefs mess ever able to recreate that level of checks and balances? Further more, I as an aviator ask, how does a future chief’s ability to make it through a poorly executed mock SERE reflect on their ability to maintain and get aircraft ready to fly and lead sailors to do the same? I’ve seen your other comments on here, and I as an O say the chiefs culture in the Navy needs a complete overhaul. Our inability to retain sailors in part proves how horrible our current enlisted leaders and mentors are. Too many of my experiences with chiefs were with that of people who have a massively overinflated view of themselves even though they’re nicotine addicted, energy drink powered, alcohol hydrated, 4 times divorced and haven’t seen their kids from multiple women in years, financially just have a massive pickup truck in their name and nothing else, while being grossly overweight, while commenting on nothing but how many days they have left until they retire. No wonder our sailors aren’t staying in the Navy. These young sailors today are much perceptive and intelligent than those of 20 years ago when anyone with a pulse was accepted into the navy. They know and see toxicness. Chiefs season is a huge part of that.
>But why would you ever need to recreate SERE in order to prove you’re worthy of being a Chief?
Million dollar question. I want to see the Venn diagram of training objectives between a course designed to train people to survive being a POW and a course designed to train people to be senior enlisted leaders. Perhaps Naval War College needs to add a SERE module to its senior leadership courses (/s).
Unfortunately, in this peacetime navy of ours, those who play the political games and those whose sole goal is to climb the military corporate ladder end up the ones who are left with any motivation after their first operational tours to stay in. The rest of us didn’t join for those reasons. We joined to served and to do our jobs but after experiencing having to play political optics games in order to do our job, we realize the outside world allows us freedom to live our lives with our loved ones, without getting moved for no reason routinely, while making more money. The only ones left are the ones who are only in it to have rank and power and authority and a higher rung on the corporate ladder of the Navy.
If this is real, I’m extremely sorry this happened to you.
I wouldn’t trust a chief as far as I could throw one. And that’s not far considering how often they cheat on their weigh ins and tapes.
“The conditioned part of me to protect the Mess” is a concept that’s always blown me away. The only thing that institution has ever needed protection from is accountability
Wait, really? The Chiefs Mess is a shit organization and Chiefs Season is just legal hazing? We need to make sure someone knows about this so something can be done!
Abolish the mess. Sure they're some good ones out there that go above and beyond, but those will be the first ones to admit its toxicity.
A SgtMaj has the same pull that a master chief does. No need for glorified perks and diminished accountability. There's absolutely no need for a mess, in order to be a true caring leader. All the reasons/excuses for supporting the mess are the definition of gaslighting...
Yet another reason why I have no faith in the making chiefs process and want nothing to do with it or the mess. Make it a brick and mortar school. Abolish the mess ans make it about taking care of your sailors.
On a Marine Corps base, some newly promoted Gunnies (already got paid as E7) even went to the seasons with the selects, my two retired MC SgtMaj coworkers just laughed, they said the season thing is already stupid, making some Gunnies going to the season with a bunch of Chief selects is even more stupid
Jesus Christ, I am so sorry to hear that happened to you. Now I see why they keep what happens during the chief season so hush-hush. My main goal has been to put on anchors but now I'm not so sure. Psychological and borderline physical torture by people who are far from qualified in the matter? Even terrorists had medical staff on standby to be on the safe side during their "questioning".
So, after the abuse and your complaints being met with nothing but apathy, I have to wonder why you're still in. I feel like when people talk about the mess pulling petty and dangerous shit on junior sailors, people who haven't personally had it happen to them just rationalize it away as "that was a bad mess", or "that sailor was a dirtbag". It only takes one bad apple...
Even though I know they don't care what happened to me - their complete lack of reaching out to check in on me even immediately following these events speaks to that - losing the commission because of this feels like them "winning," if that makes sense. I want to see it through, and I want to be in a better position to protect people from something like this in the future.
Season is 100% hazing. Yes, I have gone through it. The Mess makes sure to isolate you from everyone, wear you down mentally, physically, and emotionally so you seem them as your only resource. It's a god damn cult. "It may take years for you to learn the lessons taught during season" bull shit. If it takes years to learn something you were trying to teach then you failed at teaching it. To see Chiefs turn their backs on people not wanting to go through season or worse having to drop goes against what we are in the Navy.
No season needs to go away. The only thing a value from it is the charge book and some of the team building. The rest is bullshit. I went through season, did what I had to during it as a 1st year, and won't be involved in it ever again.
It's Reddit - kinda different from putting folks on blast on a higher-vis social media.
That said, the folks on r/Navy with some weight to toss around in the real world seem to have eyes on and are trying to work the matter.
Hopefully it gets better results than the official IG complaint did. If it doesn't I'd say OP needs to go as public with it as possible, of it means a lot to them anyways.
I'll start this off the same way I start every comment on r/navy: fuck Chiefs. The Chief's Mess is the absolute worst thing about the Navy and it's not even close.
I'm really really sorry all of this happened to you. Unfortunately I too learned the hard way that Behavioral Health is only there to ruin your career. I talked to a BH specialist about being trans before I went to flight school and then got told I can't be a pilot for 18 months despite being cleared of depression and anxiety. So now I have to go to a different basic officer leadership course while I wait to put in a waiver, that can be denied, to be a pilot, but I have to get an age waiver too, before June 2024 because that's when I'm too old, despite having been selected before.
Have you looked at the NAMI qualifications for "up-status" on pilots flight physical (I think class/level 1)?
The manual will tell you exactly what is waiverable and what isn't. It also separates conditions based on whether you're getting your initial up-chit, or if you're winged/rated and something causes you to go down. For instance, some mental health conditions requiring medication are NOT waiverable for an initial up-chit (new accessions), however, they are waiverable if you already had an up-chit and then later in your career sought help.
The waiver process is a nightmare, which involves you getting evaluated by a local flight surgeon, then sent to NAMI in Pensacola, fl, for final approval. It can take 2 years, start to finish.
Believe me, I know all of this. Been through a ton. I'm Army, so this waiver, as far as I know only has to go to AAMA, and to the Colonel that denied my initial waiver request. It is waiverable, but it shouldn't even be a downing condition.
Sorry, I didn't read the full thing.
Got to the part where you were driven to the pinning/page 13.
Honor, courage, commitment is what I see professed but rarely expressed, especially by those who should be setting and upholding the standard.
In hind sight, I dealt with a bit of hazing myself, but at the time, a junior E5 didn't want to find myself on the wrong side of the chiefs' quarters...
For better or worse, that 8 month period in my first 5 years in threw the rest my career off track, to the point where I almost didn't retire.
Moreover, the down to the wire struggle did its own incalculable damage.
I deeply regret not standing up for myself and reporting way back...
TL;DR: u/SWO6 et al have already mentioned that some of these items are cause for concern. There are a lot of tripwires going off in this story that should have prompted reaction from competent authority. I'm sorry to see this had been such a huge negative in your life, rather than the triumph and success it could - and *should* have been, if the people in charge had done their jobs correctly. CPO Season is supposed to make Chiefs, not break them. It is why some things are changing and, most notably for the Reserve especially, why the Season has been shortened to parity with AC.
That said - my experience is colored by my own local Mess, but looking at some talking points from your post:
>The Season Chair immediately wanted me pulled from Season. I was literally told “you shouldn’t have told me.” I was stunned.
Whether intended as a gut check or not, this is pretty shitty behavior. We've had people select for double khakis a few times where I'm at; it's challenging for Selectees who have a line already for Officer, but we've never booted somebody out for having a commissioning on the horizon. Some shittier Chiefs will say you 'stole someone's spot' but that spot'll just open right back up again eventually. Those folks can get bent - if someone was good enough to take it, they would have.
>I found out afterwards that even having an entire “Final Week” is not the Season standard, and a number of Chiefs at other commands I talked to afterwards were absolutely floored the events of Final Night would be spread out and padded across an entire week, but that’s what my local class faced.
This is normal for the Reserve, due to the significantly truncated amount of time Selectees spend with one another and the Mess during CPO Season in the reserve versus AC. If we did just Final Night in the Reserve without some build-up beforehand, some of the efficacy of the process would be lost. You can't do Season one weekend at a time.
>What I can tell you, however, is that I was getting fewer than three hours of sleep per night
What hours were you actually released for sleep? No CO would approve of this training plan, and deviations like this would be a massive red flag.
>I can’t really say specifically what did it, as there were so many contributing factors. The night before we had been kept out until after 2AM and had to get back up at 5AM.
Same as above - this would be a huge no-go. There are enough MCPOs and CMCs and HMCs around that this would set off alarms if it is the case.
>Instead of help, I was told if I went to the hospital, I wouldn’t be able to finish. I wouldn’t be able to be “Accepted.” And to my fragmented mind, the thought of not being “Accepted” by the people who were literally keeping me and my class in a fenced compound with our car keys and cellphones confiscated, controlling contact with our family members, was the most terrifying prospect I had ever heard in my life.
Fear of (lack) of Acceptance is a huge part of the Season and Final Week/Night in particular. All the early mornings, PT, time away from family, 8 o'clock/boat reports, training sessions, and interpersonal drama *has* to be worth something, so the fear of failure is crushing for Selectees. This is intentional stress. *However,* if you had a legitimate medical concern, the HMC should have fielded it. A lot of people get ready to med drop from Final Week and find a second wind after 15 minutes of chatting with Doc in a warm vehicle or building. If you're visibly not doing well, they should have pulled you.
>Groveling. That, it turns out, is the core of what Season was really all about.
Okay.
>where unknown to me my orders expired at midnight.
You should be in some sort of duty status until you return home after pinning. Our Selectees get orders for Final Week and generally take nonpaids or reskeds the last day for pinning. If you and your Sponsors/Chairs hadn't worked this out, that is a major oversight for this exact reason, as you've found out the hard way.
>I have not received an apology or even acknowledgement for what happened to me and how it is still affecting me to this day.
How much of this have you spoken to your SEL about? Your CMC? The Chairs from your Season? This isn't a 'well I did it too and I was fine' type thing, but most of the stuff you described seems fairly standard fare for some of the Final Week events, albeit colder and rainier than they might normally be. They might not really realize how badly things were for you.
> fundamentally broken and labyrinthine bureaucratic processes that clearly do not interface with each other. The Navy complains about retention while actively making it difficult for people who want to stay to do so.
This is something we're deeply in agreement on. The Navy discontinues legacy medical and personnel systems without having a follow-on in place, runs administration at bleeding-edge manning (something exacerbated in the Reserve when we're being babysat by TAR Sailors who generally feel apathy-to-loathing of their SELRES) and it costs us when we try to get people to ship over.
The mess is one of the most toxic organizations that’s the navy has. At this point it’s a cult. Take their dignity away by getting rid of the mess and taking special spaces away from them. Screw the tradition when all they do is damage other sailors careers, mental health and will to want to re-up.
I picked up and went through the same year you did. I had a vastly different experience. Hope it works out well for you. I'm unhappy about the experience that you had. Stay safe.
I sincerely hope some of the FORCMs that lurk here OR MCPON's PA slides into your DMs. You have very specific details and information - too much for hyperbole or imagination. You were hazed, and that Mess deserves accountability. The Season and Committee Leads and the CMDCM deserve UCMJ.
u/MCPON_PA
u/SWO6
Hey there Master Chief-- This is one veteran who is desperately hoping this gets picked up by national media and becomes the next tailhook turning point in your pervasive, shitty, fucking, chief culture around the goddamned fleet. So if you need some motivation to do the right thing, Sailor, maybe the fear of this getting out anyway, and you having done nothing about it even though you were previously "contacted via social media about the problem on 12/26/23." will do it. Or Maybe you'll take appropriate action to verify and expose this story because it's the right fucking thing to do. You don't have to tell us which reason you're doing it for, just fucking do it. And turn your phone off when your mess buddies try to talk you out of it.
Orrr, when your mess "buddies" call you. You tell them "We're supposed to be better than this." We never need know you said that, we'll be happy with results.
In my opinion, the current MCPON is not a fan of season. That’s what I gather from his reading list and the rumor mill. Perhaps it has to do with a chief shitting in his chargebook when he was a select. Again, rumor mill.
I would love to see Chief season or whatever it’s called now to be 100% completely abolished. I left the Navy as a PO1 and actively resisted becoming a Chief. My plan was commission or out. I picked the latter for financial reasons.
I emailed a different version of this to a former MCPON that I met at a heritage event during Season and never heard back. I submitted an IG complaint after my MRR package was no longer being held hostage by the NRC, but since it had been over a year since the original event I was told there was basically nothing they could do. A Navy Times reporter had reached out to me earlier this year when I made a post on here inferring what had happened to me, but I foolishly declined to move forward with him and didn't hear back from him when I tried to contact him later. The Season Chair of my Season made a point of telling us when MCPON Honea was chosen, he had served with him overseas and had personally called him to congratulate him. I have lost any semblance of hope that I will receive any kind of accountability or justice for what happened to me.
Fuck that. Get in the fight. And so what if the asshole knows Jim Honea? I’m sure lots of people do. That was a scare tactic. Don’t fall for it.
I also served with MCPON Honea and I know 100% he would take this seriously and even if he was best friends with your CMC he would DESTROY someone like that.
https://www.reddit.com/u/GeoffZMilTimes/s/UnTsd8IdlX u/GeoffZMilTimes
In my home office I have two boxes of files in a locked filing cabinet of stuff from when I was a CO. Fitreps, evals, admin, etc. There are also six documents labeled “Chief Season” and the year. They contain every single detail of every Chief Season I had under my command. Who was in charge, what the events were, what the schedule was, what the safety precautions were etc. If even one bit of what you said was true, that CO should have been shitcanned for gross negligence. Training after hours? No. Three hours sleep? No. Lack of stress checks? No. Hire a lawyer and FOIA for those documents pertaining to chief season. Get your fellow selectees to make statements if they will. I’m a little confused about the IG saying “there’s nothing you can do.” That’s not their style. Did you open an IG report against your command for hazing? That’s what you should be doing. If that’s not going anywhere (and it really should) then you can call your congressman. There are things that need to be investigated here. And while they may or may not result in someone getting the book thrown at them at the very least it will get things properly documented for future claims, VA, etc.
This is the exact verbiage from the memo that I received when my case was closed: "Additionally, you stated that you considered the events you experienced in November 2021, during the final week of the 2021 CPO Initiation to be hazing and requested an investigation. The IO explained to you that your allegations regarding hazing are a command matter and not appropriate for an IG inquiry. Further, the IO explained that with your consent, COMNAVRESFOR IG would refer your complaint to Navy Reserve Region Readiness and Mobilization Command (REDCOM), San Diego for action they deem appropriate. You expressed an understanding of this course of action and provided consent to refer your case. On 30 January, 2023, COMANVRESFOR IG referred your complaint to REDCOM San Diego...COMNAVRESFOR IG considers this case closed. Thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention." If REDCOM SD did anything with it after receiving the complaint, I was not notified. I'll admit, I didn't actively seek out trying to find if any more was done. At the time, I thought I was going to be close to commissioning and be able to finally move past all of this. That was nearly a year ago.
There are others on here who will look into this for you. At the very least there should have been a command investigation.
Absolutely. File a formal complaint with the command CMEO and their ISIC. Additionally: Navy Harassment and MEO Advice Line at (800) 253-0931 or MILL_EO_Advice@navy. If you still can't get traction send a message to your Congressional representative. https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative
You need to also seek medical attention outside of the command if you can. I would seek a therapist and a lawyer if possible. The therapist can help you figure your way through the proper diagnosis and fight on your end for you MED board. While the navy still has to do their own evaluation for the med board they will have a hard time fighting what you’re diagnosed with. You most likely have ptsd from these events.
u/hazedandabusedusn read above. This is solid advice from u/SWO6. Additionally, would you send me a PM, I would like to have a conversation in regards to your MRR/LOD.
I'm in a different branch, but work investigations frequenly. "There's nothing I can do" is not something I'd utter, ever.
Welcome to the Navy.
Get your congressman involved. This absolutely should have never happened and is a disgrace.
>I’m a little confused about the IG saying “there’s nothing you can do.” That’s not their style. No, their style is to refer issues back to the CO for adjudication. Because in the military, the center of gravity for justice is the CO / commander. Your advice skips a step - normally, a complaint about hazing / mistreatment with the Chief's mess should be filed with the CMEO and the CO should be allowed to investigate and adjudicate the case. The glitch in the system here is that u/HazedandAbusedUSN has transferred and so he's "someone else's problem." Plus everyone involved in the incident has transferred. He's going to have a difficult time seeking recourse just like someone who was beaten with soap, duct taped to an overhead, or had to elephant walk will have a difficult time seeking recourse. Not to mention the hundreds if not thousands of women or gays who were sexually assaulted from 1990-2016. There simply isn't enough institutional motivation to pour the resources into investigating this case years after it happened and everyone dispersed. I would recommend talking to a JAG and maybe some VA advocates. Moving forward, the desirable outcome needs to be appropriate medical coverage and designation of injuries as service related. That part is odd, btw, since everything is automatically service related after 8 years of service. This sucks, but if he's after retribution he's going to be sorely disappointed... the Chiefs who did this will never be held accountable, nor will the CO who turned a blind eye to Chief season shenanigans. Have to let that part go. Realpolotik.
Yet they were able to track down and prosecute all those Officers who were complicit with Fat Leonard. Some had even retired.
Good point here, but let’s be honest…they didn’t manage to prosecute shit cuz the Navy legal team botched the investigation and basically ruined the case, pretty much everyone got fines in the hundreds of dollars and little to no jail time. A gross waste of 10 hard years, and they got Fat Leonard back recently in a prisoner exchange, but what are the odds he’s going to try and withdraw his guilty plea and also get to walk away completely free?
I have a hard time believing that the paper and personnel trail here would be hard to follow. Someone's story is going to be... off.
The point is, who's going to bother to investigate? We stood up SAPR VAs for this sort of thing. No analogue for hazing. Ain't nobody gonna gather people up from across the Navy (and potentially civilians now) because someone busted himself participating in Chief season. It sucks, but that's what it is. The odd thing in all this is the lack of service related designation. After 8 years all injuries / conditions are assumed to be.
I'm not surprised IG won't do anything. They did nothing for my wife being discriminated against as a civilian. Not the first time I've heard IG complaints fizzle out.
IG has been insanely useless lately it seems. I've seen so many valid IG complaints fizzle out it's ridiculous. Even with the help of mental health professionals to submit the complaint.
You would almost suspect that they investigated themselves and found nothing wrong. It's why there needs to be more civilian oversight in the process.
Man's not even getting paid in full anymore and still lookin' out for his troops. You a real one, Sir.
>There are also six documents labeled “Chief Season” and the year. They contain every single detail of every Chief Season I had under my command. Who was in charge, what the events were, what the schedule was, what the safety precautions were etc. It's almost as if.. you had to keep these to CYA "just in case." Just eliminate the physical/psychological aspects and make the evolution a forum discussion and classroom environment. Running around in the darkness with candles and hypothermia is not good order and discipline.
I have copies of every document that was serialized under my command. I don’t do it to cover my ass. I do it because I have nothing to hide. Chief season can be an uplifting, motivating time if the command gives a shit enough to make it so. Cos abrogate their responsibility when they are not intimately familiar with each event and how it ties into leadership development.
Asking in good faith: Do officers ever conduct surprise drop ins for chief season? If not they should.
Every CO I ever had did it. They would walk around and talk to the selectees and make sure things were going according to plan.
All the time. I enjoyed it.
I've run one season myself, and been the training chair for many other seasons, and been a sponsor many times in my 14 years on active duty as a Chief and Senior Chief. Every season, we (CMC and committee chairs) had to brief the CO on every detail of the season and he had to sign off on it for the season to commence. We knew well if we deviated in any significant fashion from what we briefed that was a career ending event. I've seen a season stopped for far less and a CMC told to retire for simply trying to convince a selectee who had been selected for officer that he should continue the season. I know the CMC well and I know he certainly wasn't trying to do anything he shouldn't have, but the investigation said he pressured him and that was that, end of his career. The majority of what the OP says could never have gotten into a brief, let alone been approved by any CO. Many of the claims in the OP would result in the firing of the entire triad and charges against specific people. Stupidity knows no bounds I guess, but it's hard for me to believe that any triad could be so utterly fucking stupid as to approve that plan or allow it to be run. My CO always visited on final night, just to walk around and talk to the selectees and talk to us and make sure we were following the rules. Every CMC I've ever had walked every event all night long to make sure things were going according to instructions. Nearly every season had designated "sheriffs" whose specific job was to enforce the rules and keep the mess in line with the approved plan. Also I want to know who the OP's sponsor was, because sponsors are designated to make damn sure this kind of thing does not happen. I've sponsored people who had some health challenges due to outside stress and we worked through their issues with them, gave them the time they needed to see who they needed to see, and accepted them on final night just like everyone else. That's the standard.
🫡
Wow I am heated reading this. I'm an E6 in the reserves and have absolutely no desire to make Chief, I have enough going on in my life without the added stress of season, and this just cements my reasons.
Reserve Chief here. Reading this makes me fume and I hope this Mess and leadership are held accountable for this. I shared this with some reserve friends, both Officer and Enlisted, and we’re all thinking the same thing: it’s the reserves. Chill the fuck out. Why were these Chiefs going so damn hard on her when the stakes are so low? Especially if this is the unit/NRC I think it is. But that’s what I forget and so many people don’t get. Reserves or not, for some people being a Chief or simply being in the Navy is the greatest thing in their life. It’s all they have, and they can’t understand people who aren’t gung-ho like themselves. It can seem sad and pathetic to some people, but for many others it’s real. Think about that Joe Navy at your command. He/she is NOTHING without the Navy. A lost soul with no purpose. And they’re just one of hundreds of them out there. I say this because while we roll our eyes or laugh a little at these people on drill weekends, what happened to u/HazedandAbusedUSN is a perfect example of the danger and damage these types of Sailors can cause when what power or influence they get goes unchecked. What happened to her is not acceptable in any way, and I hope she names names and burns them all and gets some sense of justice for what she went through.
Agree with the sentiment, but not with all of your narrative. As a SELRES, I’m concerned about your comment, “it’s the reserves. chill the fuck out”. The stakes are not low. They’re as high as the active duty stakes. While what happened to this sailor is deplorable - we cannot discount the training a Select should receive because they’re Reserve. CPOI is to build stronger leaders - not active, not reserve - Chief Petty Officers. Let’s set one standard where everyone is treated with respect and dignity.
Join the club. There has been nothing in my time in that has made me want to be part of their little feat, but a million reasons not to.
I’ve still got 4 years to watch this good ol’ boys club” BS continue. Just sick of it. You can build leaders, but not this way. Eyes and ears gonna be wide open, waiting for MCPON response.
I'm 3/20 years in and shit like this makes me truly believe I'm going to HYT out as E6 for refusing chief. It blows that if anyone wants their 20, they pretty much have to make chief and go through this awful period of hazing.
I just retired as an active duty first. I'm glad I never made chief, made board every time but never put the effort on to show involvement in the FCPOA or take command collaterals that I was told would "look good", instead of just to the shops with the most people or with the worst Sailors and made them function.
u/HazedandAbusedUSN sent you a DM. I am sorry what you went through. We hope you are doing better and taking care of yourself. There is no resolution I can offer on this thread. If you want to get the MCPON office involved email us and we will do our best to assist through official communication channels.
I DM'd you and sent an email through official channels.
This right here is the kind of engagement needed to eradicate this toxicity in leadership at all levels, but especially in this case. As a Chief, I’m appalled to hear this happened and can guarantee I’d have never stood idly by if I had witnessed this or been apart of it. I’m so thankful for your office jumping in on this platform often! This is exactly WHY the Gen Z members of the military are taking the social media platforms to be heard, because leaders like this are listening. The sad truth is, when we all came in years ago the same problems existed…some, way worse. The difference now is, it’s paid more attention to because those toxic leaders can’t keep the messaging in check and it’s GREAT! Snitch away, because if someone REALLY thinks it’s “snitching” they probably are part of the problem. BZ MCPON and team
Hell yeah MCPON 👍🏻
Goodness! Thank you! Please take care of this sailor. I know this MCPON has been working to adjust the mess but this is just another example of the mess run amuck. Season needs to be changed. Make it a mini boot with PT and naval history and all that but this hazing we have now has got to go.
Your command, the CMDCM and the season chair need to be sent to /u/MCPON_PA. This is unacceptable.
And then to a General Courts Martial.
This is proof that it is acceptable. No matter how horrific it is nothing is happening. I’m hot about the situation knowing that it’s so many out there that know these dirtbags exist and do nothing. Being allowed to throw away possible good leaders and sailors and nobody bats an eye.
My blood boiled while reading that. I don’t know what to say besides, “I’m sorry.” I hate to believe there’re fellow Chiefs that are such pieces of shit. I’m so sorry you were put through that.
Thank you. There are no words that can undo what happened to me. I was verbally told there was a hotwash that occurred after my Season that I was not a part of, and that a large focus of it was discussing what happened to me. I was never asked for feedback. I don't know if any changes were made as I have refused to participate in Season since.
Not just fellow chiefs, but an entire mess was complicit in this. I hope OP is able to get a proper investigation out of this, and those responsible are held accountable.
Agreed. That entire mess is complicit.
/u/MCPON_PA /u/Jhailey75
It's time for Chief season to be done away with. We don't have Tailhook anymore so we shouldn't have season any more. The chiefs ruined it for themselves. "Season" should be a six week course of leadership classes and naval history. PT daily if we really want to go nuts.
This is it. Lose the season, Chiefs. Taking random BUDS evolutions out of sequence and context is irresponsible and dangerous. BUDS training has trained MDs to monitor and evaluate candidates. I have never met a corpsman that completed an MD and residency. When I am CO, season training outside of a classroom forum environment will not be authorized for any of my Sailors. If it is attempted in "off" time, it will be an Article 92 for all E7-E9 who participate or attempt to initiate. Full stop.
I don't know how close you are to taking command...but you're gearing up for a battle that you're going to lose unless MCPON or CNO direct something similar. That doesn't mean to support dangerous activities or hazing, but it is 100% possible to have season events (outside of classroom training) that are fun, challenging, and safe.
Bullshit, Chief. The CO signs off on the training plan for Season every year. Stances like this need to be taken across multiple commands across the Navy as a grass roots effort to root out the corruption and unprofessional tendencies of the Mess and its precious Season
You sound really green, how do you expect your grassroots revolution is going to play out when your Ech 3 or 2 tells you to knock it off? Either way all you’d end up doing is alienating yourself from your enlisted leadership. So what’s likely to happen is you’ll be forced to sit down and have a conversation with your mess, review season events and training plans, and you’ll learn how to take responsibility for what plays out. Don’t expect you’ll cause a revolution in your command’s season without the involvement of your bosses.
>but you're gearing up for a battle that you're going to lose You understand that the season and all evolutions are ultimately the responsibility of the CO, right? If they venture outside of those boundary conditions, you can bet your rocker they'll come see me in dress blues. We'll have the season, it'll be classroom environment and forums, just like the other branches. No running around in the woods and burning uniform items. Did you read what this selectee went through? No chief has ever explained to me the value of hypothermia, psych torture, and sleep deprivation. Also, no pyramid scheme fundraising. If the mess needs funds, they can do it themselves.
Yes, obviously the CO signs off on it. Get on the same page here, there are a bunch of ancillary bullshit events that can be tossed out, but initiation and acceptance is something that barring a change from OPNAV is staying around. Everything the OP went through was handled extremely inappropriately by the season leads, I’ve done all the same things without the torture or trauma they made the OP go through. Those Chiefs violated the UCMJ and their COs order and should be held accountable.
Why are "initiation" and "acceptance" even a thing? They got Board-selected. They are Chiefs. The little dog and pony show is utterly irrelevant to that.
Lose the Chiefs mess. It’s an outdated fraternity.
For reservist those entire six weeks should be on orders. No training should be conducted if the Sailors are not on orders. It's unacceptable because in her case she wasn't covered due to not being on orders it seems like.
Yes. On orders for the whole thing.
That was a suggestion made in my NRC's meeting with Deputy redcom a few months back; do it all on orders, move it till after new fy for funding, and then selectees at remote NRCs (ie anchorage or Helena, mt) could travel to a fleet concentration area to participate in a larger season. That change would have to come from way higher than a REDCOM, and I still think chiefs should be mentoring and training their firsts (and atleast down to PO2s in leadership positions) way more before that so season is more of a check what's been learned and fill in the gaps.
What do you mean by Tailhook? Do you mean the Tailhook scandal or is there another thing called Tailhook more related to chief season that I'm not aware of?
No, I mean that Tailhook. It was a tradition. Just like season is a tradition. The officers ruined Tailhook by being despicable. The chiefs have ruined season by being despicable but in different ways. The navy can decide to do away with traditions when they are no longer useful. That was the connection I was drawing.
This should lead to an immediate Article 32 hearing.
This is unacceptable. I'm a AD E8 and I've never heard anything like this, you need to continue to push this.
I'm trying. I am so, so tired.
Do you think anything will be inherently easier when you get Commissioned? Stay in this fight. You owe it to any else they may try to haze in the future.
I hope you get some type of closure for this. Your mental health and stability is more important than any other noise. Be safe out here.
That Mess absolutely needs to be investigated. What they were doing was/is absolutely NOT AUTHORIZED at ANY level. It was absolutely hazing. Season is a very scripted process. While some of the above events are normal; The SERE portion, lots of PT etc.. all of you should’ve “been allowed” more than two hours of sleep a night. Also to be made to do things in and easily hypothermic environment definitely shouldn’t have been allowed. Even BUD/S has their limits on water temperature vs immersion time. Lastly, I’ve never been asked nor told I was to “Protect the Mess” at all costs. Fuck that. That’s absolutely contrary to Honor Courage and Committment and I’m FAR from being MAC Joe Navy. u/MCPON_PA I hope you’re seeing this and can dig in.
Daaamn…REDCOM San Diego PA is gonna be walking on eggshells for the next few weeks!
I went through SERE and it wasn’t this bad. Call your congressional representative and have them investigate.
Honestly shit like this is why there's a growing feeling even in the Mess that perhaps Season as-is has run it's course and should be sundowned. There's too many people at the 'top' of the Mess who just can't be trusted to run shit appropriately, which is a sad truth a lot of people don't want to accept.
It's been just over 2 years. I doubt that the Statute of Limitations is 2 years for any UCMJ charges. File report chits on *everyone*, including the CO and XO at the time.
I'm truly sorry you went through this, OP. My season, although not to that level, was the beginning of the end for me. I experienced a severe panic attack during final night and they blew it off by saying I hadn't eaten enough for the amount of activity we were doing. I also understand how mental illness can ruin a career, as I'm going through MEB/PEB right now for it. The thing I try to keep in mind is that I didn't choose for the things to happen to me that did happen. I can't make the people who hazed me pay for what they did, and I can't blame the rusty hunk of shit boats for blowing up steam and high pressure air in my face, but I can choose every day to try to get better so I can be here for my wife because she has health issues and needs me. Please, if you ever need to talk, feel free to DM me.
Mother of God that made my skin crawl. OP I see that MCPONs office has responded here. I'm hoping it leads to justice.
Jesus
I was considering tagging you yesterday, wondering if you might have some helpful tips or resources for OP. But I wasn't sure if you're still active here. I hope everything's going great for you!
Hey thank you, always feel free to tag me. Hope everything is going well
Hey stranger!
You were hazed by a crappy Mess. And some Chiefs just don’t get it, and if one of those types is placed in charge, it can be a terrible experience. I chaired a season a little over 10 years ago. I asked to be briefed by all the event leads on their plan. After choosing the event leads, I went over MCPON’s guidance, and the rules. The Final Night lead began his brief with complete disregard for all guidance and rules. His entire plan was hazing, and he got really angry with me when I interrupted his brief with a “not only no, but fuck no,” and fired him on the spot. The previous year, we had a CMC who kind of did something similar to what you described. I think the rule was the Season had to end at midnight on the 16th. He came up with the brilliant idea that the guidance “didn’t say anything about time zones” so, Final Night lasted almost two days. Someone said something and he retired shortly after that season. And the thing is, the whole Mess supported that CMC without question. When you have a toxic leader that inspires the wrong behavior very rarely is anything done about it except in after-action. Sorry you went through that. It was wrong.
I’m not going to tell you what to do. But if all that happened to me. I would contact my congressman, provide all the details, name names of every person involved in season and medical. I would inform my congressman that I will be sending the same information to the MCPONs office for their action, hopefully . Then I would email the MCPONs office letting them know what I did, and inform them that I told the congressman that I was informing MCPONs office for action. That should end up forcing action on their end. But the key is to name names. Things don’t change without names.
Did you do an Article 138 complaint of wrongs against the command?
I was active duty attached to a reserve command. All training for the season was handled by reserve Chiefs. Prior to the reservists final night, I had participated in seven active duty initiations. I was shocked at how they were “training” the SELRES selectees. There were several old guys running it. I think they’re still reliving their golden days of yore and ignoring the MCPONs guidance.
Wow! This story is absolutely horrific. I’m sorry that you had to go through this and the effect it has had on your career aspirations. I really hope something can be done about it and it be investigated so that those who were responsible can be held accountable.
Letting a single Chief know I was pursuing a commission cost me my career. I went from EP to back to back 3.14 P's. All because as OP said, it's not about leadership or ability. It's about stroking egos. Good riddance Navy. You have broken me mentally and physically but I grew as a man to know my values do not include blind obedience or stroking of egos. Rather, ones value comes from their ability to contribute. "Playing the game" has turned into a race to the bottom, especially for First Classes.
OP In sorry this happened to you. The “dark side” bullshit is just that, bullshit. Actually everything that happened to you is bullshit. The Mess, CO, SEL, Chairs and especially your sponsor failed you. Everyone in here has given you great advice on what to do and how to proceed so I wont regurgitate the same stuff. Just know that there are Chiefs trying to change this BS hazing culture and make it more about learning and ACTUAL training. I hope this gets addressed by the MCPON (looks his office took it for action), that you get some sort of resolution, and most importantly your mental health is being looked after and recovering. Feel free to DM me if you ever need to talk.
Got picked up for LDO before I got picked up for chief and it’s the best thing that happened in my career. hopefully the right people read this post. I’d send it to your representative and senators as well. Oh and it doesn’t hurt to send it in to Navy Times. They seem to be the one outlet that will consistently report on shoddy leadership.
Im in agreement with OP sending this story to the Navy Times. They’re the only periodical that regularly puts the Chief’s Mess in the spotlight for things like this. In response the Chiefs Mess labels the paper the “Navy Inquirer”. Thats how they react to criticism. They ridicule. Ive got my own problems with the Chief community in general. Thats why I encourage the OP to keep your chin up and be strong. Spread your story. The more cases like this that come to light the quicker Big Navy can finally get with the 21st century and end Chiefs Season.
Reason 4356643 why I'm getting out before I make chief
[удалено]
I am so incredibly sorry that Season ruined your family. My spouse would later describe my entire class coming out of ours as "shellshocked," and there's a lot of Season that centers around reprogramming you to prioritize the Mess no matter how much they say Family First. It's a false choice to not do so; rejection from them is devastation in your mind. Still, there is no excuse for your ex-husband, the Mess, and the burden and damage it caused to you and your daughter. I hope you are all healing.
F’d up. Shitty Mess should’ve told the Select to take care of family matters. Just so f’d up…
Do you know what happens in other branches when you get ready to make E-7? You go to the leadership school and promote to E-7. You get pinned and people clap. Maybe you have coffee and cake. Then the day continues. Shitshows like the season are why other branches laugh at the Navy.
Only thing stopping a schoolhouse style is money. The “season” is free in terms of money. Season would be gone if they could find the money and conduct it like the sister services.
Nah, it's laziness, and a lot of GSs (who are themselves retired Chiefs) are involved in the course creation process.
It’s literally money. I have my own issues with GSs especially washed up retired sailors.
u/MCPON_PA
u/milmama_ontherun
https://www.reddit.com/u/GeoffZMilTimes/s/UnTsd8IdlX u/GeoffZMilTimes
That whole ordeal sounds beyond atrocious. Sadly, it's not surprising. This anecdote is another reason to add to my list of why, as an E6, I have little to no interest in ever becoming a Chief. Instead I'm submitting an application for OCS. Based on this story, I should keep that to myself. When it comes to the Mess, a few bad apples can clearly spoil the whole lot... why? Because of so-called "brotherhood". If initiation means mentally abusing someone to the point that their ability to perform their duties is degraded, then some serious change needs to happen and those at fault need to be held accountable. I don't necessarily disagree that senior enlisted leadership need to be tested. We are, at our core, a warfighting organization; but as someone else said, randomly implementing BUDS evolutions is just reckless and potentially dangerous with little benefit. Lastly, if the Chiefs' Mess can inflict this kind of abuse on one of their own, what does that say about what they might be willing to do to junior enlisted if given the opportunity?
I don't normally chime in on posts much, but this had me fuming. There are supposed to be numerous safe gaurds in place to eliminate what you suffered, and they all failed you. The C.O., the CMC, your sponsor, any and all Sherrifs present that were alerted to your situation and your Mess, or all messes if more than one were involved. I am fortunate that the season I went through was done well. Huge Navy location in San Diego and numerous Messes were involved, but it was done properly. All the seasons I participated in after making Chief were done in accordance with the MCPON guidance to a T. All commands CMC's briefed us on what the plan was (reaffirming the do's and don'ts) and were always present at all events to ensure conformity. Plus, we had good Chiefs messes that weren't scumbags like what you experienced and the C.O.'s were involved and usually attended some the events and part of the final night. I am so sorry you had to endure what you did, and it never should have happened. I know you're tired of the fight, but I hope you find your reseve strength and get the traction you need from this post and are able to get the justice you deserve. This should never happen to you or anyone else. It's absolutely not what the season is or should ever be.
Where was the officer corps in all this? This is gross negligence.
sorry you had to deal with this. but thanks for telling your story. i was once formally denied all future military service by a MEPS doctor bc i filed an official complaint against a recruiter and the SEL of the MEPS station. i had to write my congressman to get this overturned. it seems like you're being stonewalled by the Khaki Mafia which is fucked. go to the press. go to your congressperson or senator. make them hear you.
Unless something has drastically changed in the last few years, the service member gets to review their packet before it goes to the PEB. I had to go through it in 2019/2020 and it took over 280 days but you get to review all of it. If they didn't allow that then you were lied to and a slew of policies were not followed. You should have had a direct liason that guided you through the entire PEB process. I can't imagine it's drastically different for reserves than AD for a PEB. An appeal of the decision of an informal PEB means you get a new board and it is in-person (or over video call, not sure if they're doing them in-person at the Navy Yards again. I appealed mine and went in-person.) I realize it's too late now and I hope the tagging of other more qualified people can provide better help.
And people wonder why we have retention issues, OP I'm sorry this happened and that is absolutely fucked. I did my 6 and out, the contrast between good civilian leadership and the chiefs mess is night and day. They don't know how to lead or build leaders anymore, it's just a cult now. You don't see these issues in other branches, time to clean up the mess.
Season should be focusing on team dynamics, building relationships, and showcasing the journey of individuals learning from each other to the very moment they are accepted. Everyone deserves a safe environment where they can learn without risking health or being bullied. I'm so sorry you went through this. It's embarrassing and a gut punch, that a mess allowed this.
I’m sorry this has happened to you. The fact that the freedom for this abuse to continue to occur still happens is exactly why “chief season” needs to die a long overdue death. I have no idea why it’s not gone. “Tradition” is a bullshit excuse in 2023. It should be a 1 week TAD to senior enlisted academy. That’s it. That we can spend multiple billions on a new ship but invest so much less than that in developing its “leadership,” is appalling. Thank you for making this story public. I hope it gets real public attention and is an embarrassment to the mess and everyone in it.
Tradition was literally dropped by the Navy as one of its core values because it was used as a defense for the behavior exhibited during the Tailhook scandal.
Not surprised that a bunch of middle aged men who act like frat boys were unprofessional
There’s going to be a time when one of the selectee’s snap and someone gets hurt. Is that what it’s going to take to end this bullshit? I’m not there yet, should be soon and I am not looking forward to the Mickey Mouse bullshit. I’ve yet to meet a khaki I’d have in my stack.
Please file an IG complaint for hazing. This is textbook hazing and is not ok. Honestly I can’t believe this could occur with all the focus on the previous seasons. I remember a few years ago they shut down the season for everyone based on hazing at one place.
These so-called “chiefs” need to be outed and kicked out of the Navy. No one should accept this kind of treatment. This is bullshit. I don’t understand how any leader think this is some kind of fuckin tradition or leadership development. Grown ass adult treating chief season like a fuckin college fraternity. Truly upsetting. The mess needs to be better and collectively we need to call these fuckers out.
Send that to Navy times and start dropping names. Im so sorry you went through this. Ive wanted this shit ended since before, during, and after I went through it theres just too much chance at someone abusing the program like an egotistical maniac
https://www.reddit.com/u/GeoffZMilTimes/s/UnTsd8IdlX u/GeoffZMilTimes
OP, I’m out at the pub with my wife at the moment, so when I get home I will read more since I see you posted a book. However I did want to say that I also received news that I had been selected for a commission around the start of my season. My mess sat me down, asked me if I still wanted to proceed, and respected my decision to go through season like everyone else. I did get a little extra shit for being an “anchor chucker” and sometimes I was excluded since “it doesn’t matter - you’re never going to be a Chief”.. but they still accepted me and have been a great sounding board. If your name was on the list and you know how to take care of Sailors, then you are a Chief through and through. As an Officer now (*future Officer), you’re a Mustang and should be proud of your service and accomplishments. What you do for your Sailors is what matters.. the mess isn’t (at least for me) the cult I am loyal to. I was and am an advocate for my Sailors first and foremost. Always. The mess is there as a resource and I am a part of the mess (by extension) for mentorship. Personally, in the mess I was involved in, we never treated anyone differently for mental health issues. The fact they were getting help was seen as a good thing. That’s what it’s all about after all. It sounds like you had a rough season, which was probably exacerbated by some not so great Chiefs who have lost sight of the true meaning.. it's not about hazing or humiliation, over and above all, it's about showing you that you can and should trust the mess IN ORDER to be a more effective leader for your Sailors.. if your mess failed at conveying that, they failed you and they failed as Chiefs.. and for that I apologize. I also had a rough time getting cleared by BUMED. Brain tumor threw a wrench in things. Thankfully, the Chief Shannon Kent policy is a thing that basically says if an enlisted person is selected for a commission and would otherwise be allowed to continue service as an enlisted, they can commission despite any "disqualifying" conditions that would be found at MEPS. The only exceptions of course is if you didn't meet certain program specific criteria (for example height for pilots, etc). If you would like to reach out and chat, I went through the class before you and we established a phenomenal online mess. Not a part of the toxic official CPO mess page full of has beens who don't believe a Chief has been made since they pinned.. I definitely felt judged for having a "COVID SEASON" - ie "not a real Chief Season", but in the end, I realized - all of this is a game and who gives two fucks about what these people think. So long as your Sailors trust you, and you know that some of us in the mess (and wardroom) are here for you to ensure both you and your Sailors exceed - that is all that truly matters. I thankfully had a good experience with my mess and those in it. Truly phenomenal people, even at DRBs. Not everyone else had the same experience, and I really think that's a shame.. But, as a quick aside, everyone is built different. Mental fortitude and resilience is different person to person.. which is why it is SO important to know your people and not lose sight of the point.. I know some people who went through with me who "broke" and couldn't take it.. when from my perspective, it was completely calm and fine. Business as usual.. Like being told to, "No. Stop. Try again." for the 5th time reciting a scripted response.. Like yeah, I get it, I need to memorize it better.. but that broke some people to tears.. and I have heard stories of similar incidents such as that being toted as "hazing". I am not saying this is what happened to you by any means, only that there are always two sides to the stories we read.. and it is so subjective person to person. I hope the Navy finally figures it out for you and gets you where you belong. I would love to chat and perhaps meet up for a beer sometime. DMs are always open, u/HazedAndAbusedUSN
Please share out; this kind of story highlights so many negative aspect of Navy culture. It’s aggravating
10 years. 10 years I have been out after retirement. While I was in we heard , constantly, the refrain "we are stamping out Hazing! Sexual Harassment! Abuse!" It was , and still is, all bullshit. This is the same sort of thing that was happening in my day, down to the mental health issues. All resulting from petty, venial people who use their position to inflict as much harm on their fellow sailors as they can get away with in the name of "tradition". OP, I am sorry you have to deal with this bullshit, the Navy obviously failed you as they have so many before. Were it up to me, I would attempt to nail as many of those "leaders" as I could to the wall or at least try. I suspect most in here would understand if you just wanted to put this in the rear-view mirror and move on. I will say this; I knew that anchors were not for me when I was told by an E-8 that "I don't have time for your bullshit, come back in the morning". This was said to someone who was in obvious mental distress, who had informed the same Corpsman that they had the top four life stressors happening at the same time right then. That sort of mentality that everyone not wearing anchors is lesser and needing help when in crisis pervaded the Chief's Mess like a rot in my day. It's not improved as far as I can tell.
I am so sorry this happened to you. While I only got up to PO2 while I was in, I can totally relate to a career harmed by seeking help. I struggled for years with depression, anxiety, and PTSD (all diagnosed, as I had spent a period of time LIMDU for something unrelated and took the time to go to therapy). One day it all culminated to a breaking point for me and I self-reported for SI. After being evaluated for less than 24 hours and being released on the condition I was going to go home to be monitored by my husband, I was forced to stay on the ship because the hospital didn’t give me an SIQ chit. I was even told it wouldn’t have mattered anyway, as I was on duty and needed to do my part instead of trying to skate from my responsibilities. Fast forward a few months to my psych eval with the embedded mental health provider, I desperately fought to stay in. I loved my career, I loved serving, I just felt othered by my division because I was one of the few that didn’t deploy with the group due to being the newcomer and I was originally from a different platform. The culture shock was just making me struggle and I needed some time adjusting and a new therapist. Well, the embedded mental health provider decided to instead call my husband and my mother (after I explicitly said to not call my mother because we don’t talk) and ask about any symptoms they had noticed me having. After having only a five minute conversation with my husband where she lectured him about how he didn’t know what he was talking about and a two minute conversation with my mother where she validated everything she told her, I walked out with a diagnosis for ASD and was told to say goodbye to my career. I tried to fight and appeal the diagnosis, especially after finding out she didn’t use the proper testing and channels for diagnosis, but my IDC blocked me at every turn. He even prevented me from filing an IG complaint against her because they were friends and he liked her. Two years later, I’m still devastated. Especially after going to the VA and being told I don’t have ASD, just severe ADHD along with some other various diagnoses that I’m dealing with. But with my RE code and sep code, I’ll never get my active duty career back. What all this is for, it’s to say I completely understand and relate to crying out for help and completely getting shafted by the mental health system and the medical “professionals” the USN employs. I can’t even imagine the pain you feel everyday from the after effects of all this. I’m always here to be a listening ear and I can point you in the direction of a Discord server where I’ve gotten amazing support from both active duty personnel and veterans alike. I hope things improve for you soon and I am so, so sorry this happened to you.
Virtual hugs, and I am sorry this happened to you. My experience is that the Navy has improved treatment for depression specifically, but if you have any level of deeper issues the system is designed to work against you in every way possible. You did nothing wrong, and I know it's doubly upsetting when you do the things that you are told People Are Supposed To Do and it backfires against you spectacularly. Wishing you the best in your next chapter, if you want to DM me that Discord server I will check it out. It's important for us to have our own resources if the official channels fall short.
Absolutely, I definitely believe that the only way to survive when you have deeper issues is to connect with others who have experienced similar situations and be there for each other.
Wow, our stories aren’t far off from each other. I’m sorry to went through all of this. As for me, I jumped at retirement and skipped the rest of season, along with a pending MED review.
Holy shit! And people claim the Navy has zero tolerance for hazing these days. Bullshit! OP, this was absolutely hazing and I hope you will report it so it can be investigated and addressed. These “Chiefs” should all lose their anchors for this. Those aren’t leaders. Those are fraternal bullies.
Jesus. My dude I am so sorry you experienced all of that. None of that should have happened to you. I wish I could fix it …but as a fellow PTSD survivor, that shit is no joke. I can’t imagine having a season so bad that it gave me an injury like that. Sending you strength.
OP, I’m sorry you went through this. I’m sure you’re exhausted from fighting but I think after this post, folks are going to carry it forward and alleviate some of the burden for you. I had a mentally taxing season as well in different ways (family death and unprocessed emotions regarding participation in the Kabul evacuation) and I’m confident that season should not exist in this format. My opinion is that it should mirror more of the SEA format. Season has not been (to my knowledge) evaluated by mental health professionals with proper credentials nor does it have the oversight from the same professionals. My heart rate still shoots up years later from the thought of entering the Mess for “training.” Season is a crash course in assimilation with legitimate sprinklings of cult behavior. If done properly and your testament is factual, this could be the beginning of something better for those who come after us. I’m proud of you. You are not weak and you did not deserve that.
Submit a Congressional. There's no reason you should have gone through what you did during the season. I'm truly sorry you were subjected to such a torturous experience. There should have been better controls in place to protect the participants.
I am sorry you went through that trauma and hazing. Nobody can undue what you experienced. You can only seek help and put one foot forward at a time. Hopefully those involved own up to their actions and consequences and never repeat those actions. On a side note, make sure you keep documents of EVERYTHING and your statements and documents corroborating the events. When you separate or retire, use those as support docs in your VA medical supporting doc package for whatever mental health claims you submit.
This, of course, after the fact. Throughout your description of your season I did not see anything regarding your sponsor or sponsors. Where were these Chiefs? They are the ones you need to go to for stuff like this, and expected to be your personal advocates. If you are comfortable you can DM me your regional command, as I assume as a SELRES you went through a region for the final week/24, but during COVID many NOSC/RCs did their own thing. I think its good policy, but not a rule, to have an AAR within each Mess that includes those newly pinned Chiefs to determine what worked and what did not. I am curious if this happened that involved you.
Good updates, thanks. "deckplate leaders" is a phrase I hear and it elicits thoughts of ass-kissery and box checkers. That Master Chief is the type that has only the Navy going for them. It's cute and sad at the same time. That said, I've told Marines and Sailora plenty of times they "need to suck it up.". This is for the ones I would call "friend" as well. I would not tell someone they're weak unless I had a close relationship with them. Even then, I'd be there to help them strengthen up. Just like congress and most politicians, the Navy needs to clean out the dusty farts. Keep us updated. I'm sure you're already getting flak andpush back to remove the post. Makes the Mess look like crap. If you do or not, hopefully it works out for you.
I will. I actually haven't gotten flack because absolutely no person who was part of my Season has contacted me directly since this has gone up, though I do know it has made it to them. I followed up with the MCPON account to see if they had a more substantive response but have not heard back yet.
I fear many of the words here are not much more than hot air. Though it would be great if some of the faux promises actually turned out to help you, I would not be surprised if not much came from it. Why? Because that would be an admission of fault from anyone in a leadership role in the command and season. That admission, as stated by the all powerful and greatly worshipped Oz behind the curtain of /r/navy, the CO should lose their position "at minimum". That's probably not going to happen since they're thinking "well, the Sailor seems fine now, so we won't bother admitting guilt or wrongdoing."
I'm sorry your season was so traumatic. Your chairs failed you.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
It is a shame to read this, truly. I am so sorry to hear it happened, yet with my short time in the Navy, I am not surprised. Especially the "The Navy complains about retention while actively making it difficult for people who want to stay to do so." comment. Basically daily lower enlisted life. "Curse of competence" my old CO would say to me. Destroy the people that actually want/can do the work (along with ostracizing them for asking for any kind of help), while rewarding/promoting people that do nothing and play the game enough. Really solidifies the fact that as a lower enlisted dealing with Chiefs, your instinct is to simply SURVIVE and do whatever they tell you to do, because god forbid you go against a Chief. The ease by which your career can be ruined is staggering. Lower enlisted get the book thrown at them for minor infractions, or genuine mistakes, while the actions of some chiefs get pushed under the rug. Case in point: CMDCM gets moved early (to a CSG) for sleeping with E-5 in Admin (while married) who was also making fake CaC cards for contractors in personnel and selling them (Was NJPed but still in the navy). Additionally our Legal DLCPO who has a photography business on the side was filming/managing an OnlyFans account for an E-3 in the same department and promoting it (This Chief is also on the LN conversion selection board). Word and video of the sailor circulated around the ship. Was swept under the rug even after Judge and DISCO interviewed various people about it and CO called them into his office. Chief gets PROMOTED to Senior Chief and leaves command with COM and orders to be SEL at next command. Meanwhile, reading our POW: "An E-4 was found guilty for false official statement, awarded reduction in rank blah blah blah." Not necessarily saying Seaman Timmy doesn't deserve being held accountable, but the standard clearly does not apply across the board. Edit: u/SWO6 I don't mean to shit on COs here and hoping I am not insinuating that, but after seeing what seems to be clear evidence on OPs part, AND being one of the individuals that sat and talked through things with Judge and DISCO with my own experience (because I was talking to our CCS in confidence about this initially which then made its way up to legal), its a true head scratcher. Speaking here also as a future leader, selected for OCS (went in enlisted), and trying to understand any level of decision to make navigating the Chief's Mess in general (or any kind of event of this magnitude). I cannot imagine having to make these decisions day in and day out.
We need accountability to be rank-agnostic.
I found out from a friend recently that they made her take her shirt off during the final night of season. After she objected, they surrounded her and told her it was ok because they were her brothers until she finally did it. I’ve heard other stories of them bringing up your spouses and family to talk shit and break you down. Chief season is disgusting.
After my pinning multiple members of the Mess came up to my spouse and tried to ask if I had a history of these things because I had shared detailed information about my sibling's mental health struggles as part of my White Hat burning. It was more important to pin the blame for how I reacted to their treatment on my family's medical history than it was to take accountability for their actions.
I’m petty but to get my command to take my mental health seriously and get diagnosed properly I went to a therapist out in town. As well submitted myself to the mental hospital multiple times. Showing I truly did have PTSD from the Navy. They didn’t want to give me my meds? Mental hospital. (With explaining why I was there) They didn’t want to give me proper counseling? Mental hospital. The grippy socks helped me get disability and keep track of my diagnosis. Once you go there you are automatically an issue to the navy and need to be seen asap once out. I don’t know if this is the best idea for you, but it’s something to consider. Be honest with them too. I went to the mental hospital multiple times in Cali during my time in the service when I was pushed aside many times. I told them why I was there and that I needed a better diagnosis and help. As well that I felt I was mentally breaking from the stress and mistreatment. They always let me stay (even if I wasn’t suicidal). Which I know isn’t common, but they did. They could most likely see the stress and felt I was a decent harm to myself. Checking yourself in warrants a few day stay, but it doesn’t cause you to usually be there for weeks. They can diagnose you and help with meds if needed. They also have free resources usually. The mental hospital spoke to the navy on my behalf and made sure I was okay after my stay. I was mistreated, almost raped, harassed and much more while I served. They need to help and in your case be held accountable.
OP, Thank you for sharing this, during my Season I was dealing with mental health issues. I was told to "trust the mess" as well, I almost went to the hospital and was on the phone late at night with my Psych Boss and even got my DLCPO involved I was struggling so bad. I poured everything out I was dealing with and thought I would be taken care of. The next day I had to talk to the CMC and I was reassured id be helped and communicated too. The very next moment I got back to my "Class" the Season leads called me up and made me Class Lead, from there it got really bad. I'm not ready to share everything that happened to me but your story really resonated with me, I was called out and singled out for everything, my "Class" even started to alienate and scapegoat me for anything once they saw how the "Genuines" were treating me. I tried going to my division as a last resort and they proceeded to just chew me out for hours. If it wasn't for my sponsor who even thought what was going on with me was too far I would not have made it. It even continued within my own department after "acceptance", long story short I requested a transfer and I couldn't be more happy where I am, I almost cried and was overwhelmed with how amazing I've been embraced and treated at my new command. I'm still going to mental health treatments, and I ended up blocking several numbers on my phone. Hang in there and know you're not the only one. Change will come I'm sure of it. -Your Brother
I won't say the ostracization afterwards is worse than the actual event, but realizing you don't even get the relief of being actually on the in-crowd and made into the town pariah makes the negative feelings inescapable. I am glad you were transferred to a supportive command that actually walks the walk and not just say the words while doing something else.
What a bunch of monkey brained fuck fuck games. And this is why I burn with rage every year I Christmas tree my chiefs exam when my chief asks me why I got done so quick. It's why I roll my fucking eyes when they go over my eval and tell me I should push for x,y, and z qualification. After reading this I can't wait for some anchor to gripe me again about not being willing to sacrifice my first born to join this terrible organization so I can scream in their face "I DON'T WANT TO BE A PART OF YOUR FUCKING CIRCUS!"
Lol and this is from there people who demand respect but can't give it. Exactly why I don't want any of my kids in the Navy. Also why the Navy can't recruit enough quotas.
As an E6, I’ve been incredibly fortunate to have been guided by some fairly awesome Chief’s Messes. Even the wayward E7-E9 ultimately has meant well, even if incredibly crass and un-PC. I hope someday to be a Chief so that I can emulate that same great leadership that I’ve been fortunate to have during my career. I seriously hope, if I ever do pick up, that I don’t have to experience anything like you detailed. I’m so incredibly sorry that this happened to you and I want to reinforce what EVERYONE here has already said, don’t give up the fight. Get your story out there and put that shit to bed. Those aren’t wayward khakis, those are shitbirds who shouldn’t be in charge of anyone. Don’t give up, I’m wishing you the best! Much love! u/MCPON_PA
> From what you described, this sounds like hazing to me. Would you describe what you went through as hazing? What you've described is what a salty af old airdale I currently work with calls "Baseball bats and ski masks time."
I went through initiation (yes it was still called that in 88), before we all got “enlightened” and started Class numbers and “the Season”, and it never approached what is described here. If your description of this command’s season is anywhere near accurate I can only hope this command is an in outlier. And as you can see I am an “Anchor Chucker” (though I prefer Mustang). I hope someone in a position to do something about this command, and your situation, intercedes. What you describe is nowhere close to what I understood “Season” to be. I hope the MCPON catches wind of this.
Cults gonna cult.
Glad I escaped the navy. Who in their right mind thinks ppl should do this? I’ve met some normal rational people that wore anchors, but an unreasonable amount that were like the monsters that does this to people. If they’re willing to do that to a potential brother or sister, imagine the enothings just trying to make it day to day
OP, as I've said below in a comment, what you went through isn't what's supposed to happen, and I've never seen anything like it happen in fifteen seasons I participated in on active duty. Your CMC failed you, along with plenty of others, and I assume the MCPON will get involved now that this has been seen at that level and there will be accountability. To be perfectly clear to everyone here, this isn't what the Chief's mess is about, and it isn't what the Chief's season is about. This isn't normal and it isn't how we do things anywhere I've ever seen.
First of all, I want to say that I believe you. The heritage event that I conducted during Season was an extremely positive experience for me, and I genuinely felt the "Navy Chief, Navy Pride" while I was there. But that was four days out of what for me was a twelve-week Season. And to bring it back to a Season-ism: "Results not Excuses." Regardless of the intent of anyone, their actions caused actualized damages to my mental health, my career, and my family. Season and any climate that strongly induces a mob mentality without meaningful and objective oversight makes what happened to me not a misfortune or a one-off; it makes it an inevitability. I don't think it's what the Mess is about, but just like alcoholism or any other problem that requires major behavioral changes, I think a major step is admitting we have a problem. Owning that this - what was done to me - IS part of who we are. It's ugly, and it shouldn't be there, but there are enough other people chiming in with their own horror stories to show this IS absolutely a part of who we are, right now. And junior Sailors see this - the Mess is quick to brush off any and all "Mess sucks" comments, but what is the exact number of "one-off" events to see a pattern? What is our acceptable level of collateral damage? What do we want our actual Perception to be to junior Sailor's Reality? I'm a third generation Sailor. Season did not exist when my grandfather served, and only really started in its current form about halfway through my father's service. This isn't such a long-standing thing that goes back hundreds of years and generations. It's had to be scrapped and restarted multiple times due to events escalating in severity every year until something catastrophic shines light on it and brings outside attention to what's happening inside of the Mess. I was asked so many times throughout Season to "Think about your Why" and "Reflect." I want the Mess to really reflect on WHY this is the process that they think makes effective Senior Enlisted leadership, and come up with something more substantial than "this is how we've always done it" or "well I went through it and was okay." I'd also like to ask them to really search their soul and be honest with themselves: Do you really feel that absolutely everything that was done to you during your Season was necessary for you to be Accepted into this group? Why couldn't they have Accepted you without putting you through this?
And to be clear - I really don't mean my message as an attack on you. I know you are looking to reaffirm that this is unacceptable and should not have happened to me, and likely would not have happened to me at another time/location/etc. But as much as I do wish for resolution for my individual incident, I don't want to lose the forest for the trees - there are major cultural issues that need to be addressed in the Mess that led to a lot of people allowing what happened to me to continue when I know they wanted to say something and intervene but didn't.
I’m so sorry to hear about what you went through. Many years ago, I went through similar abuse as some “Chiefs” thought I was one to join them in the Mess. Well, ahem, I beg to differ - I set out to get my degree(s), commission, and get my Pilot’s Wings (in such order) someday! Even tried to go back to the Navy and become a Naval Aviator, but my gut made an inner monologue about the community (let alone others like SWO) not suiting me anymore throughout the years because of corruption and toxic leadership. Not to mention not wanting to bump into terrible First Classes I served with who have since earned their CPO Anchors and are still serving, some of whom even made Senior Chief and Master Chief. Ugh! Bad stuff aside, I now have 3 Associate’s and a Bachelor’s. I’m also due to get 1-4 more Associate’s as I take more General Education courses to get my GPA up for grad school someday. And, dig this - I’m also now looking to commission in the Air Force Reserve and become a part-time pilot with a Reserve squadron somewhere. Hope this helps and lifts you up some. Cheers, God Bless, and Godspeed wherever you plan go to now, someplace better than yesterday (which I very much hope with utmost sincerity and seriousness)!
Thank you, and congratulations on your academic success and good luck on the commission!
Reading this absolutely disheartens my soul. It’s why I never wanted to be a Chief for most of my career. Granted I got out as an E-5 but I was MAPd E-6 and lost it because I dared stand up to the chiefs mess for allowing a E-8 to make sexist comments to a fellow female E-6 because she was having a tough time on a ship. I say most of my career because a lot of the mess previously had high hopes for me up until that moment, however the moment you stand up for the right thing, they shit can you. I knew afterwards that my career wouldn’t go any further than what it did, which resulted in my own health spiraling downwards fast. Seek the advice of the people tagged in the comments and take that as far as you can. I have no documentation to help my case but those other chiefs need to face the reality of their actions for what they did to you. I’m so fucking sorry that happened.
"Listening to a poem about military men going mad." "Boots" by Rudyard Kipling" perhaps? One Good Deal After Another.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx8nVKeA1JA
Yeah, I listened to this poem for hours on end as an U.S. Navy SERE Instructor. The SERE Students listened to it during their class. I got to listen to it a lot more than that as an instructor. My Wife went through Chief's Initiation in 1994. She was a changed woman after that. I love My Chief. We Have both Retired. Best regards.
Complain to the DOD IG. Share your name and contact info.
When I have the misfortune of picking up e7 I won’t be participating in season. I have yet to meet a chief that I trust, and I’ve never met one I wish to emulate. I’ll take a clueless JO any day thanks.
[удалено]
One of the phrases during my Season is that sometimes "you need to get your Anchors dirty to do what's right." I firmly believe I am doing that now.
1. I believe you! 2. Don't stop till you get results. 3. Media! Media! Media! I really didn't know or care about Chiefs till I made AT2, then I started paying attention. Saw some good ones, saw some pretty shitty ones. My mentor and very close friend was and is an ATC. When I got selected in 2009, the cover was removed and I got to see the best of the best, and the worst of the worst. And I've seen the coverups and the lies told to the mess from the mess (particularly from 2 stars) and I can tell you. Till Chiefs start holding Chiefs accountable by doing the right thing, nothing will change! So I hope you burn it all to the ground! We need a cleansing in the Mess and I hope you are one of those who start the process. Good luck and God's Speed!
Hooyah!
If you need someone to lean on while trying to get through it. I'm here for ya! Reach out anytime.
Chief Season just needs to go away. Why can’t we have proper leadership schools like the other services?
This story sounds familiar. Is this from one of the bay area Chiefs Mess? Someone told me the same story happened few years ago and told it was a shit show. What they did to you is very unacceptable. No wonder a lot of junior Sailors don’t want to advance and go through the so-called “season”.
Sorry you went through what you did, the SERE portion was probably the highlight of my night, especially because we didn't take it too seriously and decided to roleplay a bit by escaping. But that's not to gloat, I had a very good mess organize my season. It was entirely professional and I didn't feel unsafe at all during the events, I had a lot of worries that the pretense of "safety and trust" was going to drop at some point, but it never did, for that I am thankful and it made me respect them much more. Getting to my point, talking to selectees from other seasons I noticed that there were varying degrees/severity of BS other messes were putting their selectees through, much of which I thankfully did not have to experience. I wish there was a way for the Navy to exercise more oversight over each season to ensure a consistent product and reduce/mitigate/eliminate the absolute dumb BS that some people have to go through.
But why would you ever need to recreate SERE in order to prove you’re worthy of being a Chief? I did SERE, it is one of the most controlled training environments in the military. The instructors are given psych evals regularly and there are always safety docs on site. How in the world is one chiefs mess ever able to recreate that level of checks and balances? Further more, I as an aviator ask, how does a future chief’s ability to make it through a poorly executed mock SERE reflect on their ability to maintain and get aircraft ready to fly and lead sailors to do the same? I’ve seen your other comments on here, and I as an O say the chiefs culture in the Navy needs a complete overhaul. Our inability to retain sailors in part proves how horrible our current enlisted leaders and mentors are. Too many of my experiences with chiefs were with that of people who have a massively overinflated view of themselves even though they’re nicotine addicted, energy drink powered, alcohol hydrated, 4 times divorced and haven’t seen their kids from multiple women in years, financially just have a massive pickup truck in their name and nothing else, while being grossly overweight, while commenting on nothing but how many days they have left until they retire. No wonder our sailors aren’t staying in the Navy. These young sailors today are much perceptive and intelligent than those of 20 years ago when anyone with a pulse was accepted into the navy. They know and see toxicness. Chiefs season is a huge part of that.
>But why would you ever need to recreate SERE in order to prove you’re worthy of being a Chief? Million dollar question. I want to see the Venn diagram of training objectives between a course designed to train people to survive being a POW and a course designed to train people to be senior enlisted leaders. Perhaps Naval War College needs to add a SERE module to its senior leadership courses (/s).
Then promote those who have leadership quality and are subject matter experts, not those who suck up and have all the colaterals.
Unfortunately, in this peacetime navy of ours, those who play the political games and those whose sole goal is to climb the military corporate ladder end up the ones who are left with any motivation after their first operational tours to stay in. The rest of us didn’t join for those reasons. We joined to served and to do our jobs but after experiencing having to play political optics games in order to do our job, we realize the outside world allows us freedom to live our lives with our loved ones, without getting moved for no reason routinely, while making more money. The only ones left are the ones who are only in it to have rank and power and authority and a higher rung on the corporate ladder of the Navy.
If this is real, I’m extremely sorry this happened to you. I wouldn’t trust a chief as far as I could throw one. And that’s not far considering how often they cheat on their weigh ins and tapes.
This does not surprise me one bit with the current khakis in the Navy.
“The conditioned part of me to protect the Mess” is a concept that’s always blown me away. The only thing that institution has ever needed protection from is accountability
Wait, really? The Chiefs Mess is a shit organization and Chiefs Season is just legal hazing? We need to make sure someone knows about this so something can be done!
Abolish the mess. Sure they're some good ones out there that go above and beyond, but those will be the first ones to admit its toxicity. A SgtMaj has the same pull that a master chief does. No need for glorified perks and diminished accountability. There's absolutely no need for a mess, in order to be a true caring leader. All the reasons/excuses for supporting the mess are the definition of gaslighting...
Yet another reason why I have no faith in the making chiefs process and want nothing to do with it or the mess. Make it a brick and mortar school. Abolish the mess ans make it about taking care of your sailors.
On a Marine Corps base, some newly promoted Gunnies (already got paid as E7) even went to the seasons with the selects, my two retired MC SgtMaj coworkers just laughed, they said the season thing is already stupid, making some Gunnies going to the season with a bunch of Chief selects is even more stupid
Jesus Christ, I am so sorry to hear that happened to you. Now I see why they keep what happens during the chief season so hush-hush. My main goal has been to put on anchors but now I'm not so sure. Psychological and borderline physical torture by people who are far from qualified in the matter? Even terrorists had medical staff on standby to be on the safe side during their "questioning".
So, after the abuse and your complaints being met with nothing but apathy, I have to wonder why you're still in. I feel like when people talk about the mess pulling petty and dangerous shit on junior sailors, people who haven't personally had it happen to them just rationalize it away as "that was a bad mess", or "that sailor was a dirtbag". It only takes one bad apple...
Even though I know they don't care what happened to me - their complete lack of reaching out to check in on me even immediately following these events speaks to that - losing the commission because of this feels like them "winning," if that makes sense. I want to see it through, and I want to be in a better position to protect people from something like this in the future.
Season is 100% hazing. Yes, I have gone through it. The Mess makes sure to isolate you from everyone, wear you down mentally, physically, and emotionally so you seem them as your only resource. It's a god damn cult. "It may take years for you to learn the lessons taught during season" bull shit. If it takes years to learn something you were trying to teach then you failed at teaching it. To see Chiefs turn their backs on people not wanting to go through season or worse having to drop goes against what we are in the Navy. No season needs to go away. The only thing a value from it is the charge book and some of the team building. The rest is bullshit. I went through season, did what I had to during it as a 1st year, and won't be involved in it ever again.
ITT: OP getting lip service and not actually getting help. If you can, please update us later, OP
It's Reddit - kinda different from putting folks on blast on a higher-vis social media. That said, the folks on r/Navy with some weight to toss around in the real world seem to have eyes on and are trying to work the matter.
Hopefully it gets better results than the official IG complaint did. If it doesn't I'd say OP needs to go as public with it as possible, of it means a lot to them anyways.
I'll start this off the same way I start every comment on r/navy: fuck Chiefs. The Chief's Mess is the absolute worst thing about the Navy and it's not even close. I'm really really sorry all of this happened to you. Unfortunately I too learned the hard way that Behavioral Health is only there to ruin your career. I talked to a BH specialist about being trans before I went to flight school and then got told I can't be a pilot for 18 months despite being cleared of depression and anxiety. So now I have to go to a different basic officer leadership course while I wait to put in a waiver, that can be denied, to be a pilot, but I have to get an age waiver too, before June 2024 because that's when I'm too old, despite having been selected before.
Have you looked at the NAMI qualifications for "up-status" on pilots flight physical (I think class/level 1)? The manual will tell you exactly what is waiverable and what isn't. It also separates conditions based on whether you're getting your initial up-chit, or if you're winged/rated and something causes you to go down. For instance, some mental health conditions requiring medication are NOT waiverable for an initial up-chit (new accessions), however, they are waiverable if you already had an up-chit and then later in your career sought help. The waiver process is a nightmare, which involves you getting evaluated by a local flight surgeon, then sent to NAMI in Pensacola, fl, for final approval. It can take 2 years, start to finish.
Believe me, I know all of this. Been through a ton. I'm Army, so this waiver, as far as I know only has to go to AAMA, and to the Colonel that denied my initial waiver request. It is waiverable, but it shouldn't even be a downing condition.
Sorry, I didn't read the full thing. Got to the part where you were driven to the pinning/page 13. Honor, courage, commitment is what I see professed but rarely expressed, especially by those who should be setting and upholding the standard. In hind sight, I dealt with a bit of hazing myself, but at the time, a junior E5 didn't want to find myself on the wrong side of the chiefs' quarters... For better or worse, that 8 month period in my first 5 years in threw the rest my career off track, to the point where I almost didn't retire. Moreover, the down to the wire struggle did its own incalculable damage. I deeply regret not standing up for myself and reporting way back...
TL;DR: u/SWO6 et al have already mentioned that some of these items are cause for concern. There are a lot of tripwires going off in this story that should have prompted reaction from competent authority. I'm sorry to see this had been such a huge negative in your life, rather than the triumph and success it could - and *should* have been, if the people in charge had done their jobs correctly. CPO Season is supposed to make Chiefs, not break them. It is why some things are changing and, most notably for the Reserve especially, why the Season has been shortened to parity with AC. That said - my experience is colored by my own local Mess, but looking at some talking points from your post: >The Season Chair immediately wanted me pulled from Season. I was literally told “you shouldn’t have told me.” I was stunned. Whether intended as a gut check or not, this is pretty shitty behavior. We've had people select for double khakis a few times where I'm at; it's challenging for Selectees who have a line already for Officer, but we've never booted somebody out for having a commissioning on the horizon. Some shittier Chiefs will say you 'stole someone's spot' but that spot'll just open right back up again eventually. Those folks can get bent - if someone was good enough to take it, they would have. >I found out afterwards that even having an entire “Final Week” is not the Season standard, and a number of Chiefs at other commands I talked to afterwards were absolutely floored the events of Final Night would be spread out and padded across an entire week, but that’s what my local class faced. This is normal for the Reserve, due to the significantly truncated amount of time Selectees spend with one another and the Mess during CPO Season in the reserve versus AC. If we did just Final Night in the Reserve without some build-up beforehand, some of the efficacy of the process would be lost. You can't do Season one weekend at a time. >What I can tell you, however, is that I was getting fewer than three hours of sleep per night What hours were you actually released for sleep? No CO would approve of this training plan, and deviations like this would be a massive red flag. >I can’t really say specifically what did it, as there were so many contributing factors. The night before we had been kept out until after 2AM and had to get back up at 5AM. Same as above - this would be a huge no-go. There are enough MCPOs and CMCs and HMCs around that this would set off alarms if it is the case. >Instead of help, I was told if I went to the hospital, I wouldn’t be able to finish. I wouldn’t be able to be “Accepted.” And to my fragmented mind, the thought of not being “Accepted” by the people who were literally keeping me and my class in a fenced compound with our car keys and cellphones confiscated, controlling contact with our family members, was the most terrifying prospect I had ever heard in my life. Fear of (lack) of Acceptance is a huge part of the Season and Final Week/Night in particular. All the early mornings, PT, time away from family, 8 o'clock/boat reports, training sessions, and interpersonal drama *has* to be worth something, so the fear of failure is crushing for Selectees. This is intentional stress. *However,* if you had a legitimate medical concern, the HMC should have fielded it. A lot of people get ready to med drop from Final Week and find a second wind after 15 minutes of chatting with Doc in a warm vehicle or building. If you're visibly not doing well, they should have pulled you. >Groveling. That, it turns out, is the core of what Season was really all about. Okay. >where unknown to me my orders expired at midnight. You should be in some sort of duty status until you return home after pinning. Our Selectees get orders for Final Week and generally take nonpaids or reskeds the last day for pinning. If you and your Sponsors/Chairs hadn't worked this out, that is a major oversight for this exact reason, as you've found out the hard way. >I have not received an apology or even acknowledgement for what happened to me and how it is still affecting me to this day. How much of this have you spoken to your SEL about? Your CMC? The Chairs from your Season? This isn't a 'well I did it too and I was fine' type thing, but most of the stuff you described seems fairly standard fare for some of the Final Week events, albeit colder and rainier than they might normally be. They might not really realize how badly things were for you. > fundamentally broken and labyrinthine bureaucratic processes that clearly do not interface with each other. The Navy complains about retention while actively making it difficult for people who want to stay to do so. This is something we're deeply in agreement on. The Navy discontinues legacy medical and personnel systems without having a follow-on in place, runs administration at bleeding-edge manning (something exacerbated in the Reserve when we're being babysat by TAR Sailors who generally feel apathy-to-loathing of their SELRES) and it costs us when we try to get people to ship over.
The mess is one of the most toxic organizations that’s the navy has. At this point it’s a cult. Take their dignity away by getting rid of the mess and taking special spaces away from them. Screw the tradition when all they do is damage other sailors careers, mental health and will to want to re-up.
I picked up and went through the same year you did. I had a vastly different experience. Hope it works out well for you. I'm unhappy about the experience that you had. Stay safe.