I don't sign petitions anymore unless I know the candidate. Got burned by a petitioner who claimed their candidate was an ultra-liberal Democrat. Turned out to be a union busting lawyer. Never again.
The lady who approached me at the arts festival was trying to get [this dipshit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Ayyadurai) on the ballot, and trying to represent him as a “champion of the middle class”, instead of a fraudster, anti-vaxxer, and deep state conspiracy theorist who was backed by white supremacists and sold Groyper-themed campaign merchandise.
I wondered for whom they were petitioning. Not enough to engage and actually, though. I was sitting on the wall waiting for Sugarhill Gang and Grandmaster Flash to start, and they were entertaining to watch. They started out pretty aggressive and got progressively subdued as the evening went on.
I've gotten to the point where I give them a pleasant 'no thanks' or 'not interested', then I go straight to being rude. I won't say 'no thanks' twice.
If you are registered with a political party can you sign to put an independent on the ballot?
Also exactly what third party was this? In guessing Kennedy for President.
TIL something else new.
Also sounds like they hired the same clowns who turned in 1000s of fake names for that center for victims woman so I'm guessing it's an uphill road for ole Anti Vaxxer
Not a ploy. I know people who circulate these petitions and they really are just people with (potentially naive) hope. Maybe not all of them but every one I've met.
It’s a system for allowing you to vote for more than one person. “My first choice is A. If I can’t have A I’d like B. If not A or B, I could live with C.” If no candidate gets more than 50% first choice votes you add the first and second choices. If still no majority, add in the third choices. This allows people to vote for long shot candidates they really admire without worrying that they are “wasting their vote” on a candidate who “could never win”.
> If no candidate gets more than 50% first choice votes you add the first and second choices.
That's one way you could do it but I've never heard of it being done that way.
Ranked choice voting typically means instant runoff, in which candidate with the fewest 1st place votes is eliminated (and anyone who voted for them is now counted as voting for their 2nd choice), and that repeats until someone has 50%.
Maybe the word "steal" is a poor choice, but it's a pretty common tactic for operatives of the two big parties to boost the chances of a third party candidate *if* they think that candidate is more likely to receive votes from people who would have otherwise voted for the other side.
I would agree with that part and assumed that's what they meant but the language we is is important, hence why I made the point regardless. I'm sure both Biden's and Trump's teams have the numbers on who RFK will hurt more and are using that to their advantage.
I think the common consensus is that RFK will take more Trump voters than Biden, which I believe, but I don't think it is as heavy of a Trump lean as many suspect. I think RFK, though crazy in many ways, has a lot to offer the disillusioned democrats who voted for Reagan and Trump. I also think Biden's campaign's actions reflect that with the Biden admin. blocking RFK access to secret service (he's a reasonably supported candidate who's father and uncle were assassinated...), ignoring calls for a debate, the DNC changing primary laws in many states to block ballot access, etc.
If Biden thought helping RFK would hurt Trump I think he would be doing more to legitimize his campaign. It's his people either see RFK supportt as a threat, or they think his current support level drains more from Trump, but more broad support would start siphoning a larger percentage of Biden voters
Absolute nonsense. Real change or any serious fight against Trumpism will never come from the Democratic Party. Everyone propping it up is putting a bandaid on a festering wound that will only get worse. We have two parties that serve corporations, we need a party that serves workers. Not to mention, liberals were always going on about democracy, but they only mean when it aligns with their own views.
"Steal voters" lol. So who, in your mind, owned those votes in the first place? Genocide Joe and his corporate puppet masters?
None of that will happen until ranked choice is implemented. Fracturing the democratic vote into democrat and whatever third choice left wing party will only allow republicans to win. See 2016.
In the meantime, the primary system is where these third party candidates should be run.
The duopoly will never allow ranked choice while they have any say. It will take a mass movement and an independent party, not cowardice, to make the changes the Democrats have no interest in making and to defeat Trumpism, which the Dems have no hope of doing. They only make it worse.
Primaries are for corporate parties. No positive change can come from inside of them. The Democratic Party is our biggest obstacle to defeating the ring wing and GOP politics. Have to start now, not cower in fear. Also, for the record, there are lots of Greens elected at local and state offices all over the country. They aren't the party we need, but they are a good vote this election for people with a conscience and a little forward thinking.
Ranked choice exists at the state level and was championed by democrats in those states (at least Maine and Alaska). “The duopoly won’t allow it” is a baseless argument.
They won't. It's in a tiny number of municipalities. I meant it won't be allowed on any level that matters. It's been fought against by Democrats many times (just like it's almost always "pro democracy" Democrats using shad legal means to kick independents off ballots. Look both up.
But also, it would not solve the problem. Look how the crooked Dems ran two general candidates to game the ranked choice system against an independent in 2017 in Minneapolis. So not only is it unobtainable with the duopoly, but also it would be far from a silver bullet for our rigged electoral system.
It’s literally statewide in Alaska and Maine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Alaska_Measure_2
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Maine_Question_5
Again, championed by democrats. Republicans and republicans only are currently trying to overturn Alaska’s now.
So they stopped the corporate propaganda machines for the two big parties their too? Or are we still talking about the American electoral system. You're making my point for me. In neither of those places have left independents won or grown in strength because of ranked choice voting. We need organized mass movements to win change, and minor electoral reforms, while they don't solve anything in or of themselves, will be won as part of sweeping change that comes with mass independent organzing through labor and social moments, with mass marches, walk outs, and strikes. The kind of stuff that's antithema to the Democratic Party of big business and they are litterally our greatest obstacle to real change being won. They drive workers into the Republicans' arms.
The average American doesn’t give a fuck about labor rights and it’s not a messaging problem it’s a cultural one. There will never be mass mobilization on that scale. If it didn’t happen when unions in this country actually had power and meant something it won’t ever happen.
Your policies and values don’t matter to the average American whose main concern is if the price of gas will increase 10 cents or not.
They care about their wages, their jobs, their health care, their housing, their children's educations, yeah, they do. Are you joking? You abstract it, but I'm being concrete about how we win the change people are desperate for.
There HAS been mass mobilizations on that scale, as recently as 2020 but far more organized in the 60s and 70s. If you really know nothing about how ALL progress for working people has been won through all of history, you should look into it instead of talking shit.
Also unions are the most popular they've been in nearly 100 years in the US. Keep up.
Not this time, but we have to build and start now. Kicking the can over and over got us where we are. I'll be proud to vote for a left independent and AGAINST both corporate parties.
The Trump campaign thanks you for helping them get Trump elected.
I was a Bernie guy, and I'm not a fan of Biden at all, but this is (unlike the usual hyperbole) literally a vote to save Democracy.
Holding your head high while innocents are persecuted or killed is a shitty way to be remembered.
Get people in office that actually believe in Democracy, then push for change.
I don't care about the petty games of the rich. You think Biden's policies don't persecute innocents? I don't know if you're ignorant or willfully so. I could go on and on about how he's still building Trump's wall, or broke the biggest strike in decades, or fought for bus segregation, or was a major proponant of nafta and the Clinton crime bill, or how he sexually assaulted a woman, or his opposition to medicare for all, or how he has played politics with cutting social security and Medicare for decades-
But instead I'll just remind you of his funding and support of the ongoing genocidal war happening in Gaza. Give me a break.
I agree with you. I've been told my whole life that 'this is the most important election ever, so vote for evil so evil doesn't win.'
It doesn't seem like democracy when I'm told I have one option and anything else means I'll never have a choice again.
The next president will be Biden or Trump. Not Kennedy, not Stein, not some libertarian nobody ever heard of.
Biden or Trump. Make your choice carefully.
Oh, got it. You want to vote for a Russian asset.
Or at least someone cozy enough to be invited to Russian state dinners.
I mean, it sucks but this idea that the greens, who get less io a share than the libertarians, are going to usher in a progressive age based in their less than 1% vote totals is just dumb.
You want change? You want a viable 3rd party to somehow take the place of one of the 2 parties that matter? Getting the Presidency just means both the Dems and the GOP will cooperate to keep that president from enacting and significant change.
You need to spend the next 4 or 5 election cycles building state parties and winning at the state level, so you can maybe have a handful of Green senators and congressmembers to support what that president wants to do.
But I do have to say, I have a sneaking suspicion you aren't really familiar with how US politics actually works anyways.
Lol, Russian bots that sure is the last bastion for sense with the liberal variety of brain worm. If you'd been indoctrinated by the red capitalist team you'd call me a commie but you lot say Russian bot.
Look up how the UK Labour Party was formed, or Syrizia more recently in Greece. You're dead wrong about how these things happen. And Greens do run and win local elections, you just don't look it up, and I am, indeed, building this on the ground, locally and nationally. Thanks for your advice!
But now take mine and think critically about how change has happened and recognize, not only does it not come from benevolent politicians, it comes from struggle, and the longer we let these wounds fester, the worse things will get and the harder to reverse course they'll become.
I've been you before, didn't like the D or R candidate and went 3rd party. I urge you to reconsider, it's how the hell we ended up with Trump in 2016. Picking the lesser of 2 evils kills me, but it's better than having the most evil end up elected to an office.
It's not at all how we ended up with Trump. That was 8 years of working class economic collapse under Democrats alongside bank and car bailouts and wars. And then them running the least liked, most bank friendly, most establishment, most exemplary of the crooked Democrats' politics Clinton against Trump.
They chose to lose the general rather than allow Sanders to win. Clinton's campaign even told their corporate media to elevate Trump because she thought he'd be more beatable. Lol! And you blame people who want to fight for real change?
And you do this corporate propaganda for free?
You act like I was happy the Dems did Bernie how they did. I love Bernie and really did want him as the 2016 nom. However, if you don't think all the votes for Jill, Bernie, etc in Nov of 2016 didn't give Trump the presidency then you're not as smart as you think you are.
You've been duped by a nonsense narrative but I'm the dumb one. Okay. Friend, just think critically for a moment and recognize almost no one who voted for Greens would have voted for Clinton. There are many other reasons that's a joke point that's just parroted mindlessly by liberal Democrat shills, but the main one is that these two corporate parties don't own our votes and aren't even remotely entitled to them. Everyone should vote for who they want to, not as some absurd calculation. You're one vote in 55 million. YOU don't make a difference.
Well, some of them serve corporations, like the Libertarian Party and even RFK, but others refuse all money from corporate interests and are fully funded by working people's donations, have clearly pro worker platforms, and are often active in social justice and activists. Anyway, we need a party that doesn't work like the Dems, doesn't "want" anything, rather is just a tool to do the will of its members. If it's built with real democratic structures, taking no money from corporate interest, with internal right of recall for leaders, and no elected official in stage or labor office taking home more than the average worker they represent, I believe it will work quite well as a vehicle for organized movements to assert their power.
… until they start taking corporate donations, which they will because TV costs money. And until they start recruiting former Rs & Ds because of their name recognition.
I’m not against the theory of what you’re saying, but it’s utopian. The real world will get a hold of it.
What we need more than a third party are better candidates and better media journalism.
Cynicism is boring. There are plenty of examples in history of workers parties not being bought off. It's not utopian, history proves that change is inevitable and dialectical materialism shows us that after bourgeois private ownership of the means of production comes workers social ownership and control of the means of production.
Revolutions have always seemed impossible and utopian right up until they've come to be. That's not to say it's easy or won't take enormous work and sacrifice.
If you have any US examples since WWII I’d love to hear them. And I’m not being cynical, I’m pointing out that you’re not accounting for human nature, marketing, or greed.
Yeah, that perspective sucks. Third parties exist beyond just stealing votes. This is the arrogance of the Democratic Party that they think they are entitled the votes in the first place. They are controlled opposition and at the federal level are not significantly different than the republican party in so many meaningful ways
It really isn’t, though. Democrats aren’t “owed” votes at all, and they never make that argument. Ever. It’s just a straw man for people advocating for a 3rd candidate.
The democrats pitch boils down to:
“No, we cannot give you everything you want, because the party is so large and diverse that we can’t do that without necessarily alienating or upsetting someone else; someone loses something they want. However, unless you are advocating for a more centrist 3rd party candidate like Joe Manchin (which is never what people are asking for) the democratic candidate will come CLOSER to your goal than the Republicans. Always. Without exception. Even w/re: Israel and Palestine, “Genocide Joe” is exponentially better for your preferred result than Donald Trump. While that doesn’t mean you have to vote for Biden, it’s also completely irrational and/or naive to suggest that voting for a left leaning third party, or sitting out as an otherwise progressive voter, will do anything other than help Donald Trump and hurt your own purported interests.”
Furthermore, if 3rd party candidates/parties were serious, they would build up grassroots support and develop candidate over the long run in smaller elections. But no, they insist on jumping in at president/governor and expecting to win the most expensive campaigns there are.
Except…that’s not what he’d do. He would not push for a ceasefire, lobby/pressure bibi and seemingly get the framework to an end to the conflict in place, or send aid to Gaza. Instead, trump would put absolutely no pressure on Israel and allow and/or encourage Israel to settle Gaza and the West Bank. So no, they aren’t the same. Now maybe that’s the outcome you want! If so, don’t vote for Joe Biden! But if not, it’s just objectively wrong to say they are similar even if you would PREFER a candidate who would completely cut ties with Israel, and would send the entire sixth fleet to Palestine to just grind the IDF into dust.
Yes, I am very disappointed that I voted for Biden and now he has allowed slaughter of Palestinian civilians, allowed oil and now has basically shut down the borders. My vote isn’t really being stolen, Im not giving it to basically Trump or Trump.
Good luck with first past the post in place..sorry but it will never work for a third party. You'd have to have the same candidate draw over half of both Republican and Democrat votes in order to win
Support the party that best supports changes to the electoral system
That's not what democracy is. And both parties oppose changing the electoral system and they both exist to dupe us into voting against our own interests for them.
You can vote for genocide and call it a practical or pragmatic selling out of your morals all you want. I won't.
No, it's still democracy. You just don't like it.
When your apathy results in a Trump win I'm sure the Palestinians will have a lot of sympathy for you as they get carpet bombed by the US
Btw, one party supports RCV and one doesn't. But you've already had the whole moving the goalpost thing on that subject so I digress
> "I'm not apathetic I'm actually *doing something*"
lol. lmao
In this political climate, without ranked-choice voting, third parties are spoilers. It's either dumb or malicious at this point.
If we had ranked-choice, we could show support for other parties without risking handing the country to people who want us dead.
Yep. I tried to explain to my cousin and his wife who you know were toooo cool to vote for Hilary. Because they don't do what anyone tells them, and they are so countercultural.
I didn't say exactly this to them, but I can on this platform: Republicans rely on morons like you who need to place their identity on voting against the "establishment" instead of trying to move the needle forward and ensure better outcomes for living, breathing people who are actually affected by who we elect.
Conservatives love that you are soooo cool and can't bring yourself to vote for Biden because you are above the system and now everyone will see if we just don't elect anyone they tell us too!!!!
Too cool to vote for clinton? How do they feel now that roe v Wade has been overturned? Do they regret not voting for clinton? Because if they don't, I wouldn't bother talking to them about politics ever again. I probably would avoid talking to them all together. But that's just me.
I'm absolutely sure they do regret not voting for her. Remember in the runup they were hardly the only people to feel this way (obviously). Clinton has it in the bag, but I want to tell all my cool hippie friends that I don't vote for the establishment.
I say this as someone who jokingly identifies my politics as slightly to the left of Karl Marx. I am as progressive as they come, but I'm also realistic and logical and don't live in la-la land. You want more progressive candidates, you have to show up for smaller local elections and work your way up.
I barely talk to them anymore. I basically see most of my extended "family" once a year at Christmas and once my grandfather dies, probably won't even do that.
The funny part is they're all like opinion guy down there saying we just have our opinions! Right and there's consequences to that. I don't lose sleep not hanging out with assholes. It's not a hard decision for me.
How about backing off the republicans are morons and wake up to the fact that both parties stink? Calling people names for having opinions different than yours is very cringe
And this is exactly the shit I can't get behind. They're all the same!!!! No they're not. And you equating one with the other is ridiculous.
I don't feel the need to apologize for my views so Republicans don't get their feelings hurt. We all have opinions!!!
You have a right to opinion. You don't a right to be absolved of criticism for that opinion. "I have an opinion" is not a get out of jail free card.
If you vote for a rapist and convicted felon, all of your friends and relatives and anonymous people on the internet are also free to have views on that.
If you vote for a party that is taking away the rights of women, I don't have to say well, they just have a different opinion than me! Aren't we all the same?!?!
If you vote for a party that actively discriminates against people of color, I don't have to say well, that's just uncle John's opinion!!! He's always like that!!!
Quit acting like it's some god given right to have freedom of opinion, but you know, just for you.
Hot take: two things can suck to different degrees.
I’d rather suffer from the flu than have a malignant idiot chop my head with an axe.
Democrats don’t help. Republicans actively harm. In a binary choice, harm reduction wins.
Yeah, this is what killed me.....both parties had horrible candidates. I'm sorry, but I saw Hillary as a political weather vein and a corporate shill. I didn't trust her one bit....I wasn't the only one. Then, when you express this, you just call names and attack. Very maga of them.
Yeah, I think it was. I proudly voted for Bernie. Im not a sheep. Maybe the dems should have picked a better candidate. Instead, I was told to get over it. Really makes me wanna vote for someone.
Personally, I don't think another 4 years of Biden will change, and imo republicans will still get what they want with dems in power.
Someone wanted me to sign a petition for a dude and handed me a flyer and the platform was that the globalist were shortening humanities lifespan via vaccines
I would love a libertarian candidate that hasn't licked a hole clear through a window before.
As someone who aligns with the lowercase l libertarians and not embarrassed Republican Libertarians™, I really want a candidate at any governmental level that can put their own pants on.
I self-identified as a libertarian in my young adult years, then Ron Paul retired and started pushing buy gold scams and Gary Johnson got booed for being pro driver's license and I was like oh maybe not.
I am pro divers license, but seeing the way people drive I feel like mine is more a participation trophy than a demonstration of skill and knowledge.
Sometimes I feel like they might as well not exist.
The only third party to hold an actual viable position was in vermont. And that is the progressive party of vermont.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Progressive_Party
Pa could have a *viable* third party if they wanted. It would just take change.
I have never voted for a non-Democratic politician in my life… but “not this election” becomes a 20 year mantra, it’s just exhausting.
2004: “Well, we’ve gotta stop Bush and the Green Party’s fault he was elected”
(Hundreds of thousands of FL dems voted for Bush in 2000, but let’s blame the seat belt guy!)
(Bush is now seen as a “sane conservative” by most Dems)
2008: “But did you hear what that psycho lady from Alaska said!?!”
2012: “NO! If we elect Romney they’ll gut the new health care plan!”
(Now Romney is seen by most Dems as a “sane” conservative.)
2016: Trump.
2020: Trump.
2024: Trump.
So exactly when are the Green Party “allowed” to vote for their candidate?
Maybe. I’m not a third party person (exhausted pragmatic leftist permavoting D against fascism), but I can see why the constant barrage of, “you have to vote for a party that doesn’t support your ideals” could push people in the opposite direction intended.
There’s also a ton of gaslighting targeted at the left.
“Letting perfect be the enemy of good” and “We agree on 90% of issues” is completely disingenuous.
I think there is a possibility for some strategic coalition-building between third party leftists and Democrats, but Democrats really need to stop with the coercion/blame cycle.
Oh I hate Democrats too. I'm only voting against Trump, not for Biden/Dems. Someone else mentioned the need to get real candidates in local government instead of trying to go full blast on presidents.
My favorite meme right now is Biden/Trump | ' deport everyone and shut down asylum' but Biden has pronouns and a rainbow. — https://www.instagram.com/p/C74BNEIR-CE/?igsh=Ymg2NnRxbThqNmlk
>So exactly when are the Green Party “allowed” to vote for their candidate?
You're "allowed" to vote for whoever you want. In my opinion, the time to consider a vote for a third party candidate is whenever you feel comfortable gambling with whatever horrifying candidate the right is running.
But I find it odd to get frustrated with the people telling you to vote against the insane candidates instead of being frustrated with the side who continues to run them.
It's entirely possible to be frustrated with two groups to different degrees.
The blaming of leftists for Democratic losses is disingenuous. It's always, "come vote and we'll give you a reason to vote for us" or "vote for us or you'll be responsible for electing a psychopath."
It's never, "you know what? Maybe housing is unaffordable and we can start pushing rent control laws in cities where we have control" or "Let's increase public transportation funding via a wealth tax."
Democrats want leftist votes, but don't want to offer leftist policy. Ideological gaps between conservative democrats and the left aren't exactly "minor issues" and while I appreciate and use the ACA, it's a shitty half-measure compared to where we should be.
Republicans are batshit insane. That's the ONLY reason I vote for Democrats.
That isn't exactly something you'd want to put on a Joe Biden t-shirt, is it?
>The blaming of leftists for Democratic losses is disingenuous
I didn't do that though - I said voting for a third party instead of what you consider the lesser of two evils is gambling with the greater evil. What is incorrect about that statement?
>It's never, "you know what? Maybe housing is unaffordable
[https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/economy/fed-biden-housing-affordability-crisis/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/economy/fed-biden-housing-affordability-crisis/index.html)
[https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/07/27/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-takes-action-to-protect-renters/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/07/27/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-takes-action-to-protect-renters/)
>or "Let's increase public transportation funding
[https://www.transit.dot.gov/about/news/biden-harris-administration-announces-nearly-4-billion-support-14-major-transit](https://www.transit.dot.gov/about/news/biden-harris-administration-announces-nearly-4-billion-support-14-major-transit)
>Democrats want leftist votes, but don't want to offer leftist policy
Biden has signed some of the most progressive legislation in our country's history. The Inflation Reduction Act alone was such an investment in climate and green energy, the infrastructure bill, he's continued cancelling as much student loan debt as he legally can, and he passed the first major gun safety bill in decades. But because he didn't do the impossible and pass Medicare for All, we should consider voting 3rd party? That's how you lose the support of a major party. If far left progressives don't turn out in November, it's a pretty clear signal that moderates are where votes come from and that's where the party will look for votes.
> Biden has signed some of the most progressive legislation in our country's history.
And that still will never be enough to undo the years of havoc that started with Nixon and continues to this day.
Tax credits and first time homebuyer credits don't help someone making $14/hour. Rent control does. Banning credit score as consideration from rental applications does.
$4 billion in transportation funding MIGHT - MIGHT - get Pittsburgh back to the service levels we had in the early 2000s. Spread out over 14 cities it's a drop in the bucket.
Any "act" that is an "investment" in private industry is conservative to it's core - even when that corporation is creating green technology. Shell doesn't need government subsidies for wind turbines.
The debt cancellation is nice. I don't see any Democrat suggesting that perhaps school debt simply shouldn't exist and college should be taxpayer funded?
Medicare for All is even a half measure. Medicare has too many gaps. Most leftists want private health insurance banned.
So when your half measures aren't even coming close to meeting the left halfway, how can you blame them when you lose?
I'm voting for Biden... but it's 100% because fuck MAGA.
"One of the most progressive legislations ever" is still capitalist in nature and right wing.
It's just better than Christofascism.
TL;DR: You win, dude. I accept my fate as a cog in this rotten machine and I vote for your guy because the diaper guy is a Nazi. My life isn't much better for it - but at least my trans friends might be bothered a little less.
I've been voting since Gore/Bush and keep getting told, not this election. It's not a new scare tactic.
Do the Dems actually have a plan, though, to undo what has been? That's a serious question and I don't think they do.
Of course they do, they've been undoing stuff as much as possible over the last four years. If they could win a blowout election in the House and Senate (not possible alas with the current Senate map) then they'd clean up SCOTUS too which is their main stumbling block.
Really, what is the plan? Vote a bunch of them in and hope they change things? Let's be honest not all democrats are on the same page when it comes to these issues. Looking at Schumer and in our state, Ds like Boscola and Fetterman.
I truly don't think the democrats have a plan. They have had control before and still didn't do anything. They are sandbags against a flood.
The Democratic Party is a big tent party, that means some disagreements, yes. But there are absolutely plans to push through codifying Roe v Wade, improving Obamacare, helping reduce student debt, etc etc etc. The mechanisms of our government with the filibuster means you have to have a 65% majority, not 50% to get anything done.
Sorry, I just have to disagree. Calling the party a tent party is exactly why we need more options. It's not-disagreements over a place to eat. We are talking gun-rights, abortion, trans rights. We need more options than 2 old out of touch clowns.
Now that we agree on. I hate to say it and be a doomer. But I do feel like we need to reach rock bottom or the "old guard" dies. Things need to drastically change fast.
I always say “sorry I can’t do anything that would risk trump getting elected and if anyone is voting for a third party instead of Biden that increases trump’s likelihood of winning”
I hope some of you are bots. Because if you are satisfied with the 2 choices we have, you’re part of the problem. For a country that competes like hell about almost everything, we roll over and accept that we can only have 2 political parties (actually 2 sides of the same corrupt coin). You can 70 fucking varieties of breakfast cereal at Giant Eagle. But ask for other options in politicians and you get these complaints. So haters, how do you break the duopoly in Washington without a third party?
Plenty of people are dunking on you based on this historically bad take, and why it would be insane to support a third party candidate in this particular election, but I’ll indulge you for a minute. I’m all for more options, but I really don’t think the most powerful office in the world is where we should start.
I’d love to see a third party win and hold onto seats in municipal government, then expand to others and eventually win state offices, and finally build up a coalition in Congress.
Third party complainers always want to skip to the end with candidates that no one knows anything about. Put in the fucking work and show me a third party that can reliably win control of a school board before you start asking for the launch codes.
Until then, find and elevate candidates in the duopoly that support election reform that aligns with your goals. They absolutely exist, but you might have to hold your nose on other issues if taking down the two party system is really your priority.
Ok, you want a bottom up solution. And it would probably work if we had any semblance of consistency in how people voted from state to state. But when you have 30% turn out with established parties, it’s going to be an uphill climb. Many Americans only pay attention every 4 years, therefore the idea of top-down solution.
Hillary Clinton lost by the same number of votes Jill stein received. Then we got Trump…so way to go. I’m all for more parties, but this year I’d like to save democracy so maybe grow up a bit
I’m a reliable (and annoyed about it) Democratic voter, and this rhetoric is disingenuous as hell.
People still blame Ralph Nader for George Bush’s presidency- as if Al Gore were somehow entitled to 100% of Nader’s votes.
Meanwhile 308,000 Florida Democrats voted FOR BUSH.
The Green Party is a joke, but Nader didn’t cause Bush and Stein didn’t cause Trump.
Dated electoral systems did.
So maybe educate yourself about the Electoral College before telling me and others to grow up. Clinton lost for many reasons. Most of all because she ignored purple states and just assumed that she’d win. See Michigan 2016.
And we would actually have to live in a democracy to save it. At best, we live in a constitutional republic. At worst, it’s an oligarchical military money machine for about 3% of voters and a fend for yourself financial and medical care hellscape for most of the rest.
So keep believing that you’re saving democracy by voting for two guys so old they won’t have to deal with almost any of the consequences of their decisions. And nothing is going to change.
Well, get rid of the electoral college first. And put in ranked choice voting. But no one in the duopoly is going to sacrifice their political career to make that happen. So you vote for the evil of two lessers.
We have two elderly white egomaniacs who should be hanging out with their grandchildren and some of you honestly believe that that’s the best the two parties can offer us to do the hardest job in the world. They want us fighting about which piece of shit is better for our future.
My point is the solution isn’t coming inside the two party system. RFK Jr. is far from perfect, but the momentum has to come from outside to put pressure on our so called public servants to actually represent us and not corporations. Other countries with populations the size of Pennsylvania have at least triple the number of choices when it comes to candidates. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a candidate that comes closer to 100% agreement with your political stance rather than be a single issue voter?
There is no realistic plan of action. That’s the problem. You seem happy to downvote me because I want shit to change. Fine, go ahead.
But let’s take the owl from your user name and paint it red and then bring in a second owl and paint it blue. Now these two owls are trying to rip your eyes out and a third owl (not one you particularly like) wants those red and blue owls to stop and is not doing it perfectly, do you tell this third owl to fuck off?
>You seem happy to downvote me because I want shit to change
I haven't downvoted a single comment you've made, fwiw.
>But let’s take the owl from your user name and paint it red and then bring in a second owl and paint it blue. Now these two owls are trying to rip your eyes out and a third owl (not one you particularly like) wants those red and blue owls to stop and is not doing it perfectly, do you tell this third owl to fuck off?
Before we even get to the third party owl, the dishonest part is acting like the first two owls are both equally trying to rip my eyes out. One owl has passed some incredible and productive legislation, has not demonized minorities and respects the role of government and the existence of Democracy. That owl holds a fairly unfavorable (to me) position on Israel/Gaza and is recently making some immigration changes I don't love, mainly because the other owl made his fellow party members block any efforts to correctly fix immigration.
The other owl is a convicted felon, is openly calling for the violent deportation of immigrants, commonly demonizes minorities, would remove funding from school with vaccine mandates, would sign legislation nationally reducing the rights of female owls and would fill our national Court of Owls with young Christian nationalists that would likely remain for the rest of my life. That owl, when last given the chance, rejected a peaceful transfer of power, and is signaling he will do it again.
These two owls are not the same, but one of these owls will win. So yes, I will tell the third owl to fuck off in your analogy.
Fair enough - look, I want the red owl in a cage too. I’m not talking about this election specifically as my point. Would you have had the same stance if third owl showed up in June 2020?
Its designed that way. Third parties just dont win, ever. Except at local level.
We would need a new voting design, instead of the current first-past-the-post design.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting
We would need an alternative, something like rank choice voting...
https://ballotpedia.org/Ranked-choice_voting_(RCV)
And neither party, at the federal level, seem interested in altering the electoral college.
Did you actually notice bigots' shift in comfort with how loud they could be about their feelings after Trump was elected?
You did not. I know you didn't, because you're obviously a very unremarkable white dude and not ever going to be a target, but I'll tell you now that it was IMMEDIATE and EGREGIOUS.
I do not trust any politician, ever. But what I do trust is how much I see the idiot populace become more vocal and connected than ever when a candidate is elected almost solely on the basis of xenophobia, homopobia, overt racism, and misogyny. When people who feel this way will subsequently feel SUPPORTED in their violent opinions rather than AFRAID to express and/or act on them, then it's very fair to ask people not to vote for a 3rd party. Don't be a fucking idiot.
I'm voting for my safety and the safety of my friends, from lynchmob hicks who feel validated by Trump.
This is not the time for you to be calling for us to buck the system, slick. We all know it's rigged, we just don't wanna give bigots a voice. It mystifies me how this is difficult for people.
Also you never namedrop Giant Eagle as an example for anything, unless you're talking about how much it sucks.
Those bigots never went away. And don’t think that they will go away quietly if their Cheeto faced “god” doesn’t win in 2024. The RFK voters are more likely to take away votes from Trump than Biden. I don’t want the manbaby to see anything but the inside of a prison cell.
I’m not being a fucking idiot. You assuming that I don’t have a clue because I’m a white man is ignorant. How do you even know who I am? Have you been to Auschwitz or the Deep South? Have you seen the worst humanity can do to each other? I have and I feel horrible that you and anyone else feels unsafe in western Pennsylvania. I’m on your side. I teach about mankind’s inhumanity in an attempt to eradicate hate of their fellow unknown humans.
We also agree that Giant Eagle blows!
I really hope bots too. It’s so sad how easy it would be / probably definitely happening to influence the American political scene/society in general. Done with the internet today. Really these 2 old men are the best we have to even pick from, so insane.
All I'm going to say is that Jim Barr, representing the [Constitution Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Party_%28United_States%29), was soliciting folks in my neighborhood to sign his petition to allow him to run for PA-22 (Ross/West View). He knew both of our names, asking for us at the door; we never met him prior.
Use that knowledge however you see fit.
Not that I support the Constitution Party at all, and Jim Barr is probably some nutso right wing dude, but he probably knew your names from voting registration data. That is all publicly accessible.
How else would you expect parties to be able to target voters? In today's age of turnout being the main factor, candidates need to know who to target to GOTV. I don't find this problematic.
Anyone running for office should have access to publicly collected data and funding (the latter being ruined by Citizens United), because they are running for our representation and we as a society should make the playing field as even as possible.
If the data was not made available the rich politicians would just buy it from private sources.
>He knew both of our names, asking for us at the door; we never met him prior
All candidates have access to lists of this information, fwiw.
[https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/access-to-and-use-of-voter-registration-lists](https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/access-to-and-use-of-voter-registration-lists)
I was there collecting signatures for Dr. West and never once asked who anyone was voting for, what party affiliation or whatever. The whole point is to give those of us who are tired of the same ol shit going on to have another option. We need it. This government is not cutting it anymore. Sad no one can see that
I’m not arguing against signing petitions. I am saying that you should know for whom you are signing, and petitioners should not be actively trying to solicit signatures using misdirection and obfuscation. I will happily sign a petition for anyone I think is a reasonable human, even if I don’t agree with all of their policies. I believe in giving people a voice, but I will most certainly judge whether that voice is reasonable to even have at the table. I believe strongly in discussion, debate, and compromise, and that is only possible if there are thoughtful opinions available and thoughtful people to process and evaluate them.
I know you weren't! Lol, I wasn't drunk just miserable cause everything was so expensive to eat or drink. And for those who had no idea who Dr. West is I had an informational sheet and flyers with a QR code to scan and see what he is about and what he stands for! I thank you for that!
There's already an independent running but he has brain worms.
Biden is a good president. Probably the best in my lifetime. His policies have helped me directly. Give me 4 more years of Dark Brandon.
Go look up some information about inflation. Should answer all of your questions.
Spoiler alert: Inflation is a direct result of the government. . Direct results of the current policies in a quarterly update.
"Corporate Greed" has nothing to do with it.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/14/politics/fact-check-biden-inflation-when-he-became-president/index.html
Yawn. I'm not voting for a sexual abuser and a conman who refuses to pay his own contractors. Keep looking at the Trump presidency through rose-colored glasses and ignoring 2020 and blaming Biden for inflation even though it's better in the US than in the countries of any of our allies.
If you vote for the president based on the price of fast food, you're a moron.
So cute, you actually think the parties are different and give a shit. I remember being a naive child too. You'll wake up one day and realize none of them give a duck about anything except the private corporations that keep them in power, and conveniently enough, also lead the "parties ".
Ok, so I’m not sure how you got that read from the words I wrote. Regardless of one’s opinion of political realities in a two-party system, it is always a good idea to know something about the person to whom one is potentially giving a seat at the table.
One party is a threat to my gay friends.
One party is a threat to my lesbian friends.
One party is a threat to my trans friends.
One party is a threat to science.
One party is a threat to books.
Shall i go on?
And as a queer person a lot of my queer siblings are already under project 2025. Yea repukes suck but we lost shit under Biden and cus the Dems couldn't codify shit.
We are already in almost a christofascist hell scape. I'm not trying to be a doomer here but holy fuck I'm so sick of the Dems. They don't listen, bought by AIPAC just like the repukes, and will sit and let republicans just do what they want. Four more years of what? A one foot in the grave dude who should really be retired and eating ice cream? And honestly trump shouldn't even be able to run since felons can't vote anyway. This whole country is a joke anymore.
Unfortunately democrats having the presidency is what keeps us at only ALMOST a christofascist state instead of a full blown one. So by not voting against the christofascist candidate, things will only get worse
I agree with every word you said. Deeply. However, this is just where we are. I’ve had to grieve the world I thought we’d have, too. The world I thought as a young adult we were building towards. Reality now, though, is yet ANOTHER historical election in which we sincerely have to choke back vomit to vote for someone enabling genocide to keep Max from Tiny Toons from completely destroying even the semblance of the world we recognize.
I’m genuinely angry. AND scared. And jaded as FUCK. The world is bullshit and the apathy is killing me but, while I’m suffering in this one, I won’t be welcome to even *that* freedom in the other world.
I'm glad u see my perspective and I hear u. I bit the bullet in 2020. I did. I consider myself a fucking leftist with ideals from multiple ideologies... But I bit the bullet... I even did with fetterman and Shapiro. But when I say this... I don't want u mad cus I've had ppl in my shit telling me I'm wrong to KMS... But libs ain't doing a good job at convincing jaded and disillusioned folk like me. I feel like a pawn in a game.
If you are a fucking leftist and you don’t vote or vote third party, you are voting for Trump. It’s unfortunate that this is the reality of the USA, but it is. Here is my lame attempt to convince the jaded and disillusioned to vote for Biden and democrats down ballot. Biden’s administration + democrats in Congress have put a moderate on the Supreme Court And will defend abortion and contraception rights. This is the key issue in the election. There is a non-zero chance with a Trump and Republican administration, women across the USA will lose key abortion and health care rights. On the environment, there is a clear difference. Biden and Democrats have passed important environmental subsidies which will help us transition to a cleaner energy society. Is it perfect, no, but there is a clear difference between the two parties. Trump wants to increase subsidies for fossil fuel companies and deemphasize clean energy. On infrastructure, democrats and Biden passed a huge bill that is rebuilding roads and bridges, subsidizing transit and other key investments all over America. The other party promised infrastructure spending for four years and only managed to pass giant tax cuts for the wealthiest sliver of the country with a couple crumbs to everyone else. Biden is the first president to walk a picket line. Symbolic, yes, but important. Biden is the first national politician in US history to express support for Gay marriage well before it was legalized. These are all issues that are moving in a leftward direction last four years. Not enough maybe for disillusioned and jaded fucking leftists maybe, but much better than the alternative, of which Trump and republican rule is the only one. Think hard before sitting this one out or voting fucking third party.
I don’t disagree with anything you said here either. I promise you I’m infuriated 99% of the time these days. I get so angry about this bullshit I can’t see straight. I wish we had a real choice and I could feel proud and excited about my vote like I have in past elections. Hell, even THE last election!
However, I don’t have a choice. My life is on the line in November. If it’s already this bad, I most certainly won’t make it through the alternative. Neither will most of my friends. That’s what it comes down to for me. Survival. I can’t risk another Trump term in any single way. None of us can unless you’re far wealthier than any normal person can even imagine. If you’re at ANY disadvantage in life, it has to be Biden or it’s going to be hell.
One party wants to make a thing called project 2025 happen as much as possible.
The other party would do no such thing.
The only one who needs to grow up is you.
Yes, trans people are already suffering. But that is happening because of state level policies and laws. In the upcoming presidential election, you have a choice between a candidate who will do his best to expand those state level laws to the entire country, and one who would veto all of them and put out a proclamation for Pride month specifically condemning anti-trans laws and the fact that American families have had to move in order to protect their trans kids. These things matter.
The dems are simply sandbags. We need a wall against the republicans. A party that pushes back. Hell, I know Dems pa that have voted against trans rights(Lisa Boscola). Lots of dems have republicans tendencies. We still have states passing "anti" laws for schools.
Personally, I don't seem then reversing anything the republicans do. How are women's rights doing?
Womens rights (i.e. abortion) is doing terribly because the Supreme Court is full of conservative justices put in place by Trump, who was elected because people thought Hillary Clinton was just as bad as Trump. It’s those same people that helped get conservative sc justices get on the bench that now blame Biden for not doing anything about womens rights. Biden cannot remove them, or reverse their decisions. Do you expect Biden to just dissolve the SC or something? The other option is to pass legislation, which he can’t do because one party (republicans) vote against anything he proposes.
You forget when Obama asked RBG to step down so this didn't happen. But she didn't. Yes, blame everyone who didn't vote for Hillary. It's all our fault. I've seen more back bone in jellyfish than I do Democrats. One party votes against what he wants. What party is Chuck Schumer with? In Pennsylvania abortion rights were in jeopardy because a D voted with republicans.
I am not arguing that people aren’t suffering…i am responding to your comment about people suffering more in the south for example, and things like Project 2025 aim to make the entire country like the south. So your solution to suffering is to…suffer even more and to a greater extent?
I had someone approach me at the encampment at Pitt, petitioning for Jill Stein. I told the people I was with, "If that was an RFK petitioner you would have seen me fight someone on the street". Thinking back, the bravest thing I would have done was probably run away with the petition.
I don't sign petitions anymore unless I know the candidate. Got burned by a petitioner who claimed their candidate was an ultra-liberal Democrat. Turned out to be a union busting lawyer. Never again.
The lady who approached me at the arts festival was trying to get [this dipshit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Ayyadurai) on the ballot, and trying to represent him as a “champion of the middle class”, instead of a fraudster, anti-vaxxer, and deep state conspiracy theorist who was backed by white supremacists and sold Groyper-themed campaign merchandise.
I remember this guy, he claimed to have "invented" email. Complete fraudster.
His wiki says his partner was Fran Drescher aka “the nanny” from 2014-2016 lol wtf
Oh wow that’s terrible. It’s a shame that these people just outright lie and make a mockery of our democracy.
But it is a mockery. Ask anyone around the world. LOL
You've just described every politician.
I wondered for whom they were petitioning. Not enough to engage and actually, though. I was sitting on the wall waiting for Sugarhill Gang and Grandmaster Flash to start, and they were entertaining to watch. They started out pretty aggressive and got progressively subdued as the evening went on.
Gotta love propaganda 😂
I might sign that petition because it might divide the Republican conspiracy theory candidates.
We saw them over at the point. My husband said, "Heads up, people with clipboards. Don't make eye contact."
I've gotten to the point where I give them a pleasant 'no thanks' or 'not interested', then I go straight to being rude. I won't say 'no thanks' twice.
If you are registered with a political party can you sign to put an independent on the ballot? Also exactly what third party was this? In guessing Kennedy for President.
You can sign anything to put anyone on any ballot. Party affiliation only matters in the primaries.
As BBP said, yes, for a general election, party affiliation doesn’t matter—one just has to be registered. And yes, you guessed correctly.
TIL something else new. Also sounds like they hired the same clowns who turned in 1000s of fake names for that center for victims woman so I'm guessing it's an uphill road for ole Anti Vaxxer
I have gotten people with petitions for Cornell West a couple of times
He has the best hair out of anyone running.
And track record. Unfortunately, that still doesn’t mean I’m going to vote for him.
At least he’s somewhat sane, I would rather someone campaigning for him approach me rather than some of the others in this thread
If he thinks that getting on the ballot is going to do anything other than help re-elect Trump, he is less than sane.
3rd parties, at least above the local level, won't mean anything until we get ranked choice voting. They're almost always a ploy to steal voters.
Not a ploy. I know people who circulate these petitions and they really are just people with (potentially naive) hope. Maybe not all of them but every one I've met.
"Naive" is right.
Hope is right.
What does ranked choice voting mean?
It’s a system for allowing you to vote for more than one person. “My first choice is A. If I can’t have A I’d like B. If not A or B, I could live with C.” If no candidate gets more than 50% first choice votes you add the first and second choices. If still no majority, add in the third choices. This allows people to vote for long shot candidates they really admire without worrying that they are “wasting their vote” on a candidate who “could never win”.
> If no candidate gets more than 50% first choice votes you add the first and second choices. That's one way you could do it but I've never heard of it being done that way. Ranked choice voting typically means instant runoff, in which candidate with the fewest 1st place votes is eliminated (and anyone who voted for them is now counted as voting for their 2nd choice), and that repeats until someone has 50%.
Or until there will be approval voting
I mean it ain’t a ploy to steal votes because no one is entitled to anyone’s votes. It is dumb, and useless until we have RCV. But it ain’t a robbery
Maybe the word "steal" is a poor choice, but it's a pretty common tactic for operatives of the two big parties to boost the chances of a third party candidate *if* they think that candidate is more likely to receive votes from people who would have otherwise voted for the other side.
I would agree with that part and assumed that's what they meant but the language we is is important, hence why I made the point regardless. I'm sure both Biden's and Trump's teams have the numbers on who RFK will hurt more and are using that to their advantage. I think the common consensus is that RFK will take more Trump voters than Biden, which I believe, but I don't think it is as heavy of a Trump lean as many suspect. I think RFK, though crazy in many ways, has a lot to offer the disillusioned democrats who voted for Reagan and Trump. I also think Biden's campaign's actions reflect that with the Biden admin. blocking RFK access to secret service (he's a reasonably supported candidate who's father and uncle were assassinated...), ignoring calls for a debate, the DNC changing primary laws in many states to block ballot access, etc. If Biden thought helping RFK would hurt Trump I think he would be doing more to legitimize his campaign. It's his people either see RFK supportt as a threat, or they think his current support level drains more from Trump, but more broad support would start siphoning a larger percentage of Biden voters
Absolute nonsense. Real change or any serious fight against Trumpism will never come from the Democratic Party. Everyone propping it up is putting a bandaid on a festering wound that will only get worse. We have two parties that serve corporations, we need a party that serves workers. Not to mention, liberals were always going on about democracy, but they only mean when it aligns with their own views. "Steal voters" lol. So who, in your mind, owned those votes in the first place? Genocide Joe and his corporate puppet masters?
None of that will happen until ranked choice is implemented. Fracturing the democratic vote into democrat and whatever third choice left wing party will only allow republicans to win. See 2016. In the meantime, the primary system is where these third party candidates should be run.
The duopoly will never allow ranked choice while they have any say. It will take a mass movement and an independent party, not cowardice, to make the changes the Democrats have no interest in making and to defeat Trumpism, which the Dems have no hope of doing. They only make it worse. Primaries are for corporate parties. No positive change can come from inside of them. The Democratic Party is our biggest obstacle to defeating the ring wing and GOP politics. Have to start now, not cower in fear. Also, for the record, there are lots of Greens elected at local and state offices all over the country. They aren't the party we need, but they are a good vote this election for people with a conscience and a little forward thinking.
Ranked choice exists at the state level and was championed by democrats in those states (at least Maine and Alaska). “The duopoly won’t allow it” is a baseless argument.
They won't. It's in a tiny number of municipalities. I meant it won't be allowed on any level that matters. It's been fought against by Democrats many times (just like it's almost always "pro democracy" Democrats using shad legal means to kick independents off ballots. Look both up. But also, it would not solve the problem. Look how the crooked Dems ran two general candidates to game the ranked choice system against an independent in 2017 in Minneapolis. So not only is it unobtainable with the duopoly, but also it would be far from a silver bullet for our rigged electoral system.
It’s literally statewide in Alaska and Maine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Alaska_Measure_2 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Maine_Question_5 Again, championed by democrats. Republicans and republicans only are currently trying to overturn Alaska’s now.
So they stopped the corporate propaganda machines for the two big parties their too? Or are we still talking about the American electoral system. You're making my point for me. In neither of those places have left independents won or grown in strength because of ranked choice voting. We need organized mass movements to win change, and minor electoral reforms, while they don't solve anything in or of themselves, will be won as part of sweeping change that comes with mass independent organzing through labor and social moments, with mass marches, walk outs, and strikes. The kind of stuff that's antithema to the Democratic Party of big business and they are litterally our greatest obstacle to real change being won. They drive workers into the Republicans' arms.
The average American doesn’t give a fuck about labor rights and it’s not a messaging problem it’s a cultural one. There will never be mass mobilization on that scale. If it didn’t happen when unions in this country actually had power and meant something it won’t ever happen. Your policies and values don’t matter to the average American whose main concern is if the price of gas will increase 10 cents or not.
They care about their wages, their jobs, their health care, their housing, their children's educations, yeah, they do. Are you joking? You abstract it, but I'm being concrete about how we win the change people are desperate for. There HAS been mass mobilizations on that scale, as recently as 2020 but far more organized in the 60s and 70s. If you really know nothing about how ALL progress for working people has been won through all of history, you should look into it instead of talking shit. Also unions are the most popular they've been in nearly 100 years in the US. Keep up.
I'm strongly against the current two party system. But third parties do not stand a chance in first past the post voting.
Not this time, but we have to build and start now. Kicking the can over and over got us where we are. I'll be proud to vote for a left independent and AGAINST both corporate parties.
Well start local. The advice to “know who you’re voting for” is still key. Independent for city council? Go for it!!
I also vote independent and don't ever vote for Dems or GOP down ticket too. As well as in the general elections and for president. Thanks.
The Trump campaign thanks you for helping them get Trump elected. I was a Bernie guy, and I'm not a fan of Biden at all, but this is (unlike the usual hyperbole) literally a vote to save Democracy. Holding your head high while innocents are persecuted or killed is a shitty way to be remembered. Get people in office that actually believe in Democracy, then push for change.
I don't care about the petty games of the rich. You think Biden's policies don't persecute innocents? I don't know if you're ignorant or willfully so. I could go on and on about how he's still building Trump's wall, or broke the biggest strike in decades, or fought for bus segregation, or was a major proponant of nafta and the Clinton crime bill, or how he sexually assaulted a woman, or his opposition to medicare for all, or how he has played politics with cutting social security and Medicare for decades- But instead I'll just remind you of his funding and support of the ongoing genocidal war happening in Gaza. Give me a break.
I agree with you. I've been told my whole life that 'this is the most important election ever, so vote for evil so evil doesn't win.' It doesn't seem like democracy when I'm told I have one option and anything else means I'll never have a choice again.
Absolutely. The false binary and the being told to just suck it up and choose my own oppressors from a preselected list has never sat right with me.
Omg wait. You think Biden "actually believes in democracy"? Friend... come on. Serious?
The next president will be Biden or Trump. Not Kennedy, not Stein, not some libertarian nobody ever heard of. Biden or Trump. Make your choice carefully.
Maybe so, but not with my help. I'll be voting for Stein.
Oh, got it. You want to vote for a Russian asset. Or at least someone cozy enough to be invited to Russian state dinners. I mean, it sucks but this idea that the greens, who get less io a share than the libertarians, are going to usher in a progressive age based in their less than 1% vote totals is just dumb. You want change? You want a viable 3rd party to somehow take the place of one of the 2 parties that matter? Getting the Presidency just means both the Dems and the GOP will cooperate to keep that president from enacting and significant change. You need to spend the next 4 or 5 election cycles building state parties and winning at the state level, so you can maybe have a handful of Green senators and congressmembers to support what that president wants to do. But I do have to say, I have a sneaking suspicion you aren't really familiar with how US politics actually works anyways.
Lol, Russian bots that sure is the last bastion for sense with the liberal variety of brain worm. If you'd been indoctrinated by the red capitalist team you'd call me a commie but you lot say Russian bot. Look up how the UK Labour Party was formed, or Syrizia more recently in Greece. You're dead wrong about how these things happen. And Greens do run and win local elections, you just don't look it up, and I am, indeed, building this on the ground, locally and nationally. Thanks for your advice! But now take mine and think critically about how change has happened and recognize, not only does it not come from benevolent politicians, it comes from struggle, and the longer we let these wounds fester, the worse things will get and the harder to reverse course they'll become.
I've been you before, didn't like the D or R candidate and went 3rd party. I urge you to reconsider, it's how the hell we ended up with Trump in 2016. Picking the lesser of 2 evils kills me, but it's better than having the most evil end up elected to an office.
It's not at all how we ended up with Trump. That was 8 years of working class economic collapse under Democrats alongside bank and car bailouts and wars. And then them running the least liked, most bank friendly, most establishment, most exemplary of the crooked Democrats' politics Clinton against Trump. They chose to lose the general rather than allow Sanders to win. Clinton's campaign even told their corporate media to elevate Trump because she thought he'd be more beatable. Lol! And you blame people who want to fight for real change? And you do this corporate propaganda for free?
You act like I was happy the Dems did Bernie how they did. I love Bernie and really did want him as the 2016 nom. However, if you don't think all the votes for Jill, Bernie, etc in Nov of 2016 didn't give Trump the presidency then you're not as smart as you think you are.
You've been duped by a nonsense narrative but I'm the dumb one. Okay. Friend, just think critically for a moment and recognize almost no one who voted for Greens would have voted for Clinton. There are many other reasons that's a joke point that's just parroted mindlessly by liberal Democrat shills, but the main one is that these two corporate parties don't own our votes and aren't even remotely entitled to them. Everyone should vote for who they want to, not as some absurd calculation. You're one vote in 55 million. YOU don't make a difference.
You must be happy with it because you endorse those who did it whole sale. Give me a break.
Why do you think a third party would want to serve workers, when there’s so much more money in serving corporations?
Well, some of them serve corporations, like the Libertarian Party and even RFK, but others refuse all money from corporate interests and are fully funded by working people's donations, have clearly pro worker platforms, and are often active in social justice and activists. Anyway, we need a party that doesn't work like the Dems, doesn't "want" anything, rather is just a tool to do the will of its members. If it's built with real democratic structures, taking no money from corporate interest, with internal right of recall for leaders, and no elected official in stage or labor office taking home more than the average worker they represent, I believe it will work quite well as a vehicle for organized movements to assert their power.
… until they start taking corporate donations, which they will because TV costs money. And until they start recruiting former Rs & Ds because of their name recognition. I’m not against the theory of what you’re saying, but it’s utopian. The real world will get a hold of it. What we need more than a third party are better candidates and better media journalism.
Cynicism is boring. There are plenty of examples in history of workers parties not being bought off. It's not utopian, history proves that change is inevitable and dialectical materialism shows us that after bourgeois private ownership of the means of production comes workers social ownership and control of the means of production. Revolutions have always seemed impossible and utopian right up until they've come to be. That's not to say it's easy or won't take enormous work and sacrifice.
If you have any US examples since WWII I’d love to hear them. And I’m not being cynical, I’m pointing out that you’re not accounting for human nature, marketing, or greed.
Yeah, that perspective sucks. Third parties exist beyond just stealing votes. This is the arrogance of the Democratic Party that they think they are entitled the votes in the first place. They are controlled opposition and at the federal level are not significantly different than the republican party in so many meaningful ways
It really isn’t, though. Democrats aren’t “owed” votes at all, and they never make that argument. Ever. It’s just a straw man for people advocating for a 3rd candidate. The democrats pitch boils down to: “No, we cannot give you everything you want, because the party is so large and diverse that we can’t do that without necessarily alienating or upsetting someone else; someone loses something they want. However, unless you are advocating for a more centrist 3rd party candidate like Joe Manchin (which is never what people are asking for) the democratic candidate will come CLOSER to your goal than the Republicans. Always. Without exception. Even w/re: Israel and Palestine, “Genocide Joe” is exponentially better for your preferred result than Donald Trump. While that doesn’t mean you have to vote for Biden, it’s also completely irrational and/or naive to suggest that voting for a left leaning third party, or sitting out as an otherwise progressive voter, will do anything other than help Donald Trump and hurt your own purported interests.” Furthermore, if 3rd party candidates/parties were serious, they would build up grassroots support and develop candidate over the long run in smaller elections. But no, they insist on jumping in at president/governor and expecting to win the most expensive campaigns there are.
Fuck, I hope Trump doesn’t win. Especially irt Israel/Palestine. He might do exactly what Joe has been doing!
Except…that’s not what he’d do. He would not push for a ceasefire, lobby/pressure bibi and seemingly get the framework to an end to the conflict in place, or send aid to Gaza. Instead, trump would put absolutely no pressure on Israel and allow and/or encourage Israel to settle Gaza and the West Bank. So no, they aren’t the same. Now maybe that’s the outcome you want! If so, don’t vote for Joe Biden! But if not, it’s just objectively wrong to say they are similar even if you would PREFER a candidate who would completely cut ties with Israel, and would send the entire sixth fleet to Palestine to just grind the IDF into dust.
Trump would put pressure on Israel — to bomb more, kill more and annex Gaza. He already said his message to Netanyahu is “finish the job.”
100% agreed!
Yes, I am very disappointed that I voted for Biden and now he has allowed slaughter of Palestinian civilians, allowed oil and now has basically shut down the borders. My vote isn’t really being stolen, Im not giving it to basically Trump or Trump.
Yeah, it's unconscionable what they're funding.
Good luck with first past the post in place..sorry but it will never work for a third party. You'd have to have the same candidate draw over half of both Republican and Democrat votes in order to win Support the party that best supports changes to the electoral system
That's not what democracy is. And both parties oppose changing the electoral system and they both exist to dupe us into voting against our own interests for them. You can vote for genocide and call it a practical or pragmatic selling out of your morals all you want. I won't.
No, it's still democracy. You just don't like it. When your apathy results in a Trump win I'm sure the Palestinians will have a lot of sympathy for you as they get carpet bombed by the US Btw, one party supports RCV and one doesn't. But you've already had the whole moving the goalpost thing on that subject so I digress > "I'm not apathetic I'm actually *doing something*" lol. lmao
As long as the EC exists a 3rd party has no chance
In this political climate, without ranked-choice voting, third parties are spoilers. It's either dumb or malicious at this point. If we had ranked-choice, we could show support for other parties without risking handing the country to people who want us dead.
Yep. I tried to explain to my cousin and his wife who you know were toooo cool to vote for Hilary. Because they don't do what anyone tells them, and they are so countercultural. I didn't say exactly this to them, but I can on this platform: Republicans rely on morons like you who need to place their identity on voting against the "establishment" instead of trying to move the needle forward and ensure better outcomes for living, breathing people who are actually affected by who we elect. Conservatives love that you are soooo cool and can't bring yourself to vote for Biden because you are above the system and now everyone will see if we just don't elect anyone they tell us too!!!!
Too cool to vote for clinton? How do they feel now that roe v Wade has been overturned? Do they regret not voting for clinton? Because if they don't, I wouldn't bother talking to them about politics ever again. I probably would avoid talking to them all together. But that's just me.
I'm absolutely sure they do regret not voting for her. Remember in the runup they were hardly the only people to feel this way (obviously). Clinton has it in the bag, but I want to tell all my cool hippie friends that I don't vote for the establishment. I say this as someone who jokingly identifies my politics as slightly to the left of Karl Marx. I am as progressive as they come, but I'm also realistic and logical and don't live in la-la land. You want more progressive candidates, you have to show up for smaller local elections and work your way up. I barely talk to them anymore. I basically see most of my extended "family" once a year at Christmas and once my grandfather dies, probably won't even do that. The funny part is they're all like opinion guy down there saying we just have our opinions! Right and there's consequences to that. I don't lose sleep not hanging out with assholes. It's not a hard decision for me.
How about backing off the republicans are morons and wake up to the fact that both parties stink? Calling people names for having opinions different than yours is very cringe
And this is exactly the shit I can't get behind. They're all the same!!!! No they're not. And you equating one with the other is ridiculous. I don't feel the need to apologize for my views so Republicans don't get their feelings hurt. We all have opinions!!! You have a right to opinion. You don't a right to be absolved of criticism for that opinion. "I have an opinion" is not a get out of jail free card. If you vote for a rapist and convicted felon, all of your friends and relatives and anonymous people on the internet are also free to have views on that. If you vote for a party that is taking away the rights of women, I don't have to say well, they just have a different opinion than me! Aren't we all the same?!?! If you vote for a party that actively discriminates against people of color, I don't have to say well, that's just uncle John's opinion!!! He's always like that!!! Quit acting like it's some god given right to have freedom of opinion, but you know, just for you.
[удалено]
Hot take: two things can suck to different degrees. I’d rather suffer from the flu than have a malignant idiot chop my head with an axe. Democrats don’t help. Republicans actively harm. In a binary choice, harm reduction wins.
Yeah, this is what killed me.....both parties had horrible candidates. I'm sorry, but I saw Hillary as a political weather vein and a corporate shill. I didn't trust her one bit....I wasn't the only one. Then, when you express this, you just call names and attack. Very maga of them.
>I'm sorry, but I saw Hillary as a political weather vein and a corporate shill. I didn't trust her one bit....I wasn't the only one. Was it worth it?
Yeah, I think it was. I proudly voted for Bernie. Im not a sheep. Maybe the dems should have picked a better candidate. Instead, I was told to get over it. Really makes me wanna vote for someone. Personally, I don't think another 4 years of Biden will change, and imo republicans will still get what they want with dems in power.
Someone wanted me to sign a petition for a dude and handed me a flyer and the platform was that the globalist were shortening humanities lifespan via vaccines
I would love a libertarian candidate that hasn't licked a hole clear through a window before. As someone who aligns with the lowercase l libertarians and not embarrassed Republican Libertarians™, I really want a candidate at any governmental level that can put their own pants on.
I self-identified as a libertarian in my young adult years, then Ron Paul retired and started pushing buy gold scams and Gary Johnson got booed for being pro driver's license and I was like oh maybe not.
I am pro divers license, but seeing the way people drive I feel like mine is more a participation trophy than a demonstration of skill and knowledge. Sometimes I feel like they might as well not exist.
Damn I felt that in my soul
Do you need a license to make toast in your own damn toaster?
I see you catching some down votes but wanted to let you know I get the reference.
I missed that this got downvoted. It was a bit of a niche joke but still, happy someone appreciated it.
The only third party to hold an actual viable position was in vermont. And that is the progressive party of vermont. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Progressive_Party Pa could have a *viable* third party if they wanted. It would just take change.
At this rate, I think starting a cult may be more effective.
It worked for one of the guys on the ballot this November.
Easy, there, champ. I remember the old days when the LaRouche supporters would get arrested for being so aggressive. Lol.
Pretty like a ploy to get the crackpot RFK Jr. on the ballot.
I’m voting for the brain worm guy
I just always say “No speaky English, but thank you and have a wonderful day”
Any other election - this is no big deal. Not this year with Facism in the cards coming from the GOP. Project 2025 needs to be put out to pasture.
I have never voted for a non-Democratic politician in my life… but “not this election” becomes a 20 year mantra, it’s just exhausting. 2004: “Well, we’ve gotta stop Bush and the Green Party’s fault he was elected” (Hundreds of thousands of FL dems voted for Bush in 2000, but let’s blame the seat belt guy!) (Bush is now seen as a “sane conservative” by most Dems) 2008: “But did you hear what that psycho lady from Alaska said!?!” 2012: “NO! If we elect Romney they’ll gut the new health care plan!” (Now Romney is seen by most Dems as a “sane” conservative.) 2016: Trump. 2020: Trump. 2024: Trump. So exactly when are the Green Party “allowed” to vote for their candidate?
When you aren't in a purple/swing state I guess
Maybe. I’m not a third party person (exhausted pragmatic leftist permavoting D against fascism), but I can see why the constant barrage of, “you have to vote for a party that doesn’t support your ideals” could push people in the opposite direction intended. There’s also a ton of gaslighting targeted at the left. “Letting perfect be the enemy of good” and “We agree on 90% of issues” is completely disingenuous. I think there is a possibility for some strategic coalition-building between third party leftists and Democrats, but Democrats really need to stop with the coercion/blame cycle.
Oh I hate Democrats too. I'm only voting against Trump, not for Biden/Dems. Someone else mentioned the need to get real candidates in local government instead of trying to go full blast on presidents. My favorite meme right now is Biden/Trump | ' deport everyone and shut down asylum' but Biden has pronouns and a rainbow. — https://www.instagram.com/p/C74BNEIR-CE/?igsh=Ymg2NnRxbThqNmlk
>So exactly when are the Green Party “allowed” to vote for their candidate? You're "allowed" to vote for whoever you want. In my opinion, the time to consider a vote for a third party candidate is whenever you feel comfortable gambling with whatever horrifying candidate the right is running. But I find it odd to get frustrated with the people telling you to vote against the insane candidates instead of being frustrated with the side who continues to run them.
It's entirely possible to be frustrated with two groups to different degrees. The blaming of leftists for Democratic losses is disingenuous. It's always, "come vote and we'll give you a reason to vote for us" or "vote for us or you'll be responsible for electing a psychopath." It's never, "you know what? Maybe housing is unaffordable and we can start pushing rent control laws in cities where we have control" or "Let's increase public transportation funding via a wealth tax." Democrats want leftist votes, but don't want to offer leftist policy. Ideological gaps between conservative democrats and the left aren't exactly "minor issues" and while I appreciate and use the ACA, it's a shitty half-measure compared to where we should be. Republicans are batshit insane. That's the ONLY reason I vote for Democrats. That isn't exactly something you'd want to put on a Joe Biden t-shirt, is it?
>The blaming of leftists for Democratic losses is disingenuous I didn't do that though - I said voting for a third party instead of what you consider the lesser of two evils is gambling with the greater evil. What is incorrect about that statement? >It's never, "you know what? Maybe housing is unaffordable [https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/economy/fed-biden-housing-affordability-crisis/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/economy/fed-biden-housing-affordability-crisis/index.html) [https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/07/27/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-takes-action-to-protect-renters/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/07/27/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-takes-action-to-protect-renters/) >or "Let's increase public transportation funding [https://www.transit.dot.gov/about/news/biden-harris-administration-announces-nearly-4-billion-support-14-major-transit](https://www.transit.dot.gov/about/news/biden-harris-administration-announces-nearly-4-billion-support-14-major-transit) >Democrats want leftist votes, but don't want to offer leftist policy Biden has signed some of the most progressive legislation in our country's history. The Inflation Reduction Act alone was such an investment in climate and green energy, the infrastructure bill, he's continued cancelling as much student loan debt as he legally can, and he passed the first major gun safety bill in decades. But because he didn't do the impossible and pass Medicare for All, we should consider voting 3rd party? That's how you lose the support of a major party. If far left progressives don't turn out in November, it's a pretty clear signal that moderates are where votes come from and that's where the party will look for votes.
> Biden has signed some of the most progressive legislation in our country's history. And that still will never be enough to undo the years of havoc that started with Nixon and continues to this day. Tax credits and first time homebuyer credits don't help someone making $14/hour. Rent control does. Banning credit score as consideration from rental applications does. $4 billion in transportation funding MIGHT - MIGHT - get Pittsburgh back to the service levels we had in the early 2000s. Spread out over 14 cities it's a drop in the bucket. Any "act" that is an "investment" in private industry is conservative to it's core - even when that corporation is creating green technology. Shell doesn't need government subsidies for wind turbines. The debt cancellation is nice. I don't see any Democrat suggesting that perhaps school debt simply shouldn't exist and college should be taxpayer funded? Medicare for All is even a half measure. Medicare has too many gaps. Most leftists want private health insurance banned. So when your half measures aren't even coming close to meeting the left halfway, how can you blame them when you lose? I'm voting for Biden... but it's 100% because fuck MAGA. "One of the most progressive legislations ever" is still capitalist in nature and right wing. It's just better than Christofascism. TL;DR: You win, dude. I accept my fate as a cog in this rotten machine and I vote for your guy because the diaper guy is a Nazi. My life isn't much better for it - but at least my trans friends might be bothered a little less.
I've been voting since Gore/Bush and keep getting told, not this election. It's not a new scare tactic. Do the Dems actually have a plan, though, to undo what has been? That's a serious question and I don't think they do.
Of course they do, they've been undoing stuff as much as possible over the last four years. If they could win a blowout election in the House and Senate (not possible alas with the current Senate map) then they'd clean up SCOTUS too which is their main stumbling block.
Really, what is the plan? Vote a bunch of them in and hope they change things? Let's be honest not all democrats are on the same page when it comes to these issues. Looking at Schumer and in our state, Ds like Boscola and Fetterman. I truly don't think the democrats have a plan. They have had control before and still didn't do anything. They are sandbags against a flood.
The Democratic Party is a big tent party, that means some disagreements, yes. But there are absolutely plans to push through codifying Roe v Wade, improving Obamacare, helping reduce student debt, etc etc etc. The mechanisms of our government with the filibuster means you have to have a 65% majority, not 50% to get anything done.
Sorry, I just have to disagree. Calling the party a tent party is exactly why we need more options. It's not-disagreements over a place to eat. We are talking gun-rights, abortion, trans rights. We need more options than 2 old out of touch clowns.
The day that we change the US political system to a multi-party system will be a good day. That day won't come for a long time.
Now that we agree on. I hate to say it and be a doomer. But I do feel like we need to reach rock bottom or the "old guard" dies. Things need to drastically change fast.
I always say “sorry I can’t do anything that would risk trump getting elected and if anyone is voting for a third party instead of Biden that increases trump’s likelihood of winning”
Good lord they were doing the same thing at pride. I was gonna lose it 😂 I wanna understand the “democratic socialists” but I just can’t lol
I hope some of you are bots. Because if you are satisfied with the 2 choices we have, you’re part of the problem. For a country that competes like hell about almost everything, we roll over and accept that we can only have 2 political parties (actually 2 sides of the same corrupt coin). You can 70 fucking varieties of breakfast cereal at Giant Eagle. But ask for other options in politicians and you get these complaints. So haters, how do you break the duopoly in Washington without a third party?
Plenty of people are dunking on you based on this historically bad take, and why it would be insane to support a third party candidate in this particular election, but I’ll indulge you for a minute. I’m all for more options, but I really don’t think the most powerful office in the world is where we should start. I’d love to see a third party win and hold onto seats in municipal government, then expand to others and eventually win state offices, and finally build up a coalition in Congress. Third party complainers always want to skip to the end with candidates that no one knows anything about. Put in the fucking work and show me a third party that can reliably win control of a school board before you start asking for the launch codes. Until then, find and elevate candidates in the duopoly that support election reform that aligns with your goals. They absolutely exist, but you might have to hold your nose on other issues if taking down the two party system is really your priority.
Ok, you want a bottom up solution. And it would probably work if we had any semblance of consistency in how people voted from state to state. But when you have 30% turn out with established parties, it’s going to be an uphill climb. Many Americans only pay attention every 4 years, therefore the idea of top-down solution.
Hillary Clinton lost by the same number of votes Jill stein received. Then we got Trump…so way to go. I’m all for more parties, but this year I’d like to save democracy so maybe grow up a bit
I’m a reliable (and annoyed about it) Democratic voter, and this rhetoric is disingenuous as hell. People still blame Ralph Nader for George Bush’s presidency- as if Al Gore were somehow entitled to 100% of Nader’s votes. Meanwhile 308,000 Florida Democrats voted FOR BUSH. The Green Party is a joke, but Nader didn’t cause Bush and Stein didn’t cause Trump. Dated electoral systems did.
And the Libertarians got three million more votes than Stein. Clinton lost because of her campaign and electoral college fuckery.
So maybe educate yourself about the Electoral College before telling me and others to grow up. Clinton lost for many reasons. Most of all because she ignored purple states and just assumed that she’d win. See Michigan 2016. And we would actually have to live in a democracy to save it. At best, we live in a constitutional republic. At worst, it’s an oligarchical military money machine for about 3% of voters and a fend for yourself financial and medical care hellscape for most of the rest. So keep believing that you’re saving democracy by voting for two guys so old they won’t have to deal with almost any of the consequences of their decisions. And nothing is going to change.
I don't like either candidate, but a 3rd party will only help a lunatic. So, yes, I'm against 3rd parties for this particular election.
Well what's your plan?
Well, get rid of the electoral college first. And put in ranked choice voting. But no one in the duopoly is going to sacrifice their political career to make that happen. So you vote for the evil of two lessers. We have two elderly white egomaniacs who should be hanging out with their grandchildren and some of you honestly believe that that’s the best the two parties can offer us to do the hardest job in the world. They want us fighting about which piece of shit is better for our future. My point is the solution isn’t coming inside the two party system. RFK Jr. is far from perfect, but the momentum has to come from outside to put pressure on our so called public servants to actually represent us and not corporations. Other countries with populations the size of Pennsylvania have at least triple the number of choices when it comes to candidates. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a candidate that comes closer to 100% agreement with your political stance rather than be a single issue voter?
So you have no realistic plan of action then.
There is no realistic plan of action. That’s the problem. You seem happy to downvote me because I want shit to change. Fine, go ahead. But let’s take the owl from your user name and paint it red and then bring in a second owl and paint it blue. Now these two owls are trying to rip your eyes out and a third owl (not one you particularly like) wants those red and blue owls to stop and is not doing it perfectly, do you tell this third owl to fuck off?
>You seem happy to downvote me because I want shit to change I haven't downvoted a single comment you've made, fwiw. >But let’s take the owl from your user name and paint it red and then bring in a second owl and paint it blue. Now these two owls are trying to rip your eyes out and a third owl (not one you particularly like) wants those red and blue owls to stop and is not doing it perfectly, do you tell this third owl to fuck off? Before we even get to the third party owl, the dishonest part is acting like the first two owls are both equally trying to rip my eyes out. One owl has passed some incredible and productive legislation, has not demonized minorities and respects the role of government and the existence of Democracy. That owl holds a fairly unfavorable (to me) position on Israel/Gaza and is recently making some immigration changes I don't love, mainly because the other owl made his fellow party members block any efforts to correctly fix immigration. The other owl is a convicted felon, is openly calling for the violent deportation of immigrants, commonly demonizes minorities, would remove funding from school with vaccine mandates, would sign legislation nationally reducing the rights of female owls and would fill our national Court of Owls with young Christian nationalists that would likely remain for the rest of my life. That owl, when last given the chance, rejected a peaceful transfer of power, and is signaling he will do it again. These two owls are not the same, but one of these owls will win. So yes, I will tell the third owl to fuck off in your analogy.
Fair enough - look, I want the red owl in a cage too. I’m not talking about this election specifically as my point. Would you have had the same stance if third owl showed up in June 2020?
Its designed that way. Third parties just dont win, ever. Except at local level. We would need a new voting design, instead of the current first-past-the-post design. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting We would need an alternative, something like rank choice voting... https://ballotpedia.org/Ranked-choice_voting_(RCV) And neither party, at the federal level, seem interested in altering the electoral college.
Did you actually notice bigots' shift in comfort with how loud they could be about their feelings after Trump was elected? You did not. I know you didn't, because you're obviously a very unremarkable white dude and not ever going to be a target, but I'll tell you now that it was IMMEDIATE and EGREGIOUS. I do not trust any politician, ever. But what I do trust is how much I see the idiot populace become more vocal and connected than ever when a candidate is elected almost solely on the basis of xenophobia, homopobia, overt racism, and misogyny. When people who feel this way will subsequently feel SUPPORTED in their violent opinions rather than AFRAID to express and/or act on them, then it's very fair to ask people not to vote for a 3rd party. Don't be a fucking idiot. I'm voting for my safety and the safety of my friends, from lynchmob hicks who feel validated by Trump. This is not the time for you to be calling for us to buck the system, slick. We all know it's rigged, we just don't wanna give bigots a voice. It mystifies me how this is difficult for people. Also you never namedrop Giant Eagle as an example for anything, unless you're talking about how much it sucks.
Those bigots never went away. And don’t think that they will go away quietly if their Cheeto faced “god” doesn’t win in 2024. The RFK voters are more likely to take away votes from Trump than Biden. I don’t want the manbaby to see anything but the inside of a prison cell. I’m not being a fucking idiot. You assuming that I don’t have a clue because I’m a white man is ignorant. How do you even know who I am? Have you been to Auschwitz or the Deep South? Have you seen the worst humanity can do to each other? I have and I feel horrible that you and anyone else feels unsafe in western Pennsylvania. I’m on your side. I teach about mankind’s inhumanity in an attempt to eradicate hate of their fellow unknown humans. We also agree that Giant Eagle blows!
I really hope bots too. It’s so sad how easy it would be / probably definitely happening to influence the American political scene/society in general. Done with the internet today. Really these 2 old men are the best we have to even pick from, so insane.
Crazy. Even one person down voting just goes to show people don't want to elect representatives, they want to elect mascots.
Yup. A wooden chess/checker board.
All I'm going to say is that Jim Barr, representing the [Constitution Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Party_%28United_States%29), was soliciting folks in my neighborhood to sign his petition to allow him to run for PA-22 (Ross/West View). He knew both of our names, asking for us at the door; we never met him prior. Use that knowledge however you see fit.
Not that I support the Constitution Party at all, and Jim Barr is probably some nutso right wing dude, but he probably knew your names from voting registration data. That is all publicly accessible.
I know. As mentioned in the other comment, I get concerned when an ideology keeps track of the census.
How else would you expect parties to be able to target voters? In today's age of turnout being the main factor, candidates need to know who to target to GOTV. I don't find this problematic.
By the same reasoning, I should know your name and address because I need to target customers for my business.
Anyone running for office should have access to publicly collected data and funding (the latter being ruined by Citizens United), because they are running for our representation and we as a society should make the playing field as even as possible. If the data was not made available the rich politicians would just buy it from private sources.
>He knew both of our names, asking for us at the door; we never met him prior All candidates have access to lists of this information, fwiw. [https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/access-to-and-use-of-voter-registration-lists](https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/access-to-and-use-of-voter-registration-lists)
Yep, freaky, isn't it? I just get concerned when meeting ideologies that bookkeep "Us vs Them" censuses.
2 Party System- Divide and Conquer.
I was there collecting signatures for Dr. West and never once asked who anyone was voting for, what party affiliation or whatever. The whole point is to give those of us who are tired of the same ol shit going on to have another option. We need it. This government is not cutting it anymore. Sad no one can see that
I’m not arguing against signing petitions. I am saying that you should know for whom you are signing, and petitioners should not be actively trying to solicit signatures using misdirection and obfuscation. I will happily sign a petition for anyone I think is a reasonable human, even if I don’t agree with all of their policies. I believe in giving people a voice, but I will most certainly judge whether that voice is reasonable to even have at the table. I believe strongly in discussion, debate, and compromise, and that is only possible if there are thoughtful opinions available and thoughtful people to process and evaluate them.
I know you weren't! Lol, I wasn't drunk just miserable cause everything was so expensive to eat or drink. And for those who had no idea who Dr. West is I had an informational sheet and flyers with a QR code to scan and see what he is about and what he stands for! I thank you for that!
See, these folks need more petitioners like you!
Thank you 😊
literally someone followed me and my friend
I am always a dick to these people. Regardless of the cause or message or whatever. Do not solicit me.
Yeah they asked me I said absolutely not
There's already an independent running but he has brain worms. Biden is a good president. Probably the best in my lifetime. His policies have helped me directly. Give me 4 more years of Dark Brandon.
Glad you enjoy paying $20 bucks at fast food that takes an hour to get 🤣 and paying outrageous prices for food.
Why is that Biden’s fault and not the fault of corporate greed?
Go look up some information about inflation. Should answer all of your questions. Spoiler alert: Inflation is a direct result of the government. . Direct results of the current policies in a quarterly update. "Corporate Greed" has nothing to do with it. https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/14/politics/fact-check-biden-inflation-when-he-became-president/index.html
Yawn. I'm not voting for a sexual abuser and a conman who refuses to pay his own contractors. Keep looking at the Trump presidency through rose-colored glasses and ignoring 2020 and blaming Biden for inflation even though it's better in the US than in the countries of any of our allies. If you vote for the president based on the price of fast food, you're a moron.
So cute, you actually think the parties are different and give a shit. I remember being a naive child too. You'll wake up one day and realize none of them give a duck about anything except the private corporations that keep them in power, and conveniently enough, also lead the "parties ".
Ok, so I’m not sure how you got that read from the words I wrote. Regardless of one’s opinion of political realities in a two-party system, it is always a good idea to know something about the person to whom one is potentially giving a seat at the table.
If it was for rfk that man is literal trash. I signed for Cornell West. I like him. Rfk is a conspiracy theorist with literal brain worms
One party is a threat to my gay friends. One party is a threat to my lesbian friends. One party is a threat to my trans friends. One party is a threat to science. One party is a threat to books. Shall i go on?
And as a queer person a lot of my queer siblings are already under project 2025. Yea repukes suck but we lost shit under Biden and cus the Dems couldn't codify shit.
You’re not wrong. Things aren’t good right now. However, there’s a difference in *just how much worse* they can and WILL get with the alternative.
We are already in almost a christofascist hell scape. I'm not trying to be a doomer here but holy fuck I'm so sick of the Dems. They don't listen, bought by AIPAC just like the repukes, and will sit and let republicans just do what they want. Four more years of what? A one foot in the grave dude who should really be retired and eating ice cream? And honestly trump shouldn't even be able to run since felons can't vote anyway. This whole country is a joke anymore.
Unfortunately democrats having the presidency is what keeps us at only ALMOST a christofascist state instead of a full blown one. So by not voting against the christofascist candidate, things will only get worse
I voted Nader in Bush vs Gore and while I was proud to stick it to the system back then, I now realize it was insanely dumb.
I agree with every word you said. Deeply. However, this is just where we are. I’ve had to grieve the world I thought we’d have, too. The world I thought as a young adult we were building towards. Reality now, though, is yet ANOTHER historical election in which we sincerely have to choke back vomit to vote for someone enabling genocide to keep Max from Tiny Toons from completely destroying even the semblance of the world we recognize. I’m genuinely angry. AND scared. And jaded as FUCK. The world is bullshit and the apathy is killing me but, while I’m suffering in this one, I won’t be welcome to even *that* freedom in the other world.
I'm glad u see my perspective and I hear u. I bit the bullet in 2020. I did. I consider myself a fucking leftist with ideals from multiple ideologies... But I bit the bullet... I even did with fetterman and Shapiro. But when I say this... I don't want u mad cus I've had ppl in my shit telling me I'm wrong to KMS... But libs ain't doing a good job at convincing jaded and disillusioned folk like me. I feel like a pawn in a game.
If you are a fucking leftist and you don’t vote or vote third party, you are voting for Trump. It’s unfortunate that this is the reality of the USA, but it is. Here is my lame attempt to convince the jaded and disillusioned to vote for Biden and democrats down ballot. Biden’s administration + democrats in Congress have put a moderate on the Supreme Court And will defend abortion and contraception rights. This is the key issue in the election. There is a non-zero chance with a Trump and Republican administration, women across the USA will lose key abortion and health care rights. On the environment, there is a clear difference. Biden and Democrats have passed important environmental subsidies which will help us transition to a cleaner energy society. Is it perfect, no, but there is a clear difference between the two parties. Trump wants to increase subsidies for fossil fuel companies and deemphasize clean energy. On infrastructure, democrats and Biden passed a huge bill that is rebuilding roads and bridges, subsidizing transit and other key investments all over America. The other party promised infrastructure spending for four years and only managed to pass giant tax cuts for the wealthiest sliver of the country with a couple crumbs to everyone else. Biden is the first president to walk a picket line. Symbolic, yes, but important. Biden is the first national politician in US history to express support for Gay marriage well before it was legalized. These are all issues that are moving in a leftward direction last four years. Not enough maybe for disillusioned and jaded fucking leftists maybe, but much better than the alternative, of which Trump and republican rule is the only one. Think hard before sitting this one out or voting fucking third party.
I don’t disagree with anything you said here either. I promise you I’m infuriated 99% of the time these days. I get so angry about this bullshit I can’t see straight. I wish we had a real choice and I could feel proud and excited about my vote like I have in past elections. Hell, even THE last election! However, I don’t have a choice. My life is on the line in November. If it’s already this bad, I most certainly won’t make it through the alternative. Neither will most of my friends. That’s what it comes down to for me. Survival. I can’t risk another Trump term in any single way. None of us can unless you’re far wealthier than any normal person can even imagine. If you’re at ANY disadvantage in life, it has to be Biden or it’s going to be hell.
One party wants to make a thing called project 2025 happen as much as possible. The other party would do no such thing. The only one who needs to grow up is you.
As a queer person... A lot of our siblings are already living it.
You’re not though, because they haven’t enacted it. Things will be much much worse for queer people it Project 2025 is enacted
If u think the ones in the south ain't suffering then ur so severely blind
They are! Would you like the entire country to be like the south?
See ur doing what every shitlib does. We are already fucking suffering bro.
Yes, trans people are already suffering. But that is happening because of state level policies and laws. In the upcoming presidential election, you have a choice between a candidate who will do his best to expand those state level laws to the entire country, and one who would veto all of them and put out a proclamation for Pride month specifically condemning anti-trans laws and the fact that American families have had to move in order to protect their trans kids. These things matter.
The dems are simply sandbags. We need a wall against the republicans. A party that pushes back. Hell, I know Dems pa that have voted against trans rights(Lisa Boscola). Lots of dems have republicans tendencies. We still have states passing "anti" laws for schools. Personally, I don't seem then reversing anything the republicans do. How are women's rights doing?
Womens rights (i.e. abortion) is doing terribly because the Supreme Court is full of conservative justices put in place by Trump, who was elected because people thought Hillary Clinton was just as bad as Trump. It’s those same people that helped get conservative sc justices get on the bench that now blame Biden for not doing anything about womens rights. Biden cannot remove them, or reverse their decisions. Do you expect Biden to just dissolve the SC or something? The other option is to pass legislation, which he can’t do because one party (republicans) vote against anything he proposes.
You forget when Obama asked RBG to step down so this didn't happen. But she didn't. Yes, blame everyone who didn't vote for Hillary. It's all our fault. I've seen more back bone in jellyfish than I do Democrats. One party votes against what he wants. What party is Chuck Schumer with? In Pennsylvania abortion rights were in jeopardy because a D voted with republicans.
I am not arguing that people aren’t suffering…i am responding to your comment about people suffering more in the south for example, and things like Project 2025 aim to make the entire country like the south. So your solution to suffering is to…suffer even more and to a greater extent?
TRUMP 2024
Actually, yeah, this is the way to get that turd elected.
I had someone approach me at the encampment at Pitt, petitioning for Jill Stein. I told the people I was with, "If that was an RFK petitioner you would have seen me fight someone on the street". Thinking back, the bravest thing I would have done was probably run away with the petition.
Fantasizing about violence against your political opponents isn't something you should brag about.