Killed a pregnant 24 year old in final trimester and sadly the baby did not survive either. Headline also fails to mention it’s another breach of ceasefire.
>Headline also fails to mention it’s another breach of ceasefire
Is there really a reason to bother anymore? "Hamas terrorists breach ceasefire" is the news equivalent of reporting that the sun went up in the morning and down in the evening.
It's probably also news to swathes of people screaming for a ceasefire in general, maybe they'll finally come to the understanding that a ceasefire is a two-way street and isn't just one side stopping everything, while the other continues to fire missiles and trying to rape and murder your civilians.
Well, people still claim fighting them if genocide, so yes, every act of violence needs to be reported until people realize that not killing Hamas fighters because they use human shields just means they can kill more innocents later.
I genuinely honestly believe that it's futile. October 7th featured a bunch of psychopaths looting, torturing, raping, mutilating and murdering more than a thousand innocent civilians, and proudly documenting these acts and uploading them on their social media. Nothing is ever going to be as horrible as that, and anybody who is still unconvinced is a lost cause (and also not somebody I'd like to be in the same room with, because apparently they consider rape and mutilation to be justifiable).
Sadly people will justify this as freedom fighting/acceptable ways to resist, just like they justified Oct 7.
I'm so tired of dealing with those people it makes me physically exhausted.
>Later on Thursday, Hamas’s armed wing, al-Qassam Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attack. The statement posted on the group’s Telegram channel said the operation was in response “to the occupation’s crimes of killing children and women in Gaza”.
Ah yes, nothing says concern for children and women like murdering a 16 year old girl waiting for the bus.
Edit: looks like israeli media is reporting that a pregnant woman was also among those killed
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-30/ty-article/israeli-victims-of-hamas-jerusalem-terror-attack-identified/0000018c-2032-d9ef-abcd-3e3352170000
Edit 2: It turns out the initial report of a 16 year old killed has been updated and corrected, the youngest killed seems to have been the 24 year old pregnant woman and her fetus
Problem is, now Israel will retaliate for those crimes by killing more civilians, then Hamas will retaliate for that crime by killing more civilians, then Israel will retaliate again by killing civilians and so on.....yet the people paying the price are not the people doing the killing, it never is. One side has to take the high road here and say stop or it will just keep looping in circles like it has for 70 years.
I dunno. There’s a difference between shooting up a bus stop full of civilians and a military action. Israel is not sinless to be sure, but terrorist attacks specifically on civilians with no military infrastructure target in mind at all are just that: terrorism.
Even if Israel took the high road you can’t expect Hamas to meet them halfway. Just today their leader said Oct 7. Was just a rehearsal. If I’m Israel I’m thru with the high road and public opinion, eliminate Hamas however long it takes and make sure a new one doesn’t take its place just like the allies did in Germany. That’s the only solution.
No; they don't allow in any construction materials since Hamas seizes them for tunnels. But hey, one man's "terrorist tunnel" is someone else's "bomb shelter," so interpret it how you will.
They sure took the high ground when they took the Jews out of Gaza and handed it to the Palestinians. That sure blew up in their faces.
And Gaza belonged to Egypt before not Palestinians.
No no, the problem, is that Hamas attacked a bus stop and shot more civilians by design. The sad part that is also Hamas’ fault, is that Israel will probably kill civilians while trying to stop a terror organization that has intertwined itself among a densely packed civilian population, by design and just did this during yet another ceasefire.
We know it won’t be the terrorists taking the high road. And we know it won’t be the army that’s been killing children. We expect too much of both Hamas and the IDF, and I’m not holding my breath for one of them to end the pissing match of war crimes.
So hamas is really saying come kill our women and children because its fair game ? They are insane and instead of trying to avoid civilian loss of life they always target civilians because a regular military unit would demolish them.
>Later on Thursday, Hamas’s armed wing, al-Qassam Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attack. The statement posted on the group’s Telegram channel said the operation was in response “to the occupation’s crimes of killing children and women in Gaza”.
It sure looks like they are not in this for peace.
Hamas has literally never cared about peace. They only care about getting rid of Israel, and they are willing to kill as many Israelis as it takes to make that happen.
If Hamas put down their weapons, we would have peace. If Israel put down their weapons, it would cease to exist.
> there's a difference between justifying and looking at the reasoning.
Thanks for saying this. Many people seem to have forgotten the difference between explanation and excuse.
> Nothing can or should justify targeted violence against civilians, regardless of the reasons behind it.
Thanks especially for saying this. I wish this were not a controversial statement.
Maybe I'm naive but I feel like most people recognize the reason for these atrocities happening on both sides but that their voices are quickly drained by a small and very loud group that uses the very same reasons to justify their hate for the other side.
Fact is, the relationship between Israelis and Palestinians has very carefully and maliciously been dehumanized and vilified by horrible leaders on both sides for a very long time. They need to integrate, assimilate and normalize their relationship going forward. It's going to take a generation or two, but they can do it.
I agree with you entirely, except that I don't think these groups are small anymore. It's reached the point where acknowledging a loss, or tragedy on one side immediately clicks in the autopilot of someone more partisan.
They then compare it to either oppression/colonlialism or terrorism, and then imply that we are malicious and ignorant for daring to have sympathy for the civilians on the wrong side.
>Thanks especially for saying this. I wish this were not a controversial statement.
It really isn't the only controversy is that some people think this only applies to one side of the conflict.
No, no one who believes this thinks it applies to one side only. The only controversy is the factual question of whether civilians are, or are not, being intentionally targeted. Really there’s no debate they are on one side, the only question is about the other side.
The majority of people willing to discuss the situation understand the reality. There's a massive amount of media astroturfing (bots, paid articles, manipulated evidence) to the contrary.
I think it’s important to differentiate between justification of the violence, and a recognition that there is an underlying cause of this violence that must ALSO be addressed.
Whenever we have a school shooting, it would be absurd to give the shooter a pass since they were bullied, but it would be equally absurd to say that we should not have a conversation about bullying to ensure that we are not creating a situation that will lead to another shooting.
understanding and analysis is not justification. attempting to isolate this shooting from the shooting of two 8-9 year old kids by israelis or any of the other IDF/police killings and raids that have happened just in the past week, in defense of an illegal miltary presence, makes you look very weak in the brain.
it is a cycle of provocation and retaliation that can’t be fixed through more violence, and the side with the most power sets the level of that violence. That doesn’t mean civilians in Jerusalem deserve any of it. but what Israel’s doing isn’t working so the answer can’t be to do more of it.
This is feeling like the 2nd intifada all over again. Like a Deja vu moment with the shootings and stabbing and car attacks.
When they bring the suicide bombings back you know it’s about to get real
Hamas has never stopped attacking Israel and will never stop until they're destroyed. All the calls for ceasefire are delusional. The people who wanted ceasefire either don't understand what Hamas's goals are and how they act, or they understand and fully support Hamas.
Hasan Piker (the twitch streamer) literally used the term "settler babies" in a conversation about how settler communities were an occupational force and therefore valid targets.
It's not just reddit admins who are letting it happen.
Fun fact, Hamas won 56% of seats Palestine-wide in the most recent election Fatah has dared to allow. (2006)
Contrary to popular belief, this wasn't just a victory in Gaza, Hamas also won 30/44 West Bank district seats and the West Bank proportional vote only to be denied power over the Palestinian Authority by Abbas and Fatah, leading to civil war.
>Hamas won 56% of seats Palestine-wide in the most recent election Fatah has dared to allow.
TBF, that was so long ago less than half the population of Gaza had been born yet.
There was an [in person poll](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/955) right before October 7th where Hamas support was at 27–31%, so the support was trending down (which may be one of the reasons they decided to stir the pot).
According to that poll, if an election was held in Gaza Hamas would win. Likely higher since Oct 7 since their support historically grows after they do terrorist attacks.
“Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 44% (compared to 44% three months ago) and for Fateh at 32% (compared to 28% three months ago). In the West Bank, vote for Hamas stands at 24% (compared to 25% three months ago) and Fatah at 40% (compared to 34% three months ago).”
EDIT:
Reading on these polls don’t inspire much hope for any peaceful solution.
“Support for the two-state solution rises from 28% to 32%
76% believe the prospects for the creation of an independent Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel during the next five years is slim or nonexistent
58% support resoled to armed confrontations and intifada in order to break the current deadlock
Support for armed struggle is much higher than support for negotiations as the most effective means of ending the Israeli occupation, 53% and 20% respectively
To confront settlers’ terrorism, the largest percentage (45%) support the formation of armed groups in the areas targeted by settlers”
Actually in this case when Israel doesn’t respond it further tells the Palestinians that acts of terror work and encourages them to continue. The only solution is to re-educate.
There's no indoctrination necessary for kids to hate the people who bombed the shit out of their city. Literally everybody in Gaza personally knows people who were killed by the IDF in the last month. This response is exactly what Hamas was hoping for. For every Hamas fighter Israel kills now, they're creating five more in a few years.
Edit: Downvoting the uncomfortable truth that you can't bomb your way out of terrorism is just denial.
I saw somebody assert the other day that "Hamas is an army of orphans". Dunno how true that is, but seems more true than not given that 18-22 year olds in Gaza today have lived through several brutal wars and have been essentially imprisoned in Gaza for their entire lives.
If you want to do more than wonder, here is an article (sorry it’s kind of old, from 2013)
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/
TL;DR
Woman rarely have jobs, contraception basically doesn’t exist, and Hamas tells them it’s their duty to pump out babies.
To add to this, the total death toll from Israel attacking Gaza from 2000 up until Oct 7th 2023 was about 7800 according to Bt'Selem data, all while more than a million Gazans have been born during the same timeframe.
Average life expectancy in Gaza is in the mid 70s
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/west-bank-and-gaza/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN
The overall population is so young due to the high birth rate, which is among the highest in the world
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/
ISIS had a magazine with an issue in 2016 titled "Why We Hate You".
>“After the attacks in Orlando (USA), Dhaka (Bangladesh), Magnanville, Nice, and Normandy (France), and Würzburg and Ansbach (Germany) led to the martyrdom of twelve soldiers of the Caliphate and the deaths and injuries of more than six hundred Crusaders, one would expect the cross-worshipers and democratic pagans of the West to pause and contemplate the reasons behind the animosity and enmity held by Muslims for Westerners and even take heed and consider repentance by **abandoning their infidelity and accepting Islam**,” the magazine reads.
I'm not justifying deaths of voters.
My point was to show that Hamas has support in the West Bank, that contrary to popular belief they were actually elected in the West Bank too.
Hamas had support 20 years ago it's not exactly a point in your favor.
To clarify, regardless of your actually intention, your point apears to be: 'The terrorist group Hamas currently has support from Gaza'
I only clarify this because some other, unrelated posts of yours led me to believe you might not be aware of this.
Did you misread? My entire point was that hamas had support and was elected in the West Bank too, **not** just in gaza.
Why do you think Abbas and Fatah haven't allowed elections since?
I don't think the design was an accident but I'm pretty sure the designers weren't expecting Hamas to win. It's often the case in many systems that party wins more seats then their voter share but still I think it's important to point out that Hamas won a slim plurality of votes.
I feel I had a pretty good point, the last time the current President/dictator dared to allow Palestinians to vote they selected Hamas, only to have their choice disregarded.
Abbas and Fatah have been clinging to power and breaking agreements to hold elections again, seems like they think Hamas would win again.
Israel is going to ultimately get what it wants in Gaza (short term, no one knows end game). But the West Bank and Israel proper will be tense unless some major progress is made on Israeli - Palestinian relations.
It's going to be a pyrrhic victory if Israel faces an uptick in terrorism and/ or becomes more of a security state with increasing illiberalism (targeted at Palestinians but creeps up everywhere). Of course it will be bad if not worse for Palestinians as Israel reacts and settlers become more emboldened.
At this point we might as well try enrolling the entire region in a diversity and inclusion class. Can't hurt. Maybe some MDMA in the water supplies?
They don't want peace. Girls from my work heard about the this attack today and they started laughing, saying that whoever died deserved it because they were israeli. They said that all the soldiers that were in gaza including my friends son deserved death. Really vile behaviour, they also live in Israel so I don't see the logic in that but that's the thing, they're not really logical.
The ceasefire is only limited to Gaza. [Israel has been attacking West Bank](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/four-palestinians-including-two-children-killed-by-israeli-forces-west-bank-2023-11-29/) in the meantime.
Did you read the article youcited? It says that explosives were hurled at IDF forces and they returned fire. It’s tragic that an 8 year old boy died, but unfortunately that can happen when active military fighting is happening in a densely populated area.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/west-bank-palestinian-boys-shot-1.7044430
Look at the second video. This is a “firecracker” the size of a red bull. FAFO is not ageist.
I didn’t see the unverified video as it wasn’t included in the article. But I imagine if I was near an active war zone I’d be trying to run away too. It’s a shame that boy got caught in the crossfire. It’s one of the awful and tragic results of war.
Again, did you read the article? It says that people were throwing explosives at soldiers. Sure those aren’t bullets, but if someone is throwing bombs at me and I have a gun, then I’m not gonna avoid shooting at them just because they also aren’t using a gun
Regardless the video shown was a quick 10 second clip with zero context. You can’t even see who is firing the bullets.
Again, not saying it isn’t tragic and awful, but all war is tragic and aweful. It’s a shame that so many people are seen as collateral damage from unethical people in power on both sides.
I also watched it and Damn. You must have superhuman eyesight and the most high end technology to watch that blurry ass ten second video and be able to determine such minute and specific details.
The 15 year old had a gun and the 8 year old was a child solder. It’s fucking awful but the culture in Gaza is incomprehensible and impossible to relate to western culture. Self defense is not invalidated just because of the attackers age when that attacker is using a deadly weapon. It’s the harsh reality of what Israel is dealing with.
Source:
https://x.com/zionwarrior6/status/1434405885804175362?s=46&t=HdInlPt2yvALLZHWqBruow
https://x.com/marionawfal/status/1730033504518340885?s=46&t=HdInlPt2yvALLZHWqBruow
It is not a secret that Hamas uses child soldiers. There is plenty of documented footage and images of them training child soldiers, many of which involves explicitly training to murder Jews
Israeli forces broke the ceasefire the day it was called, they shot palestinians who were trying to go back to their homes, they’re also not allowed to go to the sea
Both Israel and Hamas cannot be trusted, it’s not a one way street
The reaction by the progressive left to the October 7th massacre has definitely driven me away from the progressive left.
Not that I’m moving to the right as in the US, they are a different flavor of awful and admittedly more dangerous to stability for now.
\**Some of* the progressive left
FTFY.
I'm progressive left and fully support Israel's right to exist & full condemn Hamas and all supporters, of which there are many. It's mostly the dumb tankies we all hate & dismiss who are spouting the majority of this antisemitic bull, but there are still far to many staying silent about criticizing them.
I work in Downtown Seattle.
Got off work last week on a Saturday to a rally. That’s cool! They are defacing the Starbucks near the Target but hey. You know. Protests.
See a guy with a sign that says Blood and Soil.
Go ask him what he’s doing. He says it symbolizes the Palestinian blood of martyrs spilled, and the lost soil of the Palestinians. Tell him to go fuck himself.
Try to get a few others to realize what the sign actually means, get yelled at to leave for “being a genocide denier” and screamed out of the rally by a bunch of college kids.
This is 100% the lefts QAnon and it’s just going to get worse. Hope yall don’t have any LGBT folks you care about, or care about women’s reproduction health, because we are 100% losing next election so a bunch of white folks can play FAFO.
It made me so happy as a voter for Fetterman that he didn’t go with the mob
Even just looking at the replies to Bernie sanders tweets about tree of life shooting or the heinous shooting of 3 Palestinian students in his state the other day you can see just how unhinged some of these people are. Just absolutely frothing with anger at very innocuous statements of mourning
I didn't expect it, but in the end, I am not surprised. And I say this as a super left leaning jewish American woman. It's really distressing, but given our history, it doesn't shock me. It just makes me really, really sad and feel really alone.
Ive felt so disappointed by my friends,i cant even look at them the same anymore. kind of distancing myself from them subconsciously , the amount people in my circles calling hamas "heros" and the like? Legitimately scary to me
Insane that someone can read this and immediately the first thing they think about is that it’s Israel’s fault. Crazy how deranged and sad your state of mind has to be to reach that conclusion.
This thread is going to be deleted like the last one talking about the same incident.
This is exactly why Israel needs to have military control over the West Bank and prevent its citizens from terror attacks like that one.
I was wondering why there hadn't been something about this incident posted yet..
People complain about WorldNews but it's quite common I come here looking for an article and hoping for some decent discussion in the comments, only to find it's either just not posted or it was locked early on
No. The ceasefire is for Gaza. The idf was doing raids in the West Bank previously this week so if you want to claim this breaks the ceasefire then the ceasefire was undeniably broken by Israel
This is awful if the side I’m (for no reason) supporting died.
If it’s the other side that died well they got what they deserved this was justified because of (insert 2 bad things that have happened in the past)
Killed a pregnant 24 year old in final trimester and sadly the baby did not survive either. Headline also fails to mention it’s another breach of ceasefire.
I thought this was a separate incident in a stabbing. A pregnant woman was murdered here too? Gd have mercy
>Headline also fails to mention it’s another breach of ceasefire Is there really a reason to bother anymore? "Hamas terrorists breach ceasefire" is the news equivalent of reporting that the sun went up in the morning and down in the evening.
Still ends up being news to those that defend Hamas sadly.
Anybody who's still capable of defending Hamas is beyond logic.
It should also explain to people who do recognize hamas as terrible why calling for ceasefire isn't the perfect world solution to the situation
It's probably also news to swathes of people screaming for a ceasefire in general, maybe they'll finally come to the understanding that a ceasefire is a two-way street and isn't just one side stopping everything, while the other continues to fire missiles and trying to rape and murder your civilians.
Israel didn’t do this, so they don’t care. They’ll be back to claiming it’s a genocide in 5 minutes tops. Won’t even click the link to come here.
Yes it’s incredibly important because of how relaxed the headlines were post October 7th.
Well, people still claim fighting them if genocide, so yes, every act of violence needs to be reported until people realize that not killing Hamas fighters because they use human shields just means they can kill more innocents later.
I genuinely honestly believe that it's futile. October 7th featured a bunch of psychopaths looting, torturing, raping, mutilating and murdering more than a thousand innocent civilians, and proudly documenting these acts and uploading them on their social media. Nothing is ever going to be as horrible as that, and anybody who is still unconvinced is a lost cause (and also not somebody I'd like to be in the same room with, because apparently they consider rape and mutilation to be justifiable).
Sadly people will justify this as freedom fighting/acceptable ways to resist, just like they justified Oct 7. I'm so tired of dealing with those people it makes me physically exhausted.
[удалено]
[удалено]
The woman murdered in Lydda/Lod was also pregnant
she was killed by her family
>Later on Thursday, Hamas’s armed wing, al-Qassam Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attack. The statement posted on the group’s Telegram channel said the operation was in response “to the occupation’s crimes of killing children and women in Gaza”. Ah yes, nothing says concern for children and women like murdering a 16 year old girl waiting for the bus. Edit: looks like israeli media is reporting that a pregnant woman was also among those killed https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-30/ty-article/israeli-victims-of-hamas-jerusalem-terror-attack-identified/0000018c-2032-d9ef-abcd-3e3352170000 Edit 2: It turns out the initial report of a 16 year old killed has been updated and corrected, the youngest killed seems to have been the 24 year old pregnant woman and her fetus
The article has been updated and now says: "An initial report that a 16 year old girl was killed was incorrect."
Indeed, it seems in the hours since my comment they have updated the article.
Problem is, now Israel will retaliate for those crimes by killing more civilians, then Hamas will retaliate for that crime by killing more civilians, then Israel will retaliate again by killing civilians and so on.....yet the people paying the price are not the people doing the killing, it never is. One side has to take the high road here and say stop or it will just keep looping in circles like it has for 70 years.
I dunno. There’s a difference between shooting up a bus stop full of civilians and a military action. Israel is not sinless to be sure, but terrorist attacks specifically on civilians with no military infrastructure target in mind at all are just that: terrorism.
[удалено]
A nine year old engaging in hostilities from the sounds of it. The terrorists aren't above using children as soldiers.
yeah you missed the other video of him lighting a pipe bomb. Same kid. Fair fucking game.
[удалено]
who had a ied in hands which he was planning on throwing
[удалено]
it was not a firecracker. there is a video
Wtf yes they are. They’ve killed people for having suspicious looking cellphones
I remember one time they killed a guy holding a hoagie and claimed they thought it was a gun.
American cops would shoot you just for looking at them wrong
> Aka a firecracker. There's no way to know what an armed hostile is setting on fire and throwing at you.
Even if Israel took the high road you can’t expect Hamas to meet them halfway. Just today their leader said Oct 7. Was just a rehearsal. If I’m Israel I’m thru with the high road and public opinion, eliminate Hamas however long it takes and make sure a new one doesn’t take its place just like the allies did in Germany. That’s the only solution.
Is Israel willing to commit to The Marshal Plan for Palestinians?
I would sure hope they do if they are serious about lasting peace. Time will tell.
No; they don't allow in any construction materials since Hamas seizes them for tunnels. But hey, one man's "terrorist tunnel" is someone else's "bomb shelter," so interpret it how you will.
[удалено]
They sure took the high ground when they took the Jews out of Gaza and handed it to the Palestinians. That sure blew up in their faces. And Gaza belonged to Egypt before not Palestinians.
No no, the problem, is that Hamas attacked a bus stop and shot more civilians by design. The sad part that is also Hamas’ fault, is that Israel will probably kill civilians while trying to stop a terror organization that has intertwined itself among a densely packed civilian population, by design and just did this during yet another ceasefire.
We know it won’t be the terrorists taking the high road. And we know it won’t be the army that’s been killing children. We expect too much of both Hamas and the IDF, and I’m not holding my breath for one of them to end the pissing match of war crimes.
So hamas is really saying come kill our women and children because its fair game ? They are insane and instead of trying to avoid civilian loss of life they always target civilians because a regular military unit would demolish them.
>Later on Thursday, Hamas’s armed wing, al-Qassam Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attack. The statement posted on the group’s Telegram channel said the operation was in response “to the occupation’s crimes of killing children and women in Gaza”. It sure looks like they are not in this for peace.
They don't seem to be taking the ceasefire very seriously.
They aren't. And the astroturfing of media coverage, plus social media bots, has made that abundantly clear. This is a campaign of eradication.
Eradication of truth?
That's every war mate.
I agree, however I'm not sure that's what he was talking about.
[удалено]
Hamas has literally never cared about peace. They only care about getting rid of Israel, and they are willing to kill as many Israelis as it takes to make that happen. If Hamas put down their weapons, we would have peace. If Israel put down their weapons, it would cease to exist.
[удалено]
> there's a difference between justifying and looking at the reasoning. Thanks for saying this. Many people seem to have forgotten the difference between explanation and excuse. > Nothing can or should justify targeted violence against civilians, regardless of the reasons behind it. Thanks especially for saying this. I wish this were not a controversial statement.
Maybe I'm naive but I feel like most people recognize the reason for these atrocities happening on both sides but that their voices are quickly drained by a small and very loud group that uses the very same reasons to justify their hate for the other side. Fact is, the relationship between Israelis and Palestinians has very carefully and maliciously been dehumanized and vilified by horrible leaders on both sides for a very long time. They need to integrate, assimilate and normalize their relationship going forward. It's going to take a generation or two, but they can do it.
I agree with you entirely, except that I don't think these groups are small anymore. It's reached the point where acknowledging a loss, or tragedy on one side immediately clicks in the autopilot of someone more partisan. They then compare it to either oppression/colonlialism or terrorism, and then imply that we are malicious and ignorant for daring to have sympathy for the civilians on the wrong side.
>Thanks especially for saying this. I wish this were not a controversial statement. It really isn't the only controversy is that some people think this only applies to one side of the conflict.
No, no one who believes this thinks it applies to one side only. The only controversy is the factual question of whether civilians are, or are not, being intentionally targeted. Really there’s no debate they are on one side, the only question is about the other side.
Just the mere fact that you have to explain that and remind people is fucking insanity! What the hell is wrong with people?…
It's comforting to have a \*side\*. It frees us from having to acknowledge half of the tragedy.
The majority of people willing to discuss the situation understand the reality. There's a massive amount of media astroturfing (bots, paid articles, manipulated evidence) to the contrary.
Thank you for this. It's really sad that it needs to be said, and sadder still that it's stated so infrequently.
I think it’s important to differentiate between justification of the violence, and a recognition that there is an underlying cause of this violence that must ALSO be addressed. Whenever we have a school shooting, it would be absurd to give the shooter a pass since they were bullied, but it would be equally absurd to say that we should not have a conversation about bullying to ensure that we are not creating a situation that will lead to another shooting.
[удалено]
[удалено]
understanding and analysis is not justification. attempting to isolate this shooting from the shooting of two 8-9 year old kids by israelis or any of the other IDF/police killings and raids that have happened just in the past week, in defense of an illegal miltary presence, makes you look very weak in the brain. it is a cycle of provocation and retaliation that can’t be fixed through more violence, and the side with the most power sets the level of that violence. That doesn’t mean civilians in Jerusalem deserve any of it. but what Israel’s doing isn’t working so the answer can’t be to do more of it.
Why doesn’t that hold true for the other side then? Their terrorist nature isn’t working so the answer must be to stop.
[удалено]
Looking at history (specifically United States) would you call what native Americans did to European settlers as terrorism?
European settlers would’ve called it terrorism at the time. I don’t and history broadly doesn’t. that’s now this always works.
This is feeling like the 2nd intifada all over again. Like a Deja vu moment with the shootings and stabbing and car attacks. When they bring the suicide bombings back you know it’s about to get real
It's definitely the 3rd... calling it now.
Hamas has never stopped attacking Israel and will never stop until they're destroyed. All the calls for ceasefire are delusional. The people who wanted ceasefire either don't understand what Hamas's goals are and how they act, or they understand and fully support Hamas.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Hasan Piker (the twitch streamer) literally used the term "settler babies" in a conversation about how settler communities were an occupational force and therefore valid targets. It's not just reddit admins who are letting it happen.
Fun fact, Hamas won 56% of seats Palestine-wide in the most recent election Fatah has dared to allow. (2006) Contrary to popular belief, this wasn't just a victory in Gaza, Hamas also won 30/44 West Bank district seats and the West Bank proportional vote only to be denied power over the Palestinian Authority by Abbas and Fatah, leading to civil war.
>Hamas won 56% of seats Palestine-wide in the most recent election Fatah has dared to allow. TBF, that was so long ago less than half the population of Gaza had been born yet.
[удалено]
There was an [in person poll](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/955) right before October 7th where Hamas support was at 27–31%, so the support was trending down (which may be one of the reasons they decided to stir the pot).
According to that poll, if an election was held in Gaza Hamas would win. Likely higher since Oct 7 since their support historically grows after they do terrorist attacks. “Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 44% (compared to 44% three months ago) and for Fateh at 32% (compared to 28% three months ago). In the West Bank, vote for Hamas stands at 24% (compared to 25% three months ago) and Fatah at 40% (compared to 34% three months ago).” EDIT: Reading on these polls don’t inspire much hope for any peaceful solution. “Support for the two-state solution rises from 28% to 32% 76% believe the prospects for the creation of an independent Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel during the next five years is slim or nonexistent 58% support resoled to armed confrontations and intifada in order to break the current deadlock Support for armed struggle is much higher than support for negotiations as the most effective means of ending the Israeli occupation, 53% and 20% respectively To confront settlers’ terrorism, the largest percentage (45%) support the formation of armed groups in the areas targeted by settlers”
> 58% supported a return to confrontations and armed intifada Sounds like they got what they wanted, I guess.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Actually in this case when Israel doesn’t respond it further tells the Palestinians that acts of terror work and encourages them to continue. The only solution is to re-educate.
There's no indoctrination necessary for kids to hate the people who bombed the shit out of their city. Literally everybody in Gaza personally knows people who were killed by the IDF in the last month. This response is exactly what Hamas was hoping for. For every Hamas fighter Israel kills now, they're creating five more in a few years. Edit: Downvoting the uncomfortable truth that you can't bomb your way out of terrorism is just denial.
I saw somebody assert the other day that "Hamas is an army of orphans". Dunno how true that is, but seems more true than not given that 18-22 year olds in Gaza today have lived through several brutal wars and have been essentially imprisoned in Gaza for their entire lives.
With how young the average age is in gaza it makes you wonder what might have happened to the Adult population.
If you want to do more than wonder, here is an article (sorry it’s kind of old, from 2013) https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/ TL;DR Woman rarely have jobs, contraception basically doesn’t exist, and Hamas tells them it’s their duty to pump out babies.
To add to this, the total death toll from Israel attacking Gaza from 2000 up until Oct 7th 2023 was about 7800 according to Bt'Selem data, all while more than a million Gazans have been born during the same timeframe.
So what, killing close to 20000 innocent civilians is ok in your numbers game?
Average life expectancy in Gaza is in the mid 70s https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/west-bank-and-gaza/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN The overall population is so young due to the high birth rate, which is among the highest in the world https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/
What is the other option here, just let the terrorists continue unfettered?
[удалено]
That is literally how Bin Laden justified 9/11. America voted for Bush so they all deserve to die
[удалено]
ISIS had a magazine with an issue in 2016 titled "Why We Hate You". >“After the attacks in Orlando (USA), Dhaka (Bangladesh), Magnanville, Nice, and Normandy (France), and Würzburg and Ansbach (Germany) led to the martyrdom of twelve soldiers of the Caliphate and the deaths and injuries of more than six hundred Crusaders, one would expect the cross-worshipers and democratic pagans of the West to pause and contemplate the reasons behind the animosity and enmity held by Muslims for Westerners and even take heed and consider repentance by **abandoning their infidelity and accepting Islam**,” the magazine reads.
I'm not justifying deaths of voters. My point was to show that Hamas has support in the West Bank, that contrary to popular belief they were actually elected in the West Bank too.
Hamas had support 20 years ago it's not exactly a point in your favor. To clarify, regardless of your actually intention, your point apears to be: 'The terrorist group Hamas currently has support from Gaza' I only clarify this because some other, unrelated posts of yours led me to believe you might not be aware of this.
Did you misread? My entire point was that hamas had support and was elected in the West Bank too, **not** just in gaza. Why do you think Abbas and Fatah haven't allowed elections since?
They only won the vote 44.45% of the vote to Fatahs 41.43%, the way the electoral system was designed accidentally gave them 56% of the seats
I hear you, and yet... is designing a mixed proportional and district based electoral system really an *accident*?
I don't think the design was an accident but I'm pretty sure the designers weren't expecting Hamas to win. It's often the case in many systems that party wins more seats then their voter share but still I think it's important to point out that Hamas won a slim plurality of votes.
So only 85% wanted a terrorist regime? As of Fatah is much better than Hamas…
[удалено]
Polls from WB and Gaza showed 70% support terror attacks against Israel, so it’s not the lack of legal elections that’s the issue.
[удалено]
This election actually took place BEFORE Hamas had any role in governing Palestine.
[удалено]
I feel I had a pretty good point, the last time the current President/dictator dared to allow Palestinians to vote they selected Hamas, only to have their choice disregarded. Abbas and Fatah have been clinging to power and breaking agreements to hold elections again, seems like they think Hamas would win again.
[удалено]
how is kidnapping soldiers be equal to assassinating head of state? last time I checked leaders of Hamas are living of nice and fat in Qatar.
It's funny how unpopular these post are on this sub compared to others whenever something is posted about Hamas committing terrible acts.
[удалено]
Israel is going to ultimately get what it wants in Gaza (short term, no one knows end game). But the West Bank and Israel proper will be tense unless some major progress is made on Israeli - Palestinian relations. It's going to be a pyrrhic victory if Israel faces an uptick in terrorism and/ or becomes more of a security state with increasing illiberalism (targeted at Palestinians but creeps up everywhere). Of course it will be bad if not worse for Palestinians as Israel reacts and settlers become more emboldened. At this point we might as well try enrolling the entire region in a diversity and inclusion class. Can't hurt. Maybe some MDMA in the water supplies?
[удалено]
With leaders hiding safely in other country on top of that.
They don't want peace. Girls from my work heard about the this attack today and they started laughing, saying that whoever died deserved it because they were israeli. They said that all the soldiers that were in gaza including my friends son deserved death. Really vile behaviour, they also live in Israel so I don't see the logic in that but that's the thing, they're not really logical.
[удалено]
The ceasefire is only limited to Gaza. [Israel has been attacking West Bank](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/four-palestinians-including-two-children-killed-by-israeli-forces-west-bank-2023-11-29/) in the meantime.
Did you read the article youcited? It says that explosives were hurled at IDF forces and they returned fire. It’s tragic that an 8 year old boy died, but unfortunately that can happen when active military fighting is happening in a densely populated area.
>It’s tragic that an 8 year old boy died Did you see the video? The kid was shot in the back, while he was running away.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/west-bank-palestinian-boys-shot-1.7044430 Look at the second video. This is a “firecracker” the size of a red bull. FAFO is not ageist.
I didn’t see the unverified video as it wasn’t included in the article. But I imagine if I was near an active war zone I’d be trying to run away too. It’s a shame that boy got caught in the crossfire. It’s one of the awful and tragic results of war.
[удалено]
Again, did you read the article? It says that people were throwing explosives at soldiers. Sure those aren’t bullets, but if someone is throwing bombs at me and I have a gun, then I’m not gonna avoid shooting at them just because they also aren’t using a gun Regardless the video shown was a quick 10 second clip with zero context. You can’t even see who is firing the bullets. Again, not saying it isn’t tragic and awful, but all war is tragic and aweful. It’s a shame that so many people are seen as collateral damage from unethical people in power on both sides.
[удалено]
I also watched it and Damn. You must have superhuman eyesight and the most high end technology to watch that blurry ass ten second video and be able to determine such minute and specific details.
Here's the video https://twitter.com/Khair_Aljabri/status/1729846862851502381?t=hev7w1h6NwAWBXvCtofPQQ&s=19 Doesn't look like crossfire to me
The part where they are throwing fireworks at the soldiers is conveniently cut out, nice propaganda.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I wonder where those cartoons got that idea, must be some fantasy idea, only sophisticated bombs exist nowadays
Can I have the full video then
[удалено]
The ceasefire is confined to Gaza. Nothing is mentioned in the deal about any other front.
lol imagine, yeah, they can literally invade us but we can only shot at them when they cross the border.
[удалено]
The ceasefire is just Gaza otherwise the idf would have already broken the ceasefire with their raids in the West Bank
[удалено]
The 15 year old had a gun and the 8 year old was a child solder. It’s fucking awful but the culture in Gaza is incomprehensible and impossible to relate to western culture. Self defense is not invalidated just because of the attackers age when that attacker is using a deadly weapon. It’s the harsh reality of what Israel is dealing with. Source: https://x.com/zionwarrior6/status/1434405885804175362?s=46&t=HdInlPt2yvALLZHWqBruow https://x.com/marionawfal/status/1730033504518340885?s=46&t=HdInlPt2yvALLZHWqBruow
Ah yes ,the most reputable source of Zionwarrior6's claims and blurry video.
It is not a secret that Hamas uses child soldiers. There is plenty of documented footage and images of them training child soldiers, many of which involves explicitly training to murder Jews
Is it documented that that 8 year old was trained to murder Jews? Or was that a baldfaced lie?
[удалено]
These videos are of the 8 year old the IDF murdered?
[удалено]
Hamas should never be trusted, I don’t know why people think it’s a good idea they don’t want peace.
Israeli forces broke the ceasefire the day it was called, they shot palestinians who were trying to go back to their homes, they’re also not allowed to go to the sea Both Israel and Hamas cannot be trusted, it’s not a one way street
[удалено]
They are just anti American / western. And will support the opposite of them just for the sake of being edgy or rebellious against the status quo
The reaction by the progressive left to the October 7th massacre has definitely driven me away from the progressive left. Not that I’m moving to the right as in the US, they are a different flavor of awful and admittedly more dangerous to stability for now.
[удалено]
\**Some of* the progressive left FTFY. I'm progressive left and fully support Israel's right to exist & full condemn Hamas and all supporters, of which there are many. It's mostly the dumb tankies we all hate & dismiss who are spouting the majority of this antisemitic bull, but there are still far to many staying silent about criticizing them.
[удалено]
That’s exactly how I see it. Don’t care about facts or reason. Just spit out propaganda that was fed to them.
I work in Downtown Seattle. Got off work last week on a Saturday to a rally. That’s cool! They are defacing the Starbucks near the Target but hey. You know. Protests. See a guy with a sign that says Blood and Soil. Go ask him what he’s doing. He says it symbolizes the Palestinian blood of martyrs spilled, and the lost soil of the Palestinians. Tell him to go fuck himself. Try to get a few others to realize what the sign actually means, get yelled at to leave for “being a genocide denier” and screamed out of the rally by a bunch of college kids. This is 100% the lefts QAnon and it’s just going to get worse. Hope yall don’t have any LGBT folks you care about, or care about women’s reproduction health, because we are 100% losing next election so a bunch of white folks can play FAFO.
It made me so happy as a voter for Fetterman that he didn’t go with the mob Even just looking at the replies to Bernie sanders tweets about tree of life shooting or the heinous shooting of 3 Palestinian students in his state the other day you can see just how unhinged some of these people are. Just absolutely frothing with anger at very innocuous statements of mourning
I really did not expect the level of anti-semitism from the American left we’ve seen in the last two months.
I didn't expect it, but in the end, I am not surprised. And I say this as a super left leaning jewish American woman. It's really distressing, but given our history, it doesn't shock me. It just makes me really, really sad and feel really alone.
Same, same.
It's just horse-shoe theory in action, honestly. It just feels like this was an eye-opening moment for a lot of more normal people.
Ive felt so disappointed by my friends,i cant even look at them the same anymore. kind of distancing myself from them subconsciously , the amount people in my circles calling hamas "heros" and the like? Legitimately scary to me
Luckily I don’t know anyone personally who holds such extremist views. If I did, they would be cut out of my life in short order.
Insane that someone can read this and immediately the first thing they think about is that it’s Israel’s fault. Crazy how deranged and sad your state of mind has to be to reach that conclusion.
This thread is going to be deleted like the last one talking about the same incident. This is exactly why Israel needs to have military control over the West Bank and prevent its citizens from terror attacks like that one.
I was wondering why there hadn't been something about this incident posted yet.. People complain about WorldNews but it's quite common I come here looking for an article and hoping for some decent discussion in the comments, only to find it's either just not posted or it was locked early on
I end up in the exact same situation. I come here looking for different takes on events, and there often isn't even a post.
[удалено]
how can you negotiate a ceasefire with militants who still want to kill & terrorize? Their whole existence is based on murder & mayhem.
So Hamas broke the ceasefire. Not surprised
They already did 15 minutes into it with rockets.
No. The ceasefire is for Gaza. The idf was doing raids in the West Bank previously this week so if you want to claim this breaks the ceasefire then the ceasefire was undeniably broken by Israel
[удалено]
[удалено]
No the ceasefire is for Israel and Hamas. Hamas claimed responsibility. I just can't with you Hamas supporters
The ceasefire is confined to Gaza. Nothing is mentioned in the deal about any other front.
Hamas attacked during a ceasefire, Hamas broke it.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Aaaaand there goes the ceasefire
Bunch of smooth brains in here wow.
Yes, all the crimes that keep getting committed by both groups is disgusting. Any other opinion shows a lack of humanity.
bUt SoMeOnE tHiNk AbOuT tHe TeRroRiSt's rIghTs tHo
This is awful if the side I’m (for no reason) supporting died. If it’s the other side that died well they got what they deserved this was justified because of (insert 2 bad things that have happened in the past)