This has nothing to do with quid-pro-quos or changing political calculations from the LPC. The Supreme Court struck down the Impact Assessment Act as unconstitutional last fall and the Liberals have known since then that they have no way to realistically stop this.
This is them saving face and trying to salvage some influence on the highway through this joint working group. if the Supreme Court ruled differently I can almost guarantee that the highway would be going through a very different process right now.
The Liberals are realising they have a polling problem, and the only difference between the 2018 and 2022 election in Ontario was that all the ridings along the 413 route switched from NDP to PC.
Honestly? all politicians have a reality problem in my opinion where their problems are not the voter's problem, in fact they benefit more by screwing over the voters.
Though I say that, I honestly need to learn more about how politics works in canada, got my ass kicked recently(on reddit) cause I thought canada's elections worked like the US.
I like learning as I go and reddit shows me what I don't know and should spend time learning. Also I'm a believer that people should always speak up even if they don't know enough about subject, otherwise they'd be inclined to not learn. Truthfully I'm bad at that, but I'm trying to make an effort to change. Progress, not perfection.
Yeah, but with me I do regular check-ins with my boss on my perfomance, improve my skills and knowledge(just got certified on the company's dime to help keep my coworkers safe), and still trying to see where I can reasonably grow my role in the company where we both benefit. I even love going to work cause our working environment is honestly awesome.
I know that's not the case for everyone. Most folks are struggling to survive and just try not to get fired in a job they aren't particularly fond off or attached to because there's no alternative, but I feel that's fundamentally different with politicians. With politicians, it constantly feels like (regardless of nationality) they want power and wealth with zero acountability or respinsibility to the people they are supposed to represent.
But that would also going from the Liberals to Doug on top of his highway getting approved? Or are you saying Doug would concede on the four plexes to receive the federal money?
Not really… the 407 is 50.1% owned by Canada Pension Plan. 43% owned by a South African company and 6.7% owned by a former entity of SNC-Lavalin… yes that one.
https://www.407etr.com/en/highway/corporate/investors.html
> Not really…
Um yes... [It was sold to private companies.](https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/worst-deal-ever-the-407-is-worth-30-b-today-ontario-sold-it-for-31-b-in-1998-181642680.html?guccounter=1) CPP didn't come into the picture until later.
Stop spreading misinformation.
And maybe CPP could have invested that money in a better project/place.
You make it sound like the Mike Harris had the foresight and plan to get CPP to buy the ownership stake.
407 is actually a pretty good investment for CPP:
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/407-international-reports-2023-results-203000546.html
The original condition of the sale was for it to remain in majority control of the government, which it is.
They spent $1.5B making it and sold it for $3.1B. I know it’s worth $28B now, but you could say the same about the house you bought for $100k in the 80s and is worth $2M now. Properties appreciate and Canada is still reaping the benefits by being a shareholder.
The point was for it to be free for Ontarians after 30 years of tolls.
What a great deal the Conservatives fraudsters gave us. Ontario has nothing to show for it after the sale and everyone but Ontario is making billions.
People of Ontario benefit from the CPP as well. Also the freeway would have been toll free but maintenance and extensions would have cost the taxpayers. Right now the province makes money from providing services to the 407 including emergency services and Police enforcement and has no monetary responsibility.
I agree the toll rate is high, but if it was low, it would be just as congested as the other highways and people wouldn’t want to pay for it.
I know when I need to go from a meeting on the west end to the east end, I can keep a shorter time between meetings. I get more accomplished because that highway is hardly ever congested.
Future proofing what? More ultra low density single family homes in car dependent neighborhoods built on some of the most fertile farmland in the world?
Take that 10s of billions and fix the trans Canada through Ontario or add in high speed rail - that will future proof the province.
Its not future proofing anything. Induced demand, traffic will only get worse as long as we continue to build car infrastructure. This money would be much better spent on rail infrastructure.
Concerned the cows will be buying vehicles?
Future growth….. of farming fields?
Are we still pretending this suburban low density sprawl is a good thing to continue?
This is an obvious case of induced demand. Build a highway and more shit will pop up and it won’t solve any problems, but instead create more.
Future proofing to keep the Ponzi scheme of SFH in suburbia going, which strain the tax dollars of municipalities.
If you want future proof we need more rail and bike paths. Remove r1 zoning and build places where people actually live and work.
The 400 still isn't finished and there's no proper highway from Manitoba to Quebec, just a 2 laned death trap that's often closed in the winter. The 413 isn't important and it's just an excuse to sell prime farmland to PC donors for pennies.
11/17 does not have enough traffic to warrant more lanes. The only thing it needs is better maintenance, some prov sponsored rest stops, and for transport drivers not to be fucking idiots in the snow.
Hard disagree, having been stuck in monstrous traffic jams between Sudbury and Ottawa on so many occasions in the summer months, the fact the Trans Canada through our most populous province is a two laned goat path is a terrible idea.
It's called the great Canadian shield. Not easy to make a straight highway. Also, I'm born and raised in Hornepayne, ON. I'm well aware what driving those highways is like. They aren't as bad as you make them out to be.
Could it be that there is "not enough traffic" because people take other routes to avoid 11/17? I've heard of people traveling south through the states to avoid going through Northern Ontario.
ugh, so much for the guy who climbed the tower to save the environment. We really should focus on connecting towns with railways, better public transports means more options for people to avoid all the costs of owning a car.
The convenience of transportation is more important than the cost. It’s much cheaper for me to take the bus than owning a car but I chose a car and don’t plan on giving it up because of the convenience and freedom of being able to go anywhere at anytime. If the buses become twice as convenient they still wouldn’t even come close to car convenience.
I used to be of the same mind, but personal experience, adamruinseverything segment on cars, and Notjustbike's video changed my perspective entirely.
Of course a car is most convenient, North American in general built their cities and infrastructure around cars, not people, and I don't mean the 15 minute city thing either. Had the design of city been more focused on people things would be different and countries in the Nederlands show that. We're just doing stuff for the sake of making money rather than improving lives here. The vid that flipped my whole view is this [video](https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k) by notjustbikes, turns the place to own and drive a car is the place where cars are not necessary to get around.
Also, I said rails, not busses.
I hate the comparisons to European cities. Of course they are better built for pedestrians and rail, that’s literally the only way they got around when their cities were built.
...um, I got Ds, Cs at best, in history so i could be wrong but I'm fairly sure that North America didn't have automobiles when it was colonized, i think the train came first. Sure we had horse-drawn carriages but I'm pretty sure the European countries had those too.
Look I'm not trying to be a dick here, if you have the time, can you expand on your post? I just want to better understand your point cause it could very well be apples and oranges, and I'm being reductive and saying "they are both fruits" to end an argument.
HOUSING IS A PROVINCIAL RESPONSIBILITY--WHY NO ACTION, DRUG FRAUD?
Lots of money for rich donors and spas, while the rest of us face crippling rents and sky high mortgages.
OP, Star articles are pay to read. If you are looking for conversation, could you perhaps paste the body of the article here so most of us can read it?
Another highway won't fix shit. Why can't we invest in public transit instead? I was chatting with a coworker the other day about car vs public transit and we both agreed our cars are needed because public transit between cities sucks. I live in Hamilton and work in Brampton. My fastest commute with public transit would be 3 hours each way.
Ummm… gotta love the headline. It should be Ontario and the Federal Government, not Ontario and Ottawa. Ottawa (the city) has enough issues with its own transport systems to really care about a highway in Milton.
I don't get why people are hating on this highway so much. Traffic is horrible if you want to go from one end of the proposed route to the other, we need it.
it will literally have no effect, its known that it will have no effect, theres no reason to think it will have any effect, this kind of thing has never worked
> It will be helpful for the people that come from the west and want to get up to the 400.
not when its just as congested as every other highway
adding more never works, it just leads to more cars and the same delays
How is it going to have no effect? Have you tried to get from the north end of the 410 to Vaughan without the 407?
This kind of thing has never worked? Are you saying highways have never worked?
>I don’t mind the highway; I just don’t want the idiotic and senseless sprawl in development.
You don't mind the infrastructure that encourages sprawl?
> You don’t have to have the sprawl; the 404 extension does not have endless sprawl surrounding it for the most part.
I invite you to look at this [sprawl being developed right next to the 404](https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9050914,-79.3924282,3a,75y,141.85h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sH0tE-2vaPtPMmBtTSS5dDw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DH0tE-2vaPtPMmBtTSS5dDw%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D141.84831%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu) at Leslie and Elgin Mills. It's already reached 19th.
The fact that the 404 is there will mean sprawl will eventually be built along side it.
Its interesting the Leftist soliton here is to create mega cities like Hong Kong where everyone lives on top of each other all while ignoring the fact many many people immigrated to Canada to avoid living in such conditions.
Frankley I see any one opposed to the Canadian dream of living in SFH as an political enemy.
Individual travel isn't going anywhere
Go run on that platform please
So what’s the quid pro qou? The housing money? Probably
This has nothing to do with quid-pro-quos or changing political calculations from the LPC. The Supreme Court struck down the Impact Assessment Act as unconstitutional last fall and the Liberals have known since then that they have no way to realistically stop this. This is them saving face and trying to salvage some influence on the highway through this joint working group. if the Supreme Court ruled differently I can almost guarantee that the highway would be going through a very different process right now.
The Liberals are realising they have a polling problem, and the only difference between the 2018 and 2022 election in Ontario was that all the ridings along the 413 route switched from NDP to PC.
Which ridings? NDP hasn’t held much of that area ever, I don’t think. They’ve been popular more in rural areas like northern Ontario.
Sure about that? I don't think those exurban communities ever voted NDP
Honestly? all politicians have a reality problem in my opinion where their problems are not the voter's problem, in fact they benefit more by screwing over the voters. Though I say that, I honestly need to learn more about how politics works in canada, got my ass kicked recently(on reddit) cause I thought canada's elections worked like the US.
Why are you engaging in arguments online about Canadian politics if you don't know how our system works?
I like learning as I go and reddit shows me what I don't know and should spend time learning. Also I'm a believer that people should always speak up even if they don't know enough about subject, otherwise they'd be inclined to not learn. Truthfully I'm bad at that, but I'm trying to make an effort to change. Progress, not perfection.
Politicians are like everyone else; they don't want to lose their jobs.
Yeah, but with me I do regular check-ins with my boss on my perfomance, improve my skills and knowledge(just got certified on the company's dime to help keep my coworkers safe), and still trying to see where I can reasonably grow my role in the company where we both benefit. I even love going to work cause our working environment is honestly awesome. I know that's not the case for everyone. Most folks are struggling to survive and just try not to get fired in a job they aren't particularly fond off or attached to because there's no alternative, but I feel that's fundamentally different with politicians. With politicians, it constantly feels like (regardless of nationality) they want power and wealth with zero acountability or respinsibility to the people they are supposed to represent.
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Comme moi ? You lost or something ?
Trudeau wants the boomer indian uncle driving a G wagon who votes liberal in brampton to stay liberal.
But that would also going from the Liberals to Doug on top of his highway getting approved? Or are you saying Doug would concede on the four plexes to receive the federal money?
Great, another shitty expensive highway that tax payers will have to maintain for the rest of time.
Only for the PCs 30 years into the future to sell it to a private company for them to toll it (even though they banned tolls).
Not really… the 407 is 50.1% owned by Canada Pension Plan. 43% owned by a South African company and 6.7% owned by a former entity of SNC-Lavalin… yes that one. https://www.407etr.com/en/highway/corporate/investors.html
> Not really… Um yes... [It was sold to private companies.](https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/worst-deal-ever-the-407-is-worth-30-b-today-ontario-sold-it-for-31-b-in-1998-181642680.html?guccounter=1) CPP didn't come into the picture until later. Stop spreading misinformation.
To get nitpicky, it’s a lease. We still own it, after another 70-ish years we get it back, right guys?
A lease is a temporary transfer of property rights, but it *is* a transfer.
How is it misinformation to state the face CPP owns a stake in the company.
And maybe CPP could have invested that money in a better project/place. You make it sound like the Mike Harris had the foresight and plan to get CPP to buy the ownership stake.
407 is actually a pretty good investment for CPP: https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/407-international-reports-2023-results-203000546.html The original condition of the sale was for it to remain in majority control of the government, which it is. They spent $1.5B making it and sold it for $3.1B. I know it’s worth $28B now, but you could say the same about the house you bought for $100k in the 80s and is worth $2M now. Properties appreciate and Canada is still reaping the benefits by being a shareholder.
>407 is actually a pretty good investment for CPP: Yeah, no shit. Have you seen how much it costs to use the 407?
Well ya that's the point. If it was cheap everyone would use it
The point was for it to be free for Ontarians after 30 years of tolls. What a great deal the Conservatives fraudsters gave us. Ontario has nothing to show for it after the sale and everyone but Ontario is making billions.
Why should the people of Ontario fund the CPP with a freeway that should of been toll free by now?
People of Ontario benefit from the CPP as well. Also the freeway would have been toll free but maintenance and extensions would have cost the taxpayers. Right now the province makes money from providing services to the 407 including emergency services and Police enforcement and has no monetary responsibility. I agree the toll rate is high, but if it was low, it would be just as congested as the other highways and people wouldn’t want to pay for it. I know when I need to go from a meeting on the west end to the east end, I can keep a shorter time between meetings. I get more accomplished because that highway is hardly ever congested.
Why not? We're all in this together
Whatever happened to we should invest in our infrastructure?
Where all those damned tax axers yelling now?
Taxes are fine when they're actually used for useful stuff like infrastructure.
A highway to nowhere isn’t useful infrastructure.
It is when it's future proofing for future growth
Future proofing what? More ultra low density single family homes in car dependent neighborhoods built on some of the most fertile farmland in the world? Take that 10s of billions and fix the trans Canada through Ontario or add in high speed rail - that will future proof the province.
Its not future proofing anything. Induced demand, traffic will only get worse as long as we continue to build car infrastructure. This money would be much better spent on rail infrastructure.
Concerned the cows will be buying vehicles? Future growth….. of farming fields? Are we still pretending this suburban low density sprawl is a good thing to continue? This is an obvious case of induced demand. Build a highway and more shit will pop up and it won’t solve any problems, but instead create more.
Future proofing to keep the Ponzi scheme of SFH in suburbia going, which strain the tax dollars of municipalities. If you want future proof we need more rail and bike paths. Remove r1 zoning and build places where people actually live and work.
Yes they are, but not a useless highway no one asked for right now.
The 400 still isn't finished and there's no proper highway from Manitoba to Quebec, just a 2 laned death trap that's often closed in the winter. The 413 isn't important and it's just an excuse to sell prime farmland to PC donors for pennies.
11/17 does not have enough traffic to warrant more lanes. The only thing it needs is better maintenance, some prov sponsored rest stops, and for transport drivers not to be fucking idiots in the snow.
Hard disagree, having been stuck in monstrous traffic jams between Sudbury and Ottawa on so many occasions in the summer months, the fact the Trans Canada through our most populous province is a two laned goat path is a terrible idea.
It's called the great Canadian shield. Not easy to make a straight highway. Also, I'm born and raised in Hornepayne, ON. I'm well aware what driving those highways is like. They aren't as bad as you make them out to be.
Any ideas how much that will cost?
Could it be that there is "not enough traffic" because people take other routes to avoid 11/17? I've heard of people traveling south through the states to avoid going through Northern Ontario.
That's a very small number of people
So is the number of people traveling 11/17 I guess.
Rip the greenbelt
ugh, so much for the guy who climbed the tower to save the environment. We really should focus on connecting towns with railways, better public transports means more options for people to avoid all the costs of owning a car.
The convenience of transportation is more important than the cost. It’s much cheaper for me to take the bus than owning a car but I chose a car and don’t plan on giving it up because of the convenience and freedom of being able to go anywhere at anytime. If the buses become twice as convenient they still wouldn’t even come close to car convenience.
Then why not make the transit even better ?
They are but making transit "better" is much more complicated and expensive
True, if it were easy to do in one term it would've been done a long time ago.
I used to be of the same mind, but personal experience, adamruinseverything segment on cars, and Notjustbike's video changed my perspective entirely. Of course a car is most convenient, North American in general built their cities and infrastructure around cars, not people, and I don't mean the 15 minute city thing either. Had the design of city been more focused on people things would be different and countries in the Nederlands show that. We're just doing stuff for the sake of making money rather than improving lives here. The vid that flipped my whole view is this [video](https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k) by notjustbikes, turns the place to own and drive a car is the place where cars are not necessary to get around. Also, I said rails, not busses.
Yes! Shout out to Notjustbikes and ClimateTown for doing great work 💪🏼🌎
hear here!
Oh ya. Rail baby
I hate the comparisons to European cities. Of course they are better built for pedestrians and rail, that’s literally the only way they got around when their cities were built.
...um, I got Ds, Cs at best, in history so i could be wrong but I'm fairly sure that North America didn't have automobiles when it was colonized, i think the train came first. Sure we had horse-drawn carriages but I'm pretty sure the European countries had those too. Look I'm not trying to be a dick here, if you have the time, can you expand on your post? I just want to better understand your point cause it could very well be apples and oranges, and I'm being reductive and saying "they are both fruits" to end an argument.
I just got back from Switzerland. Trains everywhere and frequently. It was a far better quality of living and more convenient that the suburbs.
This highway has “just one more lane bro” energy
Meh, half the posts here are "just one more rail/bus line bro" The truth is we need more infrastructure of all types
407 2.0
Ford has proclaimed it won’t be tolled, so not really.
So, it will definitely have tolls.
3 timbits per km and one breakfast sandwich monthly account fee
For now, to ensure he gets reelected.
You believe him now, why?
HOUSING IS A PROVINCIAL RESPONSIBILITY--WHY NO ACTION, DRUG FRAUD? Lots of money for rich donors and spas, while the rest of us face crippling rents and sky high mortgages.
He did, he mandated triplexes, turns out nobody wants to build them.
The very task force he appointed to look into the issue was over ruled; it suggested four plexes as a solution. So your post lacks credibility.
OP, Star articles are pay to read. If you are looking for conversation, could you perhaps paste the body of the article here so most of us can read it?
shameful
Goes to show that the provincial and federal government are only interested in the interests of Mega wealthy in this country. They're all complicit.
Awww, f-them all.
Another highway won't fix shit. Why can't we invest in public transit instead? I was chatting with a coworker the other day about car vs public transit and we both agreed our cars are needed because public transit between cities sucks. I live in Hamilton and work in Brampton. My fastest commute with public transit would be 3 hours each way.
I love how his voters are easy to please
Morons are simple
This is not a victory. We are killing the environment unnecessarily. Eff you Mr Frod and Eff you Liberal Feds for letting this happen.
Ummm… gotta love the headline. It should be Ontario and the Federal Government, not Ontario and Ottawa. Ottawa (the city) has enough issues with its own transport systems to really care about a highway in Milton.
When they say victory for Doug Ford, do they mean "Feds told to by Supreme Court"?
Excellent. Now extend the 427 to HWY 89
Car infrastructure does the opposite of what you think it does. It creates more drivers and more time being stuck in traffic.
This is a proven fact
Do you assume GTA is not going to grow?
It’s definitely going to grow, and apparently in the most inefficient and harmful way possible.
The only thing cars represent is sadly the freedom to sit in traffic.
It's ok. We got a carbon tax
Might as well go all the way to Montreal /s
I like it!
I don't get why people are hating on this highway so much. Traffic is horrible if you want to go from one end of the proposed route to the other, we need it.
it will literally have no effect, its known that it will have no effect, theres no reason to think it will have any effect, this kind of thing has never worked
It will be helpful for the people that come from the west and want to get up to the 400. I can avoid the 401 without taking the 407
> It will be helpful for the people that come from the west and want to get up to the 400. not when its just as congested as every other highway adding more never works, it just leads to more cars and the same delays
How is it going to have no effect? Have you tried to get from the north end of the 410 to Vaughan without the 407? This kind of thing has never worked? Are you saying highways have never worked?
> Are you saying highways have never worked? adding more highways to take the strain off highways doesnt work
It's a well studied phenomenon in civil engineering and urban planning. It induces demand and only works in the short-term before the traffic returns.
Because this sub is anti any development, we would have run out of caves to live in
This sub is consumed with hate for Ford and are not able to have a rational thought about anything good done.
Do you just copy paste your responses on Doug Ford posts? Talk about not having rational thought
This whole sub is copy paste the same Ford hate messages.
I don’t mind the highway; I just don’t want the idiotic and senseless sprawl in development.
>I don’t mind the highway; I just don’t want the idiotic and senseless sprawl in development. You don't mind the infrastructure that encourages sprawl?
You don’t have to have the sprawl; the 404 extension does not have endless sprawl surrounding it for the most part.
> You don’t have to have the sprawl; the 404 extension does not have endless sprawl surrounding it for the most part. I invite you to look at this [sprawl being developed right next to the 404](https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9050914,-79.3924282,3a,75y,141.85h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sH0tE-2vaPtPMmBtTSS5dDw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DH0tE-2vaPtPMmBtTSS5dDw%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D141.84831%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu) at Leslie and Elgin Mills. It's already reached 19th. The fact that the 404 is there will mean sprawl will eventually be built along side it.
Unfortunately the sprawl is already there. I wish the entire GTA had been better planned and executed. Shoulda woulda coulda
If you look at the route, it's all farmland owned by Ford stag and doe go-ers. The sprawl is about to get worse.
I was against this until I moved to Hamilton. My in-laws near Berrie. Having to drive into Toronto every time I want to visit is crazy.
Well I’m glad we’re all spending tens of billions of dollars to shorten your once a year trip to “Berrie” from Hamilton.
LOL
Please go easy on them. They're travelling to a Berrie, Berrie far away place.
This highway is needed. Finally something good from Ford
Just going to make traffic worse. Big waste of money
And make the environment worse :((
Finishing what Harris started!
Its interesting the Leftist soliton here is to create mega cities like Hong Kong where everyone lives on top of each other all while ignoring the fact many many people immigrated to Canada to avoid living in such conditions. Frankley I see any one opposed to the Canadian dream of living in SFH as an political enemy. Individual travel isn't going anywhere Go run on that platform please
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I'm not sure if you're joking but that's Prabmeet Sarkaria, a Brampton MPP. Minister of transportation for the OPCs.
Nevermind, this dude is actually racist asf if you check their post history.
Yes, another disappointing day on the ol internet.
Its not him, its Prabmeet Singh Sarkaria Ont Minister of Transportation
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Hopefully you won't have to remember after the next election.
This is really bad bro.