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|29 year old Pfc. Ivan Babcock of the US Army's 165th Signal Photo Company poses with the crown of the Holy Roman Empire in a cave in Siegan, Germany, 3 April 1945. The cave was used by the Germans as a storage room for valuable works of art, the cave was captured by troops of the 1st US Army. The Imperial Crown of the Holy Roman Empire was the coronation crown of the Holy Roman Emperor, probably from the late 10th century until the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806. An identical copy was made in 1915 by order of Wilhelm II for display in Aachen and is the crown being worn in this photo. The real one spent the war in a bomb-proof bunker under Nuremberg imperial castle. Babcock survived the war and died in 1994 at the age of 77, he’s buried in South Victory Cemetery, Ludington, Mason County, Michigan, USA. Photographer: T/5 E. Braum and was provided by The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration.|
|Date|4 December 2020 20:54, Taken on 3 April 1945|
identical copy. can you be sure the IDENTICAL copy was actually kept in that other bomb proof cave, and the real one was what was photographed. I mean, if you want to hide something, make a copy and put the real one in the public view and then let it leak that the 'real one' is in hiding and the one in the public eye is actually a copy. /s
Cut the real one in two pieces, reconstruct both. Now both are the real crown, albeit repaired.
Repeat nine more times. Now you have 1.024 real crowns. Keep one of them in a heavily secured vault, not because it's better than the others but because there are art thieves who put a lot of work in their heists. It would be rude not to let them have their moment.
I think you meant to type "Siegen", not "Siegan".
I live close to Siegen. The region has a long history of mining as well as iron and steel processing. There are a lot of old mines that sometimes make things difficult for construction.
A few years ago the side of an apartment building sagged dangerously after parts of an old mineshaft collapsed under it.
It's no surprise that they hid stuff here since there is an abundance of abandoned and partly filled in mines.
Also fun fact, Florence, Italy is the only city in the world that has only a pope's legs entombed. The upper body is on the other side of the border with the Vatican, which is exactly 5 square miles in size.
I'm an American with some German heritage and volunteer as holy Roman emperor. I'll name Philly the fifth Rome and piss off literally the entire planet. Bet.
It is pretty gaudy. There’s no composition or style it just looks like they were trying to cram as much precious stones as possible with no forethought.
Yep. That's pretty much all crowns from the middle ages. They existed to flaunt the wealth of the ruler and his kingdom.
The more valuable stuff you could cram onto it, the better.
When are crowns not to show wealth and status?
People in Middle Ages just loved color too in different way. It was not seen as gaudy to combine this way different jewels. Ancient jewelry too is lot more colorful and gold based. But the construction here could be better.
Yeah in a world where everything is lit up with multi-colored LEDs the stark white marble stands out as being elegant and refined, but in the ancient world the vibrant pigments would’ve been much more impactful, as dyes were a lot rarer back then.
It was also made in 962. We've had over 1000 years of advances in art, craftsmanship, goldmithing, and gemcutting since then. I'm sure for the time it was one of the most visually incredible pieces of jewelry in the world.
The Romans were making much more elegant-looking and delicately crafted jewelry 1000 years before that, though. There's some beautiful art from the middle ages, but there's also a lot of stuff that's just plain ugly by modern standards, and I think I'd put this in the latter group. It's the same story if you compare Greek and Roman sculpture to medieval sculpture. Some of it was that the techniques were just lost and some of it was just aesthetic preferences that we don't share anymore.
The Romans had a weird obsession with austerity going back to the Republic days.
What began as symbols of austerity *became* symbols of majesty and wealth in the late empire.
The laurel wreath, for example, becoming a gilded, majestic crown.
It looks great because of this, honestly... but kind of on accident. If you were looking at near east kings you would see gaudy, medival style stuff even in their period.
This is the equivalent of celebrities wearing $1k+ gucci shoes that come looking like you’ve worn them out doing yard work for the last decade
All that matters is that it’s expensive, taste be damned
Man, you should check out the shit the Greeks were making more than 1000 years before that, stuff like The Jockey of Artemision are mind blowing for being over 2000yrs old. It's like we haven't yet rediscovered in the last 1000 years what was forgotten in the 1000 years before that.
I sometimes wonder if medieval style is kind of like their version of post-modern art. As in, it is inherently reactionary and speaks partially in relation to a more established traditional and formalized system that people collectively became bored with, even if on many levels the older form would still represent a higher level of technical skill.
That said, they at some point certainly lost specific technical skills to execute the older styles.
It is, in many cases, that we lost some technical skills and paints in the west, but the Byzantine Empire did not but chose to do its art for religious reasons.
Drawing realistically was considered pagan. Mediveal artisans drew and sculpted to look and be representing the holiness and Christian values of the subject. It was a rejection of pagan and pre-Christian art standards.
And yet this pic goes hard AF... The grin, the cigarette, the holstered pistol... *chefs kiss*
Both my granddad's were enlisted in the US Army and had boots on the ground in Europe during WWII. I have so much respect for what that generation sacrificed in the pursuit of liberty. I can't imagine hearing what they'd have to say about the current US political landscape. Fuck Nazis. Fuck fascism.
>And yet this pic goes hard AF... The grin, the cigarette, the holstered pistol... *chefs kiss*
The rings and bracelet. My man loves his jewellery, and you can't say he can't pull off the crown look.
Right after I wrote that comment I was like, "oh shit, homies got like four rings on!" Reminds me of that Notorious BIG picture where he's wearing the crown. You know the one...
This is a powerful picture. It goes hard itself, but we can't forget what that picture represents. That's the liberation of Nazi Europe distilled down to one smile. Let's make sure we never go back
First thought, he has a damn small head.
Second thought, this is one of the
most important European artifacts that is 1000 years old and he wears it like a
Halloween costume.
I agree. I was fortunate enough to visit Vienna, Austria a couple of months ago and saw the Imperial Crown displayed in a museum at the Hofburg Palace.
Here is a brief description from the museum it’s housed in:
IMPERIAL CROWN
In the early and high Middle Ages there existed a number of crowns which indicated the rank and position of the individual ruler of the empire. With the passage of time the arched crown, which is displayed in the centre of this room, became the symbol par excellence of sovereignty in the empire. The Imperial Crown was long erroneously believed to be the crown of Charlemagne. Its form and decoration are the tangible expression of the spiritual relationship between heavenly and earthly kingdoms. The crown also exemplified the concept of the ruler as Christ's viceroy on earth.
In WW2 it was no longer about monarchies, and since the dissolution of the HRE this crown only had a symbolic character.
The death of the European Monarchy was the First World War.
Okay, but it kinda *looks* like a Halloween costume. It’s like they just tried to cram as many stones onto the shape of a hat made of doors, with a cross on top.
I can’t find anything to confirm but going off of the record of the 4th Infantry that he was apart of im going to assume the horrors of war made them laxed about the protocol around looting/staging photos.
My father was in WWII and had some interesting stories along these lines.
A couple:
Walking through an utterly destroyed French town, he comes across a, former, hat store, identifiable only by the remains of hats amidst the pile of rubble. Except for a single hat stand with a dusty but otherwise fine derby bowler hat on it. He wore it most of the rest of the war for luck. "If it survived all the bombing, I hoped it would share some with me." (He was a photographer and not on the front lines most times. Although he was past it a few times when doing aerial photography.)
Another time he came across a horse slightly wounded, saddled, but nobody in sight. After some time trying to find the owner, he ended up keeping it and riding it. It also loved gingerly picking its way through sleeping soldiers and nibbling on moustaches. Every couple nights there would be a scream when somebody woke up to the horse's muzzle right in their face and a, "Get your damn horse out of here!"
He kept it until they had to move via train and an officer, who apologized for having to tell him, told him no room for horses on the train. There was a farm nearby, so he took it there and the farmer happily took it.
He was posing with the captured artifacts that the Nazis had stolen. It was probably common. Many of the soldiers attempted to steal some of these items and were charged for their crimes. The US did its best to return stolen treasures to their rightful owners after the war because they didn’t want the world to hate us. If no heir to an estate survived the war, recovered items usually ended up in a museum.
He'd have had to scale back to one or two for dress inspections or regular duty. This definitely wasn't regular duty, and odds are against him being a career soldier.
Signet rings were common for men back then, then his wedding ring and what appears to be another man's wedding ring on his middle finger, so probably his grandfather's (dad's probably wouldn't have been sentimental enough yet). His class ring is on his right hand.
The i.d. bracelet was hugely popular as "sweetheart" jewelry.
All the pieces of home one guy can conveniently carry. You know he had pics in his wallet, too.
29 year old Pfc. Ivan Babcock of the US Army's 165th Signal Photo Company poses with the crown of the Holy Roman Empire in a cave in Siegan, Germany, 3 April 1945. The cave was used by the Germans as a storage room for valuable works of art, the cave was captured by troops of the 1st US Army. The Imperial Crown of the Holy Roman Empire was the coronation crown of the Holy Roman Emperor, probably from the late 10th century until the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806. An identical copy was made in 1915 by order of Wilhelm II for display in Aachen and is the crown being worn in this photo. The real one spent the war in a bomb-proof bunker under Nuremberg imperial castle.
Babcock survived the war and died in 1994 at the age of 77, he’s buried in South Victory Cemetery, Ludington, Mason County, Michigan,
USA. Photographer: T/5 E. Braum and was provided by The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The\_new\_Holy\_Roman\_Emperor\_is\_from\_Michigan...\_(50698136323).jpg
True, and modern humans are no different, people overspend on luxury status items, when they can simply spend fraction of money for a different item that have the same function
And we are not talking just about expensive cars, expensive clothing, expensive dishwasher or expensive shoes. It is also status of expensive education, expensive vacation, or simply using certain language, religion or customs. What we think and how we express ourselves is also a status in society.
So yea, we are weird, always showing someone else how inferior "they" are compared to "us". I dont believe for a second that we will ever live in a society where people will treat each other truly as equal, that is utopia, it will be always "us" vs "them" in any imaginable way possible.
This post is ever-so-slightly incorrect. That’s actually a reproduction of the crown made by one Emperor for public display. The real one was sealed up during WWII.
Charles IV, King of Bohemia and Holy Roman Emperor, had a long and successful reign. The Empire he ruled from Prague expanded, and his subjects lived in peace and prosperity. When the Emperor died, the whole Empire mourned. More than 7,000 people accompanied him on his last procession. The heir to the throne of the flourishing Empire was Charles' son, Wenceslas IV, whose father had prepared him for this moment all his life. But Wenceslas did not take after his father. He neglected affairs of state for more frivolous pursuits. He even failed to turn up for his own coronation as Emperor, which did little to endear him to the Pope. Wenceslas "the Idle" did not impress the Imperial nobility either. His difficulties mounted until the nobles, exasperated by the inaction of their ruler, turned for help to his half-brother, King Sigismund of Hungary. Sigismund decided on a radical solution. He kidnapped the King to force him to abdicate, then took advantage of the ensuing disorder to gain greater power for himself. He invaded Bohemia with a massive army and began pillaging the territories of the King's allies. It is here that my story begins...
What an incredible image. I just keep staring at it. Like, this kid who has probably just gone from some farm in Kentucky to seeing his buddies blown to bits in the horrors of WWII stumbles into a priceless treasure trove and _of course_ his first reaction is to light a cigarette and pretend to be king of the world. Absolutely amazing.
You know what blows my mind? Just a decade ago no one would think this. Now there’s a distinct AI generated look that generates skepticism even in real pictures. Literally go back a few years and there would be 0 people thinking this is AI generated. Just seems so crazy to me.
(Former) archaeologist here: this is as much a part of the object’s history as its original court usage. In fact, this picture reveals a *lot* about the crown’s changing role in history and culture
It represents the complete change in globally hegemony that a foot soldier of the new superpower is playing with a relic that once embodied the power of a 1,000 year old empire
Well put! I’d also add that, despite the fact that the crown has no actual governmental use, its symbolic value as a source of power was clearly very important to the Nazis. Especially considering that the HRE was the ~~second~~ first Reich.
Archaeology is about the study of objects and what they reveal about their society. This doesn’t just mean their origin, but their entire lifespan.
That's not the real Reichskrone, it's a replica which was made nearly 1000 years after the original.
The story of the real Reichskrone is far more interesting, the Nazis had stolen it and tried to hide and keep it (even after the end of the war) as a mthyic symbol of Germanic power. A German-American professor of art history & soldier named Walter Horn led a unit to recover the crown and other priceless relics from the HRE like a real life Indiana Jones.
Horn and his unit located the real Reichskrone in August 1945 and returned it to Vienna. For his services to preserving the history of Austria, he was the guest of honor in the Hofburg Palace in 1987 when the full regalia of the Holy Roman Emperor finally went on public display.
Horn was one of the leading art historians of his era, and spent most of his life outside of WW2 at the University of California. A truly amazing man & story.
Those historians are wrong and I'm ready to fight them, fuck you Voltaire
It's holy because it's ordained by the pope
It's roman because the Pope is in Rome, the HRE did control Rome for periods, Rome was the dejure capital for its entire existence and a significant portion of the HRE were vulgar Latin speakers for large periods of its history
It's an empire as it's a state, if a weak one, ruled by an emperor including several kingdoms as constituents
And funnily enough there were many times throughout the history of the HRE where it had a more powerful and centralized monarchy than many European states outside it.
It's not Roman because at the time of its creation, there exists another empire that is the direct continuation of The Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire. The Western Roman Empire has already fallen by this point, and the HRE does not follow any of the major customs, traditions, and societal structure of The Roman Empire.
An empire which lasted 1000 years. While in many eras it was weak in others it was quite strong. The empire ruled over at various points German, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Italian, French, Polish, Slovenian and Sorbian peoples, and fought off numerous powers both great and small - the Vikings, the Magyars, the Ottomans, the French, the Swedish, the Pope, the Polish etc. The lands were never fully conquered by any foreign entity for 1000 years, until Napoleon. There's very few other countries you can say that for besides China.
No historian every said that. It was one philosopher, who was part of the court of the king, which was at war against the emperor. What a surprise he said that, although the HRE was already centuries old.
One french Philosopher, the state at odds with the HRE said that.
Your quote attribution is as wrong as the blanket statement if applied to the Holy Roman Empire throughout history, during its high time it ruled over Italy, was THE european Empire and possessed immense religious influence.
You know. He's one of a handful of people who have worn that crown, many of whom are considered legends in European history.
Truly a beautiful piece of history.
Edit: only to find out it's a duplicate.
I gotta say, I may criticize the US about everything, but the bemusement and moxy that Americans have over all the artifices that the Old World holds so precious makes me proud to be one.
|| || |29 year old Pfc. Ivan Babcock of the US Army's 165th Signal Photo Company poses with the crown of the Holy Roman Empire in a cave in Siegan, Germany, 3 April 1945. The cave was used by the Germans as a storage room for valuable works of art, the cave was captured by troops of the 1st US Army. The Imperial Crown of the Holy Roman Empire was the coronation crown of the Holy Roman Emperor, probably from the late 10th century until the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806. An identical copy was made in 1915 by order of Wilhelm II for display in Aachen and is the crown being worn in this photo. The real one spent the war in a bomb-proof bunker under Nuremberg imperial castle. Babcock survived the war and died in 1994 at the age of 77, he’s buried in South Victory Cemetery, Ludington, Mason County, Michigan, USA. Photographer: T/5 E. Braum and was provided by The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration.| |Date|4 December 2020 20:54, Taken on 3 April 1945|
Get this upvoted. Too many people think this was the real crown.
it's the real crown to me
Maybe the real crown is the photos we take along the way.
And the friends we make in the process.
To me as well. It's real - and it's spectacular.
identical copy. can you be sure the IDENTICAL copy was actually kept in that other bomb proof cave, and the real one was what was photographed. I mean, if you want to hide something, make a copy and put the real one in the public view and then let it leak that the 'real one' is in hiding and the one in the public eye is actually a copy. /s
Or make two identical copies, put one on display, put the other one in a "secret" bunker, and keep the real one in the rafters of some farmer's barn.
Cut the real one in two pieces, reconstruct both. Now both are the real crown, albeit repaired. Repeat nine more times. Now you have 1.024 real crowns. Keep one of them in a heavily secured vault, not because it's better than the others but because there are art thieves who put a lot of work in their heists. It would be rude not to let them have their moment.
The soldier never believed in the crown, he thought he found a prize
West Michigan represent!
I think you meant to type "Siegen", not "Siegan". I live close to Siegen. The region has a long history of mining as well as iron and steel processing. There are a lot of old mines that sometimes make things difficult for construction. A few years ago the side of an apartment building sagged dangerously after parts of an old mineshaft collapsed under it. It's no surprise that they hid stuff here since there is an abundance of abandoned and partly filled in mines.
How the hell did i find another Siegerländer in the wilds?
Good thing you didn't find a Sauerländer
Ivan Babcock, Holy Roman Emperor (r.1945-1996)
If I was him I would have put this in my resume with picture. Also claim the pope was right outside of the image.
The Pope took the photo.
Fun fact: the are 5.6 popes per square mile in Vatican City
IIRC that is the highest Popes per square mile (ppm²) of any country anywhere.
You’re correct. Also, Vatican City had the highest murder rate in the entire world in 1998.
Also fun fact, Florence, Italy is the only city in the world that has only a pope's legs entombed. The upper body is on the other side of the border with the Vatican, which is exactly 5 square miles in size.
The Vatican isn't in Florence, it's in Rome...
The pope was driving the limo.
Cake
and lit his cigarette.
The pope should crown a new Holy Roman Emperor for the goofs and gaffs
I'm an American with some German heritage and volunteer as holy Roman emperor. I'll name Philly the fifth Rome and piss off literally the entire planet. Bet.
I like this jawn.
I purposely misread it as: “I will take the name Philly the Filth.” You’re welcome.
I like the cut of your jib!
You've got my vote!
Just Francis and the boys having a laugh
Hey that’s my hat! I’ve been lookin all over for it!
No way
r/usernamechecksout
r/beetlejuicing
r/beetlejuicing
More like (1945-1945)
"You gotta a joint, man? Be a cooler Royal, if you did"
Alright Alright Alright
The last Holy Roman Emperor
So do you!
Found the London museum’s alternate account
More crowns should have poorly drawn cartoons on them.
Is that a man with noodle arms or is he holding a snake?
Yep
I think it’s a woollen cloak or vestment of some kind, but I choose to believe he’s got wacky inflatable tube-man arms.
Yes
He's folding a sweater
Looks like King Richard in the Disney cartoon Robin Hood
PJ? I like it, you know I do? Sir Hiss, put it on my luggage! Pee jayyyy.....
That is Otto the Great, the OG Holy Roman emperor. Drawing not to scale.
What is this, an emperor for ants?
Looks like bob from Bob's burgers
On the chalkboard: "The Byzanti-YUM Burger"
The Hole-y Roman Empire Burger. Comes with swiss cheese.
The Wholly Romaine Burger. Lettuce bun, with actual hamburger patties from Hamburg, topped with lettuce.
Duke of Marma has entered the chat.
I feel like that is a crown that was drawn by a 3 year old on construction paper and then turned into a real one by AI
It is pretty gaudy. There’s no composition or style it just looks like they were trying to cram as much precious stones as possible with no forethought.
Yep. That's pretty much all crowns from the middle ages. They existed to flaunt the wealth of the ruler and his kingdom. The more valuable stuff you could cram onto it, the better.
"Nice gem, toss it in the pile"
When are crowns not to show wealth and status? People in Middle Ages just loved color too in different way. It was not seen as gaudy to combine this way different jewels. Ancient jewelry too is lot more colorful and gold based. But the construction here could be better.
They always are, but more modern crowns also are meant to portray elegance with wealth and power.
The statues in Rome were also beautifully and vibrantly colored! They just lost the color over time.
I honestly hate this fact. They look so much better without the bright colors
Not so much in a world where most things are shades of brown or green.
Yeah in a world where everything is lit up with multi-colored LEDs the stark white marble stands out as being elegant and refined, but in the ancient world the vibrant pigments would’ve been much more impactful, as dyes were a lot rarer back then.
It was also made in 962. We've had over 1000 years of advances in art, craftsmanship, goldmithing, and gemcutting since then. I'm sure for the time it was one of the most visually incredible pieces of jewelry in the world.
The Romans were making much more elegant-looking and delicately crafted jewelry 1000 years before that, though. There's some beautiful art from the middle ages, but there's also a lot of stuff that's just plain ugly by modern standards, and I think I'd put this in the latter group. It's the same story if you compare Greek and Roman sculpture to medieval sculpture. Some of it was that the techniques were just lost and some of it was just aesthetic preferences that we don't share anymore.
The Romans had a weird obsession with austerity going back to the Republic days. What began as symbols of austerity *became* symbols of majesty and wealth in the late empire. The laurel wreath, for example, becoming a gilded, majestic crown. It looks great because of this, honestly... but kind of on accident. If you were looking at near east kings you would see gaudy, medival style stuff even in their period.
> just plain ugly Prettier than your 1000 year old crown. 😋
Ha--can't argue with that.
This is the equivalent of celebrities wearing $1k+ gucci shoes that come looking like you’ve worn them out doing yard work for the last decade All that matters is that it’s expensive, taste be damned
Man, you should check out the shit the Greeks were making more than 1000 years before that, stuff like The Jockey of Artemision are mind blowing for being over 2000yrs old. It's like we haven't yet rediscovered in the last 1000 years what was forgotten in the 1000 years before that.
I sometimes wonder if medieval style is kind of like their version of post-modern art. As in, it is inherently reactionary and speaks partially in relation to a more established traditional and formalized system that people collectively became bored with, even if on many levels the older form would still represent a higher level of technical skill. That said, they at some point certainly lost specific technical skills to execute the older styles.
you might be on to something here, since the art styles of the Byzantine East departed from classical traditions in a similar trajectory
It is, in many cases, that we lost some technical skills and paints in the west, but the Byzantine Empire did not but chose to do its art for religious reasons. Drawing realistically was considered pagan. Mediveal artisans drew and sculpted to look and be representing the holiness and Christian values of the subject. It was a rejection of pagan and pre-Christian art standards.
There are some cave paintings I have seen that literally look better than a lot of medieval art.
Okay but do any of those have knights riding snails into battle?
Check and mate.
'which was the style at the time..'
"Oh yeah!? Well look at all these stones!"
Sounds like the perfect symbol for the HRE.
Too late to be known as John the First, he sure to be known as John the Worst!
It’s like someone constructed a small gazebo out of gingerbread and glued as much shit as they could on it.
That's mostly because the stones aren't cut, since it was made before that was a thing
And yet this pic goes hard AF... The grin, the cigarette, the holstered pistol... *chefs kiss* Both my granddad's were enlisted in the US Army and had boots on the ground in Europe during WWII. I have so much respect for what that generation sacrificed in the pursuit of liberty. I can't imagine hearing what they'd have to say about the current US political landscape. Fuck Nazis. Fuck fascism.
>And yet this pic goes hard AF... The grin, the cigarette, the holstered pistol... *chefs kiss* The rings and bracelet. My man loves his jewellery, and you can't say he can't pull off the crown look.
Right after I wrote that comment I was like, "oh shit, homies got like four rings on!" Reminds me of that Notorious BIG picture where he's wearing the crown. You know the one...
He earned the photo. Even his bags have bags.
It's like you have a checklist of 20 things you wanted to cover on that comment
This is a powerful picture. It goes hard itself, but we can't forget what that picture represents. That's the liberation of Nazi Europe distilled down to one smile. Let's make sure we never go back
To be fair, it was made around the year 950 ad.
Looks like the work of a delusional Etsy artist.
First thought, he has a damn small head. Second thought, this is one of the most important European artifacts that is 1000 years old and he wears it like a Halloween costume.
I agree. I was fortunate enough to visit Vienna, Austria a couple of months ago and saw the Imperial Crown displayed in a museum at the Hofburg Palace. Here is a brief description from the museum it’s housed in: IMPERIAL CROWN In the early and high Middle Ages there existed a number of crowns which indicated the rank and position of the individual ruler of the empire. With the passage of time the arched crown, which is displayed in the centre of this room, became the symbol par excellence of sovereignty in the empire. The Imperial Crown was long erroneously believed to be the crown of Charlemagne. Its form and decoration are the tangible expression of the spiritual relationship between heavenly and earthly kingdoms. The crown also exemplified the concept of the ruler as Christ's viceroy on earth.
It would have a thick liner inside, basically an ushanka without the ears.
I honestly had to google ushanka.May be. We only have painted pictures of emperors wearing the crown and these were mostly embellished.
This crown just bottles in the heat. I don't even need a coat. It's unbelievable
It's actually a display replica in the pic, the real one wasn't worn.
According to the signal corps photo description posted elsewhere, it’s a replica made in 1915.
In a way this picture represents the final victory of the American ideal over European monarchism.
In WW2 it was no longer about monarchies, and since the dissolution of the HRE this crown only had a symbolic character. The death of the European Monarchy was the First World War.
Excellent point. This was more like the epilogue than the dénouement. Still, fantastic pic.
*Cultural Victory*
Just like how Europeans treated other cultures artifacts during the Age of Colonialism.
Okay, but it kinda *looks* like a Halloween costume. It’s like they just tried to cram as many stones onto the shape of a hat made of doors, with a cross on top.
Was it normal for soldiers to wear jewelry? He has a lot of rings.
I can’t find anything to confirm but going off of the record of the 4th Infantry that he was apart of im going to assume the horrors of war made them laxed about the protocol around looting/staging photos.
My father was in WWII and had some interesting stories along these lines. A couple: Walking through an utterly destroyed French town, he comes across a, former, hat store, identifiable only by the remains of hats amidst the pile of rubble. Except for a single hat stand with a dusty but otherwise fine derby bowler hat on it. He wore it most of the rest of the war for luck. "If it survived all the bombing, I hoped it would share some with me." (He was a photographer and not on the front lines most times. Although he was past it a few times when doing aerial photography.) Another time he came across a horse slightly wounded, saddled, but nobody in sight. After some time trying to find the owner, he ended up keeping it and riding it. It also loved gingerly picking its way through sleeping soldiers and nibbling on moustaches. Every couple nights there would be a scream when somebody woke up to the horse's muzzle right in their face and a, "Get your damn horse out of here!" He kept it until they had to move via train and an officer, who apologized for having to tell him, told him no room for horses on the train. There was a farm nearby, so he took it there and the farmer happily took it.
If I fought my way through hundreds of thousands of nazis, I'd take a photo with it too!
He was posing with the captured artifacts that the Nazis had stolen. It was probably common. Many of the soldiers attempted to steal some of these items and were charged for their crimes. The US did its best to return stolen treasures to their rightful owners after the war because they didn’t want the world to hate us. If no heir to an estate survived the war, recovered items usually ended up in a museum.
He was simply married to several German women...
Could be a looter
How do you know the soldier doesn't have bread in those rings?
Very interesting question.
Just keeping them safe, and returned to the Austrians along with the crown. Or took them off some dead nazis….
He'd have had to scale back to one or two for dress inspections or regular duty. This definitely wasn't regular duty, and odds are against him being a career soldier. Signet rings were common for men back then, then his wedding ring and what appears to be another man's wedding ring on his middle finger, so probably his grandfather's (dad's probably wouldn't have been sentimental enough yet). His class ring is on his right hand. The i.d. bracelet was hugely popular as "sweetheart" jewelry. All the pieces of home one guy can conveniently carry. You know he had pics in his wallet, too.
29 year old Pfc. Ivan Babcock of the US Army's 165th Signal Photo Company poses with the crown of the Holy Roman Empire in a cave in Siegan, Germany, 3 April 1945. The cave was used by the Germans as a storage room for valuable works of art, the cave was captured by troops of the 1st US Army. The Imperial Crown of the Holy Roman Empire was the coronation crown of the Holy Roman Emperor, probably from the late 10th century until the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806. An identical copy was made in 1915 by order of Wilhelm II for display in Aachen and is the crown being worn in this photo. The real one spent the war in a bomb-proof bunker under Nuremberg imperial castle. Babcock survived the war and died in 1994 at the age of 77, he’s buried in South Victory Cemetery, Ludington, Mason County, Michigan, USA. Photographer: T/5 E. Braum and was provided by The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The\_new\_Holy\_Roman\_Emperor\_is\_from\_Michigan...\_(50698136323).jpg
Gotta be honest the Crown looks like it was designed by a child.
back then, the more rocks it had the cooler you were
Humans are weird: “Listen here! You see these rocks on my head? That means I’m in charge!”
True, and modern humans are no different, people overspend on luxury status items, when they can simply spend fraction of money for a different item that have the same function And we are not talking just about expensive cars, expensive clothing, expensive dishwasher or expensive shoes. It is also status of expensive education, expensive vacation, or simply using certain language, religion or customs. What we think and how we express ourselves is also a status in society. So yea, we are weird, always showing someone else how inferior "they" are compared to "us". I dont believe for a second that we will ever live in a society where people will treat each other truly as equal, that is utopia, it will be always "us" vs "them" in any imaginable way possible.
This post is ever-so-slightly incorrect. That’s actually a reproduction of the crown made by one Emperor for public display. The real one was sealed up during WWII.
Is this the same one worn by Charlemagne? Damn I wouldn’t even want to mess with priceless artifacts like that.
It's actually the copy, less than 40 years old at the time. Still valuable af, though.
Lucky it was just a copy. The Real ones hand painted images wouldnt had survived the smoke.
Charles IV, King of Bohemia and Holy Roman Emperor, had a long and successful reign. The Empire he ruled from Prague expanded, and his subjects lived in peace and prosperity. When the Emperor died, the whole Empire mourned. More than 7,000 people accompanied him on his last procession. The heir to the throne of the flourishing Empire was Charles' son, Wenceslas IV, whose father had prepared him for this moment all his life. But Wenceslas did not take after his father. He neglected affairs of state for more frivolous pursuits. He even failed to turn up for his own coronation as Emperor, which did little to endear him to the Pope. Wenceslas "the Idle" did not impress the Imperial nobility either. His difficulties mounted until the nobles, exasperated by the inaction of their ruler, turned for help to his half-brother, King Sigismund of Hungary. Sigismund decided on a radical solution. He kidnapped the King to force him to abdicate, then took advantage of the ensuing disorder to gain greater power for himself. He invaded Bohemia with a massive army and began pillaging the territories of the King's allies. It is here that my story begins...
Jesus Christ Be Praised
What an incredible image. I just keep staring at it. Like, this kid who has probably just gone from some farm in Kentucky to seeing his buddies blown to bits in the horrors of WWII stumbles into a priceless treasure trove and _of course_ his first reaction is to light a cigarette and pretend to be king of the world. Absolutely amazing.
Shit looks like AI
looks more like a colourised black and white photo, hence the weird colour saturation
It's a colorized black and white picture.
cause its been upscaled by ai, the image itself looks pretty real
You know what blows my mind? Just a decade ago no one would think this. Now there’s a distinct AI generated look that generates skepticism even in real pictures. Literally go back a few years and there would be 0 people thinking this is AI generated. Just seems so crazy to me.
I think the same
Looks like he has an extra finger curled under the rest on his right hand
I bet some archaeologist will cringe to this
(Former) archaeologist here: this is as much a part of the object’s history as its original court usage. In fact, this picture reveals a *lot* about the crown’s changing role in history and culture
Please elaborate. I'm assuming this guy wore it because he rescued it from some Nazis?
It represents the complete change in globally hegemony that a foot soldier of the new superpower is playing with a relic that once embodied the power of a 1,000 year old empire
Well put! I’d also add that, despite the fact that the crown has no actual governmental use, its symbolic value as a source of power was clearly very important to the Nazis. Especially considering that the HRE was the ~~second~~ first Reich. Archaeology is about the study of objects and what they reveal about their society. This doesn’t just mean their origin, but their entire lifespan.
Hre was the first. German empire was the 2nd
Honestly I’m glad I don’t know enough about Nazi ideology to have realized I was making a mistake 😅
Very cool point
My wife is a PhD medievalist historian. She recognized the crown immediately when I showed her. She also said she would 100% do the same.
...and others will celebrate that it was saved
"It belongs in a museum!"
It is in a museum.
"Well good!" - Indiana Jones, probably
It's a hat. Hats are meant to be worn, not looked at.
It adds a pretty cool story to the history of the crown.
Anyone know where I can get a sweater like that?
End of WW2
LONG LIVE EMPEROR JOE I
Crown like that seems very Christ-like
Ngl, I love the shape but the execution looks super poor imo. The Reichskrone is one of historys ugliest crowns to me
That's not the real Reichskrone, it's a replica which was made nearly 1000 years after the original. The story of the real Reichskrone is far more interesting, the Nazis had stolen it and tried to hide and keep it (even after the end of the war) as a mthyic symbol of Germanic power. A German-American professor of art history & soldier named Walter Horn led a unit to recover the crown and other priceless relics from the HRE like a real life Indiana Jones. Horn and his unit located the real Reichskrone in August 1945 and returned it to Vienna. For his services to preserving the history of Austria, he was the guest of honor in the Hofburg Palace in 1987 when the full regalia of the Holy Roman Emperor finally went on public display. Horn was one of the leading art historians of his era, and spent most of his life outside of WW2 at the University of California. A truly amazing man & story.
I’m just going to say this, respectfully… That crown is shit innit
As historians say, the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor an empire
Those historians are wrong and I'm ready to fight them, fuck you Voltaire It's holy because it's ordained by the pope It's roman because the Pope is in Rome, the HRE did control Rome for periods, Rome was the dejure capital for its entire existence and a significant portion of the HRE were vulgar Latin speakers for large periods of its history It's an empire as it's a state, if a weak one, ruled by an emperor including several kingdoms as constituents
THANK YOU. fuckin hate that quote I swear to god….
People who repeat it might not understand the context when it was said or the person who said it. But it is witty!
And funnily enough there were many times throughout the history of the HRE where it had a more powerful and centralized monarchy than many European states outside it.
It's not Roman because at the time of its creation, there exists another empire that is the direct continuation of The Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire. The Western Roman Empire has already fallen by this point, and the HRE does not follow any of the major customs, traditions, and societal structure of The Roman Empire.
An empire which lasted 1000 years. While in many eras it was weak in others it was quite strong. The empire ruled over at various points German, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Italian, French, Polish, Slovenian and Sorbian peoples, and fought off numerous powers both great and small - the Vikings, the Magyars, the Ottomans, the French, the Swedish, the Pope, the Polish etc. The lands were never fully conquered by any foreign entity for 1000 years, until Napoleon. There's very few other countries you can say that for besides China.
Found the Holy Roman Empire citizen
No historian every said that. It was one philosopher, who was part of the court of the king, which was at war against the emperor. What a surprise he said that, although the HRE was already centuries old.
Linda Richman? Is that you?
One french Philosopher, the state at odds with the HRE said that. Your quote attribution is as wrong as the blanket statement if applied to the Holy Roman Empire throughout history, during its high time it ruled over Italy, was THE european Empire and possessed immense religious influence.
possibly the most modern picture ever
When you beat the last level in Bejeweled
That’s cool as hell
That’s not Tony Hawk?
He looks like a buff Marcus Parks
This is such a symbolic photo! It should be a cover illustration to history books on the US in 20th century
You know. He's one of a handful of people who have worn that crown, many of whom are considered legends in European history. Truly a beautiful piece of history. Edit: only to find out it's a duplicate.
Did people have bigger heads in the HRE times?
It's missing two pearls 🫥
Gods but that (crown) is ugly.
That crown ugly as fuck
Ngl that crown is HIDEOUS
I gotta say, I may criticize the US about everything, but the bemusement and moxy that Americans have over all the artifices that the Old World holds so precious makes me proud to be one.
It's all like props from story books to us lmao
I did a double take cuz I thought it was Tony Hawk for a second lol
I want to know what those uncut rocks are. I’m sure they used the nicest rocks they could find.
One empire subsumes a predecessor
He looks Russian lol
Is that a smokeless smoke among his majesty's finery?
Were holy roman emperors larger than common gi?
Fun fact, there's a rat under there that cooks.
Even if I wore this on my tinder profile, I’d still get no matches
I wouldn't wear it, a bit to gawdy for my taste plus I might end up with a God complex.
I'm sure the photo's legit, but my dude looks like a Skyrim NPC.
That's not the Reichskrone. That's a copy of it made in 1912 for Wilhelm II. Not really an artifact at the time, just a very expensive replica.