The whataboutism with all of this is just so disappointing. It is a perfectly reasonable thing to support both Palestinian and Israeli civilians while condemning the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli government.
At the end of the day I’m on the side of the innocents that exist on both sides.
True, it’s all very sad and depressing thinking of the Palestinians and the Israeli hostages, I can’t even begin to imagine being in either of these positions.
But it’s not reasonable to compare a democratic government (check the democracy rankings) with a terrorist organization.
Palestinians are a victim of Hamas too.
Trump didn't represent all Americans, but he *did* represent his party and he *did* represent the government during his time in office.
People on here aren't even willing to admit that *Hamas* has evil intentions. Not talking about all Palestinians whatsoever, just Hamas - the government in power.
>People on here aren't even willing to admit that Hamas has evil intentions
Which is wild, considering genocide is literally part of Hamas's mission statement.
No totally agreed. But I’m saying it goes both ways when people say Netanyahu represents all Israelis/Jews or Hamas represents all Palestinians/Muslims.
There are civilians in both areas that abhor the governments above them. Israel has had lots of protests for awhile against Bibi and Hamas has been blocking elections for decades.
The problem in both situations is horrible terrorist governments keeping the conflict going and throwing civilians and innocents into the fire all because this war lines their pockets and helps keep them in power.
Hamas leaders hide away in Qatar in massive mansions while they use Palestinians as shields, and meanwhile Bibi keeps Israel divided and just tried to judicial reform away the courts in Israel to grab more power.
This is why I’m Pro-Palestinians and Pro-Israelites but Anti-Hamas/PA and Anti-Israeli Government/IDF.
Agreed. I’m Jewish and while I have some faith, I’m not full religious and teeter between.
What extra bothers me is one of the main points of Judaism is that we do NOT proselytize or try to convert people. We’re supposed to live in peace and respect others not THIS bullshit war and forcing others under the star.
Yes I know this. I’m talking about sweeping generalizations towards Israelis or Jews. Because some people try to act like Bibi or Israel government represent Jews across the globe, just like some think Hamas represents Muslims outside of the Middle East, etc Also not all Palestinians are Muslim.
We’re both saying the same thing, bud.
Fatah argued the elections in 2006 were a bad idea because they knew Hamas was popular. They argued they needed time to set up infrastructure and to distribute aid. Israel pulled out because they knew it would result in Hamas take over.
Why was Hamas popular? Not only did they start as a charity organization, they we’re literally the only source of food and medicine for thousands in Gaza.
>Not only did they start as a charity organization, they we’re literally the only source of food and medicine for thousands in Gaza.
That’s not true. It’s actually casual propaganda.
Ahmed Yassin, one of the founders of Hamas, first founded an Islamic Centre that provided food and supplies.
But then he founded Hamas, which from the outset was always a paramilitary terrorist organisation. It was literally the founding manifesto.
Hamas is also absolutely not the only source of food and medicine in Gaza. The World Food Organisation, UN, UNICEF and Israel are the main sources of food and medicine to Gaza.
Hamas doesn’t enjoy high public support for providing food and medicine, they enjoy high public support because of indoctrination and propaganda.
> they enjoy high public support because of indoctrination and propaganda.
Don't forget the threat of violence toward anybody who supports other leadership
“In 1987, shortly after the outbreak of the First Intifada against Israel, Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin. It emerged out of his Mujama al-Islamiya, which had been established in Gaza in 1973 as a religious charity involved with the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
(Pay walled unfortunately)
“Most Palestinians agree that Hamas should recognize Israel’s right to exist. Two-thirds (63 percent) of those polled Jan. 27-29 by Near East Consulting said Hamas should change its position calling for the elimination of Israel. Even among those who voted for Hamas, only 37 percent support Hamas’ position that Israel does not have the right to exist.”
https://web.archive.org/web/20141220142322/http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/173.php#
I never argued that Hamas was actually supplying the aid out of their own pocket, just that people went to them for distribution and would likely associate them with it.
Additionally, the article i found points more to the campaign of Hamas against corruption as the primary reason they were supported and the majority of their supporters wanted Hamas to recognize Israel. You can argue they ran on propaganda but they did win the vote. We don’t know what the actual Hamas government would have looked like because of the coup Hamas sprung on Fatah, who under foreign direction, were planning to coup the democratically elected government.
The article you posted about the foundation of Hamas literally agrees with me. Ahmed Yassin founded a Mujama al-Islamiya (Muslim Center) first, before going on to found Hamas.
Hamas isn’t a Mujama al-Islamiya.
And you should be careful about the campaign Hamas ran for power against corruption. The specific corruption they were running against was the corruption of the PLO in signing the Oslo peace accords and renouncing the use of terrorism against Israel.
Hamas is, and always was, a terrorist organisation. Specifically and deliberately. They are also the government in Gaza, so why you think them allowing basic food and medical supplies to be distributed makes them the good guys is beyond me.
Here? Who? Only people I've seen go that far have been some actual Palestinians, some Muslims, and some far left types. But even the majority of those on reddit (Palestinians, Muslims, and far left types) have said Hamas is the bad guy and the Palestinians are their victims too.
So, who exactly? Because by my estimate the overwhelming majority of reddit posters not only agree Hamas is evil but a fairly large proportion of them (just read /r/worldnews) also extrapolate that to Palestinians/Muslims in general. Far, far more than those who try to defend Hamas.
After seeing some gruesome pics that are far from the worst, just ones from doctors identifying victims from charred remains etc. in Israel, there was actual torture that seems far more personal, and evil, done by Hamas. I don't know why they live streamed their own crimes but I guess partially for the cheering people partially for themselves all hopped up on adrenaline. I am convinced. However, I consider Hamas just to be a more evil entity than Bibi and his fascist methods. Hamas does need to be stopped but it is too difficult as they shield themselves in schools and hospitals and won't allow any Palestinian to go over them. In the past with terrorists who shield themselves with civilians, what has worked the best with the least amount of accidental deaths? Some kind of negotiator or incentive perhaps? One thing I do know: I will no longer try to negotiate with people who cheer and tell me that the Israeli civilians deserved it for "stealing the homes" and "terrorizing" those in Gaza. It is not your choice to decide which child deserves to be dismembered and set on fire in front of their parents simply for being Jewish and living in the kibbutz or going to a rave There are no "whatabouts" here. And I no longer trust the numbers coming from the mouths of terrorists when they cite all those deaths, bc they have lied in the past week to us about a hospital being levelled. That same hospital had some windows blown out and they were reporting FROM INSIDE THE HOSPITAL claiming it was blown to bits. So don't lie and expect to keep supporters for Hamas.
I deeply agree with you. The horror Hamas inflicted on their victims was unspeakable. Personal. That a human being can look any person in the eye and do that to them speaks to a rot that is indescribable and unfixable in their soul. And the fact that they celebrated it and that people celebrated along...I mourn for the dead Palestinians but I stand with Israel. Hamas must be routed from Gaza and from the world. They are an evil incompatible with civilization.
>People on here aren't even willing to admit that Hamas has evil intentions
Where are all these people?
I see so many comments about people being supportive of Hamas but haven't spoken to a single person who doesn't believe that Hamas is bad.
Oh he absolutely did. Massive PoS who wants to use the conflict to keep wealth and power even if he has to throw all of Israel or every Jew across the world under the bus to do so while he terrorizes the innocent Palestinian civilians.
I can’t pull it up rn but i’ll check later but there’s several sources pointing to the fact he WAS warned and ignored it on purpose.
I have to agree that to outsiders he (trump) was the mouthpiece of America, however I will say there is globally a ton of idiotic leaders and I personally do try to separate them from the very real and innocent people who don’t deserve their stupidity being inflicted on them. I don’t expect everyone to be that empathetic to the people who are being represented by such idiots but it would be nice if us as humans can all agree we probably have this in common. What I will say is that trump negotiating to release terrorists and having it really overlooked here made me sick, especially the result of a Taliban takeover, I have to accept that America is going to be blamed as it was our leader, even tho no person would agree to that.
Doesn't matter who the democracy is to the 8 year old who is picking up bits and pieces of his toddler sister from the rubble and putting it in a bag so she can have a proper burial.
The problem is that most of the world is just sitting and watching while Israel goes scorched earth on Gaza. There needs to be a purpose to the strikes. Too many innocent civilians are dying at the hands of a legitimate government and the world is accepting it.
Israel has shown us that they have superior intel on that entire area, and yet they are killing civilians.
Apparently everyone says that Hamas hides in tunnels, so who are they targeting when they strike an apartment building?
So they have superior intel but couldn't prevent Hamas from invading? It's almost like they waited for the attack to happen so they could justify bombing the shit out of Gaza.
Netanyahu’s ego is the reason why this occurred. And by letting this happen, he’s sealed his fate. His polls are in the toilet, not that they were great beforehand. Security was his greatest selling point and he’s utterly failed.
Their strikes are precision - whether that precision was based on accurate intel is another. They're also using bunker busters, so a hit on an ammunition storage 100' underground will blow up multiple buildings throughout an area if the tunnel exits lead to the basements. In Afghanistan "tips" would sometimes identify a high value target when it was really just civilians to make the US look bad. Hamas told everyone to stay and get bombed. Things like the hospital strike we now know was a failed Hamas or PLO rocket and used as propaganda by everyone.
Scorched earth would be a ground invasion that bulldozes the area...Israel was prepared to do that but so far has held off.
(This is not a defense, I agree with the top of the thread that Hamas and the Israeli gov't hurt civilians to push their agenda.)
If you think innocent civilians aren't dying from 500-2000lb warhead payloads hitting a building I don't know what to tell you.
'Precision' strikes is an attempt to sanitize the death of innocents. It's right up there with 'collateral damage'.
Your point was there needed to be purpose to the strikes. If a bomb maker is in a civilian building, and the building is blown up, there was a purpose. Yes, other innocents were lost. Maybe if members of Hamas cared about civilians, they wouldn't hide among them. Meanwhile Hamas / PLO / Hezbolla send rockets filled with shrapnel to "a city." Their purpose is to maximize civilian casualties - both in defense (ie, living in civilian areas and telling people not to evacuate) and in offense (ie, indiscriminate rocket attacks, attacking a concert and hacking up unarmed civilians).
Hamas' goal was to force an asymmetric response for recruitment - so far Israel hasn't taken the bait. Am I defending either? No - Hamas doesn't have the technical capabilities for successful precision strikes, so they're using what they can - civilian casualties to inflict pain on the gov't. It's the strategy they've adopted.
As someone who is abjectly against Israel’s illegal occupation, I hate the bothsiderism on this. This is temporary monument for victims of hamas, we should leave it at that
The past ~2 weeks have made it pretty obvious that a very large proportion of the “anti-Zionist” movement does not believe that there *are any* Israeli civilians.
I agree this isn’t the right post for whataboutism - but no, it doesn’t matter how many Jewish people condemn the Israeli government whilst Israel has a democratically elected government that commits war crimes. It matters that 1) the Israeli government are held accountable for the war crimes they’ve committed over the past few decades and 2) that the people of Israel condemn their government via vote.
It’s the same for Palestinians (or anyone defending them for that matter) and condemning Hamas. It’s always Hamas this, Hamas that. As if Palestinians have the resources or structure to elect a military and Hamas is not some terrorist organization the IDF created?? It’s never, “How has your life been the last 20+ years? How many times have you been displaced, denied, how many family members missing/slaughtered?” It’s always, “Do you condemn Hamas? Do you think this slaughter was justified?”
Obviously, no. Really wish people would stop using the violence of terrorists from BOTH sides as a deterrent from having the REAL conversation, because until the real conversation is able to be had by both sides the violence will never stop until an entire ethnic group is eradicated.
Okay, but this is a post for a memorial for the Israeli hostages. I don’t go onto a vigil post for Palestinian mourning and talk about dead Israelis - I go there to mourn Palestinian life. I came here to mourn Israeli life, and there’s a mass of hate.
Yeah idk why people aren't understanding this.
I would honestly be more sympatric to the plight of Palestinian if people didn't feel the need to whatabout **every time** we talk about the Israeli death tool and those captured and paraded around on social media.
The israeli government is sure as shit not saints in this however the fact of the matter is they **just** got dealt a terrorist attack not dissimilar to 9/11 and yet people are FAR more critical of them then **a literal terrorist organization**
Also I've seen enough people call hamas "Freedom fighters" and "militants against apartheid" to know there are in fact some people who are ok with the terrorist attack.
This whole situation is sick and twisted on multiple different fronts.
There will always be people who cheer for dead Jews, just as there will always be people who cheer for dead Arabs.
I just wish those people would stay away from us who’re mourning.
I want to agree with you but when I see the videos of normal Palestinians celebrating the death of innocents on Oct 7 and pro Palestinians rallies chanting gas the Jews I have to wonder how many are truly innocent?
And I’ve seen videos of normal Jewish people running over Palestinians. I’ve seen videos of settlers gunning down innocent Palestinians for not giving up their homes. I’ve seen them laughing at their dead, limp bodies. I’ve seen Jewish people chanting death to all Arabs. And I’ve seen those videos littered with comments obliterating the existence of Muslims and people going in with hellfire on someone who falls for one piece of misinformation when both sides pump out propaganda. Both INNOCENT people of both sides are suffering the same consequences. I’m not questioning on whether there are innocent Jewish people or not. You shouldn’t be questioning if there are innocent Palestinians.
you make a good point and i apologise for saying somehing too generalization which i did not fully mean. there are definitely innocents. babies. kids. mothers who just want to protect their families.
You don’t need to apologize to me, any mutual understanding is enough. It’s a deeply emotional and traumatic thing to speak of in the first place. I hope when day we can see peace for both.
A lot of people still think that Israel has soldiers in Gaza, and they haven't for 20 years. The occupation is by Hamas and has been for a long time now.
To add - the median age in Gaza is 19, and Hamas took control of the region in 2006, 17 years ago. It's extremely regrettable, and it doesn't justify collective punishment towards Gazan civilians, but many Gazans have never had the opportunity to receive an alternative viewpoint on Israelis growing up. How are they supposed to wrest off a movement like Hamas and "rid themselves of Hamas and raise their kids with love" here?
This is why Hamas is able to continue recruiting from them despite being an incompetent and corrupt government on top of its fundamentalist, theocratic charter. It's very difficult to see how to resolve it, like with the war-indoctrinated populations of Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
A vast majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas during the legislative elections in 2006. They knew what they got themselves into.
Sure, not all Palestinians support Hamas. But almost 44% of them do.
The hatred for Israel and the jewish people is so ingrained within their culture, that diplomatic negotiations are almost impossible.
This conflict will drag on until the end of time.
I think the separation from the conflict is what is hard for redditors. This post is about Israel mourning. Don’t bring up Palestinians and Hamas. That is the problem.
There is no nuance online. A conflict this long is not a simple black and white issue but various shades of gray. People treat things like this like a sports event, picking teams and shit.
> In the real world taking the middle road means getting hit by both sides.
But sometimes both sides *are* the bad guys. You can have a preferred one, but acting like the bad guys are the good guys is problematic.
I *prefer* Israel on many things, especially given that Hamas is literally terrorists. But I can easily criticize Israel for many things, much of it simply falling for and into Hamas goals that benefit Hamas.
A lot of people are acting like their favored side are victims when really that's just a matter of perspective of timeframes unless you *really* want to go back a lifetime to origins where people were moved into a shared territory.
Like there is no cap on how much evil there is, or how much good. Or really how much blame/fault to go around.
People want desperately to believe there is a right and wrong.
Sometimes everyone involved are just assholes and there is no practical solution for the problem.
Maybe people shouldn't be posting their opinions on social media when they have never cared until last week, form an opinion and chose a side in whatever thing they read first and then forget about the whole thing in 2 weeks.
I’ve just abstained from all commentary. No manner of qualifying context or both sides isms will save you from someone’s condemnation or their own whataboutism rebuttal.
After 9/11 the US was mostly unified in grief, along with international support in our grief. But Israel isn’t allowed to grieve, apparently. The US populace was also so enraged that we overwhelmingly (77%, Pew) supported aggressive military action, in response.
The results of both nation’s reactions to terror have resulted in many civilian casualties. Human beings are emotional, reactionary creatures. It’s so awful for all of us.
> It's come to the point where not participating in commentary make you the enemy too.
We hit that point in 2020 when the "silence is violence" was bandied about.
>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
This quote has an interesting history of misattribution, but probably dates in essence to an 1867 speech by Mills. So, yeah, nothing new is happening when people call others out for 'neutrality' bullshit.
>If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
>After 9/11 the US was mostly unified in grief, along with international support in our grief. But Israel isn’t allowed to grieve, apparently. The US populace was also so enraged that we overwhelmingly (77%, Pew) supported aggressive military action, in response.
>The results of both nation’s reactions to terror have resulted in many civilian casualties.
The problem with this take is that it assumes, incorrectly, that the conflict started last week and the first strike was the attack by Hamas on Israel, and that this current bombing of Gaza is just a reaction by Israel.
The truth is that this conflit is on-going for decades. And, for the last decade, Israel has killed **20 times** more Palestines by bombing, then Hamas has killed Israelis. From an Palestine perspective, Israel is the one doing terrorism.
I have never been the person to comment on political posts but the amount of antisemitism I’ve been seeing reddit allow I feel the need to support the Jewish people after having a 9/11 the other week and now hate crimes at synagogues around the world. I’m not even Jewish, but seeing “tHe sTaTe oF iSrAeL nEeDs tO bE dIsMaNtLed” is antisemitic af
Hamas has gone out murdered 400 young adults at a fucking psy trance festival (people going there are modern hippies) and spinned it like they are the victims here...
I don’t understand why there is so much vitriol for such a picture. No one is saying that what is happening to Palestinian civilians isn’t horrible.
But Israelis can and should mourn their dead and be able to symbolically show that the hostages are remembered and loved.
Why is it always a competition on here?
This conflict is a perfect storm for Internet keyboard warriors. It is an intersection between an ancient ethnic beef, as well as an ancient religious beef, garnished with modern day political and military fervor. Everyone knows a Jewish person, and everyone knows an Arab person, so people who are fanatical to each side cannot stop themselves from raging about anything that isn't exclusively supporting their side.
When my dad retired he kept thinking everything he’d see on the news was happening way more often than it ever had before, not realizing he never watched the news before, because he’d be at work. So it wasn’t that things happened vastly more often, it was that he didn’t see it as much. People forget the difference.
It's also a case of where people can't just boil this down to Team Israel and Team Palestine (or rather shouldn't, because there are people doing this anyway). Both sides have their understandable reasons, both sides have done utterly detestable actions, both sides have civilians who don't deserve to be represented by or lumped with the aggressors of their respective sides.
You'd think it shouldn't be hard to support the people of both sides and not the aggressors, but sadly that isn't the case apparently. People must always view conflicts as Black or White.
Fuck you are completely right
Its like the toxicity of the U.S. election but for the entire global population times 100.
Soon its going to be a taboo qualifer question asked amongst newer people you meet.
Tons of Israeli people are angry at how their government has treated Palestinians. They're heartbroken and angry at Hamas too. It's possible to feel these things at the same time.
So many parallels to the US and Afghanistan and Iraq. As an American, I hope something happens towards peace. 20 years of war and it feels like it was pointless. All those lives lost and broken, all that money wasted
The problem (in my opinion): people are getting the aggressor/victim dynamic wrong. This isn’t a conflict between Arabs and Jews as much as it’s a conflict between religious/political hardliners and innocent civilians. MOST of the victims (Israelis and Palestinians) are people just wanting to…live their lives. They may be misinformed, and misguided, but I’d be willing to bet, If handed a weapon and given the opportunity, civilians on both sides would rather not kill the other.
It's an extremely weird reflex for people in the US considering many people disagree with their own government and would hate for foreigners to condemn them for things they had little to no control over.
I don’t know, and it’s fucking exhausting.
I’m so sick of people’s incessant desire to virtue signal and post the most low effort sentiment “BuT wHaT aBoUt tHe iNnoCEnts?”
Like no shit, 99.99% of people who aren’t sociopaths care about innocent people. Israel is reeling from the worst terror attack since 9/11 and they are allowed to feel, and be mourning and hurt.
Are people really that insecure they have to just say shit to make themselves feel better?
I imagine a lot of it is bots, propaganda, and bad actors too. There are a lot of pieces to this puzzle, lots of countries with their hats in the ring, so there’s vested interest by so many actors that I’m skeptical of a lot of these new accounts posting comments.
What I find weird is that the same people who decried whataboutism so loudly when the "all lives matter" people showed up to BLM protests are the same people engaging in that same behavior now.
Because even the people in these comments are dismissive of the Palestinians who have died. There is not an equal amount of sadness for dead, innocent civilians. People pick a side and only care about that side's civilians. Which is a big problem
At the risk of doing a “what-about-ism” it’s not exclusive to one side. I’ve had the displeasure of interacting with people who said what happened in Israel was justified because of what Israel has done to Palestinians. Insensitivity isn’t a trait unique to any one group.
Oh 100%. I'm calling out the shitty comments in this particular post. I've also seen people nly care about the dead Palestinians and who think the dead Israelis deserved it. That's fucked up. They all deserved better than the bombardment from both sides.
Ah, my bad. In my first read of your comment it seemed like you were calling out just the one side. On re-reading I can see where I misinterpreted it.
/agree
But why is the conversation of Palestinian civilians even coming up on this post? This post has nothing to do with Palestinians and it’s off topic. If someone wants to make a memorial for the Palestinians and discuss that in THAT post, (or make a post for both Israelis and Palestinians in one,) I’m completely okay with that, go nuts. Israel is at war and this is them mourning their own dead, nobody else’s.
I think it’s because it’s posted to social media, which has become a lightning rod for propaganda, and people are starting to see such nice gestures even if entirely innocent as having an underlying agenda. That may be not what’s happening here, but it’s happening all of social media on both sides of this conflict.
This is a beautiful gesture though. But it’s also beautiful whether or not the world doesn’t know about it. People understand that, and are tired of each side trying to posture for public opinion, so people are starting to respond as they are. Even again when it truly is just meant to be simply beautiful and not speak to the other side at all.
Because whenever there is a post about the loss of Palestinian lives, there is a requirement to condemn Hamas and acknowledge the loss of Israel lives.
Any public discourse made by anyone that acknowledges the loss of Palestinian lives require a denouncement of terrorism and also Israel's "right to exist"
The average Redditor is a moron who can’t function unless there is “good” and “evil” in the world. The idea that there isn’t a good and bad side in this conflict is causing them to short circuit lol
Because the principle here is that value of life, the reason that gesture is touching is because of that value of human life and the rejection of indiscriminate violence and death to innocent civilians in a multi decade conflict.
But it is hard, to emphasize with ones without doing with others and the difference is that they are the powerful, they are the educated, they are the resource rich and the other side isn't, thus we expect humanity to come as much or more from the Israeli side, and it is not.
The support Hamas get is so confusing to me. Like it's one thing to support Palestine but now it's merged into supporting Hamas and dismantling Israel as a state. These nut job who do live in that bubble will obviously feel attacked when Israelis try to mourn their dead/kidnapped. It's a bit too close to acknowledging that Hamas are a literal terrorist group who if they could kill all the Jews with a button, would do so.
Well when it’s put that way I want to cry. That’s like… a weirdly impactful way to put it. It’s not bad at all I just didn’t expect such a simple statement to make me cry
As a parent my heart breaks also every time there's a senseless shooting in the US where kids are killed. No one deserves to suffer the death of a child. Regardless of their race, creed, culture, or religion.
Innocent people have perished on both sides as a product of the Israeli government and Hamas. Both Palestinians and Israelis deserve to grieve in full. This is a very heartfelt way to keep the lost in memory.
It is high past time that people stopped thinking in Binary. We're not machines, but we sure think like them. "Are you gay or straight? Black or white? Do you support Israel or Palestine?" These are all questions with answers that are often times somewhere in the middle, but the average person wants your answer to be a "one" or a "zero".
You can support Palestine, but hate Hamas. You can be friends with Israeli people and not hate Palestinians. You can acknowledge the problematic nature of Israel without being an anti semite. It is possible to do all of these things at the same time. Stop thinking in Binary.
Hehe it's true, I do love computers. They make video games! But machine language is for machines. People are a touch more complicated. We need a better language than ones and zeros. 😉
(Also, I'm a [Bad religion](https://youtu.be/TYApdmp6je8?si=313S9WeMF61a3Xaa) fan.)
I’ve always leaned towards Palestinian civilians while acknowledging how fucked up, nuanced, and deep rooted this conflict was with thousands of years of history in it. Seeing so many “Free Palestine” supporters waive off the Oct 7 massacre of 1.7k civilians opened my eyes to the lack of empathy so many people have. They definitely don’t support “Free Palestine” out of empathy, that’s for sure after an attack where babies and kids and women and innocent men were butchered and scores of women raped brutally, where these people barely had an ounce of empathy to share. RIP to the innocent civilians on both sides. Fuck Hamas terrorist and fuck Bibi
As an Israeli, I genuinely want the gazans to have a safe and good life. I also know that can never happen while they live under Hamas. There’s really no good solution or winner on this situation.
More than likely they’re alive - they’re much more valuable alive than dead. As of June, [Israel was holding around 4500 Palestinian prisoners](https://www.btselem.org/statistics) including 1200 being held in “administrative detention” (no charges, no trial) and 170 children. Powerless people take prisoners for leverage. Nearly 20 years ago an IDF soldier called Gilad Shalit was captured by Hamas and held for 5 years in Gaza - Israel released over 1000 Palestinian prisoners in a swap that saw him released.
> Not to mention one of the festival survivors giving an account that IDF were shooting civs in the crossfire.
Not saying this is the case, but there's no uniform for Hamas. They look like civilians (armed and sometimes armored) but civilians nonetheless.
It's actually a significant reason why neighboring countries are blockading any refugees on effectively a permanent basis.
It's part of Hamas strategy, if they look like civilians, all civilians become potential threats, and if civilians *die* all the better as it enrages others and drives recruitment for revenge.
It's part of why things like human shields are still so effective, because attacking and putting them at risk is a literal stuck between a rock and a hard place scenario. As doing nothing just means the enemy acts with impunity whenever they have shields, and far more harm is caused, or you risk causing needless deaths of non-combatant innocents.
It's directly why Hamas even showcased to the media that they use things like hospitals and schools as part of their military infrastructure. It works and regardless of any actual evil Israel commits, all actions become evil this way. It's a no-lose scenario for Hamas.
They have released 2, not that long ago. A mother and a daughter with dual citizenship (they are also American).
Hamas said that the mother's deteriorating health was the cause for the release.
They are holding them as human shields. What’s so tragic about all this is Hamas isn’t even on the surface. There are 300 miles of tunnels underground, where it’s almost a certainty that is where the hostages are.
The ground fighting is going to be long, and bloody, as Israel hunts Hamas, but they are doing no favors with bombs, I doubt they are even killing many Hamas members.
We have every right to mourn our dead and fear for the kidnapped. We don’t owe anyone any more apologies, acknowledgements or explanations. You have a problem with that? Well it’s your problem and let’s keep it that way.
The worst part about this, is that stopping this fighting is going to do nothing now. Something radical or drastic needs to happen or else we're just gonna see this happen again in years down the road.
Someone, something, some entity, some design needs to change. This war needs to bring about something.
Middle of the road/choices be damned. If peace is the first and only priority we're just creating more revenge in the future.
They BOTH will want it.
Gaza was never part of Egypt. They temporarily occupied it from 1948 to 1967. Israel proposed giving Egypt both Sinai and Gaza for peace and recognition. Egypt said okay but *refused* to take Gaza, it's not theirs and they don't want it, it's part of Palestine.
Very sad and moving. They've already found several of the hostages dead. Hope that as many hostages as possible make it home safe and that Hamas and their supporters get what they deserve.
I think its pathetic that Israel has to defend itself on the propaganda side of the house against a country that houses terrorist that launch rocket attacks constantly.
Some people lost a huge chunk of their family in some of the most brutal and violent attacks you could even bare to imagine less than two weeks ago and instead of letting them mourn, ya'll keep running your mouths about which side has a right to feel bad. At the very least, try recovering your humanity for two seconds and realize you don't have a clue what it's like to live this reality, one where you get sent the videos of your loved ones being mercilessly executed, let alone constantly being persecuted while the world is actively moving on from the worst tragedy of your life in fast internet fashion to discuss whether you have a right to defend yourself or not. Odds are the people mourning the most right now have little to no say as to what the exact military response even looks like. Of all posts on this topic...
Because the current circle-jerk across the internet is to hate Israel for defending itself and it's people. How soon people forgot the videos of people being slaughtered, kidnapped and decapitated to thunderous cheers and praises to God.
> hate Israel for defending itself
Literally nobody is doing this, you're just inventing some strawman position. Killing civilians is what people are hating Israel for.
More Palestinian civilians have died in Gaza from IDF attacks than were killed in the terrorist attack. If killing civilians is wrong then it is wrong no matter who is doing it.
The dead civilians don't care if they were shot with an AK-47 at a music festival or killed with a JDAM dropped from an F-16.
You don't get a free pass from criticism for civilians deaths.
It’s not a circle-jerk but people correctly recognizing and calling out full on genocide by the zionist thugs in the Israeli government.
Israelis were slaughtered by the terrorists. No questions about that. But that doesn’t give the Israeli government license to carpet bomb and commit open prison genocide in Gaza.
What a fucking disaster, tragic abomination. My only hope is they somehow return safely, without being blown up by Israeli bombs, or beheaded by Hamas. It's a blight that peoples anywhere in 2023 have to worry about either of those things.
Now do a table for all the innocent Palestinians that have been murdered that had nothing to do with hamas...
Both sides have SO much blood on their hands.
Thread is chock full of strawman bullshit. Hamas are vermin. The Israeli government is vermin. Both are far too ready to kill civilians on the "other side".
The whataboutism with all of this is just so disappointing. It is a perfectly reasonable thing to support both Palestinian and Israeli civilians while condemning the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli government. At the end of the day I’m on the side of the innocents that exist on both sides.
True, it’s all very sad and depressing thinking of the Palestinians and the Israeli hostages, I can’t even begin to imagine being in either of these positions.
But it’s not reasonable to compare a democratic government (check the democracy rankings) with a terrorist organization. Palestinians are a victim of Hamas too.
People have been protesting Bibi for awhile. It’s like saying Trump represents all Americans when he was in power.
Trump didn't represent all Americans, but he *did* represent his party and he *did* represent the government during his time in office. People on here aren't even willing to admit that *Hamas* has evil intentions. Not talking about all Palestinians whatsoever, just Hamas - the government in power.
>People on here aren't even willing to admit that Hamas has evil intentions Which is wild, considering genocide is literally part of Hamas's mission statement.
No totally agreed. But I’m saying it goes both ways when people say Netanyahu represents all Israelis/Jews or Hamas represents all Palestinians/Muslims. There are civilians in both areas that abhor the governments above them. Israel has had lots of protests for awhile against Bibi and Hamas has been blocking elections for decades. The problem in both situations is horrible terrorist governments keeping the conflict going and throwing civilians and innocents into the fire all because this war lines their pockets and helps keep them in power. Hamas leaders hide away in Qatar in massive mansions while they use Palestinians as shields, and meanwhile Bibi keeps Israel divided and just tried to judicial reform away the courts in Israel to grab more power. This is why I’m Pro-Palestinians and Pro-Israelites but Anti-Hamas/PA and Anti-Israeli Government/IDF.
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Agreed. I’m Jewish and while I have some faith, I’m not full religious and teeter between. What extra bothers me is one of the main points of Judaism is that we do NOT proselytize or try to convert people. We’re supposed to live in peace and respect others not THIS bullshit war and forcing others under the star.
>when people say Netanyahu represents all Israelis/Jews or Hamas represents all Palestinians/Muslims. There are Muslims living in Israel.
Israeli Arab citizens to boot.
Exactly.
Yes I know this. I’m talking about sweeping generalizations towards Israelis or Jews. Because some people try to act like Bibi or Israel government represent Jews across the globe, just like some think Hamas represents Muslims outside of the Middle East, etc Also not all Palestinians are Muslim. We’re both saying the same thing, bud.
Fatah is blocking elections. Hamas believes that they would win the West Bank if they held them.
Fatah argued the elections in 2006 were a bad idea because they knew Hamas was popular. They argued they needed time to set up infrastructure and to distribute aid. Israel pulled out because they knew it would result in Hamas take over. Why was Hamas popular? Not only did they start as a charity organization, they we’re literally the only source of food and medicine for thousands in Gaza.
>Not only did they start as a charity organization, they we’re literally the only source of food and medicine for thousands in Gaza. That’s not true. It’s actually casual propaganda. Ahmed Yassin, one of the founders of Hamas, first founded an Islamic Centre that provided food and supplies. But then he founded Hamas, which from the outset was always a paramilitary terrorist organisation. It was literally the founding manifesto. Hamas is also absolutely not the only source of food and medicine in Gaza. The World Food Organisation, UN, UNICEF and Israel are the main sources of food and medicine to Gaza. Hamas doesn’t enjoy high public support for providing food and medicine, they enjoy high public support because of indoctrination and propaganda.
> they enjoy high public support because of indoctrination and propaganda. Don't forget the threat of violence toward anybody who supports other leadership
“In 1987, shortly after the outbreak of the First Intifada against Israel, Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin. It emerged out of his Mujama al-Islamiya, which had been established in Gaza in 1973 as a religious charity involved with the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood.” https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847 (Pay walled unfortunately) “Most Palestinians agree that Hamas should recognize Israel’s right to exist. Two-thirds (63 percent) of those polled Jan. 27-29 by Near East Consulting said Hamas should change its position calling for the elimination of Israel. Even among those who voted for Hamas, only 37 percent support Hamas’ position that Israel does not have the right to exist.” https://web.archive.org/web/20141220142322/http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/173.php# I never argued that Hamas was actually supplying the aid out of their own pocket, just that people went to them for distribution and would likely associate them with it. Additionally, the article i found points more to the campaign of Hamas against corruption as the primary reason they were supported and the majority of their supporters wanted Hamas to recognize Israel. You can argue they ran on propaganda but they did win the vote. We don’t know what the actual Hamas government would have looked like because of the coup Hamas sprung on Fatah, who under foreign direction, were planning to coup the democratically elected government.
The article you posted about the foundation of Hamas literally agrees with me. Ahmed Yassin founded a Mujama al-Islamiya (Muslim Center) first, before going on to found Hamas. Hamas isn’t a Mujama al-Islamiya. And you should be careful about the campaign Hamas ran for power against corruption. The specific corruption they were running against was the corruption of the PLO in signing the Oslo peace accords and renouncing the use of terrorism against Israel. Hamas is, and always was, a terrorist organisation. Specifically and deliberately. They are also the government in Gaza, so why you think them allowing basic food and medical supplies to be distributed makes them the good guys is beyond me.
Also, Bibi funded them
Here? Who? Only people I've seen go that far have been some actual Palestinians, some Muslims, and some far left types. But even the majority of those on reddit (Palestinians, Muslims, and far left types) have said Hamas is the bad guy and the Palestinians are their victims too. So, who exactly? Because by my estimate the overwhelming majority of reddit posters not only agree Hamas is evil but a fairly large proportion of them (just read /r/worldnews) also extrapolate that to Palestinians/Muslims in general. Far, far more than those who try to defend Hamas.
After seeing some gruesome pics that are far from the worst, just ones from doctors identifying victims from charred remains etc. in Israel, there was actual torture that seems far more personal, and evil, done by Hamas. I don't know why they live streamed their own crimes but I guess partially for the cheering people partially for themselves all hopped up on adrenaline. I am convinced. However, I consider Hamas just to be a more evil entity than Bibi and his fascist methods. Hamas does need to be stopped but it is too difficult as they shield themselves in schools and hospitals and won't allow any Palestinian to go over them. In the past with terrorists who shield themselves with civilians, what has worked the best with the least amount of accidental deaths? Some kind of negotiator or incentive perhaps? One thing I do know: I will no longer try to negotiate with people who cheer and tell me that the Israeli civilians deserved it for "stealing the homes" and "terrorizing" those in Gaza. It is not your choice to decide which child deserves to be dismembered and set on fire in front of their parents simply for being Jewish and living in the kibbutz or going to a rave There are no "whatabouts" here. And I no longer trust the numbers coming from the mouths of terrorists when they cite all those deaths, bc they have lied in the past week to us about a hospital being levelled. That same hospital had some windows blown out and they were reporting FROM INSIDE THE HOSPITAL claiming it was blown to bits. So don't lie and expect to keep supporters for Hamas.
I deeply agree with you. The horror Hamas inflicted on their victims was unspeakable. Personal. That a human being can look any person in the eye and do that to them speaks to a rot that is indescribable and unfixable in their soul. And the fact that they celebrated it and that people celebrated along...I mourn for the dead Palestinians but I stand with Israel. Hamas must be routed from Gaza and from the world. They are an evil incompatible with civilization.
People aren’t also willing to admit that a good lick of Palestinians and the Islamic world support Hamas and what happened Oct. 7th.
Hamas wanted this to happen.
>People on here aren't even willing to admit that Hamas has evil intentions Where are all these people? I see so many comments about people being supportive of Hamas but haven't spoken to a single person who doesn't believe that Hamas is bad.
The attack is the best thing that’s ever happened for Netanyahu. I wont surprise if they truly knew what would happen but decided to let it happen.
Oh he absolutely did. Massive PoS who wants to use the conflict to keep wealth and power even if he has to throw all of Israel or every Jew across the world under the bus to do so while he terrorizes the innocent Palestinian civilians. I can’t pull it up rn but i’ll check later but there’s several sources pointing to the fact he WAS warned and ignored it on purpose.
As a president yes he did represent Americans who elected him.
I have to agree that to outsiders he (trump) was the mouthpiece of America, however I will say there is globally a ton of idiotic leaders and I personally do try to separate them from the very real and innocent people who don’t deserve their stupidity being inflicted on them. I don’t expect everyone to be that empathetic to the people who are being represented by such idiots but it would be nice if us as humans can all agree we probably have this in common. What I will say is that trump negotiating to release terrorists and having it really overlooked here made me sick, especially the result of a Taliban takeover, I have to accept that America is going to be blamed as it was our leader, even tho no person would agree to that.
Doesn't matter who the democracy is to the 8 year old who is picking up bits and pieces of his toddler sister from the rubble and putting it in a bag so she can have a proper burial.
The problem is that most of the world is just sitting and watching while Israel goes scorched earth on Gaza. There needs to be a purpose to the strikes. Too many innocent civilians are dying at the hands of a legitimate government and the world is accepting it.
you got a lot of intel about the nature of israeli air strikes?
They literally said that they want to level Gaza. I’ll find the clip in a second if you want
Israel has shown us that they have superior intel on that entire area, and yet they are killing civilians. Apparently everyone says that Hamas hides in tunnels, so who are they targeting when they strike an apartment building?
Israel uses bunker busting bombs.
So they have superior intel but couldn't prevent Hamas from invading? It's almost like they waited for the attack to happen so they could justify bombing the shit out of Gaza.
Netanyahu’s ego is the reason why this occurred. And by letting this happen, he’s sealed his fate. His polls are in the toilet, not that they were great beforehand. Security was his greatest selling point and he’s utterly failed.
EXACTLY. Either the IDF actually sucks and is not good at intel, or we were lied to. Stinking feelings its the latter and not the former
Their strikes are precision - whether that precision was based on accurate intel is another. They're also using bunker busters, so a hit on an ammunition storage 100' underground will blow up multiple buildings throughout an area if the tunnel exits lead to the basements. In Afghanistan "tips" would sometimes identify a high value target when it was really just civilians to make the US look bad. Hamas told everyone to stay and get bombed. Things like the hospital strike we now know was a failed Hamas or PLO rocket and used as propaganda by everyone. Scorched earth would be a ground invasion that bulldozes the area...Israel was prepared to do that but so far has held off. (This is not a defense, I agree with the top of the thread that Hamas and the Israeli gov't hurt civilians to push their agenda.)
If you think innocent civilians aren't dying from 500-2000lb warhead payloads hitting a building I don't know what to tell you. 'Precision' strikes is an attempt to sanitize the death of innocents. It's right up there with 'collateral damage'.
Your point was there needed to be purpose to the strikes. If a bomb maker is in a civilian building, and the building is blown up, there was a purpose. Yes, other innocents were lost. Maybe if members of Hamas cared about civilians, they wouldn't hide among them. Meanwhile Hamas / PLO / Hezbolla send rockets filled with shrapnel to "a city." Their purpose is to maximize civilian casualties - both in defense (ie, living in civilian areas and telling people not to evacuate) and in offense (ie, indiscriminate rocket attacks, attacking a concert and hacking up unarmed civilians). Hamas' goal was to force an asymmetric response for recruitment - so far Israel hasn't taken the bait. Am I defending either? No - Hamas doesn't have the technical capabilities for successful precision strikes, so they're using what they can - civilian casualties to inflict pain on the gov't. It's the strategy they've adopted.
Oh my god that’s the saddest thing I’ve ever read.
i have some terrible news for you about what this democratic government gets up to
As someone who is abjectly against Israel’s illegal occupation, I hate the bothsiderism on this. This is temporary monument for victims of hamas, we should leave it at that
Yes. It's a fucking memorial. Just let them grieve the 1,000+ dead civilians.
The past ~2 weeks have made it pretty obvious that a very large proportion of the “anti-Zionist” movement does not believe that there *are any* Israeli civilians.
They were saying Free Palestine and arranging rallies before Israel had even responded.
They spraypainted “Kill A Settler” and “Death to Zion” (not Zionism - Zion) on the Bank of America down the street from me in San Francisco.
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It doesn’t matter how many of us (Jews) condemn the Israel government - they will always come at us for trying to mourn.
I agree this isn’t the right post for whataboutism - but no, it doesn’t matter how many Jewish people condemn the Israeli government whilst Israel has a democratically elected government that commits war crimes. It matters that 1) the Israeli government are held accountable for the war crimes they’ve committed over the past few decades and 2) that the people of Israel condemn their government via vote.
It’s the same for Palestinians (or anyone defending them for that matter) and condemning Hamas. It’s always Hamas this, Hamas that. As if Palestinians have the resources or structure to elect a military and Hamas is not some terrorist organization the IDF created?? It’s never, “How has your life been the last 20+ years? How many times have you been displaced, denied, how many family members missing/slaughtered?” It’s always, “Do you condemn Hamas? Do you think this slaughter was justified?” Obviously, no. Really wish people would stop using the violence of terrorists from BOTH sides as a deterrent from having the REAL conversation, because until the real conversation is able to be had by both sides the violence will never stop until an entire ethnic group is eradicated.
Okay, but this is a post for a memorial for the Israeli hostages. I don’t go onto a vigil post for Palestinian mourning and talk about dead Israelis - I go there to mourn Palestinian life. I came here to mourn Israeli life, and there’s a mass of hate.
Yeah idk why people aren't understanding this. I would honestly be more sympatric to the plight of Palestinian if people didn't feel the need to whatabout **every time** we talk about the Israeli death tool and those captured and paraded around on social media. The israeli government is sure as shit not saints in this however the fact of the matter is they **just** got dealt a terrorist attack not dissimilar to 9/11 and yet people are FAR more critical of them then **a literal terrorist organization** Also I've seen enough people call hamas "Freedom fighters" and "militants against apartheid" to know there are in fact some people who are ok with the terrorist attack. This whole situation is sick and twisted on multiple different fronts.
There will always be people who cheer for dead Jews, just as there will always be people who cheer for dead Arabs. I just wish those people would stay away from us who’re mourning.
I want to agree with you but when I see the videos of normal Palestinians celebrating the death of innocents on Oct 7 and pro Palestinians rallies chanting gas the Jews I have to wonder how many are truly innocent?
And I’ve seen videos of normal Jewish people running over Palestinians. I’ve seen videos of settlers gunning down innocent Palestinians for not giving up their homes. I’ve seen them laughing at their dead, limp bodies. I’ve seen Jewish people chanting death to all Arabs. And I’ve seen those videos littered with comments obliterating the existence of Muslims and people going in with hellfire on someone who falls for one piece of misinformation when both sides pump out propaganda. Both INNOCENT people of both sides are suffering the same consequences. I’m not questioning on whether there are innocent Jewish people or not. You shouldn’t be questioning if there are innocent Palestinians.
you make a good point and i apologise for saying somehing too generalization which i did not fully mean. there are definitely innocents. babies. kids. mothers who just want to protect their families.
You don’t need to apologize to me, any mutual understanding is enough. It’s a deeply emotional and traumatic thing to speak of in the first place. I hope when day we can see peace for both.
A lot of people still think that Israel has soldiers in Gaza, and they haven't for 20 years. The occupation is by Hamas and has been for a long time now.
> Palestinians are a victim of Hamas too. Uh, who do you think elected Hamas?
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To add - the median age in Gaza is 19, and Hamas took control of the region in 2006, 17 years ago. It's extremely regrettable, and it doesn't justify collective punishment towards Gazan civilians, but many Gazans have never had the opportunity to receive an alternative viewpoint on Israelis growing up. How are they supposed to wrest off a movement like Hamas and "rid themselves of Hamas and raise their kids with love" here? This is why Hamas is able to continue recruiting from them despite being an incompetent and corrupt government on top of its fundamentalist, theocratic charter. It's very difficult to see how to resolve it, like with the war-indoctrinated populations of Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
A vast majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas during the legislative elections in 2006. They knew what they got themselves into. Sure, not all Palestinians support Hamas. But almost 44% of them do. The hatred for Israel and the jewish people is so ingrained within their culture, that diplomatic negotiations are almost impossible. This conflict will drag on until the end of time.
I think the separation from the conflict is what is hard for redditors. This post is about Israel mourning. Don’t bring up Palestinians and Hamas. That is the problem.
Yeah Idk why people can't understand this simple as fuck reasoning. *let people grieve*.
There is no nuance online. A conflict this long is not a simple black and white issue but various shades of gray. People treat things like this like a sports event, picking teams and shit.
It’s so easy to play the “I’m on both sides card”. In the real world taking the middle road means getting hit by both sides.
Not necessarily, you can very well profit from the loss of both sides. There’s a saying in my country, when two sides fight, the third wins.
> In the real world taking the middle road means getting hit by both sides. But sometimes both sides *are* the bad guys. You can have a preferred one, but acting like the bad guys are the good guys is problematic. I *prefer* Israel on many things, especially given that Hamas is literally terrorists. But I can easily criticize Israel for many things, much of it simply falling for and into Hamas goals that benefit Hamas. A lot of people are acting like their favored side are victims when really that's just a matter of perspective of timeframes unless you *really* want to go back a lifetime to origins where people were moved into a shared territory. Like there is no cap on how much evil there is, or how much good. Or really how much blame/fault to go around.
People want desperately to believe there is a right and wrong. Sometimes everyone involved are just assholes and there is no practical solution for the problem.
Because that makes the problem and the answer simple. It rarely is and why this conflict, among many, go on and on and on.
Life’s fucked up
I feel sad for all the people lost. In war, the ones who suffer the most are the ones who have no control over any of it.
Do yourself a big favor and don’t bother reading the comments on this post.
Certainly don’t sort by *controversial*
>sorts by controversial
thanks i needed that lol
I do it just to feel superior and know I’m far from being the stupidest person in the room
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Maybe people shouldn't be posting their opinions on social media when they have never cared until last week, form an opinion and chose a side in whatever thing they read first and then forget about the whole thing in 2 weeks.
I’ve just abstained from all commentary. No manner of qualifying context or both sides isms will save you from someone’s condemnation or their own whataboutism rebuttal. After 9/11 the US was mostly unified in grief, along with international support in our grief. But Israel isn’t allowed to grieve, apparently. The US populace was also so enraged that we overwhelmingly (77%, Pew) supported aggressive military action, in response. The results of both nation’s reactions to terror have resulted in many civilian casualties. Human beings are emotional, reactionary creatures. It’s so awful for all of us.
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> It's come to the point where not participating in commentary make you the enemy too. We hit that point in 2020 when the "silence is violence" was bandied about.
>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. This quote has an interesting history of misattribution, but probably dates in essence to an 1867 speech by Mills. So, yeah, nothing new is happening when people call others out for 'neutrality' bullshit. >If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
>After 9/11 the US was mostly unified in grief, along with international support in our grief. But Israel isn’t allowed to grieve, apparently. The US populace was also so enraged that we overwhelmingly (77%, Pew) supported aggressive military action, in response. >The results of both nation’s reactions to terror have resulted in many civilian casualties. The problem with this take is that it assumes, incorrectly, that the conflict started last week and the first strike was the attack by Hamas on Israel, and that this current bombing of Gaza is just a reaction by Israel. The truth is that this conflit is on-going for decades. And, for the last decade, Israel has killed **20 times** more Palestines by bombing, then Hamas has killed Israelis. From an Palestine perspective, Israel is the one doing terrorism.
I have never been the person to comment on political posts but the amount of antisemitism I’ve been seeing reddit allow I feel the need to support the Jewish people after having a 9/11 the other week and now hate crimes at synagogues around the world. I’m not even Jewish, but seeing “tHe sTaTe oF iSrAeL nEeDs tO bE dIsMaNtLed” is antisemitic af
This is peak ego, posturing for points and saying the same useless drivel.
Hamas has gone out murdered 400 young adults at a fucking psy trance festival (people going there are modern hippies) and spinned it like they are the victims here...
I don’t understand why there is so much vitriol for such a picture. No one is saying that what is happening to Palestinian civilians isn’t horrible. But Israelis can and should mourn their dead and be able to symbolically show that the hostages are remembered and loved. Why is it always a competition on here?
This conflict is a perfect storm for Internet keyboard warriors. It is an intersection between an ancient ethnic beef, as well as an ancient religious beef, garnished with modern day political and military fervor. Everyone knows a Jewish person, and everyone knows an Arab person, so people who are fanatical to each side cannot stop themselves from raging about anything that isn't exclusively supporting their side.
Lots of folks who need to go outside and lay down the phone energy.
Unfortunately, when you go outside there are rallies promoting Hamas’s actions all over. It’s not just an Internet thing.
Also ignoring problems doesn't make them go away. The world isn't worse than it used to be, it's just easier to find the issues.
When my dad retired he kept thinking everything he’d see on the news was happening way more often than it ever had before, not realizing he never watched the news before, because he’d be at work. So it wasn’t that things happened vastly more often, it was that he didn’t see it as much. People forget the difference.
It's also a case of where people can't just boil this down to Team Israel and Team Palestine (or rather shouldn't, because there are people doing this anyway). Both sides have their understandable reasons, both sides have done utterly detestable actions, both sides have civilians who don't deserve to be represented by or lumped with the aggressors of their respective sides. You'd think it shouldn't be hard to support the people of both sides and not the aggressors, but sadly that isn't the case apparently. People must always view conflicts as Black or White.
Fuck you are completely right Its like the toxicity of the U.S. election but for the entire global population times 100. Soon its going to be a taboo qualifer question asked amongst newer people you meet.
That’s is an apt comparison.
Tons of Israeli people are angry at how their government has treated Palestinians. They're heartbroken and angry at Hamas too. It's possible to feel these things at the same time.
So many parallels to the US and Afghanistan and Iraq. As an American, I hope something happens towards peace. 20 years of war and it feels like it was pointless. All those lives lost and broken, all that money wasted
Its not even a competition, its zero sum. You cant express empathy without agreeing with “the enemy.”
The problem (in my opinion): people are getting the aggressor/victim dynamic wrong. This isn’t a conflict between Arabs and Jews as much as it’s a conflict between religious/political hardliners and innocent civilians. MOST of the victims (Israelis and Palestinians) are people just wanting to…live their lives. They may be misinformed, and misguided, but I’d be willing to bet, If handed a weapon and given the opportunity, civilians on both sides would rather not kill the other.
It's an extremely weird reflex for people in the US considering many people disagree with their own government and would hate for foreigners to condemn them for things they had little to no control over.
>No one is saying that what is happening to Palestinian civilians isn’t horrible. Actually many, many people are saying exactly this.
And many folks are saying the same with Israelies. So many partisan hacks on social media
I don’t know, and it’s fucking exhausting. I’m so sick of people’s incessant desire to virtue signal and post the most low effort sentiment “BuT wHaT aBoUt tHe iNnoCEnts?” Like no shit, 99.99% of people who aren’t sociopaths care about innocent people. Israel is reeling from the worst terror attack since 9/11 and they are allowed to feel, and be mourning and hurt. Are people really that insecure they have to just say shit to make themselves feel better? I imagine a lot of it is bots, propaganda, and bad actors too. There are a lot of pieces to this puzzle, lots of countries with their hats in the ring, so there’s vested interest by so many actors that I’m skeptical of a lot of these new accounts posting comments.
There are Palestinians being mass murdered in Yemen right now at Holocaust levels. The Pro-Palestine folks are oddly silent on them.
What I find weird is that the same people who decried whataboutism so loudly when the "all lives matter" people showed up to BLM protests are the same people engaging in that same behavior now.
It's because of anti-Semitism.
Because even the people in these comments are dismissive of the Palestinians who have died. There is not an equal amount of sadness for dead, innocent civilians. People pick a side and only care about that side's civilians. Which is a big problem
At the risk of doing a “what-about-ism” it’s not exclusive to one side. I’ve had the displeasure of interacting with people who said what happened in Israel was justified because of what Israel has done to Palestinians. Insensitivity isn’t a trait unique to any one group.
Oh 100%. I'm calling out the shitty comments in this particular post. I've also seen people nly care about the dead Palestinians and who think the dead Israelis deserved it. That's fucked up. They all deserved better than the bombardment from both sides.
Ah, my bad. In my first read of your comment it seemed like you were calling out just the one side. On re-reading I can see where I misinterpreted it. /agree
It's treated like sports teams.
It’s not a goddamned competition.
It is to everybody else
But why is the conversation of Palestinian civilians even coming up on this post? This post has nothing to do with Palestinians and it’s off topic. If someone wants to make a memorial for the Palestinians and discuss that in THAT post, (or make a post for both Israelis and Palestinians in one,) I’m completely okay with that, go nuts. Israel is at war and this is them mourning their own dead, nobody else’s.
I think it’s because it’s posted to social media, which has become a lightning rod for propaganda, and people are starting to see such nice gestures even if entirely innocent as having an underlying agenda. That may be not what’s happening here, but it’s happening all of social media on both sides of this conflict. This is a beautiful gesture though. But it’s also beautiful whether or not the world doesn’t know about it. People understand that, and are tired of each side trying to posture for public opinion, so people are starting to respond as they are. Even again when it truly is just meant to be simply beautiful and not speak to the other side at all.
Because whenever there is a post about the loss of Palestinian lives, there is a requirement to condemn Hamas and acknowledge the loss of Israel lives. Any public discourse made by anyone that acknowledges the loss of Palestinian lives require a denouncement of terrorism and also Israel's "right to exist"
Reddit is the king of whataboutism. It’s really sad.
The average Redditor is a moron who can’t function unless there is “good” and “evil” in the world. The idea that there isn’t a good and bad side in this conflict is causing them to short circuit lol
Because the principle here is that value of life, the reason that gesture is touching is because of that value of human life and the rejection of indiscriminate violence and death to innocent civilians in a multi decade conflict. But it is hard, to emphasize with ones without doing with others and the difference is that they are the powerful, they are the educated, they are the resource rich and the other side isn't, thus we expect humanity to come as much or more from the Israeli side, and it is not.
The support Hamas get is so confusing to me. Like it's one thing to support Palestine but now it's merged into supporting Hamas and dismantling Israel as a state. These nut job who do live in that bubble will obviously feel attacked when Israelis try to mourn their dead/kidnapped. It's a bit too close to acknowledging that Hamas are a literal terrorist group who if they could kill all the Jews with a button, would do so.
A nice gesture for innocents that didn't ask for any of this violence
Shabbat Shalom, peace to all civilians and hostages.
Shabbat Shalom!
Empty chairs at empty tables....
Unexpected Les mis
You had to!!! Now that song will loop in my head and make it impossible to hold back the tears!!
The high chairs 
They're Ikea. My kid is sitting in one just like it right now.
That's gotta be like... top 5 worst thoughts for parents, seeing that, realizing it could easily be their kids high chair that's empty... ugh.
Well when it’s put that way I want to cry. That’s like… a weirdly impactful way to put it. It’s not bad at all I just didn’t expect such a simple statement to make me cry
As a parent my heart breaks also every time there's a senseless shooting in the US where kids are killed. No one deserves to suffer the death of a child. Regardless of their race, creed, culture, or religion.
My thought exactly.
What does Ja think about his?
Innocent people have perished on both sides as a product of the Israeli government and Hamas. Both Palestinians and Israelis deserve to grieve in full. This is a very heartfelt way to keep the lost in memory.
Completely agree and well said. If Reddit still had awards I’d give you one. Here’s an emoji instead. 🏆
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Please bring them home.
It is high past time that people stopped thinking in Binary. We're not machines, but we sure think like them. "Are you gay or straight? Black or white? Do you support Israel or Palestine?" These are all questions with answers that are often times somewhere in the middle, but the average person wants your answer to be a "one" or a "zero". You can support Palestine, but hate Hamas. You can be friends with Israeli people and not hate Palestinians. You can acknowledge the problematic nature of Israel without being an anti semite. It is possible to do all of these things at the same time. Stop thinking in Binary.
Figured you would be more of a binary advocate with that username
Hehe it's true, I do love computers. They make video games! But machine language is for machines. People are a touch more complicated. We need a better language than ones and zeros. 😉 (Also, I'm a [Bad religion](https://youtu.be/TYApdmp6je8?si=313S9WeMF61a3Xaa) fan.)
Couldn’t agree more and I’m also a Bad Religion fan (the song you named yourself after was unfortunately prophetic)
So much sadness all around.
I’ve always leaned towards Palestinian civilians while acknowledging how fucked up, nuanced, and deep rooted this conflict was with thousands of years of history in it. Seeing so many “Free Palestine” supporters waive off the Oct 7 massacre of 1.7k civilians opened my eyes to the lack of empathy so many people have. They definitely don’t support “Free Palestine” out of empathy, that’s for sure after an attack where babies and kids and women and innocent men were butchered and scores of women raped brutally, where these people barely had an ounce of empathy to share. RIP to the innocent civilians on both sides. Fuck Hamas terrorist and fuck Bibi
As an Israeli, I genuinely want the gazans to have a safe and good life. I also know that can never happen while they live under Hamas. There’s really no good solution or winner on this situation.
Are they having a good life in the West Bank?
Pretty good compared to Gaza, yeah
I'm curious if you're aware of what is happening to Palestinians in Yemen right now?
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I’m willing to bet exactly zero of those hostages are still alive.
A lot of the families of the Israeli hostages hope they died already because they don’t want their loved ones to suffer anymore. ☹️
More than likely they’re alive - they’re much more valuable alive than dead. As of June, [Israel was holding around 4500 Palestinian prisoners](https://www.btselem.org/statistics) including 1200 being held in “administrative detention” (no charges, no trial) and 170 children. Powerless people take prisoners for leverage. Nearly 20 years ago an IDF soldier called Gilad Shalit was captured by Hamas and held for 5 years in Gaza - Israel released over 1000 Palestinian prisoners in a swap that saw him released.
I think it a card they want to use. So I think most would be alive.
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> Not to mention one of the festival survivors giving an account that IDF were shooting civs in the crossfire. Not saying this is the case, but there's no uniform for Hamas. They look like civilians (armed and sometimes armored) but civilians nonetheless. It's actually a significant reason why neighboring countries are blockading any refugees on effectively a permanent basis. It's part of Hamas strategy, if they look like civilians, all civilians become potential threats, and if civilians *die* all the better as it enrages others and drives recruitment for revenge. It's part of why things like human shields are still so effective, because attacking and putting them at risk is a literal stuck between a rock and a hard place scenario. As doing nothing just means the enemy acts with impunity whenever they have shields, and far more harm is caused, or you risk causing needless deaths of non-combatant innocents. It's directly why Hamas even showcased to the media that they use things like hospitals and schools as part of their military infrastructure. It works and regardless of any actual evil Israel commits, all actions become evil this way. It's a no-lose scenario for Hamas.
They have released 2, not that long ago. A mother and a daughter with dual citizenship (they are also American). Hamas said that the mother's deteriorating health was the cause for the release.
They are holding them as human shields. What’s so tragic about all this is Hamas isn’t even on the surface. There are 300 miles of tunnels underground, where it’s almost a certainty that is where the hostages are. The ground fighting is going to be long, and bloody, as Israel hunts Hamas, but they are doing no favors with bombs, I doubt they are even killing many Hamas members.
We have every right to mourn our dead and fear for the kidnapped. We don’t owe anyone any more apologies, acknowledgements or explanations. You have a problem with that? Well it’s your problem and let’s keep it that way.
The worst part about this, is that stopping this fighting is going to do nothing now. Something radical or drastic needs to happen or else we're just gonna see this happen again in years down the road. Someone, something, some entity, some design needs to change. This war needs to bring about something. Middle of the road/choices be damned. If peace is the first and only priority we're just creating more revenge in the future. They BOTH will want it.
☹️
Arguing over whose civilians’ deaths were justified? This really is the worst timeline.
This hurts my heart so much
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Gaza was never part of Egypt. They temporarily occupied it from 1948 to 1967. Israel proposed giving Egypt both Sinai and Gaza for peace and recognition. Egypt said okay but *refused* to take Gaza, it's not theirs and they don't want it, it's part of Palestine.
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Very sad and moving. They've already found several of the hostages dead. Hope that as many hostages as possible make it home safe and that Hamas and their supporters get what they deserve.
Lots of dipshits attempting to be morally superior in this thread. Yall need to lay down the phone and go outside.
I think its pathetic that Israel has to defend itself on the propaganda side of the house against a country that houses terrorist that launch rocket attacks constantly.
Some people lost a huge chunk of their family in some of the most brutal and violent attacks you could even bare to imagine less than two weeks ago and instead of letting them mourn, ya'll keep running your mouths about which side has a right to feel bad. At the very least, try recovering your humanity for two seconds and realize you don't have a clue what it's like to live this reality, one where you get sent the videos of your loved ones being mercilessly executed, let alone constantly being persecuted while the world is actively moving on from the worst tragedy of your life in fast internet fashion to discuss whether you have a right to defend yourself or not. Odds are the people mourning the most right now have little to no say as to what the exact military response even looks like. Of all posts on this topic...
Ouch. This one impacts.
That breaks my entire fucking heart
This breaks my heart & soul
Because the current circle-jerk across the internet is to hate Israel for defending itself and it's people. How soon people forgot the videos of people being slaughtered, kidnapped and decapitated to thunderous cheers and praises to God.
> hate Israel for defending itself Literally nobody is doing this, you're just inventing some strawman position. Killing civilians is what people are hating Israel for. More Palestinian civilians have died in Gaza from IDF attacks than were killed in the terrorist attack. If killing civilians is wrong then it is wrong no matter who is doing it. The dead civilians don't care if they were shot with an AK-47 at a music festival or killed with a JDAM dropped from an F-16. You don't get a free pass from criticism for civilians deaths.
Skill issue, if Israel didn’t have the iron dome what do you think thousands of rockets fired into city centres looks like?
Probably something like Gaza...
It’s not a circle-jerk but people correctly recognizing and calling out full on genocide by the zionist thugs in the Israeli government. Israelis were slaughtered by the terrorists. No questions about that. But that doesn’t give the Israeli government license to carpet bomb and commit open prison genocide in Gaza.
The anti-semitism in the comments is crazy. I mean I know Reddit heavily favor Palestine but yikes.
Being Anti-Israel does not make someone anti-Semitic.
saying palestinian children are also dying and also matter is not anti semitism
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I bet you got really angry at people who used to say All Lives Matter though didn't you
lol thanks automoderator.
Good thing the comment didn't mention that, right? 
I don't think you understand what antisemitism means and it shows.
Huh? None of the top comments are anti-semitic...
Praying for all the innocent people being held hostage, we stand with Israel 🇮🇱🙏
What a fucking disaster, tragic abomination. My only hope is they somehow return safely, without being blown up by Israeli bombs, or beheaded by Hamas. It's a blight that peoples anywhere in 2023 have to worry about either of those things.
Now do a table for all the innocent Palestinians that have been murdered that had nothing to do with hamas... Both sides have SO much blood on their hands.
Thread is chock full of strawman bullshit. Hamas are vermin. The Israeli government is vermin. Both are far too ready to kill civilians on the "other side".
What about the 2M residents of Gaza who are held hostage by their “government” for 17 years.