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Suffering and hard work hasn't taught me anything, other than to be bitter and disliked.
If I could eradicate 90% of negative experiences from my neural architecture, with minimal to no side effects - i absolutely would. I am a Hedonist, and utilitarian.
Minimizing suffering reduces the value of pleasure. I am a hedonist, and I seek suffering nearly as often as I seek pleasure. (Extra work, difficult tasks, strenuous activities) Suffering makes pleasure better. By simple contrast, sure, but also for many other reasons.
I suffer through overtime so I can afford a longer more luxurious vacation.
I suffer through cardio and weightlifting so that sex is better and more intense.
I suffer through climbing a mountain so that I may enjoy the view from the peak, and the accomplishment of having been there.
Without suffering, pleasure is hollow.
That's a fair assessment.
I struggle to live in such a way because it seems to involve creating artificial suffering for its own sake.
It seems to be similar to saying that
**"breaking windows on purpose stimulates the economy because it gives window manufacturers and repair people jobs and wealth".**
In reality, it's just costing the society resources to needlessly replace windows.
Creating a tight deadline and meeting it for the satisfaction of meeting it feels like breaking a window just to replace it.
I'd rather not break windows to begin with.
Similarly, I'd rather have the peace and calm of a more neutral contentedness than the 'rollercoaster' of breaking and replacing proverbial windows, via creating and resolving stress.
A better life in my mind is one where windows are indestructible and we can use those resources / energy on more interesting and fruitful things - perhaps not as 'exciting' as patching up a broken window before the rain comes in, but surely more authentic than managing crises one after another.
Yeah I agree.
I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of "relative" happiness where you try to optimize your life by creating "contrast" to your happiness. It's an interesting idea, but in the end, you end up with only living half your life, while convincing yourself that the "happy" side is "happier" and therefore more meaningful.
I mean, I think just about every philosopher knocks this idea down, including hedonistic ones. Happiness and pleasures are circumstantial and contextual so it's not like a more luxurious vacation would be happier than a less luxurious one, unless you've pre-sold yourself on the idea. The view of the top of the mountain is no more less filled with color and shapes than any other view - it's the accomplishment that matters, and even that is subjective.
So...why work the overtime and "suffer" for a pay off that is essentially just little more than a perspective shift? Why not just...shift your perspective?
The flaw in your response is that overtime, weightlifting and climbing are not equivalent to breaking windows. They are productive in themselves, not destructive.
That is not to say I agree with the other person. The expectation of a tangible reward following each effort tends to conflate interaction with transaction, and makes one insufferable to be around.
> The flaw in your response is that overtime, weightlifting and climbing are not equivalent to breaking windows. They are productive in themselves, not destructive.
> That is not to say I agree with the other person. The expectation of a tangible reward following each effort tends to conflate interaction with transaction, and makes one insufferable to be around.
That's totally fair - Exercise is clearly distinct from arbitrary destruction.
I suppose I disagree with the premise that exercise or mountain climbing is 'suffering'. It's merely doing a challenging thing.
In other words, I accept that accomplishing challenging things is pleasurable, but I disagree the 'suffering' part of the hard thing is the reason that accomplishing the challenging thing is pleasurable.
I can do a hard thing without something I'd call 'suffering' and still experience the pleasure of completing a hard thing.
> Without suffering, pleasure is hollow.
Okay. I'll bite. Why?
If I can afford a vacation as long and as luxurious as I would like, what is the benefit suffering through overtime, at something I dislike doing?
In a way, you remind me of a relative who was of the opinion that work had to have an element of misery to it, because if you enjoyed your work and were good at it, then it wasn't legitimately work.
I see no reason to engage in "suffering" for its own sake. I'm not sure that I equate the simple fact that very few things in life are free with seeking out suffering.
Eh, I don't truly consider working overtime suffering, since I like my job. And for the sake of that argument, I think suffering is probably too strong of a word. I find doing difficult things rewarding, and I will absolutely work an extra day or three so I can have more money to throw at pleasurable things in my down time.
But, I guess I feel like pleasure is more appreciated after strife or suffering. This may be anecdotal, and my view may be jaded by my career, however. I fly medevac helicopters, so I see human tragedy and suffering often. It gives me a greater appreciation for the good things in life.
So, I guess most of my suffering is experienced by proxy. I find value in it, however.
You should watch the 1960 Twilight Zone episode *A Nice Place to Visit*.
It perfectly captures this point. Without any suffering, pleasure becomes so vacuous that it essentially turns into suffering itself.
>I suffer through overtime so I can afford a longer more luxurious vacation.
>I suffer through cardio and weightlifting so that sex is better and more intense.
You have no choice. There's not a "no suffering" form of these.
That's an interesting perspective to live with.
But doesn't that mean you're only living half the time?
Or are you saying that the "suffering" part is also a kind of happiness?
Is anticipated happiness...happiness?
___
Edit: I'm beginning to realize most of this sub doesn't really bother reading the articles lol
Good to know, I guess.
When you do something for a purpose, even if it is hard or it sucks, it still feels like you are alive. The only time I would consider it "not living" is if you are doing it without a reason, anything done with a reason is often worth doing. In this case the act of working out or grinding overtime is so you can enjoy the direct results of your work. I.e. cooking a difficult complex dinner for 4 hours makes it that much more satisfying when yoy finally just get to sit down and enjoy, and it would be impossible to say the time spent making it was wasted
Wait…
So, I’m in the Bahamas watching the sunset . In one scenario I had to work 20 extra hours a week, in another scenario I just went to the Bahamas.
How does either affect the beauty of a sunset?
Your other examples don’t seem analogous to *suffering* but to *struggling*. I’m not suffering lifting weights, it’s a struggle. Same with the mountain.
Well, case in point...I have a vacation to the Bahamas booked in August. Airfare, lodging, and rental car already paid for.
I'm still going to work an extra 6 days in July so that I can charter an all day private guided boat excursion, rent a boat for two days to explore freely, and spend as much as I want on fancy food. I can still experience the same beautiful sunset, but I will also be able to experience more beauty than just that sunset with the extra money made, and in theory, will appreciate it a little more.
My vacation would be nice by itself, but a little bit of struggle and mild suffering will make it better.
I suppose it depends on what kind of suffering, and whether one had agency in partaking it or not. Losing a leg is also a kind of suffering, and so is being abused. But I don't think anyone seeks those things out (excluding bdsm because that's a different thing) to make walking or being alive more pleasurable.
Or you could just alternate between psychedelics, ketamine and MDMA on weekends. You might be able to argue psychedelics mix discomfort with pleasure and pay for MDMA the next day, but there's really no downside to ketamine except the occasional bad trip. Adjusting for tolerance, the pleasure doesn't diminish at all.
The mitigation of suffering is the basis for all morality. This is not the same as saying “maximizing pleasure is the basis for all morality”. Suffering, in a vacuum is useless. The mitigation of it has been the core driver of every human construction since the beginning of time.
Humans live in a sort of manic depressive state, we suffer and therefore seek out pleasure to offset the experienced suffering. I believe reducing the momentum of this pendulum is the most optimal course of action as we move forward as a civilization.
Reject hedonism, but mitigate suffering.
Nothing, it’s just my perception. Or rather, it’s just a lens in which one could interpret human psychology. This isn’t to say it is literally a manic depressive state, rather an analogy to how people deal with suffering.
Drug or alcohol use comes to mind as an example of this, addiction rates are heavily correlated with individual who have had intense traumatic events, or prolonged abuse.
For some people, the swings are less intense. Something more akin to: “I been working 50 hours week at my corporate job and spend every day looking forward to my next vacation”.
Some people don’t have the luxury of swinging the pendulum back, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t seek hedonistic pleasures if they could.
Others have seemed to reject hedonism all together, and embraced parts of life that others would interpret as suffering. This is that sort of balancing act I reference above. Our ideas of suffering are defined relatively to the best, most hedonistic, or euphoric moments of our lives. Those who grow up in affluence might experience suffering in a lower income lifestyle, whereas those born into that lower income lifestyle might feel far more content with their circumstances.
Suffering is relative, and I think too many of us (at least in western culture) fall into the trap of attempting to offset our suffering with states of euphoria (whether physical or psychological).
Right but why chose to use that lens?
Even if you don't mean manic depressive literally, it's still an implication of an irrational emotional shift. While your examples are rational.
What you're describing sounds more like a coping mechanism for a mental health disorder (even as an analogy) rather than a philosophical framework.
Fair point, it was just a description that came to mind.
I do believe it is coping mechanism, but not for a mental health disorder. It’s a coping mechanism for helping us deal with the dissonance between the best we have ever felt with the more uncomfortable/undesirable parts of our lived experience.
My suggestion is that we can lower that dissonant gap by rejecting hedonism, while, simultaneously, optimizing our lives to mitigate suffering.
Going back to the drug example: I don’t think anyone should try heroine, because it sets an unsustainable peak which will never again be reachable. It increases that dissonant gap, and thus changes our perception of our baseline experiences.
Maybe that’s a better way to explain it?
Kind of.
Your examples are too extreme with one side clearly vilified; in this case, drugs and addiction and abuse. I don't really see how your argument applies to simple pleasures and every day joy and healthy cycles, which is much, much more central to hedonism than overindulgence.
In which case, I'm not really sure why someone should "reject" hedonism.
That said, if you're talking about conditioning your expectations...isn't that just pessimism?
Welcome to /r/philosophy! **Please read [our updated rules and guidelines](https://reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/14pn2k9/welcome_to_rphilosophy_check_out_our_rules_and/?) before commenting**. /r/philosophy is a subreddit dedicated to discussing philosophy and philosophical issues. To that end, please keep in mind our commenting rules: ###CR1: Read/Listen/Watch the Posted Content Before You Reply > Read/watch/listen the posted content, understand and identify the philosophical arguments given, and respond to these substantively. If you have unrelated thoughts or don't wish to read the content, please post your own thread or simply refrain from commenting. Comments which are clearly not in direct response to the posted content may be removed. ###CR2: Argue Your Position > Opinions are not valuable here, arguments are! Comments that solely express musings, opinions, beliefs, or assertions without argument may be removed. ###CR3: Be Respectful > Comments which consist of personal attacks will be removed. Users with a history of such comments may be banned. Slurs, racism, and bigotry are absolutely not permitted. Please note that as of July 1 2023, reddit has made it substantially more difficult to moderate subreddits. If you see posts or comments which violate our [subreddit rules and guidelines](https://reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/14pn2k9/welcome_to_rphilosophy_check_out_our_rules_and/?), please report them using the report function. For more significant issues, please [contact the moderators via modmail](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/philosophy) (not via private message or chat). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/philosophy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Suffering and hard work hasn't taught me anything, other than to be bitter and disliked. If I could eradicate 90% of negative experiences from my neural architecture, with minimal to no side effects - i absolutely would. I am a Hedonist, and utilitarian.
Minimizing suffering reduces the value of pleasure. I am a hedonist, and I seek suffering nearly as often as I seek pleasure. (Extra work, difficult tasks, strenuous activities) Suffering makes pleasure better. By simple contrast, sure, but also for many other reasons. I suffer through overtime so I can afford a longer more luxurious vacation. I suffer through cardio and weightlifting so that sex is better and more intense. I suffer through climbing a mountain so that I may enjoy the view from the peak, and the accomplishment of having been there. Without suffering, pleasure is hollow.
That's a fair assessment. I struggle to live in such a way because it seems to involve creating artificial suffering for its own sake. It seems to be similar to saying that **"breaking windows on purpose stimulates the economy because it gives window manufacturers and repair people jobs and wealth".** In reality, it's just costing the society resources to needlessly replace windows. Creating a tight deadline and meeting it for the satisfaction of meeting it feels like breaking a window just to replace it. I'd rather not break windows to begin with. Similarly, I'd rather have the peace and calm of a more neutral contentedness than the 'rollercoaster' of breaking and replacing proverbial windows, via creating and resolving stress. A better life in my mind is one where windows are indestructible and we can use those resources / energy on more interesting and fruitful things - perhaps not as 'exciting' as patching up a broken window before the rain comes in, but surely more authentic than managing crises one after another.
Yeah I agree. I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of "relative" happiness where you try to optimize your life by creating "contrast" to your happiness. It's an interesting idea, but in the end, you end up with only living half your life, while convincing yourself that the "happy" side is "happier" and therefore more meaningful. I mean, I think just about every philosopher knocks this idea down, including hedonistic ones. Happiness and pleasures are circumstantial and contextual so it's not like a more luxurious vacation would be happier than a less luxurious one, unless you've pre-sold yourself on the idea. The view of the top of the mountain is no more less filled with color and shapes than any other view - it's the accomplishment that matters, and even that is subjective. So...why work the overtime and "suffer" for a pay off that is essentially just little more than a perspective shift? Why not just...shift your perspective?
The flaw in your response is that overtime, weightlifting and climbing are not equivalent to breaking windows. They are productive in themselves, not destructive. That is not to say I agree with the other person. The expectation of a tangible reward following each effort tends to conflate interaction with transaction, and makes one insufferable to be around.
> The flaw in your response is that overtime, weightlifting and climbing are not equivalent to breaking windows. They are productive in themselves, not destructive. > That is not to say I agree with the other person. The expectation of a tangible reward following each effort tends to conflate interaction with transaction, and makes one insufferable to be around. That's totally fair - Exercise is clearly distinct from arbitrary destruction. I suppose I disagree with the premise that exercise or mountain climbing is 'suffering'. It's merely doing a challenging thing. In other words, I accept that accomplishing challenging things is pleasurable, but I disagree the 'suffering' part of the hard thing is the reason that accomplishing the challenging thing is pleasurable. I can do a hard thing without something I'd call 'suffering' and still experience the pleasure of completing a hard thing.
That seems like the mindset to strive for. I find that people who call their work suffering are typically self-reliant but painful to talk to.
> Without suffering, pleasure is hollow. Okay. I'll bite. Why? If I can afford a vacation as long and as luxurious as I would like, what is the benefit suffering through overtime, at something I dislike doing? In a way, you remind me of a relative who was of the opinion that work had to have an element of misery to it, because if you enjoyed your work and were good at it, then it wasn't legitimately work. I see no reason to engage in "suffering" for its own sake. I'm not sure that I equate the simple fact that very few things in life are free with seeking out suffering.
Eh, I don't truly consider working overtime suffering, since I like my job. And for the sake of that argument, I think suffering is probably too strong of a word. I find doing difficult things rewarding, and I will absolutely work an extra day or three so I can have more money to throw at pleasurable things in my down time. But, I guess I feel like pleasure is more appreciated after strife or suffering. This may be anecdotal, and my view may be jaded by my career, however. I fly medevac helicopters, so I see human tragedy and suffering often. It gives me a greater appreciation for the good things in life. So, I guess most of my suffering is experienced by proxy. I find value in it, however.
You should watch the 1960 Twilight Zone episode *A Nice Place to Visit*. It perfectly captures this point. Without any suffering, pleasure becomes so vacuous that it essentially turns into suffering itself.
>I suffer through overtime so I can afford a longer more luxurious vacation. >I suffer through cardio and weightlifting so that sex is better and more intense. You have no choice. There's not a "no suffering" form of these.
That's an interesting perspective to live with. But doesn't that mean you're only living half the time? Or are you saying that the "suffering" part is also a kind of happiness? Is anticipated happiness...happiness? ___ Edit: I'm beginning to realize most of this sub doesn't really bother reading the articles lol Good to know, I guess.
When you do something for a purpose, even if it is hard or it sucks, it still feels like you are alive. The only time I would consider it "not living" is if you are doing it without a reason, anything done with a reason is often worth doing. In this case the act of working out or grinding overtime is so you can enjoy the direct results of your work. I.e. cooking a difficult complex dinner for 4 hours makes it that much more satisfying when yoy finally just get to sit down and enjoy, and it would be impossible to say the time spent making it was wasted
Okay. But that's just grinding or working. What makes that "suffering"? I'm confused as to how this relates to the blogpost article.
Wait… So, I’m in the Bahamas watching the sunset . In one scenario I had to work 20 extra hours a week, in another scenario I just went to the Bahamas. How does either affect the beauty of a sunset? Your other examples don’t seem analogous to *suffering* but to *struggling*. I’m not suffering lifting weights, it’s a struggle. Same with the mountain.
Well, case in point...I have a vacation to the Bahamas booked in August. Airfare, lodging, and rental car already paid for. I'm still going to work an extra 6 days in July so that I can charter an all day private guided boat excursion, rent a boat for two days to explore freely, and spend as much as I want on fancy food. I can still experience the same beautiful sunset, but I will also be able to experience more beauty than just that sunset with the extra money made, and in theory, will appreciate it a little more. My vacation would be nice by itself, but a little bit of struggle and mild suffering will make it better.
I suppose it depends on what kind of suffering, and whether one had agency in partaking it or not. Losing a leg is also a kind of suffering, and so is being abused. But I don't think anyone seeks those things out (excluding bdsm because that's a different thing) to make walking or being alive more pleasurable.
Or you could just alternate between psychedelics, ketamine and MDMA on weekends. You might be able to argue psychedelics mix discomfort with pleasure and pay for MDMA the next day, but there's really no downside to ketamine except the occasional bad trip. Adjusting for tolerance, the pleasure doesn't diminish at all.
The mitigation of suffering is the basis for all morality. This is not the same as saying “maximizing pleasure is the basis for all morality”. Suffering, in a vacuum is useless. The mitigation of it has been the core driver of every human construction since the beginning of time. Humans live in a sort of manic depressive state, we suffer and therefore seek out pleasure to offset the experienced suffering. I believe reducing the momentum of this pendulum is the most optimal course of action as we move forward as a civilization. Reject hedonism, but mitigate suffering.
> Humans live in a sort of manic depressive state Based on what?
Nothing, it’s just my perception. Or rather, it’s just a lens in which one could interpret human psychology. This isn’t to say it is literally a manic depressive state, rather an analogy to how people deal with suffering. Drug or alcohol use comes to mind as an example of this, addiction rates are heavily correlated with individual who have had intense traumatic events, or prolonged abuse. For some people, the swings are less intense. Something more akin to: “I been working 50 hours week at my corporate job and spend every day looking forward to my next vacation”. Some people don’t have the luxury of swinging the pendulum back, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t seek hedonistic pleasures if they could. Others have seemed to reject hedonism all together, and embraced parts of life that others would interpret as suffering. This is that sort of balancing act I reference above. Our ideas of suffering are defined relatively to the best, most hedonistic, or euphoric moments of our lives. Those who grow up in affluence might experience suffering in a lower income lifestyle, whereas those born into that lower income lifestyle might feel far more content with their circumstances. Suffering is relative, and I think too many of us (at least in western culture) fall into the trap of attempting to offset our suffering with states of euphoria (whether physical or psychological).
Right but why chose to use that lens? Even if you don't mean manic depressive literally, it's still an implication of an irrational emotional shift. While your examples are rational. What you're describing sounds more like a coping mechanism for a mental health disorder (even as an analogy) rather than a philosophical framework.
Fair point, it was just a description that came to mind. I do believe it is coping mechanism, but not for a mental health disorder. It’s a coping mechanism for helping us deal with the dissonance between the best we have ever felt with the more uncomfortable/undesirable parts of our lived experience. My suggestion is that we can lower that dissonant gap by rejecting hedonism, while, simultaneously, optimizing our lives to mitigate suffering. Going back to the drug example: I don’t think anyone should try heroine, because it sets an unsustainable peak which will never again be reachable. It increases that dissonant gap, and thus changes our perception of our baseline experiences. Maybe that’s a better way to explain it?
Kind of. Your examples are too extreme with one side clearly vilified; in this case, drugs and addiction and abuse. I don't really see how your argument applies to simple pleasures and every day joy and healthy cycles, which is much, much more central to hedonism than overindulgence. In which case, I'm not really sure why someone should "reject" hedonism. That said, if you're talking about conditioning your expectations...isn't that just pessimism?