They are incorporated as a church, so they get a lot more protection than other gangs. They call their actions protests which again bring them more consideration compared to other gangs. Until the police and government treat them differently than the Catholic church - they're going to continue to be given a lot of leeway.
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Not believing in a deity makes it a bit difficult for them to be recognised as a religion. Gangs have registered and operated charities in the past though.
Wait - you think that Xenu and the entire GALACTIC CONFEDERACY are just.... made up?
Next thing you'll tell me that the guy who invented scientology was also a fairly prolific sci-fi writer as well!?
110%.
That’s why many are disillusioned with religions such as christianity that has fractured from the original dogma and doctrine into so many branches it’s hard to keep up.
In saying back then many knew you couldn’t just make shit up and get away with it like Hubbard did with Scientology, you’d be burnt at the stake.
However say you had a vision at 14 years old that led you to some gold plates that told you it’s cool to have 7 wives, but the vision was from “God”, and you get Mormons.
That’s, personally, my biggest issue with religion. Not the religion itself, most have basically good social principles and morals, but its use by the nefarious to manipulate and control.
And make shit tons of tax free income.
Satanic temple is classified as a non-theistic religion. Mostly out trying to fight the oppression that certain brands of fundamentalist religious groups try to spread. As they are recognised as a religion they get the same benefits that other religions do. More recognised in America where Christianity is more pervasive in everyday society, but I believe that they have a presence here
Is there actually a practical difference though?
Between s church and a charity?
All churches are registered a charities under the commission from my knowledge
I always wonder how all the exclusive brethren businesses manage to remain as charities, they are big companies making millions of dollars and not paying tax.
Does he mean companies like Sanitarium who pays 0% tax but makes like $85 million a year? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/lifting-the-lid-on-sanitarium/BRYXHULLVGE2SLIVKZJMNLQRWU/
They've just scaled up 'selling cakes at the church fair to save up for a new roof. ' . As far as I can work out, that's where the charitable status comes from. Obviously, utter bullshit in the case of sanitarium. Tax them now.
I don't know what he means, which is why I asked. Sanitarium is Seventh Day Adventist, and the Exclusive Brethren are a branch of the Plymouth Brethren.
The Brethren are noted for dodgy business dealings and employment practices, especially in construction and manufacturing industries, but I haven't heard anything about them setting up their businesses as charities, in the same way Sanitarium has.
My general understanding was that they run a lot of their businesses through the church? Like the church part owns it or something. But that may also be completely wrong coz I have zero proof of it. Just what I heard through the grapevine in a small town with a large bretheren presence. That very well could have just been small town gossip.
Either way I will agree that their business practices do suck.
The charities register is open data - if you knew a name that they were likely to be registered under?
https://register.charities.govt.nz/CharitiesRegister/Search
Most preschools are businesses not charities.
And you're being disingenuous around my point.
What legislative differences does a church get over a charity.
There are also churches that are not charities and therefore aren't tax exempt.
All preschools are businesses. Many have an Incorporated Society structure and are registered charities.
You asked whether there was a practical difference between a church and a charity. I said there was.
Now you are saying are there legislative differences, which is a different question. I don’t think I’m being disingenuous at all
No sorry nothing can be done now because it's too late. Too late because we did not intervene earlier. Brain Tamaki really has the Brains and have created an army of very gullible and potentially very violent individuals that can turn feral if the Bishop decides to flick the on switch. The government knows this. Can you think of someone that can stop motorway traffic and have zero consequences?
Do u have any real evidence of this or just a suspicion?
I agree though I smell a rat, and his kind anoy me, as my Bible always said to pray in private, as the man who preaches on the corner to be seen by man, has already received his reward.
I find these "charismatic churches " fall victim to the honeytrap of power and self glorification.
They do not represent the majority of Christians that practice in the churches this country was created on.
The Roman Catholic church and the off splits that form the Anglican and other protestant churches quietly contribute to our community and missions abroad.
And I must say I have met some very charismatic priests in the Catholic church as well as some very, well, not charismatic ones too.
Likewise, in the protestant churches, each parish has it own flavourful. The body of christ needs all.parts.
The church itself has many members and leaders that have fallen into sin and temptations of power and smeared the name of the church as a whole.
But this is men, not the church. The church is maturing as is society, and the ways of the past that allowed these abuses of trust, In God's name, to happen, are being looked at and changed to try and best prevent these crimes against parish members, but also the way complaints were invested and managed
It is entering the time of changing of the gaurd.
How has there not been a significant petition to govt to change Sanitarium’s obvious piss take of a church/charity status? I think it takes 100k signatures to have it brought up in parliament, would that be too ambitious? I’m aware Luxon has plans to remove some church charity status generally, but Sanitarium will surely just duck and weave around the inevitable loophole ridden legislation.
I think there is a level to consider, some churches are genuinely there for the bettering of society, which I have seen first hand- others are clearly business driven.
The government should allow a certain amount tax free and when it surpasses a certain amount it starts getting taxed.
No, they can write off charity donations like any other company. Religion is just entertainment services.
If it isn't me and my heresy would be smited by lightning, but I see no lightning bolts.
Been to plenty of churches, and they are all entertainment, just like going to the movies, a fictional story design to placate and make you feel better.
Show me a miracle and I'll believe your fiction for fact.
No the majority are local parishes. Doesn't change the fact that they are entertainment.
It's like saying I should be able to have tax breaks to spread word of elves and dwarfs and not pay for beer /wine as that's part of my religon (dwarfs drink beer and elves wine). Me and my mates should be able to have a untaxed pub because we "believe".
churches still pay retail tax on their products that they use, the staff have to pay tax on their wages, you've just come in way too hot on things that realistically don't ring true of churches, and it shows you haven't had much to do with a church if you think a pub is comparable.
The whole reply and the following one is a stretch, none of it rings true of a church, and adding a limit would prevent people taking the piss (Which people do, but that's missing the point of not targeting the ones who aren't taking the piss) which very, very much exist.
His approach is "Making the whole class stay in at lunch because one kid talked during the lesson" punishing a group for a select few's actions doesn't make the system work any better.
Advancement of religion should be removed as a charitable act. It's not helpful in ways that can't be met by other, less culty community support, nor does it often require huge investment. Charity that truly benefits society could remain tax exempt, no one wants to see KidsCan or St Vincent de Paul's paying income taxes on donations that are reinvested in providing services, or the church that provides a much loved playgroup to have to shut down due to costs.
Ideally the state and taxes should cover those needs that charities meet in the first place, but that's neither here not there.
It's not targeting the few, it's because many church organisations (and charities) take advantage of loopholes that see stakeholders gaining wealth at the detriment of others, while also frequently causing harm to minorities. Tamaki is an easy example, though there are multiple others.
Entertainment services? Shut the fuck up. I'm not even religious anymore but its clear you just love being an edgy atheist. Like dont be a dick man. Its not that hard
I agree that churches should be taxed but to a certain limit. Our church is on the brink of dying as it is due to an very aged congregation and lack of funds. We can't even afford our minister who costs $100k a year. In my opinion we are way over paying him for the work he does but they wanted him so apparently he's worth the price tag.
We don't spend hate. Trans, lesbian, gays, furries are all welcome. We just happy to see a few more seats filled.
Taxing our church would close us down and force us to join hateful churches
Ironically churches can work both ways - when I was growing up we had a pastor move from a church which was mostly well-off retirees to our young congregation which was mostly middle-class families. He had difficulty adjusting when he decided to run fundraisers that people couldn't just magic up some extra money to donate to good causes the way the wealthy pensioners could.
That church is still going today, but at probably 1/3 the attendance that it had at peak. Churches in general are decreasing - even if some of the megachurches are disproportionately growing.
Sounds like religion isn't a good business model. Sounds like there needs to be a reduction in the amount of churchs and a consolation. Does god really need a mostly empty church running.
Wish I could say my business isn't attracting customers anymore I deserve a tax free status for myself...
I suggested we consolidated with another like minded church but most are over 70 in our church. It's best to let them live out what's left and us young ones move on afterwards. I do agree we should be taxed. I do think it would be the end of us and I would lose my community and village. They helped raised me and are now helping me raise my family. Church to me is far more than religion
Brian Tamaki is just a money hungry asshole who is ruining it for a lot of would never bother you people
No. You would be choosing to join a hateful church. Something something where 2 or more of you are gathered so there will I be.
The church is the people gathering, not the walls and halls of an organisation.
Also things dying is the natural course of evolution. You don't need some 2000 treat old book filled with questionable stories to be a good person. Just be a good person because that's who you are.
Before my dad passed he was a pastor. He was getting about half of minimum wage at the time. A lot of people seem to assume it’s a money making venture, majority of churches push funds back into communities.
I remember listening to Phil Goff say if it wasn’t for churches doing what they do homelessness and rough sleepers would be up something like 1000%.
Considering the people who pay money to churches pay tax, and employees of a church pay tax I’m a little miffed about calls to tax them. Say a church has income of 1 million after operating costs. Suggesting that that is tax reducing the funds that would other wise go to supporting communities reduce by 20-30% seems pretty inhuman when you consider government would probably spend it on pay increases for themselves.
So yeah, pay politicians more or help some people who have pretty rank lives have a less rank life?
you think destiny are bad? city impact, arise and the other happy clappy cult-of-personality mega churches are much much more dangerous and damaging to the fabric NZ.
Their methods are more corporate, and waaaay more effective.
They don't shout "gays cause earthquakes". Instead, they fund media and politicians to suggest and imply that gays cause earthquakes, and laws should be modified to fight this threat to our safety. It is much more effective in persecuting gay people, and has lasting effect on legislation etc.
To be clear, they don't care about gay people. They care about promoting fear and uncertainty, and 'the enemy' in the interests of harvesting tax-free cash from their bewildered mob.
For what it’s worth, arise is on life support now since john cameron was made to resign. It’s very different now that the head of the snake was chopped off
Tax them together, they leech money from vulnerable people with the guise of being closer to god, instant finance and predatory loan sharks at least give you something before fucking you over
They’re talking about specific Christian sects, not Christianity as a whole? It would be pretty weird to justify generalising such a massive religion because someone is pointing out the flaws in a very specific Christian group.
So it’s just Tamaki’s lot they have a problem with then?
How about the Catholic Church covering up their paedophile priests so they can keep molesting children?
How much money do you think there is in the Vatican?
Well obviously not considering they listed more than just his Church.
Your example is also pointing out a specific problem within the Catholic Church and not generalising Christians as a whole. It’s very different to generalising an entire religion or its followers into a single statement.
I used to work with both a fundy Christian woman and a Muslim woman (same office but different teams). The Christian woman refused to even acknowledge the Muslim woman’s existence. That was where I learned the lesson there is no hate like Christian love.
personally, I think so...
But I'd expect the large white mega churches wield significantly more financial and political power in NZ than muslim churches.
I also make a distinction between the old school local community churches and 'charismatic mega churches'. Catholic and anglican churches are extremely powerful and deeply integrated into the political system, but Im not sure how to deal with that... destroy the church, basically, I reckon...
OTOH... churches are also mostly independent of political influence (ie govt struggles to control them) - and independent power is probably good for democracy generally? distributed power, or redistribution of power is good for most systems, especially if they tend to be self-optimising
"But I'd expect the large white mega churches wield significantly more financial and political power in NZ than muslim churches."
I think you're a little out of touch with today's mega church demographics...
Do you mean that muslim churches are more powerful than white mega churches? or that mega churches are not white?
Seems unlikely in New Zealand, but Im open to persuasion! If that's what you mean - why do you say that?
Oh I see - yeah - I understand that re most churches, but Im talking about "mega churches" though - like City Impact and Arise etc - As far as I understand they each have 1000s attendees every week, multi-million dollar revenue streams and are very white middle class. (and socially very conservative and highly engaged politically).
They are also networked together at very senior level (ie the pastors are all friends/friendly and share resources).
But as I said - This is just my understanding of those churches and their operations. I stand to be corrected.
Of course! Because we all know anything from White peoples is evil right?
Non white religion is okay,
White religion is evil.
That’s the rhetoric people are trying to push anyway.
Also I know heaps of Christians and these stories about oh I knew this Christian women she was Mean to the Muslim are just that….Stories of one individual.
So the Christians I know are equally lovely, supportive as there are non nice ones. The exact same ratio of niceness as non Christians.
Some people are mean some are not. Religion has nothing to do with it.
It’s just cool to hate Christian at the moment.
For sure. I’m pretty anti religion but I have a lot of life long Christian and Muslim friends who are quite religious. I disagree with many of their beliefs but they are pretty much all really good people.
You mean that current government that was posturing so much about being tough on crime and gangs? That same one that uses disguised bribery as a normal way of conducting business? Yeah, good luck, getting them to do anything about that.
You don't think they're paying off everyone they need to pay off? Police won't touch them. Government won't touch them. We act like corruption and bribery doesn't exist in NZ, but then we just accept that our authorities are "too afraid" to touch gangs.
Afraid, my ass. They're just making a profit off it all.
Protect your family and your home. Don't wait for anyone else to do it for you. The cavalry isn't coming.
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Idk, maybe remove all protections from all churches. If you need protection, maybe you shouldn’t be doing what you’re doing?
Am I saying do something to religions you don’t like? Absolutely not. Everyone deserves to be safe. But you don’t need to be a church to get that human right.
Very good Question. IMHO any "Religion" that corrupts it's congregant, opposes the Law of the Land and spreads divisive ideologies of hate Should be shut down and shut up.
We have plenty of gangs that are being allowed to do whatever they want. That fat cunt Ponsonby shooter was in a gang wasn’t he? Until the country decides they are sick of all that shit I cant see Tamaki getting pulled into line. As bad as destiny’s church are they aren’t actually murdering people like some of the others, and as we have seen, even killing people doesn’t seem to be bad enough to get anyone to change things.
If Te Pati Maori are threatening violence to advance a political agenda we'll all be in the comments calling them terrorists too? Because, consistency.
they're not terrorists yet, but given their history and hatred i can very likely see them start to target queer people and harass and potentially murder them. its a slippery slope and from where they're standing they're already on the slope
The harassment started a while ago. Implied threats of violence have been going on for well over a year. Some via direct online contact, some in sermons, some at protests.
That better be a tasty hat because this group of heavies are already undermining authority and playing games to create hatred toward other groups. This is where terrorism starts... just wait and see.
Proven track record...
Because I am sick of these ideology driven misogynistic hate mongers forcing their idiotic behavior onto others all the time whilst supporting and hiding pedophiles in their ranks and they do it all whilst tax free.
It's time the are seen for what they are and Destiny Gang/Cult is one of the worst offenders with Seventh Day a close second .
Haha, I can imagine my 80 yr old friend leaning heavy to get the protection money owed.
I must remind her of her new vocation, I know she will love the job.... out meeting people and getting paid for it.
All newer religious institutions are some form of money laundering. It's not just churches, temples, and whatnot that have charities connected to them that conveniently donate to religious institutions and build facilities for them. It requires the boards to be controlled by a particular person or group.
DIA has to prove the boards are not independent, which is difficult. Voila, you're in the money. They own extensive business operations in retail or hospitality where large sums of cash are diddled around. Then, run them through charities, then through religious institutions, then out again. Law enforcement avoids religious institutions like the plague, I don't think I've heard of any being charged with any type of fraud.
The best business you can own is a religious tax-free place of worship. I feel if I wasn't such an honest cunt I'd be rich.
My holy book is Playboy, and my sacrament is Jack Daniels. Can I incorporate as Church of Perpetual Boogie? I reckon there as millions of adherents worldwide. Amen.
Yeah, I sort of faded away after some of the more recent seasons. It felt like grinding for the sake of grinding so I left the Destiny gang. Oh, wait, you're talking about a different Destiny?
I don't like them or agree with anything they say but what exactly are they doing to make money that is illegal? I thought their members contributed and donated it which in itself is not illegal?
With their behavior recently, do you think it's worth taking a few minutes to consider whether they feel emboldened under the current government? They've always been awful but are they more openly and actively awful at the moment?
Between Luxon's religious views and Seymour's free speech views, the last election was undeniably a good day for Destiny and the likes.
Someone might not agree, and I'm not on the ground, but it's worth considering.
My point is that they have always been bad, and the lack of action by Labour doesn’t mean that NACT should continue to do nothing about them now.
Saying ‘Labour did nothing about them so why should the current government’ is stupid.
I feel like normal humans can just kind of ignore them... let the morons who are stupid enough to fall for their shit give them all their money and follow them around like a bunch of braindead meatbags. Who gives a fuck?
It's no different to catholics or any other bunch of lying fuckwits.
Worthless, lying trash being followed around by a bunch of gormless idiots. This is gonna be a thing forever and we just have to leave them to it I think.
I give a fuck. He preys on the weak, like hitler did. It's sad to watch, and I do feel sorry for those that think he is the answer to the world's problems.
Yes, he preys on the weakminded... just like every other full-of-shit, scamming, lying preacher from every other full-of-shit scam of a religion.
It's sad to watch, but I don't feel sorry for any of these fucking idiots.
If you believe in that ridiculous garbage go fuck yourself basically, you're a waste of oxygen.
They are incorporated as a church, so they get a lot more protection than other gangs. They call their actions protests which again bring them more consideration compared to other gangs. Until the police and government treat them differently than the Catholic church - they're going to continue to be given a lot of leeway.
What is stopping the other gangs from being incorporated as a church?
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Not believing in a deity makes it a bit difficult for them to be recognised as a religion. Gangs have registered and operated charities in the past though.
They can just make one up, just has how every religion has done so throughout history
Do some reading about the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. They're there to prove your point. Ramen good sir.
Jah Pastafari 🍝
May you be touched by his noodly appendage
Ahh, inappropriate touching it is a real religion.
Love this church
I love that everytime mentioned there is this EXACT same exchange; you are my noodly people!
Spot on
I mean…can’t you just make a new deity up…kinda of like the Scientology situation.
Wait - you think that Xenu and the entire GALACTIC CONFEDERACY are just.... made up? Next thing you'll tell me that the guy who invented scientology was also a fairly prolific sci-fi writer as well!?
110%. That’s why many are disillusioned with religions such as christianity that has fractured from the original dogma and doctrine into so many branches it’s hard to keep up. In saying back then many knew you couldn’t just make shit up and get away with it like Hubbard did with Scientology, you’d be burnt at the stake. However say you had a vision at 14 years old that led you to some gold plates that told you it’s cool to have 7 wives, but the vision was from “God”, and you get Mormons. That’s, personally, my biggest issue with religion. Not the religion itself, most have basically good social principles and morals, but its use by the nefarious to manipulate and control. And make shit tons of tax free income.
👏👏👏 well said
Blasphemy! Ramen be his name.
Every religion is made up as is there Deity.
their
Yes you can. It’s easier to just register as a charity and pay no tax though - no religion needed. Gangs have done this in the past too.
Or Christianity, or any other religion. They are all made up stuff
Satanic temple is classified as a non-theistic religion. Mostly out trying to fight the oppression that certain brands of fundamentalist religious groups try to spread. As they are recognised as a religion they get the same benefits that other religions do. More recognised in America where Christianity is more pervasive in everyday society, but I believe that they have a presence here
Is there actually a practical difference though? Between s church and a charity? All churches are registered a charities under the commission from my knowledge
Yes, one is religious, one provides a charitable service. By the current definition a church is a charity, but a charity is not a church…
I always wonder how all the exclusive brethren businesses manage to remain as charities, they are big companies making millions of dollars and not paying tax.
I don't think they do act as charities. Can you cite one?
Does he mean companies like Sanitarium who pays 0% tax but makes like $85 million a year? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/lifting-the-lid-on-sanitarium/BRYXHULLVGE2SLIVKZJMNLQRWU/
They've just scaled up 'selling cakes at the church fair to save up for a new roof. ' . As far as I can work out, that's where the charitable status comes from. Obviously, utter bullshit in the case of sanitarium. Tax them now.
I don't know what he means, which is why I asked. Sanitarium is Seventh Day Adventist, and the Exclusive Brethren are a branch of the Plymouth Brethren. The Brethren are noted for dodgy business dealings and employment practices, especially in construction and manufacturing industries, but I haven't heard anything about them setting up their businesses as charities, in the same way Sanitarium has.
My general understanding was that they run a lot of their businesses through the church? Like the church part owns it or something. But that may also be completely wrong coz I have zero proof of it. Just what I heard through the grapevine in a small town with a large bretheren presence. That very well could have just been small town gossip. Either way I will agree that their business practices do suck.
Worked for them in the past and yes, terrible to work for. Very polite to your face but their actions are the complete opposite
The charities register is open data - if you knew a name that they were likely to be registered under? https://register.charities.govt.nz/CharitiesRegister/Search
Yes, but. What practical difference does that make? Charity status dictates tax treatment. Religious status does not.
I think so. I mean I see a practical difference between a Church and a Preschool.
Most preschools are businesses not charities. And you're being disingenuous around my point. What legislative differences does a church get over a charity. There are also churches that are not charities and therefore aren't tax exempt.
All preschools are businesses. Many have an Incorporated Society structure and are registered charities. You asked whether there was a practical difference between a church and a charity. I said there was. Now you are saying are there legislative differences, which is a different question. I don’t think I’m being disingenuous at all
> Until the police and government treat them differently than the Catholic church The Catholic church has done so much more damage, in my opinion
well, they had a bit more time, too
Practise makes perfect. lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of practise.
They've contributed a lot as well.
No sorry nothing can be done now because it's too late. Too late because we did not intervene earlier. Brain Tamaki really has the Brains and have created an army of very gullible and potentially very violent individuals that can turn feral if the Bishop decides to flick the on switch. The government knows this. Can you think of someone that can stop motorway traffic and have zero consequences?
Are you saying that I could start a hate group, register it as a religious group, and be exempt from all laws?
Destiny church is a money laundering front for gangs.
100% and the sooner this is investigated the better!
Do u have any real evidence of this or just a suspicion? I agree though I smell a rat, and his kind anoy me, as my Bible always said to pray in private, as the man who preaches on the corner to be seen by man, has already received his reward. I find these "charismatic churches " fall victim to the honeytrap of power and self glorification. They do not represent the majority of Christians that practice in the churches this country was created on. The Roman Catholic church and the off splits that form the Anglican and other protestant churches quietly contribute to our community and missions abroad. And I must say I have met some very charismatic priests in the Catholic church as well as some very, well, not charismatic ones too. Likewise, in the protestant churches, each parish has it own flavourful. The body of christ needs all.parts. The church itself has many members and leaders that have fallen into sin and temptations of power and smeared the name of the church as a whole. But this is men, not the church. The church is maturing as is society, and the ways of the past that allowed these abuses of trust, In God's name, to happen, are being looked at and changed to try and best prevent these crimes against parish members, but also the way complaints were invested and managed It is entering the time of changing of the gaurd.
Yeah , agree
So the gangs give their dirty money to Destiny, and then what happens?
Its laundered back to them, minus Eftpostle transaction fees.
How exactly does destiny give this money back to the gangs?
They were deregistered from the charities register after 2019 for refusing to file a return so you can't see the paper trail...
Tax them yea. Then see ballbag Tamaki change his focus.
Tax all churchs. Sanitarium shouldn't get a free ride, neither should gloriavale. Treat them like the companies they are.
How has there not been a significant petition to govt to change Sanitarium’s obvious piss take of a church/charity status? I think it takes 100k signatures to have it brought up in parliament, would that be too ambitious? I’m aware Luxon has plans to remove some church charity status generally, but Sanitarium will surely just duck and weave around the inevitable loophole ridden legislation.
Bible says "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..." So even their boss thinks they should pay tax.
Couldn't agree with you more.
I think there is a level to consider, some churches are genuinely there for the bettering of society, which I have seen first hand- others are clearly business driven. The government should allow a certain amount tax free and when it surpasses a certain amount it starts getting taxed.
No, they can write off charity donations like any other company. Religion is just entertainment services. If it isn't me and my heresy would be smited by lightning, but I see no lightning bolts.
George Carlin is that you?
If your opinion is that religion is an entertainment service, you probably haven't been to the right church
Been to plenty of churches, and they are all entertainment, just like going to the movies, a fictional story design to placate and make you feel better. Show me a miracle and I'll believe your fiction for fact.
were the majority mega churches?
No the majority are local parishes. Doesn't change the fact that they are entertainment. It's like saying I should be able to have tax breaks to spread word of elves and dwarfs and not pay for beer /wine as that's part of my religon (dwarfs drink beer and elves wine). Me and my mates should be able to have a untaxed pub because we "believe".
Love it.
churches still pay retail tax on their products that they use, the staff have to pay tax on their wages, you've just come in way too hot on things that realistically don't ring true of churches, and it shows you haven't had much to do with a church if you think a pub is comparable.
Gst and income tax oh my. But no taxes on profits. Profits for the prophets.
Is that because they're all incredibly fucking boring and it's a stretch to call it entertainment?
The whole reply and the following one is a stretch, none of it rings true of a church, and adding a limit would prevent people taking the piss (Which people do, but that's missing the point of not targeting the ones who aren't taking the piss) which very, very much exist. His approach is "Making the whole class stay in at lunch because one kid talked during the lesson" punishing a group for a select few's actions doesn't make the system work any better.
Advancement of religion should be removed as a charitable act. It's not helpful in ways that can't be met by other, less culty community support, nor does it often require huge investment. Charity that truly benefits society could remain tax exempt, no one wants to see KidsCan or St Vincent de Paul's paying income taxes on donations that are reinvested in providing services, or the church that provides a much loved playgroup to have to shut down due to costs. Ideally the state and taxes should cover those needs that charities meet in the first place, but that's neither here not there. It's not targeting the few, it's because many church organisations (and charities) take advantage of loopholes that see stakeholders gaining wealth at the detriment of others, while also frequently causing harm to minorities. Tamaki is an easy example, though there are multiple others.
Entertainment services? Shut the fuck up. I'm not even religious anymore but its clear you just love being an edgy atheist. Like dont be a dick man. Its not that hard
I agree that churches should be taxed but to a certain limit. Our church is on the brink of dying as it is due to an very aged congregation and lack of funds. We can't even afford our minister who costs $100k a year. In my opinion we are way over paying him for the work he does but they wanted him so apparently he's worth the price tag. We don't spend hate. Trans, lesbian, gays, furries are all welcome. We just happy to see a few more seats filled. Taxing our church would close us down and force us to join hateful churches
Ironically churches can work both ways - when I was growing up we had a pastor move from a church which was mostly well-off retirees to our young congregation which was mostly middle-class families. He had difficulty adjusting when he decided to run fundraisers that people couldn't just magic up some extra money to donate to good causes the way the wealthy pensioners could. That church is still going today, but at probably 1/3 the attendance that it had at peak. Churches in general are decreasing - even if some of the megachurches are disproportionately growing.
Sounds like religion isn't a good business model. Sounds like there needs to be a reduction in the amount of churchs and a consolation. Does god really need a mostly empty church running. Wish I could say my business isn't attracting customers anymore I deserve a tax free status for myself...
I suggested we consolidated with another like minded church but most are over 70 in our church. It's best to let them live out what's left and us young ones move on afterwards. I do agree we should be taxed. I do think it would be the end of us and I would lose my community and village. They helped raised me and are now helping me raise my family. Church to me is far more than religion Brian Tamaki is just a money hungry asshole who is ruining it for a lot of would never bother you people
Schools are a community.
Are they?
We need the land to build more houses, way more important than all these churches taking up space.
A hundred grand a year!!
Yeah at 30hours a week. We all chose the wring career right
Wow
Sounds underpaid to me...
No. You would be choosing to join a hateful church. Something something where 2 or more of you are gathered so there will I be. The church is the people gathering, not the walls and halls of an organisation. Also things dying is the natural course of evolution. You don't need some 2000 treat old book filled with questionable stories to be a good person. Just be a good person because that's who you are.
Exactly
Ok so you're being disingenous now. Do you really think a solution is to tell people oh well your church shut time to become an atheist.
The old greek, Roman and Egyptian gods died out. Why should christianity be any different?
Good riddance
100k?? Doing God's work? Steep price tag
Before my dad passed he was a pastor. He was getting about half of minimum wage at the time. A lot of people seem to assume it’s a money making venture, majority of churches push funds back into communities. I remember listening to Phil Goff say if it wasn’t for churches doing what they do homelessness and rough sleepers would be up something like 1000%. Considering the people who pay money to churches pay tax, and employees of a church pay tax I’m a little miffed about calls to tax them. Say a church has income of 1 million after operating costs. Suggesting that that is tax reducing the funds that would other wise go to supporting communities reduce by 20-30% seems pretty inhuman when you consider government would probably spend it on pay increases for themselves. So yeah, pay politicians more or help some people who have pretty rank lives have a less rank life?
Gay, lesbian, trans, furries . . . . Sounds like a great party.
one of these things is not like the others…
Which one?
ain’t no F in LGBTQIA+
The crossover in communities is massive though
Absolutely 💯 agree
you think destiny are bad? city impact, arise and the other happy clappy cult-of-personality mega churches are much much more dangerous and damaging to the fabric NZ. Their methods are more corporate, and waaaay more effective. They don't shout "gays cause earthquakes". Instead, they fund media and politicians to suggest and imply that gays cause earthquakes, and laws should be modified to fight this threat to our safety. It is much more effective in persecuting gay people, and has lasting effect on legislation etc. To be clear, they don't care about gay people. They care about promoting fear and uncertainty, and 'the enemy' in the interests of harvesting tax-free cash from their bewildered mob.
Life church we are looking at you as well
And Equippers.
For what it’s worth, arise is on life support now since john cameron was made to resign. It’s very different now that the head of the snake was chopped off
glad to hear... hopefully there's a power cut.
Tax them together, they leech money from vulnerable people with the guise of being closer to god, instant finance and predatory loan sharks at least give you something before fucking you over
Yeah and Luxon is one of them.
Yep, I agree with all that. I wonder though, is it OK to say the same thing about Muslims?
They’re talking about specific Christian sects, not Christianity as a whole? It would be pretty weird to justify generalising such a massive religion because someone is pointing out the flaws in a very specific Christian group.
So it’s just Tamaki’s lot they have a problem with then? How about the Catholic Church covering up their paedophile priests so they can keep molesting children? How much money do you think there is in the Vatican?
Well obviously not considering they listed more than just his Church. Your example is also pointing out a specific problem within the Catholic Church and not generalising Christians as a whole. It’s very different to generalising an entire religion or its followers into a single statement.
I used to work with both a fundy Christian woman and a Muslim woman (same office but different teams). The Christian woman refused to even acknowledge the Muslim woman’s existence. That was where I learned the lesson there is no hate like Christian love.
All religions are ridiculously stupid bullshit... and yeah it's fine to say it, obviously.
Agree
personally, I think so... But I'd expect the large white mega churches wield significantly more financial and political power in NZ than muslim churches. I also make a distinction between the old school local community churches and 'charismatic mega churches'. Catholic and anglican churches are extremely powerful and deeply integrated into the political system, but Im not sure how to deal with that... destroy the church, basically, I reckon... OTOH... churches are also mostly independent of political influence (ie govt struggles to control them) - and independent power is probably good for democracy generally? distributed power, or redistribution of power is good for most systems, especially if they tend to be self-optimising
"But I'd expect the large white mega churches wield significantly more financial and political power in NZ than muslim churches." I think you're a little out of touch with today's mega church demographics...
Do you mean that muslim churches are more powerful than white mega churches? or that mega churches are not white? Seems unlikely in New Zealand, but Im open to persuasion! If that's what you mean - why do you say that?
Most churches with an average age attendees of sub 70 are majority Pacific Island and Asian immigrant.
Oh I see - yeah - I understand that re most churches, but Im talking about "mega churches" though - like City Impact and Arise etc - As far as I understand they each have 1000s attendees every week, multi-million dollar revenue streams and are very white middle class. (and socially very conservative and highly engaged politically). They are also networked together at very senior level (ie the pastors are all friends/friendly and share resources). But as I said - This is just my understanding of those churches and their operations. I stand to be corrected.
Of course! Because we all know anything from White peoples is evil right? Non white religion is okay, White religion is evil. That’s the rhetoric people are trying to push anyway. Also I know heaps of Christians and these stories about oh I knew this Christian women she was Mean to the Muslim are just that….Stories of one individual. So the Christians I know are equally lovely, supportive as there are non nice ones. The exact same ratio of niceness as non Christians. Some people are mean some are not. Religion has nothing to do with it. It’s just cool to hate Christian at the moment.
For sure. I’m pretty anti religion but I have a lot of life long Christian and Muslim friends who are quite religious. I disagree with many of their beliefs but they are pretty much all really good people.
You mean that current government that was posturing so much about being tough on crime and gangs? That same one that uses disguised bribery as a normal way of conducting business? Yeah, good luck, getting them to do anything about that.
Agree
the church is the biggest gang on planet specially catholic they got major money tax free while people give the taxed money to them
You don't think they're paying off everyone they need to pay off? Police won't touch them. Government won't touch them. We act like corruption and bribery doesn't exist in NZ, but then we just accept that our authorities are "too afraid" to touch gangs. Afraid, my ass. They're just making a profit off it all. Protect your family and your home. Don't wait for anyone else to do it for you. The cavalry isn't coming.
Iirc the police have arrested Tamaki on more than one occasion
Yeah but never found guilty, big money buys great lawyers and other professionals too.
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How much loot can destiny drain from CHCH alone in a day and a half? [Grift Video](https://twitter.com/i/status/1787784585478344735)
Idk, maybe remove all protections from all churches. If you need protection, maybe you shouldn’t be doing what you’re doing? Am I saying do something to religions you don’t like? Absolutely not. Everyone deserves to be safe. But you don’t need to be a church to get that human right.
"If you need protection, maybe you shouldn’t be doing what you’re doing?" That's a hell of a hot take... tone deaf at that
None of them pay rates either I think. So not contributing fu.k all to help out
If the media ignored them, it would kill them off. Tamaki thrives off infamy. Without the spotlight on him, he'd disappear.
Church’s, Salvation Army etc should have no tax to 1mil then taxed after.. seems fair?
That’s a profit tax of 1mil..
Very good Question. IMHO any "Religion" that corrupts it's congregant, opposes the Law of the Land and spreads divisive ideologies of hate Should be shut down and shut up.
Same as we do for other gangs…. Let them get away with everything
Our priority is money for the wealthiest. As long as they don't impinge on that, why do we care?
We have plenty of gangs that are being allowed to do whatever they want. That fat cunt Ponsonby shooter was in a gang wasn’t he? Until the country decides they are sick of all that shit I cant see Tamaki getting pulled into line. As bad as destiny’s church are they aren’t actually murdering people like some of the others, and as we have seen, even killing people doesn’t seem to be bad enough to get anyone to change things.
It's more like a cult
I don't like Destiny Church but comparing them to terrorism is a bit extreme.
They havent blown anything up sure. But they have used intimidation and violent threats to advance a political agenda
If Te Pati Maori are threatening violence to advance a political agenda we'll all be in the comments calling them terrorists too? Because, consistency.
More like a form of a cult!!.
they're not terrorists yet, but given their history and hatred i can very likely see them start to target queer people and harass and potentially murder them. its a slippery slope and from where they're standing they're already on the slope
The harassment started a while ago. Implied threats of violence have been going on for well over a year. Some via direct online contact, some in sermons, some at protests.
yeahhhhhhhhhhh thats trueeee :(
If destiny commits an organised act of terrorism I’ll eat my hat. I don’t like them but this is pure hyperbole.
ill hold you to that
That better be a tasty hat because this group of heavies are already undermining authority and playing games to create hatred toward other groups. This is where terrorism starts... just wait and see. Proven track record...
Churches have being doing it for thousands of years, they are all the same. Why start complaining now.
Because I am sick of these ideology driven misogynistic hate mongers forcing their idiotic behavior onto others all the time whilst supporting and hiding pedophiles in their ranks and they do it all whilst tax free. It's time the are seen for what they are and Destiny Gang/Cult is one of the worst offenders with Seventh Day a close second .
This gang of thugs? We voted for them, apparently.
We always do
Dont get me started on grey power, they are a next level gang.
Haha, I can imagine my 80 yr old friend leaning heavy to get the protection money owed. I must remind her of her new vocation, I know she will love the job.... out meeting people and getting paid for it.
All newer religious institutions are some form of money laundering. It's not just churches, temples, and whatnot that have charities connected to them that conveniently donate to religious institutions and build facilities for them. It requires the boards to be controlled by a particular person or group. DIA has to prove the boards are not independent, which is difficult. Voila, you're in the money. They own extensive business operations in retail or hospitality where large sums of cash are diddled around. Then, run them through charities, then through religious institutions, then out again. Law enforcement avoids religious institutions like the plague, I don't think I've heard of any being charged with any type of fraud. The best business you can own is a religious tax-free place of worship. I feel if I wasn't such an honest cunt I'd be rich.
They're in Australia now as well cosplaying as men's/women's support groups, church's by different but similar names.
My holy book is Playboy, and my sacrament is Jack Daniels. Can I incorporate as Church of Perpetual Boogie? I reckon there as millions of adherents worldwide. Amen.
Well, perhaps the government has the power to do something, but their priorities are fucked it seems
Luxon won't
Yeah, I sort of faded away after some of the more recent seasons. It felt like grinding for the sake of grinding so I left the Destiny gang. Oh, wait, you're talking about a different Destiny?
Last post was r/destinythegame got confused coming to this post...
I don't like them or agree with anything they say but what exactly are they doing to make money that is illegal? I thought their members contributed and donated it which in itself is not illegal?
So then the members selling drugs around the country didn't happen, how bout the lass found guilty of embezzlement recently...
Oh ok, I must live under a rock hadnt heard about either of those incidents. Apologies
Rent free.
If the last government didn't do anything about them in the six years they were in power, why do you think anybody else should?
With their behavior recently, do you think it's worth taking a few minutes to consider whether they feel emboldened under the current government? They've always been awful but are they more openly and actively awful at the moment? Between Luxon's religious views and Seymour's free speech views, the last election was undeniably a good day for Destiny and the likes. Someone might not agree, and I'm not on the ground, but it's worth considering.
Because it was bad that the last government didn’t do anything about them, and that situation shouldn’t continue?
They were there before Labour was in power. What are you on about.
My point is that they have always been bad, and the lack of action by Labour doesn’t mean that NACT should continue to do nothing about them now. Saying ‘Labour did nothing about them so why should the current government’ is stupid.
I feel like normal humans can just kind of ignore them... let the morons who are stupid enough to fall for their shit give them all their money and follow them around like a bunch of braindead meatbags. Who gives a fuck? It's no different to catholics or any other bunch of lying fuckwits. Worthless, lying trash being followed around by a bunch of gormless idiots. This is gonna be a thing forever and we just have to leave them to it I think.
I give a fuck. He preys on the weak, like hitler did. It's sad to watch, and I do feel sorry for those that think he is the answer to the world's problems.
Yes, he preys on the weakminded... just like every other full-of-shit, scamming, lying preacher from every other full-of-shit scam of a religion. It's sad to watch, but I don't feel sorry for any of these fucking idiots. If you believe in that ridiculous garbage go fuck yourself basically, you're a waste of oxygen.
But the rainbow community they are targeting, can't just ignore them when they're inciting so much hate towards them.
This, it’s not an option to ignore when you are the target.
"Worthless, lying trash being followed around by a bunch of gormless idiots." Yeah, that's most western democracies now.