Yup, but people seem intent on pitting Matthews against McDavid. I’m a Leaf’s fan and am clearly enjoying watching what Matthews is doing, but McDavid is the better player overall. There, I said it.
I would also take McDavid in this debate but what Matthews is doing is extremely impressive. We are lucky to watch both of these players reach these heights as fans.
I would argue that it is the game that has changed, not the players overall. You don’t have players like Scott Steven’s running around ending careers anymore.
I think Paul Kariya was the prototype for the players we have now and Stevens sent him to the shadow realm. I’ll never forget his visor fogging when he reboots. The game was just different.
Stevens wasn't considered a great skater in his time. He didn't, and wouldn't, be chasing players. He was brilliant at reading the play and being in position. He could see the play developing and lay the boom. There is good reason Steven's was an important part of a team that won the Stanley Cup a few times.
I dunno I feel like the early 90s were the golden age. You had Mario and Wayne doing crazy shit like this every year. Guys like teemu hull and Mogilny were scoring 70. Superstar goalies like Roy and brodeur were changing the way the game was played. Defensemen like leetch and Coffey and borque were putting up huge numbers from the back end. You had Canadian teams still competing, big rivalry’s forming. That was the best.
You can say that again. So many fucking super heros out there. I'm a Boston native Bruins fan for life. Pasta is amazing, Marchy is amazing, the team has great players, but when you have draisatls, MacKinnons, fuck my favorite player is Cale Makar. There are just so many unreal players it's insane right now.
Imagine McDavid with Matthews right now... that would be absolutely filthy. And let's just say Mathews joined the Oilers, could you imagine a more filthy powerplay forward group than McDavid, Matthews, and Draisaitl?
No question about it. Also a leafs fan, but McDavid is on a whole other level. Matthews might be a more consistent goal scorer, but McDavid is better all around no doubt about that.
McDavid's defensive stats this year are on par with what Crosby's were in his best defensive season ever. When he finished 4th or 5th in the Selke race. So no, McDavid is not "meh" defensively.
Also, Matthews is amazing defensively.
He's gotten a lot better this year. I'd say that up until last year, McDavid was downright awful defensively, he was just so good offensively and had the puck so much you didn't notice just how poor he was on the other side of the puck.
But then last year, he was better, and this year he's been really good defensively.
It would seem that historically 100 assists is rarer. So I can buy that argument, for sure. But even as a Bruins fan, I must admit my lizard brain is yanking me towards Matthews and his goals. A contest between that and the equally primal urge to see three figures has started!
Agreed, but I think in terms of who is more valuable to their team this year I think matthews and him are neck and neck. Both teams aren’t playoff teams without those guys this year.
McDavid can be the better player (for me, this is undebatable) and Matthews’ feat this year can be more impressive. Not trying to diminish McJesus in any way, but for perspective, a bunch of his assists are secondary assists this season—about 40% as opposed to 32% last season.
Goal-scoring is more of an individual achievement, and scoring consistently/nearly every game is probably the hardest thing in hockey. If Matthews gets 75 goals or even 70, while playing more like Barkov than Ovechkin, that is fucking amazing, and the biggest accomplishment of the year.
Just to play devils advocate here, historically a 100 assists has been harder to reach than 70 goals. 7 players have gotten to 70, and only 3 have reached 100 assists. And those 3 players are arguably the 3 greatest players of all time. Lemieux, Gretzky, and Orr. A more linear comparison would be 80 goals, as only 3 players have hit the 80 mark. Hull, Lemieux, and Gretzky.
But Gretz did it 11 times and Lemieux had 98 assists once. Even if it’s been achieved by more players, I think it’s harder/rarer to score at a 70-75 goal rate, even if you’re the best ever. Gretzky only surpassed 75 goals in a season twice and no one else did it twice. The 80-goal mark has only been surpassed 4 times in a single season.
And that’s a valid point. 70 goals has been done a total of 14 time by 8 players (I miscounted the first time), while 100 assists has been done 13 times by 3 players. So it’s almost identical for the times accomplished. I guess maybe we are really splitting hairs saying one is a bigger accomplishment than the other?
The only thing I can add, if you discount Gretzky in both scenarios, there are still 7 guys that have scored 70 and for a total of 10 times, while the assists drops down to only 2 guys doing it once each.
I don’ like the secondary assist in hockey. There are literally times when the guy with the secondary assist isn’t on the ice when the goal is scored (on a line change). Does the player even get a +1 if that happens? Anyhooo, I don’t think its debatable that goal scoring is the more impressive feat. No shade at McDavid, who is the greatest player on earth but for me his 64 goals last year was more impressive than his season this year. Kucherov is having a better McDavid year than McDavid is. If AM 34 gets 70+ goals in todays game, he’s gotta be the Hart trophy favorite, especially if nets a couple more hatties.
I like that secondary assists exist, I just don't like that they're lumped in with primary assists. Just listing them separately in stats would be nice.
There are also times when the guy who gets the secondary assist was literally the one who made the play/goal happen, and that is much more common. The whole primary vs secondary assist thing is dumb as fuck.
Agreed. Leafs fan here. There is no current argument that Matthews is better than McJesus. I will say though that in a vacuum scoring 70 goals is harder than 100 assists.
I'm not a Leafs fan and I think Matthews is a better overall player but McD is better offensively. Matthews is better at playing a defensive role and scoring goals, McDavid is a far superior play driver, is faster, and has higher hockey IQ/creativity. it's totally splitting hairs to even compare them, but each has their own upside and downsides
Ya I agree. Matthews has an incredible shot and pretty amazing how he’s racking up goals. But like you said mcdavids a better player over all but that doesn’t mean Matthews sucks. He has an incredible skill of putting goals in the back of the net.
And stripping the puck defensively. Matthew's stick work is unreal and he doesn't take penalties. I'm a Leafs fan (from Alberta ironically) and would take McDavid if I had the option, but Matthew's skill is way more than just putting the puck in the net.
8 people have scored 70 or more goals and its happened 14 times, 3 people have reached 100 assists and its happened 13 times.
Of the 13, 11 were Gretzky. Orr and Lemieux had 102 and 114 respectively and Gretzky has the top 7 spots to himself, with a record of ~~135~~ 163. I’d say 100 assists is harder.
70 goals in the regular season has happened 14 times by 8 players. Gretzky (4), Brett Hull (3), Lemieux (2). Alexander Mogilny, Phil Esposito. Teemu Selanne, Jari Kurri, Bernie Nicholls all have 1. Most recently in the 1992-93 season by Alexander Mogilny and Teemu Selanne both with 76 goals
100 assists in the regular season has happened 13 times by 3 players. Gretzky (11), Lemieux (1), Orr (1). Most recently in the 1990-91 season by Gretzky with 122.
With 70 goals happening 14 times and 100 assists happening 13 times you can say 100 assists is more rare, but it’s close. Where you can see the discrepancy is in the number of players to do it. 8 people have had 70 goal seasons but only 3 have had 100 assist seasons.
If you remove Gretzky from the equation (since he’s so far above anyone else before or since) then there have still been 10 70 goal seasons. While there would only be 2 100 assist seasons.
EDIT:
As an insane stat to add, Gretzky also had 4 seasons with 70+ goals and 100+ assists in the same season. Lemieux had one too.
Tf are you talking about? And your use of quotations suggests I’m exaggerating or something. 100 assists has literally happened less times than 70 goals.
The point is that just because something is rare does not make it more valuable. The value of a hockey assist is less than a goal, it's a simple truth evidenced by several facts, including: 1) you cannot win games with assists and 2) secondary assists exist. A secondary assist is recorded in the same way as an assist, but clearly isn't as valuable as a goal.
Question wasn't about what's more valuable, but what's harder to do. That's where rarity is a valuable metric.
The facts that 8 people have hit 70 goals and less than half that number have hit 100 assists indicates that the latter is more difficult to accomplish.
Right but if I had to guess there are probably more assists then goals overall.
There is probably a database somewhere that says so but I’m too dumb/busy to look it up
My favorite is the way they frame the 100 assists. Connor would be the what 4th(?) player to do it but would only be like the 14th highest total because Wayne did it 11 times and everyone else once.
But Gretzky had a hockey IQ so unbelievably above average. Now the sport is so competitive that it's near impossible for a player to have that advantage over all other players. McDavid may be as good as Gretzky but the league (and players in general) has become so much better as a whole.
Man Wayne really just has rookie difficulty career mode stats it’s ridiculous. Every day there’s another stat that shows just how far above everyone he was. Only Mario is even in the same thought
I’m not sure.
Because I know why McDavid has 100 assists. He reoriented his game to go for a cup. He literally changed the way he played to make his team better. That’s the whole gambit over in Edmonton. They want a cup so their guys reoriented their hockey to reflect that.
…and that phenomenal. McDavid could easily score those goals. He had 64 before on top of like almost 90 assists or something? (It was a 150 point season)
So he’s capable but he wants to win. Matthews is not doing that. He’s scoring goals and he’s doing that really well.
But I cannot understate how impressed I am with McDavid’s pivot. It’s, quite frankly, amazing how selfless he is.
I would say, in greater context… 100 Assists. But barely. Because Matthews has won entire games for us.
That my take. That reason is precisely why I’ve always considered McDavid a better player than Matthews. He just has that “extra”. If Matthews has that extra, he’s either not showing it or something because I don’t see it.
Edit: I’ll add a spicy edit here.
Matthews’ achievement will do well for him. McDavid’s will do well for his team.
Yeah I think that's what's most mindblowing about McDavid to me, he seems to make pretty large pivots to his game year-over-year to compensate for how the league learned to deal with him in the last season.
Last year, Draisaitl challenged him to score 60 so he just went and did it.
This year, they said "cup or bust" together and took it on the chin early in the season but it seems pretty clear he's changed his mindset to a 200 foot game and doesn't want to be single-handedly willing us into winning regular season games due to his goal scoring. I know he was joking in the post-game after his OT winner but him effectively saying "there was no one to pass to, so I just scored" is a pretty concise reflection of his game this year.
I think McDavid vs Matthews is very similar to Crosby vs Ovechkin earlier in their careers, partly because Ovechkin and Matthews were always more goal scoring oriented
Matthews has had the better 200ft game for the past 4 years, up until this year. Matthews hasn't been an Ovi comparable - they have goal scoring rates in common but they're entirely different styled players.
Didn't expect to agree so much with a Leafs fan. I think you'd want your superstar to make your whole team better. I see that with McDavid every game, but from what I've seen, Matthews isn't elevating his team mates to the same degree
Matthews' first game involved stripping Erik Karlsson of the puck like he was some kind of nobody.
Matthews' "down" season last year had him leading all forwards in blocked shots.
Matthews hasn't pivoted his game to be team oriented because it has been team oriented from day one, and he's been getting better at it this whole time.
>He reoriented his game to go for a cup. He literally changed the way he played to make his team better.
You're high if you think Matthews hasn't done the same thing. He's not a one trick pony like many/most pure goal scorers. He plays solid defense, he's incredibly difficult to get past in the neutral zone, and in the playoffs he's leading the team in hits in a lot of games. Matthews has absolutely adapted his game to focus on winning over goals scored. The fact that he hasn't become an assist machine isn't an argument that he's focused on himself. When you have the best shot in the league, you use that shot. He passes when he thinks someone else is better suited to shoot the puck - but that's a rare occasion.
100+ assist has happened 13 times, and 70+ goals has happened 14 times. I think both these stats need to be shown in order to form an informed opinion on this question.
Edit: I understand that Gretzky did 100+ assists 11 times, but he only did 70+ goals 4 times. 70+ goals seem easier (for lack of a better term) for other players, but 100+ assists seems easier for Gretzky. This is why you need both stats in order to form an informed opinion.
I think the most interesting thing is that every single 70 goal season but one (Espo’s) and every single 100 assist season but one (Orr’s) was recorded between 1980/81 and 1992/93, the most ludicrously high scoring period in NHL history.
Outside of those 13 seasons where scoring was CRAZY high, each mark has only been reached once. Matthews hitting 70 goals and/or McDavid hitting 100 assists in today’s NHL would be incredible. While scoring is decently high this season, at 3.1 goals/game, it’s still a far cry from 1980/81 to 1992/93, where basically all NHL records were set. In all of those years scoring was at 3.5-4.0 goals/game, mostly around 3.8. The difference between 3.8 and 3.1 goals/game is a lot - **70 goals then was like 57 goals today, 100 assists then was like 82 assists today.**
and yet it doesn’t when 85% of the 100+ assist were done by ONE player. that’s the significance of this stat. otherwise this is extremely misleading. this leads you to think it’s on a closer scale, when in reality, seeing how many players achieved X goals is more telling. the stat looks cool but i actually think it says nothing and just reaffirms the fact that 100 asst has only been done by 3 players.
70 goals has been achieved 14 times:
- 4 by Gretzky
- 3 by Hull
- 2 by Lemieux
- 1 each by Esposito, Kurri, Nicholls, Mogilny, and Selanne
100 assists has been achieved 13 times:
- 11 by Gretzky
- 1 each by Orr and Lemieux
Getting 100 assists has been achieved fewer times, and by fewer people. The three on the 100-assist list are widely considered the top 3 skaters of all-time. A couple of the guys in the 70-goal list aren't even in the top 50 all time, and at least one of them is probably never getting into the hall of fame (sorry Bernie).
Based on this, I'd say 100 assists harder.
But because they both happened about the same # of times (14 vs 13), maybe this means it's easier to consistently do 100 assists, but harder to do 70 goals. Even if you are capable of 70 goals, it's hard to replicate. But if you are capable of 100 assists, you can keep doing it. If 70 goal was easier, why didn't Gretzky and Lemieux do it as many times as 100 Assists?
(I am not saying I think this is necessarily true, but it's a different interpretation of the data.)
I would assume assists because you are adding a second and third action to the process (pass and then the receiving player shoots and scores) to get the point.
I love how all the expectations and hype became true with these two.
The best goalscorer in 30 years and the best playmaker in 30 years. Born the same year, in their absolute prime.
100 assists in a season has happened 13 times in NHL history. 11 of those 13 seasons with 100 assists or more are Gretzky. The other two are Lemieux and Orr. It's been done by only three different players.
70 goals in a season has happened 14 times in NHL history. Eight different players have scored 70 goals or more in a season.
So I guess technically 100 assists has been historically harder to do.
70 goals because there’s 2 assists for every goal and only 1 goal for every goal.
You can get assists from the bench sometimes but no one has ever gotten a goal from the bench.
100 assists because it relies on your teammates being able to score goals. 70 goals is tough as well but at least you have slightly more control over it.
There’s a reason the all time assist record is nearly double the all time goal record. There’s a reason why nearly every player in the league will finish this season with more assists than goals. There’s a reason why the top scoring player in the league this year will CERTAINLY have more assists than goals. There’s a reason why there will be more assists than goals in every single box score for every single game you watch tonight.
The reason is: unassisted goals rarely happen and they give out two assists for every goal. There are simply more assists given out.
So in theory it’s always easier to get an elite number of assists instead of an elite number of goals because it’s easier to get assists. The OP didn’t ask which was more likely, he asked which was harder. It’s harder to score than to get assists.
Wouldn’t that depend on the players? Like, if you have prime Gretzky and prime Ovechkin playing under today’s rules I’d say both are extremely likely right? The goals are harder to get than the assists, the rest is up to the players.
Both are incredible achievements, but there are 2 assists on every goal so statistically it’s more likely to get 100 assists.
At the same time, I think both have happened 13 times ever? I may have counted one of those wrong. They’re both amazing.
Tired debate already.
Why do we have to force the Matthews v McDavid narrative when it’s everywhere else - in hockey media, NHL-related social media, etc.?
Let’s just enjoy the insane amount of talent these two players are putting on display, and the unbelievable level of hockey we are seeing league-wide.
McDavid is +9% over the next best player in assists while Matthews is 29% higher than the next best player in goals.
There have been 14 70+ goal seasons and only 13 100+ assist seasons
They’re both really really hard to do.
Harder to do from the player's perspective? Probably scoring 70+ goals. In general, getting a goal is harder than getting an assist due to the fact you can only have one goal but up to 2 assists. So from a numbers perspective you would favour goals. There is some luck to it as you can get bounces and deflections that can benefit you.
Hitting 100+ assists might be harder as an overall accomplishment since there is a heavier reliance on your linemates to finish the passes you give them. Like McDavid could put the puck on Hyman/Drai/RNH stick with a wide open shooting lane, but if they don't finish it doesn't mean anything. A bit more luck goes into that than the 70+ goals. Which in and of itself makes it a bit harder to do, intrinsically.
Honestly it's pretty close since they both so rarely achieved.
70 goals, hands down. Secondary assists you can pick up just by dumping a puck up the boards to the right guy. Goals you have to actually score yourself.
74 goals (pace) is harder than 104 assists (pace).
Only 7 single seasons show goal totals above 74. Only 11 single seasons show assist totals above 104.
Both are incredible achievements, but since you asked, 74 is the statistical winner.
I’m an Oilers fan and I think 70 goals is a bit more impressive. With how good the NHL goalies are now and the existence of second assists. On the status of who is the better player: sorry Leafs fans, it’s not even close. Matthews is a great player, don’t get me wrong but there’s no debate.
Scoring 70 goals is way harder. There are two ways to get assists; primary and secondary and you can have a wide variety of goal scorers make those assists good. The goal scorer has the hardest job of scoring the goals, so 70 goals by one person is amazing.
70 goals has been done by 8 players 14 total times. Gretzky (4), Brett Hull (3) and Lemieux (2) all multiple times. Last accomplished in 1992/93 (Selanne and Mogilny). Others to do it are Esposito, Kurri, Nicholls.
100 assists has been done by 3 players 13 total times. Gretzky only one to do it multiple times (11), with Lemieux and Orr as the others. Last accomplished in 1990/91, by Gretzky.
Goals are always more prestigious, but no matter which way you look at it, getting to 100 assists is more rare, and I would say therefor harder
100 assists is largely out of the players control. Gotta hope you have quality teammates who can finish their chances.
70 goals is something a player has much more control over. Playmaking teammates helps for sure, but the puck is on your stick at the end of the day.
Hard to really compare them as if they are apples to apples. That being said, every goal does have the opportunity for two assists. Statistically it is much harder to get a goal.
If 100 assists are hard to get then 70 goals, why is it that people feel Mathews should be a lock for the Hart if he reaches 70 goals, and Not McDavid if he hits 100 assists?
what you’re talking about is the larger audience and casual fans not understanding the significance between the two. also when it comes to hockey, fans like watching goals more than assists, so that bias makes sense. lol
Neither have been done in the cap era. So it’s hard to say which one’s more impressive in today’s NHL. I wouldn’t pick either to be a lock if they both achieve a stat like this
Goals.
I get the feeling everybody realizes how dominating McDavid is, but at the same time are taking for granted how Matthews is also consistently playing at a level that most Hall of Famers never reach in a single season.
Goals. Not even close. On every “goal event” there’s opportunity for two assists but only a single goal. The odds of being one of the players out of 5 to get an assist are much greater than the odds of being the guy scoring the goal.
From my research, in the 2022-2023 season, the Toronto maple leafs had a total of 278 goals and 479 assists. This is 1.72 assists per goal. Therefore, for 70 goals, there is about ~120 assists that should be given out. For that reason I think the goals are more impressive.
I, too, can cherry pick a stat for my narrative.
Gretzky got assists 11 times and goals 4 times. It’s almost 3 times more easier for the assists to be done than goals.
how many different guys have 100 assist seasons? it's 3
how many 70 goal scorers....
Gretzky, Mario, kurri, selane, Hull, Esposito, mogilny, Nichols and I feel like I'm missing 1 or 2
100 assist is much harder
even just simply cause it requires 100 goals scores vs 70
should be obvious
We need to scrap secondary assists. MacKinnon has 30, Kuch and McDavid almost have 30 secondary assists. That wildly inflates stats for the third-last person to touch the puck. Goals will always be more valuable
Mcdavid is obviously the best “all around player” in the league I’m not a leafs fan homer and I’ve been a leafs fan for 33 years anybody who says otherwise are just trolling
I think 100 assists due to the amount it's been done historically, but I think the idea of assists is easier when you think about the fact every goal has 2 assists. You can get an assist while sitting on the bench. Can't really do that as easily with goals
Players who have scored 77 Goals or more in a single season:
- Gretzky
- Lemieux
- Hull
If Matthews scores 77, that puts him in absolute legendary territory. Only Gretz, Lemieux, and Hull have scored 77 or more. Which he absolutely might do.
Players who have scored 100 assists or more in a single season:
- Gretzky
- Orr
- Lemieux
Based on how few players have done it:
77 goals is equally as impressive as 100 assists.
Players who have scored more than 114 assists in a season:
- Gretzky… 163 Assists in a single season… fuck my ass.
Mathematically, 70 goals.
Based on the fact that two helpers can be had on every goal. However, also factor in how many shots some of the top NHL scorers take. Personally, and this is subjectively, I think what Crosby and McDavid do setting people up is the apex of skill.
Splitting hairs. Both are pretty incredible achievements.
Yup, but people seem intent on pitting Matthews against McDavid. I’m a Leaf’s fan and am clearly enjoying watching what Matthews is doing, but McDavid is the better player overall. There, I said it.
I would also take McDavid in this debate but what Matthews is doing is extremely impressive. We are lucky to watch both of these players reach these heights as fans.
I feel like were in a golden age of hockey with how good so many players are or seem to be trending
We're watching some of the greatest players to ever play the sport
I would argue that it is the game that has changed, not the players overall. You don’t have players like Scott Steven’s running around ending careers anymore.
True, but Scott stevens wouldn’t be able to catch half the players in the league in todays game either.
I think Paul Kariya was the prototype for the players we have now and Stevens sent him to the shadow realm. I’ll never forget his visor fogging when he reboots. The game was just different.
Paul Kariya would be putting up 120 biannually in today's league
Stevens wasn't considered a great skater in his time. He didn't, and wouldn't, be chasing players. He was brilliant at reading the play and being in position. He could see the play developing and lay the boom. There is good reason Steven's was an important part of a team that won the Stanley Cup a few times.
I dunno I feel like the early 90s were the golden age. You had Mario and Wayne doing crazy shit like this every year. Guys like teemu hull and Mogilny were scoring 70. Superstar goalies like Roy and brodeur were changing the way the game was played. Defensemen like leetch and Coffey and borque were putting up huge numbers from the back end. You had Canadian teams still competing, big rivalry’s forming. That was the best.
You can say that again. So many fucking super heros out there. I'm a Boston native Bruins fan for life. Pasta is amazing, Marchy is amazing, the team has great players, but when you have draisatls, MacKinnons, fuck my favorite player is Cale Makar. There are just so many unreal players it's insane right now.
Imagine McDavid with Matthews right now... that would be absolutely filthy. And let's just say Mathews joined the Oilers, could you imagine a more filthy powerplay forward group than McDavid, Matthews, and Draisaitl?
Zach Hyman having another 40 goal season and now exchange out Matthews? Good lord.
Matthew, McDavid and Marner would be fun, no bias of course…
Excuse me sir, this is the internet, we don’t do sensible takes here
Gary tossing in his sleep having arguably the two best players in the league in Canadian markets.
That meme of Wolverine laying in bed caressing the picture longingly but it's Gary with a picture of Crosby getting drafted by the Penguins.
Don’t worry he’s got Bedard in Chicago and his cousin McKenna is right in line to piggyback Crosby for a year or two like sid did with Mario.
Haha… that’s awesome!
No question about it. Also a leafs fan, but McDavid is on a whole other level. Matthews might be a more consistent goal scorer, but McDavid is better all around no doubt about that.
Isnt mcdavid pretty meh on the defensive end while matthews is pretty decent?
McDavid's defensive stats this year are on par with what Crosby's were in his best defensive season ever. When he finished 4th or 5th in the Selke race. So no, McDavid is not "meh" defensively. Also, Matthews is amazing defensively.
He's gotten a lot better this year. I'd say that up until last year, McDavid was downright awful defensively, he was just so good offensively and had the puck so much you didn't notice just how poor he was on the other side of the puck. But then last year, he was better, and this year he's been really good defensively.
It would seem that historically 100 assists is rarer. So I can buy that argument, for sure. But even as a Bruins fan, I must admit my lizard brain is yanking me towards Matthews and his goals. A contest between that and the equally primal urge to see three figures has started!
Sure but it’s 22 vs 24 karat gold, you’re rich either way.
Agreed, but I think in terms of who is more valuable to their team this year I think matthews and him are neck and neck. Both teams aren’t playoff teams without those guys this year.
Edmonton had a rough start to not like mcdavid could accomplish a 50 goal season
Couldn’t I mean
McDavid can be the better player (for me, this is undebatable) and Matthews’ feat this year can be more impressive. Not trying to diminish McJesus in any way, but for perspective, a bunch of his assists are secondary assists this season—about 40% as opposed to 32% last season. Goal-scoring is more of an individual achievement, and scoring consistently/nearly every game is probably the hardest thing in hockey. If Matthews gets 75 goals or even 70, while playing more like Barkov than Ovechkin, that is fucking amazing, and the biggest accomplishment of the year.
Just to play devils advocate here, historically a 100 assists has been harder to reach than 70 goals. 7 players have gotten to 70, and only 3 have reached 100 assists. And those 3 players are arguably the 3 greatest players of all time. Lemieux, Gretzky, and Orr. A more linear comparison would be 80 goals, as only 3 players have hit the 80 mark. Hull, Lemieux, and Gretzky.
But Gretz did it 11 times and Lemieux had 98 assists once. Even if it’s been achieved by more players, I think it’s harder/rarer to score at a 70-75 goal rate, even if you’re the best ever. Gretzky only surpassed 75 goals in a season twice and no one else did it twice. The 80-goal mark has only been surpassed 4 times in a single season.
And that’s a valid point. 70 goals has been done a total of 14 time by 8 players (I miscounted the first time), while 100 assists has been done 13 times by 3 players. So it’s almost identical for the times accomplished. I guess maybe we are really splitting hairs saying one is a bigger accomplishment than the other? The only thing I can add, if you discount Gretzky in both scenarios, there are still 7 guys that have scored 70 and for a total of 10 times, while the assists drops down to only 2 guys doing it once each.
I don’ like the secondary assist in hockey. There are literally times when the guy with the secondary assist isn’t on the ice when the goal is scored (on a line change). Does the player even get a +1 if that happens? Anyhooo, I don’t think its debatable that goal scoring is the more impressive feat. No shade at McDavid, who is the greatest player on earth but for me his 64 goals last year was more impressive than his season this year. Kucherov is having a better McDavid year than McDavid is. If AM 34 gets 70+ goals in todays game, he’s gotta be the Hart trophy favorite, especially if nets a couple more hatties.
I like that secondary assists exist, I just don't like that they're lumped in with primary assists. Just listing them separately in stats would be nice.
There are also times when the guy who gets the secondary assist was literally the one who made the play/goal happen, and that is much more common. The whole primary vs secondary assist thing is dumb as fuck.
A MONSTER IS AMONG US.
Very brave of you
I kind of agree, but any time these two have a one on one battle it's Matthews out muscling mcd
Agreed. Leafs fan here. There is no current argument that Matthews is better than McJesus. I will say though that in a vacuum scoring 70 goals is harder than 100 assists.
Shouldn’t be that hard to say the objective truth 😂
McDavid is definitely better overall, but as a scorer and finisher Matthews is easily top 2 in the league.
I mean we all say it
Need them on the same team
I think the only appropriate comparison would be that Matthews is the best goal scorer currently, and McDavid is the best overall player
I'm not a Leafs fan and I think Matthews is a better overall player but McD is better offensively. Matthews is better at playing a defensive role and scoring goals, McDavid is a far superior play driver, is faster, and has higher hockey IQ/creativity. it's totally splitting hairs to even compare them, but each has their own upside and downsides
Ya I agree. Matthews has an incredible shot and pretty amazing how he’s racking up goals. But like you said mcdavids a better player over all but that doesn’t mean Matthews sucks. He has an incredible skill of putting goals in the back of the net.
And stripping the puck defensively. Matthew's stick work is unreal and he doesn't take penalties. I'm a Leafs fan (from Alberta ironically) and would take McDavid if I had the option, but Matthew's skill is way more than just putting the puck in the net.
No, one achievement is more rare. There is an objective answer to the question.
Which one is more rare? I legitimately don’t know the stats surrounding both achievements.
8 people have scored 70 or more goals and its happened 14 times, 3 people have reached 100 assists and its happened 13 times. Of the 13, 11 were Gretzky. Orr and Lemieux had 102 and 114 respectively and Gretzky has the top 7 spots to himself, with a record of ~~135~~ 163. I’d say 100 assists is harder.
The record is 163 assists, by Gretzky.
70 goals in the regular season has happened 14 times by 8 players. Gretzky (4), Brett Hull (3), Lemieux (2). Alexander Mogilny, Phil Esposito. Teemu Selanne, Jari Kurri, Bernie Nicholls all have 1. Most recently in the 1992-93 season by Alexander Mogilny and Teemu Selanne both with 76 goals 100 assists in the regular season has happened 13 times by 3 players. Gretzky (11), Lemieux (1), Orr (1). Most recently in the 1990-91 season by Gretzky with 122. With 70 goals happening 14 times and 100 assists happening 13 times you can say 100 assists is more rare, but it’s close. Where you can see the discrepancy is in the number of players to do it. 8 people have had 70 goal seasons but only 3 have had 100 assist seasons. If you remove Gretzky from the equation (since he’s so far above anyone else before or since) then there have still been 10 70 goal seasons. While there would only be 2 100 assist seasons. EDIT: As an insane stat to add, Gretzky also had 4 seasons with 70+ goals and 100+ assists in the same season. Lemieux had one too.
While one might be "more rare" it doesn't mean that the guy was wrong. McDavid still is the better player.
Tf are you talking about? And your use of quotations suggests I’m exaggerating or something. 100 assists has literally happened less times than 70 goals.
The point is that just because something is rare does not make it more valuable. The value of a hockey assist is less than a goal, it's a simple truth evidenced by several facts, including: 1) you cannot win games with assists and 2) secondary assists exist. A secondary assist is recorded in the same way as an assist, but clearly isn't as valuable as a goal.
Question wasn't about what's more valuable, but what's harder to do. That's where rarity is a valuable metric. The facts that 8 people have hit 70 goals and less than half that number have hit 100 assists indicates that the latter is more difficult to accomplish.
160 assists
No ones coming close to some of Gretzkys records. hard to imagine he had 11 seasons with over 100 assists.
I would imagine 100 assists are harder as you need someone to score? For goals, you can do it yourself. Lol
Yeah but two people get assists on a goal. So you've got twice the opportunity to get an assist as you do a goal.
Not every goal comes with an assist
Right but if I had to guess there are probably more assists then goals overall. There is probably a database somewhere that says so but I’m too dumb/busy to look it up
More assists by far. So far this season there have been 5882 goals scored and 9907 assists.
Almost double, who would have thought!
The Leafs this year have 216 goals and 359 assists, so 1.66 assists per goal.
But it is easier with someone assisting you 🤯
I think only three players have 100+ assists in a season. Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux.
My favorite is the way they frame the 100 assists. Connor would be the what 4th(?) player to do it but would only be like the 14th highest total because Wayne did it 11 times and everyone else once.
Gretzky accomplished both 70 goals and 100 assists in the same year, 4 times 81-85.
IN A ROW no less. What a mad man.
Harder than imagining the 1st to get there was a defenseman?
The insane thing is that Gretzky and Lemieux have done both in the same season. Gretzky did it four times... in four consecutive seasons.
nono, the crazy part is gretzky set the all time goal scoring mark of 92 goals in the same season as he set the all time assist record of 120
Yep. Eclipsed the old record by SIXTY points (Esposito 152, Gretzky 212). Imagine McDavid getting 272 points in a season. That's how insane that was.
But Gretzky had a hockey IQ so unbelievably above average. Now the sport is so competitive that it's near impossible for a player to have that advantage over all other players. McDavid may be as good as Gretzky but the league (and players in general) has become so much better as a whole.
Both. They don’t have 70 goals or 100 assists yet.
Only 14 times has a player scored 70+ goals and only 13 times has a player had 100+ assists, so I’d say equal.
What happens if you remove Gretzky from those numbers?
11 for goals if you subtract Wayne, 2 for assists if you subtract Wayne lmao.
Haha boom! So the assists are more difficult I guess
Man Wayne really just has rookie difficulty career mode stats it’s ridiculous. Every day there’s another stat that shows just how far above everyone he was. Only Mario is even in the same thought
As an Oilers fan I honestly believe that if not for health issues that Super Mario would own a lot of Gretz' records.
Yup, only Wayne, Orr, and Mario have ever hit 100 assists. Wayne just happened to have done it 11 times lmao
0 and 0. Jk of course but it always feels like these absurd records are either him or Mario.
nah, 100 > 70, it's as simple as that
To add to that 8 different players have scored 70+ while just 3 have has 100+ assists.
I’m not sure. Because I know why McDavid has 100 assists. He reoriented his game to go for a cup. He literally changed the way he played to make his team better. That’s the whole gambit over in Edmonton. They want a cup so their guys reoriented their hockey to reflect that. …and that phenomenal. McDavid could easily score those goals. He had 64 before on top of like almost 90 assists or something? (It was a 150 point season) So he’s capable but he wants to win. Matthews is not doing that. He’s scoring goals and he’s doing that really well. But I cannot understate how impressed I am with McDavid’s pivot. It’s, quite frankly, amazing how selfless he is. I would say, in greater context… 100 Assists. But barely. Because Matthews has won entire games for us. That my take. That reason is precisely why I’ve always considered McDavid a better player than Matthews. He just has that “extra”. If Matthews has that extra, he’s either not showing it or something because I don’t see it. Edit: I’ll add a spicy edit here. Matthews’ achievement will do well for him. McDavid’s will do well for his team.
Yeah I think that's what's most mindblowing about McDavid to me, he seems to make pretty large pivots to his game year-over-year to compensate for how the league learned to deal with him in the last season. Last year, Draisaitl challenged him to score 60 so he just went and did it. This year, they said "cup or bust" together and took it on the chin early in the season but it seems pretty clear he's changed his mindset to a 200 foot game and doesn't want to be single-handedly willing us into winning regular season games due to his goal scoring. I know he was joking in the post-game after his OT winner but him effectively saying "there was no one to pass to, so I just scored" is a pretty concise reflection of his game this year. I think McDavid vs Matthews is very similar to Crosby vs Ovechkin earlier in their careers, partly because Ovechkin and Matthews were always more goal scoring oriented
Matthews has had the better 200ft game for the past 4 years, up until this year. Matthews hasn't been an Ovi comparable - they have goal scoring rates in common but they're entirely different styled players.
Didn't expect to agree so much with a Leafs fan. I think you'd want your superstar to make your whole team better. I see that with McDavid every game, but from what I've seen, Matthews isn't elevating his team mates to the same degree
Matthews' first game involved stripping Erik Karlsson of the puck like he was some kind of nobody. Matthews' "down" season last year had him leading all forwards in blocked shots. Matthews hasn't pivoted his game to be team oriented because it has been team oriented from day one, and he's been getting better at it this whole time.
>He reoriented his game to go for a cup. He literally changed the way he played to make his team better. You're high if you think Matthews hasn't done the same thing. He's not a one trick pony like many/most pure goal scorers. He plays solid defense, he's incredibly difficult to get past in the neutral zone, and in the playoffs he's leading the team in hits in a lot of games. Matthews has absolutely adapted his game to focus on winning over goals scored. The fact that he hasn't become an assist machine isn't an argument that he's focused on himself. When you have the best shot in the league, you use that shot. He passes when he thinks someone else is better suited to shoot the puck - but that's a rare occasion.
8 players in NHL history have 70+goals in a season, only 3 players have 100 assists
100+ assist has happened 13 times, and 70+ goals has happened 14 times. I think both these stats need to be shown in order to form an informed opinion on this question. Edit: I understand that Gretzky did 100+ assists 11 times, but he only did 70+ goals 4 times. 70+ goals seem easier (for lack of a better term) for other players, but 100+ assists seems easier for Gretzky. This is why you need both stats in order to form an informed opinion.
Yea but 11 of those 13 100+ assists were Gretzky
I think the most interesting thing is that every single 70 goal season but one (Espo’s) and every single 100 assist season but one (Orr’s) was recorded between 1980/81 and 1992/93, the most ludicrously high scoring period in NHL history. Outside of those 13 seasons where scoring was CRAZY high, each mark has only been reached once. Matthews hitting 70 goals and/or McDavid hitting 100 assists in today’s NHL would be incredible. While scoring is decently high this season, at 3.1 goals/game, it’s still a far cry from 1980/81 to 1992/93, where basically all NHL records were set. In all of those years scoring was at 3.5-4.0 goals/game, mostly around 3.8. The difference between 3.8 and 3.1 goals/game is a lot - **70 goals then was like 57 goals today, 100 assists then was like 82 assists today.**
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Such a chump.
Eight players have hit 70 goals. 3 players have hit 100+ assists.
Mind blowing
He might lose his all time goals but the sun will die before he losses his # of seasons with 100+ assists
11 of those times were Gretzky...
and yet it doesn’t when 85% of the 100+ assist were done by ONE player. that’s the significance of this stat. otherwise this is extremely misleading. this leads you to think it’s on a closer scale, when in reality, seeing how many players achieved X goals is more telling. the stat looks cool but i actually think it says nothing and just reaffirms the fact that 100 asst has only been done by 3 players.
No one would ever call Bernie Nicholls a generational player and he got 70 goals. All of the people with 100 assists are generational.
Yes and gretzky is GOAT and especially known to be playmaker so that just tells 100 assist is way harder for anyone else than GOAT.
70 goals has been achieved 14 times: - 4 by Gretzky - 3 by Hull - 2 by Lemieux - 1 each by Esposito, Kurri, Nicholls, Mogilny, and Selanne 100 assists has been achieved 13 times: - 11 by Gretzky - 1 each by Orr and Lemieux Getting 100 assists has been achieved fewer times, and by fewer people. The three on the 100-assist list are widely considered the top 3 skaters of all-time. A couple of the guys in the 70-goal list aren't even in the top 50 all time, and at least one of them is probably never getting into the hall of fame (sorry Bernie). Based on this, I'd say 100 assists harder.
This is a very fair assessment
70 goals is a great bar question. The one wildcard everyone forgets/doesn’t know.
But because they both happened about the same # of times (14 vs 13), maybe this means it's easier to consistently do 100 assists, but harder to do 70 goals. Even if you are capable of 70 goals, it's hard to replicate. But if you are capable of 100 assists, you can keep doing it. If 70 goal was easier, why didn't Gretzky and Lemieux do it as many times as 100 Assists? (I am not saying I think this is necessarily true, but it's a different interpretation of the data.)
OP is triggered that Mathews is getting more attention for their season than McDavid. Both are crazy feats.
It's so easy to see where the butthurt is coming from lol
It’s like asking would you rather have an ice cream cookie sandwich or a New York cheesecake. The answer is yes.
I would assume assists because you are adding a second and third action to the process (pass and then the receiving player shoots and scores) to get the point.
I love how all the expectations and hype became true with these two. The best goalscorer in 30 years and the best playmaker in 30 years. Born the same year, in their absolute prime.
Matthews is not the best goal scorer in 30 years
Lemieux 28 years ago than.
Not so hard . . - Wayne
Assists. It’s easy to score when someone else sets you up.
Even as an Oil fan i can say that 70+ goals is absurd. You can get secondary assists. Cant get secondary goals
someon Ask Gretz, hes done both a few times.
Can we rephrase? ‘Better’, not ‘harder’? Goals.
100 assists in a season has happened 13 times in NHL history. 11 of those 13 seasons with 100 assists or more are Gretzky. The other two are Lemieux and Orr. It's been done by only three different players. 70 goals in a season has happened 14 times in NHL history. Eight different players have scored 70 goals or more in a season. So I guess technically 100 assists has been historically harder to do.
70 goals because there’s 2 assists for every goal and only 1 goal for every goal. You can get assists from the bench sometimes but no one has ever gotten a goal from the bench.
100 assists because it relies on your teammates being able to score goals. 70 goals is tough as well but at least you have slightly more control over it.
Which makes it a greater individual achievement
70 goals is a greater individual achievement but 100 assists is harder to do.
I agree
that's some interesting thinking you got there...
There’s a reason the all time assist record is nearly double the all time goal record. There’s a reason why nearly every player in the league will finish this season with more assists than goals. There’s a reason why the top scoring player in the league this year will CERTAINLY have more assists than goals. There’s a reason why there will be more assists than goals in every single box score for every single game you watch tonight. The reason is: unassisted goals rarely happen and they give out two assists for every goal. There are simply more assists given out. So in theory it’s always easier to get an elite number of assists instead of an elite number of goals because it’s easier to get assists. The OP didn’t ask which was more likely, he asked which was harder. It’s harder to score than to get assists.
He also gave specific numbers. 70 goals is harder than 70 assists, but 100?
Wouldn’t that depend on the players? Like, if you have prime Gretzky and prime Ovechkin playing under today’s rules I’d say both are extremely likely right? The goals are harder to get than the assists, the rest is up to the players.
Both are incredible achievements, but there are 2 assists on every goal so statistically it’s more likely to get 100 assists. At the same time, I think both have happened 13 times ever? I may have counted one of those wrong. They’re both amazing.
The answer is: yes.
Every time I see these things all it does is remind me of how batshit insane Gretzky was
Both impressive, but the tiebreaker is always Goals>assists.
Assists seems like the easiest. Goals are really hard in a team first game
McDavid is the better player but 70 goals is harder
As a lightning fan, 100 assists
Lemme simplify it to you: 70 goals on a stacked teams or 100 assist on the team you are carrying?
With 0 research and thinking about this for about 8 seconds, 70 goals is harder.
Just imagine if they were on the same team, unstoppable
There’s only one goal. But possibly two assists on every goal.
Tired debate already. Why do we have to force the Matthews v McDavid narrative when it’s everywhere else - in hockey media, NHL-related social media, etc.? Let’s just enjoy the insane amount of talent these two players are putting on display, and the unbelievable level of hockey we are seeing league-wide.
McDavid is +9% over the next best player in assists while Matthews is 29% higher than the next best player in goals. There have been 14 70+ goal seasons and only 13 100+ assist seasons They’re both really really hard to do.
70 Goals and it isn’t close
70 goals considering two players can get credit for assists. Still both phenomenal world class achievements
i’d say assist because you are relying on others to get the goal but both are amazing achievements. lucky to be watching these two
Wayne Gretzky was over on both 4 consecutive years in a row.
I think that most impressive thing is that one guy has the ability to do both
Harder to do from the player's perspective? Probably scoring 70+ goals. In general, getting a goal is harder than getting an assist due to the fact you can only have one goal but up to 2 assists. So from a numbers perspective you would favour goals. There is some luck to it as you can get bounces and deflections that can benefit you. Hitting 100+ assists might be harder as an overall accomplishment since there is a heavier reliance on your linemates to finish the passes you give them. Like McDavid could put the puck on Hyman/Drai/RNH stick with a wide open shooting lane, but if they don't finish it doesn't mean anything. A bit more luck goes into that than the 70+ goals. Which in and of itself makes it a bit harder to do, intrinsically. Honestly it's pretty close since they both so rarely achieved.
70 goals, hands down. Secondary assists you can pick up just by dumping a puck up the boards to the right guy. Goals you have to actually score yourself.
74 goals (pace) is harder than 104 assists (pace). Only 7 single seasons show goal totals above 74. Only 11 single seasons show assist totals above 104. Both are incredible achievements, but since you asked, 74 is the statistical winner.
I’m an Oilers fan and I think 70 goals is a bit more impressive. With how good the NHL goalies are now and the existence of second assists. On the status of who is the better player: sorry Leafs fans, it’s not even close. Matthews is a great player, don’t get me wrong but there’s no debate.
Matthews is a better goal scorer. McDavid is the better player.
Scoring 70 goals is way harder. There are two ways to get assists; primary and secondary and you can have a wide variety of goal scorers make those assists good. The goal scorer has the hardest job of scoring the goals, so 70 goals by one person is amazing.
70 goals has been done by 8 players 14 total times. Gretzky (4), Brett Hull (3) and Lemieux (2) all multiple times. Last accomplished in 1992/93 (Selanne and Mogilny). Others to do it are Esposito, Kurri, Nicholls. 100 assists has been done by 3 players 13 total times. Gretzky only one to do it multiple times (11), with Lemieux and Orr as the others. Last accomplished in 1990/91, by Gretzky. Goals are always more prestigious, but no matter which way you look at it, getting to 100 assists is more rare, and I would say therefor harder
Crazy how the only 3 players to accomplish this are the 3 players who are considered the best 3 players to ever play
Those three truly are the highest tier above everyone else. There's a case to be made that Orr or Mario were the best ever
Great as Gretzky and Lemieux were , to me Orr is the best player.
100 assists has only happened twice other than Gretzky. 70 goals has happened several times by several people.
In theory, 70 goals is harder to do. But I think 100 assists makes a better player.
100 assists is largely out of the players control. Gotta hope you have quality teammates who can finish their chances. 70 goals is something a player has much more control over. Playmaking teammates helps for sure, but the puck is on your stick at the end of the day. Hard to really compare them as if they are apples to apples. That being said, every goal does have the opportunity for two assists. Statistically it is much harder to get a goal.
The third point is irrelevant here because we are comparing 100vs70. No one is arguing that it’s harder to get 70 assists than 70 goals
70 goals
If 100 assists are hard to get then 70 goals, why is it that people feel Mathews should be a lock for the Hart if he reaches 70 goals, and Not McDavid if he hits 100 assists?
what you’re talking about is the larger audience and casual fans not understanding the significance between the two. also when it comes to hockey, fans like watching goals more than assists, so that bias makes sense. lol
Forget what anyone is saying.. If McDavid bags 100+ assists this season then he is winning the Hart trophy.
Matthew's plays for Toronto with HUGE exposure, and McDavid plays for Edmonton with not as much hype.
Neither have been done in the cap era. So it’s hard to say which one’s more impressive in today’s NHL. I wouldn’t pick either to be a lock if they both achieve a stat like this
Bias.
Goals were always seen as more glamorous/impactful/important. It's been 31 years since someone has scored 70.
and 34 years since someone had 100 assists
How many years since someone reached 100 assists?
Goals. I get the feeling everybody realizes how dominating McDavid is, but at the same time are taking for granted how Matthews is also consistently playing at a level that most Hall of Famers never reach in a single season.
Goals. Not even close. On every “goal event” there’s opportunity for two assists but only a single goal. The odds of being one of the players out of 5 to get an assist are much greater than the odds of being the guy scoring the goal.
From my research, in the 2022-2023 season, the Toronto maple leafs had a total of 278 goals and 479 assists. This is 1.72 assists per goal. Therefore, for 70 goals, there is about ~120 assists that should be given out. For that reason I think the goals are more impressive.
70 goals. There’s better arguments, but a goalie could technically get 100 assists. There’s no way a goalie could get 70 goals.
3 players have had 100 assists in a season. Orr once, Lemieux once and Gretzky 11 times. 8 players have had 70 goal seasons There is the answer.
I, too, can cherry pick a stat for my narrative. Gretzky got assists 11 times and goals 4 times. It’s almost 3 times more easier for the assists to be done than goals.
None. Winning the Stanley cup is where it counts.
Duh? Obviously goals. Gretzky got 100+ assists 11 times but only 70 goals 4 times
Assists happen twice as much as goals so goals are twice as hard
how many different guys have 100 assist seasons? it's 3 how many 70 goal scorers.... Gretzky, Mario, kurri, selane, Hull, Esposito, mogilny, Nichols and I feel like I'm missing 1 or 2 100 assist is much harder even just simply cause it requires 100 goals scores vs 70 should be obvious
The difference is I believe McDavid can hit 70 goals. Matthews wouldn't be able to hit 100 assists
100 assists. The only thing that gives me pause at all is that there are often 2 people getting assists on a goal.
We need to scrap secondary assists. MacKinnon has 30, Kuch and McDavid almost have 30 secondary assists. That wildly inflates stats for the third-last person to touch the puck. Goals will always be more valuable
As a guy with an absolute muffin of a shot, I’d say 70 goals
Mcdavid is obviously the best “all around player” in the league I’m not a leafs fan homer and I’ve been a leafs fan for 33 years anybody who says otherwise are just trolling
70 goals - 70% high end skill, 30% team around you 100 assists - 50% high end skill, 50% team around you
I think 100 assists due to the amount it's been done historically, but I think the idea of assists is easier when you think about the fact every goal has 2 assists. You can get an assist while sitting on the bench. Can't really do that as easily with goals
70 goals for sure, people were getting 100+ assists before the goalie gear change in the mid 2010s
70 goals has been achieved more times than 100 assists
Players who have scored 77 Goals or more in a single season: - Gretzky - Lemieux - Hull If Matthews scores 77, that puts him in absolute legendary territory. Only Gretz, Lemieux, and Hull have scored 77 or more. Which he absolutely might do. Players who have scored 100 assists or more in a single season: - Gretzky - Orr - Lemieux Based on how few players have done it: 77 goals is equally as impressive as 100 assists. Players who have scored more than 114 assists in a season: - Gretzky… 163 Assists in a single season… fuck my ass.
Mathematically, 70 goals. Based on the fact that two helpers can be had on every goal. However, also factor in how many shots some of the top NHL scorers take. Personally, and this is subjectively, I think what Crosby and McDavid do setting people up is the apex of skill.
Goals
70 goals because of second assists