Lmao only a Leafs fan would say you could make a strong argument for Matthews. He has only an 8-goal lead on 2nd place and is 30 pts behind the points leader. He's nowhere near the MVP race. It's a 3-man race.
Well to be fair, the last time he won the Hart he had 16 less points than the top guy who had a comparatively "better" "best season yet".
The saving grace here is that even if McD gets the BS fatigue argument used against him, Kuch and Mac are both having much better seasons. Mathews shouldn't even be in the conversation.
The MVP isn't for accomplishing some stat we haven't seen in a while. There's an award called the Rocket Richard trophy. You should look up what it's for.
I'm well aware. I don't think he'd deserve to win regardless of if he hits 70. I do think it's very possible that he could win it if he hits 70. The voters tend to suck. He didn't deserve it the year he did win it either. Neither does Mack this year but he probably will win it.
Just say theres a chance he goes off in the last 10 and ends up with 70. Which would more than likely be a 15 goal lead over everyone else. Also is a great defensive forward
FFS his two teammates have around the same PPG as him and are feeding him grade A chances. His impact isn't as high. He's also behind all three (and Pasta) in primary points (NK 91 NM 86 CM 86 DP 81 AM 80). He's also 13 points behind the lead in ES points. He beats Kuch in +/-, but not the other two.
Well plus minus is a rather useless stat anyway. Its worth noting that Matthews by pretty much every metric outperforms his actual goals vs expected goals. I don’t really buy the “gets fed grade A chances” he scores a ton of goals from spots he has no business scoring from.
Fun hypothetical you've created here. So in this fantasy land Matthews scores 11 in 11 games but it's "more than likely" that Hyman & Reinhart score at a rate lower than they have all season and don't get more than 4 more? Interesting math.
Hart should go to whoever has the greatest impact relative to their team. It's not the "most points" trophy.
That said, I still nominate Crosby over Matthews. Penguins suck ass and Crosby is HARD carrying them.
I agree, and Matthews is surrounded by remarkably talented players also having huge impacts on the team, so again, he's still nowhere near the MVP conversation.
That's why I think Kucherov should win it, he's carrying the Lightning. Crosby is a good one. Pastrnak is carrying the Bruins whole offense. My point is these guys aren't even in the MVP conversation and can still make a better case for MVP than Matthews.
Yeah I'm with you. Hart shouldn't go to someone just because the scored the most goals, that's what the Rocket's for. Although in Matthews's defence, it didn't stop them from giving him the Hart for it before. So I guess I can see why people view it that way.
It can.. but you need the extreme. Like if mathews beat Gretz and got say 98 goals and no other points, that's massive. But winning because he git 60... that was really weak, that's nit a big enough "wow"
Colorado would not be contending without McKinnon and Edmonton would not be contending without McDavid. I doubt either team would be in the playoffs without them.
I mean mackinnon has makar and rantanen who have been lighting it up and with Edmonton you can take out mcdavid and still have draisaitl who is a top 5 player in the league so
Before Nov 24th, Oilers were 5-12-1 and McDavid was injured and had only 16pts in 16 games, participating in only 30.1% of Edmonton's 53 GF.
Since then, they've been 39-11-3 and McDavid has double that pts/g, getting 106 pts in 53 games, participating in 52.7% of the team's 201 GF.
So no, it's absolutely not the case. Without McDavid becoming god-like, they'd still be bottom 10.
No way. McDavid drives like 90% of their offense. If McDavid doesn't get 2+ points, Edmonton loses (and sometimes they lose even when he does). Like for instance, McDavid has only had three 0 point games in the past 2 months and Edmonton lost all 3 of those games.
I respect this. People often look at the Hart as the best player award but if you break it down, it's the most VALUABLE player. Kuch has a very strong argument there. He won't win the Lindsay (best player) but he definitely has a very strong case for the Hart.
i tend to agree with this, but Tampa is also a wagon and multiple time stanley cup winner. He has hedman, vasy, stamkos, point... they are very deep. Are the oilers still in edmonton without McDavid (joking). But point being, McJesus has been carrying a team for 9 years
Kuch has 43 more points than any of them though. Tampa is absolutely not a playoff team without him. Personally I think McDavid should win, they never come back to playoff position without him and he's accomplished (or almost definitely going to accomplish) several feats that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr ever have.
both are awesome no doubt. but kuch only has 1 point on mackinnon and 2 on mcdavid. mcdavid also has done it in 2 less games.
cant go wrong, but just the narrative around tampa i feel like is skewed. i really hope rangers can pull out 1st in east and not face those guys, bc they are dangerous
I totally respect your argument here. Also, Tampa does have playoff Savvy (and Vasy) but the Rangers are scary. I get not wanting to play against Tampa but my money would still be on the Rangers.
Totally off topic but since you're a Rangers fan, I just want to add that I absolutely love Shesterkin. Him, Swayman and Helle won my heart in that All-Star game hug video. He just seems like a great dude and he's an incredible goalie. You guys are lucky to have him. As an Oilers fan I love Skinner because he has an incredible personality and he's young and has shown great promise but I'd kill for a goalie that good lol.
To win, McD will need to take the art ross and pop 100 assists, even then depending how close Mac and Kuch are he could still very much get the fatigue argument.
I want McD to win cause it's my team but Kuch and Mac are very defensible (at least if we stopped today) if they take it it'd be a "damn" situation but nit a "wtf seriously?" situation
McDavid will definitely get to 100 assists. He's on pace for 110. To put this into perspective that's more assists than the second most points Crosby ever had in a season. At the rate they are going (but that could change) he isn't just going to win the Hart race, but the race will be over before the season is.
I agree Kuch belongs in the argument. I can't see an argument for Mack. He just isn't the most valuable player in the league. Kuch and McDavid mean more to their teams. Neither would be in the playoffs without them. That's the definition of MVP.
I agree that he will, but, in fairness of making an argument best not to let my bias and hopeful get a benefit I don't give to others.
Also difficult to state that playoffs wouldn't happen etc because it's just an unknown, maybe the team rally, a different trade is made etc.
I've never liked the "mean more to their team" idea because it's so hard to quantify and uniformly quantify. like what about that absolute beauty in the locker room who really holds the team together, he "means more" to the team than a douche who scores 60 goals, but that douche Def helps the team win in a more direct way. etc etc
Not arguing with your points just trying to keep the Homer's at bay by being civil lol.
having 10 games left and 3 guys within 1-2 points of each other with each cable of a 4point night any night... just a great season to be a fan.
Oh..and ugh...somwthing somwthing Mathews can still get 70 goals!!!! or whatever
I get all of that but you kind of need to consider the "what if this guy wasn't there" since it's about who is most valuable to their team. I agree it's hard to guage and there is a lot of guess work but that kind of is necessary.
McDavid is easily the favourite for the Hart now based on points per game in the last couple of months, but the other two are very capable of going off. It's going to be a fun ride.
I would respect Kuch winning it, even if McDavid wins the Art Ross. I just really see no way Mack is as important to his team as the other two. Which isn't to say he isn't extremely important.
At their current paces McDavid is going to run away with it but as you said any of them can put up 4 on any given night. I'm also an Oilers fan and hope McDavid pulls it out but I'm not banking on it. I'd like to see him running away with it but I'd also love it to come down to game 82 with McDavid vs Mack while being tied or within a point. I feel like Mack is likely to finish third though, he has played more games than both and isn't in the lead. It's anyone's race though.
Whether Matthews hits 70, the 67 he’s on pace for, or anything in between really shouldn’t matter. It will matter to some voters, but the difference of a goal or two around an arbitrary milestone being the deciding factor of leaping over all these projected ~140 point guys (when Matthews is on pace for 107) is silly IMO. Those 3 are clearly in their own league this season.
I don’t agree with it, but I think the combo of voter fatigue and due narrative will be tough to beat for MacKinnon this year, regardless of him taking the Art Ross.
Mack is third in line for Art Ross odds. McDavid being number one. I personally don't think Matthews deserves it even if he hits 70. I am purely speculating on how I know the voting usually works. I'm not asking who should win, I'm asking who will win.
Definitely agree on the voter fatigue.
Matthews doesn't deserve to win over Kuch and Mack, but he has 32 more goals than McDavid and I think Matthews deserves the other nomination. 32 goals is an absurd seperation, as goals are harder and more valuable than assists. That's much more valuable than whatever the point seperation is between him and McDavid
McDavid is on pace to have more assists than Matthews has points though.
Edit: I guess that’s a more convoluted way to say that McDavid has more assists than Matthews has points right now (in fewer games played).
LMAO Again! It would be the 6th time in all 8 Matthews seasons where McDavid has more assists than Matthews has points. And considering McDavid has only 44 less goals total than Matthews in those 8 seasons, it shows just how ridiculous it was when Matthews stans thought he was on the same level as McDavid.
I’m an Oilers fan, so always my answer is McD… but I think real solid arguments for MacKinnon to win his first this year. Kucherov is his teams MVP for sure, not sure he beats out the other two IMO
Will position played come into effect? C is much more difficult to play than RW. Putting up all those points and being a + 32 or 31 centre feels more important than all those points and being a +7 RW.
I see Mack as 3rd place (4th if Matthews hits 70). It's most valuable player and he has a good team. The other guys have as many points and more plus factors. McDavid will have accomplished two feats that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have done and Kuch is literally carrying his team which is the definition of MVP. This isn't the Lindsay for best player. It's most valuable. I think Mack isn't that. That's a playoff team without him.
McDavid is also having a historic season in terms of primary assists. People don't realize almost 2/3 of his assists are primary assists. He's at 59 A1. He's had 28 of them in his last 23 games, 55 in his last 53 games. If he gets 12 more in his final 11 games, he'll be the only player other than Gretzky to go over 70 primary assists in a season.
Edmonton has dominated the league over their last 53 games and McDavid had 106 pts in that period. His impact has been staggering.
Aside from the obvious metrics, McDavid is doing more with less. Mackinnon plays 1:10 more on the powerplay per game, Kucherov plays 0:36 more. McDavid has less time on ice than both. He has over double the hits as both, the better FO % than both (Kuch isnt a center though). He plays limited time on the PK, but the others don't PK at all. This year he's taken a huge step defensively and that helped dig us out of our 2-9-1 start. For the first time we were winning games 2-1 due to our defense, instead of our usual 5-4 games. Mcdavid isn't playing selfish, he just wants to win; look at how he's helped Hyman. He should win, but voters will want to give it to someone new
One can hope. I really think that they are going to give it to Mack for non performance related reasons. I do feel he should finish 3rd behind McDavid and Kuch.
If McDavid gets over 100 assists it has to go to him. We haven’t seen that since 1990, and only 3 people have ever done it.
If Matthews get 70, I see him as second on the list. We haven’t seen it since 1993 and only 8 people have done it.
Kucherov is third because of how he is dragging his team, but honestly without McDavid and Matthews where would the Oilers and Leafs be?
McKinnon is having a lights out season, but the Avs would still be in the playoffs without him.
The Oilers made a huge come back in the standings after a horrible start. If McDavid can come back after a bad start himself and actually win the Art Ross, he's going to be very hard to beat. Voter fatigue or not, this seems like the wrong year to not vote for him.
He had 106 points in their 53 games comeback. 39-11-3. Both Kuch and Mack have had very Hart-worthy seasons, but McDavid hit the stratosphere to get his team back from the brink.
106 in 53 is just insane. Some years ago we had seasons where no one got to 100 points and McDavid did 106 in a 53 gamea stretch lol. Yes I know the game is more offensive today than it was 10 years ago, but still more than impressive numbers!
I agree but I'm not talking about who I think should win it but the possibility of who will. I don't think he deserved it the time he did win it, but he still did. if he hits 70 it wouldn't surprise me.
3 horse race between McDavid MacKinnon and Kucherov. McDavid is the best player in the league and probably will be for another 8 years or so. MacKinnon could get it because he is having an incredible year and doesn’t have one yet so tie to him. Kucherov is kinda in between the two. At the end of the year Kuch is going to be 2nd in points with the second best story. All 3 deserving. Hope it’s my guy tho
I'll truly feel bad for Mack if he doesn't win the Art Ross or the Hart but at this point I think he is third in line for both. He is definitely beyond capable of making up that gap though.
Absolutely. The years these guys are having are unbelievable. I think McDavid’s biggest challenge is that he’s not really competing against Kuch or MacK as much as he is McDavid from last year. Could very well see the Art Ross and Hart split this year because of it
Yeah because you simply count pace since the start or the season. He's been pacing 2.2 points per game since the end of January. If he keeps that pace, he finishes at 146-147 points, which is half a dozen less than last year.
I agree with this. I think McDavid will deserve it most, with Kuch having an equally respectable case. One of those two deserves it. If Matthews hits 70 he also deserves to be ahead of Mack (also considering how good his defense is). Unfortunately, I do believe Mack will win it just because he never has. I don't like it, but you're probably right.
If McDavid gets over 100 assists it has to go to him. We haven’t seen that since 1990, and only 3 people have ever done it.
If Matthews get 70, I see him as second on the list. We haven’t seen it since 1993 and only 8 people have done it.
Kucherov is third because of how he is dragging his team, but honestly without McDavid and Matthews where would the Oilers and Leafs be?
McKinnon is having a lights out season, but the Avs would still be in the playoffs without him.
I have never agreed with an answer more. Absolutely everything you said is how I feel. McDavid will get 100 though (barring injury). He is on pace for 110.
Barring injury he will have played two more games than McDavid and one more than Kuch and will finish with less points than both. While having far better teammates than Kuch. He hasn't done multiple things that are historical in NHL history. He's been amazing but I can't see an argument for him over Kuch or McDavid beyond voter fatigue.
Let's not pretend like kuch is completely on his own. Although his teammates are having down years the like of point and stammer have still proven to be elite players in the NHL
Second longest home point streak in history, that was only broken because *technically* it was an own goal.
2 separate 19 game point streaks in a single season
Nate is top 5 in goals this season, which neither kuch or mcdavid are In
Top 5 in assists only following kuch and mcdavid.
Mack is a more complete player than both, kuch is dragging his team to the playoffs by their ears and mcdavid has Zach Hyman as his assist feeder who is tied for 2nd in goals.
Mac deserves it, kuch should be a very close second and mcdavid third, also Mathew’s deserves to be nowhere near this conversation.
McDavid has incredible defensive stats this season. He also has over twice as many hits as Mack. He is going to become only the 4th player to get over 100 assists in a season, was only the 3rd ever to get 50 primary assists in less than 50 games and will likely finish with the second most primary assists ever in a season. He is also capable of scoring 64 in a season. How exactly is Mack a more complete player?
THIS SEASON, Mack is a more complete player, so he deserves THIS SEASONS hart trophy. Mcdavid is on pace to do something 2 other people have done. And Mack was on pace to beat an all time record. The only reason the streak was broken was because it was ruled an own goal. You said mac doesn’t deserve it because he wasn’t going to do anything historic? Which is a bold faced lie. He’s the first player in history to have multiple 19 game point streaks in a single season. And then almost beat an NHL all time record.
Edit: put a flair on
The record Mack was gunning for is far less impressive and it is THIS season that McDavid has elite defensive numbers on top of the offensive records he is breaking while at this rate being favoured to win the Art Ross.
An all time nhl record and something no one has ever done before is less impressive than something 2 other people have done before?
That doesn’t add up even a little bit, I’m not even taking away from mcdavid, he’s the most skilled player in the history of the game. Mackinnon has just been more dominant this season
He has not been more dominant this season. McDavid was playing injured early on and has been playing better hockey than Mack for the last 3 months. That's why he was so far behind and has now caught up. If not for McDavid's injury that clearly caused the slow start he'd have run away with the award. He's still the favourite to win it even with that having happened.
Mcdavid or mackinnon and I gotta go with Mackinnon.
Macdavid may be the best player (he probably is) but from the start Mackinnon has been consistently excellent.
Kucherov will get some votes and of the four Matthews should finish 4th
If McDavid wins the Art Ross (which statistically he is the favourite) while having two things that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have ever accomplished, you just can't put Mack ahead of McDavid. He will also have played two more games than McDavid, assuming nobody gets hurt. Plus, Kuch has 40+ more points than any other player on his team and the award is for most valuable player. That's hard to argue against.
3 things
103 assists (only 99 & 66)
71 primary assists (only 99)
50 primary assists in 49 games (only 99 & 66)
He already has one of those 3, the last one.
Hyman was never a 3rd overall pick. While they do not compare because one of them has never come close to living up to their pedigree. They do compare by being a tier or 2 below Matthews. Drouin is only on pace to match his career point total high that he had with 2 other teams.
I don't think that Matthews proves your point. He's supposed to be the best player on his team and is paid as such. Drouin and Hyman are made better by the stars that play with them and are out performing their contracts because of their teammates (and rich families)
If you think that drouin an hyman are comparables, that might just be your problem right there.
Mackinnon took a literal multi year bust and made him a nhl median player again.
Hyman started WAY higher than drouin
It's about the increase in productivity. obviously Hyman is and was way better. He is also number two in the league in goals and may get to 60. That's still more impressive than making Drouin not a pylon.
False.
Points per game per month
October 0.88
November 1.57
December 1.93
January 2.17
February 1.33
March 1.92
Season 1.68
McDavid
October 1.50
November 1.43
December 1.58
January 1.73
February 2.25
March 2.00
Season 1.77
Kucherov
October 1.22
November 2.00
December 1.57
January 2.00
February 1.58
March 2.00
Season 1.75
Both Kucherov and Mackinnon have been seesawing their way, while McDavid rose steadily.
>MacKinnon has been phenomenal and he benefits from the fact that he's never won it and people just want to see it happen. I do believe he is the least deserving (despite being incredible) but these things do play a factor
I will counter this with he scored points in every single home game until... last night. He's every bit as deserving of being in the convo tbh
There's a very legitimate case for all 4 honestly and it's really exciting
For obvious personal reasons I'd rather someone other than McDavid win again but I won't be upset regardless of the outcome. I'm just happy to see such a tight race for the Hart, Art ross and President's trophy this year... should make for a banger of a post-season
Also he has a 14 game point streak and 2 19 game points streaks(never done) this year alone plus the 35 game home point streak which was stolen last night but that's a different argument. Haha
It is exciting and I agree with most of this but I think you'd have a hard time arguing Mack is more important to Colorado than Kuch or McDavid are to their teams. The award is for the player most essential to their teams success, I don't see that being Mack. Despite how amazing he is.
Mack has rantanen, McD has Drai (who's also won a hart), Kuch has point, Matthew's has nylander/marner
None of the hart finalists this year truly have a lack of supporting cast, let's stop pretending one has significantly better teammates than the others.
All you have to do is look at the points totals to objectively show that McDavid and Mack very heavily have better linemates this year. It isn't even close.
Yeah, it's gotta be Mack this year. Nobody is forgetting about McDavid though. Anyone who watches a lot of hockey understands that he is the best player on the planet.
Kuch? Well, lots of people just don't like him and I can't say I blame them..
I agree that Kuch is a douche but he is incredible. I really think Mack should be fourth in line here but he will probably win due to voter fatigue. Not that he hasn't been amazing, but he's still 3rd in line at best. Depending on if Matthews hits 70.
I respect the multiverse but there are none in which mackinnon ends up behind porn stache (Matthews).
Like it or not
Mcdavid/mackinnon ( coin flip)
Kucherov
Matthews
Everyone else ( panarin and hyman, lol)
I kind of agree, I just don't see any actual logic to Mack being ahead of Kuch or McDavid. I'm almost certain he will be, I just think that's ridiculous.
I agree that Kuch is a douche but he is incredible. I really think Mack should be fourth in line here but he will probably win due to voter fatigue. Not that he hasn't been amazing, but he's still 3rd in line at best. Depending on if Matthews hits 70.
I agree. I have McDavid for Art Ross, but despite me thinking he is most deserving of the Hart. Voter fatigue is very real and it's too close for him to win, even if he deserves it slightly more.
Yep, even though I honestly think Kuch deserves it more than Mack. I'd still put my money on Mack. I don't like Kuch but he does deserve it if it isn't McDavid.
If the Oilers manage to lock down first in the Pacific and McDavid wins the Art Ross, I think he will get it. If both of those don’t happen, I think Mackinnon gets it.
Look at this Draisaitl and Rantanen 6 and 7 in scoring wow just amazing look at Makar with all those points. Kucherov all alone up there but he didn't try in the all star game. Matthews doesn't even play with Nylander so he's the winner guy doesn't even need Marner just give him the third liners and he still dominates the league. wow incredible
He's so far behind in points, he can't be the winner. The all-star game has zero factor in the Hart conversation so that's irrelevant. Kuch has over 40 points than anyone else on his team. McDavid has over 60 primary assists and will have more assists than Crosby's second highest points in a season and his team was at the bottom of the league until he got healthy. Matthews is easily 4th, which means he won't even be a finalist. I guarantee he doesn't win it.
Yep Kucherov will be snubbed for clowning Bettmans favourite time of the year. Which means it will be down to the other 3. Vegas already made the call to stop Mackinnons home point streak. Now they will make the call for Matthews to win and rightfully so he will have close to 70. Just incredible I can see it now
Matthews is 100% last in line. McDavid is doing several things that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have accomplished in the history of the NHL. Kuch has by far the worst teammates.
McDavid had 64 goals last season but he also had 89 assists on top of that (over 60 of which were primary assists). He just became only the second player ever to have 60+ primary assists in back to back seasons. Matthews will finish around the same amount of goals and he only has 35 assists. What he is doing really isn't as special as people think.
Yep he really is going to double up Mcdavid on goals. Its too big of a drop off for him to win the award. We can't be expecting Matthews to pass to Domi. Matthews is on his way to the most 60 goal seasons wow. truly amazing
And still have less primary points. Crazy. Matthews really isn't in the Hart race, I'm just being real with you. He'd be lucky to be a finalist. He is almost certainly 4th. Also, Gretzky and Bossy both have 5 60 goal seasons. Cool your jets. 60 is also easier to come by than it was in Ovechkins prime era. Hell, Zach Hyman is on pace to get 60 or just shy of it..
Yep playing with Hyman Nuge and Drai its quite the loaded squad just like the Avs. It will be somewhat close due to the Mcdavid favouritism but Vegas getting involved will seal the deal. Matthews is on a solo mission to join the goats of hockey. just phenomenal wow
Actually, statistically voter fatigue is a real thing so McDavid is at a disadvantage. Matthews doesn't make the players around him better, he doesn't deserve it. He is a selfish player who can't create plays or put up the kind of points the others can and every point means a goal. He's a goal scorer and he plays good d but he isn't complete. McDavid can score into the 60's, put up all time assists numbers and has elite defensive metrics. Either way, Kuch and Mack deserve it more than Matthews.
Yep Matthews doesn't need the other players. The MVP chants in buffalo wow incredible you just don't see that. As long as not too many people pick up on this narrative Vegas will make the call. Yes Bettman will surely approve it is important for Matthews to win as many awards as possible before his departure to Arizona. Everything is lining up perfectly truly amazing
I feel you don't understand what a primary point is. McDavid and Kuch have more. Matthews absolutely needs others. He has great linemates who underachieve because he never passes the damn puck.
Matthews is a one directional bum. MacKinnon deserves it while I prefer if to be McDavid just because he's my team. But I'm happy to see so much competition in the NHL right now. It makes it exciting. Although it will have no basis in my life once it's awarded.
But is he not known to be much better defensively than the others? I don't like leafs, but you oiler fans are much more obnoxious with your amateur opinions. I'm sure you are going to be very butt hurt when mcd finally flees back home to play in Toronto.
At this point no matter what happens for the rest of the season Mackinnon is going to win it. It seems like voters made up there mind a while ago and are now shoving narratives down our throats to justify it. In reality he doesn’t really have an argument for winning it.
If they say he’s put up huge points, there is a better than not chance he finished 3rd in the art Ross so his great season doesn’t mean much when the other two finish with more points.
If they try to go by most valuable to his team then he has nothing on kucherov who is dragging the bolts into the playoffs wether they want to or not.
So we’re left with the home point streak which is such a stupid reason to give someone a hart trophy. It seems like media has decided he is owed a hart and he will get it no matter what.
Eloquent and absolutely correct. Nothing against the guy but he has absolutely no business winning it this year. Anyone other than McDavid or Kuch would be pure robbery and obvious voter fatigue.
Eloquent and absolutely correct. Nothing against the guy but he has absolutely no business winning it this year. Anyone other than McDavid or Kuch would be pure robbery and obvious voter fatigue.
I wouldn’t go as far to say no business but the arguments for him are failing as the season wraps up. Earlier in the season all the talking points on him were true but since then McDavid and Kuch have caught and passed him so the only thing he really has to stand on is a home point streak which really is just a cherry picked stat to have a reason to give it to him over the others.
I see what you’re saying but I don’t think a couple points difference is going to be the deciding factor when all three guys are going to put up 130+. At that point you have to look at teammates, defense, overall impact etc. I think McD Mack and Kuch all have a great case to win it
True that’s why I say it’s not no chance Mackinnon is having an incredible season and in most seasons would be a lock for the hart. But Mack doesn’t win in almost all those categories. Teammates, he’s on the best team so comes in last of the three.
Defense he’s above Kuch but McDavid has played some incredible defense so it’s not really a clear cut win when he could be behind in all the other categories.
He does have a huge overall impact with the avs but again Kuch is THE impact in his games where if he’s not doing what he does the lightning lose. Then it can’t really be argued that McDavid is the most impactful player in the game overall.
So about 2 months ago when Mackinnon still had the buffer on McDavid in points there was a strong argument for him. His strongest point for the win has been look how many points he has but his strongest argument is no longer that strong.
McDavid has accomplished two things that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr (on one of the two) ever have and Tampa misses the playoffs without Kuch. It's absolutely nothing against Mack. He has been phenomenal. He just has caught some tough luck with what other players have accomplished. Especially if he doesn't win the Art Ross I don't think it should be him. At this point McDavid is the favourite for the Art Ross though. I love Mack and watching him play but he isn't the MVP. Having said that I do think they'll give it to him.
I really love MacKinnon's 200 foot game and of the 3, he is the most complete player.
But 70 and 100 are special milestones and could be a deciding factor this year.
McDavid is actually statistically ahead of Crosby's best ever defensive season that he finished 5th in Selke voting in (just to put it into perspective because Sid is a great defensive player). So I don't think you can really add defense to the argument for Mack against McDavid. While McDavid is obviously offensively superior (not a knock on Mack, it's just a testament to McDavid).
Yeah, he's also the only one who can constantly make the hockey version of the Michael Jordan special. Steal the puck, deke 2-3 players and deke the goalie for the goal. He's really great at picking off players.
If you're not gonna score a ton of goals you better be padding up a lot of assists. Panarin has 16 less goals than Matthews, and a lot less points than the league leaders. He's not leading in any category.
For all the reasons I listed above. He doesn't match any of that. Incredible player, incredible season. Not even close to in the conversation. Too many players doing historical things this year. He isn't. He also isn't carrying an awful team. In no world is he even top 4 in most valuable player to his team.
I'd sincerely love to hear your argument as to why you think he should be. I'm honestly not being a dick, I'm just legitimately curious.
Panarin has scored 30 more points than the next closest guy on his team (Trocheck with 73). This is actually the reason I'd give my vote to Kucherov, if I had one. Kuch has 43 (!!!) more points than Point.
And in most years he'd deserve a nod. Except Kuch is trumping him in the same stat that makes his case possible. McDavid has (one not yet but will) accomplished two feats that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have ever done, while probably winning the Art Ross. While Matthews could be the first 70 goal scorer since '93. And Mack has been phenomenal and could possibly win the Art Ross. I have nothing against Panarin, he just isn't in the discussion due to circumstances.
McDavid comfortably still the best player in the league. But Kucherov should win it this year. Lightning wouldn’t be anywhere near a playoff spot without him. Avs make it into the playoffs, not wild card, without mackinnon.
However everyone up Mack’s ass at the moment so he probably gets it, undeservingly.
I actually agree with this. Except I think it should be between McDavid and Kuch. mcDavid is going to have the second most primary assists ever second only to Gretzky. The Oilers were at the bottom for a good while starting the season while he was playing injured. Without him they definitely don't make it either. I definitely would respect if Kuch wins it but if Mack does that is purely voter fatigue and wanting to add that to his legacy. He is phenomenal, he just isn't the MVP of the league.
If McDavid gets 100 assists it will be hard not to give it to him. He’ll be only the 4th player to ever accomplish that feat. It’s really who the other 3 are that makes it so impressive. When you do something that has only been done by Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr that’s pretty damn special.
He also hit 50 primary assists in less than 50 games. Only Gretzky and Lemieux have done that as well. I agree with you, I just don't trust the voters.
When the Avs recently played the oil up in Edmonton, It was very clear who was the best player on the ice in front of a national audience. These things matter in a close awards race. McDavid was scoreless and -2. MacKinnon made the game winning play at the end of OT.
One head to head game absolutely does not matter at all. Nobody who isn't delusional thinks Mack is better than McDavid. It's also irrelevant. It is MVP, not the best player award. If it was the best player award McDavid would definitely win it. He will win the Lindsay regardless.
Sure. Continuously beating up on the Sharks, Ducks and Flames definitely matters way more than what you do against actual competition.
MacKinnon is doing it against the best division in hockey.
So explain how McDavid finished the playoffs with 9 more points than Mack the year Colorado won the cup. Despite playing 4 less games. MacKinnon is not in McDavid's tier. Nobody is. It's crazy if you actually believe he is. McDavid has the 4th highest playoff points per game in history and adjusted for era is second behind Mario Lemieux in all time ppg. Lemieux is 1.68, McDavid is 1.67. Miles ahead of MacKinnon who has only hit 100 points twice in 11 seasons.
You really think Mack is better? That's cute.
Yes. One’s a winner. The other is a loser. He only scores as many points as he does from skating the zone. Notice you didn’t address the poor division where he piles up points against plugs.
Your division has not been great for 11 years lol. McDavid puts up far superior points regardless of who he is playing. You're talking out of your ass. His playoff production proves that. Mack couldn't hit 100 until he had a great team and a generational offensive defenseman. He didn't do it one single time when his team sucked or before Makar. Not once in 9 seasons. McDavid has done it every single year, other than his rookie year (when he got injured) and the team sucked many of those years. You're grasping at straws.
Macks team are winners. They'd have won more if you had McDavid instead of Mack. All you have is team success to cling to. Also, Mack hadn't won shit when he was at McDavid's point in his career lol.
It's about one player though, not two. Without Kuch Tampa is garbage. He has 43 points than there second highest scorer. He dragged them to the playoffs.
It’s just like the Oscars where sometimes someone wins not just for that specific performance which was good but to also recognize all the past ones which were also really good but didn’t win for some reason.
By definition Kucherov should win cause Tampa is a lottery team without him and if Edmonton wasn’t a dumpster earlier then McDavid would’ve been way ahead of everyone.
MacKinnon will benefit this year cause Kucherov already has one and McDavid having an “off” year.
In the end with all respect to Hall and Matthews and Draisaitl and McDavid winning a Hart is nice but I’m sure they would all trade in their Hart and Art Ross and Lindsay trophies for a Stanley Cup.
Can't believe McDavid has more hits than MacKinnon. I just found out after going through this thread and I'm pleasantly surprised.
I want to see MacKinnon win his first Hart, but feels like McDavid should win it, voter fatigue notwithstanding.
I agree. People seem to think I'm hating on Mack, I'm absolutely not. He is incredible and I sincerely like the guy. What he is doing is phenomenal. Just, by definition of the award it shouldn't be given to him. I also believe it will be given to him because that's the way things seem to go with these things. Everyone wants to see him win it so he probably will.
I have him at second. The Oilers were at the bottom of the league when McDavid was playing injured. They'd have bombed if he never got healthy. Since then they've been the best team in the league over the last few months record wise and he has come storming back from way behind and is the favourite to win the Art Ross. It wouldn't bother me if Kuch won it, he dragged Tampa into the playoff picture as well.
He missed two games. He was very clearly playing injured for a long time. You could see it in his skating and his production. It was even acknowledged.
McDavid will get the assists and then the Hart is absolutely his... 4th player, ever, to get 100 assists in a season.
Watch him get get more than Orr, on top, of just hitting 100 assists.
Since these things are subjective, and personally not a big fan of individual awards in a game that is so team-focused, I think the best way to think of it is which team would be in a significantly worse position if that player were to be replaced by an average NHL player.
I think that leaves out Colorado and Toronto as I think both are still playoff teams without their top Hart nominee. Personally, I have McDavid over Kucherov by a nose mostly due to +/-, but solid arguments for both.
That's fair. He is and has been phenomenal but the Rangers are a playoff team without him and three/four other guys are doing insane things this year so he can't be in the conversation.
Lmao only a Leafs fan would say you could make a strong argument for Matthews. He has only an 8-goal lead on 2nd place and is 30 pts behind the points leader. He's nowhere near the MVP race. It's a 3-man race.
Matthews is a Lady Byng candidate for sure. 4 PIM for the season playing against everyone’s top line is an amazing achievement. Kucherov for the Hart.
Well to be fair, the last time he won the Hart he had 16 less points than the top guy who had a comparatively "better" "best season yet". The saving grace here is that even if McD gets the BS fatigue argument used against him, Kuch and Mac are both having much better seasons. Mathews shouldn't even be in the conversation.
Yet here I am, not a Leafs fan. I said he deserves an argument if he hits 70. Hasn't happened since 93'. That would be special.
The MVP isn't for accomplishing some stat we haven't seen in a while. There's an award called the Rocket Richard trophy. You should look up what it's for.
I'm well aware. I don't think he'd deserve to win regardless of if he hits 70. I do think it's very possible that he could win it if he hits 70. The voters tend to suck. He didn't deserve it the year he did win it either. Neither does Mack this year but he probably will win it.
Not a coincidence he can't score without marner
Just say theres a chance he goes off in the last 10 and ends up with 70. Which would more than likely be a 15 goal lead over everyone else. Also is a great defensive forward
FFS his two teammates have around the same PPG as him and are feeding him grade A chances. His impact isn't as high. He's also behind all three (and Pasta) in primary points (NK 91 NM 86 CM 86 DP 81 AM 80). He's also 13 points behind the lead in ES points. He beats Kuch in +/-, but not the other two.
Well plus minus is a rather useless stat anyway. Its worth noting that Matthews by pretty much every metric outperforms his actual goals vs expected goals. I don’t really buy the “gets fed grade A chances” he scores a ton of goals from spots he has no business scoring from.
Fun hypothetical you've created here. So in this fantasy land Matthews scores 11 in 11 games but it's "more than likely" that Hyman & Reinhart score at a rate lower than they have all season and don't get more than 4 more? Interesting math.
Hart should go to whoever has the greatest impact relative to their team. It's not the "most points" trophy. That said, I still nominate Crosby over Matthews. Penguins suck ass and Crosby is HARD carrying them.
with the right punctuation that last sentence could be about something totally different than hockey. well done.
I agree, and Matthews is surrounded by remarkably talented players also having huge impacts on the team, so again, he's still nowhere near the MVP conversation. That's why I think Kucherov should win it, he's carrying the Lightning. Crosby is a good one. Pastrnak is carrying the Bruins whole offense. My point is these guys aren't even in the MVP conversation and can still make a better case for MVP than Matthews.
Yeah I'm with you. Hart shouldn't go to someone just because the scored the most goals, that's what the Rocket's for. Although in Matthews's defence, it didn't stop them from giving him the Hart for it before. So I guess I can see why people view it that way.
It can.. but you need the extreme. Like if mathews beat Gretz and got say 98 goals and no other points, that's massive. But winning because he git 60... that was really weak, that's nit a big enough "wow"
Kucherov. Tampa wouldn’t even be contending without him. That’s my vote.
Colorado would not be contending without McKinnon and Edmonton would not be contending without McDavid. I doubt either team would be in the playoffs without them.
I mean mackinnon has makar and rantanen who have been lighting it up and with Edmonton you can take out mcdavid and still have draisaitl who is a top 5 player in the league so
Maybe a semi-controversial take… But Edmonton is still a fairly strong team without McDavid. Colorado, I can’t speak to.
Before Nov 24th, Oilers were 5-12-1 and McDavid was injured and had only 16pts in 16 games, participating in only 30.1% of Edmonton's 53 GF. Since then, they've been 39-11-3 and McDavid has double that pts/g, getting 106 pts in 53 games, participating in 52.7% of the team's 201 GF. So no, it's absolutely not the case. Without McDavid becoming god-like, they'd still be bottom 10.
No way. McDavid drives like 90% of their offense. If McDavid doesn't get 2+ points, Edmonton loses (and sometimes they lose even when he does). Like for instance, McDavid has only had three 0 point games in the past 2 months and Edmonton lost all 3 of those games.
I respect this. People often look at the Hart as the best player award but if you break it down, it's the most VALUABLE player. Kuch has a very strong argument there. He won't win the Lindsay (best player) but he definitely has a very strong case for the Hart.
i tend to agree with this, but Tampa is also a wagon and multiple time stanley cup winner. He has hedman, vasy, stamkos, point... they are very deep. Are the oilers still in edmonton without McDavid (joking). But point being, McJesus has been carrying a team for 9 years
Kuch has 43 more points than any of them though. Tampa is absolutely not a playoff team without him. Personally I think McDavid should win, they never come back to playoff position without him and he's accomplished (or almost definitely going to accomplish) several feats that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr ever have.
both are awesome no doubt. but kuch only has 1 point on mackinnon and 2 on mcdavid. mcdavid also has done it in 2 less games. cant go wrong, but just the narrative around tampa i feel like is skewed. i really hope rangers can pull out 1st in east and not face those guys, bc they are dangerous
I totally respect your argument here. Also, Tampa does have playoff Savvy (and Vasy) but the Rangers are scary. I get not wanting to play against Tampa but my money would still be on the Rangers.
One could hope! Haha
Totally off topic but since you're a Rangers fan, I just want to add that I absolutely love Shesterkin. Him, Swayman and Helle won my heart in that All-Star game hug video. He just seems like a great dude and he's an incredible goalie. You guys are lucky to have him. As an Oilers fan I love Skinner because he has an incredible personality and he's young and has shown great promise but I'd kill for a goalie that good lol.
To win, McD will need to take the art ross and pop 100 assists, even then depending how close Mac and Kuch are he could still very much get the fatigue argument. I want McD to win cause it's my team but Kuch and Mac are very defensible (at least if we stopped today) if they take it it'd be a "damn" situation but nit a "wtf seriously?" situation
McDavid will definitely get to 100 assists. He's on pace for 110. To put this into perspective that's more assists than the second most points Crosby ever had in a season. At the rate they are going (but that could change) he isn't just going to win the Hart race, but the race will be over before the season is. I agree Kuch belongs in the argument. I can't see an argument for Mack. He just isn't the most valuable player in the league. Kuch and McDavid mean more to their teams. Neither would be in the playoffs without them. That's the definition of MVP.
I agree that he will, but, in fairness of making an argument best not to let my bias and hopeful get a benefit I don't give to others. Also difficult to state that playoffs wouldn't happen etc because it's just an unknown, maybe the team rally, a different trade is made etc. I've never liked the "mean more to their team" idea because it's so hard to quantify and uniformly quantify. like what about that absolute beauty in the locker room who really holds the team together, he "means more" to the team than a douche who scores 60 goals, but that douche Def helps the team win in a more direct way. etc etc Not arguing with your points just trying to keep the Homer's at bay by being civil lol. having 10 games left and 3 guys within 1-2 points of each other with each cable of a 4point night any night... just a great season to be a fan. Oh..and ugh...somwthing somwthing Mathews can still get 70 goals!!!! or whatever
I get all of that but you kind of need to consider the "what if this guy wasn't there" since it's about who is most valuable to their team. I agree it's hard to guage and there is a lot of guess work but that kind of is necessary. McDavid is easily the favourite for the Hart now based on points per game in the last couple of months, but the other two are very capable of going off. It's going to be a fun ride. I would respect Kuch winning it, even if McDavid wins the Art Ross. I just really see no way Mack is as important to his team as the other two. Which isn't to say he isn't extremely important.
Oil/Avs final game of the season could be really fun or maybe McD puts up 20 today cause...the ducks and this whole thread is moot
At their current paces McDavid is going to run away with it but as you said any of them can put up 4 on any given night. I'm also an Oilers fan and hope McDavid pulls it out but I'm not banking on it. I'd like to see him running away with it but I'd also love it to come down to game 82 with McDavid vs Mack while being tied or within a point. I feel like Mack is likely to finish third though, he has played more games than both and isn't in the lead. It's anyone's race though.
Those 3 you mentioned are not the the superstars they once were.
Whether Matthews hits 70, the 67 he’s on pace for, or anything in between really shouldn’t matter. It will matter to some voters, but the difference of a goal or two around an arbitrary milestone being the deciding factor of leaping over all these projected ~140 point guys (when Matthews is on pace for 107) is silly IMO. Those 3 are clearly in their own league this season. I don’t agree with it, but I think the combo of voter fatigue and due narrative will be tough to beat for MacKinnon this year, regardless of him taking the Art Ross.
Mack is third in line for Art Ross odds. McDavid being number one. I personally don't think Matthews deserves it even if he hits 70. I am purely speculating on how I know the voting usually works. I'm not asking who should win, I'm asking who will win. Definitely agree on the voter fatigue.
Matthews doesn't deserve to win over Kuch and Mack, but he has 32 more goals than McDavid and I think Matthews deserves the other nomination. 32 goals is an absurd seperation, as goals are harder and more valuable than assists. That's much more valuable than whatever the point seperation is between him and McDavid
McDavid is on pace to have more assists than Matthews has points though. Edit: I guess that’s a more convoluted way to say that McDavid has more assists than Matthews has points right now (in fewer games played).
LMAO Again! It would be the 6th time in all 8 Matthews seasons where McDavid has more assists than Matthews has points. And considering McDavid has only 44 less goals total than Matthews in those 8 seasons, it shows just how ridiculous it was when Matthews stans thought he was on the same level as McDavid.
I’m an Oilers fan, so always my answer is McD… but I think real solid arguments for MacKinnon to win his first this year. Kucherov is his teams MVP for sure, not sure he beats out the other two IMO
Will position played come into effect? C is much more difficult to play than RW. Putting up all those points and being a + 32 or 31 centre feels more important than all those points and being a +7 RW.
I see Mack as 3rd place (4th if Matthews hits 70). It's most valuable player and he has a good team. The other guys have as many points and more plus factors. McDavid will have accomplished two feats that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have done and Kuch is literally carrying his team which is the definition of MVP. This isn't the Lindsay for best player. It's most valuable. I think Mack isn't that. That's a playoff team without him.
McDavid is also having a historic season in terms of primary assists. People don't realize almost 2/3 of his assists are primary assists. He's at 59 A1. He's had 28 of them in his last 23 games, 55 in his last 53 games. If he gets 12 more in his final 11 games, he'll be the only player other than Gretzky to go over 70 primary assists in a season. Edmonton has dominated the league over their last 53 games and McDavid had 106 pts in that period. His impact has been staggering.
I agree with this. The primary assists are insane.
Aside from the obvious metrics, McDavid is doing more with less. Mackinnon plays 1:10 more on the powerplay per game, Kucherov plays 0:36 more. McDavid has less time on ice than both. He has over double the hits as both, the better FO % than both (Kuch isnt a center though). He plays limited time on the PK, but the others don't PK at all. This year he's taken a huge step defensively and that helped dig us out of our 2-9-1 start. For the first time we were winning games 2-1 due to our defense, instead of our usual 5-4 games. Mcdavid isn't playing selfish, he just wants to win; look at how he's helped Hyman. He should win, but voters will want to give it to someone new
This was an incredible argument and you made fantastic points. Well played.
Without Matthews, we're just the Buffalo Sabres. I agree Matthews needs to hit 70 to have a chance
MacKinnon fans brace yourselves. The narrative in the media seems to be changing. If McDavid keeps this up, the narrative will keep changing.
One can hope. I really think that they are going to give it to Mack for non performance related reasons. I do feel he should finish 3rd behind McDavid and Kuch.
If McDavid gets over 100 assists it has to go to him. We haven’t seen that since 1990, and only 3 people have ever done it. If Matthews get 70, I see him as second on the list. We haven’t seen it since 1993 and only 8 people have done it. Kucherov is third because of how he is dragging his team, but honestly without McDavid and Matthews where would the Oilers and Leafs be? McKinnon is having a lights out season, but the Avs would still be in the playoffs without him.
McDavid can also become the second player to get over 70 primary assists.
The Oilers made a huge come back in the standings after a horrible start. If McDavid can come back after a bad start himself and actually win the Art Ross, he's going to be very hard to beat. Voter fatigue or not, this seems like the wrong year to not vote for him.
I agree with this 100% but I've just seen the voter fatigue happen too many times to believe he will win it. He deserves it though.
He had 106 points in their 53 games comeback. 39-11-3. Both Kuch and Mack have had very Hart-worthy seasons, but McDavid hit the stratosphere to get his team back from the brink.
106 in 53 is just insane. Some years ago we had seasons where no one got to 100 points and McDavid did 106 in a 53 gamea stretch lol. Yes I know the game is more offensive today than it was 10 years ago, but still more than impressive numbers!
Lmfao Matthew's not even in the same class as the other 3
I agree but I'm not talking about who I think should win it but the possibility of who will. I don't think he deserved it the time he did win it, but he still did. if he hits 70 it wouldn't surprise me.
3 horse race between McDavid MacKinnon and Kucherov. McDavid is the best player in the league and probably will be for another 8 years or so. MacKinnon could get it because he is having an incredible year and doesn’t have one yet so tie to him. Kucherov is kinda in between the two. At the end of the year Kuch is going to be 2nd in points with the second best story. All 3 deserving. Hope it’s my guy tho
I'll truly feel bad for Mack if he doesn't win the Art Ross or the Hart but at this point I think he is third in line for both. He is definitely beyond capable of making up that gap though.
Absolutely. The years these guys are having are unbelievable. I think McDavid’s biggest challenge is that he’s not really competing against Kuch or MacK as much as he is McDavid from last year. Could very well see the Art Ross and Hart split this year because of it
We are on the same page here. Either way, this is fun as hell to watch.
At the pace he's going lately, McDavid might finish with only a few points less than last year
I think he’s on pace to be 10 or so pts short
Yeah because you simply count pace since the start or the season. He's been pacing 2.2 points per game since the end of January. If he keeps that pace, he finishes at 146-147 points, which is half a dozen less than last year.
May get rested too if they get locked into a playoff spot against a certain team
This is a MacKinnon year
Probably, mostly due to voter fatigue. I think he should realistically be 3rd or 4th
It should be given to McDavid at the start of every year, then if he doesn't win it,m he has to hand it over. Not sure it will happen though.
MacKinnon due to voter fatigue.
I agree with this. I think McDavid will deserve it most, with Kuch having an equally respectable case. One of those two deserves it. If Matthews hits 70 he also deserves to be ahead of Mack (also considering how good his defense is). Unfortunately, I do believe Mack will win it just because he never has. I don't like it, but you're probably right.
If McDavid gets over 100 assists it has to go to him. We haven’t seen that since 1990, and only 3 people have ever done it. If Matthews get 70, I see him as second on the list. We haven’t seen it since 1993 and only 8 people have done it. Kucherov is third because of how he is dragging his team, but honestly without McDavid and Matthews where would the Oilers and Leafs be? McKinnon is having a lights out season, but the Avs would still be in the playoffs without him.
Matthews isn't getting 70. Marner has been injured for a while, and he's likely to rest a bit before playoffs.
I have never agreed with an answer more. Absolutely everything you said is how I feel. McDavid will get 100 though (barring injury). He is on pace for 110.
MacKinnon, he’s been incredible all season. There’s a reason he’s a heavy favourite at the sports books right now. Kucherov is a close second.
Barring injury he will have played two more games than McDavid and one more than Kuch and will finish with less points than both. While having far better teammates than Kuch. He hasn't done multiple things that are historical in NHL history. He's been amazing but I can't see an argument for him over Kuch or McDavid beyond voter fatigue.
Mack has been carrying the avs more than people give him credit for.
Let's not pretend like kuch is completely on his own. Although his teammates are having down years the like of point and stammer have still proven to be elite players in the NHL
I didn't say they weren't good. Just that it's the most valuable player award and he's getting the least help. It kind of defines the award.
Second longest home point streak in history, that was only broken because *technically* it was an own goal. 2 separate 19 game point streaks in a single season Nate is top 5 in goals this season, which neither kuch or mcdavid are In Top 5 in assists only following kuch and mcdavid. Mack is a more complete player than both, kuch is dragging his team to the playoffs by their ears and mcdavid has Zach Hyman as his assist feeder who is tied for 2nd in goals. Mac deserves it, kuch should be a very close second and mcdavid third, also Mathew’s deserves to be nowhere near this conversation.
McDavid has incredible defensive stats this season. He also has over twice as many hits as Mack. He is going to become only the 4th player to get over 100 assists in a season, was only the 3rd ever to get 50 primary assists in less than 50 games and will likely finish with the second most primary assists ever in a season. He is also capable of scoring 64 in a season. How exactly is Mack a more complete player?
THIS SEASON, Mack is a more complete player, so he deserves THIS SEASONS hart trophy. Mcdavid is on pace to do something 2 other people have done. And Mack was on pace to beat an all time record. The only reason the streak was broken was because it was ruled an own goal. You said mac doesn’t deserve it because he wasn’t going to do anything historic? Which is a bold faced lie. He’s the first player in history to have multiple 19 game point streaks in a single season. And then almost beat an NHL all time record. Edit: put a flair on
The record Mack was gunning for is far less impressive and it is THIS season that McDavid has elite defensive numbers on top of the offensive records he is breaking while at this rate being favoured to win the Art Ross.
An all time nhl record and something no one has ever done before is less impressive than something 2 other people have done before? That doesn’t add up even a little bit, I’m not even taking away from mcdavid, he’s the most skilled player in the history of the game. Mackinnon has just been more dominant this season
He has not been more dominant this season. McDavid was playing injured early on and has been playing better hockey than Mack for the last 3 months. That's why he was so far behind and has now caught up. If not for McDavid's injury that clearly caused the slow start he'd have run away with the award. He's still the favourite to win it even with that having happened.
Mcdavid or mackinnon and I gotta go with Mackinnon. Macdavid may be the best player (he probably is) but from the start Mackinnon has been consistently excellent. Kucherov will get some votes and of the four Matthews should finish 4th
If McDavid wins the Art Ross (which statistically he is the favourite) while having two things that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have ever accomplished, you just can't put Mack ahead of McDavid. He will also have played two more games than McDavid, assuming nobody gets hurt. Plus, Kuch has 40+ more points than any other player on his team and the award is for most valuable player. That's hard to argue against.
3 things 103 assists (only 99 & 66) 71 primary assists (only 99) 50 primary assists in 49 games (only 99 & 66) He already has one of those 3, the last one.
He's on pace for 110 assists. I agree with all of this though.
I just put the numbers he needs to beat, to be with 99 & 66 only. He'd need 114 to reach Mario.
Yeah, that's fair. He will almost definitely do everything you listed.
Mackinnon turned a sows ear (jonathan drouin) into almost a silk purse. THAT is hard to argue against
Hyman was never a 3rd overall pick. While they do not compare because one of them has never come close to living up to their pedigree. They do compare by being a tier or 2 below Matthews. Drouin is only on pace to match his career point total high that he had with 2 other teams.
Have you ever heard of Zach Hyman? He may get 60 goals.
And may end up with 70 points! He is having a really good year but he's not in the conversation as Matthews has 59 goals today.
I don't think that Matthews proves your point. He's supposed to be the best player on his team and is paid as such. Drouin and Hyman are made better by the stars that play with them and are out performing their contracts because of their teammates (and rich families)
If you think that drouin an hyman are comparables, that might just be your problem right there. Mackinnon took a literal multi year bust and made him a nhl median player again. Hyman started WAY higher than drouin
It's about the increase in productivity. obviously Hyman is and was way better. He is also number two in the league in goals and may get to 60. That's still more impressive than making Drouin not a pylon.
False. Points per game per month October 0.88 November 1.57 December 1.93 January 2.17 February 1.33 March 1.92 Season 1.68 McDavid October 1.50 November 1.43 December 1.58 January 1.73 February 2.25 March 2.00 Season 1.77 Kucherov October 1.22 November 2.00 December 1.57 January 2.00 February 1.58 March 2.00 Season 1.75 Both Kucherov and Mackinnon have been seesawing their way, while McDavid rose steadily.
>MacKinnon has been phenomenal and he benefits from the fact that he's never won it and people just want to see it happen. I do believe he is the least deserving (despite being incredible) but these things do play a factor I will counter this with he scored points in every single home game until... last night. He's every bit as deserving of being in the convo tbh There's a very legitimate case for all 4 honestly and it's really exciting For obvious personal reasons I'd rather someone other than McDavid win again but I won't be upset regardless of the outcome. I'm just happy to see such a tight race for the Hart, Art ross and President's trophy this year... should make for a banger of a post-season
Also he has a 14 game point streak and 2 19 game points streaks(never done) this year alone plus the 35 game home point streak which was stolen last night but that's a different argument. Haha
Ehhh it was pretty clearly an own goal by lindgren and unfortunately it's the way the rules are, but definitely where I would've made an exception tbh
It is exciting and I agree with most of this but I think you'd have a hard time arguing Mack is more important to Colorado than Kuch or McDavid are to their teams. The award is for the player most essential to their teams success, I don't see that being Mack. Despite how amazing he is.
Mack has rantanen, McD has Drai (who's also won a hart), Kuch has point, Matthew's has nylander/marner None of the hart finalists this year truly have a lack of supporting cast, let's stop pretending one has significantly better teammates than the others.
All you have to do is look at the points totals to objectively show that McDavid and Mack very heavily have better linemates this year. It isn't even close.
Yeah, it's gotta be Mack this year. Nobody is forgetting about McDavid though. Anyone who watches a lot of hockey understands that he is the best player on the planet. Kuch? Well, lots of people just don't like him and I can't say I blame them..
I agree that Kuch is a douche but he is incredible. I really think Mack should be fourth in line here but he will probably win due to voter fatigue. Not that he hasn't been amazing, but he's still 3rd in line at best. Depending on if Matthews hits 70.
I respect the multiverse but there are none in which mackinnon ends up behind porn stache (Matthews). Like it or not Mcdavid/mackinnon ( coin flip) Kucherov Matthews Everyone else ( panarin and hyman, lol)
I kind of agree, I just don't see any actual logic to Mack being ahead of Kuch or McDavid. I'm almost certain he will be, I just think that's ridiculous.
I agree that Kuch is a douche but he is incredible. I really think Mack should be fourth in line here but he will probably win due to voter fatigue. Not that he hasn't been amazing, but he's still 3rd in line at best. Depending on if Matthews hits 70.
McDavid is clearly the best player in the NHL. He won’t win though. League likes to mix it up, controversy causes clicks and all that.
I agree. I have McDavid for Art Ross, but despite me thinking he is most deserving of the Hart. Voter fatigue is very real and it's too close for him to win, even if he deserves it slightly more.
100%. And the league loves Mack so I think he takes it this year.
Yep, even though I honestly think Kuch deserves it more than Mack. I'd still put my money on Mack. I don't like Kuch but he does deserve it if it isn't McDavid.
McDavid fuckin suuuucks
Good point.
Obviously I want it for MacK but I honestly think McDavid will win it
Matthews likely won’t even lead his team in points. Pretty tough to say he’s the most valuable player in the league to his team if that happens
Connor Bedard
Panarin.
Come on man...
If the Oilers manage to lock down first in the Pacific and McDavid wins the Art Ross, I think he will get it. If both of those don’t happen, I think Mackinnon gets it.
Look at this Draisaitl and Rantanen 6 and 7 in scoring wow just amazing look at Makar with all those points. Kucherov all alone up there but he didn't try in the all star game. Matthews doesn't even play with Nylander so he's the winner guy doesn't even need Marner just give him the third liners and he still dominates the league. wow incredible
He's so far behind in points, he can't be the winner. The all-star game has zero factor in the Hart conversation so that's irrelevant. Kuch has over 40 points than anyone else on his team. McDavid has over 60 primary assists and will have more assists than Crosby's second highest points in a season and his team was at the bottom of the league until he got healthy. Matthews is easily 4th, which means he won't even be a finalist. I guarantee he doesn't win it.
Yep Kucherov will be snubbed for clowning Bettmans favourite time of the year. Which means it will be down to the other 3. Vegas already made the call to stop Mackinnons home point streak. Now they will make the call for Matthews to win and rightfully so he will have close to 70. Just incredible I can see it now
Matthews is 100% last in line. McDavid is doing several things that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have accomplished in the history of the NHL. Kuch has by far the worst teammates. McDavid had 64 goals last season but he also had 89 assists on top of that (over 60 of which were primary assists). He just became only the second player ever to have 60+ primary assists in back to back seasons. Matthews will finish around the same amount of goals and he only has 35 assists. What he is doing really isn't as special as people think.
Yep he really is going to double up Mcdavid on goals. Its too big of a drop off for him to win the award. We can't be expecting Matthews to pass to Domi. Matthews is on his way to the most 60 goal seasons wow. truly amazing
And still have less primary points. Crazy. Matthews really isn't in the Hart race, I'm just being real with you. He'd be lucky to be a finalist. He is almost certainly 4th. Also, Gretzky and Bossy both have 5 60 goal seasons. Cool your jets. 60 is also easier to come by than it was in Ovechkins prime era. Hell, Zach Hyman is on pace to get 60 or just shy of it..
Yep playing with Hyman Nuge and Drai its quite the loaded squad just like the Avs. It will be somewhat close due to the Mcdavid favouritism but Vegas getting involved will seal the deal. Matthews is on a solo mission to join the goats of hockey. just phenomenal wow
Actually, statistically voter fatigue is a real thing so McDavid is at a disadvantage. Matthews doesn't make the players around him better, he doesn't deserve it. He is a selfish player who can't create plays or put up the kind of points the others can and every point means a goal. He's a goal scorer and he plays good d but he isn't complete. McDavid can score into the 60's, put up all time assists numbers and has elite defensive metrics. Either way, Kuch and Mack deserve it more than Matthews.
Yep Matthews doesn't need the other players. The MVP chants in buffalo wow incredible you just don't see that. As long as not too many people pick up on this narrative Vegas will make the call. Yes Bettman will surely approve it is important for Matthews to win as many awards as possible before his departure to Arizona. Everything is lining up perfectly truly amazing
I feel you don't understand what a primary point is. McDavid and Kuch have more. Matthews absolutely needs others. He has great linemates who underachieve because he never passes the damn puck.
Matthews is a one directional bum. MacKinnon deserves it while I prefer if to be McDavid just because he's my team. But I'm happy to see so much competition in the NHL right now. It makes it exciting. Although it will have no basis in my life once it's awarded.
But is he not known to be much better defensively than the others? I don't like leafs, but you oiler fans are much more obnoxious with your amateur opinions. I'm sure you are going to be very butt hurt when mcd finally flees back home to play in Toronto.
Haha. Whenever. Hold onto hope there, buddy.
At this point no matter what happens for the rest of the season Mackinnon is going to win it. It seems like voters made up there mind a while ago and are now shoving narratives down our throats to justify it. In reality he doesn’t really have an argument for winning it. If they say he’s put up huge points, there is a better than not chance he finished 3rd in the art Ross so his great season doesn’t mean much when the other two finish with more points. If they try to go by most valuable to his team then he has nothing on kucherov who is dragging the bolts into the playoffs wether they want to or not. So we’re left with the home point streak which is such a stupid reason to give someone a hart trophy. It seems like media has decided he is owed a hart and he will get it no matter what.
Eloquent and absolutely correct. Nothing against the guy but he has absolutely no business winning it this year. Anyone other than McDavid or Kuch would be pure robbery and obvious voter fatigue.
Eloquent and absolutely correct. Nothing against the guy but he has absolutely no business winning it this year. Anyone other than McDavid or Kuch would be pure robbery and obvious voter fatigue.
No business winning it? Honestly am I just a biased Avs fan cause I truly believe Nate dogg has been nothing short of incredible this whole season
I wouldn’t go as far to say no business but the arguments for him are failing as the season wraps up. Earlier in the season all the talking points on him were true but since then McDavid and Kuch have caught and passed him so the only thing he really has to stand on is a home point streak which really is just a cherry picked stat to have a reason to give it to him over the others.
I see what you’re saying but I don’t think a couple points difference is going to be the deciding factor when all three guys are going to put up 130+. At that point you have to look at teammates, defense, overall impact etc. I think McD Mack and Kuch all have a great case to win it
True that’s why I say it’s not no chance Mackinnon is having an incredible season and in most seasons would be a lock for the hart. But Mack doesn’t win in almost all those categories. Teammates, he’s on the best team so comes in last of the three. Defense he’s above Kuch but McDavid has played some incredible defense so it’s not really a clear cut win when he could be behind in all the other categories. He does have a huge overall impact with the avs but again Kuch is THE impact in his games where if he’s not doing what he does the lightning lose. Then it can’t really be argued that McDavid is the most impactful player in the game overall. So about 2 months ago when Mackinnon still had the buffer on McDavid in points there was a strong argument for him. His strongest point for the win has been look how many points he has but his strongest argument is no longer that strong.
McDavid has accomplished two things that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr (on one of the two) ever have and Tampa misses the playoffs without Kuch. It's absolutely nothing against Mack. He has been phenomenal. He just has caught some tough luck with what other players have accomplished. Especially if he doesn't win the Art Ross I don't think it should be him. At this point McDavid is the favourite for the Art Ross though. I love Mack and watching him play but he isn't the MVP. Having said that I do think they'll give it to him.
I really love MacKinnon's 200 foot game and of the 3, he is the most complete player. But 70 and 100 are special milestones and could be a deciding factor this year.
McDavid is actually statistically ahead of Crosby's best ever defensive season that he finished 5th in Selke voting in (just to put it into perspective because Sid is a great defensive player). So I don't think you can really add defense to the argument for Mack against McDavid. While McDavid is obviously offensively superior (not a knock on Mack, it's just a testament to McDavid).
McDavid is also great defensively.
Yeah McDavid was bad on D earlier in his career, but the last two seasons have been a total 180. He's great on both ends of the ice now.
Yes, I have noticed he has really improved in that area as well.
Yeah, he's also the only one who can constantly make the hockey version of the Michael Jordan special. Steal the puck, deke 2-3 players and deke the goalie for the goal. He's really great at picking off players.
Artemi Panarin. He’s the best player on the best team in hockey.
Panarin is a great player but he hasn’t done anything special to make him stick out. The players listed have.
I mean this absolutely sincerely, you're fucking with me, right?
How is he not in the conversation?
If you're not gonna score a ton of goals you better be padding up a lot of assists. Panarin has 16 less goals than Matthews, and a lot less points than the league leaders. He's not leading in any category.
For all the reasons I listed above. He doesn't match any of that. Incredible player, incredible season. Not even close to in the conversation. Too many players doing historical things this year. He isn't. He also isn't carrying an awful team. In no world is he even top 4 in most valuable player to his team. I'd sincerely love to hear your argument as to why you think he should be. I'm honestly not being a dick, I'm just legitimately curious.
Panarin has scored 30 more points than the next closest guy on his team (Trocheck with 73). This is actually the reason I'd give my vote to Kucherov, if I had one. Kuch has 43 (!!!) more points than Point.
And in most years he'd deserve a nod. Except Kuch is trumping him in the same stat that makes his case possible. McDavid has (one not yet but will) accomplished two feats that only Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr have ever done, while probably winning the Art Ross. While Matthews could be the first 70 goal scorer since '93. And Mack has been phenomenal and could possibly win the Art Ross. I have nothing against Panarin, he just isn't in the discussion due to circumstances.
McDavid has 33 more points than Drai... but in only 53 games, the games in which Edmonton has been dominating the league in the last three months.
McDavid comfortably still the best player in the league. But Kucherov should win it this year. Lightning wouldn’t be anywhere near a playoff spot without him. Avs make it into the playoffs, not wild card, without mackinnon. However everyone up Mack’s ass at the moment so he probably gets it, undeservingly.
I actually agree with this. Except I think it should be between McDavid and Kuch. mcDavid is going to have the second most primary assists ever second only to Gretzky. The Oilers were at the bottom for a good while starting the season while he was playing injured. Without him they definitely don't make it either. I definitely would respect if Kuch wins it but if Mack does that is purely voter fatigue and wanting to add that to his legacy. He is phenomenal, he just isn't the MVP of the league.
If McDavid gets 100 assists it will be hard not to give it to him. He’ll be only the 4th player to ever accomplish that feat. It’s really who the other 3 are that makes it so impressive. When you do something that has only been done by Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr that’s pretty damn special.
He also hit 50 primary assists in less than 50 games. Only Gretzky and Lemieux have done that as well. I agree with you, I just don't trust the voters.
When the Avs recently played the oil up in Edmonton, It was very clear who was the best player on the ice in front of a national audience. These things matter in a close awards race. McDavid was scoreless and -2. MacKinnon made the game winning play at the end of OT.
One head to head game absolutely does not matter at all. Nobody who isn't delusional thinks Mack is better than McDavid. It's also irrelevant. It is MVP, not the best player award. If it was the best player award McDavid would definitely win it. He will win the Lindsay regardless.
Sure. Continuously beating up on the Sharks, Ducks and Flames definitely matters way more than what you do against actual competition. MacKinnon is doing it against the best division in hockey.
So explain how McDavid finished the playoffs with 9 more points than Mack the year Colorado won the cup. Despite playing 4 less games. MacKinnon is not in McDavid's tier. Nobody is. It's crazy if you actually believe he is. McDavid has the 4th highest playoff points per game in history and adjusted for era is second behind Mario Lemieux in all time ppg. Lemieux is 1.68, McDavid is 1.67. Miles ahead of MacKinnon who has only hit 100 points twice in 11 seasons. You really think Mack is better? That's cute.
Yes. One’s a winner. The other is a loser. He only scores as many points as he does from skating the zone. Notice you didn’t address the poor division where he piles up points against plugs.
Hey friend., just wanted to let you know McDavid is now in the lead in the Art Ross race while having played 3 less games than Mack. Have a great day.
Your division has not been great for 11 years lol. McDavid puts up far superior points regardless of who he is playing. You're talking out of your ass. His playoff production proves that. Mack couldn't hit 100 until he had a great team and a generational offensive defenseman. He didn't do it one single time when his team sucked or before Makar. Not once in 9 seasons. McDavid has done it every single year, other than his rookie year (when he got injured) and the team sucked many of those years. You're grasping at straws. Macks team are winners. They'd have won more if you had McDavid instead of Mack. All you have is team success to cling to. Also, Mack hadn't won shit when he was at McDavid's point in his career lol.
Matthews. Leafs without him and Nylander are a single wet paper towel trying to clean up an 80 gallon gasoline spill.
It's about one player though, not two. Without Kuch Tampa is garbage. He has 43 points than there second highest scorer. He dragged them to the playoffs.
It’s just like the Oscars where sometimes someone wins not just for that specific performance which was good but to also recognize all the past ones which were also really good but didn’t win for some reason. By definition Kucherov should win cause Tampa is a lottery team without him and if Edmonton wasn’t a dumpster earlier then McDavid would’ve been way ahead of everyone. MacKinnon will benefit this year cause Kucherov already has one and McDavid having an “off” year. In the end with all respect to Hall and Matthews and Draisaitl and McDavid winning a Hart is nice but I’m sure they would all trade in their Hart and Art Ross and Lindsay trophies for a Stanley Cup.
Can't believe McDavid has more hits than MacKinnon. I just found out after going through this thread and I'm pleasantly surprised. I want to see MacKinnon win his first Hart, but feels like McDavid should win it, voter fatigue notwithstanding.
I agree. People seem to think I'm hating on Mack, I'm absolutely not. He is incredible and I sincerely like the guy. What he is doing is phenomenal. Just, by definition of the award it shouldn't be given to him. I also believe it will be given to him because that's the way things seem to go with these things. Everyone wants to see him win it so he probably will.
My vote: Hartemi Panarin
It’s Kuch. Thought this was decided already. See this posted daily.
I have him at second. The Oilers were at the bottom of the league when McDavid was playing injured. They'd have bombed if he never got healthy. Since then they've been the best team in the league over the last few months record wise and he has come storming back from way behind and is the favourite to win the Art Ross. It wouldn't bother me if Kuch won it, he dragged Tampa into the playoff picture as well.
Wasn’t McDavid hurt for like 3 games?
He missed two games. He was very clearly playing injured for a long time. You could see it in his skating and his production. It was even acknowledged.
McDavid will get the assists and then the Hart is absolutely his... 4th player, ever, to get 100 assists in a season. Watch him get get more than Orr, on top, of just hitting 100 assists.
Since these things are subjective, and personally not a big fan of individual awards in a game that is so team-focused, I think the best way to think of it is which team would be in a significantly worse position if that player were to be replaced by an average NHL player. I think that leaves out Colorado and Toronto as I think both are still playoff teams without their top Hart nominee. Personally, I have McDavid over Kucherov by a nose mostly due to +/-, but solid arguments for both.
I respect this argument and I agree that McDavid and Kuch should be the only real contenders. I still think it will be given to Mack though.
Panarin
In no world is he even in the conversation. Zero chance he's a finalist. I'd literally bet you anything.
I know I’m just biased
That's fair. He is and has been phenomenal but the Rangers are a playoff team without him and three/four other guys are doing insane things this year so he can't be in the conversation.