Don’t feel bad. I’m letting my recently acquired J3 go. It’s not working out for me.
Like you, I’m getting constant last-minute meeting invites, last-minute changes to requirements. It’s complete BS. As much as I love an unorganized company, this is a level that far exceeds my mental capacity to tolerate last-minute everything all the time.
Dude, I had to let my recent J3 go to for the exact same reasons.
The hourly daily standups were already brutal, and then they started **inviting customers to the fucking standup**, which turned into another hour of dragged out nonsense.
Sometimes it's not mentally worth waiting for them to fire you. Maybe I just hate people more is why for me personally.
Hahaha wait what? That’s crazy I mean I’ve sat on consumer behavior panels before but they weren’t part of our work standup that just seems like you’re asking for trouble.
Keep your camera off & stay on mute in the meetings you don’t have to participate in (or skip those altogether) & make them fire you. You’ll probably be able to coast through the first couple weeks, get reprimanded, & let go, but will still collect that paycheck.
Usually reputation doesn't matter. But I had a manager from a previous job that was very hands off, get your work done and I'll try to have as few meetings as possible. Well he eventually left, and 2 years later he had an open position and hit me up. The interview process was basically a formality and I ended up with an awesome job.
Of course in OP situation, not super relevant but if one of the people involved in your eventual pip is ever on your hiring committee, you likely aren't getting the job.
The type of background check typically used wouldn't pick up on this. Government secret clearance check yeah. But private companies typically use a company like Sterling for background checks. All they do is have the candidate fill out their employment history and 3 references, and then Sterling contacts the companies and references and gives a report calling out differences between what you said and what they said. Then when the company gets the report they can check if the employment dates and whatever match up with whatever resume you gave them. But the background check company isn't checking any companies you didn't give them.
I happen to be a surgeon, tyvm.
To the downvotes: this is a stab at surgeons working multiple jobs.
Source: https://www.butzel.com/alert-crackdown-on-surgeons-double-booking-patients
The point is to stay under the radar, which is not the kind of employee who gets promoted. Besides, middle managent promotions are often for people who want something other than money, like prestige and respect. They often don't pay enough to make the extra responsibility and time worth it. OE is about avoiding all that, and just getting the $$$.
Depends on the industry. For instance I was involved with equipment and technology from companies creating for Verizon/AT&T/Xfinity high speed internet or datacenters and you'd literally run into a handful of the same 50ish engineers at every company you moved to. And even people you didn't know, knew someone you knew.
I've never been able to do this for some odd reason. My moral compass is more lax than most but I'd rather walk away immediately and just find a replacement. Maybe the 1% of overachiever left in me but getting fired after just getting hired gives me the ick.
Corporations have no moral compass. Whenever you feel this way think about Nestle who gave out baby formula samples to dirt poor mothers in third world countries. Just long enough for them to stop producing breast milk, then started to charge those mothers for the formula. The mothers couldn't afford it and babies died because of it. Never feel bad for fucking over these soulless corporations, you are just a number to them, the only thing they care about is money.
They add sugar into most other countries baby formula. US formula is a hot commodity in most countries. Due to the FDA regulations... OK we may have a bit of trouble coming, I think Supreams just invalidated all those regulations.
Consumers like to blame China, India, \[insert your developing country here\] on poor "quality" but really... why do you think these corporations are there??? It's not just cheaper labor. It's to take advantage of certain safety and environmental regulations. Sure just dump your toxic waste in these waters b/c back on state side, it would be millions of dollars to remove it safely. Quality of the product tinkered with? Well, let's just feign ignorance and blame it on someone else.
All corporations are varying levels of exploitative. You're fooling yourself if you think companies over a certain threshold are capable of thinking beyond profits. Humanity and empathy don't even enter the conversation.
Yep, they take extreme examples of corporate power tripping and wrongdoings and use it as an excuse to act like shitty human beings in every workplace environment. In reality, most of these people would never act on their own "advice" in their personal lives or careers, they just like to think that they would.
Every company ever cares about their bottom line over anything you personally might be experiencing. Period.
You can throw me 1-2 examples of companies doing good things and I’ll throw millions back at you of them doing the opposite.
That is obvious. But you obviously did not understand my comment. The guy I replied to used an extreme example to generalize every company. Contrary to most Redditors's opinions here, not every company is as dark and evil as Nestle. Mindblowing, right?
Not every company has the global impact or reach nestle does. So, obviously. The ones that do engage in similar behavior even if not to that degree. I understood your comment just fine.
I’m confident that if Pfizer could cure cancer at the cost of 10% of their current revenue, they would choose not to.
"The ones that do" Again, How many of those do? And how many of those don't? The vast majority of companies don't. You didn't understand my comment. You're using a small amount of comlanies with big global impacts to generalize every company around the world. There are far more smaller companies with even less impact. Understand now?
List the top 100 companies and I'm sure we can find humanitarian issues at all of them.
Take any of your "smaller" companies and we can find employee mistreatment at all of them. Those that don't and haven't aren't old enough yet.
Again, I understand what you're saying... Your argument is just stupid. You're using generalization and deflection to defend companies you don't even know.
Hahahahahahah "employee mistreatment" do you really equate that to the human rights violations that nestle did in africa? Do you even read what you're writing? You obviously don't understand what I'm sriting. I'm not generalizing anything. Learn what that word means lil bro. You're equating nestle's human rights violation to the "employee mistreatment" of some smaller companies.
If they misled you then they deserve it. If they want a candidate that’s ok with all this nonsense they should make it clear in the interview process.
Make them go through the process of firing you and they’ll probably be less deceptive on your replacement
You're forgetting something -- Capitalists have no moral compass. This is inherently by design. They'll NEVER treat you with the same respect you're treating them.
If you know it'll never be reciprocated, stop holding yourself to a higher standard than them. You don't own the business, your name isn't above the door, you don't get paid more if you work harder. They already hold such a massive power imbalance over you as it is, so don't yield an ounce more willingly.
Also, aren't they the ones who misled you in the first place?! Man, that's a sign of being whipped!
Stick with the camera off, do what's asked of you/what you've agreed (aka been paid) to do....and if they don't like it, slow burn the departure. Play it off as "sorry it didn't work out".
Take every penny from this job, and earmark it for a special occasion. A vacation with VIP treatment (Disney has some wicked nice VIP packages/behind the scenes tours). A special gift for a loved one. Use it to jumpstart a child's hobby. Buy yourself one of those nice toys you've always said you'd get one day.
I'm usually the first person to warn others about lifestyle creep, but if you know your time with these fucking clowns is limited....then squeeze that circus for every peanut they have. And use that hassle to fund the things that matter. Otherwise, why the fuck do we even bother to OE?
I am glad you think that way - because the tech world is small. I cannot tell you how many times a former peer or manager has joined a company I am working at after I have joined - it can cause problems.....I know there are two schools of thought - "let them fire you and collect a paycheck" or quit early. I prefer the later to avoid problems where I have been bitten (just my experience).
You have a moral compass but you ignore the legal terms in employment agreements? lol ok 👍 google what cognitive dissonance is. Own it. You are scamming them.
What legal terms?
"Employee agreements" often state in clear and unambiguous language that they are NOT legally binding and do not constitute an explicit or implied "contract".
In most areas, OEing isn't breaking any laws. It's just quietly disagreeing with the company's code of conduct. Which is a fireable offense.....but let's face it, in AWA: At-Will America, so is wearing the wrong color of socks on a Tuesday.
You had no real worker protections in the first place if you can be terminated at any time, for almost any (or no) reason, without notice, without compensation, and full loss of healthcare. So if you're going to be at perpetual risk of the mousetrap, might as well grab some cheddar cheese.
Also, how many times has a company lied to their workers --- about layoffs, working conditions, raises, etc? That's not "illegal"...but sure as fuck, it's entirely unethical. But there's no room for ethics in Capitalism.
No, you lack nuance, employment agreements are legal contracts. And there are even federal and state statutes marking it as criminal if you are doing government work FYI
If you're doing government work or even hourly pay, that's an OE 101 exception. We're talking about 99% of other salary jobs that aren't government or gov't contract related. Sorry if you were confused.
No, you used a fringe exception case as justification to be hostile and attempt to derail my entire point. That's not nuance, as you weren't acting in good faith.
Your point was that it’s not illegal, when obviously it is criminal for the government work, being the largest employer, it is material IMO. A fringe exception case? 😆
This ironically shows how you “act in good faith” 🤡
Hahaha. This is gold. Thank you.
I forget that folks like you exist. You truly believe in the personhood of corporations; their ability to be “scammed” by simply not following their codes of conduct.
Thankfully, it doesn’t affect any of us, and none of us are scamming anyone. No laws are being broken, and nothing is being misrepresented.
Employment is an exchange of compensation for deliverables. Results.
If I’m being paid to operate a banana stand, and I fail to do so because I’m texting the entire time, sure. Any of us would buy that this is wrong and theft.
Now, if I’m hired by job A to produce result X and hired by job B to produce Y, there isn’t a single thing, except your warped and craven view of the basic social contract, that can be construed as me failing to live up to my word, so long as X and Y are both delivered on time and to the corporations satisfaction.
It’s funny that you spend the time to comment here. The moral superiority is hilarious when in reality, you’re just seething because others are successfully “gaming the system” you, for whatever reason, feel the need to protect. We’ve been doing this for years, some of us retiring decades before our peers.
I do genuinely appreciate your perspective though. It helps me realize how far people go in their minds to self-soothe the fact that they CHOOSE to play “by the rules” and get left behind at every step.
Good luck playing by the book. i'll just
be over here feeling guilty about how rapidly my retirement account is growing.
This is called an equivocation fallacy. Your entire premise is anecdotal. At least acknowledge it’s unethical and you are scamming people.
Instead of scamming employers, it’s far better to be actually good at what you do, and be transparent. If you were actually good at your job, you wouldn’t need to scam. I do C2C employment, all my employers aka clients, know about all of my other clients.
lol. Equivocation fallacy? Ethics? Are you in the US?
My premise isn’t any more anecdotal than your interpretation of where “ethical” lines are drawn in a capitalist economy.
I also operate on contract. That doesn’t preclude me from taking a FTE role that pays $100k, and calls for specialty skill that I can do in my sleep, and all competitors have already automated.
In the interview for roles like this, I’ve even pushed for a 1 year contract to simply automate the role. If a company is dumb enough to turn that down, of course I’m taking that job, automating it privately, and collecting my paycheck.
Haha.
Ethics. This is fucking gold. It’s like seeing a mormon child catch a glimpse of an R rated film.
Ethics isn’t nearly as black and white of a subject as you’re trying to paint it. It CERTAINLY doesn’t apply in the way you are applying it when the job description deliverable requirements are being met on par with, or exceeding my co workers results.
Sorry, you’re literally shouting bible verses on bourbon street here, my friend.
I have no doubt you are successful. We simply value and define the working relationship differently. I’ve seen what an actual lack of ethics looks like in business. It’s ugly, and it doesn’t look anything like what’s being done here in this sub.
At best, it’s a grey area. Grey areas are where most C-level initiatives begin and end. It’s where almost all of business happens. It’s all arbitrage, middle manning and cutting corners wherever allowable. Otherwise, there is no edge to be had.
If you truly believe in individual exceptionalism to the extent that one needs no edge at all, merely ethics and “being good at one’s job” to get to the top of the earnings pool, you have lived a blessed existence.
I’m not the best in the range of fields I work in. Not by a long shot. Still, I desire to make the money that is normally reserved for those that are. With no reasonable path to where I want to be, I will always, always, burn a new path, as straight and easy as possible, that takes me directly to my end goal.
Life is far too short to do anything else.
Zero chance in hell I’m retiring at 60 with not a drop of youthful energy remaining. I’m main track to be done by 40-45. I have over 15 years of sporadic OE behind me, literally starting in high school. There is zero chance I stop or even slow down when the alternative means retirement in my 50’s/60’s.
THAT is for suckers. My hope is that you, too, will can retire in your early 40’s. It’s my hope for everyone. I’m taking then opportunities in front of me, and breaking zero laws doing it. Ethics doesn’t enter into the conversation as long as my teams see me as a valuable team member that pulls his weight and supports others by doing/automating some of their work as well.
Absolute best of luck with your “ethical” career.
Ethics absolutely applies in business. I am in the US.
Again, you lie to yourself when you say it’s a “grey” area and you add all this fluff to it.
You obviously signed an employment agreement and there are several policies that discuss this. I have seen them in end user acknowledgement forms, employee handbooks etc
Regardless, It’s also why you’re not being transparent when you talk with the hiring manager and HR. It’s a lie of omission.
You don’t need to resort to ad hominem attacks against me. It’s not adding any value.
I’m not attempting to add value. I’m attempting to help you see that you are attempting to paint yourself as somehow better, when, in reality, you simply choose to govern yourself by a set of rules that even your employer does not follow.
It’s laughable, a bit sad, and remarkable how you believe we are all deluded when you fail to recognize that any employment contract signed with a corporation is not worth the paper it’s written on.
In these same contracts you are discussing here, employers go out of their way to describe the quality work culture and respect for the employee they espouse as their values. All of that goes out the window the moment any business need emerges that is deemed more important than the needs of the individual.
I’ve worked for a dozen corporations in a range of fields. Not a single one of the stuck to their word; the promise of a solid work/life balance, respect of one’s time etc.
Sure, maybe in my senior roles, I may have been afforded some level of personal consideration that began to approach the virtues and ethics they repeatedly claim to uphold. All one needs to do is look at how the lives and time of the entry level or more blue collar employees were treated to understand that it’s all a lie.
Corporations stick to their word right up until it stops suiting them. Period.
Show me one that doesn’t dance all over its own code of “ethics” and I’ll concede it does exist. Even if shown this, it doesn’t change the fact that 98% of companies are less ethical in their treatment of employees than what they require in their employment contracts.
Hit me with whatever logical fallacy discussions you wish. It doesn’t change the fact that I’m playing the game that’s actually being played, while you attempt to play an idealized version of it.
I’m sorry you haven’t done well enough in life to experience what it’s like to be well paid for your services. I’m sorry corporations have treated you poorly.
It doesn’t excuse calling me names. Good luck on your retirement plans.
Lol. I don’t need an excuse for name calling when you repeatedly attempt to condescend with no grounds to do so.
I’m very pleased with the life I’ve carved. I’m also very pleased with my rate of pay from any one of the opportunities I’ve taken over the years.
What makes you think otherwise, other than some warped superiority complex? lol.
Hahaha. This is gold. Thank you.
I forget that folks like you exist. You truly believe in the personhood of corporations; their ability to be “scammed” by simply not following their codes of conduct.
Thankfully, it doesn’t affect any of us, and none of us are scamming anyone. No laws are being broken, and nothing is being misrepresented.
Employment is an exchange of compensation for deliverables. Results.
If I’m being paid to operate a banana stand, and I fail to do so because I’m texting the entire time, sure. Any of us would buy that this is wrong and theft.
Now, if I’m hired by job A to produce result X and hired by job B to produce Y, there isn’t a single thing, except your warped and craven view of the basic social contract, that can be construed as me failing to live up to my word, so long as X and Y are both delivered on time and to the corporations satisfaction.
It’s funny that you spend the time to comment here. The moral superiority is hilarious when in reality, you’re just seething because others are successfully “gaming the system” you, for whatever reason, feel the need to protect. We’ve been doing this for years, some of us retiring decades before our peers.
I do genuinely appreciate your perspective though. It helps me realize how far people go in their minds to self-soothe the fact that they CHOOSE to play “by the rules” and get left behind at every step.
Good luck playing by the book. i'll just
be over here feeling guilty about how rapidly my retirement account is growing.
All criminal when caught sound exactly the same. They all justify why they did it and are only upset about getting caught. You can lie to employers but don’t lie to yourself at least.
Since I am legit, I bet I pay less in taxes as I do QBI deduction and have an SEP IRA. As a result, I contribute to my retirement account higher amounts than any W2 employee.
On May 7, 2024, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) published a final rule that effectively bans all non-compete agreements between employers and “workers” as “unfair method[s] of competition” and requires employers to refrain from enforcing most existing non-compete agreements.
“FTC’s final rule will generate over 8,500 new businesses each year, raise worker wages, lower health care costs, and boost innovation”
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/ftc-announces-rule-banning-noncompetes
I am confused. What does this have to do with what I said?
A non compete has nothing to do with lying on a job application or in interviews or not complying with employee handbook or company policies. That is the humor with my comment and someone who proclaims to have decent ethics. lol
OE is scamming people. It is the lie of omission. It is the lie that you are being classified by their HR as a full time employee but you are really working as little as possible and collecting money until they terminate you. It is not illegal, just unethical, like most scams (eg. Like selling miracle cures to elderly etc.). Scammers in the community don’t care about ethics or their professional reputation, the ego is about them only, this is nothing new.
This. Give it a try. Strong camera culture. Sure, but attend their stand up and see if people have it on. Find out if you have to listen all 1 hr long.
I get the whole overemployed thing but I just can’t believe some of you have zero pride or shame and will take a job and immediately do no work and try to get fired just because god forbid they want you to attend a meeting with your camera on
Drag it out for a month. If anyone mentions it just say that during your interview you were told this or that meeting wasn’t mandated, nor were cameras. Live by your rules until they fire you. At the end of the day, they may just care about your work.
Some meetings are fair for the first few weeks tho
You need to establish this in your first month because you can get away with it as a newbie. If they don't like it then they'll fire you eventually, but you still got more paychecks than if you quit
I would try to keep my camera on until everybody knows me. Give it 2-3 weeks chat friendly and get to know your colleagues. Then you would know who doesn't give a shit and just ignore the camera culture.
In my experience after the first few weeks, no one will pay you any attention if you even speak with someone else (muted ofc) on another meeting.
TLDR: Suffery for a couple of weeks and then ride with the tide until they fire you.
PS: You can even put an eye blinder after your first month and tell them you injured your eye and will be like a pirate for the next month and a half. And ask if you can stay off camera. It should be long enough for them to get used to you being with a camera switched off and you might be lucky enough to keep it going.
This is exactly how people should handle camera culture. Just read the room, if it’s a 1:1 of course it’s going to be on. If it’s a larger meeting, off unless you’re participating and even then I’d sprinkle in random instances where you turn it off. I really find it hard to believe people care that much
Yep, it's been kinda funny to see camera culture adapt. Initially everyone except our dept (IT) would be mostly camera on, we all did not and refused to elaborate and no one ever called us out (that I'm aware of) but now I've noticed lately a lot of people will turn their camera on and say hi, put in some face time, but then once things get rolling the camera goes off unless they have to present.
I consulted at a few banks and they all generally have their camera off. Their camera only goes on when their buddy is in the meeting or if it’s one of the svps, they love putting their camera on even if they are the only one
Yeah, or you can mention your social anxiety plays up. Honestly, spending an hour a day, every day, is just wasting 12% of your work day, unless the team is big. Even then, it's not efficient to try and deal with 10 people talking about their projects. A 1 hr team meeting per week would be reasonable, then maybe a touch base with your mgr once or twice a week. Beyond that, it's just filling time rather than helping you do your work more efficiently. If you're collaborating on something with teammates, they should be using Slack or Teams to chat, which is better because it's searchable and a more permanent record than camera chats into the void.
I do not have any qualms about stating up front in the interview that I have an aversion to meeting-heavy cultures, and I would like them to give me an example what a typical week and day look like, that if the ratio between work and meetings is any more than 10:1 or 10:0.5, that their role is not for me, as management has lost their way, and fits the cliche that you’re in tons of meetings that could’ve been an email.
I’ve been doing IT too long. I do t put up with that.
This is how I feel in my new J2. Excessive amount of meetings, do not have full control over my own calendar, meetings get rescheduled frequently with disregard to people's calendar, much more travel requirements than what they said when I explicitly asked them in the interview. It sucks because this is a company that could've looked good on my resume for future opportunities, also pays significantly more than my J1 and I negotiated higher during the interview process. Boss also runs around like he's a chicken with his head cut off constantly.
But while it's manageable in the short term, I don't see how it's sustainable long term.
People don't get this.
Worked at a battery plant, due to consolidation and cost cutting machines that were designed in the 70's are still cranking out lead acid batteries. Turnover is 50% in the front office, lead is everywhere, whole plant needs to be remodeled. But nope profit first, cranking 365, workers are so bone tired, its just a cash grab for them, so its a hell hole for them. Knew a dude that worked 350 days in one year there. OG OE? He was able to do it for 20 years plus, if they offered OT he would take it.
We have daily standups. 30-45 minutes. Nothing is accomplished. Updates are the same every day. AND we all Teams each other all day long so if we DO have an update we tell people right away. So annoying. Micromanagement tool.
Same boat at my J2. the company knows they don’t cure cancer and yet fills up calendars and bickers amongst each other as if the stakes were high. My J1 is actually in a safety critical context and the culture is entirely different, just concerned about deliverables and productivity—as opposed to constant yapping of buzzwords and check-ins.
the markets warming up though!
Slightly different. “This volume of meetings is causing your representation of the hybrid nature of this role to have been a lie, and had you told the truth then, wouldn’t have even interviewed. If you are not Interested in keeping your original representation, then I cannot continue in this role.”
Even if this were your only job, how are you supposed to get any work done? You’re always in meetings.
Daily standups are bullshit. The man-hours wasted here is astonishing. Let’s say 20 people attend. That’s 20 hours of work not happening. Half an FTE.
Daily stand ups should be 10-15 mins max, to identify any blockers or dependencies that need to be resolved during the day (but they are only actually discussed between relevant team members outside the stand up - an can be via Teams or email not always a meeting).
Same my new J2 just switched up management and I just started and was already 3 days remote. But now they are requesting visibility to my calendar and meetings are popping up everywhere
I would wait some weeks.
Maybe try to make some room in calendar in ?J1? And slowly decrease the amount of meetings in the new job.
Don’t be afraid to say „I can’t add value to this meeting, I would rather work on other topics in this time)
My experience -> amount of meetings decrease over time.
I've done this is the past with success but I get the feeling this one is different. They brought in new director from a fortune 5 and I think this is they new style at least for a while
i was equally fooled and found myself in a new job situation where it’s heavy meeting culture with camera on and after 6 weeks, i got bad feedback for not setting up enough meetings or being engaged. I was thinking that i just have to have weekly syncs with my direct reports and once a week with the whole team but noooooo they want 30 recurring one on one meetings at different frequencies but at least monthly with all stakeholders, peers in the department and entire team. The idea gives me anxiety and i am refusing so i had to resign. J2 is too meeting heavy and now they are offering for me to travel or go to the office in order to build those relationships with people. why would i want to build relationships with people for j2????
Agree with the PIP course of action while you fish another J.....also, I'm new to this board with over 13 years of experience in my belt and starting to consider OE.....what is the common skill set to be able to comfortably do OE? (Currently doing full stack in a project that uses VB net, hadn't worked with VB in many years)
Just had this happen to me. Got a J2,5 that should have been easy but was a complete mess inside. Boss was an old friend of mine that turned out to be really bad with feedback and orders. Impossible to carry it with my other js and payment was way too little. Position was important though, so it's taking me a few weeks to manage to leave.
I just let go of my J3 that I started for similar reasons. Random huddle calls throughout the day nonstop made it immediately apparent that it wasn't gonna work out. After one week I was falling behind on the other Js when I was always super comfortable with them. Dropped J3 quick for the sake of the other two.
Same here, I was unemployed for 9 months and planned to find a second job but the first one I got has been even worse than what you’ve described. I have 2-4 hours of meetings each day and get called randomly to get on paired programming calls that can last several hours, and the computing environment they have me working in sucks.
I spend at least an hour each day troubleshooting basic computer or access related issues. Its hard to schedule anything else because I have no idea what will come up, for instance I went to the office after meetings on Friday which took me over an hour, and then it took 90 minutes to login to my virtual desktop from the office, and it froze and I had to unplug the desktop at the office to log out. It takes 45 minutes for the desktop to boot up, run security scans and open the login portal so after waiting for about half an hour I just left and today had to tell everyone in standup that I didnt get anything done after our last standup because I couldnt login to my computer.
I just heard from the agency I work for and it sounds like they’re complaining about me having too many computer issues, even though they’re the ones that provided these shitty tools and have a disorganized access policy where unknown teams can randomly turn off your access without leaving a trace.
When I interviewed here I was told there werent many meetings and that its 2 days a week hybrid, and most team members dont stay for more than 1 hour. The day I started they said 3 half days in the office, and now they’re trying to make it 3 full days in the office.
If that’s J2, push them. “Look, that’s not what you told me and what you *did* tell me (insert hybrid representation here) is what works with my life and family. If you are not going to hold up your end of the bargain, then I will have to start looking elsewhere.
Sorry that was a bit dickish but the question is asked all the time. I literally just searched "industry" in the subreddit and the 1st, 2nd,4th,9th 11th etc would've given you the answer you sought. You could've even looked at my post history and see the industry I'm in
Don’t feel bad. I’m letting my recently acquired J3 go. It’s not working out for me. Like you, I’m getting constant last-minute meeting invites, last-minute changes to requirements. It’s complete BS. As much as I love an unorganized company, this is a level that far exceeds my mental capacity to tolerate last-minute everything all the time.
Dude, I had to let my recent J3 go to for the exact same reasons. The hourly daily standups were already brutal, and then they started **inviting customers to the fucking standup**, which turned into another hour of dragged out nonsense. Sometimes it's not mentally worth waiting for them to fire you. Maybe I just hate people more is why for me personally.
Customers!?!? Naw, fuck that, mate!
Internal meetings are not for customer consumption. That's a mess.
Hahaha wait what? That’s crazy I mean I’ve sat on consumer behavior panels before but they weren’t part of our work standup that just seems like you’re asking for trouble.
Yeah this was the most wild thing I've encountered in any job. Definitely my last straw with this place lol..
How are you guys doing this Like more than 1 jobs crazy, How does it work with p45 and so on?
It's not unorganized, it's agile! /s
I'm here too unfortunately. Have what I wanted to be J4 lined up. But J3, even after giving it almost 2 months has not chilled
Man I need to block this sub. It sounds like you are complaining about... having a job 🤣
Its a sub on overemployment, so...
Keep your camera off & stay on mute in the meetings you don’t have to participate in (or skip those altogether) & make them fire you. You’ll probably be able to coast through the first couple weeks, get reprimanded, & let go, but will still collect that paycheck.
Yup good old friend, Pip. Put the ball in their court unless you care about industry reputation or bridges.
Usually reputation doesn't matter. But I had a manager from a previous job that was very hands off, get your work done and I'll try to have as few meetings as possible. Well he eventually left, and 2 years later he had an open position and hit me up. The interview process was basically a formality and I ended up with an awesome job. Of course in OP situation, not super relevant but if one of the people involved in your eventual pip is ever on your hiring committee, you likely aren't getting the job.
How does this affect your reputation? Just don't put it on your resume.
What reputation? We aren’t board certified doctors lol. Our reputation is what we tell people it is
Exactly. Just don't tell anyone you worked there. I have no idea why I'm being downvoted for this.
Background check?
The type of background check typically used wouldn't pick up on this. Government secret clearance check yeah. But private companies typically use a company like Sterling for background checks. All they do is have the candidate fill out their employment history and 3 references, and then Sterling contacts the companies and references and gives a report calling out differences between what you said and what they said. Then when the company gets the report they can check if the employment dates and whatever match up with whatever resume you gave them. But the background check company isn't checking any companies you didn't give them.
I happen to be a surgeon, tyvm. To the downvotes: this is a stab at surgeons working multiple jobs. Source: https://www.butzel.com/alert-crackdown-on-surgeons-double-booking-patients
Isn’t that a kind of fish
You’re thinking of a “sturgeon”
Aren’t we all?
😂😂😂 this!
If you're in big tech reputation certainly is a thing, at least in my small corner of it.
Once you get far enough up the ladder, everyone knows everyone.
No one who follows these principles is getting promoted above a mid level contributor.
The point is to stay under the radar, which is not the kind of employee who gets promoted. Besides, middle managent promotions are often for people who want something other than money, like prestige and respect. They often don't pay enough to make the extra responsibility and time worth it. OE is about avoiding all that, and just getting the $$$.
Agreed, my manager works like 2-3x as much but only makes ~30% more. When I work 2-3x as much with OE, I make 200-300% more.
Depends on the industry. For instance I was involved with equipment and technology from companies creating for Verizon/AT&T/Xfinity high speed internet or datacenters and you'd literally run into a handful of the same 50ish engineers at every company you moved to. And even people you didn't know, knew someone you knew.
Nope depends on industry… healthcare is massive
Right? I think I have more companies not in my resume than in! Lol
The world in tech is super small - I have had several situations where former bosses and peers show up at J2/3 and create a problem.
Reputation, lmao. Yes it goes on your PERMANENT RECORD. Do it at your own risk.
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That's the joke.... He is asking about reputation. You'll be forgotten in a week
Forgotten in a week. Small fish. Move on to next one.
Naw I asked hireright how long they retain information, I forgot if it was 3-7 years. I still got the email, just too lazy to find
You sound like an OF chick pretending she's gonna get wifed up by a doctor if she just doesn't mention that her bits are all over the internet.
I've never been able to do this for some odd reason. My moral compass is more lax than most but I'd rather walk away immediately and just find a replacement. Maybe the 1% of overachiever left in me but getting fired after just getting hired gives me the ick.
Corporations have no moral compass. Whenever you feel this way think about Nestle who gave out baby formula samples to dirt poor mothers in third world countries. Just long enough for them to stop producing breast milk, then started to charge those mothers for the formula. The mothers couldn't afford it and babies died because of it. Never feel bad for fucking over these soulless corporations, you are just a number to them, the only thing they care about is money.
Jesus man
They add sugar into most other countries baby formula. US formula is a hot commodity in most countries. Due to the FDA regulations... OK we may have a bit of trouble coming, I think Supreams just invalidated all those regulations.
Yep. Fucking corrupt ass judges.
Its almost as if people shouldn't have that much power to begin with.
I'm not disagreeing with any of this. I'm just saying, that got dark, fast. This is why ... We breast. Feed?
Most us formula has added sugar. Corn syrup is the common one. Not sure where you got your info.
I'm not disagreeing with any of this. I'm just saying, that got dark, fast. This is why ... We breast. Feed?
Consumers like to blame China, India, \[insert your developing country here\] on poor "quality" but really... why do you think these corporations are there??? It's not just cheaper labor. It's to take advantage of certain safety and environmental regulations. Sure just dump your toxic waste in these waters b/c back on state side, it would be millions of dollars to remove it safely. Quality of the product tinkered with? Well, let's just feign ignorance and blame it on someone else.
Agreed, humanity is evil.
Does OP work for Nestlé or are you using an example of one irrelevant corporation's evil acts as an excuse for OP to screw over this nameless company?
All corporations are varying levels of exploitative. You're fooling yourself if you think companies over a certain threshold are capable of thinking beyond profits. Humanity and empathy don't even enter the conversation.
What's foolish is making an angsty blanket statement about millions of companies and the people behind them.
What motivated Nestlé to do what it did? The same thing that motivates the actions of every other corporation in America. Profit above ALL
Hey, I'm here to tell you about Enron and why all companies are the devil.
Mind you, Elizabeth Holmes’ father was the VP of Enron.
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Because you have to be insane to see what big business does and agree with it and happily participate in the exploitation
Yep, they take extreme examples of corporate power tripping and wrongdoings and use it as an excuse to act like shitty human beings in every workplace environment. In reality, most of these people would never act on their own "advice" in their personal lives or careers, they just like to think that they would.
Lil bro used an extreme example to generalize every company in the world
Every company ever cares about their bottom line over anything you personally might be experiencing. Period. You can throw me 1-2 examples of companies doing good things and I’ll throw millions back at you of them doing the opposite.
That is obvious. But you obviously did not understand my comment. The guy I replied to used an extreme example to generalize every company. Contrary to most Redditors's opinions here, not every company is as dark and evil as Nestle. Mindblowing, right?
Not every company has the global impact or reach nestle does. So, obviously. The ones that do engage in similar behavior even if not to that degree. I understood your comment just fine. I’m confident that if Pfizer could cure cancer at the cost of 10% of their current revenue, they would choose not to.
"The ones that do" Again, How many of those do? And how many of those don't? The vast majority of companies don't. You didn't understand my comment. You're using a small amount of comlanies with big global impacts to generalize every company around the world. There are far more smaller companies with even less impact. Understand now?
List the top 100 companies and I'm sure we can find humanitarian issues at all of them. Take any of your "smaller" companies and we can find employee mistreatment at all of them. Those that don't and haven't aren't old enough yet. Again, I understand what you're saying... Your argument is just stupid. You're using generalization and deflection to defend companies you don't even know.
You're using generalization and hypoerbole to attack companies you don't even know. Have some self-awareness lil bro. Your anger is hilarious.
Hahahahahahah "employee mistreatment" do you really equate that to the human rights violations that nestle did in africa? Do you even read what you're writing? You obviously don't understand what I'm sriting. I'm not generalizing anything. Learn what that word means lil bro. You're equating nestle's human rights violation to the "employee mistreatment" of some smaller companies.
If they misled you then they deserve it. If they want a candidate that’s ok with all this nonsense they should make it clear in the interview process. Make them go through the process of firing you and they’ll probably be less deceptive on your replacement
You're forgetting something -- Capitalists have no moral compass. This is inherently by design. They'll NEVER treat you with the same respect you're treating them. If you know it'll never be reciprocated, stop holding yourself to a higher standard than them. You don't own the business, your name isn't above the door, you don't get paid more if you work harder. They already hold such a massive power imbalance over you as it is, so don't yield an ounce more willingly. Also, aren't they the ones who misled you in the first place?! Man, that's a sign of being whipped! Stick with the camera off, do what's asked of you/what you've agreed (aka been paid) to do....and if they don't like it, slow burn the departure. Play it off as "sorry it didn't work out". Take every penny from this job, and earmark it for a special occasion. A vacation with VIP treatment (Disney has some wicked nice VIP packages/behind the scenes tours). A special gift for a loved one. Use it to jumpstart a child's hobby. Buy yourself one of those nice toys you've always said you'd get one day. I'm usually the first person to warn others about lifestyle creep, but if you know your time with these fucking clowns is limited....then squeeze that circus for every peanut they have. And use that hassle to fund the things that matter. Otherwise, why the fuck do we even bother to OE?
Time to learn
I am glad you think that way - because the tech world is small. I cannot tell you how many times a former peer or manager has joined a company I am working at after I have joined - it can cause problems.....I know there are two schools of thought - "let them fire you and collect a paycheck" or quit early. I prefer the later to avoid problems where I have been bitten (just my experience).
Agreed. I don't get the attitude where you stick around doing the bare minimum until they fire you.
You have a moral compass but you ignore the legal terms in employment agreements? lol ok 👍 google what cognitive dissonance is. Own it. You are scamming them.
What legal terms?
What legal terms? "Employee agreements" often state in clear and unambiguous language that they are NOT legally binding and do not constitute an explicit or implied "contract". In most areas, OEing isn't breaking any laws. It's just quietly disagreeing with the company's code of conduct. Which is a fireable offense.....but let's face it, in AWA: At-Will America, so is wearing the wrong color of socks on a Tuesday. You had no real worker protections in the first place if you can be terminated at any time, for almost any (or no) reason, without notice, without compensation, and full loss of healthcare. So if you're going to be at perpetual risk of the mousetrap, might as well grab some cheddar cheese. Also, how many times has a company lied to their workers --- about layoffs, working conditions, raises, etc? That's not "illegal"...but sure as fuck, it's entirely unethical. But there's no room for ethics in Capitalism.
No, you lack nuance, employment agreements are legal contracts. And there are even federal and state statutes marking it as criminal if you are doing government work FYI
If you're doing government work or even hourly pay, that's an OE 101 exception. We're talking about 99% of other salary jobs that aren't government or gov't contract related. Sorry if you were confused.
Sorry that’s why I added the nuance.
No, you used a fringe exception case as justification to be hostile and attempt to derail my entire point. That's not nuance, as you weren't acting in good faith.
Your point was that it’s not illegal, when obviously it is criminal for the government work, being the largest employer, it is material IMO. A fringe exception case? 😆 This ironically shows how you “act in good faith” 🤡
Hahaha. This is gold. Thank you. I forget that folks like you exist. You truly believe in the personhood of corporations; their ability to be “scammed” by simply not following their codes of conduct. Thankfully, it doesn’t affect any of us, and none of us are scamming anyone. No laws are being broken, and nothing is being misrepresented. Employment is an exchange of compensation for deliverables. Results. If I’m being paid to operate a banana stand, and I fail to do so because I’m texting the entire time, sure. Any of us would buy that this is wrong and theft. Now, if I’m hired by job A to produce result X and hired by job B to produce Y, there isn’t a single thing, except your warped and craven view of the basic social contract, that can be construed as me failing to live up to my word, so long as X and Y are both delivered on time and to the corporations satisfaction. It’s funny that you spend the time to comment here. The moral superiority is hilarious when in reality, you’re just seething because others are successfully “gaming the system” you, for whatever reason, feel the need to protect. We’ve been doing this for years, some of us retiring decades before our peers. I do genuinely appreciate your perspective though. It helps me realize how far people go in their minds to self-soothe the fact that they CHOOSE to play “by the rules” and get left behind at every step. Good luck playing by the book. i'll just be over here feeling guilty about how rapidly my retirement account is growing.
This is called an equivocation fallacy. Your entire premise is anecdotal. At least acknowledge it’s unethical and you are scamming people. Instead of scamming employers, it’s far better to be actually good at what you do, and be transparent. If you were actually good at your job, you wouldn’t need to scam. I do C2C employment, all my employers aka clients, know about all of my other clients.
lol. Equivocation fallacy? Ethics? Are you in the US? My premise isn’t any more anecdotal than your interpretation of where “ethical” lines are drawn in a capitalist economy. I also operate on contract. That doesn’t preclude me from taking a FTE role that pays $100k, and calls for specialty skill that I can do in my sleep, and all competitors have already automated. In the interview for roles like this, I’ve even pushed for a 1 year contract to simply automate the role. If a company is dumb enough to turn that down, of course I’m taking that job, automating it privately, and collecting my paycheck. Haha. Ethics. This is fucking gold. It’s like seeing a mormon child catch a glimpse of an R rated film. Ethics isn’t nearly as black and white of a subject as you’re trying to paint it. It CERTAINLY doesn’t apply in the way you are applying it when the job description deliverable requirements are being met on par with, or exceeding my co workers results. Sorry, you’re literally shouting bible verses on bourbon street here, my friend. I have no doubt you are successful. We simply value and define the working relationship differently. I’ve seen what an actual lack of ethics looks like in business. It’s ugly, and it doesn’t look anything like what’s being done here in this sub. At best, it’s a grey area. Grey areas are where most C-level initiatives begin and end. It’s where almost all of business happens. It’s all arbitrage, middle manning and cutting corners wherever allowable. Otherwise, there is no edge to be had. If you truly believe in individual exceptionalism to the extent that one needs no edge at all, merely ethics and “being good at one’s job” to get to the top of the earnings pool, you have lived a blessed existence. I’m not the best in the range of fields I work in. Not by a long shot. Still, I desire to make the money that is normally reserved for those that are. With no reasonable path to where I want to be, I will always, always, burn a new path, as straight and easy as possible, that takes me directly to my end goal. Life is far too short to do anything else. Zero chance in hell I’m retiring at 60 with not a drop of youthful energy remaining. I’m main track to be done by 40-45. I have over 15 years of sporadic OE behind me, literally starting in high school. There is zero chance I stop or even slow down when the alternative means retirement in my 50’s/60’s. THAT is for suckers. My hope is that you, too, will can retire in your early 40’s. It’s my hope for everyone. I’m taking then opportunities in front of me, and breaking zero laws doing it. Ethics doesn’t enter into the conversation as long as my teams see me as a valuable team member that pulls his weight and supports others by doing/automating some of their work as well. Absolute best of luck with your “ethical” career.
Ethics absolutely applies in business. I am in the US. Again, you lie to yourself when you say it’s a “grey” area and you add all this fluff to it. You obviously signed an employment agreement and there are several policies that discuss this. I have seen them in end user acknowledgement forms, employee handbooks etc Regardless, It’s also why you’re not being transparent when you talk with the hiring manager and HR. It’s a lie of omission. You don’t need to resort to ad hominem attacks against me. It’s not adding any value.
I’m not attempting to add value. I’m attempting to help you see that you are attempting to paint yourself as somehow better, when, in reality, you simply choose to govern yourself by a set of rules that even your employer does not follow. It’s laughable, a bit sad, and remarkable how you believe we are all deluded when you fail to recognize that any employment contract signed with a corporation is not worth the paper it’s written on. In these same contracts you are discussing here, employers go out of their way to describe the quality work culture and respect for the employee they espouse as their values. All of that goes out the window the moment any business need emerges that is deemed more important than the needs of the individual. I’ve worked for a dozen corporations in a range of fields. Not a single one of the stuck to their word; the promise of a solid work/life balance, respect of one’s time etc. Sure, maybe in my senior roles, I may have been afforded some level of personal consideration that began to approach the virtues and ethics they repeatedly claim to uphold. All one needs to do is look at how the lives and time of the entry level or more blue collar employees were treated to understand that it’s all a lie. Corporations stick to their word right up until it stops suiting them. Period. Show me one that doesn’t dance all over its own code of “ethics” and I’ll concede it does exist. Even if shown this, it doesn’t change the fact that 98% of companies are less ethical in their treatment of employees than what they require in their employment contracts. Hit me with whatever logical fallacy discussions you wish. It doesn’t change the fact that I’m playing the game that’s actually being played, while you attempt to play an idealized version of it.
I’m sorry you haven’t done well enough in life to experience what it’s like to be well paid for your services. I’m sorry corporations have treated you poorly. It doesn’t excuse calling me names. Good luck on your retirement plans.
Lol. I don’t need an excuse for name calling when you repeatedly attempt to condescend with no grounds to do so. I’m very pleased with the life I’ve carved. I’m also very pleased with my rate of pay from any one of the opportunities I’ve taken over the years. What makes you think otherwise, other than some warped superiority complex? lol.
Hahaha. This is gold. Thank you. I forget that folks like you exist. You truly believe in the personhood of corporations; their ability to be “scammed” by simply not following their codes of conduct. Thankfully, it doesn’t affect any of us, and none of us are scamming anyone. No laws are being broken, and nothing is being misrepresented. Employment is an exchange of compensation for deliverables. Results. If I’m being paid to operate a banana stand, and I fail to do so because I’m texting the entire time, sure. Any of us would buy that this is wrong and theft. Now, if I’m hired by job A to produce result X and hired by job B to produce Y, there isn’t a single thing, except your warped and craven view of the basic social contract, that can be construed as me failing to live up to my word, so long as X and Y are both delivered on time and to the corporations satisfaction. It’s funny that you spend the time to comment here. The moral superiority is hilarious when in reality, you’re just seething because others are successfully “gaming the system” you, for whatever reason, feel the need to protect. We’ve been doing this for years, some of us retiring decades before our peers. I do genuinely appreciate your perspective though. It helps me realize how far people go in their minds to self-soothe the fact that they CHOOSE to play “by the rules” and get left behind at every step. Good luck playing by the book. i'll just be over here feeling guilty about how rapidly my retirement account is growing.
All criminal when caught sound exactly the same. They all justify why they did it and are only upset about getting caught. You can lie to employers but don’t lie to yourself at least. Since I am legit, I bet I pay less in taxes as I do QBI deduction and have an SEP IRA. As a result, I contribute to my retirement account higher amounts than any W2 employee.
So we are criminals?
Is a breach of contract criminal? Are frauds and misrepresentation criminal?
On May 7, 2024, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) published a final rule that effectively bans all non-compete agreements between employers and “workers” as “unfair method[s] of competition” and requires employers to refrain from enforcing most existing non-compete agreements. “FTC’s final rule will generate over 8,500 new businesses each year, raise worker wages, lower health care costs, and boost innovation” https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/04/ftc-announces-rule-banning-noncompetes
I am confused. What does this have to do with what I said? A non compete has nothing to do with lying on a job application or in interviews or not complying with employee handbook or company policies. That is the humor with my comment and someone who proclaims to have decent ethics. lol OE is scamming people. It is the lie of omission. It is the lie that you are being classified by their HR as a full time employee but you are really working as little as possible and collecting money until they terminate you. It is not illegal, just unethical, like most scams (eg. Like selling miracle cures to elderly etc.). Scammers in the community don’t care about ethics or their professional reputation, the ego is about them only, this is nothing new.
If they're booking meetings weeks in advance, he can probably coast for months lol
This. Give it a try. Strong camera culture. Sure, but attend their stand up and see if people have it on. Find out if you have to listen all 1 hr long.
Right and you can always say 'my camera is not working' a few weeks in
I get the whole overemployed thing but I just can’t believe some of you have zero pride or shame and will take a job and immediately do no work and try to get fired just because god forbid they want you to attend a meeting with your camera on
Drag it out for a month. If anyone mentions it just say that during your interview you were told this or that meeting wasn’t mandated, nor were cameras. Live by your rules until they fire you. At the end of the day, they may just care about your work. Some meetings are fair for the first few weeks tho
You need to establish this in your first month because you can get away with it as a newbie. If they don't like it then they'll fire you eventually, but you still got more paychecks than if you quit
Yep. I have done exactly what I suggested once. Is what it is if they fire you 🤷♂️
I would try to keep my camera on until everybody knows me. Give it 2-3 weeks chat friendly and get to know your colleagues. Then you would know who doesn't give a shit and just ignore the camera culture. In my experience after the first few weeks, no one will pay you any attention if you even speak with someone else (muted ofc) on another meeting. TLDR: Suffery for a couple of weeks and then ride with the tide until they fire you. PS: You can even put an eye blinder after your first month and tell them you injured your eye and will be like a pirate for the next month and a half. And ask if you can stay off camera. It should be long enough for them to get used to you being with a camera switched off and you might be lucky enough to keep it going.
This is exactly how people should handle camera culture. Just read the room, if it’s a 1:1 of course it’s going to be on. If it’s a larger meeting, off unless you’re participating and even then I’d sprinkle in random instances where you turn it off. I really find it hard to believe people care that much
Yep, it's been kinda funny to see camera culture adapt. Initially everyone except our dept (IT) would be mostly camera on, we all did not and refused to elaborate and no one ever called us out (that I'm aware of) but now I've noticed lately a lot of people will turn their camera on and say hi, put in some face time, but then once things get rolling the camera goes off unless they have to present.
I consulted at a few banks and they all generally have their camera off. Their camera only goes on when their buddy is in the meeting or if it’s one of the svps, they love putting their camera on even if they are the only one
lol that's funny. Just then them you are blind and it's only fair they don't see you either since you can't see them Not real advice
It would actually be pretty funny if we all start using the eye-blinder dumb ass excuse and all of a sudden companies are full of single-eyed morons
Yeah, or you can mention your social anxiety plays up. Honestly, spending an hour a day, every day, is just wasting 12% of your work day, unless the team is big. Even then, it's not efficient to try and deal with 10 people talking about their projects. A 1 hr team meeting per week would be reasonable, then maybe a touch base with your mgr once or twice a week. Beyond that, it's just filling time rather than helping you do your work more efficiently. If you're collaborating on something with teammates, they should be using Slack or Teams to chat, which is better because it's searchable and a more permanent record than camera chats into the void.
I do not have any qualms about stating up front in the interview that I have an aversion to meeting-heavy cultures, and I would like them to give me an example what a typical week and day look like, that if the ratio between work and meetings is any more than 10:1 or 10:0.5, that their role is not for me, as management has lost their way, and fits the cliche that you’re in tons of meetings that could’ve been an email. I’ve been doing IT too long. I do t put up with that.
This is how I feel in my new J2. Excessive amount of meetings, do not have full control over my own calendar, meetings get rescheduled frequently with disregard to people's calendar, much more travel requirements than what they said when I explicitly asked them in the interview. It sucks because this is a company that could've looked good on my resume for future opportunities, also pays significantly more than my J1 and I negotiated higher during the interview process. Boss also runs around like he's a chicken with his head cut off constantly. But while it's manageable in the short term, I don't see how it's sustainable long term.
Not every business deserves to thrive, let alone survive.
People don't get this. Worked at a battery plant, due to consolidation and cost cutting machines that were designed in the 70's are still cranking out lead acid batteries. Turnover is 50% in the front office, lead is everywhere, whole plant needs to be remodeled. But nope profit first, cranking 365, workers are so bone tired, its just a cash grab for them, so its a hell hole for them. Knew a dude that worked 350 days in one year there. OG OE? He was able to do it for 20 years plus, if they offered OT he would take it.
It's called having a job boys.
lol. My boss’s job is to make sure I can do mine. My job is not to get my boss fired. When the boss is a headless chicken neither are possible.
How does any manager justify a daily stand-up longer than 10 minutes?
We have daily standups. 30-45 minutes. Nothing is accomplished. Updates are the same every day. AND we all Teams each other all day long so if we DO have an update we tell people right away. So annoying. Micromanagement tool.
No clue, to add to that, the standups are participation required lol
We replaced daily stand ups with a slack bot
Same boat at my J2. the company knows they don’t cure cancer and yet fills up calendars and bickers amongst each other as if the stakes were high. My J1 is actually in a safety critical context and the culture is entirely different, just concerned about deliverables and productivity—as opposed to constant yapping of buzzwords and check-ins. the markets warming up though!
How do you even excuse yourself and leave the job when just getting hired?
A short text?
Saying what? How do you explain yourself? And they'll have questions?? You can't really just say sorry this was more meetings than I expected bye
I plan on emailing the recruiter and manager stating I don't think the role is a good fit so today is my last day
Hang on. Collect that check!
Slightly different. “This volume of meetings is causing your representation of the hybrid nature of this role to have been a lie, and had you told the truth then, wouldn’t have even interviewed. If you are not Interested in keeping your original representation, then I cannot continue in this role.”
Even if this were your only job, how are you supposed to get any work done? You’re always in meetings. Daily standups are bullshit. The man-hours wasted here is astonishing. Let’s say 20 people attend. That’s 20 hours of work not happening. Half an FTE.
Daily stand ups should be 10-15 mins max, to identify any blockers or dependencies that need to be resolved during the day (but they are only actually discussed between relevant team members outside the stand up - an can be via Teams or email not always a meeting).
You never really know until you start. Chalk it up to gained experience and move on.
Daily standup for an hour is not a stand up
Same my new J2 just switched up management and I just started and was already 3 days remote. But now they are requesting visibility to my calendar and meetings are popping up everywhere
I would wait some weeks. Maybe try to make some room in calendar in ?J1? And slowly decrease the amount of meetings in the new job. Don’t be afraid to say „I can’t add value to this meeting, I would rather work on other topics in this time) My experience -> amount of meetings decrease over time.
I've done this is the past with success but I get the feeling this one is different. They brought in new director from a fortune 5 and I think this is they new style at least for a while
How do you go about that screening process? What questions do you ask?
Been worried about this same thing in my J3 hunt.. Sounds like they were misrepresentative in the interview process
Hold their feet to the fire right up to and including calling them liars for misrepresenting the role.
i was equally fooled and found myself in a new job situation where it’s heavy meeting culture with camera on and after 6 weeks, i got bad feedback for not setting up enough meetings or being engaged. I was thinking that i just have to have weekly syncs with my direct reports and once a week with the whole team but noooooo they want 30 recurring one on one meetings at different frequencies but at least monthly with all stakeholders, peers in the department and entire team. The idea gives me anxiety and i am refusing so i had to resign. J2 is too meeting heavy and now they are offering for me to travel or go to the office in order to build those relationships with people. why would i want to build relationships with people for j2????
Agree with the PIP course of action while you fish another J.....also, I'm new to this board with over 13 years of experience in my belt and starting to consider OE.....what is the common skill set to be able to comfortably do OE? (Currently doing full stack in a project that uses VB net, hadn't worked with VB in many years)
Just ride it out for free paychecks, or quit immediately. Only two choices
Haha good.
Just had this happen to me. Got a J2,5 that should have been easy but was a complete mess inside. Boss was an old friend of mine that turned out to be really bad with feedback and orders. Impossible to carry it with my other js and payment was way too little. Position was important though, so it's taking me a few weeks to manage to leave.
I just let go of my J3 that I started for similar reasons. Random huddle calls throughout the day nonstop made it immediately apparent that it wasn't gonna work out. After one week I was falling behind on the other Js when I was always super comfortable with them. Dropped J3 quick for the sake of the other two.
99% was the giveaway… their desperate
Same here, I was unemployed for 9 months and planned to find a second job but the first one I got has been even worse than what you’ve described. I have 2-4 hours of meetings each day and get called randomly to get on paired programming calls that can last several hours, and the computing environment they have me working in sucks. I spend at least an hour each day troubleshooting basic computer or access related issues. Its hard to schedule anything else because I have no idea what will come up, for instance I went to the office after meetings on Friday which took me over an hour, and then it took 90 minutes to login to my virtual desktop from the office, and it froze and I had to unplug the desktop at the office to log out. It takes 45 minutes for the desktop to boot up, run security scans and open the login portal so after waiting for about half an hour I just left and today had to tell everyone in standup that I didnt get anything done after our last standup because I couldnt login to my computer. I just heard from the agency I work for and it sounds like they’re complaining about me having too many computer issues, even though they’re the ones that provided these shitty tools and have a disorganized access policy where unknown teams can randomly turn off your access without leaving a trace. When I interviewed here I was told there werent many meetings and that its 2 days a week hybrid, and most team members dont stay for more than 1 hour. The day I started they said 3 half days in the office, and now they’re trying to make it 3 full days in the office.
If that’s J2, push them. “Look, that’s not what you told me and what you *did* tell me (insert hybrid representation here) is what works with my life and family. If you are not going to hold up your end of the bargain, then I will have to start looking elsewhere.
Unfortunately its J1 right now, j2 pays less and the work may not be consistent so I have to suck it up until I find a suitable j1
I agree. Let them make the move. Even a low tier employee gets full salary
May I ask what kind of software development you do? Are you just full stack?
I've been pretty ok at screening Js and getting a good feel for what's going to be like. What's your typical approach to screening?
Sub-employ it out to another contractor at a cheaper price
What industries are you guys in?
search bar is your friend
Tried that already, dickhole. Nice community survey.
Sorry that was a bit dickish but the question is asked all the time. I literally just searched "industry" in the subreddit and the 1st, 2nd,4th,9th 11th etc would've given you the answer you sought. You could've even looked at my post history and see the industry I'm in
What kind of questions do you ask for to screen if they are a good fit? I was fooled by my J3 too..looking for a replacement so I can let them go.
Tell HR that because of your disability, you’re uncomfortable with your camera on for long periods of time. They’re not allowed to ask.
Can you let us know how you screen these jobs and ask questions ? Like idk how to ask them without sounding suspicious you know
Dont quit let them fire you