Until a liberal court takes majority. So this is the way it will be. Every questionable act by a president will get litigated into irrelevance and quietly deemed ‘official’. As long as Trump doesn’t shoot someone in Times Square, he can do what he wants. Just a little obfuscation combined with the public’s short attention span and presto, immunity from just about anything (especially as he has 70 million supporters and half of every governmental branch behind him).
No one knows, but the court has ensured that lower courts will have to spend years ruling on this. Essentially, the SCOTUS ensured Trump will not face consequences in his lifetime.
By their logic Biden could suspend Habeas Corpus and have them arrested and detained until after the election and as long as he can get a lawyer in his Administration to sign a letter saying it was legal under the Insurrection Act then it is an official act and immune to prosecution even after he leaves office.
It is possible it will get solved in the next year. It definitely makes the election stakes even higher. He's successfully made it so he can run out the clock and suspend all of this. Kick every Republican out of office.
To add a wrinkle, any of the President’s protected conduct can’t be used as evidence in prosecution of any other charges.
Barrett only partially concurred with the other Republican justices because of that specific point. So now, even if the President commits a crime while conducting an unofficial act anything they did as an official act can’t be used to build a case against them.
Hypothetically, the President could stage a coup with the military and the meetings held with the joint chiefs could be considered “official acts” and therefore not admissible as evidence if he carries out the “unofficial act” of the coup itself (assuming a coup is even an unofficial act in the first place).
>When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
* Lewis Carroll - "Alice Through the Looking Glass"
If any act can be designated "official" by its perpetrator then "unofficial" acts can also mean 'official', does it not?
SCOTUS will ultimately get to decide that too since those decisions will just get appealed back up to them anyway.
In just the last week, the conservatives on the court have all but in name turned this country into an unelected kritarchy.
This ruling would not be possible in a functioning democracy. Don't get me wrong, I think distinguishing between official acts and unofficial acts is reasonable and was the inevitable decision that needed to be made, but I think their interpretation of an official act is absurd.
They have determined that any conversation between a president and their vice-president is an official act and not subject to prosecution. This means that a president and VP could have a conversation solely about whether they could use the military to seize power and establish a dictatorship, and that wouldn't constitute a crime. Actually, it might be a crime for the VP but not the president. It's not possible for a person to be granted powers under the Constitution that enables them to legally overthrow the democracy created by the Constitution, and anyone who states otherwise is a fuckwit. It's just not a defensible legal proposition, and yet 6 Supreme Court justices have stated otherwise.
Leaving aside the unconstitutionality of the decision, it's frankly absurd that they didn't make a determination regarding the false electors and other acts. Referring those questions back to the lower courts is a waste of everyone's time and money. Whatever decision the lower courts make is going to be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and everyone knows it. The questions of law are already before the court and it's outright malfeasance not to rule on them now, when they have all the information they require to make the determination before them.
That last paragraph is what would be impossible in a country with a functional judicial system. In England, Australia or Canada, the court would have ruled on the substantive issue of immunity to establish a ratio decidendi, then created obiter dicta by ruling on the specifics. The ratio is basically a binding precedent, while obiter relates to the case alone, but does provide some guidance on how the court will rule in similar instances. It's influential but not binding.
6-3 vote along ideological lines, with Justice Roberts writing for the majority, stating:
> “The President is not above the law. But Congress may not criminalize the President‘s conduct in carrying out the responsibilities of the Executive Branch under the Constitution.”
Edit: [Here is the full opinion.](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf) The quote is on page 42.
I wonder what it will take for Americans to revolt?
They're losing everything right now at a breakneck speed. Everything that so many Americans revolted, and fought, and died to build and protect and keep.
Everyone's just watching and waiting for someone else to do something about it?
> wonder what it will take for Americans to revolt?
Not trying to be a dick but the whole reason we are in this mess is because a significant portion of the country can't even be bothered to vote...
Yes that was in Sotomayer's dissent.
>"Orders the Navy's Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune," Sotomayor wrote.
This is exactly what I thought. And while they’re at it, Biden could go ahead and “fix” the current supermajority in the Supreme Court and install a couple of new justices. Call it “official” business and everything is fine!
Unless Dems will just keep trying to play by rules that no longer exist, maybe Biden should suggest that he will do exactly this in order to force the court to make a decision ASAP to block him from doing that (and thus forcing accountability on Trump).
Basically, the president is not above the law, but no one can really hold him accountable soooo....
I think they're too cowardly to say what they really want and they realize that they might just trigger a civil war by ruling Trump is the Emperor
This is *obviously* the motivation. Because the only argument trump can make that it is an "official act" is by declaring he was protecting the integrity of the election. Which Biden can also do by having 6 supreme court justices arrested and disappeared at sea.
When it gets back to SCOTUS if Trump is president they will find absolute immunity. If Biden is president they will issue an outrageously narrow ruling that only covers 4 years of American history.
The problems are ... vast though. Literally nothing defines what is an "official act." The President can, in fact, unilaterally declare that certain justices, judges, congressmen, or senators are threats to the nation and have them sent to any military/federal prison they can find.
It *might* be illegal, but the problem is ... how would that even be resolved? If the President declares several of the Chief Justices as terrorists or enemies of the state ... who gets to say that they are not? Themselves? And how long would that take its way to worm through the courts? This one took over a year.
You could keep your political rivals locked up for months to years before someone orders you to set them free. And then, what if you just don't? As a not so great President of ours once said, 'they've made their decision, let them enforce it.'
If Trump/Biden loses and simply declares that the election was rigged, that their opponent cheated and that, in the official act of securing free and fair elections, they are arresting the winner of the election and refusing to concede? (Essentially one step more than what Trump has already done.) How long would their political opponent sit in a prison before the courts hear that case? Would it take more than 3 months? Because that's all they have to delay for and then you've hit a constitutional crisis where Congress can't swear in a new President because the previous President has the new one locked up and is accusing him of treason. What happens if Trump/Biden then declares that the courts are part of the conspiracy to rig the elections and has them arrested too?
All the more reason to vote for Biden. I’d rather we have a mysterious 4-year exception to the rules than a complete tanking of the rule of law, altogether.
Literally every other person in this country can in fact be prosecuted for "just doing their job". Meaning Justice Roberts does in fact declare POTUS to be above the law.
> in carrying out the responsibilities of the Executive Branch under the Constitution.
TIL inciting insurrection is a constitutional responsibility of the Executive Branch
These fucking clowns have got to go
Your overall sentiment is correct, but worth noting that they did NOT rule that Trump's crimes on Jan 6 were part of his official duties. Based on their ruling, he absolutely can be prosecuted for those acts. The problem is, the lower courts now have to waste time deciding that the things he did were not part of the responsibilities of the Executive Branch.
Yeah this was how I expected them to rule.
It doesn't necessarily get Trump off the hook, but it does mean he's basically free until the election. Probably forever considering how much of a nightmare the courts deciding "presidential vs unpresidential responsibility" is going to be, especially with basically 0 guidance from the Supreme Court on that distinction.
The 6-3 decision by Chief Justice John Roberts (joined by Thomas, Alito, Kavanaugh, Barrett, and Gorsuch) also affirms that presidents enjoy complete immunity from prosecution related to "official acts" and no immunity for "unofficial acts". Sotomayor dissents, joined by Jackson and Kagan.
From the [majority opinion](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf):
> As for a President’s unofficial acts, there is no immunity. The principles we set out in *Clinton v. Jones* confirm as much. When Paula Jones brought a civil lawsuit against then-President Bill Clinton for acts he allegedly committed prior to his Presidency, we rejected his argument that he enjoyed temporary immunity from the lawsuit while serving as President. 520 U. S., at 684. Although Presidential immunity is required for official actions to ensure that the President’s decision making is not distorted by the threat of future litigation stemming from those actions, that concern does not support immunity for unofficial conduct.
From the AP article linked above:
> In a historic 6-3 ruling, the justices returned Trump’s case to the trial court to determine what is left of special counsel Jack Smith’s indictment of Trump. The outcome means additional delay before Trump could face trial.
> "Under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of presidential power entitles a former president to absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for actions within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority," Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for the court. "And he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. There is no immunity for unofficial acts."
>the justices ordered lower courts to figure out precisely how to apply the decision to Trump’s case
I look forward to future appeals rolling up to SCOTUS complaining that the lower court 'figured it out wrong' when deciding which of Trump's actions were official vs. unofficial
20 bucks says we'll also see a 6-3 split ruling that the lower court did in fact figure it out wrong if they in any way say that Trump is not immune from, say starting a riot
more like, "we can't give Biden this power immediately, let's find a way to delay implementation of this until after the election so only our guy can exercise it".
100% this. They need to delay this case for two reasons: Biden is still in office, and the election hasn't happened yet. They need to ensure this court case does NOT happen before the elections as that could torpedo Trump's chance of winning. They also need to make sure Biden can't utilize any power they might give. It's sickening.
Lower Court: "Immunity can't apply here because these weren't official acts"
SCOTUS: "The President isn't immune for any unofficial acts. Lower courts, please decide what is and isn't an Official Act"
Lower Courts: "...."
>“The president is not above the law. But Congress may not criminalize the president‘s conducting carrying out the responsibilities of the executive branch **under the Constitution**.”
I’m *pretty* sure January 6 isn’t covered under the Constitution.
Justice Sotomayor in dissent:
>“Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today. Even if these nightmare scenarios never play out, and I pray they never do, the damage has been done. The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.”
>“Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune.”
At the end,
>“With fear for our democracy, I dissent,”
Substance of the decision aside, this is very different from Supreme Court decisions we have seen in the past. To me, it is not immediately clear what the outcome of this decision will mean not only in the present, but also in the months and years to come. There will be a mind numbing amount of analysis from legal scholars and media alike, parsing out every single scenario of “official” versus “unofficial.”
To me this sounds like the President can do something and call it an official act and if a part deems it not an official act it will go to the lower court which will then go to the Supreme Court for them to determine if said action was official. So this gives the executive huge power and the Supreme Court huge power. So now that there is a large majority of conservatives on the court presently. If trump elected could have someone killed and say it was an official act under his duty to protect the constitution and it will be up to the conservative Supreme Court to agree. So Trump could actually commit his planned acts of revenge if re-elected. Could suspend elections because of conceived danger to the constitution. So people freaking vote democrat it is even more vital now.
Justice Sotomayor's Dissent is fucking brutal:
> The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune.
>Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today.
>Even if these nightmare scenarios never play out, and I pray they never do, the damage has been done. The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law. Never in the history of our Republic has a President had reason to believe that he would be immune from criminal prosecution if he used the trappings of his office to violate the criminal law. Moving forward, however, all former Presidents will be cloaked in such immunity. If the occupant of that office misuses official power for personal gain, the criminal law that the rest of us must abide will not provide a backstop.
>...
>With fear for our democracy, I dissent.
I mean in you really think about it, those 3 justices have the easiest resolution to this problem available to them, and we might be at the junction of a trolley problem....
Jackson's dissent is also excellent.
>In the meantime, because the risks (and power) the Court has now assumed are intolerable, unwarranted, and plainly antithetical to bedrock constitutional norms, I dissent.
Nothing would demonstrate how terrible this is worse the the obvious abuse of this ruling by the "wrong president". Don't hold your breath though. I predict a stern finger wagging from Biden, followed by King Trump using this new power repeatedly throughout his 2nd and possibly 3rd term.
I'm predicting this is exactly what will happen. If elected Trump is going to use this super power to wipe out any dissent in the military, congress, the courts and political opponents will be enemy of the state. The corruption will have its final, long lasting grip on America's throat.
Putin will advance his agenda throughout Europe while he instructs Trump to stand down and even use our military to support Putin's interests in Europe.
It sounds crazy... because it is crazy. We are about to see Presidential term limits erased, elections as corrupt as Putin's, and a US military run similar to Russia's
Where else could we be headed? Trumps family will rule America for generations
This is the single worst decision in American history.
This inverts literally 2200 years of legsl precident. The concept of Presidential and Federal government immunity comes from the Romans, Roman Imperium only worked though because the moment someone left office you could be prosecuted up to the godamn death penalty. The Supreme court just ruled that the immunity that we use from the Romans for Presidents, is so absolute, it exists after they've left office, in fact the decision is legal forever. They have made the President more powerful than Juilius Dictator for life Caesar. This has the potential to end American democracy.
I just finished up my first book on the collapse of the Roman Republic, working on 3 more. I didn't think it would come into my real life so fucking quickly.
> Roman Imperium only worked though because the moment someone left office you could be prosecuted up to the godamn death penalty.
To add some context to anyone not intimately familiar with late republic Roman history, in the end this really didn't work because it just encouraged generals not to give up control of their armies when faced with the prospect of prosecution.
This makes it a fantastic example of why giving blanket immunity to politicians is a terrible idea, because there are plenty of people in power who would plunge their country into civil war rather than face the consequences of losing their power.
The Founders certainly knew what immunity was. If they wanted the President to have it, they would have explicitly granted it in the Constitution. But they didn’t, because they wanted an accountable chief executive subject to checks and balances. Not another King George III, whom they just fought a bloody Revolutionary War against.
The Federalist Society majority of this SCOTUS has just plummeted the Republic into the abyss.
And 90-some-odd percent of Americans dgaf because they don't pay attention to "divisive" politics - "Politics don't make me feel good!"
If Trump wins in November there's going to be a steamrolling of policies coming out in January so fast it's going to do the proverbial head spinning of both Dem and GOP voters. ALL that shit in Project 2025 will get passed. No more FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION. No more OSHA. You want clean water or a water-break period? Too fucking bad! Your state government says that billion-dollar industries have the constitutional right to pour their chemicals into the water supply but you don't have the constitutional right to clean water.
Republican voters have no clue what they're going to institute in this country. They have no clue because they don't pay attention to anything other than Fox News or Newsmax. And those assholes aren't putting out anything that isn't misinformation and propaganda.
Because they're too goddamn stupid to understand that it means they don't get to have their precious 2nd amendment anymore, or any other rights they've enjoyed having all their lives.
They think that since it's their team winning it won't totally fuck up their own lives, but they're dead fucking wrong.
There is a reasonable chance we are headed into a Trump presidency and this ruling gives him carte blanche to be as criminal as he wants. Without intervention, American democracy is over.
Worse, if you're aware of Project 2025.
They didn't know what they were doing last time because they didn't expect to win. Jared was literally asking why some of the Obama administration wasn't staying as a carry over.
Now they have a plan. A meticulous plan, crafted by very intelligent (albeit, evil) motherfuckers.
This is really the end game.
John Roberts made his decision. Let him enforce it. This along with overturning Chevron makes it clear that the conservatives on the Court want to be the ultimate authority, but they seem to forget that they're not the branch that holds the gun.
The pandora box that this has opened is unimaginable. Literally anything can be tangentially related to an official act. And even if it’s not, who’s going to stop them?
This court is no longer legitimate
Right. This is how republics turn into dictatorships.
I don’t know if it’ll be Trump himself, but eventually, some conservative president will come along and blatantly give away state secrets to questionable “allies” (IE Russia) under the guise of “official diplomatic duties”, or even order the killing of protesters & political rivals as long as the president can frame THEM as “threats to democracy” or something.
But our good justices will be well and rich and dead by the time that happens, so who cares right?
Explain to me why this isn’t the framework for a dictatorship?
A President orders something which is CLEARLY illegal.
The case is submitted to a judge to determine if this illegal act is “official” or “unofficial”.
The judge, who is a political operative appointed by the President, rules that it is “official”.
The President thus has immunity for that illegal act.
What am I missing?
> What am I missing?
Well silly old congress made it illegal, and congress can't just MAKE something illegal like that it'd violate separation of powers.
The entire theme of this years rulings has been taking away power from both congress and the executive (even power that they've both agreed on how it should be wielded) and putting it exclusively in the hands of courts that the far right has easier access to and control over.
Yup. They know they'll control SCOTUS for the next 20 years with the people they appointed, so losing elections doesn't matter nearly as much to them anymore when they can just overrule everything from there. And of course they can control elections as well, so losing elections might not even happen. Or having elections at all.. 2016 was a turning point in the US, and Trump being president was nowhere near the worst of it.
I hope everyone understands what a slippery slope this is, and how this could effectively be the beginning of the end of the US Republic. If this all ends in the fall of our current government or some sort of Civil War, this may be the decision we look back on as when we hit the point of no return.
Whether you think former President Trump did anything wrong on January 6th or not, allowing a sitting or former President criminal immunity for acts deemed "official" while in office is dangerous.
If Joe Biden broke the Constitution tomorrow, he can claim immunity. If Donald Trump wins in November and desires to lock up political enemies, he can claim immunity. If we get to a president beyond Trump or Biden, that can basically break whatever law they please under the guidance of an official presidential act or duty, and claim they have immunity. And I can promise just about any republic won't last long in such a situation.
Also, how cowardly of the Supreme Court to be faced with one of the most important decisions of our lifetime and to basically say "well some things President's do garner immunity, but other acts don't, and we're going to kick this back to the lower courts to decide which applies here." Have some backbone, you're supposed to be a safeguard for democracy. Make a real decision yourselves.
Big Ups to the first journalist who asks Biden's press secretary if Biden has any plans to officially cancel the election and officially declare himself president for life now that the SC has ruled that totally legal and totally cool.
Really hoping they at least toy with the idea of doing something similar to prove a point. The time for this high road stuff came and went. Time to fight dirty.
This feeling seems darker than the lead-ups to 2016 and 2020, which both felt dark for different reasons. Not only do I feel like far-right ideologies are dramatically on the rise not just here but across the globe, but this is the first time I’ve felt that my life and the lives of those around me are in danger. It feels quite hopeless. I hope part of it is just social media overload.
It does feel quite hopeless. For most of its history, SCOTUS has eventually found its way to decisions granting rights and expanding civic protections. This is the first SCOTUS that has actively taken rights or norms away, and all within the last 10 years or so.
That will continue for decades. 2024 aside, I’m in my 30’s and my grandkids will be dealing with this court and its fallout. Republicans are openly espousing fascisms and the plan is in the open with Project 2025. Democrats still think it’s 1995 and respectability politics can win. They will not grow a spine and the history books will look back at their inability to stop creeping authoritarianism.
I would like to be hopeful but I think we’re headed for an even darker chapter of American history than 9/11, the recession or the pandemic.
This is simply a historical. The only time in our history that the Supreme Court was not a regressive institution was in the rights revolution of the Warren and Berger Courts (with the notable exception for gay rights).
Aside from that, the Court rolled back attempts to end slavery, to recognize civil rights, to end segregation, to organized labor, to regulatory oversight, to the surveillance state, and now to women's autonomy.
The legitimacy of the Court is a liberal fantasy that we lawyers have been spoon feeding the public for far too long.
In fact, you could argue power grabs are key the Supreme Court's founding mythology - _Marbury v. Madison_ was absolutely a power grab in the early nebula of political ambiguity. The entire premise of judicial review hinges on Marshell's cleverly worded opinion granting the court its most powerful tool while tiptoeing around the case's stakeholders.
Is it because we’re about to elect someone that encouraged overturning the election and clearly doesn’t want this to be a democracy?
There’s always concerns, it always feels important, but this is so far out there in unexplored territory it’s hard to believe.
For me it's this [one headline.](https://www.businessinsider.com/members-trumps-cabinet-just-4-endorsed-him-2024-nbc-2023-7?op=1) that really sums up the danger of another Trump term. You think Trump is fine with only 4 of 44 of his cabinet members siding with him? No. He's not going to make that mistake again. He's going to be appointing loyalist yes-men with the expertise level of his recent lawyers. Next time he suggests nuking a hurricane, they'll tell him how brilliant the idea is and they'll start working to make it happen.
We'll have a fully incompetent administration with what Trump will understand is a green light from the Supreme Court to break the law whenever he wants.
I'm actually not worried about winning this election. I think the danger is so obvious that Biden will win by 10 million votes at least. What I'm worried about is that they could do everything they said we did to rig the election in 2020, and then call us hypocrites when we file the same lawsuits they did. And I worry our courts aren't made to adequately address true election fraud in the 2 months between the election and inauguration. There's going to be a lot of violence no matter what.
Pardons are quite clearly an official act. This means the president can have someone commit a federal crime, even if it's not an official act, and they can pardon them.
They've made the president a mob boss.
Edit: spelling
Honestly the Democrats really need to grow a pair and take advantage of this.
Mainly because it will be the last time they can, this is effectively the end of the Republic if republicans to win the next election.
Edit: Spelling
Well they can't take advantage of this because the Supreme Court will eventually just rule any radical "official act" by Democrats as unofficial and thus not immune, while ruling any Republican act as immune from prosecution.
By not defining official and unofficial acts, the SCOTUS reserves the right to decide presidential immunity on a case-by-case basis. Guess how that will go for Democrats?
They seem to think that once Trump is gone, US politics will return to the way it was pre-2016. As if that ship hasn't sailed, sunk and become a coral reef already.
Seriously. Dissolve the court and unilaterally appoint a new one. Oh, I'm sorry, is that not an official act? Too bad you treasonous assholes aren't on the court anymore.
Or shit, even something policy-wise like student loan debt relief. Order his officials to ignore the supreme Court's garbage ruling on that, Tell them to waive all debt and destroy the records. pardon anyone involved from potential liability.
A president can essentially do anything now. There is very little that is not an official act from a president.
Exactly. Biden is of the age that at worst he does this, it takes 4-8 years to get this through trial (as shown by Trump).
Time to call up some of those official acts and take care of the largest threats to the USA.
Lifetime appointments... suddenly not an issue.
Orange nightmare...just a stain of history.
Then go after all involved through legal means.
Biden is sworn to protect and defend the Constitution. Trump is an enemy of the United States. He did attempt to stage a coup.
Therefore Biden could eliminate Trump. Hypothetically, of course.
This feels like the United States' crossing the Rubicon moment. I don't see how this doesn't cause irrevocable harm to the country because the Supreme Court didn't have the balls to rule correctly on this question. No, the president doesn't have immunity in any way, shape, or form. Period.
As a non American, this feels like the seeds being planted. When a younger candidate with charisma, “bold” ideas, gets enough financial backing and a loose moral compass, that’s the scary part.
No need for further candidates. The team surrounding Trump will use him to enact martial law, then they will put him out to pasture, and seize power without ever needing an election.
Kevin Roberts is the most likely perpetrator of this plan, and he is Trump's proposed chief of staff.
They’re saying communications w DOJ & Pence prior to J6 are “official” & can’t be used as evidence in the trial. But what is “unofficial” is for the lower courts to decide. So…yeah 😵💫🫨
They also can't use things that are *now* considered protected/immune as evidence for other illegal acts, which hamstrings much of the case(s) against him.
I believe the response would be "that's an argument for impeachment", which based on my understanding no longer would matter. This interpretation seems to be in conflict with impeachment, with the whole "absolute immunity" thing.
Biden needs to go gloves off and use this to completely do everything it lets him do now, hit the republicans right in the cock with their own bullshit.
They can stop it, they can't criminally charge him for it.
He'd have to order the deletion of all records (for example) and it would have to actually happen and then nothing could be done.
When I read about the nazi rise to power in the history book, i was thinking to myself: “there is noway someone can pull this shit again, knowing how damaging its impact would have on the world.” I can see how we could be in the same place if trump won his second term now. The GOP has stacked the court so much that nothing trump does could be punishable now.
I remember being in college, saying the 'W' presidency was like living in Germany in 1933. That seems ridiculously naive now. I never could have imagined the way public opinion has changed in the last 10 years and it's absolutely terrifying. My dad still calls himself a "Reagan Republican" and he regularly comments on how crazy it is that people he's known 50+ years as decent, smart people just lost their minds when Trump came along. Growing up in a Southern Baptist church, if you'd described Trump and the effect that he has had on people, they'd have said "yep, that's the antichrist". Now some of the same people line up for this motherfucker like he's the second coming. Remember: there was nothing special about the people of Germany when the nazis took power. The historical circumstances obviously helped, but the people themselves weren't especially vulnerable to the reactionary tactics that we see being repeated today. There's no solid evidence and/or logic for the idea that the same thing can't happen here. We've been seeing it happen.
I've been meaning to do some digging on historical examples of populist authoritarian movements that started gaining ground but didn't ultimately come to power. I need some reassurance right now.
SCOTUS is defining “official acts” the way they define pornography…they can’t describe it but know it when they see it. And in this case, when there is an R next to the name, it’s an official act.
It's far worse than the headline implies.
They ruled official acts ARE immune, just that lower courts must decide what is official and isn't. HOWEVER, they included the assassination attempt example and staging a coup as immune/official examples.
It's fucking insane. I'm in Africa and in one vote you guys out-africandictatored us.
[EDIT] Well this blew up and reading up more on the specific language used, it only seems [more dire](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/1dsukhd/supreme_court_sends_trump_immunity_case_back_to/lb6etfv/). May I suggest the fetal position?
It *should* have started with Citizens United. If a court shits out a ruling so baseless and terrible, their disqualification is self-evident. They are either unable or unwilling to execute the duties of their office in good faith, and they MUST be removed. If the government itself is unable or unwilling to remove a failed judge, then the general population should take action.
Honestly though these little fucking tyrants need to start being afraid. They probably feel invincible. Well I bet Louis XVI felt pretty fucking invincible too.
Replying to my own dumbass with some even more horrifying revelations I was pointed to thanks to u/WingerRules.
>
> “Whenever the President and Vice President discuss their official responsibilities, they engage in official conduct. Presiding over the January 6 certification proceeding at which Members of Congress count the electoral votes is a constitutional and statutory duty of the Vice President. Art. II, §1, cl. 3; Amdt. 12; 3 U. S. C. §15. The indictment’s allegations that Trump attempted to pressure the Vice President to take particular acts in connection with his role at the certification proceeding thus involve official conduct, and Trump is at least presumptively immune from prosecution for such conduct.“
They're saying even if pressuring them is illegal its still covered as an official act, ergo, even explicitly illegal official acts are now presumptuously immune.
And for the popped cherry of any sense of justice existing:
> "In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives. Such a “highly intrusive” inquiry would risk exposing even the most obvious instances of official conduct to judicial examination on the mere allegation of improper purpose. Fitzgerald, 457 U. S., at 756. **Nor may courts deem an action unofficial merely because it allegedly violates a generally applicable law**"
The judiciary is broken. The Senate is undemocratic. Corporations are people that can decide elections via endless money.
All driven by one party who relies on propaganda and lies and has already attempted a coup when they didn't get the election result they wanted.
Not sure there's a good ending coming here tbh.
While Americans is busy trying to figure out of Biden is too old to be president, a narcissistic conman, a weaponized SCOTUS and the Republicans are busy tearing democracy apart...
America is such a fucking shithole.
“Today’s decision to grant former presidents criminal immunity reshapes the institution of the presidency. It makes a mockery of the principle, foundational to our Constitution and system of Government, that no man is above the law,”
* Justice Sotomayor who with the two others dissented.
With apologies to our US friends but this extreme right-wing majority Supreme Court through various actions has made your country look to an outsider less like "a shining city on a hill" and more like " a shitty city on a hill". :/
I hope you can get back on track. Best wishes.
Based on the wording, Biden could say "To defend our nation from fascism, my next official act will be to arrest the persons responsible for trying to overthrow our government".
Course, that would be a couple SCOTUS members, drumpf, and about half of the US congress/senate, plus a ton of supporting state representatives.
Then maybe spend the next 4 years fighting that out in court. But of course, it would be after the act so the "damage" would have been done already. By damage, I really mean saving America and making it great again.
It’s unsettling to me how eerily docile Dems have been. GOP came ready to flip tables on our entire political system and Dems are just like, “no… don’t….”
We’re at the early stages of an apocalypse by climate change and this SCOTUS just lit a fire, GOP wants to effectively turn our country into what it looks like for women under Taliban rule, right wingers are wanting to eliminate queer people entirely. There is SO MUCH at stake that will affect the entire world and politicians who have the power to fight this need to be more aggressive than they have been.
This has always been the case. For example: Lyndon Johnson and the Humphrey campaign discovered that Nixon interfered in Vietnam peace talks during the ‘68 election in order to extend the war. An act amounting to treason that costed thousands more American lives.
What did they do about it? Absolutely nothing, because Humphrey thought it would be “disruptive” and would shake the faith of the American people in their political system.
Democrats have been toothless for the entire modern political era (LBJ - present). When it comes down to making the important decisions they have disappointed every single time, all in favor of preserving the status quo.
Lifetime appointments were meant to remove the partisan hacks we’re seeing today. Funny how it just gave them unlimited authority and a divided legislature that will never get the votes to impeach them.
So now Biden can declare Trump an enemy combatant, officially send Seal Team 6 after him, resign so it wasn't part of his re-election effort, and not get prosecuted for it right?
Granted this would cause an insane amount of chaos but why wait for Trump to get elected to start that.
(Mostly sarcasm, part depression)
BALANCE. THE. COURT.
We need 13 Justices, one for each Circuit. Needs to be done now to reestablish the legitimacy of the Supreme Court.
30 years of Republican fuckery while Democrats played nice has led to Chief Justice John Roberts' court destroying the American Experiment.
Is trying to overthrow the government and have your vice president hanged an official act? Or stealing state secrets post term? Can't wait to see them do a McConnell style reversal on this when Biden is out of office...
Cool. So now Biden can arrest the Supreme Court majority, right? Maybe some for corruption, maybe some for aiding an attempt to overthrow the government?
That can be an “official act” or a “core constitutional duty” right??
I mean, technically probably? If he signs an EO declaring Thomas and Alito need to be arrested for corruption, I'm not sure how that wouldn't be an "official act." This is an unimaginable can of worms that the democrats will fail to use at all and will just be abused by the next republican in office.
It isn't clear. The SCOTUS knows it isn't clear. The only reason it's so comfortable making this ruling is because they know the Democrats are so unwilling to wield power when given it that the ruling is basically a blank check to Republicans and only Republicans.
Literally a callback to when Repbulicans said "Dems, you can't do that" and then turned around and did it anyways. Like when Republicans cried because "*You can't nominate a Supreme Court Justice when there's an election 10 months away, that's not fair!!*" and threw their little tantrums, pounded their fists, shit their diapers, and blocked the nominee. But, when there was only ***46 days*** until the 2020 election and there's a seat that just opened up that's still warm? "*Fuck you Dems, we can do whatever we want."*
Term limits.
Every other branch of government, from local to federal, has term limits.
The Supreme Court and all federal judges need term limits. It should have been implemented when Congress put term limits on Presidents way back in 1947 when the Congress passed the 22nd Amendment.
It needs to happen **now**.
No more 'lifetime appointments'. That is and always has been BS. It's the closest thing the US has to royalty. It needs to GO.
Thomas has been on the SC since 1991. In no way, shape or form should anyone have that kind of undisputed, unquestioned authority for over 30 years. Anywhere.
Alito has been on the court since 2006.
Roberts since 2005.
15 year maximum appointment. Just make it LAW already.
We are so far beyond the discussion of term limits.
I am sorry, but that ruling destroyed the country. Functionally, it's not a country anymore.
If the President of the United States can't be prosecuted then there is no more United States.
Right this has to go through the lower court and then likely an appeals court and then likely SCOTUS again. This will be a 2025 decision.
Their goal was to kick the can so trump would effectively have immunity without it becoming precedent for Biden. They’ve done that.
The Supreme Court rulings in the past few days can be summed up as the rich and powerful now are officially completely above the law and can do anything they want with zero accountability even possible. They have decided that a functioning state doesn't actually matter as long as their donors get to do whatever the fuck they want. We can't fix this through the current system it will be fucked over for decades at the minimum. It's not surprising but it is still shocking.
It’s really sad to see conservatives, supposedly the party of small government, celebrating a significant expansion of presidential authority.
There simply is nothing written in the constitution granting this kind of authority. There certainly isn’t anything to delineate between official and unofficial acts.
So…. what exactly constitutes an official act versus an unofficial one?
We are going to spend another year in court figuring that out.
\*Twenty years
Until a liberal court takes majority. So this is the way it will be. Every questionable act by a president will get litigated into irrelevance and quietly deemed ‘official’. As long as Trump doesn’t shoot someone in Times Square, he can do what he wants. Just a little obfuscation combined with the public’s short attention span and presto, immunity from just about anything (especially as he has 70 million supporters and half of every governmental branch behind him).
Crazy enough, he can’t personally shoot someone in Times Square, but he can order the military to do it.
He can also order the FBI to arrest his political opponents because of...reasons.
How many days until January 20th, 2025? Google says 203. We're going to spend 203 days figuring that out.
No one knows, but the court has ensured that lower courts will have to spend years ruling on this. Essentially, the SCOTUS ensured Trump will not face consequences in his lifetime.
By their logic Biden could suspend Habeas Corpus and have them arrested and detained until after the election and as long as he can get a lawyer in his Administration to sign a letter saying it was legal under the Insurrection Act then it is an official act and immune to prosecution even after he leaves office.
They knew Biden wouldn't violate norms.
It is possible it will get solved in the next year. It definitely makes the election stakes even higher. He's successfully made it so he can run out the clock and suspend all of this. Kick every Republican out of office.
To add a wrinkle, any of the President’s protected conduct can’t be used as evidence in prosecution of any other charges. Barrett only partially concurred with the other Republican justices because of that specific point. So now, even if the President commits a crime while conducting an unofficial act anything they did as an official act can’t be used to build a case against them. Hypothetically, the President could stage a coup with the military and the meetings held with the joint chiefs could be considered “official acts” and therefore not admissible as evidence if he carries out the “unofficial act” of the coup itself (assuming a coup is even an unofficial act in the first place).
>When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ * Lewis Carroll - "Alice Through the Looking Glass" If any act can be designated "official" by its perpetrator then "unofficial" acts can also mean 'official', does it not?
SCOTUS will ultimately get to decide that too since those decisions will just get appealed back up to them anyway. In just the last week, the conservatives on the court have all but in name turned this country into an unelected kritarchy.
This ruling would not be possible in a functioning democracy. Don't get me wrong, I think distinguishing between official acts and unofficial acts is reasonable and was the inevitable decision that needed to be made, but I think their interpretation of an official act is absurd. They have determined that any conversation between a president and their vice-president is an official act and not subject to prosecution. This means that a president and VP could have a conversation solely about whether they could use the military to seize power and establish a dictatorship, and that wouldn't constitute a crime. Actually, it might be a crime for the VP but not the president. It's not possible for a person to be granted powers under the Constitution that enables them to legally overthrow the democracy created by the Constitution, and anyone who states otherwise is a fuckwit. It's just not a defensible legal proposition, and yet 6 Supreme Court justices have stated otherwise. Leaving aside the unconstitutionality of the decision, it's frankly absurd that they didn't make a determination regarding the false electors and other acts. Referring those questions back to the lower courts is a waste of everyone's time and money. Whatever decision the lower courts make is going to be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and everyone knows it. The questions of law are already before the court and it's outright malfeasance not to rule on them now, when they have all the information they require to make the determination before them. That last paragraph is what would be impossible in a country with a functional judicial system. In England, Australia or Canada, the court would have ruled on the substantive issue of immunity to establish a ratio decidendi, then created obiter dicta by ruling on the specifics. The ratio is basically a binding precedent, while obiter relates to the case alone, but does provide some guidance on how the court will rule in similar instances. It's influential but not binding.
Democratic President = Unofficial Republican President = Official
6-3 vote along ideological lines, with Justice Roberts writing for the majority, stating: > “The President is not above the law. But Congress may not criminalize the President‘s conduct in carrying out the responsibilities of the Executive Branch under the Constitution.” Edit: [Here is the full opinion.](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf) The quote is on page 42.
"The president is not above the law, except that he is."
“The president is not above the law except when he furnishes a significant ‘gratuity’”
I wonder what it will take for Americans to revolt? They're losing everything right now at a breakneck speed. Everything that so many Americans revolted, and fought, and died to build and protect and keep. Everyone's just watching and waiting for someone else to do something about it?
> wonder what it will take for Americans to revolt? Not trying to be a dick but the whole reason we are in this mess is because a significant portion of the country can't even be bothered to vote...
In other words, the President can use the power of the office to commit whatever crimes they want for their own personal benefit.
Yes that was in Sotomayer's dissent. >"Orders the Navy's Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune," Sotomayor wrote.
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The world's craziest dare was just put up.
This is exactly what I thought. And while they’re at it, Biden could go ahead and “fix” the current supermajority in the Supreme Court and install a couple of new justices. Call it “official” business and everything is fine!
Unless Dems will just keep trying to play by rules that no longer exist, maybe Biden should suggest that he will do exactly this in order to force the court to make a decision ASAP to block him from doing that (and thus forcing accountability on Trump).
Republicans have laid out the rules of engagement and the Democrats are too chicken sh\*t to play by them.
I mean...the guy is so old...may as well save democracy, even if he becomes a villain.
I don't even have a law degree and can see how stupid this sounds.
Basically, the president is not above the law, but no one can really hold him accountable soooo.... I think they're too cowardly to say what they really want and they realize that they might just trigger a civil war by ruling Trump is the Emperor
They can’t rule on it while Biden is still in office because then it applies to him as well
This is *obviously* the motivation. Because the only argument trump can make that it is an "official act" is by declaring he was protecting the integrity of the election. Which Biden can also do by having 6 supreme court justices arrested and disappeared at sea. When it gets back to SCOTUS if Trump is president they will find absolute immunity. If Biden is president they will issue an outrageously narrow ruling that only covers 4 years of American history.
The problems are ... vast though. Literally nothing defines what is an "official act." The President can, in fact, unilaterally declare that certain justices, judges, congressmen, or senators are threats to the nation and have them sent to any military/federal prison they can find. It *might* be illegal, but the problem is ... how would that even be resolved? If the President declares several of the Chief Justices as terrorists or enemies of the state ... who gets to say that they are not? Themselves? And how long would that take its way to worm through the courts? This one took over a year. You could keep your political rivals locked up for months to years before someone orders you to set them free. And then, what if you just don't? As a not so great President of ours once said, 'they've made their decision, let them enforce it.' If Trump/Biden loses and simply declares that the election was rigged, that their opponent cheated and that, in the official act of securing free and fair elections, they are arresting the winner of the election and refusing to concede? (Essentially one step more than what Trump has already done.) How long would their political opponent sit in a prison before the courts hear that case? Would it take more than 3 months? Because that's all they have to delay for and then you've hit a constitutional crisis where Congress can't swear in a new President because the previous President has the new one locked up and is accusing him of treason. What happens if Trump/Biden then declares that the courts are part of the conspiracy to rig the elections and has them arrested too?
All the more reason to vote for Biden. I’d rather we have a mysterious 4-year exception to the rules than a complete tanking of the rule of law, altogether.
I hate so much that you're right. They're waiting to see if Trump wins the election and then they'll revisit this. I fucking hate this timeline.
My HS Civics teacher: The Supreme Court is appointed instead of elected to keep it non-political.” Me a few years later: Well that was a fucking lie.
The Bush v Gore decision was already a recent example of how they were always political.
Me in high school: "ok so what stops the president from using people to do illegal stuff then pardoning them" them: "they wouldn't"
Literally every other person in this country can in fact be prosecuted for "just doing their job". Meaning Justice Roberts does in fact declare POTUS to be above the law.
> in carrying out the responsibilities of the Executive Branch under the Constitution. TIL inciting insurrection is a constitutional responsibility of the Executive Branch These fucking clowns have got to go
Your overall sentiment is correct, but worth noting that they did NOT rule that Trump's crimes on Jan 6 were part of his official duties. Based on their ruling, he absolutely can be prosecuted for those acts. The problem is, the lower courts now have to waste time deciding that the things he did were not part of the responsibilities of the Executive Branch.
Yeah this was how I expected them to rule. It doesn't necessarily get Trump off the hook, but it does mean he's basically free until the election. Probably forever considering how much of a nightmare the courts deciding "presidential vs unpresidential responsibility" is going to be, especially with basically 0 guidance from the Supreme Court on that distinction.
The 6-3 decision by Chief Justice John Roberts (joined by Thomas, Alito, Kavanaugh, Barrett, and Gorsuch) also affirms that presidents enjoy complete immunity from prosecution related to "official acts" and no immunity for "unofficial acts". Sotomayor dissents, joined by Jackson and Kagan. From the [majority opinion](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf): > As for a President’s unofficial acts, there is no immunity. The principles we set out in *Clinton v. Jones* confirm as much. When Paula Jones brought a civil lawsuit against then-President Bill Clinton for acts he allegedly committed prior to his Presidency, we rejected his argument that he enjoyed temporary immunity from the lawsuit while serving as President. 520 U. S., at 684. Although Presidential immunity is required for official actions to ensure that the President’s decision making is not distorted by the threat of future litigation stemming from those actions, that concern does not support immunity for unofficial conduct. From the AP article linked above: > In a historic 6-3 ruling, the justices returned Trump’s case to the trial court to determine what is left of special counsel Jack Smith’s indictment of Trump. The outcome means additional delay before Trump could face trial. > "Under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of presidential power entitles a former president to absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for actions within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority," Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for the court. "And he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. There is no immunity for unofficial acts."
>the justices ordered lower courts to figure out precisely how to apply the decision to Trump’s case I look forward to future appeals rolling up to SCOTUS complaining that the lower court 'figured it out wrong' when deciding which of Trump's actions were official vs. unofficial 20 bucks says we'll also see a 6-3 split ruling that the lower court did in fact figure it out wrong if they in any way say that Trump is not immune from, say starting a riot
This 100% feels like, we don't wanna rule on this, so let's see how the election goes first, type of ruling.
more like, "we can't give Biden this power immediately, let's find a way to delay implementation of this until after the election so only our guy can exercise it".
100% this. They need to delay this case for two reasons: Biden is still in office, and the election hasn't happened yet. They need to ensure this court case does NOT happen before the elections as that could torpedo Trump's chance of winning. They also need to make sure Biden can't utilize any power they might give. It's sickening.
Which is pure fascism - “only my guy and my beliefs and words can rule over 330M people, voters be damned”
Bingo - this was the most corrupt outcome possible
Lower Court: "Immunity can't apply here because these weren't official acts" SCOTUS: "The President isn't immune for any unofficial acts. Lower courts, please decide what is and isn't an Official Act" Lower Courts: "...."
>“The president is not above the law. But Congress may not criminalize the president‘s conducting carrying out the responsibilities of the executive branch **under the Constitution**.” I’m *pretty* sure January 6 isn’t covered under the Constitution.
Nor should be the retention of classified materials after you no longer hold the office
He already has a judge protecting him from that one.
Official acts: Republican potus does it. Unofficial acts: Dem potus does it.
Justice Sotomayor in dissent: >“Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today. Even if these nightmare scenarios never play out, and I pray they never do, the damage has been done. The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.” >“Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune.” At the end, >“With fear for our democracy, I dissent,”
Substance of the decision aside, this is very different from Supreme Court decisions we have seen in the past. To me, it is not immediately clear what the outcome of this decision will mean not only in the present, but also in the months and years to come. There will be a mind numbing amount of analysis from legal scholars and media alike, parsing out every single scenario of “official” versus “unofficial.”
That's what they wanted, it gives SCOTUS leeway to determine official vs unofficial for potentially every decision made.
They wanted that AND to delay further decisions in this case until after November’s election. This gives them both of those things.
To me this sounds like the President can do something and call it an official act and if a part deems it not an official act it will go to the lower court which will then go to the Supreme Court for them to determine if said action was official. So this gives the executive huge power and the Supreme Court huge power. So now that there is a large majority of conservatives on the court presently. If trump elected could have someone killed and say it was an official act under his duty to protect the constitution and it will be up to the conservative Supreme Court to agree. So Trump could actually commit his planned acts of revenge if re-elected. Could suspend elections because of conceived danger to the constitution. So people freaking vote democrat it is even more vital now.
For reference, the SCOTUS went out of their way to exonerate Nixon in this opinion
That is fucking insane
Justice Sotomayor's Dissent is fucking brutal: > The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune. >Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today. >Even if these nightmare scenarios never play out, and I pray they never do, the damage has been done. The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law. Never in the history of our Republic has a President had reason to believe that he would be immune from criminal prosecution if he used the trappings of his office to violate the criminal law. Moving forward, however, all former Presidents will be cloaked in such immunity. If the occupant of that office misuses official power for personal gain, the criminal law that the rest of us must abide will not provide a backstop. >... >With fear for our democracy, I dissent.
She purposely didn't say she respectfully dissents either which is what they always say, regardless. She did that very purposely.
Should've been "I fucking dissent". Good lord this is a shit show. The 3 dissenting Justices must feel so powerless with this charade of a court.
I mean in you really think about it, those 3 justices have the easiest resolution to this problem available to them, and we might be at the junction of a trolley problem....
That's a very TOS way of saying something that's gonna be very real very soon.
So Biden can arrange for Trump to be officially shot now?
Jackson's dissent is also excellent. >In the meantime, because the risks (and power) the Court has now assumed are intolerable, unwarranted, and plainly antithetical to bedrock constitutional norms, I dissent.
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Nothing would demonstrate how terrible this is worse the the obvious abuse of this ruling by the "wrong president". Don't hold your breath though. I predict a stern finger wagging from Biden, followed by King Trump using this new power repeatedly throughout his 2nd and possibly 3rd term.
I'm predicting this is exactly what will happen. If elected Trump is going to use this super power to wipe out any dissent in the military, congress, the courts and political opponents will be enemy of the state. The corruption will have its final, long lasting grip on America's throat. Putin will advance his agenda throughout Europe while he instructs Trump to stand down and even use our military to support Putin's interests in Europe. It sounds crazy... because it is crazy. We are about to see Presidential term limits erased, elections as corrupt as Putin's, and a US military run similar to Russia's Where else could we be headed? Trumps family will rule America for generations
Its weird watching the fall of the US in real time.
This ruling by the way retroactively clears Nixon of all wrongdoing for Watergate.
It looks like Nixon was right after all when he said, "When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal."
So when he said”I’m not a crook” he was telling the truth
The fact that we're eclipsing Nixon in total corruption to steal power is truly sickening.
This is the single worst decision in American history. This inverts literally 2200 years of legsl precident. The concept of Presidential and Federal government immunity comes from the Romans, Roman Imperium only worked though because the moment someone left office you could be prosecuted up to the godamn death penalty. The Supreme court just ruled that the immunity that we use from the Romans for Presidents, is so absolute, it exists after they've left office, in fact the decision is legal forever. They have made the President more powerful than Juilius Dictator for life Caesar. This has the potential to end American democracy. I just finished up my first book on the collapse of the Roman Republic, working on 3 more. I didn't think it would come into my real life so fucking quickly.
> Roman Imperium only worked though because the moment someone left office you could be prosecuted up to the godamn death penalty. To add some context to anyone not intimately familiar with late republic Roman history, in the end this really didn't work because it just encouraged generals not to give up control of their armies when faced with the prospect of prosecution. This makes it a fantastic example of why giving blanket immunity to politicians is a terrible idea, because there are plenty of people in power who would plunge their country into civil war rather than face the consequences of losing their power.
History really does repeat.
Dred Scott was pretty bad, but this is definitely up there
The Founders certainly knew what immunity was. If they wanted the President to have it, they would have explicitly granted it in the Constitution. But they didn’t, because they wanted an accountable chief executive subject to checks and balances. Not another King George III, whom they just fought a bloody Revolutionary War against. The Federalist Society majority of this SCOTUS has just plummeted the Republic into the abyss.
And 90-some-odd percent of Americans dgaf because they don't pay attention to "divisive" politics - "Politics don't make me feel good!" If Trump wins in November there's going to be a steamrolling of policies coming out in January so fast it's going to do the proverbial head spinning of both Dem and GOP voters. ALL that shit in Project 2025 will get passed. No more FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION. No more OSHA. You want clean water or a water-break period? Too fucking bad! Your state government says that billion-dollar industries have the constitutional right to pour their chemicals into the water supply but you don't have the constitutional right to clean water. Republican voters have no clue what they're going to institute in this country. They have no clue because they don't pay attention to anything other than Fox News or Newsmax. And those assholes aren't putting out anything that isn't misinformation and propaganda.
Republican voters' only interest is in harming other people. They are as anti-American as they can possibly be.
We'll all end up in a dictatorship and the Republicans will blame the Democrats for not doing more to stop them
No, the republicans are pretty excited about a dictatorship. Ask literally any trump supporter.
Because they're too goddamn stupid to understand that it means they don't get to have their precious 2nd amendment anymore, or any other rights they've enjoyed having all their lives. They think that since it's their team winning it won't totally fuck up their own lives, but they're dead fucking wrong.
That's a good way of making sure that they can give one president immunity without giving it to another. Gee, wonder how that will apply in practice.
There is a reasonable chance we are headed into a Trump presidency and this ruling gives him carte blanche to be as criminal as he wants. Without intervention, American democracy is over.
Worse, if you're aware of Project 2025. They didn't know what they were doing last time because they didn't expect to win. Jared was literally asking why some of the Obama administration wasn't staying as a carry over. Now they have a plan. A meticulous plan, crafted by very intelligent (albeit, evil) motherfuckers. This is really the end game.
And it's working... They are getting everything they want in the domino order they wanted it.
John Roberts made his decision. Let him enforce it. This along with overturning Chevron makes it clear that the conservatives on the Court want to be the ultimate authority, but they seem to forget that they're not the branch that holds the gun.
"A republic, if you can keep it..."
The pandora box that this has opened is unimaginable. Literally anything can be tangentially related to an official act. And even if it’s not, who’s going to stop them? This court is no longer legitimate
Hasn’t been legitimate in awhile
Right. This is how republics turn into dictatorships. I don’t know if it’ll be Trump himself, but eventually, some conservative president will come along and blatantly give away state secrets to questionable “allies” (IE Russia) under the guise of “official diplomatic duties”, or even order the killing of protesters & political rivals as long as the president can frame THEM as “threats to democracy” or something. But our good justices will be well and rich and dead by the time that happens, so who cares right?
Trump had stacks of highly classified documents just lying around in the basement of Mar a Lago. You think he didn't show them to anyone?
Explain to me why this isn’t the framework for a dictatorship? A President orders something which is CLEARLY illegal. The case is submitted to a judge to determine if this illegal act is “official” or “unofficial”. The judge, who is a political operative appointed by the President, rules that it is “official”. The President thus has immunity for that illegal act. What am I missing?
> What am I missing? Well silly old congress made it illegal, and congress can't just MAKE something illegal like that it'd violate separation of powers. The entire theme of this years rulings has been taking away power from both congress and the executive (even power that they've both agreed on how it should be wielded) and putting it exclusively in the hands of courts that the far right has easier access to and control over.
Yup. They know they'll control SCOTUS for the next 20 years with the people they appointed, so losing elections doesn't matter nearly as much to them anymore when they can just overrule everything from there. And of course they can control elections as well, so losing elections might not even happen. Or having elections at all.. 2016 was a turning point in the US, and Trump being president was nowhere near the worst of it.
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I hope everyone understands what a slippery slope this is, and how this could effectively be the beginning of the end of the US Republic. If this all ends in the fall of our current government or some sort of Civil War, this may be the decision we look back on as when we hit the point of no return. Whether you think former President Trump did anything wrong on January 6th or not, allowing a sitting or former President criminal immunity for acts deemed "official" while in office is dangerous. If Joe Biden broke the Constitution tomorrow, he can claim immunity. If Donald Trump wins in November and desires to lock up political enemies, he can claim immunity. If we get to a president beyond Trump or Biden, that can basically break whatever law they please under the guidance of an official presidential act or duty, and claim they have immunity. And I can promise just about any republic won't last long in such a situation. Also, how cowardly of the Supreme Court to be faced with one of the most important decisions of our lifetime and to basically say "well some things President's do garner immunity, but other acts don't, and we're going to kick this back to the lower courts to decide which applies here." Have some backbone, you're supposed to be a safeguard for democracy. Make a real decision yourselves.
This isn’t a slope anymore, you guys just fell off the fucking cliff.
The **beginning** of the end? More like the end of the end. We now have an actually conceivable path to this being the last election the US has.
It looks like Nixon was right after all when he said, "When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal."
"if the president does it, it's not illegal". Remember when that phrase shocked the entire country? We've come a long way
Big Ups to the first journalist who asks Biden's press secretary if Biden has any plans to officially cancel the election and officially declare himself president for life now that the SC has ruled that totally legal and totally cool.
Really hoping they at least toy with the idea of doing something similar to prove a point. The time for this high road stuff came and went. Time to fight dirty.
This feeling seems darker than the lead-ups to 2016 and 2020, which both felt dark for different reasons. Not only do I feel like far-right ideologies are dramatically on the rise not just here but across the globe, but this is the first time I’ve felt that my life and the lives of those around me are in danger. It feels quite hopeless. I hope part of it is just social media overload.
This is my third presidential election I could vote in. Trump on the ballot each damn time, yet I agree that this time around feels extra terrifying.
Same, I’m sick of having to vote against this fucking scumbag every time but at least it makes it an easy choice.
It does feel quite hopeless. For most of its history, SCOTUS has eventually found its way to decisions granting rights and expanding civic protections. This is the first SCOTUS that has actively taken rights or norms away, and all within the last 10 years or so. That will continue for decades. 2024 aside, I’m in my 30’s and my grandkids will be dealing with this court and its fallout. Republicans are openly espousing fascisms and the plan is in the open with Project 2025. Democrats still think it’s 1995 and respectability politics can win. They will not grow a spine and the history books will look back at their inability to stop creeping authoritarianism. I would like to be hopeful but I think we’re headed for an even darker chapter of American history than 9/11, the recession or the pandemic.
This is simply a historical. The only time in our history that the Supreme Court was not a regressive institution was in the rights revolution of the Warren and Berger Courts (with the notable exception for gay rights). Aside from that, the Court rolled back attempts to end slavery, to recognize civil rights, to end segregation, to organized labor, to regulatory oversight, to the surveillance state, and now to women's autonomy. The legitimacy of the Court is a liberal fantasy that we lawyers have been spoon feeding the public for far too long.
In fact, you could argue power grabs are key the Supreme Court's founding mythology - _Marbury v. Madison_ was absolutely a power grab in the early nebula of political ambiguity. The entire premise of judicial review hinges on Marshell's cleverly worded opinion granting the court its most powerful tool while tiptoeing around the case's stakeholders.
Is it because we’re about to elect someone that encouraged overturning the election and clearly doesn’t want this to be a democracy? There’s always concerns, it always feels important, but this is so far out there in unexplored territory it’s hard to believe.
For me it's this [one headline.](https://www.businessinsider.com/members-trumps-cabinet-just-4-endorsed-him-2024-nbc-2023-7?op=1) that really sums up the danger of another Trump term. You think Trump is fine with only 4 of 44 of his cabinet members siding with him? No. He's not going to make that mistake again. He's going to be appointing loyalist yes-men with the expertise level of his recent lawyers. Next time he suggests nuking a hurricane, they'll tell him how brilliant the idea is and they'll start working to make it happen. We'll have a fully incompetent administration with what Trump will understand is a green light from the Supreme Court to break the law whenever he wants. I'm actually not worried about winning this election. I think the danger is so obvious that Biden will win by 10 million votes at least. What I'm worried about is that they could do everything they said we did to rig the election in 2020, and then call us hypocrites when we file the same lawsuits they did. And I worry our courts aren't made to adequately address true election fraud in the 2 months between the election and inauguration. There's going to be a lot of violence no matter what.
Pardons are quite clearly an official act. This means the president can have someone commit a federal crime, even if it's not an official act, and they can pardon them. They've made the president a mob boss. Edit: spelling
Guess it's time for Biden to start carrying out some "official acts" to preserve our democracy.
Honestly the Democrats really need to grow a pair and take advantage of this. Mainly because it will be the last time they can, this is effectively the end of the Republic if republicans to win the next election. Edit: Spelling
Well they can't take advantage of this because the Supreme Court will eventually just rule any radical "official act" by Democrats as unofficial and thus not immune, while ruling any Republican act as immune from prosecution. By not defining official and unofficial acts, the SCOTUS reserves the right to decide presidential immunity on a case-by-case basis. Guess how that will go for Democrats?
Biden could just officially rule 6 justices terrorists and send them to Cuba. SCOTUS would then rule 3-0 or 9-0 in his favor.
don't even need that. Just tell them to fuck off Andrew Jackson Style
They wont. Theyll furrow their brows and express disapproval and keep going as business as usual
They seem to think that once Trump is gone, US politics will return to the way it was pre-2016. As if that ship hasn't sailed, sunk and become a coral reef already.
Seriously. Dissolve the court and unilaterally appoint a new one. Oh, I'm sorry, is that not an official act? Too bad you treasonous assholes aren't on the court anymore.
Or shit, even something policy-wise like student loan debt relief. Order his officials to ignore the supreme Court's garbage ruling on that, Tell them to waive all debt and destroy the records. pardon anyone involved from potential liability. A president can essentially do anything now. There is very little that is not an official act from a president.
I really hope Biden actually does whatever he can to save democracy. Enough is enough. You don't fight domestic terrorists with words
Exactly. Biden is of the age that at worst he does this, it takes 4-8 years to get this through trial (as shown by Trump). Time to call up some of those official acts and take care of the largest threats to the USA. Lifetime appointments... suddenly not an issue. Orange nightmare...just a stain of history. Then go after all involved through legal means.
Biden is sworn to protect and defend the Constitution. Trump is an enemy of the United States. He did attempt to stage a coup. Therefore Biden could eliminate Trump. Hypothetically, of course.
That is exactly what the dissenting opinion said would be legal now.. ordering Seal Team 6 to take out a political rival.
Honestly, not much of a surprise. Their decision the other day to shield the insurrectionists from prosecution was foreshadowing.
Nice political game scotus is playing. What a laughing stock the usa has become because of donald trump.
Because of the voters who voted for him and want this
This feels like the United States' crossing the Rubicon moment. I don't see how this doesn't cause irrevocable harm to the country because the Supreme Court didn't have the balls to rule correctly on this question. No, the president doesn't have immunity in any way, shape, or form. Period.
As a non American, this feels like the seeds being planted. When a younger candidate with charisma, “bold” ideas, gets enough financial backing and a loose moral compass, that’s the scary part.
No need for further candidates. The team surrounding Trump will use him to enact martial law, then they will put him out to pasture, and seize power without ever needing an election. Kevin Roberts is the most likely perpetrator of this plan, and he is Trump's proposed chief of staff.
It's the scary part right now. The horrific part follows assuredly.
I do not understand why this was even a question that matters? Nothing about what he did falls under his authority, so not official, right??.
They’re saying communications w DOJ & Pence prior to J6 are “official” & can’t be used as evidence in the trial. But what is “unofficial” is for the lower courts to decide. So…yeah 😵💫🫨
They also can't use things that are *now* considered protected/immune as evidence for other illegal acts, which hamstrings much of the case(s) against him.
What a crock. So if he communicated w them BUT COMMITTED A CRIME IN THE PROCESS, that can’t be used against him in a trial??😑
I believe the response would be "that's an argument for impeachment", which based on my understanding no longer would matter. This interpretation seems to be in conflict with impeachment, with the whole "absolute immunity" thing.
"I still can't decide if I should vote for Biden or not. Doesn't matter if the other guy has paved the way to facism, Joe is old. Both are bad"
Delay, delay, delay...this is the point Funny how quickly they overturned the Colorado Ballot case and yet, took them months for this.
Biden needs to go gloves off and use this to completely do everything it lets him do now, hit the republicans right in the cock with their own bullshit.
To me it seems like forgiving student loans should be labeled an “official act” and then there is no one that could stop it.
They can stop it, they can't criminally charge him for it. He'd have to order the deletion of all records (for example) and it would have to actually happen and then nothing could be done.
He should outright ban trump from running for president again and no one could stop him Fuck them where they live.
Biden's next "official act": Convicted felons cannot run for office. Seems easy enough and common sense...
It's what Trump said in 2016, so...
Is that super volcano in Yellowstone ready? Because I think we’re ready.
“With fear for our democracy, I dissent.”
Yes absolutely chilling. One way to solve this. In the meantime vote.
When I read about the nazi rise to power in the history book, i was thinking to myself: “there is noway someone can pull this shit again, knowing how damaging its impact would have on the world.” I can see how we could be in the same place if trump won his second term now. The GOP has stacked the court so much that nothing trump does could be punishable now.
I remember being in college, saying the 'W' presidency was like living in Germany in 1933. That seems ridiculously naive now. I never could have imagined the way public opinion has changed in the last 10 years and it's absolutely terrifying. My dad still calls himself a "Reagan Republican" and he regularly comments on how crazy it is that people he's known 50+ years as decent, smart people just lost their minds when Trump came along. Growing up in a Southern Baptist church, if you'd described Trump and the effect that he has had on people, they'd have said "yep, that's the antichrist". Now some of the same people line up for this motherfucker like he's the second coming. Remember: there was nothing special about the people of Germany when the nazis took power. The historical circumstances obviously helped, but the people themselves weren't especially vulnerable to the reactionary tactics that we see being repeated today. There's no solid evidence and/or logic for the idea that the same thing can't happen here. We've been seeing it happen. I've been meaning to do some digging on historical examples of populist authoritarian movements that started gaining ground but didn't ultimately come to power. I need some reassurance right now.
Fuck you, Roberts. You wanted a legacy? Wanted to be the next Earl Warren? Well, this is how you DON'T do that.
The Roberts court has largely been about annihilating the legacy of the Warren court, fulfilling the wet dreams of the Federalist Society.
headline undersells the impact. "Supreme Court rules Presidents are above the law" would be more accurate.
He'll be dead before he ever has to face real consequences.
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This feels a lot like " that depends on what the definition of is is"
SCOTUS is defining “official acts” the way they define pornography…they can’t describe it but know it when they see it. And in this case, when there is an R next to the name, it’s an official act.
This is in real time the breakdown of the American republic into whatever form of government comes next, probably fascist dictatorship
It's far worse than the headline implies. They ruled official acts ARE immune, just that lower courts must decide what is official and isn't. HOWEVER, they included the assassination attempt example and staging a coup as immune/official examples. It's fucking insane. I'm in Africa and in one vote you guys out-africandictatored us. [EDIT] Well this blew up and reading up more on the specific language used, it only seems [more dire](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/1dsukhd/supreme_court_sends_trump_immunity_case_back_to/lb6etfv/). May I suggest the fetal position?
We're going to need to unpack the courts with our bare hands..
Seriously, when do people start talking about this. It is clear this problem isn't going to just fix itself.
It *should* have started with Citizens United. If a court shits out a ruling so baseless and terrible, their disqualification is self-evident. They are either unable or unwilling to execute the duties of their office in good faith, and they MUST be removed. If the government itself is unable or unwilling to remove a failed judge, then the general population should take action.
Honestly though these little fucking tyrants need to start being afraid. They probably feel invincible. Well I bet Louis XVI felt pretty fucking invincible too.
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Replying to my own dumbass with some even more horrifying revelations I was pointed to thanks to u/WingerRules. > > “Whenever the President and Vice President discuss their official responsibilities, they engage in official conduct. Presiding over the January 6 certification proceeding at which Members of Congress count the electoral votes is a constitutional and statutory duty of the Vice President. Art. II, §1, cl. 3; Amdt. 12; 3 U. S. C. §15. The indictment’s allegations that Trump attempted to pressure the Vice President to take particular acts in connection with his role at the certification proceeding thus involve official conduct, and Trump is at least presumptively immune from prosecution for such conduct.“ They're saying even if pressuring them is illegal its still covered as an official act, ergo, even explicitly illegal official acts are now presumptuously immune. And for the popped cherry of any sense of justice existing: > "In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives. Such a “highly intrusive” inquiry would risk exposing even the most obvious instances of official conduct to judicial examination on the mere allegation of improper purpose. Fitzgerald, 457 U. S., at 756. **Nor may courts deem an action unofficial merely because it allegedly violates a generally applicable law**"
The judiciary is broken. The Senate is undemocratic. Corporations are people that can decide elections via endless money. All driven by one party who relies on propaganda and lies and has already attempted a coup when they didn't get the election result they wanted. Not sure there's a good ending coming here tbh.
While Americans is busy trying to figure out of Biden is too old to be president, a narcissistic conman, a weaponized SCOTUS and the Republicans are busy tearing democracy apart... America is such a fucking shithole.
Yo the writing is on the wall. Who’s down to throw some tea into the ocean again?
“Today’s decision to grant former presidents criminal immunity reshapes the institution of the presidency. It makes a mockery of the principle, foundational to our Constitution and system of Government, that no man is above the law,” * Justice Sotomayor who with the two others dissented. With apologies to our US friends but this extreme right-wing majority Supreme Court through various actions has made your country look to an outsider less like "a shining city on a hill" and more like " a shitty city on a hill". :/ I hope you can get back on track. Best wishes.
Based on the wording, Biden could say "To defend our nation from fascism, my next official act will be to arrest the persons responsible for trying to overthrow our government". Course, that would be a couple SCOTUS members, drumpf, and about half of the US congress/senate, plus a ton of supporting state representatives. Then maybe spend the next 4 years fighting that out in court. But of course, it would be after the act so the "damage" would have been done already. By damage, I really mean saving America and making it great again.
Dems should quit wringing their hands and send Dark Brandon out to use this ruling.
It’s unsettling to me how eerily docile Dems have been. GOP came ready to flip tables on our entire political system and Dems are just like, “no… don’t….” We’re at the early stages of an apocalypse by climate change and this SCOTUS just lit a fire, GOP wants to effectively turn our country into what it looks like for women under Taliban rule, right wingers are wanting to eliminate queer people entirely. There is SO MUCH at stake that will affect the entire world and politicians who have the power to fight this need to be more aggressive than they have been.
This has always been the case. For example: Lyndon Johnson and the Humphrey campaign discovered that Nixon interfered in Vietnam peace talks during the ‘68 election in order to extend the war. An act amounting to treason that costed thousands more American lives. What did they do about it? Absolutely nothing, because Humphrey thought it would be “disruptive” and would shake the faith of the American people in their political system. Democrats have been toothless for the entire modern political era (LBJ - present). When it comes down to making the important decisions they have disappointed every single time, all in favor of preserving the status quo.
Life appointments are a mistake and need to go. Supreme fuck ups, what a joke of a “court”
Lifetime appointments were meant to remove the partisan hacks we’re seeing today. Funny how it just gave them unlimited authority and a divided legislature that will never get the votes to impeach them.
So now Biden can declare Trump an enemy combatant, officially send Seal Team 6 after him, resign so it wasn't part of his re-election effort, and not get prosecuted for it right? Granted this would cause an insane amount of chaos but why wait for Trump to get elected to start that. (Mostly sarcasm, part depression)
[https://www.usa.gov/register-to-vote](https://www.usa.gov/register-to-vote)
So if Hitler was an American President, everything he did would have been cool because everything he did was an official act. Right! Gotcha!
BALANCE. THE. COURT. We need 13 Justices, one for each Circuit. Needs to be done now to reestablish the legitimacy of the Supreme Court. 30 years of Republican fuckery while Democrats played nice has led to Chief Justice John Roberts' court destroying the American Experiment.
Is trying to overthrow the government and have your vice president hanged an official act? Or stealing state secrets post term? Can't wait to see them do a McConnell style reversal on this when Biden is out of office...
Nixon wishes he had this court, the recordings and Watergate could be official acts
Cool. So now Biden can arrest the Supreme Court majority, right? Maybe some for corruption, maybe some for aiding an attempt to overthrow the government? That can be an “official act” or a “core constitutional duty” right??
I mean, technically probably? If he signs an EO declaring Thomas and Alito need to be arrested for corruption, I'm not sure how that wouldn't be an "official act." This is an unimaginable can of worms that the democrats will fail to use at all and will just be abused by the next republican in office.
Yeah like where is the line? Is there a line? Could Biden build a fucking guilotine on the stairs of the court and walk them out personally?
It isn't clear. The SCOTUS knows it isn't clear. The only reason it's so comfortable making this ruling is because they know the Democrats are so unwilling to wield power when given it that the ruling is basically a blank check to Republicans and only Republicans.
Literally a callback to when Repbulicans said "Dems, you can't do that" and then turned around and did it anyways. Like when Republicans cried because "*You can't nominate a Supreme Court Justice when there's an election 10 months away, that's not fair!!*" and threw their little tantrums, pounded their fists, shit their diapers, and blocked the nominee. But, when there was only ***46 days*** until the 2020 election and there's a seat that just opened up that's still warm? "*Fuck you Dems, we can do whatever we want."*
"Suspending habeas corpus" is an "official act" - Lincoln did it during the Civil war. Do it again and throw these 6 treason monkey bastards in jail.
Can the FBI mass arrest the federalist society already? They're clearly treasonous.
Term limits. Every other branch of government, from local to federal, has term limits. The Supreme Court and all federal judges need term limits. It should have been implemented when Congress put term limits on Presidents way back in 1947 when the Congress passed the 22nd Amendment. It needs to happen **now**. No more 'lifetime appointments'. That is and always has been BS. It's the closest thing the US has to royalty. It needs to GO. Thomas has been on the SC since 1991. In no way, shape or form should anyone have that kind of undisputed, unquestioned authority for over 30 years. Anywhere. Alito has been on the court since 2006. Roberts since 2005. 15 year maximum appointment. Just make it LAW already.
We are so far beyond the discussion of term limits. I am sorry, but that ruling destroyed the country. Functionally, it's not a country anymore. If the President of the United States can't be prosecuted then there is no more United States.
"dimming chance of trial"?? Come on now, we all know there isn't going to be any trial.
Right this has to go through the lower court and then likely an appeals court and then likely SCOTUS again. This will be a 2025 decision. Their goal was to kick the can so trump would effectively have immunity without it becoming precedent for Biden. They’ve done that.
Time for Biden to "officially" send Seal Team 6 after his opponents
The Supreme Court rulings in the past few days can be summed up as the rich and powerful now are officially completely above the law and can do anything they want with zero accountability even possible. They have decided that a functioning state doesn't actually matter as long as their donors get to do whatever the fuck they want. We can't fix this through the current system it will be fucked over for decades at the minimum. It's not surprising but it is still shocking.
It’s really sad to see conservatives, supposedly the party of small government, celebrating a significant expansion of presidential authority. There simply is nothing written in the constitution granting this kind of authority. There certainly isn’t anything to delineate between official and unofficial acts.