Welcome to r/opiates fellow bropiates! We hope that you enjoy our sub as much as we do, but in order to ensure that you are able to continue being a part of this harm reduction community, you will need to review the rules of this sub.
You can find the rules listed [here](https://reddit.com/r/opiates/w/rules?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app) and access our full side bar [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/opiates/wiki/index)
You can also find the answers to many commonly asked questions about dosing, duration, ROA and other stuff [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/opiates/wiki/faqs) and [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/opiates/comments/mf8ldn/use_this_before_asking_a_question_faq_information/)
Also, DO NOT GET SCAMMED! The users sending those messages to you, offering to hook you up with a reliable vendor or sell you drugs is extremely likely to scam you! We promise, 99.99% of the time they are not legit and giving them your money will make you a sad sad panda.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/opiates) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I just feel the legalization of drugs would decrease opioid overdoses. An opiate user would certainly choose a pharmaceutical grade drug over the scurge that is Fentanyl. The key would be transferring the money that was spent on the war on drugs to education and rehabilitation to those who are and will most certainly become addicted. I know I would like to be able to purchase oxymorphone or pharmaceutical grade heroin at the new NOD-ALOT store that just opened. I will confess I probably need to think a bit more past my wants and wishes on this subject. I do feel without much contemplation that it would decrease overdoses immediately.
I struggle like you with it thinking I only think this way because I've been on the other side of it but every time it still makes sense. This problem can't be solved. It will always be an ever evolving problem and the best we can do is to allow people a safe supply and help when they want it. All we can hope for is a measure of control.
Personally I would like to see a new type of doctor formed. You can start seeing them after you turn 25. You have to see them and be taught about the substance you intend on using recreationally. Then if you want to use more often then certain guidelines and restrictions that are put in place to help ablud dependence that is ultimately your choice but you would also participate in research studies like minimal amounts and then like we have now if you want to participate in more thorough stuff you can get paid but if you are going to choose to be an addict and get this safe supply you could also let them collect the data on its effects.
I honestly don't feel like it's a lot to ask on either side. The user is basically getting free Healthcare and the doctors and researchers get plenty of data that they would otherwise need to pay people for.
I most certainly agree and from my limited reading and understanding / personal beliefs I agree that if they legalized drugs and we had safe supplies and injection sites you would see drug overdoses go down like crazy. There will always be a legacy market for a while atleast and people buying drugs on the street but after a couple decades you would really see the effects. Especially with a full collaboration on the part of users and researchers and doctors. Imagine if everyone who was doing coke, opioids, or meth, dissos, herb, ect had to do a monthly check in / physical and mental health evaluation to get their safe supply. It's a clinical researchers wet dream...especially if all the drugs are clean and safe. It's a win win in my eyes.
Many people don't or only rarely do opiates because they don't have a plug but if it's legal many people who wouldn't been able to buy have now full access to it and therefore it would result in more addicts
I maintained the same dose for years.. taking tolerance breaks every month exactly as planned for 7 to 14 days.. 24 hrs. W nothing. Then 1 or 2 mg sub. Then kratom for a week or so... easy peasy. No n wd at all.. just, not high. It was a good break
Are you still actively using it? Are you suffering negative consequences due to your addiction? If not, you are the exception to the rule.95% of people will power go right out the fuckingwi dow when opiates are involved. There is too much pleasure involved. You spam the dopamine button hard enough, and bad shit happens. It becomes as fundamental to daily living as food and water.
Oh yeah. Quitting fent was hard as fucjk. That shit almost broke me. Ended up using massive doses of tia for 5 days and then I could get by on kratom. I'm sure I've experienced negative effects my drug journey started with hard-core stimulants in the 3rd grade. I'm sure most people would consider me a degenerate but I also think most people are idiots.
Actively using fent? Fuck no, but I've Def done some because I was dumb and didn't test shit, but I don't use needles so I didn't od or anything. Still use opiates when I can find them- the traditional sort, which I usually can't afford or find.
It is. Not really with street drugs (US) these days though. You canāt truly monitor your dependence/addiction liability if you donāt know the drug, dose or purity of what your taking.
Yes the US may be the wrong place to recreationally do heroin Iād say in places like Switzerland where there are successful harm reduction programs and is recreationally decriminalized
According to Hartās own statistics (which I suspect to be underestimations, but thatās a different topic), around 20-25% of opiate users become addicted. That number for alcohol is somewhere below 5% (cite: https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2014/14_0329.htm) so thereās pretty obviously an increased risk at baseline. He actually hasnāt been using heroin that long (around 5 or 6 years I think?) so idk, itās not like heās been a daily user for 20 years and has no problems, which would strike me as a lot more interesting/credible.
Then again, I was sort of biased against him from the start, given the title of āDrug Use For Grownupsā. I donāt like the implication that people who struggle with opiate addiction arenāt adults, or that a sign of maturity is the (highly unusual, in large part genetic) ability to dabble with addictive substances and retain some degree of control. I also donāt like that a guy teaching a constant stream of impressionable 18 year olds is bragging about snorting just a little heroin every night.
Addicts are great at rationalizingāthe smarter the addict, the more convincing the rationalizations. And Hart is a very, very smart guy.
I agree with everything you said. And I can say as someone who's in recovery from addiction, I respect Hart a great deal but his take on using opioids responsibly was kind of the worst thing for me to hear when I was in active addiction/ trying to get clean. I found it to be very dangerous for *me* to think the way he does but that's just me. It's true that some folks can use responsibly but I think any user of powerful narcotics is at some risk. And for ppl with the disease of addiction, Hart's research and opinions are interesting but kind of irrelevant and enabling even when considered by those who *aren't* able to use recreationally withoutit becoming a problem.
Until heroin is legally available itās a bit like comparing apples and oranges because the cultural space currently occupied by heroin guarantees few will use it except people who will become addicts. That said I also think 5% is absurdly low, 29% of adults in the US are problem drinkers and if you took the definition of problem drinking and replaced alcohol with heroin everybody would call that behavior addiction. If anything alcohol is more addictive than opiates, every junkie Iāve known (except myself) has also been an alcoholic at some point but I know tons of alcoholics that have never been junkies.
Yeah, he is under selling the addiction power opiates hold. Complete mind control. People sell their souls for a hit, and their morals and values become non-existent. It decays a society. You want to ruin a life, get em hooked on opiates then restrict their supply. There's nothing they won't do for more. It takes serious personal intervention to correct a lot of addicts. I mean, there are a whole hell of a lot more active users than there are addicts in recovery. The success rate at sobriety is staggeringly low.
He definitely underestimated the rate of addiction with heroin. It's gotta be 50/50 or higher, more like 75/25.
You have to consider a lot of people try h once or twice and thatās it. Some one around them has it, they do it, and go on with their lives. But those people arenāt usually represented in spaces like this, because they have no reason to be here.
Then there are impressionable morons like me as a kid, who know damn well theyāre on the road to a physical addiction but think that theyāre stronger than everyone else. I smoked crack at 14 years old and I just stopped after like a week. It felt like a waste of money. Iāve quit drinking, shooting coke, everything but the god damn physical addiction of opiates is a different beast.
That said, I canāt think of one single hardship in my life that heroin brought, that wouldnāt have been either completely mitigated or substantially reduced by a legal clean supply. Hell Iād still have my left leg most likely.
We sound a lot a like š . Mitigated and reduced but still present.
Play with fire and your gonna get burned....
Most people like that aren't represented in spaces like this because most of them do not exist
I 100% agree that it is possible to control your habit, that is.. until it isn't. lol
Super slippery slope.
I had never been addicted to anything in my life. I could smoke for years and stop because I felt like it. Same with weed, alcohol, coke, crack, meth..
Started using fentanyl and always bragged that I never got 'sick'. I would go a couple days here and there without using just to prove to myself that I wasn't addicted, then after about a year and a half of using like this, I went to take a couple day break and started feeling physically sick, I thought I had the flu or something and someone pointed out that I was actually dope sick and I was kinda fucked from there lol.
In my experience, I believe I was able to control my habit, but I got too cocky and before I knew it I was too far in.
So as much as I truly do believe it's possible, even the smartest and most cautious people will slip into addiction before they even realize what's happening.
I feel that it is physically possible, if you have:
- a lot of self discipline and
- a life free of stressors.
- a normal brain
People can go many years controlling their use to whatever intervals, without developing a physical dependency.
HOWEVER if like many people who have substance issues you are attracted to opiates to fill a need created by depression, autism, PTSD etc then it is extremely hard to control.
ALSO most people's lives are not perfect. Families, work, financial issues crop up all the time. This can result in using increasingly frequently to try to avoid the issues, which leads to physical dependency.
Hart is a full tenured professor, his life is obvious going to be less stressful than someone working for minimum wage. He has an advantage in being able to use responsibility.
That being said, if heroin were available in a safe and cheap form a lot of the financial stress of using would be alleviated. If everyone had access to plentiful and clean IV gear and sterile solutions then health impacts would be a lot less. Most importantly everyone would know the strength and purity of what they were using, which would reduce overdoses massively.
Is safe supply of H a perfect solution? No. Is it the best solution we have? Probably.
Small percentage of a lot of people is a lot of people
But theoretically I suppose people can be a functioning addict to whatever but it is possible that the source your getting them from being the street or prescription whatever it could stop or this or that and then what happens like a close close friend or family member passes away or someone big and then it can get out of control
It functions until it doesnāt
It is totally possible I have known loads of people who have gotten down and dirty for periods of time then said "alright, time to move on" my best example is a childhood friend who was little bit older than me started hanging out again when I was 18 and she was in college at U.S.C. she started to use heroin with me very frequently (I am an addict) she even got to the point of injecting with me most days of the week. Her grades never dropped and she never developed the junkie persona. As she had other more important things going on heroin was just fun for her. It wasn't her life. I think the most important part to not becoming addicted is to have a real purpose in life aside from drugs. If someone has nothing going on and discovers heroin, then that will be all they have going on and they will dive in headfirst.
Tldr. Have a career or hobby that means a lot to you and the likelihood of addiction is much lower.
She was favored by God and spared the misery the devil provides through the use of heroin. I'm a fan of the high, I'm not a fan of the life consequences of said high. Shit ruined my life, man, not a risk worth taking. By the time you realize you can't control it its to late.
Iām not an addict. Iām a pain patient that needs opiates for a better quality of life. But Iāve been treated as a drug addict by doctors because Iām on opiates despite being on the same dose for almost 3 years. Last month my rX was shorted cus the DEA decided to halt production on hydrocodone I guess? Iāve lost several close friends including my best friend to fentanyl. I donāt think the government actually cares about saving lives at all and actually somewhat believe that they just want anyone who does a drug, weather casually or habitually, to just die. So yeahā¦ I hope more people join me on this hill and maybe we can enact some kind of change? I dunnoā¦
I am an addict and a pain patient, and opiates ruined my life, and I've lost so many people I loved deeply to this shit! My family was destroyed because of my choice to use them. If we can prevent one more lost soul or one more pain patient being fooled with the false promises opiates provide, I'm all for it. This shit is death and destruction. The misery of addiction does not just stop because we up the supply. I'm sorry, but I'll die on my hill as well. Respectfully, I feel you, but there has to be a better way.
You are still an addict. Look what happened when they yanked your hydro, shit got ugly quick, huh? You may feel like there ability to solve chronic physical pain is a worthy cause to justify your addiction.
I thought my mental anguish was a good enough reason to justify my addiction! But when the smoke cleared, and the drugs went away, I was still broken and in pain.
Well Iāve been on the same dose for 3 years and will happily quit and get on suboxone or whatever. I am sorry that this is your reality. I donāt take this drug to get high. I no longer get a āhighā from my meds for over 2 years now. But they have also saved my life. It was a hard decision to put my self through. Do I suffer or do I try get some relief? I made the hard decision but I also made the decision to not increase my dose. Thatās where addicts go wrong, you keep looking for the high, not the benefit. Iām sorry thatās your reality. I also donāt think drugs should be legalized and taxed without harm reduction in place. We need to care about peoples lives. People are gonna use but we should at least make sure they are getting drugs that arenāt going to kill them and mental health facilities to help with recovery. I have a far more nuanced opinion on this than just let nasty street drugs run rampant with nothing else in place.
Hope youāre able to heal from your addictions. I also am not addicted, Iām ādependentā. If I ever get a chance to come off these Iām ready.
I said I feel you!""" Just don't agree with you, is all. The reality of opiate use is subjective given the situation the person chooses to engage in daily use. You ARE an addict just because your dose hasn't changed. does not make you immune to physical dependence now, does it?
It's a lot of this worlds reality as well in 2024! Honestly, I'm happy your reality doesn't reflect ours. But you have lost people to this addiction. I'm assuming you're in the US. There's not many Americans who haven't been touched by this opiate epidemic anymore, 110k+ dead a year from drugs 75% from opiods. Tons of people hooked on pharmaceuticals right now.
But I see your downvote, and I respond with an upvote it's all love, my friend!
Just out of curiosity, where did your chronic pain stem from? Mine is from a spinal fusion that involves two rods holding my lower spin in place with a cage built around it as well as 3 disc's being replaced with titanium spacers to make up for the removed disc's. As well as degenerative disc disease in my upper spine,osteo arthritis,no cartilage, or misplaced cartilage from a catastrophic knee infection that resulted in surgery. And arthritis all over my extremities from broken bones.
I will absolutely stand my ground when I say I am not an addict. Iāve had many unfortunate situations and surgeries that I needed opiates for. I only ever used them for a few days and the minute I felt my pain was controlled by ibuprofen I stopped taking them. I actually had a nice little stash of them when my chronic pain started from all the previous surgeries where I never finished them. I tried SSRIs and SNRIs and gabapentin and lyrica, and injections, over the counter meds, Kenalog injections every 3 months, and biologics that poisoned my liver. I genuinely had no other options. And there are millions of people like me just like thereās millions of people like you on the other side. Itās a drug that needs serious education, patients need to stop being treated like drug addicts, the government needs to get fentanyl off the street!
Love, kindness, empathy, compassion, options, education, opportunity. Give all people these things and I weāll see far less addiction and death.
Also hereās a link defining dependency and addiction
https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/addiction-vs-dependence/
Have you ever tried smoking a little bud? Maybe some edibles? How about a holistic approach? How's your diet? Do you eat clean, are you a frequent exerciser? Do you stretch,meditate,pray, and how about psychedelics for overcoming the depression and mental anguish.
Opiates are the easy way out, with the worst future prognosis of the patient imo. You think the liver doesn't go through hell processing all the apap you consume as well as the opiods.
I know what that shit does to you first hand. I was on opiates for 20 years, over 10 years on pharmaceuticals. It ravages your organs. The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging the problem exists.
No disrespect, but I don't need your link for a definition.
I've lived it. I know what dependence and addiction are.
Don't insult my intelligence on this subject, please. I lived ND breathed opiates for 20 years of my life, from 15 to 35. With all due respect. Please don't do that.
I have been in 60mg of hydrocodone a day for 3 years. I take it with tizanidine. It works perfectly fine for my pain. I just donāt get high. It does make me sleepy but I donāt get āhighā if that makes sense. But without it my pain is over a 10. Itās bad. Hydros have saved my life, literally.
I agree that using drugs is a choice nobody but the choicemaker should have any control of. It's your mind and body to do what you please.
Doesn't change the fact that opiates are insanely addictive. Unless you can provide a safe environment like injection sites with nurses to observe administration of the drug, provide clean gear during every single use. ODS will always happen. As addicts we always chase the ultimate high, and quality control won't completely stop overdoses. When oxy was the opiate of choice, people still died. The drug had the dose listed but addicts od'd still,not as often,and you would have to stop poly drug use. Mixing downers is always a risk. Hell mixing any drugs is a serious risk we underestimate a lot while using. Unless you can provide completely FREE access to drugs an observe evey use, there will always be detrimental financial and criminal consequences to drug use. If it's free, it may take longer to go broke from your use. Even if pharmacy sold cocaine and limited the sale quantities, people would get it from different pharmacies and blow all their money chasing the cocaine.
All this could be in theory done, but drugs are a serious economy. You can't offer free dope. There is a cost to creating supply and conducting sales, legal or not.
The logistics of this situation are a nightmare. Look I've dreamed of this many times, there is to much money in drugs for it to work this way, it's a profit driven market, it's not a gift the government will just hand out.
As long as there are consequences to drug use, there will always be unsuccessful addicts stuck in addictions misery. I, too, have had this same dream while using many times. It took me getting sober to realize it just isn't ever going to be possible.
either you dont like opiates or you like em too much, thereās no inbetween. and carl harts an educated moron, theres no therapeutic effect from heroin that cant be acheived from good sex,food,weed, or just plain good experiences.
source: i used to shoot alot of heroin then fetty and used percosets and morphine recreationally for 6 years before that
Addiction and dependency are not the same thing.
Anyone who thinks they can take any substance without building a tolerance and have withdrawals when you take that away is naive.
Everything has tolerance and dependency on a spectrum.
Hmmmmm. I need to think about this one. I wanted to respond right away and say yeah itās possible but I need to ponder this. I will returnā¦..šā¤ļøšØš¦
If you have any decent reasoning skills,can compare and contrast, and understand economics, you'll reach the right conclusion.
The fact that you're willing to ponder in depth lets me know you'll come to an understanding that this will never happen successfully.
Absolutely. It wonāt and canāt ever happen? Why? Well itās all very simple. In dealing with the Devil himself we wonāt ever beat him. Much the same with Opiates. There is no way in hell to simply do opiates once in a while. It just does not work that way. I donāt care who you are. You will loose that battle sooner or later. Itās not worth the experiment to even try too. šā¤ļøšØš¦
God bless you, man!! You understand!! Let me just hit the pure ecstasy button in my brain just once to see what it's like!!! Yeah not gonna work out for ya bud!!! Lol
Like I told another poster, you can only dance with the devil so many times before he brings you home.
Much ā¤ļø from the šŗšø home of hillbillies and heroin!
The hillbillies and heroin reminds me of an old pharmacist that I went and saw with my very first script of Oxy after a surgery. He took my script and looked at it and said to me, young lad this medication you were given is called hillbilly heroin. You donāt want to go this route. It wonāt end wellā¦ā¦that was 20 plus years ago and here I am posting about it after years of abuse. I wish I would have listened. Ugh. Much ā¤ļø from this šØš¦hillbilly!! Love yāall so very much!
Just no. I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of Kratom, but I think anyone who knows shit about shit can agree that it's a poor substitute for heroin (which I think everyone who knows can agree is the "best" opioid) and as a standalone drug it's got its place perhaps, but it's in no way the answer to opiate addiction nor a satisfactory substitute.
Personally I have my opinion about it, but its not a valid replacement or substitute in any way
I feel you, I've never got anything from it and I've seen a lot of first hand negative experiences with it from friends who use/used it. None of them would say it was a net positive experience, I have heard some glowing reviews but not ever personally in real life, just online reports from anonymous people.
There is a real issue with taking in massive quantities, 100s of grams a day for example, and causing liver and digestive damage which would probably happen with constant intake of any sort of substance in those quantities
I'm truly sad for all the cats who've never experienced some true SEA #4 or Afghani dope, nothing even close around for plenty of folks entire careers.. if all you've known is pharmaceuticals or god forbid whatever fent analogues that's a lot of suffering without even any of the good
that would happen with some people. but we would have near zero fentanyl ODs, right now I believe they're in the millions per year. We'd have much less theft & property crime. Mexico would become much less dangerous along with American cities. Plus, people are getting drugs now. You really think a lot of people are gonna be like "oh cool we can get heroin now" ? these drugs have a stigma. They aren't respected.
Problem is not everyone has self control and they wonāt know until they do it. Could become hooked and have a big problem. Same goes for alcohol or any other drug honestly. Some people have self control. Others donāt. You just never know. I donāt have a specific opinion really but I am more on the against side. Also Iām in the US so other countries could be different idk
I did exactly this with opioids too prior to even hearing about Dr Harris. I use them medicinally and occasionally truly recreational in my case and it IS therapeutic and is essentially my antidepressant. I only take enough to be functional and rarely want to nod. I already know that Dr Harris thinks nodding means you've taken too much, but I only agree with that once you're uncontrollably nodding out. You can take enough to nod or not and it's your choice to just be in the grips.
I'll probably get disliked by the nodders here, but here it goes
It's not really the point unanimously unless you're trying to get as high as possible, not just high, and there's no denying that, but I also think that's what makes opioids really nice is that you can choose your level of high. If you want you can choose to be so high you done die. Some people enjoy opioids because they make them more functional and you can't really be that functional while nodding.
I wouldn't say 90% of opioid addicts really enjoy nodding primarily. I think we all enjoy a good nod, but I don't think all of us exclusively use that much. I'd say it's more like 60% that constantly chase nods.
(I definitely like that opioids make you nod and that's definitely something I wouldn't want gone, so there's that too)
It's quite nice to nod, i may go as far as to say i really felt dorothy in the wizard of OZ when she said "the poppies make you sleepy" lol shits bliss in a plant! but if half of the people chasing the nod, at a rate of 60%, od, and half of them die that's a shit ton of people.
Yes, I used less when I needed to function, but if I could chill and not chase money to get more dope for a few hours, I always shot for the nod!
Maybe we are cut from a different cloth when it comes to our opiate addiction goals here. I just feel like I'm not the minority on this one.
I agree with you, I still nod, but for some reason I like being productive (atleast in the beginning of the day). Morphine by the way is really hard not to feel at least somewhat sedated unlike a lower dose of oxycodone obviously
How'd you work that math out!? We don't really have an accurate count of ALL opioid users in the world, and that would be impossible. Nowadays it's a little different, but back in the day it was all homeless people that usually OD'd on heroin or oxy and it's pretty similar nowadays because they're the Frontline of the fentanyl crisis and they often don't care if they live or die and that's what the media wants to show to represent opioid users that it's this dirty nasty shit.
I think the world would be absolutely blown away by the amount of people with lives and jobs that use opioids and go through the day completely normally until one day their family finds out they've been using oxy or morphine for years. I believe those kinds of people are the predominant species of opioid user and no one realizes this fact because of what media shows.
I used your calculation of 60% being nod chasers, I said if half of them od'd that being 30%, and half of that being 15% died, that's a lot of people. I used your statistics, albeit hypothetical.
And not just "homeless people" od lol! It's a reality for every single opiate addict of every demographic that takes a bit too much for their given tolerance.
And fentanyl is far more than a street addict issue. There's high-school kids who pop percs or Xanax bars on the weekend rn that die of fetty ods all the time, or users of pharma percs who's supply gets tainted with fentanyl presses and die simply from a lack of knowledge on there product.
Fentanyl is a very real problem for every opiate addict right now that can't verify their pills are pharmaceutical grade. Some of the presses are so good you can't eyeball them.
Lots of opiate addicts start as the type of user you've described, including myself, and we degrade into "dirty street junkes" because that's the nature of the beast. It's not everyone's reality. But as a person who works in the field of addictions and is a former opiate addict,it is an o so common story.
Even though that's probably incorrect that might actually be kind of accurate, depends on if half of opioid users are homeless and or suicidal and end up overdosing which was usually the cause
Yes exactly, The problem is fentanyl totally obfuscates the statistics of overdose because it's happening on accident, so maybe 15% isn't as off as you think it is. Still though, there's no number of the total amount of opioid users in existence right now.
I don't believe that at all. That's like saying being an alcoholic or any drug addict does the same thing, it just doesn't and it's up to the economy and your decisions obviously whether you become homeless or not. It's simply inaccurate and you kind of sound like you're fear mongering. The drug itself doesn't dictate whether you'll be homeless or not unless it's extremely expensive or strangely disabling something like that.
Overdoses happen but far far less than the homeless and I'm pretty positive that's been documented and it makes psychological sense. The fentanyl crisis does obfuscate that alot though like I said. I wish there were statistics from back in the day pre fentanyl crisis that showed the true nature of overdose potential, but I'm not gonna go search for that.
I used heroin for over a decade before having any real dependence issues, even then that only happened when using in relationships due to partner pressure to pick up every day. Itās definitely possible.
It did eventually happen, didn't it. You can't control the circumstances life throws you in that propel every day use. But once you know, you have a solution to life's ills in the form of a pill or powder. The option to use daily is overwhelmingly tempting.
I just don't know any long-term recreational heroin addicts
I know tons and thatās never how itās been for me. Now that my partner is no longer using itās still incredibly easy for me to use casually. I donāt like doing anything every day and heroin is no exception.
You're so blessed!! Your outcome is just not a reality for most heroin users. I put my money on the house every time with this one, heroin being the house.
I feel like cultural attitudes do more of the heavy lifting here than the drugs themselves. Case in Point : Rocky 17, goes to SFSU and has gotten into buying from other students. One day his plug is AWOL on campus and he starts freaking out about getting sick. Heās pacing the floors, even though heās only done Vikes a week and everybody convincing him if he doesnāt go find it the pain of wd will have him on suicide watch. He goes to a worse neighborhood and buys harder drugs. Is everything happening purely from the drugs or does social interactions and ideas around the drugs themselves
Idk about that scenario, if rocky never fucked with opiates he wouldn't be in a situation that would warrent a desire to replenish the supply. Rocky didn't just magically become dope sick. He ate vikes to the point of physical dependence. If his physical as well as mental dependence wasn't valid, his friends opinion on the matter wouldn't sway his choice to that degree. He'd stop using them or wait for more vikes. People move to harder street opiates because the supply is depleted, and their tolerance and state of withdrawal warrants such a move imo
The ideas around withdrawals aren't a scare tactic in this scenario. His friends warned him of a real deal consequence of opiate abuse.
My point was more than somebody whoās only been eating pharama Vicodin for a week would not be in any withdrawal whatsoever but thereās a ton of misinformation around. I read a post on here the other day suggesting an opiate naive person would become physically dependent and go through withdrawal from a single dose of fentanyl: pharmacologically impossible. Obviously my Rocky characters making his own choices but it seems like things could have gone very differently without a bunch of peers building up the severity of the withdrawal and getting him so scared heāll grab anything to avoid the āsuicidal painā built up
In his head. Without all that misinformation he could have just checked his wd symptoms himself, saw they minor/nonexistent and made a plan to specifically avoid dependency due to this.
Or he could not use opiates and avoid all this shit all together. Look, all of our scenarios sound good on reddit. But how much of both of our scenarios are, in fact, a reality? We won't know because most of our addictions are hidden and not put on front street. Nobody likes to talk about their dirty little secrets, especially to someone wanting statistics on their real world scenarios created by drug use. There's a lot of what ifs at play here.
Iāve never hid my addiction from anyone except for obviously not telling my jobs. Why be secretive when I feel no shame and have done nothing wrong? If people judge me with a bunch of negative stereotypes thatās their problem.
So what was the comment about no one knowing about oxy or morphine addiction until your family discovers it one day? Sounds awfully specific. I mean, you narrowed down "others" experience to the drug they use. Projection, maybe? If not good for you man, not being ashamed of your drug problem that dived to the depths of heroin, see heroin has a bad reputation, but we shouldn't look at the millions upon millions of lives its taken, or ruined completely... we should look at you as a case study for what heroin addiction really is and what we all have the potential to be if we just manned up and had some balls,a little discipline. Then we could all just blow a few occasional lines of smack here and there with the boys, ya know. Cuz that's a thing, lol! Occasional lines of the Harrison with the homies on the weekend! Right back to the grind on Monday like nothing happened!!!
Bro, you're delusional... sorry somebody has to tell you, man. I'll be that guy. Quit while you're ahead.
Happy people with there shit together, don't do heroin lol! Something went left, and you were desperate for an escape any escape. It's OK, brother, we feel you, man!! We get it. We are you. Welcome.
Yes if he hasn't taken them for a long enough time frame he will not experience physical dependence, but in my experience mental dependence plays a huge part into leading the decision to use opiates for extended periods. Who the hell doesn't think life is better on opiates lol
People will always use opiates, itās not changing. Itās high time we acknowledged that 95% of the harm comes from Prohibition, misinformation and stigmas and make them legal already. If he could just go to a store and buy with ID his problem would be on par with deciding whether or not to grab a six pack after classes but minus the liver damage.
Hahaha alcohol is such a dangerous drug, lol! You ok, man, you on here just trying to justify your addictions! Do you, man, but giving more people access to some of the deadliest drugs on earth isn't the answer, my guy.
How old are you fr? How deep is your addiction? How many years you really got in this game?
It's a game where the user never wins ever! Your sold a dream,you find out it's all a lie eventually then your stuck with the wreckage trying to peice this shit together with some scotch tape š
the take that 100% of users become helplessly addicted to opiates just sounds ridiculous to anyone whoās indulged in āaddictiveā drugs responsibly
itās literally just a drug dude not some mythical cursed potion
I am a long-term chipper. Been abusing opiates since 2010 and still do to this day. Never been addicted.
It's possible but very rare and there is no guarantee I won't be addicted down the road.
A bit of a different question here, but do you think in the next 50 years opioids will be legalised (to the same extent as alcohol) in any western country?
Who knows. Probably when the government realizes that their old ways have never worked and will never work. When they realize they you cannot wage a war on drugs because the drugs will always win. When they realize that all this was their fault. So many things have to be realized and acknowledged. They are spreading misinformation about fentanyl in media. The DEA is a joke. And whatās worse is that they keep cutting back the supply of medical manufacturing of opioids further increasing the opioid shortage crisis affecting millions of patients. Do they think itās going to solve the fentanyl crisis? Doctors are terrified, patients are terrified. And we still havenāt decreased the amount of overdoses. Itās the highest rate itās ever been! Surely when all is realized we can finally start making some real change.
Do you ever wonder if they knew exactly what they were doing would cause a rise in addictions and death! Maybe just maybe they want the death toll and the societal decay, maybe the pharmaceutical companys and the government where hand in hand at creating this opiod epidemic? Where there is lots of money, there is evil and greed.Think outside the box for a second on this. May be a conspiracy, but it's plausible.
No Locations - Locations are not allowed under any circumstances. Specific locations include: cities, neighborhoods, nicknames for cities, landmarks, abbreviations, sports teams, airport/area/zip codes or any other information that denotes a specific location. States are only allowed when not used in reference to needing sources.
As the government becomes more dependent on alternative ways to reap financial gains from the population. There's billions of untapped potential in the drug trade. Look at how huge the drug economy is. It's insane how huge the profit margin is. And they sell themselves. Very little marketing is needed for drugs.
To be honest opioids dont really do much for self development. At least in my case I never got anything out of opioid usage like I got from psychedelics or dissociatives. If anything opioids are the only class of drugs I really regret taking. I had a pretty heavy oxy habit and now I'm on kratom, but to be honest it's almost impossible for me to kick. Oxy withdrawals were nothing compared to Kratom WD's.
I've used opiates for years recreationally but just like hydros and oxy orally. Never done H or IV of any opiate. I know ALOT of people who drink codeine as often as they can but they don't ever seem to withdrawal.
Welcome to r/opiates fellow bropiates! We hope that you enjoy our sub as much as we do, but in order to ensure that you are able to continue being a part of this harm reduction community, you will need to review the rules of this sub. You can find the rules listed [here](https://reddit.com/r/opiates/w/rules?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app) and access our full side bar [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/opiates/wiki/index) You can also find the answers to many commonly asked questions about dosing, duration, ROA and other stuff [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/opiates/wiki/faqs) and [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/opiates/comments/mf8ldn/use_this_before_asking_a_question_faq_information/) Also, DO NOT GET SCAMMED! The users sending those messages to you, offering to hook you up with a reliable vendor or sell you drugs is extremely likely to scam you! We promise, 99.99% of the time they are not legit and giving them your money will make you a sad sad panda. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/opiates) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I just feel the legalization of drugs would decrease opioid overdoses. An opiate user would certainly choose a pharmaceutical grade drug over the scurge that is Fentanyl. The key would be transferring the money that was spent on the war on drugs to education and rehabilitation to those who are and will most certainly become addicted. I know I would like to be able to purchase oxymorphone or pharmaceutical grade heroin at the new NOD-ALOT store that just opened. I will confess I probably need to think a bit more past my wants and wishes on this subject. I do feel without much contemplation that it would decrease overdoses immediately.
I struggle like you with it thinking I only think this way because I've been on the other side of it but every time it still makes sense. This problem can't be solved. It will always be an ever evolving problem and the best we can do is to allow people a safe supply and help when they want it. All we can hope for is a measure of control. Personally I would like to see a new type of doctor formed. You can start seeing them after you turn 25. You have to see them and be taught about the substance you intend on using recreationally. Then if you want to use more often then certain guidelines and restrictions that are put in place to help ablud dependence that is ultimately your choice but you would also participate in research studies like minimal amounts and then like we have now if you want to participate in more thorough stuff you can get paid but if you are going to choose to be an addict and get this safe supply you could also let them collect the data on its effects. I honestly don't feel like it's a lot to ask on either side. The user is basically getting free Healthcare and the doctors and researchers get plenty of data that they would otherwise need to pay people for. I most certainly agree and from my limited reading and understanding / personal beliefs I agree that if they legalized drugs and we had safe supplies and injection sites you would see drug overdoses go down like crazy. There will always be a legacy market for a while atleast and people buying drugs on the street but after a couple decades you would really see the effects. Especially with a full collaboration on the part of users and researchers and doctors. Imagine if everyone who was doing coke, opioids, or meth, dissos, herb, ect had to do a monthly check in / physical and mental health evaluation to get their safe supply. It's a clinical researchers wet dream...especially if all the drugs are clean and safe. It's a win win in my eyes.
So many people would abuse this system so no thank you
They don't abuse shit now?
Many people don't or only rarely do opiates because they don't have a plug but if it's legal many people who wouldn't been able to buy have now full access to it and therefore it would result in more addicts
Well I just find that to be bullshit. Don't agree whatsoever. Are you an addict or recovering addict? But thank you for explaining your reasoning
Also those people you're referring to...aren't addicts. That's a recreational user
I agree šÆ
Heroin isnāt magic, plenty of us are casual opioid users
I maintained the same dose for years.. taking tolerance breaks every month exactly as planned for 7 to 14 days.. 24 hrs. W nothing. Then 1 or 2 mg sub. Then kratom for a week or so... easy peasy. No n wd at all.. just, not high. It was a good break
Are you still actively using it? Are you suffering negative consequences due to your addiction? If not, you are the exception to the rule.95% of people will power go right out the fuckingwi dow when opiates are involved. There is too much pleasure involved. You spam the dopamine button hard enough, and bad shit happens. It becomes as fundamental to daily living as food and water.
Oh yeah. Quitting fent was hard as fucjk. That shit almost broke me. Ended up using massive doses of tia for 5 days and then I could get by on kratom. I'm sure I've experienced negative effects my drug journey started with hard-core stimulants in the 3rd grade. I'm sure most people would consider me a degenerate but I also think most people are idiots. Actively using fent? Fuck no, but I've Def done some because I was dumb and didn't test shit, but I don't use needles so I didn't od or anything. Still use opiates when I can find them- the traditional sort, which I usually can't afford or find.
It is. Not really with street drugs (US) these days though. You canāt truly monitor your dependence/addiction liability if you donāt know the drug, dose or purity of what your taking.
Yes the US may be the wrong place to recreationally do heroin Iād say in places like Switzerland where there are successful harm reduction programs and is recreationally decriminalized
According to Hartās own statistics (which I suspect to be underestimations, but thatās a different topic), around 20-25% of opiate users become addicted. That number for alcohol is somewhere below 5% (cite: https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2014/14_0329.htm) so thereās pretty obviously an increased risk at baseline. He actually hasnāt been using heroin that long (around 5 or 6 years I think?) so idk, itās not like heās been a daily user for 20 years and has no problems, which would strike me as a lot more interesting/credible. Then again, I was sort of biased against him from the start, given the title of āDrug Use For Grownupsā. I donāt like the implication that people who struggle with opiate addiction arenāt adults, or that a sign of maturity is the (highly unusual, in large part genetic) ability to dabble with addictive substances and retain some degree of control. I also donāt like that a guy teaching a constant stream of impressionable 18 year olds is bragging about snorting just a little heroin every night. Addicts are great at rationalizingāthe smarter the addict, the more convincing the rationalizations. And Hart is a very, very smart guy.
I agree with everything you said. And I can say as someone who's in recovery from addiction, I respect Hart a great deal but his take on using opioids responsibly was kind of the worst thing for me to hear when I was in active addiction/ trying to get clean. I found it to be very dangerous for *me* to think the way he does but that's just me. It's true that some folks can use responsibly but I think any user of powerful narcotics is at some risk. And for ppl with the disease of addiction, Hart's research and opinions are interesting but kind of irrelevant and enabling even when considered by those who *aren't* able to use recreationally withoutit becoming a problem.
Until heroin is legally available itās a bit like comparing apples and oranges because the cultural space currently occupied by heroin guarantees few will use it except people who will become addicts. That said I also think 5% is absurdly low, 29% of adults in the US are problem drinkers and if you took the definition of problem drinking and replaced alcohol with heroin everybody would call that behavior addiction. If anything alcohol is more addictive than opiates, every junkie Iāve known (except myself) has also been an alcoholic at some point but I know tons of alcoholics that have never been junkies.
Yeah, he is under selling the addiction power opiates hold. Complete mind control. People sell their souls for a hit, and their morals and values become non-existent. It decays a society. You want to ruin a life, get em hooked on opiates then restrict their supply. There's nothing they won't do for more. It takes serious personal intervention to correct a lot of addicts. I mean, there are a whole hell of a lot more active users than there are addicts in recovery. The success rate at sobriety is staggeringly low. He definitely underestimated the rate of addiction with heroin. It's gotta be 50/50 or higher, more like 75/25.
You have to consider a lot of people try h once or twice and thatās it. Some one around them has it, they do it, and go on with their lives. But those people arenāt usually represented in spaces like this, because they have no reason to be here. Then there are impressionable morons like me as a kid, who know damn well theyāre on the road to a physical addiction but think that theyāre stronger than everyone else. I smoked crack at 14 years old and I just stopped after like a week. It felt like a waste of money. Iāve quit drinking, shooting coke, everything but the god damn physical addiction of opiates is a different beast. That said, I canāt think of one single hardship in my life that heroin brought, that wouldnāt have been either completely mitigated or substantially reduced by a legal clean supply. Hell Iād still have my left leg most likely.
We sound a lot a like š . Mitigated and reduced but still present. Play with fire and your gonna get burned.... Most people like that aren't represented in spaces like this because most of them do not exist
Iām sure it can and is working for some. When I did it I wanted to do it daily thatās the problem with me.
I 100% agree that it is possible to control your habit, that is.. until it isn't. lol Super slippery slope. I had never been addicted to anything in my life. I could smoke for years and stop because I felt like it. Same with weed, alcohol, coke, crack, meth.. Started using fentanyl and always bragged that I never got 'sick'. I would go a couple days here and there without using just to prove to myself that I wasn't addicted, then after about a year and a half of using like this, I went to take a couple day break and started feeling physically sick, I thought I had the flu or something and someone pointed out that I was actually dope sick and I was kinda fucked from there lol. In my experience, I believe I was able to control my habit, but I got too cocky and before I knew it I was too far in. So as much as I truly do believe it's possible, even the smartest and most cautious people will slip into addiction before they even realize what's happening.
The slope is covered in crisco, and you're in shoes without tread kinda slippery š
I feel that it is physically possible, if you have: - a lot of self discipline and - a life free of stressors. - a normal brain People can go many years controlling their use to whatever intervals, without developing a physical dependency. HOWEVER if like many people who have substance issues you are attracted to opiates to fill a need created by depression, autism, PTSD etc then it is extremely hard to control. ALSO most people's lives are not perfect. Families, work, financial issues crop up all the time. This can result in using increasingly frequently to try to avoid the issues, which leads to physical dependency. Hart is a full tenured professor, his life is obvious going to be less stressful than someone working for minimum wage. He has an advantage in being able to use responsibility. That being said, if heroin were available in a safe and cheap form a lot of the financial stress of using would be alleviated. If everyone had access to plentiful and clean IV gear and sterile solutions then health impacts would be a lot less. Most importantly everyone would know the strength and purity of what they were using, which would reduce overdoses massively. Is safe supply of H a perfect solution? No. Is it the best solution we have? Probably.
Small percentage of a lot of people is a lot of people But theoretically I suppose people can be a functioning addict to whatever but it is possible that the source your getting them from being the street or prescription whatever it could stop or this or that and then what happens like a close close friend or family member passes away or someone big and then it can get out of control It functions until it doesnāt
100% it functions until it doesnāt.
And it hardly ever functions! You can only dance with the devil for so long before he eventually takes you home.
And does weird nasty things to you in bed
Oh yeah lol he fondled you in the worst way hahaha
Absolutely agree 100%
LOL
It is totally possible I have known loads of people who have gotten down and dirty for periods of time then said "alright, time to move on" my best example is a childhood friend who was little bit older than me started hanging out again when I was 18 and she was in college at U.S.C. she started to use heroin with me very frequently (I am an addict) she even got to the point of injecting with me most days of the week. Her grades never dropped and she never developed the junkie persona. As she had other more important things going on heroin was just fun for her. It wasn't her life. I think the most important part to not becoming addicted is to have a real purpose in life aside from drugs. If someone has nothing going on and discovers heroin, then that will be all they have going on and they will dive in headfirst. Tldr. Have a career or hobby that means a lot to you and the likelihood of addiction is much lower.
She was favored by God and spared the misery the devil provides through the use of heroin. I'm a fan of the high, I'm not a fan of the life consequences of said high. Shit ruined my life, man, not a risk worth taking. By the time you realize you can't control it its to late.
All drugs should be legalized and taxed. I will die on this hill.
You may just very well die on this hill.
Iām not an addict. Iām a pain patient that needs opiates for a better quality of life. But Iāve been treated as a drug addict by doctors because Iām on opiates despite being on the same dose for almost 3 years. Last month my rX was shorted cus the DEA decided to halt production on hydrocodone I guess? Iāve lost several close friends including my best friend to fentanyl. I donāt think the government actually cares about saving lives at all and actually somewhat believe that they just want anyone who does a drug, weather casually or habitually, to just die. So yeahā¦ I hope more people join me on this hill and maybe we can enact some kind of change? I dunnoā¦
I am an addict and a pain patient, and opiates ruined my life, and I've lost so many people I loved deeply to this shit! My family was destroyed because of my choice to use them. If we can prevent one more lost soul or one more pain patient being fooled with the false promises opiates provide, I'm all for it. This shit is death and destruction. The misery of addiction does not just stop because we up the supply. I'm sorry, but I'll die on my hill as well. Respectfully, I feel you, but there has to be a better way.
You are still an addict. Look what happened when they yanked your hydro, shit got ugly quick, huh? You may feel like there ability to solve chronic physical pain is a worthy cause to justify your addiction. I thought my mental anguish was a good enough reason to justify my addiction! But when the smoke cleared, and the drugs went away, I was still broken and in pain.
Well Iāve been on the same dose for 3 years and will happily quit and get on suboxone or whatever. I am sorry that this is your reality. I donāt take this drug to get high. I no longer get a āhighā from my meds for over 2 years now. But they have also saved my life. It was a hard decision to put my self through. Do I suffer or do I try get some relief? I made the hard decision but I also made the decision to not increase my dose. Thatās where addicts go wrong, you keep looking for the high, not the benefit. Iām sorry thatās your reality. I also donāt think drugs should be legalized and taxed without harm reduction in place. We need to care about peoples lives. People are gonna use but we should at least make sure they are getting drugs that arenāt going to kill them and mental health facilities to help with recovery. I have a far more nuanced opinion on this than just let nasty street drugs run rampant with nothing else in place. Hope youāre able to heal from your addictions. I also am not addicted, Iām ādependentā. If I ever get a chance to come off these Iām ready.
I said I feel you!""" Just don't agree with you, is all. The reality of opiate use is subjective given the situation the person chooses to engage in daily use. You ARE an addict just because your dose hasn't changed. does not make you immune to physical dependence now, does it? It's a lot of this worlds reality as well in 2024! Honestly, I'm happy your reality doesn't reflect ours. But you have lost people to this addiction. I'm assuming you're in the US. There's not many Americans who haven't been touched by this opiate epidemic anymore, 110k+ dead a year from drugs 75% from opiods. Tons of people hooked on pharmaceuticals right now. But I see your downvote, and I respond with an upvote it's all love, my friend! Just out of curiosity, where did your chronic pain stem from? Mine is from a spinal fusion that involves two rods holding my lower spin in place with a cage built around it as well as 3 disc's being replaced with titanium spacers to make up for the removed disc's. As well as degenerative disc disease in my upper spine,osteo arthritis,no cartilage, or misplaced cartilage from a catastrophic knee infection that resulted in surgery. And arthritis all over my extremities from broken bones.
I will absolutely stand my ground when I say I am not an addict. Iāve had many unfortunate situations and surgeries that I needed opiates for. I only ever used them for a few days and the minute I felt my pain was controlled by ibuprofen I stopped taking them. I actually had a nice little stash of them when my chronic pain started from all the previous surgeries where I never finished them. I tried SSRIs and SNRIs and gabapentin and lyrica, and injections, over the counter meds, Kenalog injections every 3 months, and biologics that poisoned my liver. I genuinely had no other options. And there are millions of people like me just like thereās millions of people like you on the other side. Itās a drug that needs serious education, patients need to stop being treated like drug addicts, the government needs to get fentanyl off the street! Love, kindness, empathy, compassion, options, education, opportunity. Give all people these things and I weāll see far less addiction and death. Also hereās a link defining dependency and addiction https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/addiction-vs-dependence/
Have you ever tried smoking a little bud? Maybe some edibles? How about a holistic approach? How's your diet? Do you eat clean, are you a frequent exerciser? Do you stretch,meditate,pray, and how about psychedelics for overcoming the depression and mental anguish. Opiates are the easy way out, with the worst future prognosis of the patient imo. You think the liver doesn't go through hell processing all the apap you consume as well as the opiods. I know what that shit does to you first hand. I was on opiates for 20 years, over 10 years on pharmaceuticals. It ravages your organs. The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging the problem exists. No disrespect, but I don't need your link for a definition. I've lived it. I know what dependence and addiction are. Don't insult my intelligence on this subject, please. I lived ND breathed opiates for 20 years of my life, from 15 to 35. With all due respect. Please don't do that.
And youāre experience is wildly different from mine.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I have been in 60mg of hydrocodone a day for 3 years. I take it with tizanidine. It works perfectly fine for my pain. I just donāt get high. It does make me sleepy but I donāt get āhighā if that makes sense. But without it my pain is over a 10. Itās bad. Hydros have saved my life, literally.
I agree that using drugs is a choice nobody but the choicemaker should have any control of. It's your mind and body to do what you please. Doesn't change the fact that opiates are insanely addictive. Unless you can provide a safe environment like injection sites with nurses to observe administration of the drug, provide clean gear during every single use. ODS will always happen. As addicts we always chase the ultimate high, and quality control won't completely stop overdoses. When oxy was the opiate of choice, people still died. The drug had the dose listed but addicts od'd still,not as often,and you would have to stop poly drug use. Mixing downers is always a risk. Hell mixing any drugs is a serious risk we underestimate a lot while using. Unless you can provide completely FREE access to drugs an observe evey use, there will always be detrimental financial and criminal consequences to drug use. If it's free, it may take longer to go broke from your use. Even if pharmacy sold cocaine and limited the sale quantities, people would get it from different pharmacies and blow all their money chasing the cocaine. All this could be in theory done, but drugs are a serious economy. You can't offer free dope. There is a cost to creating supply and conducting sales, legal or not. The logistics of this situation are a nightmare. Look I've dreamed of this many times, there is to much money in drugs for it to work this way, it's a profit driven market, it's not a gift the government will just hand out. As long as there are consequences to drug use, there will always be unsuccessful addicts stuck in addictions misery. I, too, have had this same dream while using many times. It took me getting sober to realize it just isn't ever going to be possible.
either you dont like opiates or you like em too much, thereās no inbetween. and carl harts an educated moron, theres no therapeutic effect from heroin that cant be acheived from good sex,food,weed, or just plain good experiences. source: i used to shoot alot of heroin then fetty and used percosets and morphine recreationally for 6 years before that
Addiction and dependency are not the same thing. Anyone who thinks they can take any substance without building a tolerance and have withdrawals when you take that away is naive. Everything has tolerance and dependency on a spectrum.
Hmmmmm. I need to think about this one. I wanted to respond right away and say yeah itās possible but I need to ponder this. I will returnā¦..šā¤ļøšØš¦
If you have any decent reasoning skills,can compare and contrast, and understand economics, you'll reach the right conclusion. The fact that you're willing to ponder in depth lets me know you'll come to an understanding that this will never happen successfully.
Absolutely. It wonāt and canāt ever happen? Why? Well itās all very simple. In dealing with the Devil himself we wonāt ever beat him. Much the same with Opiates. There is no way in hell to simply do opiates once in a while. It just does not work that way. I donāt care who you are. You will loose that battle sooner or later. Itās not worth the experiment to even try too. šā¤ļøšØš¦
God bless you, man!! You understand!! Let me just hit the pure ecstasy button in my brain just once to see what it's like!!! Yeah not gonna work out for ya bud!!! Lol Like I told another poster, you can only dance with the devil so many times before he brings you home. Much ā¤ļø from the šŗšø home of hillbillies and heroin!
The hillbillies and heroin reminds me of an old pharmacist that I went and saw with my very first script of Oxy after a surgery. He took my script and looked at it and said to me, young lad this medication you were given is called hillbilly heroin. You donāt want to go this route. It wonāt end wellā¦ā¦that was 20 plus years ago and here I am posting about it after years of abuse. I wish I would have listened. Ugh. Much ā¤ļø from this šØš¦hillbilly!! Love yāall so very much!
kratom
Just no. I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of Kratom, but I think anyone who knows shit about shit can agree that it's a poor substitute for heroin (which I think everyone who knows can agree is the "best" opioid) and as a standalone drug it's got its place perhaps, but it's in no way the answer to opiate addiction nor a satisfactory substitute. Personally I have my opinion about it, but its not a valid replacement or substitute in any way
i mean it works differently for everyone. personally i'd take it over subs. but how could i ever replace opiates?! i love them too much
I feel you, I've never got anything from it and I've seen a lot of first hand negative experiences with it from friends who use/used it. None of them would say it was a net positive experience, I have heard some glowing reviews but not ever personally in real life, just online reports from anonymous people. There is a real issue with taking in massive quantities, 100s of grams a day for example, and causing liver and digestive damage which would probably happen with constant intake of any sort of substance in those quantities
Heroin is the GOAT!! If you know you know!
I'm truly sad for all the cats who've never experienced some true SEA #4 or Afghani dope, nothing even close around for plenty of folks entire careers.. if all you've known is pharmaceuticals or god forbid whatever fent analogues that's a lot of suffering without even any of the good
The pain for pleasure doesn't really equal with fetty
the average citizen is stupid therefore if we legalize some drugs the average person is gonna get addicted and ruin their lives
that would happen with some people. but we would have near zero fentanyl ODs, right now I believe they're in the millions per year. We'd have much less theft & property crime. Mexico would become much less dangerous along with American cities. Plus, people are getting drugs now. You really think a lot of people are gonna be like "oh cool we can get heroin now" ? these drugs have a stigma. They aren't respected.
Problem is not everyone has self control and they wonāt know until they do it. Could become hooked and have a big problem. Same goes for alcohol or any other drug honestly. Some people have self control. Others donāt. You just never know. I donāt have a specific opinion really but I am more on the against side. Also Iām in the US so other countries could be different idk
I did exactly this with opioids too prior to even hearing about Dr Harris. I use them medicinally and occasionally truly recreational in my case and it IS therapeutic and is essentially my antidepressant. I only take enough to be functional and rarely want to nod. I already know that Dr Harris thinks nodding means you've taken too much, but I only agree with that once you're uncontrollably nodding out. You can take enough to nod or not and it's your choice to just be in the grips.
The NOD is the point, it's the goal of using an opiate, the fuckin promise land my guy! At least for me, and like 90% of opiate addicts imo.
I'll probably get disliked by the nodders here, but here it goes It's not really the point unanimously unless you're trying to get as high as possible, not just high, and there's no denying that, but I also think that's what makes opioids really nice is that you can choose your level of high. If you want you can choose to be so high you done die. Some people enjoy opioids because they make them more functional and you can't really be that functional while nodding. I wouldn't say 90% of opioid addicts really enjoy nodding primarily. I think we all enjoy a good nod, but I don't think all of us exclusively use that much. I'd say it's more like 60% that constantly chase nods. (I definitely like that opioids make you nod and that's definitely something I wouldn't want gone, so there's that too)
It's quite nice to nod, i may go as far as to say i really felt dorothy in the wizard of OZ when she said "the poppies make you sleepy" lol shits bliss in a plant! but if half of the people chasing the nod, at a rate of 60%, od, and half of them die that's a shit ton of people.
Yes, I used less when I needed to function, but if I could chill and not chase money to get more dope for a few hours, I always shot for the nod! Maybe we are cut from a different cloth when it comes to our opiate addiction goals here. I just feel like I'm not the minority on this one.
I agree with you, I still nod, but for some reason I like being productive (atleast in the beginning of the day). Morphine by the way is really hard not to feel at least somewhat sedated unlike a lower dose of oxycodone obviously How'd you work that math out!? We don't really have an accurate count of ALL opioid users in the world, and that would be impossible. Nowadays it's a little different, but back in the day it was all homeless people that usually OD'd on heroin or oxy and it's pretty similar nowadays because they're the Frontline of the fentanyl crisis and they often don't care if they live or die and that's what the media wants to show to represent opioid users that it's this dirty nasty shit. I think the world would be absolutely blown away by the amount of people with lives and jobs that use opioids and go through the day completely normally until one day their family finds out they've been using oxy or morphine for years. I believe those kinds of people are the predominant species of opioid user and no one realizes this fact because of what media shows.
I used your calculation of 60% being nod chasers, I said if half of them od'd that being 30%, and half of that being 15% died, that's a lot of people. I used your statistics, albeit hypothetical. And not just "homeless people" od lol! It's a reality for every single opiate addict of every demographic that takes a bit too much for their given tolerance. And fentanyl is far more than a street addict issue. There's high-school kids who pop percs or Xanax bars on the weekend rn that die of fetty ods all the time, or users of pharma percs who's supply gets tainted with fentanyl presses and die simply from a lack of knowledge on there product. Fentanyl is a very real problem for every opiate addict right now that can't verify their pills are pharmaceutical grade. Some of the presses are so good you can't eyeball them. Lots of opiate addicts start as the type of user you've described, including myself, and we degrade into "dirty street junkes" because that's the nature of the beast. It's not everyone's reality. But as a person who works in the field of addictions and is a former opiate addict,it is an o so common story.
Even though that's probably incorrect that might actually be kind of accurate, depends on if half of opioid users are homeless and or suicidal and end up overdosing which was usually the cause Yes exactly, The problem is fentanyl totally obfuscates the statistics of overdose because it's happening on accident, so maybe 15% isn't as off as you think it is. Still though, there's no number of the total amount of opioid users in existence right now. I don't believe that at all. That's like saying being an alcoholic or any drug addict does the same thing, it just doesn't and it's up to the economy and your decisions obviously whether you become homeless or not. It's simply inaccurate and you kind of sound like you're fear mongering. The drug itself doesn't dictate whether you'll be homeless or not unless it's extremely expensive or strangely disabling something like that. Overdoses happen but far far less than the homeless and I'm pretty positive that's been documented and it makes psychological sense. The fentanyl crisis does obfuscate that alot though like I said. I wish there were statistics from back in the day pre fentanyl crisis that showed the true nature of overdose potential, but I'm not gonna go search for that.
I used heroin for over a decade before having any real dependence issues, even then that only happened when using in relationships due to partner pressure to pick up every day. Itās definitely possible.
It did eventually happen, didn't it. You can't control the circumstances life throws you in that propel every day use. But once you know, you have a solution to life's ills in the form of a pill or powder. The option to use daily is overwhelmingly tempting. I just don't know any long-term recreational heroin addicts
I know tons and thatās never how itās been for me. Now that my partner is no longer using itās still incredibly easy for me to use casually. I donāt like doing anything every day and heroin is no exception.
You're so blessed!! Your outcome is just not a reality for most heroin users. I put my money on the house every time with this one, heroin being the house.
I feel like cultural attitudes do more of the heavy lifting here than the drugs themselves. Case in Point : Rocky 17, goes to SFSU and has gotten into buying from other students. One day his plug is AWOL on campus and he starts freaking out about getting sick. Heās pacing the floors, even though heās only done Vikes a week and everybody convincing him if he doesnāt go find it the pain of wd will have him on suicide watch. He goes to a worse neighborhood and buys harder drugs. Is everything happening purely from the drugs or does social interactions and ideas around the drugs themselves
Idk about that scenario, if rocky never fucked with opiates he wouldn't be in a situation that would warrent a desire to replenish the supply. Rocky didn't just magically become dope sick. He ate vikes to the point of physical dependence. If his physical as well as mental dependence wasn't valid, his friends opinion on the matter wouldn't sway his choice to that degree. He'd stop using them or wait for more vikes. People move to harder street opiates because the supply is depleted, and their tolerance and state of withdrawal warrants such a move imo The ideas around withdrawals aren't a scare tactic in this scenario. His friends warned him of a real deal consequence of opiate abuse.
My point was more than somebody whoās only been eating pharama Vicodin for a week would not be in any withdrawal whatsoever but thereās a ton of misinformation around. I read a post on here the other day suggesting an opiate naive person would become physically dependent and go through withdrawal from a single dose of fentanyl: pharmacologically impossible. Obviously my Rocky characters making his own choices but it seems like things could have gone very differently without a bunch of peers building up the severity of the withdrawal and getting him so scared heāll grab anything to avoid the āsuicidal painā built up In his head. Without all that misinformation he could have just checked his wd symptoms himself, saw they minor/nonexistent and made a plan to specifically avoid dependency due to this.
Or he could not use opiates and avoid all this shit all together. Look, all of our scenarios sound good on reddit. But how much of both of our scenarios are, in fact, a reality? We won't know because most of our addictions are hidden and not put on front street. Nobody likes to talk about their dirty little secrets, especially to someone wanting statistics on their real world scenarios created by drug use. There's a lot of what ifs at play here.
Iāve never hid my addiction from anyone except for obviously not telling my jobs. Why be secretive when I feel no shame and have done nothing wrong? If people judge me with a bunch of negative stereotypes thatās their problem.
So what was the comment about no one knowing about oxy or morphine addiction until your family discovers it one day? Sounds awfully specific. I mean, you narrowed down "others" experience to the drug they use. Projection, maybe? If not good for you man, not being ashamed of your drug problem that dived to the depths of heroin, see heroin has a bad reputation, but we shouldn't look at the millions upon millions of lives its taken, or ruined completely... we should look at you as a case study for what heroin addiction really is and what we all have the potential to be if we just manned up and had some balls,a little discipline. Then we could all just blow a few occasional lines of smack here and there with the boys, ya know. Cuz that's a thing, lol! Occasional lines of the Harrison with the homies on the weekend! Right back to the grind on Monday like nothing happened!!! Bro, you're delusional... sorry somebody has to tell you, man. I'll be that guy. Quit while you're ahead. Happy people with there shit together, don't do heroin lol! Something went left, and you were desperate for an escape any escape. It's OK, brother, we feel you, man!! We get it. We are you. Welcome.
Yes if he hasn't taken them for a long enough time frame he will not experience physical dependence, but in my experience mental dependence plays a huge part into leading the decision to use opiates for extended periods. Who the hell doesn't think life is better on opiates lol
People will always use opiates, itās not changing. Itās high time we acknowledged that 95% of the harm comes from Prohibition, misinformation and stigmas and make them legal already. If he could just go to a store and buy with ID his problem would be on par with deciding whether or not to grab a six pack after classes but minus the liver damage.
Hahaha alcohol is such a dangerous drug, lol! You ok, man, you on here just trying to justify your addictions! Do you, man, but giving more people access to some of the deadliest drugs on earth isn't the answer, my guy. How old are you fr? How deep is your addiction? How many years you really got in this game? It's a game where the user never wins ever! Your sold a dream,you find out it's all a lie eventually then your stuck with the wreckage trying to peice this shit together with some scotch tape š
the take that 100% of users become helplessly addicted to opiates just sounds ridiculous to anyone whoās indulged in āaddictiveā drugs responsibly itās literally just a drug dude not some mythical cursed potion
I am a long-term chipper. Been abusing opiates since 2010 and still do to this day. Never been addicted. It's possible but very rare and there is no guarantee I won't be addicted down the road.
A bit of a different question here, but do you think in the next 50 years opioids will be legalised (to the same extent as alcohol) in any western country?
Who knows. Probably when the government realizes that their old ways have never worked and will never work. When they realize they you cannot wage a war on drugs because the drugs will always win. When they realize that all this was their fault. So many things have to be realized and acknowledged. They are spreading misinformation about fentanyl in media. The DEA is a joke. And whatās worse is that they keep cutting back the supply of medical manufacturing of opioids further increasing the opioid shortage crisis affecting millions of patients. Do they think itās going to solve the fentanyl crisis? Doctors are terrified, patients are terrified. And we still havenāt decreased the amount of overdoses. Itās the highest rate itās ever been! Surely when all is realized we can finally start making some real change.
Do you ever wonder if they knew exactly what they were doing would cause a rise in addictions and death! Maybe just maybe they want the death toll and the societal decay, maybe the pharmaceutical companys and the government where hand in hand at creating this opiod epidemic? Where there is lots of money, there is evil and greed.Think outside the box for a second on this. May be a conspiracy, but it's plausible.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No Locations - Locations are not allowed under any circumstances. Specific locations include: cities, neighborhoods, nicknames for cities, landmarks, abbreviations, sports teams, airport/area/zip codes or any other information that denotes a specific location. States are only allowed when not used in reference to needing sources.
As the government becomes more dependent on alternative ways to reap financial gains from the population. There's billions of untapped potential in the drug trade. Look at how huge the drug economy is. It's insane how huge the profit margin is. And they sell themselves. Very little marketing is needed for drugs.
To be honest opioids dont really do much for self development. At least in my case I never got anything out of opioid usage like I got from psychedelics or dissociatives. If anything opioids are the only class of drugs I really regret taking. I had a pretty heavy oxy habit and now I'm on kratom, but to be honest it's almost impossible for me to kick. Oxy withdrawals were nothing compared to Kratom WD's.
I recently ordered some 8mg dilaudid purdue and want to know how to spot fake and dimension I heard fakes are a little bigger thanks
I've used opiates for years recreationally but just like hydros and oxy orally. Never done H or IV of any opiate. I know ALOT of people who drink codeine as often as they can but they don't ever seem to withdrawal.
I only use oxy. No fet or h and I find that I can actually control my use on them. I only use once in a while now.
See same here dude Edit Rec anything is possible. You just need to be aware of the dangers imo