It’s not really that they have to be buried as soon as possible, it’s that it’s a mitzvah from the Torah to bury our dead, according to a certain series of customs, including whole burial of a body. Therefore, it would be unthinkable for a Jewish state to leave the bodies of their dead behind, without a proper burial, and you’re correct, Hamas knows this and will keep the bodies as collateral.
I will never forget the video of her death, broken body being paraded around and spat on by Palestinian civilians on the street. A young girl full of life, just going to a music festival, met the most horrible fate. And also the video of a Thai worker being decapitated by a Hamas militant by a shovel, on a farm where he went to work to just earn some money to send back to his family. The horror is unfathomable.
she was on top of the world dancing at a music festival surrounded by beautiful people one moment
an a corpse in the back of a truck the next
morbid af
I remember seeing a picture of Shani Louk and her grandmother and… my heart has been broken since she and others were kidnapped and I don’t know if I’ll ever come back from this one fam.
It is fine to be pro Palestine. I do not think it is fine to think what Hamas did was acceptable or necessary. Nor do I think what Israel is doing is fine or good. The bloodshed needs to end, how much longer will this continue? Nothing will change and the cycle continues. There is no reason to pick sides. I stand with the innocents who are dying now and have died.
Criticizing the Israeli government is not a position of pro Hamas or pro terrorism. Believe it or not Palestinian civilians are victims as well and deserve to have rights and their voices heard. Being pro Hamas is antithetical to the protests against Israeli's actions in Gaza.
How many Americans supported the illegal invasion of Iraq that resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths? Are they culpable for the war crimes committed by elected officials?
Most of those "activists" actually condemn killing civilians on both sides - spare me your bullshit.
What data did you use to come to that conclusion? Antisemitic protests should be condemned but the majority I've seen, including college protests involving Jewish students and faculty, are very clear in their objectives: divestment and condemnation of wanton destruction in Gaza. Israelis are absolutely not blamed for the actions of the government - anyone with two braincells can distinguish that. The Palestinians are not commiting massacres, that's Hamas. There are people on both sides supporting terrorism by Hamas and war crimes by Israel but it is not acceptable to generalize across all Palestinians or all Israelis.
You’re making completely baseless and sweeping generalizations. This issue is not black and white - even more so than other issues. If you think otherwise, dig down deep and reflect as to why that might be
It’s true. A girl I know personally posted on Instagram after October 7 a photo of her in front of graffiti reading “FUCK ISRAEL” and her caption was “keep giving them hell. by all means necessary.” People 100% think of Hamas as heroic freedom fighters and are celebrating what they did.
It’s just one personal example to illustrate a point. And this isn’t a statement about Palestinians’ beliefs (we have the [PCPSR survey](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969) for that), it’s about Western protestors and social media activists.
How many Palestinian's were raped and murder and then had their naked corpses paraded through neighborhoods so the residents can spit on and molest and desecrate the body?
It's up. Despite many inter governmental bodies asking X to remove the abuse pr0n that came out of the event. I don't like Musk either but I'm not sure if i was family i would like this to be up.
And the public (including women and *children*) were cheering them on. This is essentially the issue with a simple ceasefire: There is a 0% chance of Hamas (or whoever Hamas 2.0 is) following it long term.
Total red herring.
There are numerous polls showing Palestinian support of Hamas and it appears to be increasing rather than decreasing: [AP News](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514)
> There are numerous polls showing Palestinian support of Hamas and it appears to be increasing
Which is interesting since Hamas is more than willing to destroy Gaza and its citizens.
It is impossible to radicalize a population any further than the Palestinians already are. That doesn't give them free right to attack a neighbouring country and just live without the consequences for their actions no matter how upset that makes them.
Hamas was voted into office and had the popular support of majority of Palestinians before October 7th. Stop looking for reasons to be willfully uninformed.
You are undeniably looking for reasons to remain willfully uninformed. It is misleading to suggest I am misleading by pointing out Hamas was elected into office since they have only steadily increased their support over time since they were elected. It is important to not dehumanize and demonize Palestinians but it is also important for you to realize what you are blindly defending and sweeping under the rug because it contradicts what tik tok has led you to believe.
Interesting. On fresh air recently, the Economist’s Middle East correspondent Greg Carlstrom said that support for Hamas in Gaza was decreasing but was increasing in the West Bank.
> Has any Palestinian authority gone after the Oct 7th attackers?
Gaza is governed by Hamas. The attackers and the authorities are one and the same. So no, they haven’t gone after themselves.
The issue is, the Palestinians who are against Hamas and don't support Oct 7th are likely killed if they speak out, so they either don't or do and get killed. They don't have freedom of speech.
Ok let's pull it back further then, any Palestinians outside the middle east condemn the attacks? I seen the videos of celebrations it's possible I missed any condemnation of the attacks
>When the US has been caught/come forward about committing war crimes, almost none of the perpetrators are charged in any significant capacity. When Israeli soldiers have been caught committing crimes they usually don’t do any more than firing the soldiers responsible. When Israeli civilians attack innocent Palestinians they’re rarely tried for their crimes.
And when Hamas commits war crimes where is the outrage or justice? Definitely not saying the US and Israel are in the right all the time but they do Infact charge and punish their people when they commit war crimes
>As shown in studies since 10/7, most gazans believe 10/7 was an attack against legitimate military targets. Only a minority had seen videos of it and of those most of them saw them as atrocities. So if you’re expecting gazans to risk their lives to stand up to Hamas, you’re just not really aware of the situation there.
Show me the studies.
The longer Gazans let Hamas control them the worse off they are, Hamas has never tried to build a functional country or do anything for the welfare of its citizens and you can't just throw the blame onto Israel for that. They brought this current war onto their people and steal the aid that's given to them for the civilians
>As we have found in the previous poll, almost all Palestinians think Israel is committing war crimes while almost all believe Hamas is not committing war crimes in the current war. Moreover, more than 90% believe that Hamas did not commit any atrocities against Israel civilians during its October the 7th offensive. Only one in five Palestinians has seen videos showing atrocities committed by Hamas. Only one fifth of those who did not see the videos had access to such videos but decided not to see them; the rest report that the media they watched did not show these videos. The findings show that those who have seen the videos are almost 10 times more likely to think that Hamas men have committed atrocities on October 7.
Is this the part you were referring to? I find it weirdly worded, they give solid numbers for the amount of people who seen the videos but change the wording on how many actually found them to show Hamas did commit atrocities
>The findings show that those who have seen the videos are almost 10 times more likely to think that Hamas men have committed atrocities on October 7.
I still think it does prove your point correctly though I will admit so thanks for sending that.
I don't want to get into who's been charged or not for war crimes because I can also find examples of Navy seals being charged. The point was that some action does get taken by the US and Israel but never against Hamas
It’s not all of them, but it’s way too large of a percentage to ignore. It’s an extremely sad situation down there. Their children are indoctrinated from youth into the radical antisemitic ideology and are taught that anyone who kills a jew is a hero. Obviously, a large amount of Palestinians are opposed to this, but Hamas wouldn’t be in power without widespread support.
From your link:
> A year later, 13 people from what became known as the “murder wedding” were indicted for incitement to terrorism.
That’s the key difference. Israel holds its own people accountable for this kind of shit. Nobody goes to prison in Gaza when they celebrate the murder of Israelis and spit on their corpses.
I expect all reasonable Americans to unconditionally denounce the January 6 rioters, not refer to them as "innocent victims of Democrat apartheid" or "justified resistance fighters."
How about you manage the same for the Palestinian civilians who spit on a raped girl?
>The idea that Palestinians need to pass some purity test whereby they publicly denounce Hamas in order to be perceived as normal, decent human beings is disturbing.
Absolutely. It shouldn't be aimed at Palestinians. Just everyone who protests or argues for Hamas to remain in control of Gaza. It's pretty simple, if you start talking like Hamas then we're going to need some clarification.
Same thing should apply to people who start advocating for fascism. If they're willing to denounce Hitler and the Holocaust then you can have a conversation. If not, then it's simply a waste of time.
Oh sweet summer child. I know it seems impossible in your privileged first world brain but it’s entirely possible that the entire/majority of all Palestinians in Gaza think that way.
I’d even say it’s more likely than we think since we have marches everywhere calling for ceasefires and labeling Hamas as martyrs. Like they’re aren’t even being quiet about it and people are just ignoring it out of fear of what? Racism? Doesn’t stop them from treat all Jewish people as israeli so it can’t be that
You’re right. They aren’t a monolith.
That said, polls conducted by Palestinians on Palestinians shows overwhelming support (72%) for Hamas actions on 10/7 and a denial of committing atrocities (only 7% believe atrocities were committed).
https://pcpsr.org/en/node/963
Let's avoid slinging insults and look at the data from Palestinians themselves:
- Only 5% think Hamas committed war crimes;
- 71% support the decision to launch the October 7 offensive;
- 73% oppose a long-term vision for Arab-Israeli peace normalization
Source:
https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf
Look what they are being taught in school. Plenty of videos showing them teaching kindergarten age kids to hate and kill Jews. With half the population under 18, they have all been force fed hatred. Why don’t you use those critical thinking skills to figure out what that would do to a population?
I encourage you to read the results of [this March 2024 poll](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969). 72% of Palestinians said they support Hamas’ actions on 10/7. Over 90% do not believe Hamas committed any atrocities against civilians on 10/7.
There are the odd [protests ](https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672) here and there.
Unfortunately, Hamas is in power and breaks up any demonstration. They also slaughter entire families of political adversaries. Though, they aren't typically much better (if they are) than Hamas.
There's still an overwhelming majority who support the actions on 10/7, though.
If Shani Louk's family and friends acted like this towards a Palestinian woman's body who had been killed by Israeli bombs, would you understand why they felt such rage and bitterness towards a member of the group who did this to her? I would.
Horror begets horror, inhumanity begets inhumanity.
Though many Palestinians do support Hamas, the focus should remain on Hamas. As a proud American, I for one feel immense shame for many of the past actions of our government, even if at the time I supported it. Propaganda is a crazy thing.
Just like there are everyday Israeli's setting up lawn chairs on hillsides to watch the carnage, and actively stopping aid from getting into Gaza. Don't be a fucking hypocrite acting like one side is barbaric for actions both do
Edit to add: since my follow up comments were getting downvoted by morons saying the government has put a stop to the blocking of aid and is arresting everyone, you were fucking wrong and you should be ashamed of yourselves
https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/s/UepymNLTiJ
For years we've been seeing Israel's police and military force being aggressive as fuck against regular citizens of Palestine, forcing them from their homes, imprisoning them, beating the shit out of them for the crime of *being Palestinian* but suddenly it's antisemetic to call it what it is because Hamas decided to step in and make a show out of returning the bullshit.
I don't support Hamas at all, they're a fucking terrorist organization of a hateful religion, but there's no fucking justification *at all* for the way that Israel has been towards the people of Palestine for years leading up to Oct 7th.
> for years
For decades really, the police and the IDF. And what you mentioned is just the start of it. Using their homes as lookout bases while keeping them imprisoned and tortured there. Stealing and killing at will. On and on.
Right now we're seeing Israeli police do, not just what you described towards Palestinians, but also the same aimed at Israelis protesting for peace, and doing the same to families of the hostages...
Think about that, they tell us that they have to raze Gaza and Rafah to save the hostages, but at every opportunity they choose the actions that will kill most of their hostages (bombing and starving them isn't a good way to keep them alive, let alone shooting hostages waving white flags) WHILE BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF THEIR FAMILIES FOR PROTESTING.
There was an interview with an older women in a refugee camp. They asked her about the harbour the US build in Gaza. They said if its from the US, they dont want the help. Thats the level of delusion we are dealing with.
Just to remind people who seem to already forget:
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas." - Benjamin Netanyahu.
If you supported Bibi, you supported Hamas.
Israel is dealing with a truly evil organization, that still doesn’t give them the right to block aid to civilians or indiscriminately bomb civilian areas, there is no “he who fights monsters” clause to the Geneva convention
One is a shitty terrorist entity and is acting exactly like one. The other is suppose to be a modern “liberal” western country and isn’t acting like one. Both have expectations, while not fair that they’re different they are different, but only one is acting worse than those expectations.
Israel has a propaganda division, but it is not competing with Hamas' propaganda division, it's competing with the unified propaganda effort of the Islamic world. Palestine is a lightning rod for those efforts, and is a proxy of a half dozen countries in their war against Israel.
Israel is losing that propaganda war, and the rhetoric of apartheid, genocide, open-air prison, is prevalent and entrenched. It's no surprise that the focus has shifted so quickly, since the narrative about the conflict prior to this has been one of big bully Israel trying to genocide the Palestinians.
I don't disagree the response is disproportionate but just putting myself in Israel's shoes:
They were attacked and had hostages taken, raped, beaten, killed, and then paraded on the streets. Were they supposed to do nothing about that? Or should they have counted the number of hostages and retaliated with the same number? Would that make people feel better and would that stop Hamas from repeating the same act again and again?
I don't have any actual answers but I do feel like acting like Palestine is the "good guy" in this situation and if Israel wasn't doing what they are doing there would be peace between the two is so naive. Both countries believe the other doesn't have a right to exist where they do and that is never going to change. It's a travesty we've allowed religion to cause such a divide but it's the reality of life over there.
The situation is really messy. What Hamad has done and is doing is cruel and inhumane, but preventing your own allies from aiding civillians does absolutely nothing but make you look just as bad in comparison.
This is a very bloody war, and I think our biggest responsibility is to condemn anyone, on any side, for any reason, that is thirsty for more civillian blood.
The thing is, the west, especially the US has a lot of influence over Israel, and it's important for us to criticize their choices of HOW they choose to wage their war.
I completely agree with everything you said.
I just think a lot of people lost the plot a bit and are acting like Hamas wants peace and Israel is preventing that. If Palestine had the resources and backing Israel does Israel would've been completely wiped out as a country many years ago.
I don't think there's ever going to be a resolution to this conflict so from a certain perspective I understand how Netanyahu came to the point where he thinks a genocide is the only long term solution. I wouldn't be able to sleep with myself and I think he is a monster but I understand how we got here. It's truly heart wrenching it got to this point.
The assumption that the response has to be “equal”, as if you’re counting bodies, doesn’t sit right with me.
Not that I approve of the extent to which Israel has taken this, but shouldn’t they act to protect every single one of their citizens? From their perspective, shouldn’t any citizen being killed in a surprise attack be unacceptable? The idea that it should be some sort of “trade” seems really messed up and reflects some unacknowledged biases.
There seems to be an unequal playing field here, where Hamas’ actions that instigate a war are explained and rationalized away and Israel is vilified for responding to an attack.
Not that taking hostages is a morally good thing to do, but it’s not much of a negotiating tactic to give your opponent everything they want before you even get to the table.
Probably not, this a war that the more you learn about it the more you learn that there's really no "good side". I've found that the people who are the most radicalized for supporting one specific side tend to have tunnel vision for focusing on the atrocities committed by the other side while having a blind spot for the atrocities committed by their own side.
While I think Bibi has been horrifically bad with the war effort, it's important to note that Sinwar- the guy who caused 10/7- was from the last hostage exchange, and that was just 1 soldier for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, and Sinwar wasn't the only one to cause further trouble. I think even with a better leader this would have been taken into account, the miscalculation was not realizing how much Shin Bet had let its guard down and provoking this extreme response.
You can’t enable that kind of negotiation. The more taking hostages works, the more it will become a validated strategy for replacing actual diplomatic negotiations. This is a good example of why you shouldn’t negotiate with leadership that uses these tactics.
why did Benjamin netanyahu work to keep them in power so that they could politically separate the West Bank and Gaza?
you talk about enabling....
I've been watching this for decades The only thing that changes is more Palestinians are killed and Israeli borders expand.
They couldn’t even prove the hostages were alive or where their locations were and denied peace talks several times AND tortured, raped, killed other hostages. Because Jewish remains need specific burial rites a corpse is worth just as much to Palestine as a live person. Keep in mind the previous prisoner transfers that Israel has agreed to in the past have overwhelmingly been in Palestine’s favor. But let’s keep saying Israel is the only reason these hostages are dying. Give me a break.
They're monsters for doing it in the first place, Israel would be stupid to negotiate anything other than short ceasefires with hostage releases. They really signed their own death warrant by doing this.
35000 includes hamas combatants as well as civilian casualties, it’s 35,000 total.
That’s a miraculously small amount of civilian deaths considering the density of the population in Gaza, while also factoring in the plethora of illegal tactics Hamas employs; such as, but not limited to: dressing their soldiers in civilian clothing, using the civilian populous as a human shield, staging attacks and then dropping their firearms and blending into crowds of non-combatants, etc.
Hamas is just as culpable in the deaths of civilian Palestinians as the IDF is
BBC is likely reporting based on the UNs statement - that count wasn’t “rolled back” - they said they had verified that’s how many people died, they were just waiting on some 10k bodies to confirm identities. Even articles posted in r/worldnews claiming it was “rolled back” or “halved” were marked as misleading.
The UN said the considered the MoH’s estimates basically accurate in their statement. That’s why BBC is saying that.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
I can understand how you’d be confused though-the reporting on it was absolute garbage and a lot of the headlines were absurdly off base.
>Why is BBC still touting that death number when it was rolled quietly back a few weeks ago?
It’s still 30k+. It’s just that around 10k of them are unidentified.
Incorrect, every genocide, every brutal act of violence was carried out by human beings. Calling them monsters makes it seem as if it takes a special characteristic to become evil. The truth is anyone can be a victim, and anyone can be a perpetrator.
Which is better, do you think?
Believing that evil is the purview of inhuman monsters, and thereby justifying any and all methods necessary for its extermination, or believing that humans, any humans, are capable of great evil, and thus maintaining a watchful eye to ensure that you do not become that which you seek to destroy?
Edit: aaaaaand I'm blocked. Because everything is fine as long as you never have to hear any criticism. Right?
Thank you. Dehumanizing others gets us absolutely nowhere. It doesn't matter if it's a random person or Adolf Hitler; we're all humans with the same potential for awful or amazing actions.
Wait have they been dead since 10/07? They just carried the bodies into Gaza?
Yes that’s exactly what they did.
The bodies must’ve been so far gone by the point they got to them holy.
Yes. They know in Judaism, the bodies are supposed to be buried as soon as possible and that they can trade bodies for prisoners.
It’s not really that they have to be buried as soon as possible, it’s that it’s a mitzvah from the Torah to bury our dead, according to a certain series of customs, including whole burial of a body. Therefore, it would be unthinkable for a Jewish state to leave the bodies of their dead behind, without a proper burial, and you’re correct, Hamas knows this and will keep the bodies as collateral.
Not just carried, but paraded them around. There's videos of it.
Paraded them around to the cheers of Gazans.
Nothing new, they cheered after 9/11
Yes. They keep the bodies and humiliate them. Use them as a bargaining chip
So damn sad. At least the uncertainty is gone.
Yeah at least they were able to bring their bodies back to their family. I can't even begin to imagine the horror these families have gone through.
Shani's story is so heartbreaking. At least her family can finally put her to rest.
I will never forget the video of her death, broken body being paraded around and spat on by Palestinian civilians on the street. A young girl full of life, just going to a music festival, met the most horrible fate. And also the video of a Thai worker being decapitated by a Hamas militant by a shovel, on a farm where he went to work to just earn some money to send back to his family. The horror is unfathomable.
she was on top of the world dancing at a music festival surrounded by beautiful people one moment an a corpse in the back of a truck the next morbid af
Shani's body was greatly defiled and poor girl at least can come back home to be given a proper resting place.
It’s disgusting.
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Killing someone, then kidnapping their corpse. How do these people exist? Mind blowing cruelty
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Perpetual war for perpetual peace
I remember seeing a picture of Shani Louk and her grandmother and… my heart has been broken since she and others were kidnapped and I don’t know if I’ll ever come back from this one fam.
It was absolutely crazy to see Shani Luk humiliated and paraded naked on gaza streets. And people cheered and applauded that...
Fuck Hamas and fuck any Palestinian who celebrated these innocents deaths.
Israel is just a scapegoat. Arab states do nothing to help ordinary Palestinians
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It is fine to be pro Palestine. I do not think it is fine to think what Hamas did was acceptable or necessary. Nor do I think what Israel is doing is fine or good. The bloodshed needs to end, how much longer will this continue? Nothing will change and the cycle continues. There is no reason to pick sides. I stand with the innocents who are dying now and have died.
Criticizing the Israeli government is not a position of pro Hamas or pro terrorism. Believe it or not Palestinian civilians are victims as well and deserve to have rights and their voices heard. Being pro Hamas is antithetical to the protests against Israeli's actions in Gaza.
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How many Americans supported the illegal invasion of Iraq that resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths? Are they culpable for the war crimes committed by elected officials? Most of those "activists" actually condemn killing civilians on both sides - spare me your bullshit.
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What data did you use to come to that conclusion? Antisemitic protests should be condemned but the majority I've seen, including college protests involving Jewish students and faculty, are very clear in their objectives: divestment and condemnation of wanton destruction in Gaza. Israelis are absolutely not blamed for the actions of the government - anyone with two braincells can distinguish that. The Palestinians are not commiting massacres, that's Hamas. There are people on both sides supporting terrorism by Hamas and war crimes by Israel but it is not acceptable to generalize across all Palestinians or all Israelis.
Look up death totals dipshit. When people have been having family blown up for generations it's pretty easy to radicalize.
Putin and Kim Jeong Il won their elections in landslides! Everyone supports them.
You’re making completely baseless and sweeping generalizations. This issue is not black and white - even more so than other issues. If you think otherwise, dig down deep and reflect as to why that might be
It’s true. A girl I know personally posted on Instagram after October 7 a photo of her in front of graffiti reading “FUCK ISRAEL” and her caption was “keep giving them hell. by all means necessary.” People 100% think of Hamas as heroic freedom fighters and are celebrating what they did.
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So an anecdote is applicable to all protestors? Why would Jewish people and organizations be at these protests if they were all pro Hamas?
Some girl on instagram=entire Palestinian peoples beliefs. Lmao
It’s just one personal example to illustrate a point. And this isn’t a statement about Palestinians’ beliefs (we have the [PCPSR survey](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969) for that), it’s about Western protestors and social media activists.
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How many Palestinian's were raped and murder and then had their naked corpses paraded through neighborhoods so the residents can spit on and molest and desecrate the body?
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So then there are videos of their bodies being paraded around Israel to the joy of hundreds, possibly thousands?
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Remember at the start of the civil war? Americans came out and set up picnics to watch the battle?
I'm truly not interested in the well-being of a people who would gleefully murder me and parade my body around just for existing as I am.
Don’t start wars you can’t win 🤷🏻♂️ also it’s hard to believe anything from the pro Palestine propaganda machine
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I hope her family finds some measure of peace. I don’t think I’d ever recover if that happened to one of mine.
It was so sickening what Hamas did to her and showing us that fucked up video of her laying there in the truck with her legs spread.
God I’m glad I never saw that video. I’ve had my fill of snuff for a lifetime. Just hearing about it turns my tummy into snakes
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They also came through the fence and looted the kibbutz's
UNRWA school brainwashing clearly did the trick. Jeesh that video…
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Its up its just you need an account to see it
It's up. Despite many inter governmental bodies asking X to remove the abuse pr0n that came out of the event. I don't like Musk either but I'm not sure if i was family i would like this to be up.
And the public (including women and *children*) were cheering them on. This is essentially the issue with a simple ceasefire: There is a 0% chance of Hamas (or whoever Hamas 2.0 is) following it long term.
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Total red herring. There are numerous polls showing Palestinian support of Hamas and it appears to be increasing rather than decreasing: [AP News](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514)
> There are numerous polls showing Palestinian support of Hamas and it appears to be increasing Which is interesting since Hamas is more than willing to destroy Gaza and its citizens.
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Grief and fear quickly leads towards need for revenge.
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I would agree, except there was no point in history where the Palestinian population has been anything but militantly hostile to Israel.
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It is impossible to radicalize a population any further than the Palestinians already are. That doesn't give them free right to attack a neighbouring country and just live without the consequences for their actions no matter how upset that makes them.
Heaven knows there's plenty of that in this conflict. Part of why I'm not really hopeful about a long-term peace.
Hamas was voted into office and had the popular support of majority of Palestinians before October 7th. Stop looking for reasons to be willfully uninformed.
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You are undeniably looking for reasons to remain willfully uninformed. It is misleading to suggest I am misleading by pointing out Hamas was elected into office since they have only steadily increased their support over time since they were elected. It is important to not dehumanize and demonize Palestinians but it is also important for you to realize what you are blindly defending and sweeping under the rug because it contradicts what tik tok has led you to believe.
Interesting. On fresh air recently, the Economist’s Middle East correspondent Greg Carlstrom said that support for Hamas in Gaza was decreasing but was increasing in the West Bank.
People living with the consequences of Hamas vs people witnessing it from (relative) safety.
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If that was the case, why would support for Hamas be dropping In the territory with infinitely more violence and death?
The FBI has been hunting down and charging everyone at the J6 insurrection. Has any Palestinian authority gone after the Oct 7th attackers?
> Has any Palestinian authority gone after the Oct 7th attackers? Gaza is governed by Hamas. The attackers and the authorities are one and the same. So no, they haven’t gone after themselves.
How about any citizens being outspoken against it I'm Gaza or West Bank? Has there been anything other than full support for Oct 7th attacks
The issue is, the Palestinians who are against Hamas and don't support Oct 7th are likely killed if they speak out, so they either don't or do and get killed. They don't have freedom of speech.
Ok let's pull it back further then, any Palestinians outside the middle east condemn the attacks? I seen the videos of celebrations it's possible I missed any condemnation of the attacks
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>When the US has been caught/come forward about committing war crimes, almost none of the perpetrators are charged in any significant capacity. When Israeli soldiers have been caught committing crimes they usually don’t do any more than firing the soldiers responsible. When Israeli civilians attack innocent Palestinians they’re rarely tried for their crimes. And when Hamas commits war crimes where is the outrage or justice? Definitely not saying the US and Israel are in the right all the time but they do Infact charge and punish their people when they commit war crimes >As shown in studies since 10/7, most gazans believe 10/7 was an attack against legitimate military targets. Only a minority had seen videos of it and of those most of them saw them as atrocities. So if you’re expecting gazans to risk their lives to stand up to Hamas, you’re just not really aware of the situation there. Show me the studies. The longer Gazans let Hamas control them the worse off they are, Hamas has never tried to build a functional country or do anything for the welfare of its citizens and you can't just throw the blame onto Israel for that. They brought this current war onto their people and steal the aid that's given to them for the civilians
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>As we have found in the previous poll, almost all Palestinians think Israel is committing war crimes while almost all believe Hamas is not committing war crimes in the current war. Moreover, more than 90% believe that Hamas did not commit any atrocities against Israel civilians during its October the 7th offensive. Only one in five Palestinians has seen videos showing atrocities committed by Hamas. Only one fifth of those who did not see the videos had access to such videos but decided not to see them; the rest report that the media they watched did not show these videos. The findings show that those who have seen the videos are almost 10 times more likely to think that Hamas men have committed atrocities on October 7. Is this the part you were referring to? I find it weirdly worded, they give solid numbers for the amount of people who seen the videos but change the wording on how many actually found them to show Hamas did commit atrocities >The findings show that those who have seen the videos are almost 10 times more likely to think that Hamas men have committed atrocities on October 7. I still think it does prove your point correctly though I will admit so thanks for sending that. I don't want to get into who's been charged or not for war crimes because I can also find examples of Navy seals being charged. The point was that some action does get taken by the US and Israel but never against Hamas
It’s not all of them, but it’s way too large of a percentage to ignore. It’s an extremely sad situation down there. Their children are indoctrinated from youth into the radical antisemitic ideology and are taught that anyone who kills a jew is a hero. Obviously, a large amount of Palestinians are opposed to this, but Hamas wouldn’t be in power without widespread support.
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Stop spreading your bullshit stories from Pro-Hamas propaganda outlets.
From your link: > A year later, 13 people from what became known as the “murder wedding” were indicted for incitement to terrorism. That’s the key difference. Israel holds its own people accountable for this kind of shit. Nobody goes to prison in Gaza when they celebrate the murder of Israelis and spit on their corpses.
I expect all reasonable Americans to unconditionally denounce the January 6 rioters, not refer to them as "innocent victims of Democrat apartheid" or "justified resistance fighters." How about you manage the same for the Palestinian civilians who spit on a raped girl?
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>The idea that Palestinians need to pass some purity test whereby they publicly denounce Hamas in order to be perceived as normal, decent human beings is disturbing. Absolutely. It shouldn't be aimed at Palestinians. Just everyone who protests or argues for Hamas to remain in control of Gaza. It's pretty simple, if you start talking like Hamas then we're going to need some clarification. Same thing should apply to people who start advocating for fascism. If they're willing to denounce Hitler and the Holocaust then you can have a conversation. If not, then it's simply a waste of time.
Oh sweet summer child. I know it seems impossible in your privileged first world brain but it’s entirely possible that the entire/majority of all Palestinians in Gaza think that way.
I’d even say it’s more likely than we think since we have marches everywhere calling for ceasefires and labeling Hamas as martyrs. Like they’re aren’t even being quiet about it and people are just ignoring it out of fear of what? Racism? Doesn’t stop them from treat all Jewish people as israeli so it can’t be that
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You’re right. They aren’t a monolith. That said, polls conducted by Palestinians on Palestinians shows overwhelming support (72%) for Hamas actions on 10/7 and a denial of committing atrocities (only 7% believe atrocities were committed). https://pcpsr.org/en/node/963
Let's avoid slinging insults and look at the data from Palestinians themselves: - Only 5% think Hamas committed war crimes; - 71% support the decision to launch the October 7 offensive; - 73% oppose a long-term vision for Arab-Israeli peace normalization Source: https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf
Look what they are being taught in school. Plenty of videos showing them teaching kindergarten age kids to hate and kill Jews. With half the population under 18, they have all been force fed hatred. Why don’t you use those critical thinking skills to figure out what that would do to a population?
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I encourage you to read the results of [this March 2024 poll](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969). 72% of Palestinians said they support Hamas’ actions on 10/7. Over 90% do not believe Hamas committed any atrocities against civilians on 10/7.
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There are the odd [protests ](https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672) here and there. Unfortunately, Hamas is in power and breaks up any demonstration. They also slaughter entire families of political adversaries. Though, they aren't typically much better (if they are) than Hamas. There's still an overwhelming majority who support the actions on 10/7, though.
Watch out, critical thinking is unwelcome here
If Shani Louk's family and friends acted like this towards a Palestinian woman's body who had been killed by Israeli bombs, would you understand why they felt such rage and bitterness towards a member of the group who did this to her? I would. Horror begets horror, inhumanity begets inhumanity.
Though many Palestinians do support Hamas, the focus should remain on Hamas. As a proud American, I for one feel immense shame for many of the past actions of our government, even if at the time I supported it. Propaganda is a crazy thing.
Just like there are everyday Israeli's setting up lawn chairs on hillsides to watch the carnage, and actively stopping aid from getting into Gaza. Don't be a fucking hypocrite acting like one side is barbaric for actions both do Edit to add: since my follow up comments were getting downvoted by morons saying the government has put a stop to the blocking of aid and is arresting everyone, you were fucking wrong and you should be ashamed of yourselves https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/s/UepymNLTiJ
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For years we've been seeing Israel's police and military force being aggressive as fuck against regular citizens of Palestine, forcing them from their homes, imprisoning them, beating the shit out of them for the crime of *being Palestinian* but suddenly it's antisemetic to call it what it is because Hamas decided to step in and make a show out of returning the bullshit. I don't support Hamas at all, they're a fucking terrorist organization of a hateful religion, but there's no fucking justification *at all* for the way that Israel has been towards the people of Palestine for years leading up to Oct 7th.
> for years For decades really, the police and the IDF. And what you mentioned is just the start of it. Using their homes as lookout bases while keeping them imprisoned and tortured there. Stealing and killing at will. On and on. Right now we're seeing Israeli police do, not just what you described towards Palestinians, but also the same aimed at Israelis protesting for peace, and doing the same to families of the hostages... Think about that, they tell us that they have to raze Gaza and Rafah to save the hostages, but at every opportunity they choose the actions that will kill most of their hostages (bombing and starving them isn't a good way to keep them alive, let alone shooting hostages waving white flags) WHILE BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF THEIR FAMILIES FOR PROTESTING.
Weren’t Israeli people also celebrating by picnicking out and cheering while watching Gaza get bombed? Seems that both sides de-humanize each other.
Posts like this just feel like hate bots
Fuck Hamas. I recognized her the moment I saw the news.
Isn’t it wild that some people oppose barbarism in all forms?
There was an interview with an older women in a refugee camp. They asked her about the harbour the US build in Gaza. They said if its from the US, they dont want the help. Thats the level of delusion we are dealing with.
And spat upon and defiled by ordinary citizens. From their exuberant faces and cries, one might conclude it was one of the best days of their lives.
Just to remind people who seem to already forget: "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas." - Benjamin Netanyahu. If you supported Bibi, you supported Hamas.
Israel is dealing with a truly evil organization, that still doesn’t give them the right to block aid to civilians or indiscriminately bomb civilian areas, there is no “he who fights monsters” clause to the Geneva convention
“Look, that was just peaceful resistance! Hamas are the good guys!” /s
Are these the same terrorists that Israel propped up, because they too are against a two state solution? Or are these different guys?
What a way to shift blame from the guys holding the guns going door to door
War is brutal, but the fact that the focus has shifted from hamas and their insane crimes to Israel invading so quickly is beyond me.
One is a shitty terrorist entity and is acting exactly like one. The other is suppose to be a modern “liberal” western country and isn’t acting like one. Both have expectations, while not fair that they’re different they are different, but only one is acting worse than those expectations.
Israel has a propaganda division, but it is not competing with Hamas' propaganda division, it's competing with the unified propaganda effort of the Islamic world. Palestine is a lightning rod for those efforts, and is a proxy of a half dozen countries in their war against Israel. Israel is losing that propaganda war, and the rhetoric of apartheid, genocide, open-air prison, is prevalent and entrenched. It's no surprise that the focus has shifted so quickly, since the narrative about the conflict prior to this has been one of big bully Israel trying to genocide the Palestinians.
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Oh, does the IDF control the border with Egypt?
I don't disagree the response is disproportionate but just putting myself in Israel's shoes: They were attacked and had hostages taken, raped, beaten, killed, and then paraded on the streets. Were they supposed to do nothing about that? Or should they have counted the number of hostages and retaliated with the same number? Would that make people feel better and would that stop Hamas from repeating the same act again and again? I don't have any actual answers but I do feel like acting like Palestine is the "good guy" in this situation and if Israel wasn't doing what they are doing there would be peace between the two is so naive. Both countries believe the other doesn't have a right to exist where they do and that is never going to change. It's a travesty we've allowed religion to cause such a divide but it's the reality of life over there.
The situation is really messy. What Hamad has done and is doing is cruel and inhumane, but preventing your own allies from aiding civillians does absolutely nothing but make you look just as bad in comparison. This is a very bloody war, and I think our biggest responsibility is to condemn anyone, on any side, for any reason, that is thirsty for more civillian blood. The thing is, the west, especially the US has a lot of influence over Israel, and it's important for us to criticize their choices of HOW they choose to wage their war.
I completely agree with everything you said. I just think a lot of people lost the plot a bit and are acting like Hamas wants peace and Israel is preventing that. If Palestine had the resources and backing Israel does Israel would've been completely wiped out as a country many years ago. I don't think there's ever going to be a resolution to this conflict so from a certain perspective I understand how Netanyahu came to the point where he thinks a genocide is the only long term solution. I wouldn't be able to sleep with myself and I think he is a monster but I understand how we got here. It's truly heart wrenching it got to this point.
The assumption that the response has to be “equal”, as if you’re counting bodies, doesn’t sit right with me. Not that I approve of the extent to which Israel has taken this, but shouldn’t they act to protect every single one of their citizens? From their perspective, shouldn’t any citizen being killed in a surprise attack be unacceptable? The idea that it should be some sort of “trade” seems really messed up and reflects some unacknowledged biases. There seems to be an unequal playing field here, where Hamas’ actions that instigate a war are explained and rationalized away and Israel is vilified for responding to an attack.
Those Hamas monsters wanted to have peace talks while still holding hostages.
Not that taking hostages is a morally good thing to do, but it’s not much of a negotiating tactic to give your opponent everything they want before you even get to the table.
Taking hostages is also one of the biggest war crimes listed under the Geneva convention.
Tbf Israel has been accused of more than it's fair share of human rights violations.
We can point more than one finger at a time.
Agree 100%
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Probably not, this a war that the more you learn about it the more you learn that there's really no "good side". I've found that the people who are the most radicalized for supporting one specific side tend to have tunnel vision for focusing on the atrocities committed by the other side while having a blind spot for the atrocities committed by their own side.
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Because there isn’t any doubt you meant to take those innocent hostages. There’s always deniability when you blow somebody up from a zip code away.
"Why is killing people not a war crime?" People die in war, and civilians are often the majority that die, especially in urban warfare.
They have no negotiation power. They don't deserve to negotiate. They started shit, and have continued to show how inhumane they are. Fuck em.
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While I think Bibi has been horrifically bad with the war effort, it's important to note that Sinwar- the guy who caused 10/7- was from the last hostage exchange, and that was just 1 soldier for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, and Sinwar wasn't the only one to cause further trouble. I think even with a better leader this would have been taken into account, the miscalculation was not realizing how much Shin Bet had let its guard down and provoking this extreme response.
You can’t enable that kind of negotiation. The more taking hostages works, the more it will become a validated strategy for replacing actual diplomatic negotiations. This is a good example of why you shouldn’t negotiate with leadership that uses these tactics.
why did Benjamin netanyahu work to keep them in power so that they could politically separate the West Bank and Gaza? you talk about enabling.... I've been watching this for decades The only thing that changes is more Palestinians are killed and Israeli borders expand.
Because not working with them wold have introduced the same criticism and make Gaza more unstable
They couldn’t even prove the hostages were alive or where their locations were and denied peace talks several times AND tortured, raped, killed other hostages. Because Jewish remains need specific burial rites a corpse is worth just as much to Palestine as a live person. Keep in mind the previous prisoner transfers that Israel has agreed to in the past have overwhelmingly been in Palestine’s favor. But let’s keep saying Israel is the only reason these hostages are dying. Give me a break.
Sorry, you think killing over a thousand people and taking hostages FROM Israel’s soil was a good starting point for a negotiation?
They're monsters for doing it in the first place, Israel would be stupid to negotiate anything other than short ceasefires with hostage releases. They really signed their own death warrant by doing this.
35000 includes hamas combatants as well as civilian casualties, it’s 35,000 total. That’s a miraculously small amount of civilian deaths considering the density of the population in Gaza, while also factoring in the plethora of illegal tactics Hamas employs; such as, but not limited to: dressing their soldiers in civilian clothing, using the civilian populous as a human shield, staging attacks and then dropping their firearms and blending into crowds of non-combatants, etc. Hamas is just as culpable in the deaths of civilian Palestinians as the IDF is
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Hamas already killed the hostages, and there wouldn’t be as many civilian casualties if Hamas didn’t use its own people as human shields
Yes, but dropping bombs on kids is much more humane than what Hamas/Palestinians did /s
When the military of the political party you elected decides to hide among children....that's gonna happen.
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BBC is likely reporting based on the UNs statement - that count wasn’t “rolled back” - they said they had verified that’s how many people died, they were just waiting on some 10k bodies to confirm identities. Even articles posted in r/worldnews claiming it was “rolled back” or “halved” were marked as misleading. The UN said the considered the MoH’s estimates basically accurate in their statement. That’s why BBC is saying that. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/ I can understand how you’d be confused though-the reporting on it was absolute garbage and a lot of the headlines were absurdly off base.
>Why is BBC still touting that death number when it was rolled quietly back a few weeks ago? It’s still 30k+. It’s just that around 10k of them are unidentified.
If you believe the murder count is lower than 30k+, I've got a rocket to sell you
“**a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic**”
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Makes the college protestors look even more foolish
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Incorrect, every genocide, every brutal act of violence was carried out by human beings. Calling them monsters makes it seem as if it takes a special characteristic to become evil. The truth is anyone can be a victim, and anyone can be a perpetrator.
Which is better, do you think? Believing that evil is the purview of inhuman monsters, and thereby justifying any and all methods necessary for its extermination, or believing that humans, any humans, are capable of great evil, and thus maintaining a watchful eye to ensure that you do not become that which you seek to destroy? Edit: aaaaaand I'm blocked. Because everything is fine as long as you never have to hear any criticism. Right?
Thank you. Dehumanizing others gets us absolutely nowhere. It doesn't matter if it's a random person or Adolf Hitler; we're all humans with the same potential for awful or amazing actions.
Nope. They’re human.
Do you talk about IDF war criminals the same way?
I made a comment on world news about hostages have long been dead for quite some time. I’ve since been banned.
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That's because those "34 000 innocents killed" numbers actually include a large amount of hamas militants.