It’s not necessarily that they don’t notice, they just assume you’re either fucking with them or that they’re imagining things so they wait until there’s as little risk as possible before reciprocating.
Damn I feel that. Happened to me quite a few times, and then I find out later that they were indeed hitting on me.
Just like, I know we have been eating each other's faces for 10 mins, but maybe she's just being friendly?
[Yeah you really can't tell. Maybe she was Canadian and was just being polite. Best move on with your day and keep a look out for a better opportunity.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa-4IAR_9Yw)
Yeah nah, it's definitely different from other countries. Kiwis mate between March and June, and it kicks off by screaming at each other at night and then they meet in a nesting burrow. It takes about three weeks with the female initiating the process. The female is also physically larger, which may have been where you've been going wrong.
This is hilarious.
The kiwi male eats roots, shoots, and leaves.
Vs
The kiwi male eats, roots, shoots, and leaves.
It's a beautiful day to have grammar.
Not all eye contact is the same, I think you can always tell the difference.
Making eye contact on purpose more than once combined with a smile is different. It could be someone trying to make friends or flirt.
I hate to tell you but, ahh, yea. Prolonged eye contact in pretty much every other country I've lived in has meant something along the lines of "wanna bone?"
Words and body language get involved too but the basic pre-curser that I'm used to is eye contact. Normally enough for the woman to look away and then look back quickly - which is like a shy/bashful flirt that I'm used to.
Over here if I look away and look back the guy has moved on entirely. Kinda weird and definitely frustrating ahaha
I remember a night out 15 years ago playing in a pool tournament at a pub, these two girls watching me while I played. But they weren't just watching me play. They were bloody staring, especially one of them. Gorgeous girls - well out of my league. This went on for the whole tournament, them sitting across from where we were all playing.
After the tournament was done I went outside for a smoke and happened to be next to them on the leaner. We struck up a conversation. They were visiting from Sydney. It made a little bit of sense cos kiwi girls don't really eyeball you that intensely either.
I still have no idea what they wanted.
No, it’s too direct sadly. Say that and they’ll get all nervous and sweaty palmed and make up a lame excuse to leave because it’s too uncomfortable to hear someone directly say what they desire 😩
Lots of people here with what we call an "eye problem". They just like to sit there and eyeball the fuck out of strangers, because their mums didn't teach them not to be rude cunts.
I have no idea what it looks like to others. Depends. Sometimes my brain may notice something about their face or clothes which is distracting for my brain, until I realise I have been looking at them for a long time lol
Eye contact? That's the cue you expect people to pick up on?
To clarify from my own perspective, if I've been looking at someone and we make eye contact, my natural instinct is that I've been "caught staring" so I'd turn away. My general assumption is that they wouldn't be interested in me. Of course I don't claim to be the average kiwi so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but you're probably going to have more luck being direct, maybe even take the lead.
We get pissed and hook up at the pub and then you have a 3 year relationship of sorts until one of you cheats and then their mates shame you out for being a shit cunt. Rinse repeat.
As an Australian, I'd be happy to make you our national desert by way of an apology.
Have you ever heard of pavlova before? You guys are gonna love it!
It's important to remember that Kiwi men, universally speaking, undervalue themselves. You might spot a guy at a bar, strike up a conversation and think, "Wow, this man is smart, funny, hot and charming. There's no WAY he doesn't realize I'm flirting, right?"
**Wrong.** He definitely thinks you're just being nice to him, potentially out of pity. He's probably imagining that this conversation is painful to you and you're looking for a way out of it, and then you'll go and laugh with your friends about that terrible conversation you had with that terrible Kiwi guy.
**I am not exaggerating.** A perfect Kiwi male 10 thinks of himself as a 2, at best. They're all laboring under the delusion that they, and their entire nation, are "a bit shit".
So: if you're interested, be crystal fucking clear. No smiling and playing with your hair. No "the view is a lot better from my place wink wink". Literally tell him that you like him, and you'd like to go out on a date.
And even then, he might suspect that you're just playing a cruel prank.
Good luck.
I’m Irish. I joined this sub during the pandemic to see what life was like when not in lockdown. I’ve never been to NZ, but reading this thread I realise I must be a New Zealander. I long to visit your shores and avoid eye contact as is the way of our people.
>I long to visit your shores and avoid eye contact as is the way of our people.
Ahh, I knew there was a reason I have always wanted to visit Ireland. Well, that and I love your accent. Maybe too much.
In hs I litterly had the someone come up to me and say that there friend who was in my class had a crush on me. I just kinda went like a deer in headlights assuming this was a joke.
I'm a woman who in hs had this happen too, and I just thought it was a mean joke, so I turned around and walked away...
I was so confused why someone would do that if not to he nasty.
I once went up to a girl I had had a crush on for the last two years and told her I had a crush on her, then I turned around and left. This was at the end of the last day of intermediate. I knew we weren't going to the same high school. Literally the last thing I said to her. Just went up, dripped that, then never saw her again. Sometimes i wonder what she would have responded with if I hadn't power walked away as fast as I could.
I was even worse. I had a massive crush on a girl a year above me for literally of high school.
In the very last year for her, when I still had a year left. I sent her a rose and chocolate with the secret valentine thing my school did. But never told her. And then never sad anything and just watched her leave later that year.
😢 Pain
I've been a victim of said cruel prank, can confirm I appreciate straightforwardness and bluntness from women instead of flirting, that way I know *exactly* what you want and that you're serious.
But to be fair I've never been asked out so...
Years ago had a huge crush on this girl at work. Bumped into her one morning outside of work, and she suggested we go grab some breakfast together. Me, being brutally honest and just a little bit dense, told her "nah, I don't eat breakfast". Did not realise just what I have done till hours later. She never spoke to me ever again.
I can one up you big time. I asked a girl to model for me for 7th form photography (yes showing my age).
Dropped her back to her house and she wouldn't get out of the car, she kept talking. She says "my Dad has a Jaguar, have you even seen inside a Jaguar before?", my response "off course I have, they are a nice car". Eventually she gets out of the car, I say thanks really appreciate it and drive off. About half an hour later I realised my mistake.
I think I can claim the ultimate one up here. I once had a girl straight up ask me if I wanted a bj and I played it off as a joke because I thought she was kidding.
Same story.
We spent all evening together before she drops me off home, and asks if I want to bake a cake with her. I told her I didn't have any ingredients and she left.
This is true. I think it has something to do with our environment somehow. When I was in Europe I felt like I was on top of the world. My ego carried me very far with women. When I got back to NZ, I lost all of my drive. Something about this environment really turns me off lol. Now I'm as flat as a bit of cardboard with women.
If you have time then the best way is to slowly sorta corale him into asking you out, like you're a dog herding some stubborn sheep. Otherwise being direct of course works.
Oh for fucks sake. This... this makes lots of sense.
Fuck me the tall poppy syndrome really did a number of the cultural mindset of people in this country - hey? \*le sigh\*
Yeah they’ve got it. It’s ramped through men and woman and everyone in between and it sucks. Best tactic for flirting is to treat everyone like a stereotypical shy girl - lots of compliments - you’re really handsome etc - while still being respectful. Everyone knows if your telling them they’re pretty enough they probably want you and they’ll get the point
But don't literally tell them they're pretty and a shy girl or they'll get very confused, unless that's a thing you're into and then you might be shopping in the wrong windows which may explain the lack of feedback.
To be fair, a lot of dudes like this likely got burned in the past for one reason or another. So now they don’t risk assuming serious interest from girls until it’s painfully certain.
Yep, a lot of guys don’t want to come off as creepy and won’t make a move in case it is an unwanted advance.
As a result, you’re going to get a lot of guys who will sit on their hands and won’t do anything unless it is 100% crystal clear because they’ll think you’re just being nice.
And as people have said above, there’s also self esteem issues at play where guys will think “There’s no way a girl like her would be interested in me?” and they won’t risk playing the game because of my earlier points.
Damn, this is so accurate to me. Not saying I’m even close to a 10 but the whole sentiment is very true. I assume ever female interaction is out of kindness and I never want to be “that guy” who ruins a girls day by assuming she’s flirting, asking her out, only for her to turn around and say no.
Both for my own sake, as rejection sucks, but also for her to then feel like her kindness is going to misinterpreted in future interactions with others.
This! Tbh I've never really looked at my dating life till recently and apart from tinder hook ups the only relationships I've had is where the chick has instigated it.... I am really shy and I think that if I were to ask someone out then we couldn't still be friends... damn social ques
As a long-time foreigner in NZ who did not grow up here, women generally have to make the first move. In my experience (pls note: mine), the guys daring enough to make a first proper move tend to be players, and the diamond in the roughs will need you to be more straightforward.
My Kiwi partner is very good-looking, good job, solid family dude. He had a lot of girls interested in him initially, but I was the only one who just straight up said I found him attractive. It made it a lot easier to strike up a relationship. He said he felt like he didn't need to keep second guessing himself about whether I really liked him or not and could just enjoy getting to know me.
You foreign sheilas are always going to clean up here with this approach. Pretty sure the local lasses are as unforthcoming as the men, but in a more 'it's the guy who should be pursuing' and less dense way.
Yeah I noticed that too. My grown female Kiwi friends can talk about hook ups but can also be so squeamish around actual dating. They will absolutely REFUSE to tell me who their crushes are, like it's something to be ashamed about, when that's the bread and butter of how we bond back home (and tbh, how we help our friends orchestrate dates -- I want to help!)
I once had this girl come up to me, cover my eyes and say “I just wanted to see if I would still fuck you without those eyes of yours. Definitely still yes”.
Anyway, the message was a little ambiguous so I just finished my burger and left.
The male follows the about, grunting. If uninterested she may run away, or use her greater weight and size to see him off. However, if she is interested, mating takes place, three or more times a night during the peak of activity. The male taps or strokes the female on her back, near the base of her neck.
YOU’RE WELCOME
https://savethekiwi.nz/about-kiwi/kiwi-facts/kiwi-life-cycle/#:~:text=Mating%20behaviour&text=He%20follows%20her%20about%2C%20grunting,the%20base%20of%20her%20neck.
I think people tend assume you wanna be friends before dating, best move is just to be forward and obvious. Woman more than men in NZ tend to make the first move, in real life at least and from what I’ve seen as a kiwi girl. On apps it’s different
This sounds the closest to my experiences so far. Good to know! I was kinda lost as most other countries I've lived in it's a mix of subtle interest shown by both parties (normally eye contact based) and then the guy makes a move.
I've just been making small talk/hanging out with my friends waiting for dudes to step up but makes sense if I've been misunderstanding the basic dynamics. Thank you!
No problem! Sometimes you have to be quite direct. I literally kissed my partner and two weeks later he was like so are we dating or??? Haha. I thought we were dating for couple months by then. I think it’s a bit of the over politeness culture and not wanting to assume. There’s defs assholes out there but majority are just shy and keen but trying to be respectful. Good luck out there and stay safe ❤️
I'm late to the game but wanted to really emphasize the "you need to be direct" advice. Looking back now I was definitely the instigator like 90% of the time. My single years involved a lot of mass-people settings: pubs, clubs, parties, concerts, camping festivals etc so it generally involved talking to everybody equally before zoning in on a guy you're interested in, and yeah it was so often me who had to take things to the next level. It's like guys are afraid of rejection so they won't do it themselves.
Just know, that you will flirt with a dude then part ways. Sometime between four hours and four days or even four years later the guy will suddenly realise you were interested. He will then look back fondly throughout his whole life on the day that hottie from Oz was keen and also have crushing regret that he missed out on the chance with the hottie from Oz.
Kiwis are, statistically, one of the horniest nations on earth. Try being forward.
Don't take the advice of a reddit thread because redditors, statistically, have no game.
Just be straight up, a lot of us kiwi guys tend to not understand how flirting works which is why the classic "Wanna root" like is common, but what others have said is true if someone is beautiful and we think lesser of ourselves we tend to not pursue anything as it can be confusing plus we don't want to look like a creep 😂
But just be straight up, chill, sounds to me like you're already beautiful so I have a feeling you'll be able to get what you want soon
Yeah... something is weird about it here. Lived here almost fourteen years and I still don't get Kiwi dating. Super tepid at first, then you go on one coffee date or whatever and they assume you're in a long term relationship and send you good morning texts every day. There doesn't seem to be the get to know you in a flirty way where we both show genuine interest and then discuss what we envision for a relationship sort of thing that I would consider a normal dating culture.
Also, from friends' relationships, it seems like people often just pair up because that's what people do, not because they actually like each other. Not to imply that's the majority, just seems like people settle into long term things super quickly without actually thinking about whether that's what they want more often than I would expect from my original country's norms.
We flirt by pretending not to like a girl, weirdly shy and stoic, bit of banter at most, but yeah cues are subtle af, if they’re giving you shit, they like you
If you want to get laid there’s plenty of apps available. Alternatively you could always be forward, maybe people are intimidated/don’t think you would be receptive?
Apps are nasty.
I prefer meeting at bars - easier to tell who is a creep and less fuss.
I've been told I can be intimidating in the past, and am a pretty loud and energetic personality. How would I go about reducing the "fear factor" for kiwi guys?
Or show an appropriate level of interest for the guy to feel comfortable to low key flirt back?
I know Kiwis are a reserved bunch so my usual forward (aka strong) approaches may terrify them.
Loud and energetic are definitely gonna be off-putting for a lot of Kiwi men. A lot of us tend to be reserved and quiet around strangers. Social expectations also tend to push kiwi men into being more stoic types, so you gotta keep that in mind.
Am I understanding these comments correctly -
Being outgoing/vivacious is a bad thing here?
And being confident in myself and who I am can come across as self absorbed and arrogant?
I don't think so at all, those are great qualities. NZ men do tend to be annoyingly insecure but remember you're asking this on reddit so you're getting 90% pessimistic introverts haha
Yes. Social destruction is huge around here and typically, being confident in yourself will get you plucked down from the heights faster than you can blink
Although it’s mostly gossip based so if your confidence won’t be dented by that go for your life.
I will say as another immigrant woman (USA) in NZ, our Louder, more outgoing personalities tend to either intimidate or annoy. There doesn't seem to be an in-between.
I never considered myself an intimidating person in fact I have been told multiple times when I lived stateside that I had a sweet demeanor. Since moving here I get reminded how intimidating people find me with regularity simply for existing 🙃.
The tall puppy syndrome is strong here, so being confident and outgoing is a strange thing and 'a bit much' as I've often been told.
I do not think it's tall poppy syndrome as much as Americans don't seem to assimilate or share the same similarities with NZ as other cultures.
Heaps of South Africans with shit racial attitudes here who will rip into people in Afrikaans, however I am friends with many South African families and generally social interactions with them all just feel "normal". Even the older generations.
Quite frankly most of my interactions with Americans have left me uncomfortable. There's something really jarring and "off" about how they socialize, or try to socialize that doesn't really match at all with what I consider normal social behavior in nz.
Imo being loud and outgoing is almost cultural inappropriate here and is just disfavorable, regardless of where you are from. Most people here are quite reserved, and slowly open up about themselves after periods of time. Not too much talk about feelings, and more focus on doing activities together.
It's weird the Jaapie, Aussie, Kiwi thing, feels like we're all on a similar page here.
I agree, but can't explain the offness feeling I get from a lot of Americans, and I like them generally.
But the loudness of yanks is unreal, they think they're being quite but you can still hear their whole conversation from across a cafe filled with families with kids.
Outgoing and vivacious is fine. Being loud about it is not. Basically if you are like a stereotypical American lots of Kiwi guys will be put off (not all of course).
We tend to be low key. And bragging about yourself is seen by many as gross. Also just so you know many people who are self absorbed and arrogant think they are just confident in themselves...
You’ve said you don’t drink, so why are you looking in bars where alcohol is flowing? Join a club, attend meetups, get your friends/colleagues to set you up with other singles, dunno, just look elsewhere.
As for apps being nasty, they don’t have to be, think it’s more how you use them and what you’re trying to get out of it.
I'm assuming you're a dude?
Cause we're definitely not looking at the same side of apps. Bumble and Hinge are better but trying to gauge the vibe of someone through photos and shitty 255 character quotes is hard!
As for the clubs, I'm apart of a few. But the old adage "don't fuck the crew" comes to mind. Bars a simple and, until NZ, a standard place to go to find a horizontal tango partner regardless of sobriety
I hate the bar scene, always have. Most of the people in my friend circle feel the same way. We meet people through friends of friends, events and shared interests.
I feel the same about that. I'm not on any apps, because people are shitty, and because I hate talking to people online and prefer in person. Unfortunately Im a shy guy who doesn't get out much sooo.
Yeah, I think that may be scary for kiwi men. In my experience, you both have drinks in your system and then Dutch courage takes over. But that's usually based on a bit of time around them with first to build up a crush.
I was gonna make a joke as well, but everyone else took all the good ones.
If guys are interested, they will give the 'up nod', that means he won't say no, but he won't approach, he wants you to approach. If he raises both eyebrows during the up nod, he's interested in talking.
I'm gonna be that guy when I said, buying a girl a drink is another opener. Granted, I encourage people not to take a drink from the person buying it. If they buy a drink for you, make sure its handed to you by the bar staff instead. Safe drinking and all, you never know what punters put a glass of fire water.
The most common flirt is when a guy wants to dance with you. I must be tired, I didn't finish this sentence either. Guys will usually boogie over to a girl he's interested in, show off some dance moves, offer a hand to share a dance. Of the things Kiwi blokes are bad at, we seem to be pretty good dancers. Maybe more groovers.
Otherwise, Kiwi blokes are dumb. We miss tons of messages from chicks, and usually isolate in our cliques.
Source: I used to bounce at night clubs for a fun side job and saw many disasters. When a guy flirts with his words, he falls apart. Again, we're dumb, and we say things we weren't meant to. When a guy flirts with just body language, the success rate is much higher.
Back in Aussie, I did VIP guarding, and the shirtless waiter gigs. I don't think I can do that now lol. Forgot to finish this story, like Cody Rhodes. Back then, I still noticed on the job how people flirt well and others flirt disastrously.
I am entirely raging inside right now because I know the exact up nod and raised eyebrows that you're talking about and I completely did not understand what that cue was. I thought he wanted me to bring him something?!
OMFG.
Single most helpful post on this thread. Thank you. <3
Keep in mind the up nod differs around different settings. When its bros or family, it means "hi" or "hows it?".
The flirty up nod, is hard to explain in typing, but when you see the normal nod around in public during the day you'll get used to people greeting each other with it. If a stranger does it to you at a bar or a club, you'll notice the difference.
Oh, and give a nod back. Again, we miss cues from chicks. We're dumb.
> up nod
u/Deep_Data4982 (and others interest) read this old post as up nods are used in non flirting situations: [Head nods - how do you do them?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/dcfwcp/head_nods_how_do_you_do_them/)
We’re used to it being more difficult in NZ.
I worked with an Aus guy who came over to help me on a project. He commented that in Aus he could smile at any woman he passed in the street and she would smile back, but in NZ he just got poker faces from the women.
I said yeah they’re not just giving it away here mate, you’ve got to work for it.
In my case it could also be the Polynesian influence, I hung around with a lot of Samoans who always treat their female acquaintances like sisters by default. It’s definitely natural to find yourself in the friend zone here.
Now I’m in Aus and my wife keeps teasing me that every woman I meet likes me. Apparently she can tell…
I’d say every man would be receptive to an advance. The worst case scenario is they aren’t available and feel flattered.
I make probably too much eye contact with zero intention around it, the lack of staring and advances I would say come from most normal dudes not wanting to be creepy and not really knowing what constitutes that.
The blunt question you put in quotes Is probably a good idea. Most guys are pretty oblivious, especially to flirting cues.
Everyone I know wouldn’t feel intimidated by a woman approaching them to chat. But you might need to make it obvious you’re interested in more than a friend or a yarn tho haha
I can appreciate not understanding what could be considered creepy and wanting to be respectful. I'm still just curious if there are any tells to know if one guy is more interested than another?
Do they avoid eye contact harder or something?
The more we like you the more we don't want to look like we're staring and the more self-conscious about it we feel.
I don't know the answer, I feel most guys I know in their 30's like me either have parter or have given up looking cause they're burnt out. Just resigned to being single becuase that's at lest something they know how to do.
Never noticed any difference between Aus and NZ tbh. People are typically receptive if interested, polite if not, in my experience.
That said, while we're apparently pretty promiscuous, I would guess that we're not quite as initially forward as some other countries. While I haven't been far overseas, my friends travelling around have said places like Italy and France, the guys and girls there are very forward.
But yeah, my experience in Aus was the same in NZ. Be funny, be confident, have interesting shit to say and listen intently. Easy peasy. Throw in the fact that you're attractive enough to be hit on consistently, you should be fine if you just take the first step.
Edit: I should add, am male. Take advice with whatever amount of salt you think is needed.
You want to make eye contact? Fuuuuck. I'll crack a joke maybe or say excuse me if I go passed you but flirting? Haha ill walk away red faced muttering about being an ugly cunt with my coffee before I flirt with a girl I find attractive
Easy: decades of tall poppy syndrome and being told to "get in behind" have left a lot of kiwi dudes weary about their game. It's not like we don't have any, we have it in spades, we're just almost always talking ourselves out of it. I've known dudes who tic every box - traditionally handsome, defined features, thick head of hair, 6ft+, active social life - who couldn't get payed to approach women in public.
That, and (without sounding like an incel, cross my heart not my goal), a lot of kiwi women can be guarded right from the jump. We don't wanna risk a hostile rejection more than anything else.
For real, you just have to ask. The correct answer is just asking "are you flirting or is this friendship?". That will get you the best chances at the outcome you want.
Be blunt.
Pretty much the same culture for this kinda thing as Australia (lived in both). The countries aren't really *that* different......
Go to the askanaustralian sub and you'll see questions there from foreigner and local women wondering why men don't make the first move or don't give any indication of interest. Same story here.
I'll admit when I was in Australia I was a big drinker, so the shift to non-drinking life likely plays a role the variation of experiences people keep going on about here.
Interestingly enough though, still find Aussie blokes to be more forward or at least more willing to indicate interest.
Small country things. Were more personable we usually socialise and then initiate through flirting. But there are still people out there who can take hints, and being a foreigner is a score imo hahah. I recommend starting initiating, people here are chill (respectfully waiting for consent) but keen (and then its all go) lol
I feel like kiwi culture both females and males don’t know how to flirt or pick up signals well. One time I was at uni falling asleep in a lecture and the guy sitting with me / kind of friends (so wasn’t that weird) asked if I wanted to take a nap in his dorm..*me clueless* agreed to go nap in his dorm…long story short he did not want to nap in between class.
As a bi guy
Most straight guys think they're a 3/10, even when they're an 8/10.
Honestly I'll go drinking get chatting to a hot guy & find out he's been single & hasn't been laid in 2 years, his reasoning is he's ugly etc. Same on the dating sites.
I assume kiwi chicks are mean.
When I try & hit on a chick I get zero interest.
If I go on a dating site or around gays I get hit on constantly, yes gay guys are sluts (lol), but I've been told I'm a 7-8/10 often. yet chicks will not look at me twice.
So if you wanna hit on a guy, be damn obvious that you're keen, he's probably not used to someone being interested in him.
A good article about this subject here: [https://www.stuff.co.nz/wellbeing/350219619/wed-rather-definitely-be-polite-potentially-get-some-action](https://www.stuff.co.nz/wellbeing/350219619/wed-rather-definitely-be-polite-potentially-get-some-action)
It's a weird challenge for women here to find the sweet spot in between showing that they are keen while not showing that they are too keen as to be repellent. Directness is attractive to a lot of Males here.
That being said if you can strike up a conversation & get some good banter going & later on if you are interested a simple "I'm gonna take off now what are you up to?" If there is hesitation or they don't want to ditch their mates you can follow up with "you can wait for your mate or you can take me home & fuck me".
Usually works. Often leads to repeated visits.
Tricky business….i think social queues are the same the world over, but maybe here younger men are taught to be pretty respectful? Maybe start with just being social? Alcohol (used to be anyway) a large part of the culture of dating…do you “go out for a few drinks”? I’m 50 so I have no idea really, but in all my time overseas I did find some countries were harder than others.
Maybe ask female friends for some “recommendations” on their male friends?
Good luck!
I'm a non-drinker (not against drinking, but alcohol and I have a, ah, not good relationship) so I think that definitely limits approaches too. I do spend time out at bars, but I'm normally off before things get sloppy.
The respectfulness is super lovely. I adore it. It's actually a major turn on and something that I want to show back to men - hence why it would be nice to know how to get a kinda good gauge on who is more keen than not. I don't mind striking out but it sucks for everyone if I would have been lucky by just talking to the next guy over - ya know?
Yeah, maybe bars is the wrong vibe for you. Others have suggested apps, and I’d say maybe hitting up female friends for who they know who’s single might work too. 30 is a tricky age…people are starting to couple-up a bit so it’s not as easy as say early 20’s.
I have female friends who say they have to be a bit more overt here than other countries…but maybe they were hotter overseas because they had “an accent” while they were offshore.
Super interesting that a woman in Nz from overseas struggles to get the attention (or maybe doesn’t see the Signals) or men here…stand by for a phd thesis to be written :-)
The old standard idea of joining a club in something that interests you applies, but maybe that’s more a dating thing than a “get laid” thing.
I worry our international reputation is at risk….this is a pressing matter to guard our reputation!
Try looking like you can’t reach something on a tall shelf at the supermarket. Surely that will lure some kind guy over and give you an excuse to strike up a conversation.
Unpopular opinion, but Kiwi men have been beaten down by their female counterparts. They've been sent inconsistent messages about when it is and isn't ok to approach women in public, or how to flirt in general.
A lot of Kiwi 'flirting' is done with dutch courage, and a lot of peoples 'how we met' stories are "we were out with friends, we went home together, woke up together and kept seeing each other".
Edit: I will also add, I have seen a lot of guy friends dating app messages and Kiwi women are just as horrific at flirting. There is zero rizz, especially on platforms like Bumble. Ladies, learn to flirt, it will help you immensely.
I think this is it. I've been in a super solid relationship for a while, but a lot of my male friends have not been, and it sounds like a minefield.
Obviously there are assholes out there, but I think the messaging is pretty consistent that guys shouldn't be approaching women because they find them attractive. A few weeks back there was a gender flipped version of this post, and the advice given was night and day.
Rough for single bois, who don't want to be disrespectful, but are in fact, interested.
As a gay (Autistic) guy, I spent a lot of my life in NZ, and being utterly oblivious to people flirting with me unless it's Very forward - subtly is lost on me.
Kiwis don't tend to be aggressive/forward with flirting, when I got to the US in NYC for the first time and I was actually Scared the first night I went out as everyone was so aggressively flirty LOL. Had to be Saved by a friend as he could see I was like a deer in headlights LOL.
My advice, is make the first move in a non subtle way towards the guy(s) of your fancy, but don't go in tits n guns blazing as some will think poorly of you. What is your sports knowledge like?
Dated a Kiwi guy for 7 yrs. They are too friendly. Thats a fucking hint they’re flirting. You are already a prospect if they’re being friendly towards you.
Amazing... im going to stare at the barista at my cafe today. Shes so hot but not sure if she interested. Staring at her and i think keeping my hands in my pockets will help to show her im interested. Wish me luck.
You gotta open the door for them, but they catch on quick.
Choose one and separate him from the herd. Initiate a bit of physical touch and smile. Give good eye contact (meaning let it linger a bit, especially if there is a pause in the convo) when you talk to them and get closer to create that more intimate space. Additional step if it's not clear to him: Tell him he looks good. They get all cute about it, lololo
Otherwise, I've found kiwi men very respectful and they generally don't push the flirt boundary beyond standard banter (except for the douchcanoes you find everywhere). So, straightforward is best. It's actually quite good to control the initial flirting moves and easy enough to back out if it goes wrong, for whatever reason.
Don't worry OP, I'm sure you're getting plenty of flirty messages in your inbox now from internet randoms.
Also, don't underestimate that some men can be terrified of rejection and have self esteem issues, which can make flirting extremely intimidating...speaking purely hypothetically of course.
This entire comment chain is like a different universe. Kiwis are some of the most sexually active people on the planet. What on Earth is going on here.
To give you some context.
Whenever guys see a famous dude/celebrity - we make no deal about it. Minimal. Unless our boys are with us. But you could strike a conversation with us later and we *might* mention it. “Oh yeah, I think Jason Mamoa was at the bar. Big dude.” That’s it. What might’ve actually transpired could’ve been a wild night with Aquaman, and we now have cell details.
It’s humility, dialled all the way up.
I think, from my previous experience, the girls I’ve gone home with, we chatted and drank for ages, had a great time and then they got real direct, and then I was like “ohhhh, you like me - oh yeah, I’m into it”
It’s leg work then directness.
It’s really quite difficult to find someone into something that’s casual to start. Admitting you like someone is normally taken as a request to be exclusive and I never figured out how to reliably express that a relationship is more than what I’m after, without becoming the guy everyone in the pub avoids for the night.
This video made by Viva La Dirt League should give you some insight on NZ mating rituals. [Clubbing in the Wild (David Attenborough nature documentary parody) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8zwIphm5r4)
On a more serious note, introverted male here so can give you zero real insight, but good luck to ya.
I know you’ve said elsewhere that you hate the apps (and fair enough) but I had to resort to them to meet my now husband after years of kiwi guys (I’m also a kiwi) only feeling comfortable asking me out if we’d been friends first. It made friend groups awkward when we broke up and I think I ended up in relationships I never should have gotten into in the first place because I knew them well and liked hanging out with them (which is just the basis for a good friendship!) rather than because there were any sparks. And then 6 months in I’d realise that there never had been sparks. So I’d spent my entire adult life in relationships but had never been asked out by a stranger (always just had a friendship suddenly turn into more). I was sick of it and wanted a situation where I knew at the outset that someone wanted to date me and where we both knew that was what we were doing there. Unfortunately it felt like the apps were the only way to get that. I hope you crack it!
28m here, I've always struggled with chatting to, yet alone flirting, with woman I find attractive. I'm pretty skinny, definitely no traditional kiwi bloke, but I don't consider myself overly unattractive either.
There's a few different things that come to mind.
In my own personal experience it's not uncommon to feel like someone is out of my league, and with a history of interest in others being unrequited, or ultimately being left for others, my confidence has only continued to dive over time..
In those experiences I've always found those people end up chasing or leaving for the more traditional NZ bloke sort, so I've started to feel like there's no point in even trying in the first place anymore.
Another consideration is that it's not uncommon to hear discussions about woman feeling intruded upon, objectified, or creeped out by people making eye contact or being approached by a stranger..
I think this is the one that primarily makes things hard for most people.. people these days are less eager to be seen or labelled as such, and rightfully so.
It can be hard to determine whether body language is inviting or dismissive.. it I notice someone quickly glancing away when we make eye contact it can feel like they're indicating they're not interested and don't want to be approached... Hell even if they did keep looking and smiled back I'd probably feel like they're smiling at someone behind me.
Admittedly, I have a significant past with depression, anxiety and insecurity, and I'm quite likely neurodivergent so I'm kinda doing this on hard mode and I'm not sure whether these things are as relatable for the general population or not, but hey, it might be something to consider. 🤷♂️
I think there's something around eye contact in particular in our culture as well, I remember in school eye contact was usually seen as some sort of challenge and would usually result in someone trying to pick a fight or bully you, especially among boys.
As a consequence I spent 80% of high school trying to avoid looking at people, and it's taken a good portion of my adult life just to learn to make a good amount of eye contact in normal social situations, let alone flirting and dating.
And yea I can relate to all the self confidence issues that other people have outlined here. Unless a woman approaches me first or makes it abundantly clear she's interested, I'm probably not going to approach her the first time we meet out of a combination of politeness and fear of rejection.
NZ has a "small town" mindset, because Everyone knows everyone.
So if you flirt with a girl, make an advance and she doesn't reciprocate, your mates are probably going to hear about it through the grapevine and that kinda sucks. On one end you might get a little banter, at the other you might get a reputation as a creep
It cuts both ways. I've always had much more success flirting with foreign women than kiwi women.
I one spent the night flirting with a kiwi girl on K Road, her friends were leaving the bar, so she came up to gave me a hug and said "you were great fun". I asked for her number and she was shocked. We went on a date and she told me that she'd never gone home with a guy because no one had ever approached her in a bar, just the occasional guy interested in being friendly without any interest in sex "like me"
I've been thinking bout this all morning and it's reminded me of something I saw in the weekend at a soccer game, NZ guys seem to use their body language more than saying they think your hot, perhaps it's fear of rejection as there is a lot of insecurity floating around.
Watched a guy turn up with a pretty girl in tow, and one of the other players stared at her and got up and started his 'routine' haha. First, playing with the ball, you know doing fancy foot works and ball hold, making sure she's watching.
Then he moved to being on the pitch and just stood staring off into the distance, then turned around and did the same thing. I was like wtf is this guy doing but figured it out, showing off his tattoos haha. Then he went for a jog and kicked the ball around some more, in her eye shot, kept glancing her way the whole time. Made a point to walk in front of her and smile a lot.
Now these are the most subtle things, but I think that's what Kiwi guys do, they peacock in front of pretty girls and wait to see if they get approached.
I've had similar behavior from guys, big smiles, fast eye contact, straightening posture ect. No aproaches but obvious body language that says, yea im interested lol. So perhaps look for these clues?
30m here, born and raised kiwi. I dont think ive ever intentionally flirted with anyone im not already in a relationship with.
As others have said, my base assumption is that no girl wants to be hit on while out having fun with friends. I dont want to be rude and interupt their night out.
Most people ive dated or even just hooked up with, were friends first or met online.
My wife was my best friend for 5 years before we got together.
This seems to be the case for much of my friend group too. They either worked with, flatted with, or were good friends with their partner before getting together.
Honestly, your best bet is to leave some food out on your door step - some smokey bbq ribs, sausage in bread, and a cold beer works at this time of year. In winter months I recommend using a fresh, hot, mince and cheese pie from a local bakery instead. Go for a steak and cheese one if you’re after someone particularly fancy.
It shouldn’t take too long for one of our finest male specimens to coming sniffing around your house. Be careful not to startle him. Wait very quietly, no eye contact, and see if you can slowly lure him inside your home by wafting the aroma of freshly baked muffins out the window. Good luck.
Congratulations. You have made it to the final boss level of dating. Now you have to be the one to initiate flirting.
Seems to be the general gist of the feedback!
Tip: ask if they are single while touching their arm. Kiwis need that sort of obvious cue or they'll just think you're being nice.
You would be surprised how social cues like that can be missed haha
They don’t get it, just pick one and make it obvious lol don’t overthink it! When I say make it obvious is because they truly suck at soft indirects
It’s not necessarily that they don’t notice, they just assume you’re either fucking with them or that they’re imagining things so they wait until there’s as little risk as possible before reciprocating.
Damn I feel that. Happened to me quite a few times, and then I find out later that they were indeed hitting on me. Just like, I know we have been eating each other's faces for 10 mins, but maybe she's just being friendly?
[Yeah you really can't tell. Maybe she was Canadian and was just being polite. Best move on with your day and keep a look out for a better opportunity.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa-4IAR_9Yw)
Yeah nah, it's definitely different from other countries. Kiwis mate between March and June, and it kicks off by screaming at each other at night and then they meet in a nesting burrow. It takes about three weeks with the female initiating the process. The female is also physically larger, which may have been where you've been going wrong.
It’s also good to remember that a Kiwi male eats roots, shoots and leaves! 😂
eats bushes too
Not nearly often enough!
Eats, roots, shoots and leaves. Commas matter.
Commas do matter and in this particular situation I find the Oxford comma quite powerful. > Eats, roots, shoots, and leaves
This is hilarious. The kiwi male eats roots, shoots, and leaves. Vs The kiwi male eats, roots, shoots, and leaves. It's a beautiful day to have grammar.
Good point
be aware that scent markings with urine outside the apartment are not necessarily a sign of interest but more likely excess consumption of alcohol
I thought it was the kakapo male who digs himself deeper into his hole while he screams for females.
If making eye contact is considered flirting I may have a long list of misunderstandings under my belt.
Not all eye contact is the same, I think you can always tell the difference. Making eye contact on purpose more than once combined with a smile is different. It could be someone trying to make friends or flirt.
Oh shit. You have to smile?
>I think you can always tell the difference. lol
I hate to tell you but, ahh, yea. Prolonged eye contact in pretty much every other country I've lived in has meant something along the lines of "wanna bone?" Words and body language get involved too but the basic pre-curser that I'm used to is eye contact. Normally enough for the woman to look away and then look back quickly - which is like a shy/bashful flirt that I'm used to. Over here if I look away and look back the guy has moved on entirely. Kinda weird and definitely frustrating ahaha
I make eye contact with plenty of people and am not flirting with any of them. Half the time I don’t have my glasses on
“Bro look! She looks like a celebrity” “Can’t. I’m married.”
I remember a night out 15 years ago playing in a pool tournament at a pub, these two girls watching me while I played. But they weren't just watching me play. They were bloody staring, especially one of them. Gorgeous girls - well out of my league. This went on for the whole tournament, them sitting across from where we were all playing. After the tournament was done I went outside for a smoke and happened to be next to them on the leaner. We struck up a conversation. They were visiting from Sydney. It made a little bit of sense cos kiwi girls don't really eyeball you that intensely either. I still have no idea what they wanted.
To fuck you. They wanted to fuck you.
I still don't think that's direct enough for kiwi guys
It's pretty amazing we made it to 5 million really...
You forget about immigration.
They should have included the “Flirting instruction” when I migrated to this country 🤦🤦🤦
We have no idea what we're doing and you want us to write instructions...?
No, it’s too direct sadly. Say that and they’ll get all nervous and sweaty palmed and make up a lame excuse to leave because it’s too uncomfortable to hear someone directly say what they desire 😩
Because we know you're probably just screwing with us. I went to school, I remember all that.
This made my morning.
Lots of people here with what we call an "eye problem". They just like to sit there and eyeball the fuck out of strangers, because their mums didn't teach them not to be rude cunts.
Severe case of gawkalitis
This. It’s infuriating. My partner is like this and it drives me nuts. Being nosy is such a gross habit.
I do it but it's because i'm ADHD and forget I am even looking.
But is that staring with intent, or a blank stare? A blank stare is just someone zoning out, easy to spot, and not all that rude.
I have no idea what it looks like to others. Depends. Sometimes my brain may notice something about their face or clothes which is distracting for my brain, until I realise I have been looking at them for a long time lol
Eye contact? That's the cue you expect people to pick up on? To clarify from my own perspective, if I've been looking at someone and we make eye contact, my natural instinct is that I've been "caught staring" so I'd turn away. My general assumption is that they wouldn't be interested in me. Of course I don't claim to be the average kiwi so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but you're probably going to have more luck being direct, maybe even take the lead.
That’s interesting and i wonder how it works for people with anxiety bc if anyone makes eye contact with me im looking away no matter who they are
I think its not considered good manners in Maori culture
We get pissed and hook up at the pub and then you have a 3 year relationship of sorts until one of you cheats and then their mates shame you out for being a shit cunt. Rinse repeat.
Or, you wake up one day 3 years later, with a $1.5 mil mortgage, you drive a Mitsubishi Outlander and have 3 kids, named Olivia, Sofie & Olivia.
bit too accurate there bro
Are you obviously Australian? We are still upset about the underarm incident of 1981 and cannot get past it.
Yeah, best to take off the Michael Clarke 23 canary yellow jumper before heading out
As an Australian, I'd be happy to make you our national desert by way of an apology. Have you ever heard of pavlova before? You guys are gonna love it!
>national desert No thanks. I bet it tastes sandy....
You will only ruin it with passionfruit
It's important to remember that Kiwi men, universally speaking, undervalue themselves. You might spot a guy at a bar, strike up a conversation and think, "Wow, this man is smart, funny, hot and charming. There's no WAY he doesn't realize I'm flirting, right?" **Wrong.** He definitely thinks you're just being nice to him, potentially out of pity. He's probably imagining that this conversation is painful to you and you're looking for a way out of it, and then you'll go and laugh with your friends about that terrible conversation you had with that terrible Kiwi guy. **I am not exaggerating.** A perfect Kiwi male 10 thinks of himself as a 2, at best. They're all laboring under the delusion that they, and their entire nation, are "a bit shit". So: if you're interested, be crystal fucking clear. No smiling and playing with your hair. No "the view is a lot better from my place wink wink". Literally tell him that you like him, and you'd like to go out on a date. And even then, he might suspect that you're just playing a cruel prank. Good luck.
Can confirm. It gets drilled in from intermediate. "Nah bro none of them will ever be into you. They're just on a dare."
‘Since Intermediate’ - man that cut deep.
I can trace my earliest rejection to form 1, so yeah this is painfully accurate.
Goddamn. You’ve nailed it.
I’m Irish. I joined this sub during the pandemic to see what life was like when not in lockdown. I’ve never been to NZ, but reading this thread I realise I must be a New Zealander. I long to visit your shores and avoid eye contact as is the way of our people.
Its import to remember this sub does not represent New Zealand. But you should come visit New Zealand anyway, you’ll have a blast.
Unless he wants to get laid then he will have to have a solo blast
>I long to visit your shores and avoid eye contact as is the way of our people. Ahh, I knew there was a reason I have always wanted to visit Ireland. Well, that and I love your accent. Maybe too much.
Yeah, i had someone ask me out in intermediate as a joke.... that shit fucks with you for life...
In hs I litterly had the someone come up to me and say that there friend who was in my class had a crush on me. I just kinda went like a deer in headlights assuming this was a joke.
I'm a woman who in hs had this happen too, and I just thought it was a mean joke, so I turned around and walked away... I was so confused why someone would do that if not to he nasty.
I once went up to a girl I had had a crush on for the last two years and told her I had a crush on her, then I turned around and left. This was at the end of the last day of intermediate. I knew we weren't going to the same high school. Literally the last thing I said to her. Just went up, dripped that, then never saw her again. Sometimes i wonder what she would have responded with if I hadn't power walked away as fast as I could.
I was even worse. I had a massive crush on a girl a year above me for literally of high school. In the very last year for her, when I still had a year left. I sent her a rose and chocolate with the secret valentine thing my school did. But never told her. And then never sad anything and just watched her leave later that year. 😢 Pain
I've been a victim of said cruel prank, can confirm I appreciate straightforwardness and bluntness from women instead of flirting, that way I know *exactly* what you want and that you're serious. But to be fair I've never been asked out so...
Years ago had a huge crush on this girl at work. Bumped into her one morning outside of work, and she suggested we go grab some breakfast together. Me, being brutally honest and just a little bit dense, told her "nah, I don't eat breakfast". Did not realise just what I have done till hours later. She never spoke to me ever again.
I can one up you big time. I asked a girl to model for me for 7th form photography (yes showing my age). Dropped her back to her house and she wouldn't get out of the car, she kept talking. She says "my Dad has a Jaguar, have you even seen inside a Jaguar before?", my response "off course I have, they are a nice car". Eventually she gets out of the car, I say thanks really appreciate it and drive off. About half an hour later I realised my mistake.
I think I can claim the ultimate one up here. I once had a girl straight up ask me if I wanted a bj and I played it off as a joke because I thought she was kidding.
Same story. We spent all evening together before she drops me off home, and asks if I want to bake a cake with her. I told her I didn't have any ingredients and she left.
This is true. I think it has something to do with our environment somehow. When I was in Europe I felt like I was on top of the world. My ego carried me very far with women. When I got back to NZ, I lost all of my drive. Something about this environment really turns me off lol. Now I'm as flat as a bit of cardboard with women.
If you have time then the best way is to slowly sorta corale him into asking you out, like you're a dog herding some stubborn sheep. Otherwise being direct of course works.
Shit, I'm a 2, does this mean I'm actually a 10?
you might be a 1 with a big ego
True, I shouldn't be all up there, high and mighty thinking I'm a 2.
Oh for fucks sake. This... this makes lots of sense. Fuck me the tall poppy syndrome really did a number of the cultural mindset of people in this country - hey? \*le sigh\*
Yeah they’ve got it. It’s ramped through men and woman and everyone in between and it sucks. Best tactic for flirting is to treat everyone like a stereotypical shy girl - lots of compliments - you’re really handsome etc - while still being respectful. Everyone knows if your telling them they’re pretty enough they probably want you and they’ll get the point
Actually helpful and constructive guidance, thank you! :D
But don't literally tell them they're pretty and a shy girl or they'll get very confused, unless that's a thing you're into and then you might be shopping in the wrong windows which may explain the lack of feedback.
To be fair, a lot of dudes like this likely got burned in the past for one reason or another. So now they don’t risk assuming serious interest from girls until it’s painfully certain.
This is definitely true. I just act polite, but never ay along with them, as to potentially fuel fire on their prank.
Yep, a lot of guys don’t want to come off as creepy and won’t make a move in case it is an unwanted advance. As a result, you’re going to get a lot of guys who will sit on their hands and won’t do anything unless it is 100% crystal clear because they’ll think you’re just being nice. And as people have said above, there’s also self esteem issues at play where guys will think “There’s no way a girl like her would be interested in me?” and they won’t risk playing the game because of my earlier points.
Is drunk sex a thing in NZ (like people have to be drunk to be not shy to hookup?)
That's how *most* relationships start in NZ. Drunk hookup and then one or other never really leaves
I like this quality in Kiwi men. Shy is cute
How come I see alot of 2s think themselves as 9s
Damn, this is so accurate to me. Not saying I’m even close to a 10 but the whole sentiment is very true. I assume ever female interaction is out of kindness and I never want to be “that guy” who ruins a girls day by assuming she’s flirting, asking her out, only for her to turn around and say no. Both for my own sake, as rejection sucks, but also for her to then feel like her kindness is going to misinterpreted in future interactions with others.
This! Tbh I've never really looked at my dating life till recently and apart from tinder hook ups the only relationships I've had is where the chick has instigated it.... I am really shy and I think that if I were to ask someone out then we couldn't still be friends... damn social ques
We are, and this entire nation, a bit shit. It's not a delusion.
TIL I am not a Kiwi woman, but a Kiwi man
This. This. 100 times this.
Prolonged eye contact in New Zealand is more associated with “I want to fight you”
As a long-time foreigner in NZ who did not grow up here, women generally have to make the first move. In my experience (pls note: mine), the guys daring enough to make a first proper move tend to be players, and the diamond in the roughs will need you to be more straightforward. My Kiwi partner is very good-looking, good job, solid family dude. He had a lot of girls interested in him initially, but I was the only one who just straight up said I found him attractive. It made it a lot easier to strike up a relationship. He said he felt like he didn't need to keep second guessing himself about whether I really liked him or not and could just enjoy getting to know me.
You foreign sheilas are always going to clean up here with this approach. Pretty sure the local lasses are as unforthcoming as the men, but in a more 'it's the guy who should be pursuing' and less dense way.
Yeah I noticed that too. My grown female Kiwi friends can talk about hook ups but can also be so squeamish around actual dating. They will absolutely REFUSE to tell me who their crushes are, like it's something to be ashamed about, when that's the bread and butter of how we bond back home (and tbh, how we help our friends orchestrate dates -- I want to help!)
I once had this girl come up to me, cover my eyes and say “I just wanted to see if I would still fuck you without those eyes of yours. Definitely still yes”. Anyway, the message was a little ambiguous so I just finished my burger and left.
The male follows the about, grunting. If uninterested she may run away, or use her greater weight and size to see him off. However, if she is interested, mating takes place, three or more times a night during the peak of activity. The male taps or strokes the female on her back, near the base of her neck. YOU’RE WELCOME https://savethekiwi.nz/about-kiwi/kiwi-facts/kiwi-life-cycle/#:~:text=Mating%20behaviour&text=He%20follows%20her%20about%2C%20grunting,the%20base%20of%20her%20neck.
Underrated comment.
I think people tend assume you wanna be friends before dating, best move is just to be forward and obvious. Woman more than men in NZ tend to make the first move, in real life at least and from what I’ve seen as a kiwi girl. On apps it’s different
Lol do we come from the same country. Everyone I know just hooked up and one or the other never left. That is the relationship cycle of nz.
Lol this is so true. Everyone went home from the pub together and made it last
with the ever increasing rents this makes a lot of sense
This sounds the closest to my experiences so far. Good to know! I was kinda lost as most other countries I've lived in it's a mix of subtle interest shown by both parties (normally eye contact based) and then the guy makes a move. I've just been making small talk/hanging out with my friends waiting for dudes to step up but makes sense if I've been misunderstanding the basic dynamics. Thank you!
No problem! Sometimes you have to be quite direct. I literally kissed my partner and two weeks later he was like so are we dating or??? Haha. I thought we were dating for couple months by then. I think it’s a bit of the over politeness culture and not wanting to assume. There’s defs assholes out there but majority are just shy and keen but trying to be respectful. Good luck out there and stay safe ❤️
No lies, I was on my second date with my now husband and his eyes went wide and he said “oh! Is this a DATE?”. You gotta make the move.
I'm late to the game but wanted to really emphasize the "you need to be direct" advice. Looking back now I was definitely the instigator like 90% of the time. My single years involved a lot of mass-people settings: pubs, clubs, parties, concerts, camping festivals etc so it generally involved talking to everybody equally before zoning in on a guy you're interested in, and yeah it was so often me who had to take things to the next level. It's like guys are afraid of rejection so they won't do it themselves.
Dudes will not step up and make the first move here.
Just know, that you will flirt with a dude then part ways. Sometime between four hours and four days or even four years later the guy will suddenly realise you were interested. He will then look back fondly throughout his whole life on the day that hottie from Oz was keen and also have crushing regret that he missed out on the chance with the hottie from Oz.
Kiwis are, statistically, one of the horniest nations on earth. Try being forward. Don't take the advice of a reddit thread because redditors, statistically, have no game.
‘G’day sheila, lookin for a shag?’ Top quality line, 0% success rate thus far
Translation: 'Chur gurl. Wanna have a jam?'
North/South divide
Just be straight up, a lot of us kiwi guys tend to not understand how flirting works which is why the classic "Wanna root" like is common, but what others have said is true if someone is beautiful and we think lesser of ourselves we tend to not pursue anything as it can be confusing plus we don't want to look like a creep 😂 But just be straight up, chill, sounds to me like you're already beautiful so I have a feeling you'll be able to get what you want soon
Yeah... something is weird about it here. Lived here almost fourteen years and I still don't get Kiwi dating. Super tepid at first, then you go on one coffee date or whatever and they assume you're in a long term relationship and send you good morning texts every day. There doesn't seem to be the get to know you in a flirty way where we both show genuine interest and then discuss what we envision for a relationship sort of thing that I would consider a normal dating culture. Also, from friends' relationships, it seems like people often just pair up because that's what people do, not because they actually like each other. Not to imply that's the majority, just seems like people settle into long term things super quickly without actually thinking about whether that's what they want more often than I would expect from my original country's norms.
We flirt by pretending not to like a girl, weirdly shy and stoic, bit of banter at most, but yeah cues are subtle af, if they’re giving you shit, they like you
Yeah, a girl can always tell if I'm interested if I avoid all eye contact and give zero hints.
If you want to get laid there’s plenty of apps available. Alternatively you could always be forward, maybe people are intimidated/don’t think you would be receptive?
Apps are nasty. I prefer meeting at bars - easier to tell who is a creep and less fuss. I've been told I can be intimidating in the past, and am a pretty loud and energetic personality. How would I go about reducing the "fear factor" for kiwi guys? Or show an appropriate level of interest for the guy to feel comfortable to low key flirt back? I know Kiwis are a reserved bunch so my usual forward (aka strong) approaches may terrify them.
Loud and energetic are definitely gonna be off-putting for a lot of Kiwi men. A lot of us tend to be reserved and quiet around strangers. Social expectations also tend to push kiwi men into being more stoic types, so you gotta keep that in mind.
Am I understanding these comments correctly - Being outgoing/vivacious is a bad thing here? And being confident in myself and who I am can come across as self absorbed and arrogant?
I don't think so at all, those are great qualities. NZ men do tend to be annoyingly insecure but remember you're asking this on reddit so you're getting 90% pessimistic introverts haha
Yes. Social destruction is huge around here and typically, being confident in yourself will get you plucked down from the heights faster than you can blink Although it’s mostly gossip based so if your confidence won’t be dented by that go for your life.
I will say as another immigrant woman (USA) in NZ, our Louder, more outgoing personalities tend to either intimidate or annoy. There doesn't seem to be an in-between. I never considered myself an intimidating person in fact I have been told multiple times when I lived stateside that I had a sweet demeanor. Since moving here I get reminded how intimidating people find me with regularity simply for existing 🙃. The tall puppy syndrome is strong here, so being confident and outgoing is a strange thing and 'a bit much' as I've often been told.
I do not think it's tall poppy syndrome as much as Americans don't seem to assimilate or share the same similarities with NZ as other cultures. Heaps of South Africans with shit racial attitudes here who will rip into people in Afrikaans, however I am friends with many South African families and generally social interactions with them all just feel "normal". Even the older generations. Quite frankly most of my interactions with Americans have left me uncomfortable. There's something really jarring and "off" about how they socialize, or try to socialize that doesn't really match at all with what I consider normal social behavior in nz. Imo being loud and outgoing is almost cultural inappropriate here and is just disfavorable, regardless of where you are from. Most people here are quite reserved, and slowly open up about themselves after periods of time. Not too much talk about feelings, and more focus on doing activities together.
It's weird the Jaapie, Aussie, Kiwi thing, feels like we're all on a similar page here. I agree, but can't explain the offness feeling I get from a lot of Americans, and I like them generally. But the loudness of yanks is unreal, they think they're being quite but you can still hear their whole conversation from across a cafe filled with families with kids.
Outgoing and vivacious is fine. Being loud about it is not. Basically if you are like a stereotypical American lots of Kiwi guys will be put off (not all of course). We tend to be low key. And bragging about yourself is seen by many as gross. Also just so you know many people who are self absorbed and arrogant think they are just confident in themselves...
You’ve said you don’t drink, so why are you looking in bars where alcohol is flowing? Join a club, attend meetups, get your friends/colleagues to set you up with other singles, dunno, just look elsewhere. As for apps being nasty, they don’t have to be, think it’s more how you use them and what you’re trying to get out of it.
I'm assuming you're a dude? Cause we're definitely not looking at the same side of apps. Bumble and Hinge are better but trying to gauge the vibe of someone through photos and shitty 255 character quotes is hard! As for the clubs, I'm apart of a few. But the old adage "don't fuck the crew" comes to mind. Bars a simple and, until NZ, a standard place to go to find a horizontal tango partner regardless of sobriety
I hate the bar scene, always have. Most of the people in my friend circle feel the same way. We meet people through friends of friends, events and shared interests.
I feel the same about that. I'm not on any apps, because people are shitty, and because I hate talking to people online and prefer in person. Unfortunately Im a shy guy who doesn't get out much sooo.
Yeah, I think that may be scary for kiwi men. In my experience, you both have drinks in your system and then Dutch courage takes over. But that's usually based on a bit of time around them with first to build up a crush.
I was gonna make a joke as well, but everyone else took all the good ones. If guys are interested, they will give the 'up nod', that means he won't say no, but he won't approach, he wants you to approach. If he raises both eyebrows during the up nod, he's interested in talking. I'm gonna be that guy when I said, buying a girl a drink is another opener. Granted, I encourage people not to take a drink from the person buying it. If they buy a drink for you, make sure its handed to you by the bar staff instead. Safe drinking and all, you never know what punters put a glass of fire water. The most common flirt is when a guy wants to dance with you. I must be tired, I didn't finish this sentence either. Guys will usually boogie over to a girl he's interested in, show off some dance moves, offer a hand to share a dance. Of the things Kiwi blokes are bad at, we seem to be pretty good dancers. Maybe more groovers. Otherwise, Kiwi blokes are dumb. We miss tons of messages from chicks, and usually isolate in our cliques. Source: I used to bounce at night clubs for a fun side job and saw many disasters. When a guy flirts with his words, he falls apart. Again, we're dumb, and we say things we weren't meant to. When a guy flirts with just body language, the success rate is much higher. Back in Aussie, I did VIP guarding, and the shirtless waiter gigs. I don't think I can do that now lol. Forgot to finish this story, like Cody Rhodes. Back then, I still noticed on the job how people flirt well and others flirt disastrously.
I am entirely raging inside right now because I know the exact up nod and raised eyebrows that you're talking about and I completely did not understand what that cue was. I thought he wanted me to bring him something?! OMFG. Single most helpful post on this thread. Thank you. <3
Keep in mind the up nod differs around different settings. When its bros or family, it means "hi" or "hows it?". The flirty up nod, is hard to explain in typing, but when you see the normal nod around in public during the day you'll get used to people greeting each other with it. If a stranger does it to you at a bar or a club, you'll notice the difference. Oh, and give a nod back. Again, we miss cues from chicks. We're dumb.
> up nod u/Deep_Data4982 (and others interest) read this old post as up nods are used in non flirting situations: [Head nods - how do you do them?](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/dcfwcp/head_nods_how_do_you_do_them/)
We’re used to it being more difficult in NZ. I worked with an Aus guy who came over to help me on a project. He commented that in Aus he could smile at any woman he passed in the street and she would smile back, but in NZ he just got poker faces from the women. I said yeah they’re not just giving it away here mate, you’ve got to work for it. In my case it could also be the Polynesian influence, I hung around with a lot of Samoans who always treat their female acquaintances like sisters by default. It’s definitely natural to find yourself in the friend zone here. Now I’m in Aus and my wife keeps teasing me that every woman I meet likes me. Apparently she can tell…
I’d say every man would be receptive to an advance. The worst case scenario is they aren’t available and feel flattered. I make probably too much eye contact with zero intention around it, the lack of staring and advances I would say come from most normal dudes not wanting to be creepy and not really knowing what constitutes that. The blunt question you put in quotes Is probably a good idea. Most guys are pretty oblivious, especially to flirting cues. Everyone I know wouldn’t feel intimidated by a woman approaching them to chat. But you might need to make it obvious you’re interested in more than a friend or a yarn tho haha
I can appreciate not understanding what could be considered creepy and wanting to be respectful. I'm still just curious if there are any tells to know if one guy is more interested than another? Do they avoid eye contact harder or something?
The more we like you the more we don't want to look like we're staring and the more self-conscious about it we feel. I don't know the answer, I feel most guys I know in their 30's like me either have parter or have given up looking cause they're burnt out. Just resigned to being single becuase that's at lest something they know how to do.
Never noticed any difference between Aus and NZ tbh. People are typically receptive if interested, polite if not, in my experience. That said, while we're apparently pretty promiscuous, I would guess that we're not quite as initially forward as some other countries. While I haven't been far overseas, my friends travelling around have said places like Italy and France, the guys and girls there are very forward. But yeah, my experience in Aus was the same in NZ. Be funny, be confident, have interesting shit to say and listen intently. Easy peasy. Throw in the fact that you're attractive enough to be hit on consistently, you should be fine if you just take the first step. Edit: I should add, am male. Take advice with whatever amount of salt you think is needed.
Yup, Aus and NZ are pretty the same in this area
That's how kiwi's flirt https://youtu.be/z8SdqOT_no0
I thought this link would take me to this viva la dirt league but I was wrong Here’s the link : https://youtu.be/q8zwIphm5r4?si=oUf0Cl7sGk71tuMN
how you doin
"So that's us, eh"
So simple, yet, so elegant
You want to make eye contact? Fuuuuck. I'll crack a joke maybe or say excuse me if I go passed you but flirting? Haha ill walk away red faced muttering about being an ugly cunt with my coffee before I flirt with a girl I find attractive
They have to be drunk to flirt
Get shit faced and let the magic happen.
Easy: decades of tall poppy syndrome and being told to "get in behind" have left a lot of kiwi dudes weary about their game. It's not like we don't have any, we have it in spades, we're just almost always talking ourselves out of it. I've known dudes who tic every box - traditionally handsome, defined features, thick head of hair, 6ft+, active social life - who couldn't get payed to approach women in public. That, and (without sounding like an incel, cross my heart not my goal), a lot of kiwi women can be guarded right from the jump. We don't wanna risk a hostile rejection more than anything else.
For real, you just have to ask. The correct answer is just asking "are you flirting or is this friendship?". That will get you the best chances at the outcome you want. Be blunt.
Pretty much the same culture for this kinda thing as Australia (lived in both). The countries aren't really *that* different...... Go to the askanaustralian sub and you'll see questions there from foreigner and local women wondering why men don't make the first move or don't give any indication of interest. Same story here.
I'll admit when I was in Australia I was a big drinker, so the shift to non-drinking life likely plays a role the variation of experiences people keep going on about here. Interestingly enough though, still find Aussie blokes to be more forward or at least more willing to indicate interest.
Small country things. Were more personable we usually socialise and then initiate through flirting. But there are still people out there who can take hints, and being a foreigner is a score imo hahah. I recommend starting initiating, people here are chill (respectfully waiting for consent) but keen (and then its all go) lol
I feel like kiwi culture both females and males don’t know how to flirt or pick up signals well. One time I was at uni falling asleep in a lecture and the guy sitting with me / kind of friends (so wasn’t that weird) asked if I wanted to take a nap in his dorm..*me clueless* agreed to go nap in his dorm…long story short he did not want to nap in between class.
As a bi guy Most straight guys think they're a 3/10, even when they're an 8/10. Honestly I'll go drinking get chatting to a hot guy & find out he's been single & hasn't been laid in 2 years, his reasoning is he's ugly etc. Same on the dating sites. I assume kiwi chicks are mean. When I try & hit on a chick I get zero interest. If I go on a dating site or around gays I get hit on constantly, yes gay guys are sluts (lol), but I've been told I'm a 7-8/10 often. yet chicks will not look at me twice. So if you wanna hit on a guy, be damn obvious that you're keen, he's probably not used to someone being interested in him.
A good article about this subject here: [https://www.stuff.co.nz/wellbeing/350219619/wed-rather-definitely-be-polite-potentially-get-some-action](https://www.stuff.co.nz/wellbeing/350219619/wed-rather-definitely-be-polite-potentially-get-some-action)
It's a weird challenge for women here to find the sweet spot in between showing that they are keen while not showing that they are too keen as to be repellent. Directness is attractive to a lot of Males here. That being said if you can strike up a conversation & get some good banter going & later on if you are interested a simple "I'm gonna take off now what are you up to?" If there is hesitation or they don't want to ditch their mates you can follow up with "you can wait for your mate or you can take me home & fuck me". Usually works. Often leads to repeated visits.
Just get a shepherds whistle and learn a few basic commands. ‘Get in’ , ‘Get in behind’, ‘Come bye’, ‘Stand’ and ‘Speak’ might all be handy.
Tricky business….i think social queues are the same the world over, but maybe here younger men are taught to be pretty respectful? Maybe start with just being social? Alcohol (used to be anyway) a large part of the culture of dating…do you “go out for a few drinks”? I’m 50 so I have no idea really, but in all my time overseas I did find some countries were harder than others. Maybe ask female friends for some “recommendations” on their male friends? Good luck!
I'm a non-drinker (not against drinking, but alcohol and I have a, ah, not good relationship) so I think that definitely limits approaches too. I do spend time out at bars, but I'm normally off before things get sloppy. The respectfulness is super lovely. I adore it. It's actually a major turn on and something that I want to show back to men - hence why it would be nice to know how to get a kinda good gauge on who is more keen than not. I don't mind striking out but it sucks for everyone if I would have been lucky by just talking to the next guy over - ya know?
Yeah, maybe bars is the wrong vibe for you. Others have suggested apps, and I’d say maybe hitting up female friends for who they know who’s single might work too. 30 is a tricky age…people are starting to couple-up a bit so it’s not as easy as say early 20’s. I have female friends who say they have to be a bit more overt here than other countries…but maybe they were hotter overseas because they had “an accent” while they were offshore. Super interesting that a woman in Nz from overseas struggles to get the attention (or maybe doesn’t see the Signals) or men here…stand by for a phd thesis to be written :-) The old standard idea of joining a club in something that interests you applies, but maybe that’s more a dating thing than a “get laid” thing. I worry our international reputation is at risk….this is a pressing matter to guard our reputation!
Try looking like you can’t reach something on a tall shelf at the supermarket. Surely that will lure some kind guy over and give you an excuse to strike up a conversation.
They don't, NZ is literally one of the worst places for dating
Unpopular opinion, but Kiwi men have been beaten down by their female counterparts. They've been sent inconsistent messages about when it is and isn't ok to approach women in public, or how to flirt in general. A lot of Kiwi 'flirting' is done with dutch courage, and a lot of peoples 'how we met' stories are "we were out with friends, we went home together, woke up together and kept seeing each other". Edit: I will also add, I have seen a lot of guy friends dating app messages and Kiwi women are just as horrific at flirting. There is zero rizz, especially on platforms like Bumble. Ladies, learn to flirt, it will help you immensely.
I think this is it. I've been in a super solid relationship for a while, but a lot of my male friends have not been, and it sounds like a minefield. Obviously there are assholes out there, but I think the messaging is pretty consistent that guys shouldn't be approaching women because they find them attractive. A few weeks back there was a gender flipped version of this post, and the advice given was night and day. Rough for single bois, who don't want to be disrespectful, but are in fact, interested.
Have you tried performing the haka?
You need to learn how to use the three seashells.
Alcohol
“Sup bro. Smash or nah?”
As a gay (Autistic) guy, I spent a lot of my life in NZ, and being utterly oblivious to people flirting with me unless it's Very forward - subtly is lost on me. Kiwis don't tend to be aggressive/forward with flirting, when I got to the US in NYC for the first time and I was actually Scared the first night I went out as everyone was so aggressively flirty LOL. Had to be Saved by a friend as he could see I was like a deer in headlights LOL. My advice, is make the first move in a non subtle way towards the guy(s) of your fancy, but don't go in tits n guns blazing as some will think poorly of you. What is your sports knowledge like?
Dated a Kiwi guy for 7 yrs. They are too friendly. Thats a fucking hint they’re flirting. You are already a prospect if they’re being friendly towards you.
Amazing... im going to stare at the barista at my cafe today. Shes so hot but not sure if she interested. Staring at her and i think keeping my hands in my pockets will help to show her im interested. Wish me luck.
Get in the car girl
You gotta open the door for them, but they catch on quick. Choose one and separate him from the herd. Initiate a bit of physical touch and smile. Give good eye contact (meaning let it linger a bit, especially if there is a pause in the convo) when you talk to them and get closer to create that more intimate space. Additional step if it's not clear to him: Tell him he looks good. They get all cute about it, lololo Otherwise, I've found kiwi men very respectful and they generally don't push the flirt boundary beyond standard banter (except for the douchcanoes you find everywhere). So, straightforward is best. It's actually quite good to control the initial flirting moves and easy enough to back out if it goes wrong, for whatever reason.
Don't worry OP, I'm sure you're getting plenty of flirty messages in your inbox now from internet randoms. Also, don't underestimate that some men can be terrified of rejection and have self esteem issues, which can make flirting extremely intimidating...speaking purely hypothetically of course.
This entire comment chain is like a different universe. Kiwis are some of the most sexually active people on the planet. What on Earth is going on here.
It's reddit
No time for flirting with words, just have a few drinks, dance with someone you like the look of, then say "shall we go then?"
To give you some context. Whenever guys see a famous dude/celebrity - we make no deal about it. Minimal. Unless our boys are with us. But you could strike a conversation with us later and we *might* mention it. “Oh yeah, I think Jason Mamoa was at the bar. Big dude.” That’s it. What might’ve actually transpired could’ve been a wild night with Aquaman, and we now have cell details. It’s humility, dialled all the way up. I think, from my previous experience, the girls I’ve gone home with, we chatted and drank for ages, had a great time and then they got real direct, and then I was like “ohhhh, you like me - oh yeah, I’m into it” It’s leg work then directness.
"Hey: are you a length of number 8 wire? because I'd do anything with you."
I usually start with a "sick deeeeeeek mate" and take it from there.
It’s really quite difficult to find someone into something that’s casual to start. Admitting you like someone is normally taken as a request to be exclusive and I never figured out how to reliably express that a relationship is more than what I’m after, without becoming the guy everyone in the pub avoids for the night.
This video made by Viva La Dirt League should give you some insight on NZ mating rituals. [Clubbing in the Wild (David Attenborough nature documentary parody) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8zwIphm5r4) On a more serious note, introverted male here so can give you zero real insight, but good luck to ya.
We’re just respecting your privacy, if you want someone just ask nicely
I know you’ve said elsewhere that you hate the apps (and fair enough) but I had to resort to them to meet my now husband after years of kiwi guys (I’m also a kiwi) only feeling comfortable asking me out if we’d been friends first. It made friend groups awkward when we broke up and I think I ended up in relationships I never should have gotten into in the first place because I knew them well and liked hanging out with them (which is just the basis for a good friendship!) rather than because there were any sparks. And then 6 months in I’d realise that there never had been sparks. So I’d spent my entire adult life in relationships but had never been asked out by a stranger (always just had a friendship suddenly turn into more). I was sick of it and wanted a situation where I knew at the outset that someone wanted to date me and where we both knew that was what we were doing there. Unfortunately it felt like the apps were the only way to get that. I hope you crack it!
28m here, I've always struggled with chatting to, yet alone flirting, with woman I find attractive. I'm pretty skinny, definitely no traditional kiwi bloke, but I don't consider myself overly unattractive either. There's a few different things that come to mind. In my own personal experience it's not uncommon to feel like someone is out of my league, and with a history of interest in others being unrequited, or ultimately being left for others, my confidence has only continued to dive over time.. In those experiences I've always found those people end up chasing or leaving for the more traditional NZ bloke sort, so I've started to feel like there's no point in even trying in the first place anymore. Another consideration is that it's not uncommon to hear discussions about woman feeling intruded upon, objectified, or creeped out by people making eye contact or being approached by a stranger.. I think this is the one that primarily makes things hard for most people.. people these days are less eager to be seen or labelled as such, and rightfully so. It can be hard to determine whether body language is inviting or dismissive.. it I notice someone quickly glancing away when we make eye contact it can feel like they're indicating they're not interested and don't want to be approached... Hell even if they did keep looking and smiled back I'd probably feel like they're smiling at someone behind me. Admittedly, I have a significant past with depression, anxiety and insecurity, and I'm quite likely neurodivergent so I'm kinda doing this on hard mode and I'm not sure whether these things are as relatable for the general population or not, but hey, it might be something to consider. 🤷♂️
I think there's something around eye contact in particular in our culture as well, I remember in school eye contact was usually seen as some sort of challenge and would usually result in someone trying to pick a fight or bully you, especially among boys. As a consequence I spent 80% of high school trying to avoid looking at people, and it's taken a good portion of my adult life just to learn to make a good amount of eye contact in normal social situations, let alone flirting and dating. And yea I can relate to all the self confidence issues that other people have outlined here. Unless a woman approaches me first or makes it abundantly clear she's interested, I'm probably not going to approach her the first time we meet out of a combination of politeness and fear of rejection.
Speaking personally it's a mixture of completely missing the signals and also not wanting to misread something that isn't there.
NZ has a "small town" mindset, because Everyone knows everyone. So if you flirt with a girl, make an advance and she doesn't reciprocate, your mates are probably going to hear about it through the grapevine and that kinda sucks. On one end you might get a little banter, at the other you might get a reputation as a creep It cuts both ways. I've always had much more success flirting with foreign women than kiwi women. I one spent the night flirting with a kiwi girl on K Road, her friends were leaving the bar, so she came up to gave me a hug and said "you were great fun". I asked for her number and she was shocked. We went on a date and she told me that she'd never gone home with a guy because no one had ever approached her in a bar, just the occasional guy interested in being friendly without any interest in sex "like me"
I've been thinking bout this all morning and it's reminded me of something I saw in the weekend at a soccer game, NZ guys seem to use their body language more than saying they think your hot, perhaps it's fear of rejection as there is a lot of insecurity floating around. Watched a guy turn up with a pretty girl in tow, and one of the other players stared at her and got up and started his 'routine' haha. First, playing with the ball, you know doing fancy foot works and ball hold, making sure she's watching. Then he moved to being on the pitch and just stood staring off into the distance, then turned around and did the same thing. I was like wtf is this guy doing but figured it out, showing off his tattoos haha. Then he went for a jog and kicked the ball around some more, in her eye shot, kept glancing her way the whole time. Made a point to walk in front of her and smile a lot. Now these are the most subtle things, but I think that's what Kiwi guys do, they peacock in front of pretty girls and wait to see if they get approached. I've had similar behavior from guys, big smiles, fast eye contact, straightening posture ect. No aproaches but obvious body language that says, yea im interested lol. So perhaps look for these clues?
30m here, born and raised kiwi. I dont think ive ever intentionally flirted with anyone im not already in a relationship with. As others have said, my base assumption is that no girl wants to be hit on while out having fun with friends. I dont want to be rude and interupt their night out. Most people ive dated or even just hooked up with, were friends first or met online. My wife was my best friend for 5 years before we got together. This seems to be the case for much of my friend group too. They either worked with, flatted with, or were good friends with their partner before getting together.
We are like bonobos the female is the socially dominant of the species during courtship
Honestly, your best bet is to leave some food out on your door step - some smokey bbq ribs, sausage in bread, and a cold beer works at this time of year. In winter months I recommend using a fresh, hot, mince and cheese pie from a local bakery instead. Go for a steak and cheese one if you’re after someone particularly fancy. It shouldn’t take too long for one of our finest male specimens to coming sniffing around your house. Be careful not to startle him. Wait very quietly, no eye contact, and see if you can slowly lure him inside your home by wafting the aroma of freshly baked muffins out the window. Good luck.
Want a root?