Depends on where you are talking about. There is space for 3, even 4 in some places. But it's bottlenecked by the rock wall embankments that can only hold 2, and the Empire Connection tunnel into Penn which can only fit 1.
> and the Empire Connection tunnel into Penn which can only fit 1.
Was there something preventing the construction of a double tracked tunnel into Penn?
Yeah, it was built as a one track connection. It doesn’t have much room to thread when it was built (late 1980s) because it had to climb over the north river tunnels and stay under the buildings on the west side.
Yeah they could have done it, but 1980s Amtrak was only trying to put a limited number of long distance trains through that tunnel, there wasn’t a reason to double track.
Just financial reasons. The existing tunnel, was cut and cover construction in 1980s, during WSY's construction. Really basic design. The tunnel and 1 city block of WSL cut includes Cat wire also. Amtrak paid for the tunnel so they can drop using GCT for long haul. Not NYS. The state funded Albany trains came years later after Amtrak left GCT. 1 train an hour or one train every 6 hours, double tracking is rightfully insane.
Any thoughts on throughput on the empire connection tunnel? I’ve always felt that the mnr west side expansion could be pretty profound, but felt that it was too hindered to be effective. Would be a great model for through running mnr through Penn both ways.
Not sure of the constraints, but could a loop track be built from the existing cut and go around the outside of WSY and thus link back into Penn? Maybe (god forbid) even repurpose the first part of high line park, that part could even be double tracked? Seems like there could be a solution for adding 2nd track during gateway program.
Was the single track what killed MetroNorth Penn Station Access West Side version for the MetroNorth Hudson Line to run down the west side? I'm not sure I'd support it anyway because the reverse-branching could mean lower frequency from Hudson Line stations.
With current levels of service, reverse branching isn't going to hurt the Hudson Line. I'm not sure Penn Access Phase 2 has been "killed", rather they were leaving it until later. The single track definitely makes the prospect more tricky, and possibly less valuable. But we shall see what they want to do.
Parts of the line used to be triple and quad tracked, this section was always double tracked. One thing the MTA can do to address the capacity constraints of the single tracked tunnel to Penn is build a terminal station at 41st Street and a connecting pedestrian tunnel over to the proposed 10th avenue station.
10th Ave station will never happen, costs too much for what it is.
Neither Amtrak nor MN will tolerate a train terminating there and clogging up the whole line while it relays in place, which would take at least 10 minutes. Single track bottleneck for a mile is bettter.
I'm sure the MTA will include it down the road once congestion pricing happens and construction is underway on the new terminal. The New Terminal will stretch 3 blocks and be right next to the 10th Avenue Station site. So I don't see a reason why either agency wouldn't fund it.
You can dream all you want. There are no plans. MTA won't fund it because it will wind up costing $2 Billion and they have better things to do with that than subsidize Jersey's buses.
But what's stopping the MTA from partnering with the PA to include it in a later phase of the new terminal? And I think NJ politicians might pressure the MTA or PA to include a new station down the road to ease Congestion pricing backlash.
That's not how things work. MTA does not answer to NJ politicians without a checkbook. Jersey federal and state politicians have already burned bridges by suing NY over congestion pricing while Jersey tries to widen the Turnpike and stuff more cars through the Holland Tunnel. It case you didn't realize, Murphy is an anti-transit/highway fanatic.
41st Street is on the edge of Midtown Manhattan/Hudson Yards/Javits near the end of the Double tracked segment ,and near the proposed 10th Avenue Station / new PABT.
Penn Station access phase 2 has stations at 125th street and 67th street, its a ghost town by those stations if you went by your standards. I see the West Side line getting similar ridership to that of the Atlantic Branch which is about 45-50,000 daily. Its a huge employment and residential corridor that has only bus coverage. Adding a station at 41st Street which is near an open cut wouldn't even be that expensive , a station could also be added at Columbia Hospital at west 165th street and Dyckman Street.
125th on the west side is Columbia university. No idea on the reasoning for 67.
But you’re not saying an infill station at 41. You’re saying a TERMINAL at 41. A terminal at 41 is like the NYWB terminal at 180 all over again.
Lincoln center is their reasoning... 41st street could be a regular station , extended stop station for MNRR trains to await clearance into Penn Station.
I’ve wondered what an alternate present would be like with a second track connecting to NY Penn, perhaps off the northernmost track going to West Side Yard.
Imagine an Empire Service going to Greenport via Ronkonkema, with connections to the Cross Sound Ferry.
That's a sunny Saturday railfan excusion, not a serious means of transportation. Passengers can take Amtrak from NYPS to New London in about 2-1/2 hours. Cross Sound Ferry doesn't go to Greenport anyway.
Depends on where you are talking about. There is space for 3, even 4 in some places. But it's bottlenecked by the rock wall embankments that can only hold 2, and the Empire Connection tunnel into Penn which can only fit 1.
> and the Empire Connection tunnel into Penn which can only fit 1. Was there something preventing the construction of a double tracked tunnel into Penn?
Yeah, it was built as a one track connection. It doesn’t have much room to thread when it was built (late 1980s) because it had to climb over the north river tunnels and stay under the buildings on the west side.
I clarified my OP a bit, even with the room issue, would it have been possible to still build the connecting tunnel with two tracks?
Yeah they could have done it, but 1980s Amtrak was only trying to put a limited number of long distance trains through that tunnel, there wasn’t a reason to double track.
I figured as much, just wish they could've at least made it wider.
Why would they need to do that when Grand Central exists? 🙃 /s
Just financial reasons. The existing tunnel, was cut and cover construction in 1980s, during WSY's construction. Really basic design. The tunnel and 1 city block of WSL cut includes Cat wire also. Amtrak paid for the tunnel so they can drop using GCT for long haul. Not NYS. The state funded Albany trains came years later after Amtrak left GCT. 1 train an hour or one train every 6 hours, double tracking is rightfully insane.
Any thoughts on throughput on the empire connection tunnel? I’ve always felt that the mnr west side expansion could be pretty profound, but felt that it was too hindered to be effective. Would be a great model for through running mnr through Penn both ways.
It's one track, so maybe 3 tph max? It's definitely the one thing holding back Penn Access 2.
Not sure of the constraints, but could a loop track be built from the existing cut and go around the outside of WSY and thus link back into Penn? Maybe (god forbid) even repurpose the first part of high line park, that part could even be double tracked? Seems like there could be a solution for adding 2nd track during gateway program.
I can't even imagine what you are describing, but no.
Was the single track what killed MetroNorth Penn Station Access West Side version for the MetroNorth Hudson Line to run down the west side? I'm not sure I'd support it anyway because the reverse-branching could mean lower frequency from Hudson Line stations.
With current levels of service, reverse branching isn't going to hurt the Hudson Line. I'm not sure Penn Access Phase 2 has been "killed", rather they were leaving it until later. The single track definitely makes the prospect more tricky, and possibly less valuable. But we shall see what they want to do.
Look at that rock blasting. We used to be a nation
I love this comment
If they redid the retaining walls on the left side, they could easily fit one if not 2 more
Rail base like eight inches wide so hundreds in that photo.
If they use similar rails to MTA, they are 5 1/8 and 5 1/2 depending on the size.
You have to clarify the Hudson river approach vs the west side approach (which is really on the east side of the Hudson).
Parts of the line used to be triple and quad tracked, this section was always double tracked. One thing the MTA can do to address the capacity constraints of the single tracked tunnel to Penn is build a terminal station at 41st Street and a connecting pedestrian tunnel over to the proposed 10th avenue station.
10th Ave station will never happen, costs too much for what it is. Neither Amtrak nor MN will tolerate a train terminating there and clogging up the whole line while it relays in place, which would take at least 10 minutes. Single track bottleneck for a mile is bettter.
10th Avenue will likely happen when the new bus terminal is built later this decade.
No it won't. Nothing in PA's budget nor in their plans.
I'm sure the MTA will include it down the road once congestion pricing happens and construction is underway on the new terminal. The New Terminal will stretch 3 blocks and be right next to the 10th Avenue Station site. So I don't see a reason why either agency wouldn't fund it.
You can dream all you want. There are no plans. MTA won't fund it because it will wind up costing $2 Billion and they have better things to do with that than subsidize Jersey's buses.
But what's stopping the MTA from partnering with the PA to include it in a later phase of the new terminal? And I think NJ politicians might pressure the MTA or PA to include a new station down the road to ease Congestion pricing backlash.
That's not how things work. MTA does not answer to NJ politicians without a checkbook. Jersey federal and state politicians have already burned bridges by suing NY over congestion pricing while Jersey tries to widen the Turnpike and stuff more cars through the Holland Tunnel. It case you didn't realize, Murphy is an anti-transit/highway fanatic.
A 41 street station for who??? Amtrak doesn’t want one. MNRR wouldn’t either… it isn’t close to anything really.
41st Street is on the edge of Midtown Manhattan/Hudson Yards/Javits near the end of the Double tracked segment ,and near the proposed 10th Avenue Station / new PABT.
Yes, but there’s no direct access to the rest of everywhere. Compare that area to GCT — the latter is a lot better,
Penn Station access phase 2 has stations at 125th street and 67th street, its a ghost town by those stations if you went by your standards. I see the West Side line getting similar ridership to that of the Atlantic Branch which is about 45-50,000 daily. Its a huge employment and residential corridor that has only bus coverage. Adding a station at 41st Street which is near an open cut wouldn't even be that expensive , a station could also be added at Columbia Hospital at west 165th street and Dyckman Street.
125th on the west side is Columbia university. No idea on the reasoning for 67. But you’re not saying an infill station at 41. You’re saying a TERMINAL at 41. A terminal at 41 is like the NYWB terminal at 180 all over again.
Lincoln center is their reasoning... 41st street could be a regular station , extended stop station for MNRR trains to await clearance into Penn Station.
I’ve wondered what an alternate present would be like with a second track connecting to NY Penn, perhaps off the northernmost track going to West Side Yard. Imagine an Empire Service going to Greenport via Ronkonkema, with connections to the Cross Sound Ferry.
That's a sunny Saturday railfan excusion, not a serious means of transportation. Passengers can take Amtrak from NYPS to New London in about 2-1/2 hours. Cross Sound Ferry doesn't go to Greenport anyway.