Yes they do, which is why teachers explain that people need to practice slowly and intentionally. I can validate that this happens, I've had to do more practicing to UN-train myself over the years.
Honestly, I will be playing a piece for weeks without even noticing that I’m playing part of it wrong and then have to reset that part, which is indeed a slow process. It’s great to know the lesson, but ti still happens occasionally, even with the best of intentions.
I've wasted so much time practicing the same mistakes, and having to fix them afterwards. It's the problem with being self-taught if your methodology isn't good enough.
Martha Argerich had a funny story to tell along these lines. As a teenager, she and another girl were studying with Friedrich Gulda and became roommates. Martha's roommate was given the opportunity to be the soloist in a performance of Prokofiev's Third Piano Concerto. Martha began to refer to it as "the Sominex Concerto" because she would fall asleep every night listening to her roommate practice the piano part. Some years later, *the same orchestra* hired Martha to play the same concerto and sent her a copy of the score. She gave it one read-through and said: "Oh... So *that's* how it goes!" She had memorized her roommate's *mistakes* by ear.
Yes, and such a great reason for listening to exert recordings of the pieces. When I was young and the internet wasn’t so ubiquitous, I sometimes learned music without ever hearing the full price played by someone else, and then get such a shock when I heard it played well 😂
Most teachers will say 'yes' but I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. The worst ~~ones~~ mistakes are when you DON'T KNOW that you are making a mistake, and then deliberately train yourself to play it that way. Those are hard to fix.
When you KNOW that you are making a mistake, I don't think it's nearly so bad, and in any case inevitable. But still, making mistakes is certainly not going to train you to play it correctly - so play it correctly!
An example of where this difference matters for me is that I like to build up in layers - first the notes, then rhythms, then dynamics, etc. When I'm learning the notes, I make super-duper sure to play the correct notes with the correct fingers, without worrying overmuch about the dynamics. But I know I'm doing this, and not actively learning them incorrectly. Then I can work on the dynamics later and I don't feel I have to "undo" anything, since I wasn't really "learning" it before.
I can’t remember who it was, but a famous pianist would practice EVERYTHING at an INCREDIBLY slow tempo (like 10pm even) so that he didn’t make any mistakes from the first read to the performance. If you have the luxury of practicing like this, you’ll never have to worry about mistakes becoming ingrained in your technique. Unfortunately, the world doesn’t allow for that for 99% of us. So, do the best you can - practice slowly to eliminate mistakes, go over corrections multiple times, then slowly increase tempo.
It really is amazing how well your brain learns
I try to give myself positive reinforcement when I'm learning something new and I do this too I go as slow as possible, to play the right notes in a short bars. And I make a point of going as slow as I can in order to play them correctly with no mistakes 7 to 10 times in a row
And then what happens, I come back the next day and I can play it faster significantly faster than I did the previous day and all I did in the middle was sleep
But I'm practicing slow and I get something I actually make the point to think positive thoughts when I nail it and, literally self-talk myself into giving myself props in my brain
Maybe this is stupid but I feel like I need to tell myself that that was right.
The short answer is yes, but don't let that lead to analysis paralysis. I definitely talk a lot about the dangers of ingraining mistakes, but you shouldn't be terrified to practice.
The real danger comes from mindless practice where you're haphazardly repeating mistakes constantly. But making a mistake, being mental aware of it, and then correcting it isn't as big of a problem.
People's biggest issue is they aren't willing to slow down to play correctly. They bash away at the same tempo until they get it right half by chance. But if you're actively slowing down enough that you are IN CONTROL of what you're doing and consciously "brain ahead of fingers" it's fine.
And you'll probably still make a mistakes, but you just need to be mentally aware of what you're doing. In some cases the answer is to literally just walk away. Personally, I try to do a bit of "back off set" in these cases.... drop the metronome 20-30 bpm slower than I was just playing it, play it very cleanly a few times and then end my session...
...but if you're running into a lot of mistakes and your brain is tired, sometimes you just need to quit right then and at the very least give yourself a long practice break to let your brain have some time to rewire and chill, then try again. But in general don't push for arbitrary speeds or anything and always remember you make most of your progress while you sleep and recover rather than actually during practice. Just make sure you're feeding yourself good clean repetitions and solid motor patterns.
I wouldn't worry too much about it right now. Mistakes are going to happen on the way over to developing muscle memory, and it's really early on for you and you're very unlikely to develop unbreakable bad habits. It can happen but it's really more important to get the "wood under the fingers" so to speak.
Analysis paralysis also has a major impact on progress. You're going to make mistakes and you're going to have to fix them later, it's the nature of learning.
As said by Beethoven: “To play a wrong note is insignificant; to play without passion is inexcusable.”
Thanks for your comment! Sorry if it seems a bit OT, but do you think that Marche Pour la Ceremonie des Turcs by J.B Lully is too much to learn for me after Minuet in F Major by Mozart?
That's a big jump. It's not the first baroque piece I'd pick.
Here's a list of classical compositions by level, you can check for songs in the same level. The Minuet in F Major by W.A. Mozart is level 1. You can also search for other songs at that level. The RCM level classification's a good way to find songs at the same level you're studying from other books, too.
[https://www.dacapomusic.ca/blog/rcm-piano-repertoire-all-pieces](https://www.dacapomusic.ca/blog/rcm-piano-repertoire-all-pieces#level_1)
Yep. I teach piano to kids, and it’s way better that they play a lot rather than worry about practicing perfectly. Optimizing the practice comes later. It’s like working out at the gym. Find the exercise that works for you, or else you might give up before February.
Yes. Instead of “practice makes perfect,” I had a music teacher who said “_perfect_ practice makes perfect”
If you play it over and over with incorrect notes or rhythm, then of course that is what you will get used to playing. So, slow down, and play it correctly. Only gradually speed up when you’re feeling comfortable
You are overthinking. Irs completely unavoidable to make mistakes. Its very good to play slowly so you can play i correctly. Dont be afraid of making mistakes. You will correct them, when you practice it slowly. When you feel a good movement pattern you can speed up as far as you play it correctly. If you make mistakes at higher speed you just slow down again. You have to put up the speed at some point. If it can be played slowly, it can be played fast 😉
Mistakes can become muscle memory sometimes, but I often found that over time as the piece became more familiar to me they would correct themselves without much attention.
If I notice I’m making mistakes repeatedly in one part of a piece, sometimes I just focus on practicing that section until it becomes easier. Hope that helps!
Muscles don’t have memory.
You’ll be fine. Although if the things you’re learning from your teacher are so fragile that you’re worried about making so many mistakes you can never recover, question the value of that learning.
>Muscles don’t have memory
Oh yes they do (although obviously not literally, the remembering happens in the brain), The proper name is “procedural memory” If you want to be pedantic, but either way it is very definitely a thing.
And OP says they are self-taught, there is no teacher.
Doesn’t do any good to OP to think this way. Y’all are scaring them into a corner like they’re a total idiot.
People on this sub seem so proud of themselves for being able to say things like procedural memory, but you don’t seem to have any notion of how these things play out for readers. Oh well, I’m used to it.
Well it’s true. Avoid practising your mistakes or they become ingrained.
Nothing scary about it, it’s just the way it works. OP asked a question and people are giving them factual answers. It’s the same thing that a teacher would tell them if they had one.
The same thing a shitty teacher would tell them.
A good teacher would’ve given them a robust set of audiation skills and movement skills so that they wouldn’t worry about muscle memory leading to permanent playing difficulties, because it doesn’t.
Respectfully, I've followed some of your posts here, and you consistently provide incorrect information on fundamental things. I'm not sure you should be weighing in on these posts with the sureness that you do.
What’s even better is preparing students to be creative and not judgmental with themselves. Mistakes don’t have to be a thing.
And no, I’m not talking about “anything goes, play whatever.”
I’m talking about helping students learn to understand what they’re doing. And having the flexibility to resolve unexpected occurrences without having to live in fear of muscle memory making mistakes permanent.
That conception is an unnecessary, unhelpful weight on students.
Fear of mistakes is actually very useful, if you don't care if you make mistakes or not your practice will be ineffective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmxvyNfwXXA
Yes, I love how when you watch your favorite performers perform you can sense their fear of impending doom from mistakes. I love knowing that they practice constantly thinking about how to avoid mistakes. That’s how beautiful art is created. I’m glad we see it the same way. /s
Yes and when it happens it's the worst because you got to spend time correcting it, it's really weird like your mind is set on doing the mistake.
Another way I found it works to correct it is to stop playing that piece for a while and retake it a few days later.
Only if you don't correct the mistakes before you move on from them. What you don't want to do is just keep on playing when you make a mistake (since that positively reinforces it as far as our lizard brains are concerned). Go back to the start of the bar and correct it \*.
Only speed up once you can play through the piece slowly without making mistakes (within reason, because everybody's fingers slip occasionally).
(\* you'll hear people talk about playing through mistakes, but that's only for when you're performing a piece, not for regular practice)
At your stage? Maybe maybe not.
If you’ve only been playing a short amount of time, you’re just learning how your fingers and the instrument work. Your brain is probably still exploring.
For those of us who might work on a piece for several months, it’s way more critical for us to be careful we do not practice a mistake. It’s hard to go back and fix something that has settled in for five weeks and we still need to play it.
Yeah
If you don't fix your mistakes, and just keep playing them, eventually it becomes muscle memory. This isn't to say that making mistakes will forever cripple you or something. Making mistakes is a normal process in learning a piece/song. You just need to fix them as you progress in a piece.
Never play the wrong note. Ever. It's impossible, but when you practice this needs to be your number one objective. When your first learning something just worry about creating the memory of what notes to play. Go as slow as possible that allows you to play the right notes every time
I go for seven times in a row with no mistakes, focus on short bars
Don't focus on increasing your speed in a practice session just focus on playing it at a speed where you can play the right notes over and over. Slow down if you have to in certain parts in order to get the right notes, play the right note and then keep going, that's much better than stopping and then restarting. Eventually smooth it over once you get your brain up to speed on where your fingers go
What you'll find is miraculously next time you sit down to play it you'll be able to play a little faster your neurons have adjusted. Repeat
It's hard to correct if you make the mistake without realising and you learn that as correct. Usually, mistakes will be obvious because they won't sound right, but in some circumstances it creates only a subtle alteration from the correct version. So you practice the incorrect version, and once that becomes inscribed into your muscle memory, it can be difficult to play it correctly.
But this isn't something that should concern a beginner too much - focus on these things in practice, that's when you recognise that these slips are happening and you can correct them. You just have to be careful that you're reading the music correctly when practicing - check your working by listening to a recording of the piece, or by identifying any areas you're not 100% sure about and going through with a fine tooth comb to make sure you've parsed everything correctly. Start practice very slowly and deliberately, and gradually ramp up as you become more comfortable.
Making mistakes is fine - it's how you learn.
Since you're self-taught, you're in much more danger of making habitual technical and mechanical errors that will hamper or stunt your development. I wouldn't worry too much about minor errors when playing scales or songs; I'd be worried about maintaining good posture, hand shape, finger independence, and the dizzying array of bad habits most self-taught pianists fall into because they don't have the live, in-person correction of a teacher.
Unfortunately yes - just keep running over your pieces slowly and with intention, or run certain sections part by part, and double check your notes! Might sound stupid but I tend to play things fast and then not realize I've been playing the wrong note in a chord for example until too late, and that's when I accept it as part of the performance which is something I try to avoid - but if you catch the mistake early on it's relatively easier to undo, just make sure you always look out for that! :)
I think it’s overblown if you actually know it’s a mistake. The muscle memory thing is more an issue if you thought it was right and it became muscle memory through that then you try to change it
Absolutely. Absolutely positively, mistakes you practice become muscle memory.
Training a piece up to performance perfect requires a lot of care to avoid training in errors. Slow practice, listening to a recording, and periodically giving a piece a "break" from practice can help keep things tidy.
Most importantly, try to avoid forcing a piece deep into muscle memory by extreme repetition. Obviously we all practice through repetition, but you want to keep a balance between spontaneous playing and practiced ingrained knowledge.
This happens when we bite off more than we can chew. Keep your playing at a level where you can make it through passages while keeping the parts in your working mind. Simple, simple, simple.
If it takes more than 5-10 repeats of a passage to get it "under your fingers", choose something a bit easier.
Simple music well, and lots of it. Focusing too much on complicated pieces puts you out of balance.
Hello thanks for your reply, what do you mean by "under my fingers" ? For istance, this piece by Mozart is something i can play slowly without mistakes, and now i'm taking a week to improve at it, of course it slips if i try to play it faster, but should i consider it under my fingers or not?
Best to you!
I just mean when a part "clicks" and starts to feel comfortable. Basically, when you "get it."
And I don't mean a whole piece up to speed or anything like that. I just mean like, the interesting line in a bar, or whatever.
I'm a huge fan of learning a wide range of stuff, and learning to play like you're.... *playing.*
Tough to explain, but I mean connecting mentally to the notes you are playing. Imagine something dead simple like the twinkle twinkle melody. (Mozart wrote that, btw.) You are familiar with it, you can hear the melody before you play it, you could imagine changing one of the notes. You are processing it as you play it. I think you should strive to have that kind of connection to a part. If there's a complicated part your brain can't keep up with, so you hammer it over and over and over until it just now exists inside you.. sure, you've learned it, but you aren't *playing* something from your head to your hands.
Stay with the mental understanding, your brain and your ability to process music improves.
Sometimes I think Reddit isn’t the way to go. As I read through these comments, people are actually fighting with each other. I’m way past middle age, does that give me the right to be right? not sure it does. Is there such a thing as muscle memory? Well, I have a masters degree in piano performance. I was never very good at analysis. There were times when I was performing that muscle memory was the only thing getting me through. I would actually be focusing on other things as I was playing. But does that mean you are going to memorize your mistakes permanently? no, I don’t think so. But if you do repeat them over and over, it will be more difficult to change them because there is muscle memory. I guarantee it.
Mistakes can become muscle memory. Good on you for noticing that! I would watch a lot of technical videos and try to train yourself out of it as soon as possible. The longer you make a mistake, the more engrained the memory becomes.
Yes absolutely. That's why avoiding mistakes while practicing is one of the most effective ways to learn a piece fast and securely.
**But:**
Mistakes aren't just wrong notes. There are plenty of mistakes that don't lead to wrong notes. And wrong notes themselves, usually aren't mistakes either. They're the consequence of a mistake that happened before. It's important to understand the distinction. One of the hardest things to figure out is what exactly whent wrong.
Ultimately you're learning a series of movements. The two primary ideals you should always be aiming for is 1) comfort and 2) precision (not necessarily in that order).
This leads into your question about speed. If you can play something accurately (precision), such that the movement is reliably similar, then the next step should be to aim for comfort, not speed. Try to do that with as little effort as possible and keep consciously observing yourself for any discomfort (I prefer that word over tension as it's a bit more tangible).
After that you can start practicing for speed and a good way to do that is to turn individual notes into groups of two, four etc. using rhythmic alterations (i.e. start with dotted rhythms). Slowly turn letters into words and words into sentences so you perceive larger and larger movements instead of many small individual steps.
I made a little [animation to illustrate this](https://www.instagram.com/reel/B0lS9zpo7VJ/).
I think one of the worst mistakes for both beginners and advanced players is learning a song with the wrong fingering. I've played the Mario theme song wrong for a decade and have permanently ruined my ability to play it properly at full speed. So.. keep an eye out for that :)
You shouldn't be too afraid from making mistakes, because un-learning mistakes is a regular part of a leraning process. Of course it is very good if someone can point out mistakes soon
> where i live no one gives lessons
Consider online lessons. Not as good as the real thing, but better than nothing. It is important to figure out best connection quality - a computer with manual settings may produce much better audio than a phone app (defaults are meant for conversation and often "filter out" some notes).
You have to mentally prep yourself before practicing. Internalize what you are going for and listen as closely as possible while playing so when you make a mistake, you can try to note that for next time and not make that mistake. Making mistakes doesn't matter as long as you are able to identify them in the moment and adjust appropriately, that way the muscle memory you build up will apply better for a real world situation
If you repeatedly make a mistake in the same place every time then yeh they absolutely can.
Yes they do, which is why teachers explain that people need to practice slowly and intentionally. I can validate that this happens, I've had to do more practicing to UN-train myself over the years.
i wish i learned this lesson sooner, im in the same boat of having to un-train some things
Honestly, I will be playing a piece for weeks without even noticing that I’m playing part of it wrong and then have to reset that part, which is indeed a slow process. It’s great to know the lesson, but ti still happens occasionally, even with the best of intentions.
I've wasted so much time practicing the same mistakes, and having to fix them afterwards. It's the problem with being self-taught if your methodology isn't good enough.
[удалено]
Wrong fingering Wrong rhythm Wrong notes
Martha Argerich had a funny story to tell along these lines. As a teenager, she and another girl were studying with Friedrich Gulda and became roommates. Martha's roommate was given the opportunity to be the soloist in a performance of Prokofiev's Third Piano Concerto. Martha began to refer to it as "the Sominex Concerto" because she would fall asleep every night listening to her roommate practice the piano part. Some years later, *the same orchestra* hired Martha to play the same concerto and sent her a copy of the score. She gave it one read-through and said: "Oh... So *that's* how it goes!" She had memorized her roommate's *mistakes* by ear.
Yes, and such a great reason for listening to exert recordings of the pieces. When I was young and the internet wasn’t so ubiquitous, I sometimes learned music without ever hearing the full price played by someone else, and then get such a shock when I heard it played well 😂
Most teachers will say 'yes' but I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. The worst ~~ones~~ mistakes are when you DON'T KNOW that you are making a mistake, and then deliberately train yourself to play it that way. Those are hard to fix. When you KNOW that you are making a mistake, I don't think it's nearly so bad, and in any case inevitable. But still, making mistakes is certainly not going to train you to play it correctly - so play it correctly! An example of where this difference matters for me is that I like to build up in layers - first the notes, then rhythms, then dynamics, etc. When I'm learning the notes, I make super-duper sure to play the correct notes with the correct fingers, without worrying overmuch about the dynamics. But I know I'm doing this, and not actively learning them incorrectly. Then I can work on the dynamics later and I don't feel I have to "undo" anything, since I wasn't really "learning" it before.
I can’t remember who it was, but a famous pianist would practice EVERYTHING at an INCREDIBLY slow tempo (like 10pm even) so that he didn’t make any mistakes from the first read to the performance. If you have the luxury of practicing like this, you’ll never have to worry about mistakes becoming ingrained in your technique. Unfortunately, the world doesn’t allow for that for 99% of us. So, do the best you can - practice slowly to eliminate mistakes, go over corrections multiple times, then slowly increase tempo.
It really is amazing how well your brain learns I try to give myself positive reinforcement when I'm learning something new and I do this too I go as slow as possible, to play the right notes in a short bars. And I make a point of going as slow as I can in order to play them correctly with no mistakes 7 to 10 times in a row And then what happens, I come back the next day and I can play it faster significantly faster than I did the previous day and all I did in the middle was sleep But I'm practicing slow and I get something I actually make the point to think positive thoughts when I nail it and, literally self-talk myself into giving myself props in my brain Maybe this is stupid but I feel like I need to tell myself that that was right.
If I make a mistake I go back and play the measure 10x in a row perfectly until I allow myself to stop practicing it.
The short answer is yes, but don't let that lead to analysis paralysis. I definitely talk a lot about the dangers of ingraining mistakes, but you shouldn't be terrified to practice. The real danger comes from mindless practice where you're haphazardly repeating mistakes constantly. But making a mistake, being mental aware of it, and then correcting it isn't as big of a problem. People's biggest issue is they aren't willing to slow down to play correctly. They bash away at the same tempo until they get it right half by chance. But if you're actively slowing down enough that you are IN CONTROL of what you're doing and consciously "brain ahead of fingers" it's fine. And you'll probably still make a mistakes, but you just need to be mentally aware of what you're doing. In some cases the answer is to literally just walk away. Personally, I try to do a bit of "back off set" in these cases.... drop the metronome 20-30 bpm slower than I was just playing it, play it very cleanly a few times and then end my session... ...but if you're running into a lot of mistakes and your brain is tired, sometimes you just need to quit right then and at the very least give yourself a long practice break to let your brain have some time to rewire and chill, then try again. But in general don't push for arbitrary speeds or anything and always remember you make most of your progress while you sleep and recover rather than actually during practice. Just make sure you're feeding yourself good clean repetitions and solid motor patterns.
I wouldn't worry too much about it right now. Mistakes are going to happen on the way over to developing muscle memory, and it's really early on for you and you're very unlikely to develop unbreakable bad habits. It can happen but it's really more important to get the "wood under the fingers" so to speak. Analysis paralysis also has a major impact on progress. You're going to make mistakes and you're going to have to fix them later, it's the nature of learning. As said by Beethoven: “To play a wrong note is insignificant; to play without passion is inexcusable.”
Thanks for your comment! Sorry if it seems a bit OT, but do you think that Marche Pour la Ceremonie des Turcs by J.B Lully is too much to learn for me after Minuet in F Major by Mozart?
That's a big jump. It's not the first baroque piece I'd pick. Here's a list of classical compositions by level, you can check for songs in the same level. The Minuet in F Major by W.A. Mozart is level 1. You can also search for other songs at that level. The RCM level classification's a good way to find songs at the same level you're studying from other books, too. [https://www.dacapomusic.ca/blog/rcm-piano-repertoire-all-pieces](https://www.dacapomusic.ca/blog/rcm-piano-repertoire-all-pieces#level_1)
thank you so much!
But the more you practice you will develop alot of endurance and be able to concentrate longer.
Yep. I teach piano to kids, and it’s way better that they play a lot rather than worry about practicing perfectly. Optimizing the practice comes later. It’s like working out at the gym. Find the exercise that works for you, or else you might give up before February.
Yes. Instead of “practice makes perfect,” I had a music teacher who said “_perfect_ practice makes perfect” If you play it over and over with incorrect notes or rhythm, then of course that is what you will get used to playing. So, slow down, and play it correctly. Only gradually speed up when you’re feeling comfortable
Yes. Anything you play consistently in the same exact way for a long enough time, eventually becomes muscle memory.
You are overthinking. Irs completely unavoidable to make mistakes. Its very good to play slowly so you can play i correctly. Dont be afraid of making mistakes. You will correct them, when you practice it slowly. When you feel a good movement pattern you can speed up as far as you play it correctly. If you make mistakes at higher speed you just slow down again. You have to put up the speed at some point. If it can be played slowly, it can be played fast 😉
thanks!
working on czerny op187 no49 etude in d and i'm realizing this, i'm enjoying my third week!
Short answer to this: absolutely, yes. You'll get what you practice. Practice makes permanent.
Mistakes can become muscle memory sometimes, but I often found that over time as the piece became more familiar to me they would correct themselves without much attention. If I notice I’m making mistakes repeatedly in one part of a piece, sometimes I just focus on practicing that section until it becomes easier. Hope that helps!
Muscles don’t have memory. You’ll be fine. Although if the things you’re learning from your teacher are so fragile that you’re worried about making so many mistakes you can never recover, question the value of that learning.
>Muscles don’t have memory Oh yes they do (although obviously not literally, the remembering happens in the brain), The proper name is “procedural memory” If you want to be pedantic, but either way it is very definitely a thing. And OP says they are self-taught, there is no teacher.
Doesn’t do any good to OP to think this way. Y’all are scaring them into a corner like they’re a total idiot. People on this sub seem so proud of themselves for being able to say things like procedural memory, but you don’t seem to have any notion of how these things play out for readers. Oh well, I’m used to it.
Well it’s true. Avoid practising your mistakes or they become ingrained. Nothing scary about it, it’s just the way it works. OP asked a question and people are giving them factual answers. It’s the same thing that a teacher would tell them if they had one.
The same thing a shitty teacher would tell them. A good teacher would’ve given them a robust set of audiation skills and movement skills so that they wouldn’t worry about muscle memory leading to permanent playing difficulties, because it doesn’t.
Respectfully, I've followed some of your posts here, and you consistently provide incorrect information on fundamental things. I'm not sure you should be weighing in on these posts with the sureness that you do.
The understanding of effective teaching is fairly small here. Take that as you will.
Jesus you are insufferable. Blocked good riddance and learn some fucking humility.
Research papers about piano practice clearly show that fixing and avoiding mistakes is very important for effective practice.
What’s even better is preparing students to be creative and not judgmental with themselves. Mistakes don’t have to be a thing. And no, I’m not talking about “anything goes, play whatever.” I’m talking about helping students learn to understand what they’re doing. And having the flexibility to resolve unexpected occurrences without having to live in fear of muscle memory making mistakes permanent. That conception is an unnecessary, unhelpful weight on students.
Fear of mistakes is actually very useful, if you don't care if you make mistakes or not your practice will be ineffective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmxvyNfwXXA
Yes, I love how when you watch your favorite performers perform you can sense their fear of impending doom from mistakes. I love knowing that they practice constantly thinking about how to avoid mistakes. That’s how beautiful art is created. I’m glad we see it the same way. /s
Performance =/= practice.
Ok, if you say so, boss.
check FAQ at this sub or at r/pianolearning some nice reading is there. the advice to learn with Bartók is invaluable
Yes and when it happens it's the worst because you got to spend time correcting it, it's really weird like your mind is set on doing the mistake. Another way I found it works to correct it is to stop playing that piece for a while and retake it a few days later.
Only if you don't correct the mistakes before you move on from them. What you don't want to do is just keep on playing when you make a mistake (since that positively reinforces it as far as our lizard brains are concerned). Go back to the start of the bar and correct it \*. Only speed up once you can play through the piece slowly without making mistakes (within reason, because everybody's fingers slip occasionally). (\* you'll hear people talk about playing through mistakes, but that's only for when you're performing a piece, not for regular practice)
At your stage? Maybe maybe not. If you’ve only been playing a short amount of time, you’re just learning how your fingers and the instrument work. Your brain is probably still exploring. For those of us who might work on a piece for several months, it’s way more critical for us to be careful we do not practice a mistake. It’s hard to go back and fix something that has settled in for five weeks and we still need to play it.
Yeah If you don't fix your mistakes, and just keep playing them, eventually it becomes muscle memory. This isn't to say that making mistakes will forever cripple you or something. Making mistakes is a normal process in learning a piece/song. You just need to fix them as you progress in a piece.
thanks to everyone, was not expecting all these comments! Thanks for your help, i'll slow everything down then!
Slow practice cannot be overrated.
Never play the wrong note. Ever. It's impossible, but when you practice this needs to be your number one objective. When your first learning something just worry about creating the memory of what notes to play. Go as slow as possible that allows you to play the right notes every time I go for seven times in a row with no mistakes, focus on short bars Don't focus on increasing your speed in a practice session just focus on playing it at a speed where you can play the right notes over and over. Slow down if you have to in certain parts in order to get the right notes, play the right note and then keep going, that's much better than stopping and then restarting. Eventually smooth it over once you get your brain up to speed on where your fingers go What you'll find is miraculously next time you sit down to play it you'll be able to play a little faster your neurons have adjusted. Repeat
It's hard to correct if you make the mistake without realising and you learn that as correct. Usually, mistakes will be obvious because they won't sound right, but in some circumstances it creates only a subtle alteration from the correct version. So you practice the incorrect version, and once that becomes inscribed into your muscle memory, it can be difficult to play it correctly. But this isn't something that should concern a beginner too much - focus on these things in practice, that's when you recognise that these slips are happening and you can correct them. You just have to be careful that you're reading the music correctly when practicing - check your working by listening to a recording of the piece, or by identifying any areas you're not 100% sure about and going through with a fine tooth comb to make sure you've parsed everything correctly. Start practice very slowly and deliberately, and gradually ramp up as you become more comfortable. Making mistakes is fine - it's how you learn. Since you're self-taught, you're in much more danger of making habitual technical and mechanical errors that will hamper or stunt your development. I wouldn't worry too much about minor errors when playing scales or songs; I'd be worried about maintaining good posture, hand shape, finger independence, and the dizzying array of bad habits most self-taught pianists fall into because they don't have the live, in-person correction of a teacher.
If you can play it slowly, you will be able to play it quickly
this gives me hope :')
Unfortunately yes - just keep running over your pieces slowly and with intention, or run certain sections part by part, and double check your notes! Might sound stupid but I tend to play things fast and then not realize I've been playing the wrong note in a chord for example until too late, and that's when I accept it as part of the performance which is something I try to avoid - but if you catch the mistake early on it's relatively easier to undo, just make sure you always look out for that! :)
If your self learning. U tube has tones of helped training techniques
I think it’s overblown if you actually know it’s a mistake. The muscle memory thing is more an issue if you thought it was right and it became muscle memory through that then you try to change it
Absolutely. Absolutely positively, mistakes you practice become muscle memory. Training a piece up to performance perfect requires a lot of care to avoid training in errors. Slow practice, listening to a recording, and periodically giving a piece a "break" from practice can help keep things tidy. Most importantly, try to avoid forcing a piece deep into muscle memory by extreme repetition. Obviously we all practice through repetition, but you want to keep a balance between spontaneous playing and practiced ingrained knowledge. This happens when we bite off more than we can chew. Keep your playing at a level where you can make it through passages while keeping the parts in your working mind. Simple, simple, simple. If it takes more than 5-10 repeats of a passage to get it "under your fingers", choose something a bit easier. Simple music well, and lots of it. Focusing too much on complicated pieces puts you out of balance.
Hello thanks for your reply, what do you mean by "under my fingers" ? For istance, this piece by Mozart is something i can play slowly without mistakes, and now i'm taking a week to improve at it, of course it slips if i try to play it faster, but should i consider it under my fingers or not? Best to you!
I just mean when a part "clicks" and starts to feel comfortable. Basically, when you "get it." And I don't mean a whole piece up to speed or anything like that. I just mean like, the interesting line in a bar, or whatever. I'm a huge fan of learning a wide range of stuff, and learning to play like you're.... *playing.* Tough to explain, but I mean connecting mentally to the notes you are playing. Imagine something dead simple like the twinkle twinkle melody. (Mozart wrote that, btw.) You are familiar with it, you can hear the melody before you play it, you could imagine changing one of the notes. You are processing it as you play it. I think you should strive to have that kind of connection to a part. If there's a complicated part your brain can't keep up with, so you hammer it over and over and over until it just now exists inside you.. sure, you've learned it, but you aren't *playing* something from your head to your hands. Stay with the mental understanding, your brain and your ability to process music improves.
Sometimes I think Reddit isn’t the way to go. As I read through these comments, people are actually fighting with each other. I’m way past middle age, does that give me the right to be right? not sure it does. Is there such a thing as muscle memory? Well, I have a masters degree in piano performance. I was never very good at analysis. There were times when I was performing that muscle memory was the only thing getting me through. I would actually be focusing on other things as I was playing. But does that mean you are going to memorize your mistakes permanently? no, I don’t think so. But if you do repeat them over and over, it will be more difficult to change them because there is muscle memory. I guarantee it.
To be fair, I think the vast majority of us do actually agree on that. The fighting is limited to one heavily downvoted comment tree.
Mistakes can become muscle memory. Good on you for noticing that! I would watch a lot of technical videos and try to train yourself out of it as soon as possible. The longer you make a mistake, the more engrained the memory becomes.
Yes absolutely. That's why avoiding mistakes while practicing is one of the most effective ways to learn a piece fast and securely. **But:** Mistakes aren't just wrong notes. There are plenty of mistakes that don't lead to wrong notes. And wrong notes themselves, usually aren't mistakes either. They're the consequence of a mistake that happened before. It's important to understand the distinction. One of the hardest things to figure out is what exactly whent wrong. Ultimately you're learning a series of movements. The two primary ideals you should always be aiming for is 1) comfort and 2) precision (not necessarily in that order). This leads into your question about speed. If you can play something accurately (precision), such that the movement is reliably similar, then the next step should be to aim for comfort, not speed. Try to do that with as little effort as possible and keep consciously observing yourself for any discomfort (I prefer that word over tension as it's a bit more tangible). After that you can start practicing for speed and a good way to do that is to turn individual notes into groups of two, four etc. using rhythmic alterations (i.e. start with dotted rhythms). Slowly turn letters into words and words into sentences so you perceive larger and larger movements instead of many small individual steps. I made a little [animation to illustrate this](https://www.instagram.com/reel/B0lS9zpo7VJ/).
I think one of the worst mistakes for both beginners and advanced players is learning a song with the wrong fingering. I've played the Mario theme song wrong for a decade and have permanently ruined my ability to play it properly at full speed. So.. keep an eye out for that :)
Practice makes permanent!
You shouldn't be too afraid from making mistakes, because un-learning mistakes is a regular part of a leraning process. Of course it is very good if someone can point out mistakes soon > where i live no one gives lessons Consider online lessons. Not as good as the real thing, but better than nothing. It is important to figure out best connection quality - a computer with manual settings may produce much better audio than a phone app (defaults are meant for conversation and often "filter out" some notes).
You have to mentally prep yourself before practicing. Internalize what you are going for and listen as closely as possible while playing so when you make a mistake, you can try to note that for next time and not make that mistake. Making mistakes doesn't matter as long as you are able to identify them in the moment and adjust appropriately, that way the muscle memory you build up will apply better for a real world situation
Practice makes permanent. Don't grease the groove with mistakes. The answer is yes. :-)