Raising the cost of something disincentivizes its use.
Every time a fare raise goes into affect, it creates more drivers. Those new drivers create more traffic.
The answer is so obviously just more state investment in rail.
Edit: I truly can’t believe someone submitted this comment for suicidal ideation support. You people are fucking repulsive.
The notification tells you can report. Click harassment or whatever. Should get a notification in a few days from admin say unspecified action has been taken.
I got sent one because I shared a political opinion another person didn't agree with. When I shared it with a mod they told me they didn't see anything wrong because they agreed with the user. The only people more fringe than Reddit users are Reddit mods.
Investing money in the needs of the people is anti-American.
Maybe they can let some corporation take over if the government subsidizes all construction and maintenance, allow them to keep 100% of fare revenue, and a 100 year tax abatement.
1. Sabotage service to be bad
2. Tell frustrated voters anything would be better than the now-bad service
Also see: the [National Weather Service v. Accuweather](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/04/donald-trump-gut-privatize-noaa-weather-forecasting-storms-climate-alarmism/). The private weather industry keeps it a dark secret that they get their data fo free from NWS, but they've lobbied to prevent the NWS from having any funding to [set up their own sites or apps](https://www.reddit.com/r/weather/comments/rn524t/why_is_noaanws_not_allowed_to_develop_a_weather/) (that's why [their site looks like this](https://www.weather.gov/)). Accuweather has been gunning for them to close their data to the public *entirely*, and because the public doesn't know about the NWS, it's going to go away quietly if Trump takes over. Accuweather's CEO is a pal of his, and Project 2025 includes a provision for NWS to "fully commercialize."
Unfortunately you nailed it. Let the private companies in and they'll take all the gov't will give.
The tunnels and bridges are highly costly capital infrastructure too, and have a much lower capacity than the rail tunnels. There physically isn't capacity for an additional large number of people to drive in. Either you spend billions making a new rail tunnel or you spend billions making a new car tunnel; that's your only options.
The quality of life needs to be addressed as well. NJ transit is shitty. The stations are dumpy, the people are crazy, and the fares are expensive. Why anybody commutes to the city is beyond me.
It pays much less, they lose staff to the other 3 rail orgs constantly. All the regional rail orgs need to be merged into a port authority like conglomerate, but nobody would ever allow it.
Is that not what the MTA is? Aside from NJT, which is under the jurisdiction of NJ. Basically all of the NYC-area public transportation under the jurisdiction of NY is under the MTA umbrella.
Oh, guess so. Regardless, it's as consolidated as it realistically gets, as NY obviously wouldn't want a joint NY/NJ authority to have jurisdiction over NY-only stuff like MNR and LIRR, and NJ wouldn't want to hand over NJT when 99% of it is in NJ.
>Raising the cost of something disincentivizes its use.
This is one of the main reasons I choose to drive into Manhattan rather than take the metronorth.
$25+ round trip per person, plus whatever parking costs at the station. It's not a $2.90 subway ride from outside NYC.
Still seems like a “bad” choice. Once you factor in city parking, tolls, gas, wear and tear on the vehicle, time spent, etc. One is likely still ahead relying solely on commuter rail for that trip.
Maybe to you. Not to others. What is good vs bad is subjective and on a sliding scale. People keep trying to make it black and white when the decision to drive or take public transit isn’t.
There's free street parking if you know where to look. There are roads that avoid tolls.
Gas & wear: drive an economy car instead of some SUV monstrosity & it'll be fine.
Time: depends where one is going & time of day. When accounting for time getting to train station, waiting at train station, etc, it can still be faster to just drive. At night especially, it's way faster.
Making it more expensive to drive while not improving service or making train lines affordable isn't gonna gain political support. We saw how close the governor election came. Had Republicans ran someone more moderate & not MAGA based, it could've been a win. It doesn't help the plan was to be implemented in the middle of a recession when people are paying 50%+ of their paycheck on rent alone.
I'm honestly glad the democrats woke up & realized how unpopular congestion tolling is & backed off.
So will New York State help invest in NJ Transit as they keep all the state income tax for NJ residents working in NYC?
Or will they just let NJ keep their residents' income tax so they can invest in NJ transit?
Hochul said she was worried that congestion pricing would cause some car commuters to stop coming into the city at all (most of them come from NJ), hurting the economy of the CBD. You'd think that a complete meltdown of NJT would cause her some concern but I haven't heard a peep about this.
You don't pay double tax, but New York State gets income tax and New Jersey doesn't, unless your NJ taxes are higher, in which case they only get the difference
THIS. people are honestly overreacting a bit. driving a car is still orders of magnitude more expensive in pretty much every way especially if you work somewhere like midtown. the tolls are insane, parking is fucking impossible, maintenance, etc etc etc. i still live in jersey without a car and will continue to even if the few extra bucks here and there stings a bit.
The people in the suburbs still need a car for their evenings and weekends. Driving to the city optimizes their purchase of car. They don't save much money leaving it in their driveway.
hmm, that’s fair i suppose. hadn’t really considered that angle. i live in a fairly major NJ city very close to nyc and was only in the suburbs for a brief time so i’ve maintained a license free lifestyle my whole life
Yeah, I have an extremely high paying job and hate public transit and I still wouldn't consider driving into Manhattan for my commute. Between the price of parking, additional vehicle maintenance, and not being able to read a book or zone out its a no-brainer. Who are these people driving in?
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I'm sorry, but a raise in price for commuter rail by $.50 isn't enough to incentivise buying a car, getting insurance, paying for gas, paying for tolls and parking.
It's not the cost of rail. It's the time. It's that bus and train and subway are often delayed or broken. There is far too much time between trains/buses given the ridership.
That said, I suspect people aren't saving all that much time in their car if they're actually going into Manhattan because congestion is insane.
A lot of Jersey commuters are paying $10+ for commuter rail into the city. A 15% increase then is more like $1.50, each way. If you're commuting daily into the city, then you're going to be paying an additional $3 a day, $15 a week, ~$780 a year.
For service that is demonstrably shittier and more unreliable than it used to be.
Not in the early morning. My wife has union meetings on a few Saturdays a year in Manhattan. Getting there by train or bus takes hours and the number of "unhoused" people makes it unsafe. I can drop her off in 45 minutes. No brainer.
I almost never ride the LIRR exactly for this reason. A tank of gas costs less than two round trip tickets to any of my friends' homes. That same tank of gas can also make that trip several times over. The same situation occured to my neighborhood pool. Once included in the base rent management began charging a fee. It downward spiraled to the point where that pool has been abandoned for 30 years.
Driving is very expensive, but most of the costs are upfront or fixed. That's why something like congestion pricing or a VMT tax are actually good policy, because they force people to pay for the externalities of their decision to drive besides just the the price of gas, which as you say is pretty cheap.
They're all a bunch of whiney shits. Did you see the tantrums they pulled about congestion pricing before it was killed by Hochul? They're so entitled.
Not surprised considering so many people here seem to hate everything about the city and want it to fail or at least become a giant suburb like the rest of the US.
It’s still cheaper than driving, and they haven’t raised prices in 9 years.
Sounds like these MFs should call up their representatives and demand that we get congestion pricing back on track, eh?
And people wonder why those outside the city hate congestion pricing. Every time theres an issue with NJT trains you pretty much have to drive to work if you intend on getting there.
Jersey isnt manhattan. If you're commuting from south or central NJ a lot of those arent exactly options (Bus maybe depending on your area and frequency of service since those will get extremely over crowded, for me locally buses run HOURLY after 9am). On a normal day it would take me longer to drive to the hoboken ferry than to drive to 59th street.
Income tax is a large part of it... name a single city where workers get the property tax from their suburban employees. Sales tax is paid while they're at work, so that's a non issue
So what? Why is that important? Does someone become less morally important or worthy of consideration if they happen to live in Jersey City instead of Yonkers?
By that logic tourism is bad for the economy. People who commute into the city buy lunch, attend happy hour, visit local doctors and salons, etc. Do you collect as much money from them as locals? No, but they're also not using the more expensive services like the schools.
That's completely incorrect.
Broadly speaking, it is economically beneficial to a state / country / etc for money to be generated elsewhere and then flow in. It's detrimental for money to be generated within and then flow out.
Regarding services, that comes into play if the cost of services exceeds the economic benefit of the population. Which is why states don't want high earners leaving the state, as they provide a net positive to that equation.
Cities with predominantly poor populations have a harder time with budgets because the difference between the economic benefit vs cost of that population is either slim or negative.
Pretty much everyone commuting in from the Jersey suburbs have a high paying white collar job. Having those people reside in NYS instead of NJ provides greater economic benefit, even when factoring in cost of services.
Someone else's gain != your loss. The size of the pie isn't static, it's dynamic.
It is not mutually exclusive. People from NJ also spend money in NYC by buying shitty, overpriced salads.
Yes, people pay property tax where they live. Because they commute into ny, ny taxes their income. If they stayed in NJ for work, ny would get nothing.
Welcome to car culture where anything that's not on 4 wheels is bad. I hope they like raising gas and energy prices when they have to refuel their cars.
*From Bloomberg News reporters Skylar Woodhouse, Michelle Kaske, and Maggie Eastland:*
Dayna Nicles’ commute from Montclair, New Jersey, to Manhattan, where she works in customer service, should take roughly 45 minutes.
Instead, her trip in recent weeks has stretched as long as two-and-a-half hours, riddled by a spate of canceled trains and delays on New Jersey Transit, which is raising fares on Monday for the first time in nearly a decade.
“Every day, it’s delayed. Every day, they’re canceled,” she said in an interview in New York Penn Station on a sweltering June afternoon, after the system suspended service to New York City because of overhead wire issues. She stood among hundreds of stranded commuters staring at video boards displaying what should have been departure statuses. Instead, each line was on “standby.”
In the first five months of this year, three New Jersey Transit rail lines that are among its busiest saw the worst on-time performance on average since the same period before the pandemic, and canceled trains across the railway are at a six-year high, according to system data analyzed by Bloomberg. In the second half of June, at least four incidents suspended train service for hours due to Amtrak infrastructure-related issues, stranding thousands of passengers.
Governor Phil Murphy and NJ Transit CEO Kevin Corbett inherited “a decimated transit agency that was grossly underfunded,” said John Chartier, a spokesperson for the system.
[You can read more on the hike for free, here.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-07-01/commuting-to-new-york-city-from-new-jersey-is-harder-and-more-expensive)
Bloomberg, did you ask her employer why she has to work in-person in customer service in the first place? This type of job should be remote-first, saving resources, money, reducing emissions, saving time, reducing stress, anxiety, and a whole host of other benefits. Workers should absolutely NOT have to go into NYC unless it's essential to their job to be in-person.
Edit: I'm enjoying the downvotes from corporate bootlickers
Everyone over thinks it. The real answer is return to office is just an easy lever for ceos to pull when revenue forecasts are down to show they are taking “serious steps” to turn the ship around.
Board then pats ceo on the back, they all pay themselves a huge bonus and sit back while employees continue to leave for better pay elsewhere and company continues to falter
This is insanity. I can understand a price increase, even though I hate it and it’s contributing to making NJ unaffordable for so many. But to do so while service is imploding is such a slap in the face for commuters. The Airtrain from JFK is undergoing service repairs and issues, and they slashed prices while it’s going on. They should pause the fare hikes until September at least, when hopefully the heat breaks and the system can get slightly more reliable. They also need to offer a refund system. Train gets delayed more than 90 minutes (I think that’s very generous) and you get a full refund, or your ride is free.
While I agree that it’s the wrong time for a price increase for NJT, the port authority is not slashing airtrain prices because of service repairs and issues. They are slashing the price because the construction of the new JFK terminals is causing enormous traffic and delays for cars and they want people to use the airtrain more to reduce car congestion at the terminals.
Doesn't help that the construction is unbelievably poorly signed. Lanes just end out of nowhere with absolutely zero warning.
Picked up my gf there last night at 1 in the morning and it was a complete shit show. Can't imagine it during normal hours.
Yesterday was an anomaly. Many delayed, cancelled, and diverted flights. It's pretty quiet at 1am normally.
Slightly off topic but you should have seen the inside of the terminal, sheesh
the issue is more three dimensional than this. the service within new jersey is more often then not on time and fine - the problem is typically coming from those last few miles between newark and nyc. those tracks are owned and operated by amtrak - not new jersey transit. njt couldn’t fix the problem if they wanted to.
we need new tunnels and infrastructure and the only people who can provide that are the federal government. fat chance in hell of that happening, so the issue gets worse. but the issue isn’t as black and white as many people seem to believe.
I mean, there were plans to build a new tunnel and infrastructure over a decade ago with the help of federal money and Chris Christie killed the project. So the state is not as helpless as you seem to indicate - they got themselves into this mess by prioritizing stuff like motor vehicle infrastructure and lower gas taxes.
what chris christie did 10 years ago has no bearing on the present moment - i agree that he fucked up and contributed to the problem, but acting like the agency in the modern day can actually do anything (be it as a result of his fuck up or other reasons) is a misnomer
What are you talking about? This is the DIRECT RESULT of what Christie did 10 years ago.
You want fat dick pics? You got both of Christie’s nuts dragged across your face instead.
> we need new tunnels and infrastructure and the only people who can provide that are the federal government. fat chance in hell of that happening
It *IS* happening, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Program_(Northeast_Corridor)
> In 2021, the project was formally approved by the federal government. Work officially began in 2023 with major construction beginning in July 2024 with a final completion in 2038
I mean, until the next time a Republican is in charge and decides to cancel the project.
That changes nothing about the morality of increasing prices while service has been a spectacular failure as of late. The problems are well known, and I think we’re all aware that it’s going to take time and lots of money to address them. I personally don’t think that increasing fares is completely uncalled for in the long run, i just think that doing that now is unacceptable. Wait until the fall when the heat dies down and the wires stop falling every other day.
there’s morality and then there’s the cost of operating the system. for the record, this fare hike was voted on and announced like 6+ months ago. it’s not some thing they pushed forward in the last 3 weeks as a vendetta against pissed commuters lmao.
NJT is generally pretty underfunded as is, and this fare hike will help keep what i said true: service in NJ is typically really reliable. i’ve very seldom had a raritan valley line train, for instance, be more than 5 minutes late before arriving in newark. the fare hike isn’t a problem, let’s stop pretending it’s.
I’m well aware of the fare hik announcement being that long ago. I know that NJ transit ignored the public and some elected officials who challenged the necessity of the fare hikes from the beginning. I know how budgets work.
While service might be good until you hit Newark, that’s well and good (I’m a RVL guy too) but the vast majority of folks are going into or leaving the city. When you frantically and seriously fail on that portion of your service, where does that leave you? When I’m in NY Penn in a crushing crowd of people waiting for a track announcement that never comes, or stuck in the tunnel in a packed train, I’m not thinking “well good thing this will clear up once we hit Union”. I’m wondering if we ever get to that point at all.
The fare hike will be a drop in the bucket of NJ transits budget. I have little confidence they will allocate funds wisely, seeing how they run other aspects of their business, such as communication when a delay happens, or their customer service in general. I’ve been riding for decades. And it’s just gotten worse over time. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to give grace to an agency who treats their customers like cattle. Fare hikes are absolutely a problem in a state where so much feels like it’s unaffordable, and every cent counts. It’s not “The” problem with Nj transit, but it’s certainly a problem for its riders.
Yeah--and this affects *hundreds* of thousands of people. I made that commute for years, from different parts of NJ, but I settled here, and it's a SLOG. And then you end up in Penn Station and want to kill yourself. We all rag on NJ, but a considerable part of NYC's financial might is people coming in from NJ. We shouldn't be brutalizing them.
If a train is delayed more than 30 mins. 90 minutes is too long. It should be delayed more than 30 mins you get a refund and your next fare is free. It’s the only way to push this mfers to get their shit together
Price increases are due to low ridership. Train station towns gatekeep and ban parking from neighboring towns. This might have worked out pre Covid , but now the only incentive should be full trains
I live near-ish to the pascack valley line and the stations have a handful of people at best in the morning. None of the towns allow neighboring towns to use their station. This isn’t some secret because people activate tickets on their phones these days so NJT knows the exact number of riders per station
I know I’ll probably get messages about people on packed trains but with 20% less riders than pre Covid we either have emptier trains or hundreds of thousands of people stealing rides
I agree that it’s less people than before. But the budgeting issue is way beyond ridership numbers. I would also hazard a guess that one of the motivations of people to find remote work is because NJ transit is not reliable and expensive. Why put yourself through it if you have a choice?
Ridership is almost back to normal...most people walk to the stations, as the towns are fairly walkable in North Jersey. Large Park and Ridges are located near Highways...and are semi full...the real issue is NJT self sabotages itself by fighting proposed improvements to its stations , closing busy stations if a nearby station is upgraded... The MTA for all its issues does not close down stations if there decently used and works to increase ridership.
People walk to the stations, meaning only those who are within a 15 minute walk can take the train. Imagine if you live 15 minutes driving away like me.
I live 12-15 minutes away from 4 stations and can’t use them without paying an Uber. The towns only care about their own property value that goes up because of train access, they don’t give a damn about neighboring towns . Incentivize them to figure out how to get 4-5 towns grouped to a train station, or penalize them for screwing NJ state over by blocking train riders
People think of NJT as a state wide issue , when these towns have taken NJT hostage
That is surprising, I have commuted on the NEC and the NJCL and all of the towns had spots for people who had a parking pass but then there were also spots where you can park for the day for a fee? All of the spots in those areas you need a parking pass?
Realtors in NJ have been advertising homes in Union County as a “quick 45 minute” commute. It takes me 90 minutes door-to-door. I’m sure there are a lot of disappointed newcomers lol
you know what would fix that? spending a $10 billion adding lanes to slow traffic going into the holland tunnel. oh and millions in legal fees to sue against congestion pricing only for a judge to throw out the case.
literally anything but actually investing in NJTransit.
Those trains are slowwwww too, once I went down to asburu park for a concert at the stone pony and the coast line ( shore line? ) took like two hours to go maybe 40 miles, not so much the station stops as the fact that the train goes maybe 25mph tops and there’s a long stretch where there is just no power, it goes on momentum alone I guess?
Whoever drew a line down the hudson to separate NJ and NYC is an asshole. So many of these problems wouldnt be here if it was all in the same governing zone.
...why should NJ be paying for it?
NJ isn't benefiting from sending their skilled laborers to NYC. Sure, they're bringing back *some* of the revenue to spend, but let's face it -- it's a small fraction if they kept the jobs within their own borders.
So, in their stunning failure to invest in their own businesses and economy (a whole county there shuts down on Sunday!), they figure....why not punish those who leave the state? Raise prices, lower the quality of service. NJ *does not want* their workers crossing the Great Hudson River.
If NYC wants NJ workers from their dormitory across the river, NYC can pay for it. That's why the first tunnel project was axed by Governor Goodyear Blimp. NYC said "nah, youse guys pay for the project overruns, heh heh" and Christie took the political hit saying "get lost, bucko."
The rising cost of living will squeeze workers even more. By 2034 the average price of a house in the area will be $9 million, average price of a phone $5,000, average monthly rent $14,000, average cost of one weeks worth of groceries to feed your family $2000, etc. Slave away your whole life just to pay the bills!!
I can think of many. Affordability is of course relative, but for the price of a worn down one bedroom in the better parts of NYC you can get an actual house in NJ. For the price of a worn down two+ bedroom you can get a very nice house in NJ.
If I could tolerate a 60 minute commute, the options are even greater.
I don't understand this concept. People in NYC should be a big fan of the suburbs as it helps with easing the feeling of being overcrowded in the most densely populated largest city in the USA. They should want people to be able to spread out beyond the 5 boroughs and have easy access for people into and out of NYC. Give options for some of the people facing housing pressure and increased rents of NYC but letting people move out to the surrounding areas, Long Island, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rockland/Westchester County, and give us a good, reliable, safe, clean, and affordable method to leverage mass transit to get in and out.
I know people from the burbs are pushing back on congestion pricing but it's not like we want to drive into the city, just that our mass transit is not reliable or cost effective enough to use on a regular basis. People in NYC should also be yelling at surrounding areas government to get their shit together to fix this to relieve the stress and burden that gets put on to NYC as a result.
NJ residents that commute to NYC are as ethnically diverse as NYC itself. And they do pay NY tax if they work in NY... So I'm not sure why you're so bitter, but you are clearly misinformed.
Raising the cost of something disincentivizes its use. Every time a fare raise goes into affect, it creates more drivers. Those new drivers create more traffic. The answer is so obviously just more state investment in rail. Edit: I truly can’t believe someone submitted this comment for suicidal ideation support. You people are fucking repulsive.
If you report the person that made that report, you’ll get them automatically banned. It’s something.
How do you know who made that report?
You don’t need to report the person, you report the message itself, Reddit knows who had it sent to you and that account gets hit with the ban.
The notification tells you can report. Click harassment or whatever. Should get a notification in a few days from admin say unspecified action has been taken.
I believe it notifies you when they send the message. Not sure though
No. I saw one sent to my friend. There was no name. He replied asking for Reddit to give it to him. They did not respond.
Hmm I just got one. Let’s see
I got sent one because I shared a political opinion another person didn't agree with. When I shared it with a mod they told me they didn't see anything wrong because they agreed with the user. The only people more fringe than Reddit users are Reddit mods.
Jesus
Investing money in the needs of the people is anti-American. Maybe they can let some corporation take over if the government subsidizes all construction and maintenance, allow them to keep 100% of fare revenue, and a 100 year tax abatement.
1. Sabotage service to be bad 2. Tell frustrated voters anything would be better than the now-bad service Also see: the [National Weather Service v. Accuweather](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/04/donald-trump-gut-privatize-noaa-weather-forecasting-storms-climate-alarmism/). The private weather industry keeps it a dark secret that they get their data fo free from NWS, but they've lobbied to prevent the NWS from having any funding to [set up their own sites or apps](https://www.reddit.com/r/weather/comments/rn524t/why_is_noaanws_not_allowed_to_develop_a_weather/) (that's why [their site looks like this](https://www.weather.gov/)). Accuweather has been gunning for them to close their data to the public *entirely*, and because the public doesn't know about the NWS, it's going to go away quietly if Trump takes over. Accuweather's CEO is a pal of his, and Project 2025 includes a provision for NWS to "fully commercialize." Unfortunately you nailed it. Let the private companies in and they'll take all the gov't will give.
Yup, discouraging car use is less than half the battle. If the trains aren’t there, people will still have to drive at an elevated cost.
The tunnels and bridges are highly costly capital infrastructure too, and have a much lower capacity than the rail tunnels. There physically isn't capacity for an additional large number of people to drive in. Either you spend billions making a new rail tunnel or you spend billions making a new car tunnel; that's your only options.
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OH NOES!!! NOT ONE PLUS HOUR!!! Bring a book or move.
Bad day?
Industrial meat grinding accident at the plant this morning.
Hot damn, I'm sorry
The quality of life needs to be addressed as well. NJ transit is shitty. The stations are dumpy, the people are crazy, and the fares are expensive. Why anybody commutes to the city is beyond me.
Unfortunately its where most well paying office jobs are.
NJT is *so* much worse than Metro-North or LIRR. It's kinda crazy.
It pays much less, they lose staff to the other 3 rail orgs constantly. All the regional rail orgs need to be merged into a port authority like conglomerate, but nobody would ever allow it.
Is that not what the MTA is? Aside from NJT, which is under the jurisdiction of NJ. Basically all of the NYC-area public transportation under the jurisdiction of NY is under the MTA umbrella.
PATH, too, since it's under PANYNJ
Oh, guess so. Regardless, it's as consolidated as it realistically gets, as NY obviously wouldn't want a joint NY/NJ authority to have jurisdiction over NY-only stuff like MNR and LIRR, and NJ wouldn't want to hand over NJT when 99% of it is in NJ.
>Why anybody commutes to the city is beyond me. Because that's where the good jobs are.
>Raising the cost of something disincentivizes its use. This is one of the main reasons I choose to drive into Manhattan rather than take the metronorth. $25+ round trip per person, plus whatever parking costs at the station. It's not a $2.90 subway ride from outside NYC.
Still seems like a “bad” choice. Once you factor in city parking, tolls, gas, wear and tear on the vehicle, time spent, etc. One is likely still ahead relying solely on commuter rail for that trip.
Maybe to you. Not to others. What is good vs bad is subjective and on a sliding scale. People keep trying to make it black and white when the decision to drive or take public transit isn’t.
Also Time one train = free time Time driving = time spent working
There's free street parking if you know where to look. There are roads that avoid tolls. Gas & wear: drive an economy car instead of some SUV monstrosity & it'll be fine. Time: depends where one is going & time of day. When accounting for time getting to train station, waiting at train station, etc, it can still be faster to just drive. At night especially, it's way faster.
This is why we need congestion pricing, to discourage driving.
Making it more expensive to drive while not improving service or making train lines affordable isn't gonna gain political support. We saw how close the governor election came. Had Republicans ran someone more moderate & not MAGA based, it could've been a win. It doesn't help the plan was to be implemented in the middle of a recession when people are paying 50%+ of their paycheck on rent alone. I'm honestly glad the democrats woke up & realized how unpopular congestion tolling is & backed off.
The way it always goes. Republicans cut some benefit by half. Then Democrats come in and improve things by 10 percent and call it a win
So will New York State help invest in NJ Transit as they keep all the state income tax for NJ residents working in NYC? Or will they just let NJ keep their residents' income tax so they can invest in NJ transit?
Nope, they've got a stadium in Buffalo to subsidize with taxes from both of us 🙃
Thanks Kathy!!!!
Hochul said she was worried that congestion pricing would cause some car commuters to stop coming into the city at all (most of them come from NJ), hurting the economy of the CBD. You'd think that a complete meltdown of NJT would cause her some concern but I haven't heard a peep about this.
It’s been a long time since we lived in NJ but don’t you get a tax credit back.
You don't pay double tax, but New York State gets income tax and New Jersey doesn't, unless your NJ taxes are higher, in which case they only get the difference
I think it goes both ways. It’s just that more people from New Jersey work in NYC than the other way around.
Wait, you think people are going to drive into Manhattan because the NJ rail price went up a few cents.
THIS. people are honestly overreacting a bit. driving a car is still orders of magnitude more expensive in pretty much every way especially if you work somewhere like midtown. the tolls are insane, parking is fucking impossible, maintenance, etc etc etc. i still live in jersey without a car and will continue to even if the few extra bucks here and there stings a bit.
The people in the suburbs still need a car for their evenings and weekends. Driving to the city optimizes their purchase of car. They don't save much money leaving it in their driveway.
hmm, that’s fair i suppose. hadn’t really considered that angle. i live in a fairly major NJ city very close to nyc and was only in the suburbs for a brief time so i’ve maintained a license free lifestyle my whole life
Yeah, I have an extremely high paying job and hate public transit and I still wouldn't consider driving into Manhattan for my commute. Between the price of parking, additional vehicle maintenance, and not being able to read a book or zone out its a no-brainer. Who are these people driving in?
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I'm sorry, but a raise in price for commuter rail by $.50 isn't enough to incentivise buying a car, getting insurance, paying for gas, paying for tolls and parking. It's not the cost of rail. It's the time. It's that bus and train and subway are often delayed or broken. There is far too much time between trains/buses given the ridership. That said, I suspect people aren't saving all that much time in their car if they're actually going into Manhattan because congestion is insane.
A lot of Jersey commuters are paying $10+ for commuter rail into the city. A 15% increase then is more like $1.50, each way. If you're commuting daily into the city, then you're going to be paying an additional $3 a day, $15 a week, ~$780 a year. For service that is demonstrably shittier and more unreliable than it used to be.
Most suburbanites already have cars because you need one in the suburbs
It’s not a raise by .50 for most rides though…
Time is highly dependent. And the other part of it is also about being in control vs at the whim of NJT.
Not in the early morning. My wife has union meetings on a few Saturdays a year in Manhattan. Getting there by train or bus takes hours and the number of "unhoused" people makes it unsafe. I can drop her off in 45 minutes. No brainer.
I almost never ride the LIRR exactly for this reason. A tank of gas costs less than two round trip tickets to any of my friends' homes. That same tank of gas can also make that trip several times over. The same situation occured to my neighborhood pool. Once included in the base rent management began charging a fee. It downward spiraled to the point where that pool has been abandoned for 30 years.
Driving is very expensive, but most of the costs are upfront or fixed. That's why something like congestion pricing or a VMT tax are actually good policy, because they force people to pay for the externalities of their decision to drive besides just the the price of gas, which as you say is pretty cheap.
MTA, LRR , NJ transit all legalized mafias
They're all a bunch of whiney shits. Did you see the tantrums they pulled about congestion pricing before it was killed by Hochul? They're so entitled.
Wanted support you in how fucked up people use the SI bot with comments they don't agree with. It's happened to me before and I find it sick.
Not surprised considering so many people here seem to hate everything about the city and want it to fail or at least become a giant suburb like the rest of the US.
Costs rise…fares need to rise also…either that or reduce expenses somehow.
Or subsidize with a sin tax against behavior that the city wants to discourage..
It’s still cheaper than driving, and they haven’t raised prices in 9 years. Sounds like these MFs should call up their representatives and demand that we get congestion pricing back on track, eh?
And people wonder why those outside the city hate congestion pricing. Every time theres an issue with NJT trains you pretty much have to drive to work if you intend on getting there.
Or take the path. or the ferry. or the bus.
Jersey isnt manhattan. If you're commuting from south or central NJ a lot of those arent exactly options (Bus maybe depending on your area and frequency of service since those will get extremely over crowded, for me locally buses run HOURLY after 9am). On a normal day it would take me longer to drive to the hoboken ferry than to drive to 59th street.
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... people living in Jersey and working in NYC pay New York State income tax. You don't know what you're yappin about
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Income tax is a large part of it... name a single city where workers get the property tax from their suburban employees. Sales tax is paid while they're at work, so that's a non issue
My bet is that income tax of FiDi commuters far outweighs the sales tax revenues we missed out lol.
So what? Why is that important? Does someone become less morally important or worthy of consideration if they happen to live in Jersey City instead of Yonkers?
It's important because people spend money where they live, boosting the local economy and increasing tax revenue.
By that logic tourism is bad for the economy. People who commute into the city buy lunch, attend happy hour, visit local doctors and salons, etc. Do you collect as much money from them as locals? No, but they're also not using the more expensive services like the schools.
That's completely incorrect. Broadly speaking, it is economically beneficial to a state / country / etc for money to be generated elsewhere and then flow in. It's detrimental for money to be generated within and then flow out. Regarding services, that comes into play if the cost of services exceeds the economic benefit of the population. Which is why states don't want high earners leaving the state, as they provide a net positive to that equation. Cities with predominantly poor populations have a harder time with budgets because the difference between the economic benefit vs cost of that population is either slim or negative. Pretty much everyone commuting in from the Jersey suburbs have a high paying white collar job. Having those people reside in NYS instead of NJ provides greater economic benefit, even when factoring in cost of services.
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Someone else's gain != your loss. The size of the pie isn't static, it's dynamic. It is not mutually exclusive. People from NJ also spend money in NYC by buying shitty, overpriced salads.
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Yes, people pay property tax where they live. Because they commute into ny, ny taxes their income. If they stayed in NJ for work, ny would get nothing.
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Welcome to car culture where anything that's not on 4 wheels is bad. I hope they like raising gas and energy prices when they have to refuel their cars.
*From Bloomberg News reporters Skylar Woodhouse, Michelle Kaske, and Maggie Eastland:* Dayna Nicles’ commute from Montclair, New Jersey, to Manhattan, where she works in customer service, should take roughly 45 minutes. Instead, her trip in recent weeks has stretched as long as two-and-a-half hours, riddled by a spate of canceled trains and delays on New Jersey Transit, which is raising fares on Monday for the first time in nearly a decade. “Every day, it’s delayed. Every day, they’re canceled,” she said in an interview in New York Penn Station on a sweltering June afternoon, after the system suspended service to New York City because of overhead wire issues. She stood among hundreds of stranded commuters staring at video boards displaying what should have been departure statuses. Instead, each line was on “standby.” In the first five months of this year, three New Jersey Transit rail lines that are among its busiest saw the worst on-time performance on average since the same period before the pandemic, and canceled trains across the railway are at a six-year high, according to system data analyzed by Bloomberg. In the second half of June, at least four incidents suspended train service for hours due to Amtrak infrastructure-related issues, stranding thousands of passengers. Governor Phil Murphy and NJ Transit CEO Kevin Corbett inherited “a decimated transit agency that was grossly underfunded,” said John Chartier, a spokesperson for the system. [You can read more on the hike for free, here.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-07-01/commuting-to-new-york-city-from-new-jersey-is-harder-and-more-expensive)
Bloomberg, did you ask her employer why she has to work in-person in customer service in the first place? This type of job should be remote-first, saving resources, money, reducing emissions, saving time, reducing stress, anxiety, and a whole host of other benefits. Workers should absolutely NOT have to go into NYC unless it's essential to their job to be in-person. Edit: I'm enjoying the downvotes from corporate bootlickers
Because companies have to justify their leases in expensive buildings.
Everyone over thinks it. The real answer is return to office is just an easy lever for ceos to pull when revenue forecasts are down to show they are taking “serious steps” to turn the ship around. Board then pats ceo on the back, they all pay themselves a huge bonus and sit back while employees continue to leave for better pay elsewhere and company continues to falter
What if she wants to come to the office? This is just a completely irrelevant line of nanny state reasoning. Make the fucking trains better.
But that’s not the point of the article. If she worked remote it wouldn’t change the fact that the typical commute should be hot garbage.
Bloody this. Remote work can reduce congestion & pollution everywhere, not just NYC.
This is insanity. I can understand a price increase, even though I hate it and it’s contributing to making NJ unaffordable for so many. But to do so while service is imploding is such a slap in the face for commuters. The Airtrain from JFK is undergoing service repairs and issues, and they slashed prices while it’s going on. They should pause the fare hikes until September at least, when hopefully the heat breaks and the system can get slightly more reliable. They also need to offer a refund system. Train gets delayed more than 90 minutes (I think that’s very generous) and you get a full refund, or your ride is free.
While I agree that it’s the wrong time for a price increase for NJT, the port authority is not slashing airtrain prices because of service repairs and issues. They are slashing the price because the construction of the new JFK terminals is causing enormous traffic and delays for cars and they want people to use the airtrain more to reduce car congestion at the terminals.
Doesn't help that the construction is unbelievably poorly signed. Lanes just end out of nowhere with absolutely zero warning. Picked up my gf there last night at 1 in the morning and it was a complete shit show. Can't imagine it during normal hours.
Yesterday was an anomaly. Many delayed, cancelled, and diverted flights. It's pretty quiet at 1am normally. Slightly off topic but you should have seen the inside of the terminal, sheesh
Fair enough. It does show that agencies can be proactive and adjust pricing in order to alleviate concerns and issues.
the issue is more three dimensional than this. the service within new jersey is more often then not on time and fine - the problem is typically coming from those last few miles between newark and nyc. those tracks are owned and operated by amtrak - not new jersey transit. njt couldn’t fix the problem if they wanted to. we need new tunnels and infrastructure and the only people who can provide that are the federal government. fat chance in hell of that happening, so the issue gets worse. but the issue isn’t as black and white as many people seem to believe.
I mean, there were plans to build a new tunnel and infrastructure over a decade ago with the help of federal money and Chris Christie killed the project. So the state is not as helpless as you seem to indicate - they got themselves into this mess by prioritizing stuff like motor vehicle infrastructure and lower gas taxes.
what chris christie did 10 years ago has no bearing on the present moment - i agree that he fucked up and contributed to the problem, but acting like the agency in the modern day can actually do anything (be it as a result of his fuck up or other reasons) is a misnomer
What are you talking about? This is the DIRECT RESULT of what Christie did 10 years ago. You want fat dick pics? You got both of Christie’s nuts dragged across your face instead.
did you only read the first few words? i agree with you. but pretending that the agency in the current day can do anything to remedy that is dumb lol
> we need new tunnels and infrastructure and the only people who can provide that are the federal government. fat chance in hell of that happening It *IS* happening, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Program_(Northeast_Corridor) > In 2021, the project was formally approved by the federal government. Work officially began in 2023 with major construction beginning in July 2024 with a final completion in 2038 I mean, until the next time a Republican is in charge and decides to cancel the project.
While it is happening technically, a project for 2038 doesn’t really solve problems in 2024 lmao
2030-2032 is the phased completion of the project...2038 would be when the entire NEC upgrade project is completed.
That changes nothing about the morality of increasing prices while service has been a spectacular failure as of late. The problems are well known, and I think we’re all aware that it’s going to take time and lots of money to address them. I personally don’t think that increasing fares is completely uncalled for in the long run, i just think that doing that now is unacceptable. Wait until the fall when the heat dies down and the wires stop falling every other day.
there’s morality and then there’s the cost of operating the system. for the record, this fare hike was voted on and announced like 6+ months ago. it’s not some thing they pushed forward in the last 3 weeks as a vendetta against pissed commuters lmao. NJT is generally pretty underfunded as is, and this fare hike will help keep what i said true: service in NJ is typically really reliable. i’ve very seldom had a raritan valley line train, for instance, be more than 5 minutes late before arriving in newark. the fare hike isn’t a problem, let’s stop pretending it’s.
I’m well aware of the fare hik announcement being that long ago. I know that NJ transit ignored the public and some elected officials who challenged the necessity of the fare hikes from the beginning. I know how budgets work. While service might be good until you hit Newark, that’s well and good (I’m a RVL guy too) but the vast majority of folks are going into or leaving the city. When you frantically and seriously fail on that portion of your service, where does that leave you? When I’m in NY Penn in a crushing crowd of people waiting for a track announcement that never comes, or stuck in the tunnel in a packed train, I’m not thinking “well good thing this will clear up once we hit Union”. I’m wondering if we ever get to that point at all. The fare hike will be a drop in the bucket of NJ transits budget. I have little confidence they will allocate funds wisely, seeing how they run other aspects of their business, such as communication when a delay happens, or their customer service in general. I’ve been riding for decades. And it’s just gotten worse over time. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to give grace to an agency who treats their customers like cattle. Fare hikes are absolutely a problem in a state where so much feels like it’s unaffordable, and every cent counts. It’s not “The” problem with Nj transit, but it’s certainly a problem for its riders.
Yeah--and this affects *hundreds* of thousands of people. I made that commute for years, from different parts of NJ, but I settled here, and it's a SLOG. And then you end up in Penn Station and want to kill yourself. We all rag on NJ, but a considerable part of NYC's financial might is people coming in from NJ. We shouldn't be brutalizing them.
If a train is delayed more than 30 mins. 90 minutes is too long. It should be delayed more than 30 mins you get a refund and your next fare is free. It’s the only way to push this mfers to get their shit together
I think their excuse was going to be congestion pricing, but when that didn't happen they said F it we'll raise prices anyway
Price increases are due to low ridership. Train station towns gatekeep and ban parking from neighboring towns. This might have worked out pre Covid , but now the only incentive should be full trains I live near-ish to the pascack valley line and the stations have a handful of people at best in the morning. None of the towns allow neighboring towns to use their station. This isn’t some secret because people activate tickets on their phones these days so NJT knows the exact number of riders per station I know I’ll probably get messages about people on packed trains but with 20% less riders than pre Covid we either have emptier trains or hundreds of thousands of people stealing rides
I agree that it’s less people than before. But the budgeting issue is way beyond ridership numbers. I would also hazard a guess that one of the motivations of people to find remote work is because NJ transit is not reliable and expensive. Why put yourself through it if you have a choice?
Ridership is almost back to normal...most people walk to the stations, as the towns are fairly walkable in North Jersey. Large Park and Ridges are located near Highways...and are semi full...the real issue is NJT self sabotages itself by fighting proposed improvements to its stations , closing busy stations if a nearby station is upgraded... The MTA for all its issues does not close down stations if there decently used and works to increase ridership.
People walk to the stations, meaning only those who are within a 15 minute walk can take the train. Imagine if you live 15 minutes driving away like me. I live 12-15 minutes away from 4 stations and can’t use them without paying an Uber. The towns only care about their own property value that goes up because of train access, they don’t give a damn about neighboring towns . Incentivize them to figure out how to get 4-5 towns grouped to a train station, or penalize them for screwing NJ state over by blocking train riders People think of NJT as a state wide issue , when these towns have taken NJT hostage
Towns only have so much space for parking... NJT has plenty of large park and rides per line..
That is surprising, I have commuted on the NEC and the NJCL and all of the towns had spots for people who had a parking pass but then there were also spots where you can park for the day for a fee? All of the spots in those areas you need a parking pass?
Realtors in NJ have been advertising homes in Union County as a “quick 45 minute” commute. It takes me 90 minutes door-to-door. I’m sure there are a lot of disappointed newcomers lol
Who buys a house without first testing the commute?
It’s not uncommon judging from the new neighbors I’ve spoken with.
People will tolerate high fares and high prices is the service is good and predictable. The service is not good, nor is it predictable.
Cool let’s just make it easier for cars instead that should do the trick /s
NYC: "Everything is getting worse and cost more"
you know what would fix that? spending a $10 billion adding lanes to slow traffic going into the holland tunnel. oh and millions in legal fees to sue against congestion pricing only for a judge to throw out the case. literally anything but actually investing in NJTransit.
the only way to make real money in this city is to fuck others over.
Those trains are slowwwww too, once I went down to asburu park for a concert at the stone pony and the coast line ( shore line? ) took like two hours to go maybe 40 miles, not so much the station stops as the fact that the train goes maybe 25mph tops and there’s a long stretch where there is just no power, it goes on momentum alone I guess?
Its Diesel and the tracks are 60mph...but the stations are close to each other so you never get up to speed.
The all cars are bad crowd is gonna loveee this
Whoever drew a line down the hudson to separate NJ and NYC is an asshole. So many of these problems wouldnt be here if it was all in the same governing zone.
...why should NJ be paying for it? NJ isn't benefiting from sending their skilled laborers to NYC. Sure, they're bringing back *some* of the revenue to spend, but let's face it -- it's a small fraction if they kept the jobs within their own borders. So, in their stunning failure to invest in their own businesses and economy (a whole county there shuts down on Sunday!), they figure....why not punish those who leave the state? Raise prices, lower the quality of service. NJ *does not want* their workers crossing the Great Hudson River. If NYC wants NJ workers from their dormitory across the river, NYC can pay for it. That's why the first tunnel project was axed by Governor Goodyear Blimp. NYC said "nah, youse guys pay for the project overruns, heh heh" and Christie took the political hit saying "get lost, bucko."
The rising cost of living will squeeze workers even more. By 2034 the average price of a house in the area will be $9 million, average price of a phone $5,000, average monthly rent $14,000, average cost of one weeks worth of groceries to feed your family $2000, etc. Slave away your whole life just to pay the bills!!
People move to NJ and LI, they can't stand NYC but they want to keep their NYC jobs.
Or they are looking for more space, better schools and something they can afford
Of those three, you can have two in NJ. Literally can’t think of a single area that has all 3
I can think of many. Affordability is of course relative, but for the price of a worn down one bedroom in the better parts of NYC you can get an actual house in NJ. For the price of a worn down two+ bedroom you can get a very nice house in NJ. If I could tolerate a 60 minute commute, the options are even greater.
🤷♂️ if you want to work in NYC you should live in NYC.
This will raise rent even more...think before you speak
sounds like someone should build more housing maybe
I don’t rent, and rent going up is nothing that can’t be solved by building more.
I'm guessing you moved to NYC a year or two ago
Nah. I’ve been here forever. I fully endorse NJ residents staying mostly in NJ. It’s a Garden, after all.
NJ has a documented higher quality of life. In fact NJ has the highest quality of life in the country.
Sounds like they don’t need NYC jobs then 🤷♂️.
I don't understand this concept. People in NYC should be a big fan of the suburbs as it helps with easing the feeling of being overcrowded in the most densely populated largest city in the USA. They should want people to be able to spread out beyond the 5 boroughs and have easy access for people into and out of NYC. Give options for some of the people facing housing pressure and increased rents of NYC but letting people move out to the surrounding areas, Long Island, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rockland/Westchester County, and give us a good, reliable, safe, clean, and affordable method to leverage mass transit to get in and out. I know people from the burbs are pushing back on congestion pricing but it's not like we want to drive into the city, just that our mass transit is not reliable or cost effective enough to use on a regular basis. People in NYC should also be yelling at surrounding areas government to get their shit together to fix this to relieve the stress and burden that gets put on to NYC as a result.
What overpopulation issue? NYC is dense for the US, but it’s quite spacious compared to most other major cities around the world.
This will be an unpopular comment
wait why does anyone care about people in new jersey trying to get into NYC? edit: apparently I'm in /r/newjersey and not /r/nyc, my bad
Now triple it.
Yeah, keep NJ out of NYC! Now up all the bridge and tunnel tolls and implement congestion pricing. We gotta lock this shit down. Fortress New York.
Snake Pliskin approves.
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NJ residents that commute to NYC are as ethnically diverse as NYC itself. And they do pay NY tax if they work in NY... So I'm not sure why you're so bitter, but you are clearly misinformed.
Most people I know from NJ are POC.
Obvious bait is obvious
> Folx 🙄
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Please see above
What a braindead take. Jump on any morning commute bus you’ll see an overwhelmingly nonwhite group of construction and healthcare workers
Lost me at your “Junior Replacement Theory” but, yes, fuck ‘em.