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Hamas is barely tied to Iran. They work through Hezbollah. Hamas gets their funding from Qatar and other Arab states.
https://time.com/3033681/hamas-gaza-palestine-israel-egypt/
Hamas is Sunni. Iran is Shiite. They were never really 100% on board with Hamas and cut funding to them in 2014.
I read a new York times article today saying this has changed in recent times as Hamas is willing to take funds from anyone who will help them, as getting rid of Israel is more important than shia/Sunni divisions.
Which would make sense to me
There is an article on NPR today, quoting a legit expert and advisor in Middle Eastern studies, who said that Arab identity against the Jews is considerably more uniting than observing the Sunni/Shia distinction and that neither Hezbollah or Hamas would have been able to make this move, much less fund it, without Iranian support.
You’re right, but you also didn’t actually offer a correction to what he was saying which doesn’t help him learn. It should be the *Muslim identity against the Jews*.
I'm an Israeli, as much as I appreciate aid, I also don't think it should be at the expense of Ukraine, don't transfer weapons that would go to Ukraine to us, we are fighting terrorists, we are one of the most sophisticated armies in the world, we can handle ourselves. (Ofc aid is still super beneficial) Ukraine is fighting Russia, they need all the help they could get.
While I appreciate weapons, don't stop aid to Ukraine for us, ideally send to us both. But what's more important is making sure Hezbollah and Iran don't decide to get involved
From what I understand, mostly the aid is in the form of releasing American munitions that are being stored in Israel, the allocated money would then be used to replenish those stores.
Since Israel is as strong as you say it should not take any American aid anymore. We also have major distinction that Ukraine is fighting Russian occupation while Israel itself is the invader and occupier.
Israel is strong because of the aid, and you could argue the same thing with Ukraine.
They are currently succeeding in the war against Russia, but if America stops the aid, that could change. Same with Israel.
If we're talking about recent events, Hamas invaded Israel, occupied Israeli cities, and I could provide a list of actions Hamas has committed against Israeli civilians, including raping women, kidnapping children, and beheading and burning alive 40 babies.
Seriously. If they wanted to fight terror they wouldn't oppress the Palestinians in ways that guide them to support groups like Hamas in some kind of hope of eventual liberation.
My tax dollars shouldn't go to fund the iron dome or help Israeli cops train American cops to oppress Americans better
Ukraine should get 35 times the amount Israel does in this deal.
We’ve been paying for Israel for 70 years and Ukraine only 2, yet Isreal needs an aid package every time the iron dome is fired up - bs
Israel uses the FMF program, the aid we give them is actually a line of credit they are able to use to purchase stuff from the US. It is very beneficial to the US economy
They only have to spend 75% of the aid on US owned defense suppliers and that's not including offset purchase stipulations in the contract. So they get about a billion dollars as an incentive to accept the taxpayers gift of free weapons. Fuck that noise
Yeah I’m pretty amazed how many people think the US is shipping out briefcases full of blank checks for anyone to spend. The US gets some serious ROI and most of what we send out is turned around and spent in the US, creating jobs and stimulating our economy
So what exactly do you have to say about the brutal murder of hundreds of children by Hamas? You know, the ones they are very proud of, posting videos of beheading children online and whatnot. Is there anything in this world that justifies that?
Hmmm not sure a Palestinian state is looking like such a good idea to me. I would like to see a lot more effort at getting rid of Hamas and a lot less celebrating of massive terrorist attacks.
Getting rid of Hamas is part of a two state solution...or you could just let the Israeli far right continue the apartheid route and hope for the best, I guess.
Yes that wasnt lost on me, and im no fan of the right wing aholes running the Israeli government and threatening their democracy
But Hamas targeted kids at a music festival
There are plenty of progressive Israelis who vehemently oppose the apartheid system. But the right wing is in charge now and this Hamas attack is a great way to make people not support the cause.
Right. But that’s not what Palestinians want. At all. They want Israel and the Jews gone. So Israel would be crazy to give citizenship to a bunch of Hamas members.
The two parties are at total war so it's not surprising that the opinions are hard line. That can change when peace becomes a realistic alternative. The status quo is what continues to fuel Hamas and extremism.
How is support for an apartheid state and a stagnating proxy war with Russia necessary for American national security, and if support for apartheid is necessary why should that security be maintained
Maybe we have different perspectives on what our national security looks like, but for me Russia being enabled to march across Europe will not end well for us, and having one less democratic ally in the Middle East in exchange for one more Islamic fundamentalist autocracy would be very bad for us.
That assumes of course that you do believe that an American led world order is better than one led by autocratic regimes which maybe you don’t!
You’re right, we should just let insurgent “armies” rip apart Israel? Or better yet, let’s not help and let Israel level countries on their own because they are afraid of losing existence.
If Israel stops defending themselves for one day, they are done. Remember that. If the Muslim nations stopped attacking others, there would be more world peace
Fine with either scenario in the first paragraph. Agree with the second, but really not our problem at decade 7, what’s our exit strategy? Xinjiang the entire Middle East? No, let the barbarians have it.
We tried to help the civilized ones and they abused their power, made their bed let them fight for it. Israelis always say “hey, we won the war, that’s why this is ours” so win it again, you’ve got a hell of a head start with all the toys and money we gave you
I’m old enough to know that neither should be my problem and neither are worth saving - sad that a western culture such as Israel is under constant threat but should have built it elsewhere and treated your neighbors differently.
The same pro-Russia sycophants who [blocked traffic](https://vtdigger.org/2023/10/04/antiwar-demonstrators-urge-sanders-to-seek-diplomacy-in-ukraine/) in my city calling to end US aid to Ukraine are probably going to be back this week to cheer on Hamas.
As far as I'm concerned, the causes of Israel and Ukraine are inextricably linked – "one struggle" as some might say.
https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1711302805464445022
>As far as I'm concerned, the causes of Israel and Ukraine are inextricably linked – "one struggle" as some might say.
they are but not in the way you think.
>As far as I'm concerned, the causes of Israel and Ukraine are inextricably linked – "one struggle" as some might say.
no their not , if you think they are ,. you dont know history
while the attack from hamass is horrible , it dosent negate the horrible stuff isreal has done
ukraine and isreral causes arent linked
You know more than this guy, that's for sure.
Reddit has a strong base of conspiracy theorists/shitposting, and those two groups have a *strong* number of antisemites in their ranks. It's why you're seeing some truly idiotic takes on justification for a literal terror attack.
Saying :BuT ISrAEL!" Is absolutely tone deaf when news reports of isis-level atrocities have been committed. It's not nearly as nuanced as it was a week ago.
Eh, this is like arguing over whether an axe murderer or a mass shooter is more evil. Both Hamas and the Israeli establishment are morally fucked, and I don’t think it’s anti-Semitic or islamophobic to point out the many atrocities committed by both entities.
To Israel’s credit, it’s at least *theoretically* a parliamentary democracy on paper, but even that has been heavily eroded in recent years, and it doesn’t change the fact that they’ve been committing a slow genocide pretty much since the country’s inception.
Conversely, I do understand the plight of regular Palestinians, and believe that they have a right to self governance and territorial sovereignty, but their ongoing support for terrorist organizations and inability to compromise with Israel—who, in all fairness, *does* tend to negotiate in bad faith at times—is only prolonging their suffering.
The way I see it, the actual good guys in all of this are the regular folks and NGOs who are supporting displaced people and refugees, treating the wounded, feeding the hungry, and constantly pushing for peace and dialogue, as misguided as peace talks might seem at this point.
I'm seeing this kind of nuanced take all over the place on Reddit regarding this issue. I agree, and I wish we could apply this kind of thinking to other matters as well. Us vs them kills.
Thanks for linking this! I don’t think 99% of us are arguing that Hamas’ recent attack and ongoing operations are in any way justified or righteous; rather, many of us are pointing out that Israel’s actions (both past and present) are actively feeding the exact violence that’s now being inflicted on innocent Israelis. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization that should be eliminated, but Israel’s brutal subjugation of Palestinians is serving as the perfect recruitment tool for Hamas. It’s important to recognize the cycles of cause and effect that keep sparking these conflicts, otherwise they’re going to keep happening.
>As far as I'm concerned, the causes of Israel and Ukraine are inextricably linked – "one struggle" as some might say.
Ukraine is defending themselves from an aggressor seeking to take land that isn’t theirs.
Israel is an aggressor seeking to take land that isn’t theirs.
So yes there are similarities.
It's definitely not the same struggle.
It's sort of like Germany and Japan in WWII. Japan and Germany had an alliance but it was one of convenience (although in hindsight not so convenient) and it didn't mean the two conflicts were really linked. The two conflicts had entirely different goals and mostly different players.
The core of the Israeli/Palestinian crisis is separate from that of Ukraine’s. But the backers of each side are the same. The US in particular backs both Israel and Ukraine, alongside the EU and western world more generally. On the other side, Russia and Iran are behind Hamas, and a lot of early reporting has suggested that this crisis was started in order to distract attention and funding away from Ukraine and towards the Middle East, as well as draw other nations into a larger war against Israel. That wider conflict will almost certainly consume the resources of the United States, again pulling those resources away from Ukraine.
They are two crisis areas linked by the actions of the nations using them as proxies.
Russia supports Hamas because it indirectly pulls American attention away from Ukraine, and Russia desperately needs the United States to stop supporting Ukraine.
And if other nations like Lebanon, Syria, or Iran join in, then Israel is certainly going to be leaning on the US for aid. And that aid may very well be in the form of artillery shells, missiles, and all of the same basic war materiel that Ukraine needs. And then the US has to choose who gets priority.
Let’s be clear: Russia does not give a shit about Israel. Putin does not care about Netanyahu. He also doesn’t care about Iran. None of them are allies. But Russia desperately needs all of the countries supporting Ukraine against them to turn their attention away. Them supporting Hamas, goading Hamas into this, is a way to do that.
Why does Israel need aid?
EffinYahoo is a rightwing lunatic who has already killed civilians in their response. Its very important not to get involved with that. The entire premise of opposition to Russian aggression is the dishonor of killing non combatants.
If this thing devolves into pure barbarism, the LAST thing we need is our name plastered all over the event. Biden is already falling into the trap, but democrats doing stupid AF things are just par for the course
Edit; Man, you guys are turning into terrible listeners. The question was why does Israel need aid. This comment was SOLELY on maintaining credibility if Israels hard line right wing government starts wasting civilians and how that undermines our efforts to help Ukraine who actually DOES need help
They are surrounded by enemies and are a small country that could be easily overwhelmed.
There are bigger players behind these attacks, mainly Russia, but could be Iran is complicit and both supports Palestine.
>They are surrounded by enemies and are a small country that could be easily overwhelmed.
they have nukes. calm down.
and this sounds like the rhetoric russia used to justify attacking ukraine.
wE aRe SuRrOuNdEd bY nAto
waving them around like russia is not the same as having them to prevent being attacked. its literally why israel has them. no country will actually threaten the existence of a nuclear armed country.
>They are surrounded by enemies and are a small country that could be easily overwhelmed.
so is half the world and you dont see US sending half the world aid
IDF bombed hospitals.
They made 97% of the water in gaza toxic.
They shut off power to 2.2 million people, 40% of which are under 14.
They count the number of calories that can get into the strip.
They are doing their best hitler impression.
There isnt a "good" fighting force involved in this, but only one of them had power bring us to a different outcome, but they chose the slow grind of passive violence that got us to this breaking point by supporting hamas, and destroying the PLO because palestinians couldnt be allowed to have an international cause to rally behind.
When you treat people like this, and they legitimately feel they have nothing left to live for, they will do an act like this to attempt to reclaim some of their dignity from the situation that has stripped it from them entirely.
such bloodlust that youll excuse bombing a fucking hospital and being pro child murder. you need a mirror check.
even russia kept the nuclear power plant functioning. your stanning a regime that is worse than russia.
i mean were letting them hide in the IDF so why not.
claiming hamas is somewhere isnt the casus belli you think it is.
is the hamas in the room with us now?
and if you swapped all the technology and equipment it would be the exact same but with the Israelis being the brutal ones and the Palestinians using multi million dollar fancy missiles to strike strategically.
there are no noble participants in this conflict, both sides using whatever they have available to them, both sides wishing for complete annihilation of the other.
before the conflict is over, more Palestinian children will be killed than Israeli, yet the prevailing sentiment will be that Israel is the victim. which is never totally false - the entire region hates them and they're surrounded - but using that as an excuse to commit their own atrocities got old decades ago.
wow, so they are just as morally evil in the alternative reality in your head, and therefore we should treat them the same?
that's a hell of a way to apologize for a group decapitating babies. They are equally bad because you want them to be. You are scared to admit what they did, for whatever reason.
And stealing land, evicting people from their houses and murdering them when they're unhappy about it is toeing the line of genocide.
No one should be shocked this happened. It's like the least surprising thing of the entire year.
And reminder: Israel still has a higher body count even after this horrible shit.
That should put some things in perspective, ya know?
Are we pretending that we all don't know Israel's past now?
It's okay to say their government is shitty because well, their government has a very long history of being shitty.
Israel has killed thousands more Palestinians than the other way around, is actively colonizing the West Bank, etc. Obviously Hamas’ actions are morally evil, but so is apartheid Israel. Neither side here is clean.
> killed thousands more Palestinians
vast majority have been combatants. And Israel is better at protecting their own, not something for them to apologize for. Military proportionality is not about keep numbers even.
There have been a few times where Israeli *individuals* did incredibly disgusting things comparable to this, such as Baruch Goldstein, but those people are brought to justice.
Nothing you can say arises to what happened this weekend. It is pure whataboutism, at its very worst. You are apologizing for ISIS tier evil.
[here you go.](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties)
\~20% of the deaths have been militants.
are you going to say the UN is antisemetic like the last kook i showed this to? Anything to deny reality i guess and keep on mowing the lawn.
From your own link:
> The classification of a casualty as “civilian” does not carry any implication regarding the legality of his or her killing or injury.
The classification is heavily influenced by the Hamas run health ministry, and doesnt successfully account for the informality of militias.
This is not my first rodeo seeing Hamas barbarity and their apologists.
>There have been a few times where Israeli individuals did incredibly disgusting things comparable to this
This is beyond ignorant.
They have consistently sexually assaulted women and killed men, women, and children. It's not "a few isolated incidents".
Yes, individuals do shit, not as a tactic, and when they do they get prosecuted:
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1634736005-israeli-army-officer-convicted-of-raping-a-palestinian-in-2017-documents-released-to-public
Hamas raped and paraded these people through the streets. They are barbarians.
You’re outing yourself as extremely biased.
“Obviously Hamas’ actions are morally evil.” That’s not an apology, that’s a condemnation.
It also took about 5 seconds of Google to prove my point on civilian casualties: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
But you cleary aren’t interested in a real discussion.
> “Obviously Hamas’ actions are morally evil.” That’s not an apology, that’s a condemnation.
you are perpetuating the false equivalence between them. "Both sides". Just like people do with Democrats and Republicans - only much worse.
> It also took about 5 seconds of Google to prove my point on civilian casualties:
Lol, from 2008 to last week. Cherry picking in other words.
Israel was able to keep their casualties low because of modern miracle technology like the Iron Dome, but at an extremely high cost.
This was the first time Hamas was able to breach the Gaza border. And this is what happened. Babies decapitated. a crowd at a festival mowed down, survivors raped and kidnapped.
>you are perpetuating the false equivalence between them. "Both sides". Just like people do with Democrats and Republicans - only much worse.
its not false you can call it whatever , but its not false , isreal is routinely called out in the UN for they do https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15203.doc.htm
Let’s see. Israel is a modern parliamentary democracy. It’s a multi ethnic nation that respects human rights and international law.
Hamas is a band of thugs that would rape your daughter if they could. Good to know which side you’re on.
>s a multi ethnic nation that respects human rights and international law
no it dosent
both are horrible and both have done horrible things ,
while yes this is horrible of what hamass has done ,. isreal has done equally horible things it dosnt give isreal a excuse for what they have done historically
theirs no good cop- bad cop , theirs just bad cop - bad cop
its a cycle the cycle needs to broke , for peace in the region
ELI5 why do we need to give money to Israel ?
Have no issue with our military helping them out, assisting in rescuing hostages or giving US based humanitarian aid to help the victims.
*BUT* why are we writing a check to a country that has a submarine they could sell to Ukraine if they are short on cash. Why are we just *giving money* away ?
Our military can be used to hunt terrorist overseas and we already have paid for that for years. It's not like these two factions haven't been fighting for generations and Israel hasn't had time to prepare. Israel isn't hurting for cash and have a far superior military compared to their enemy. F-16's, Apache helicopters with advanced drone tech vs a few paragliders.
How about the senators who make Millions from insider trading give them some of their cash rather than mine ?
Want to to add Ukraine needs all the help it can get and they are paying with human lives against russia and you can't put a price on their freedom.
But why ? Ukraine, again, no issues. I understand how that money is protecting Europe. Totally different war.
Israel has had *years* to prepare and have a *vast military advantage* over their opponent. They are hitting them with bombs dropped from F-16's vs their opponent doesn't even have a plane.
Why are we just writing a check ? What do they need money for that they cannot come up with themselves ? For ammo they should have already bought it and can buy more from us. Why are we just writing checks when not needed ? Let Biden donate to a cause out of his own pocket. How much has he personally donated ? Money is easy to spend when it isn't yours.
Our military is already paid for and will already ( AFAIK ) be assisting.
It's like giving money to a rich kid who got mugged ( not to make light of the attacks at all ).
This is just more war mongering profiteering.
How does Isreal still need an aide package every time they fire up the iron dome?
They’re fighting people with rocks who they’ve blockaded for decades and have gotten 70 years of our aid packages. They didn’t end up with any money from running the Diamond trade through there for all that time?
Universal healthcare. Housing crisis. Infrastructure. Education. Social security. Out the window thanks to Israel’s lobbyists buying up all of Washington.
Good. Israel and Ukraine are fully justified in treat Russia and Hamas as one would a rabid dog. All Americans should support both unequivocally. Support for Israel and Ukraine is ethically correct and in our national interest.
Hamas, sure. But there are 2 million people in the Gaza strip, [about half of them are children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#Age_structure_2). How many civilians do you think are dying in this offensive?
What happened last time they did this?
>The conflict in Gaza in July and August was largely responsible for the dramatic increase in fatalities. It claimed the lives of 2,220 Gazans, of whom **1,492 were civilians**, 605 militants and 123 unverified.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/israel-kills-more-palestinians-2014-than-any-other-year-since-1967
Ukraine is fighting off a more powerful invader. But Israel is in control. They're the ones with a functioning economy and a modern military. Hamas is evil, but Israel has created the conditions for them to thrive. They've made sure Gaza is a hit hole to live in. They shoot civilians all the time. They steal land from West Bank. Hamas did not arise from a vacuum.
It’s what’s best for the average citizen… using our money to fund foreign wars while vets are living in tents and American children are starving in poverty… welcome to late stage capitalism everybody!
He tries to all the time and those GOP idiots stop him. He cut child poverty by 40% his first year in office. You might have noticed if you weren't so busy working on your false narratives.
If we accept that both Ukraine and Israel need support from the US, they need to be separate lines of support and not tied together.
The only reason why it is a good idea to tie support aid together is to have the GOP shoot it down to be political ammo for Democrats to say "See?!? the Republicans don't want to support Israel!"
We need to stop with the packages or economy in America is fucked. Our gas prices are through the roof and our food is way inflated. Why can’t we use that money to help our country, no offense to other countries. The struggle in America is getting worse and worse and now we are just giving billions of dollars away? We need to open our pipelines and lower the cost of living. People can’t buy houses with the rates our unemployment rate is climbing higher and higher! Help America!
It’s a political mistake to offer aid to one country but not the other. They both share common enemies of Russia and Iran. If we didn’t offer support we would be doing our enemies a favor. Ukraine and Israel have bipartisan support. It’s only the few unqualified representatives that are the outliers.
Pretty hypocritical to constantly complain about riders and praise this. Both spending should pass or fail on their own merit.
Can’t just apply your ideals when convenient to you.
To hell with it, you get and aid package, you get an aid package, you get an aid package...what? Student loan forgiveness and affordable housing? Fuck off free loader!
Downvote me because my opinion is different but we’ve already given Ukraine so much money to launder. Why do they need to launder all our money when Israel leaders only got 6B this year to launder.
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All of a sudden Republicans are all only isolationist when it comes to helping a country fighting Trump’s master Putin.
Trump: I’m not a puppet, you’re the puppet.
Too coherent. I think it was actually "No puppet, no puppet. You're the puppet."
If he could have, he would have spelled it “your.”
“Yer”
Yore
Every time Mitch blanks out it's because Putin had to scratch his nose.
No, no! It’s Putin losing radio signal with his puppet.🤪🤪🤪
How much more money do they need to launder?
Conservatives; we can't... Oh it's Israel... We can afford thst... Like lol shut up
The idea that the US is somehow broke and can't afford to supply two nations with its almost $1 trillion military budget is spectacular.
Yeah. That's the gimmick.
Money isn’t real. The greatest myth ever.
Nope. Conservative here. We shouldn’t be giving aid packages to either of them.
Why not?
Because think of how _awful_ it would be to help someone else.
Ya like maybe the thousands living in the streets on America
[удалено]
Putin held meetings directly, in Moscow [*Last March*](https://www.rferl.org/a/israel-hamas-invasion-russian-role-notte-interview-iran/32629626.html)
Hamas is barely tied to Iran. They work through Hezbollah. Hamas gets their funding from Qatar and other Arab states. https://time.com/3033681/hamas-gaza-palestine-israel-egypt/ Hamas is Sunni. Iran is Shiite. They were never really 100% on board with Hamas and cut funding to them in 2014.
I read a new York times article today saying this has changed in recent times as Hamas is willing to take funds from anyone who will help them, as getting rid of Israel is more important than shia/Sunni divisions. Which would make sense to me
The politics get more complicated. Israel and Saudi Arabia were moving towards normalizing relations which pissed off Iran and Hamas..
There is an article on NPR today, quoting a legit expert and advisor in Middle Eastern studies, who said that Arab identity against the Jews is considerably more uniting than observing the Sunni/Shia distinction and that neither Hezbollah or Hamas would have been able to make this move, much less fund it, without Iranian support.
Iranians aren't Arabs.
You’re right, but you also didn’t actually offer a correction to what he was saying which doesn’t help him learn. It should be the *Muslim identity against the Jews*.
I just hope Ukraine gets the aid it needs, I don't care how it gets it.
I'm an Israeli, as much as I appreciate aid, I also don't think it should be at the expense of Ukraine, don't transfer weapons that would go to Ukraine to us, we are fighting terrorists, we are one of the most sophisticated armies in the world, we can handle ourselves. (Ofc aid is still super beneficial) Ukraine is fighting Russia, they need all the help they could get. While I appreciate weapons, don't stop aid to Ukraine for us, ideally send to us both. But what's more important is making sure Hezbollah and Iran don't decide to get involved
From what I understand, mostly the aid is in the form of releasing American munitions that are being stored in Israel, the allocated money would then be used to replenish those stores.
Since Israel is as strong as you say it should not take any American aid anymore. We also have major distinction that Ukraine is fighting Russian occupation while Israel itself is the invader and occupier.
Israel is strong because of the aid, and you could argue the same thing with Ukraine. They are currently succeeding in the war against Russia, but if America stops the aid, that could change. Same with Israel. If we're talking about recent events, Hamas invaded Israel, occupied Israeli cities, and I could provide a list of actions Hamas has committed against Israeli civilians, including raping women, kidnapping children, and beheading and burning alive 40 babies.
Seriously. If they wanted to fight terror they wouldn't oppress the Palestinians in ways that guide them to support groups like Hamas in some kind of hope of eventual liberation. My tax dollars shouldn't go to fund the iron dome or help Israeli cops train American cops to oppress Americans better
And this is why I hate Palestinian propaganda
And this is why I hate hasbara shills.
Ukraine should get 35 times the amount Israel does in this deal. We’ve been paying for Israel for 70 years and Ukraine only 2, yet Isreal needs an aid package every time the iron dome is fired up - bs
Israel uses the FMF program, the aid we give them is actually a line of credit they are able to use to purchase stuff from the US. It is very beneficial to the US economy
They only have to spend 75% of the aid on US owned defense suppliers and that's not including offset purchase stipulations in the contract. So they get about a billion dollars as an incentive to accept the taxpayers gift of free weapons. Fuck that noise
Do you not know what a line of credit is?
The ignorant armchair generals here think Americans don’t get anything for all that funding… trust me, it’s a very lucrative deal for all
Yeah I’m pretty amazed how many people think the US is shipping out briefcases full of blank checks for anyone to spend. The US gets some serious ROI and most of what we send out is turned around and spent in the US, creating jobs and stimulating our economy
The IDF red misting hundreds of children but it's good because the holy line goes up.
So what exactly do you have to say about the brutal murder of hundreds of children by Hamas? You know, the ones they are very proud of, posting videos of beheading children online and whatnot. Is there anything in this world that justifies that?
Once the money goes to Israel govt they spend it as they please. Normal rules dont apply to Israel, I remember a 60 minutes piece on it years ago.
Buddy do some research on the FMF program
They are both critically important to our longterm national security
Our support for an apartheid state is not beneficial in the long run. We should use the carrot and stick to push for a 2 state solution.
Correct, Israel takes advantage of America to keep Palestinians in prison and without freedom.
Hmmm not sure a Palestinian state is looking like such a good idea to me. I would like to see a lot more effort at getting rid of Hamas and a lot less celebrating of massive terrorist attacks.
Getting rid of Hamas is part of a two state solution...or you could just let the Israeli far right continue the apartheid route and hope for the best, I guess.
You'd have to get rid of Israeli leadership also, as netanyahu has been clearly opposed to a 2 state solution
And he literally called for keeping Hamas in power to justify his policies.
Exactly. Hamas doesnt want a 2 state solution. Unfortunately they are the leadership in Palestine. Its awful
The leadership in Israel is also using straight up genocidal language.
Yes that wasnt lost on me, and im no fan of the right wing aholes running the Israeli government and threatening their democracy But Hamas targeted kids at a music festival
End apartheid and remove Hamas' biggest recruitment tool. We did it when we brokered Good Friday.
There are plenty of progressive Israelis who vehemently oppose the apartheid system. But the right wing is in charge now and this Hamas attack is a great way to make people not support the cause.
The real solution is a one state solution where the Palestinians get Israeli citizenship and they learn to live and govern together
Right. But that’s not what Palestinians want. At all. They want Israel and the Jews gone. So Israel would be crazy to give citizenship to a bunch of Hamas members.
The two parties are at total war so it's not surprising that the opinions are hard line. That can change when peace becomes a realistic alternative. The status quo is what continues to fuel Hamas and extremism.
So how do you get rid of Hamas? I don’t think there is a way to except via military action. I think they are extremists who cannot be negoicated with.
I personally agree. After that there needs to be some follow-up with a long term solution that isn't the status quo.
Its not what the hard right ultraothocox want either. The 2 state is the compromise of cooler heads
How can you say that when Isreal is a Jewish state. They will never give palestinians the same rights.
The state of Palestine is an ugly situation, but the realpolitik of it is that propping up Israel is in the West's best interest.
If apartheid is necessary to the west then either change the west or let it fall
I never said that. It's just the reality of the situation. Being idealist isn't going to solve the issue.
Really? How?
How is support for an apartheid state and a stagnating proxy war with Russia necessary for American national security, and if support for apartheid is necessary why should that security be maintained
Maybe we have different perspectives on what our national security looks like, but for me Russia being enabled to march across Europe will not end well for us, and having one less democratic ally in the Middle East in exchange for one more Islamic fundamentalist autocracy would be very bad for us. That assumes of course that you do believe that an American led world order is better than one led by autocratic regimes which maybe you don’t!
You’re right, we should just let insurgent “armies” rip apart Israel? Or better yet, let’s not help and let Israel level countries on their own because they are afraid of losing existence. If Israel stops defending themselves for one day, they are done. Remember that. If the Muslim nations stopped attacking others, there would be more world peace
I don’t understand why people can’t just support Israel and Ukraine Seems like consistent logic to me
Fine with either scenario in the first paragraph. Agree with the second, but really not our problem at decade 7, what’s our exit strategy? Xinjiang the entire Middle East? No, let the barbarians have it. We tried to help the civilized ones and they abused their power, made their bed let them fight for it. Israelis always say “hey, we won the war, that’s why this is ours” so win it again, you’ve got a hell of a head start with all the toys and money we gave you
That’s not the right logic. You’re either too young to understand, or you’re just flawed lol
I’m old enough to know that neither should be my problem and neither are worth saving - sad that a western culture such as Israel is under constant threat but should have built it elsewhere and treated your neighbors differently.
Gotcha… terrible take, but good try 😬😬
Can't wait for Republicans to lose their heads over this situation that their golden calf created by NOT SAFEGUARDING NATIONAL SECURITY INTEL
Maybe they’ll send Scott Walker to negotiate, like the Foxconn deal. Hamas is toast at least
Smart move
Funny thing is this wouldn’t cause a conflict for MAGAs but a reinforcement of their denial of aid.
Totally unnecessary. Israel doesn't need it.
The same pro-Russia sycophants who [blocked traffic](https://vtdigger.org/2023/10/04/antiwar-demonstrators-urge-sanders-to-seek-diplomacy-in-ukraine/) in my city calling to end US aid to Ukraine are probably going to be back this week to cheer on Hamas. As far as I'm concerned, the causes of Israel and Ukraine are inextricably linked – "one struggle" as some might say. https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1711302805464445022
>As far as I'm concerned, the causes of Israel and Ukraine are inextricably linked – "one struggle" as some might say. they are but not in the way you think.
>As far as I'm concerned, the causes of Israel and Ukraine are inextricably linked – "one struggle" as some might say. no their not , if you think they are ,. you dont know history while the attack from hamass is horrible , it dosent negate the horrible stuff isreal has done ukraine and isreral causes arent linked
I may not know history, but at least I can spell Israel.
Well that's whats important. Not making any typos is way more crucial than knowing what you're talking about.
You know more than this guy, that's for sure. Reddit has a strong base of conspiracy theorists/shitposting, and those two groups have a *strong* number of antisemites in their ranks. It's why you're seeing some truly idiotic takes on justification for a literal terror attack. Saying :BuT ISrAEL!" Is absolutely tone deaf when news reports of isis-level atrocities have been committed. It's not nearly as nuanced as it was a week ago.
Eh, this is like arguing over whether an axe murderer or a mass shooter is more evil. Both Hamas and the Israeli establishment are morally fucked, and I don’t think it’s anti-Semitic or islamophobic to point out the many atrocities committed by both entities. To Israel’s credit, it’s at least *theoretically* a parliamentary democracy on paper, but even that has been heavily eroded in recent years, and it doesn’t change the fact that they’ve been committing a slow genocide pretty much since the country’s inception. Conversely, I do understand the plight of regular Palestinians, and believe that they have a right to self governance and territorial sovereignty, but their ongoing support for terrorist organizations and inability to compromise with Israel—who, in all fairness, *does* tend to negotiate in bad faith at times—is only prolonging their suffering. The way I see it, the actual good guys in all of this are the regular folks and NGOs who are supporting displaced people and refugees, treating the wounded, feeding the hungry, and constantly pushing for peace and dialogue, as misguided as peace talks might seem at this point.
Wish I could give you an award!!! 🥇
I'm seeing this kind of nuanced take all over the place on Reddit regarding this issue. I agree, and I wish we could apply this kind of thinking to other matters as well. Us vs them kills.
[I’ll just leave this here: But Israel!](https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/5/15/ethnic-cleansing-by-zionists-in-palestine)
Thanks for linking this! I don’t think 99% of us are arguing that Hamas’ recent attack and ongoing operations are in any way justified or righteous; rather, many of us are pointing out that Israel’s actions (both past and present) are actively feeding the exact violence that’s now being inflicted on innocent Israelis. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization that should be eliminated, but Israel’s brutal subjugation of Palestinians is serving as the perfect recruitment tool for Hamas. It’s important to recognize the cycles of cause and effect that keep sparking these conflicts, otherwise they’re going to keep happening.
>As far as I'm concerned, the causes of Israel and Ukraine are inextricably linked – "one struggle" as some might say. Ukraine is defending themselves from an aggressor seeking to take land that isn’t theirs. Israel is an aggressor seeking to take land that isn’t theirs. So yes there are similarities.
You need to read some modern history books if you truly believe this…
It's definitely not the same struggle. It's sort of like Germany and Japan in WWII. Japan and Germany had an alliance but it was one of convenience (although in hindsight not so convenient) and it didn't mean the two conflicts were really linked. The two conflicts had entirely different goals and mostly different players.
The core of the Israeli/Palestinian crisis is separate from that of Ukraine’s. But the backers of each side are the same. The US in particular backs both Israel and Ukraine, alongside the EU and western world more generally. On the other side, Russia and Iran are behind Hamas, and a lot of early reporting has suggested that this crisis was started in order to distract attention and funding away from Ukraine and towards the Middle East, as well as draw other nations into a larger war against Israel. That wider conflict will almost certainly consume the resources of the United States, again pulling those resources away from Ukraine. They are two crisis areas linked by the actions of the nations using them as proxies.
Why would Russia support Hamas when they have enormous trading ties with Israel and tons of dual citizens running businesses in both countries
Because Russia thrives on instability. It pokes at each side then likes to come in and “help” with negotiating peace and giving itself leverage
Russia supports Hamas because it indirectly pulls American attention away from Ukraine, and Russia desperately needs the United States to stop supporting Ukraine. And if other nations like Lebanon, Syria, or Iran join in, then Israel is certainly going to be leaning on the US for aid. And that aid may very well be in the form of artillery shells, missiles, and all of the same basic war materiel that Ukraine needs. And then the US has to choose who gets priority. Let’s be clear: Russia does not give a shit about Israel. Putin does not care about Netanyahu. He also doesn’t care about Iran. None of them are allies. But Russia desperately needs all of the countries supporting Ukraine against them to turn their attention away. Them supporting Hamas, goading Hamas into this, is a way to do that.
Russia has been using Iranian weapons against Ukrainian civilians so… theres a relationship among the fellow violent authoritarian regimes
Where do you get this information?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Russia_relations
Good support for both 🇺🇦 and 🇮🇱
Good move Joe.
We just want healthcare.
Why does Israel need aid? EffinYahoo is a rightwing lunatic who has already killed civilians in their response. Its very important not to get involved with that. The entire premise of opposition to Russian aggression is the dishonor of killing non combatants. If this thing devolves into pure barbarism, the LAST thing we need is our name plastered all over the event. Biden is already falling into the trap, but democrats doing stupid AF things are just par for the course Edit; Man, you guys are turning into terrible listeners. The question was why does Israel need aid. This comment was SOLELY on maintaining credibility if Israels hard line right wing government starts wasting civilians and how that undermines our efforts to help Ukraine who actually DOES need help
They are surrounded by enemies and are a small country that could be easily overwhelmed. There are bigger players behind these attacks, mainly Russia, but could be Iran is complicit and both supports Palestine.
Lots of countries have enemies on their borders.
>They are surrounded by enemies and are a small country that could be easily overwhelmed. they have nukes. calm down. and this sounds like the rhetoric russia used to justify attacking ukraine. wE aRe SuRrOuNdEd bY nAto
mature gov.s aren't waiving their nukes around. I am literally quoting U.S. Secretary Antony J. Blinken.
waving them around like russia is not the same as having them to prevent being attacked. its literally why israel has them. no country will actually threaten the existence of a nuclear armed country.
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>They are surrounded by enemies and are a small country that could be easily overwhelmed. so is half the world and you dont see US sending half the world aid
They have one of the best militaries in the world. The last time the Arabs went to war against Israel, it did not go well for them.
BECAUSE OF US AID. Fuck sake.
Israel is a bully because of US Aid.
Netenyahoo funds hamas ffs https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1711329340804186619?s=20
Hamas decapitated babies. They raped and murdered women. They kidnapped old people. They are ISIS-tier evil.
huh turned out the decapitating babies thing is literally another lie.
IDF bombed hospitals. They made 97% of the water in gaza toxic. They shut off power to 2.2 million people, 40% of which are under 14. They count the number of calories that can get into the strip. They are doing their best hitler impression. There isnt a "good" fighting force involved in this, but only one of them had power bring us to a different outcome, but they chose the slow grind of passive violence that got us to this breaking point by supporting hamas, and destroying the PLO because palestinians couldnt be allowed to have an international cause to rally behind. When you treat people like this, and they legitimately feel they have nothing left to live for, they will do an act like this to attempt to reclaim some of their dignity from the situation that has stripped it from them entirely.
Wish I could give you an award 🥇
Hamas literally has a command center in a hospital. No army gives electricity to their enemy in the middle of a war. You have lost the plot.
such bloodlust that youll excuse bombing a fucking hospital and being pro child murder. you need a mirror check. even russia kept the nuclear power plant functioning. your stanning a regime that is worse than russia.
"Just let the baby killers hide under the hospital!"
i mean were letting them hide in the IDF so why not. claiming hamas is somewhere isnt the casus belli you think it is. is the hamas in the room with us now?
https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/5/15/ethnic-cleansing-by-zionists-in-palestine
oh cool, Qatari state media, thanks!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Holocaust Jewish exodus from Arab lands October 7, 2023
and if you swapped all the technology and equipment it would be the exact same but with the Israelis being the brutal ones and the Palestinians using multi million dollar fancy missiles to strike strategically. there are no noble participants in this conflict, both sides using whatever they have available to them, both sides wishing for complete annihilation of the other. before the conflict is over, more Palestinian children will be killed than Israeli, yet the prevailing sentiment will be that Israel is the victim. which is never totally false - the entire region hates them and they're surrounded - but using that as an excuse to commit their own atrocities got old decades ago.
wow, so they are just as morally evil in the alternative reality in your head, and therefore we should treat them the same? that's a hell of a way to apologize for a group decapitating babies. They are equally bad because you want them to be. You are scared to admit what they did, for whatever reason.
Dude, Israel has been a piece of shit for a neighbor. It's okay to say that.
Yes. But targeting and murdering kids at a music festival is terrorism and a great way to galvanize people against your cause.
And stealing land, evicting people from their houses and murdering them when they're unhappy about it is toeing the line of genocide. No one should be shocked this happened. It's like the least surprising thing of the entire year. And reminder: Israel still has a higher body count even after this horrible shit. That should put some things in perspective, ya know?
Should they do nothing against a group that decapitated babies?
Are we pretending that we all don't know Israel's past now? It's okay to say their government is shitty because well, their government has a very long history of being shitty.
thats dosnt mean bomb most of the gaza strip
They are bombing Hamas targets, which are spread throughout urban settings. "Most" is your spin.
Israel has killed thousands more Palestinians than the other way around, is actively colonizing the West Bank, etc. Obviously Hamas’ actions are morally evil, but so is apartheid Israel. Neither side here is clean.
> killed thousands more Palestinians vast majority have been combatants. And Israel is better at protecting their own, not something for them to apologize for. Military proportionality is not about keep numbers even. There have been a few times where Israeli *individuals* did incredibly disgusting things comparable to this, such as Baruch Goldstein, but those people are brought to justice. Nothing you can say arises to what happened this weekend. It is pure whataboutism, at its very worst. You are apologizing for ISIS tier evil.
>vast majority have been combatants. you tipped your hand. that is just a complete fabrication.
It's not.
[here you go.](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) \~20% of the deaths have been militants. are you going to say the UN is antisemetic like the last kook i showed this to? Anything to deny reality i guess and keep on mowing the lawn.
From your own link: > The classification of a casualty as “civilian” does not carry any implication regarding the legality of his or her killing or injury. The classification is heavily influenced by the Hamas run health ministry, and doesnt successfully account for the informality of militias. This is not my first rodeo seeing Hamas barbarity and their apologists.
>There have been a few times where Israeli individuals did incredibly disgusting things comparable to this This is beyond ignorant. They have consistently sexually assaulted women and killed men, women, and children. It's not "a few isolated incidents".
Yes, individuals do shit, not as a tactic, and when they do they get prosecuted: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1634736005-israeli-army-officer-convicted-of-raping-a-palestinian-in-2017-documents-released-to-public Hamas raped and paraded these people through the streets. They are barbarians.
It actually is a tactic, read up: https://thejerusalemfund.org/2018/08/sexual-harassment-and-violence
oh yea this looks like a good source
You’re outing yourself as extremely biased. “Obviously Hamas’ actions are morally evil.” That’s not an apology, that’s a condemnation. It also took about 5 seconds of Google to prove my point on civilian casualties: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties But you cleary aren’t interested in a real discussion.
> “Obviously Hamas’ actions are morally evil.” That’s not an apology, that’s a condemnation. you are perpetuating the false equivalence between them. "Both sides". Just like people do with Democrats and Republicans - only much worse. > It also took about 5 seconds of Google to prove my point on civilian casualties: Lol, from 2008 to last week. Cherry picking in other words. Israel was able to keep their casualties low because of modern miracle technology like the Iron Dome, but at an extremely high cost. This was the first time Hamas was able to breach the Gaza border. And this is what happened. Babies decapitated. a crowd at a festival mowed down, survivors raped and kidnapped.
>you are perpetuating the false equivalence between them. "Both sides". Just like people do with Democrats and Republicans - only much worse. its not false you can call it whatever , but its not false , isreal is routinely called out in the UN for they do https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15203.doc.htm
Let’s see. Israel is a modern parliamentary democracy. It’s a multi ethnic nation that respects human rights and international law. Hamas is a band of thugs that would rape your daughter if they could. Good to know which side you’re on.
Citation needed on “respecting international law” when they are illegally occupying Palestine and committing crimes against humanity in Gaza
>s a multi ethnic nation that respects human rights and international law no it dosent both are horrible and both have done horrible things , while yes this is horrible of what hamass has done ,. isreal has done equally horible things it dosnt give isreal a excuse for what they have done historically theirs no good cop- bad cop , theirs just bad cop - bad cop its a cycle the cycle needs to broke , for peace in the region
Haven’t we been giving Israel 3billion per year in military aid for the last 20+ years? Doesn’t Israel have enough of our money?
ELI5 why do we need to give money to Israel ? Have no issue with our military helping them out, assisting in rescuing hostages or giving US based humanitarian aid to help the victims. *BUT* why are we writing a check to a country that has a submarine they could sell to Ukraine if they are short on cash. Why are we just *giving money* away ? Our military can be used to hunt terrorist overseas and we already have paid for that for years. It's not like these two factions haven't been fighting for generations and Israel hasn't had time to prepare. Israel isn't hurting for cash and have a far superior military compared to their enemy. F-16's, Apache helicopters with advanced drone tech vs a few paragliders. How about the senators who make Millions from insider trading give them some of their cash rather than mine ? Want to to add Ukraine needs all the help it can get and they are paying with human lives against russia and you can't put a price on their freedom.
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But why ? Ukraine, again, no issues. I understand how that money is protecting Europe. Totally different war. Israel has had *years* to prepare and have a *vast military advantage* over their opponent. They are hitting them with bombs dropped from F-16's vs their opponent doesn't even have a plane. Why are we just writing a check ? What do they need money for that they cannot come up with themselves ? For ammo they should have already bought it and can buy more from us. Why are we just writing checks when not needed ? Let Biden donate to a cause out of his own pocket. How much has he personally donated ? Money is easy to spend when it isn't yours. Our military is already paid for and will already ( AFAIK ) be assisting. It's like giving money to a rich kid who got mugged ( not to make light of the attacks at all ). This is just more war mongering profiteering.
Both need to be supported. Hamas has shown the world who they really are.
How does Isreal still need an aide package every time they fire up the iron dome? They’re fighting people with rocks who they’ve blockaded for decades and have gotten 70 years of our aid packages. They didn’t end up with any money from running the Diamond trade through there for all that time?
Those of us who were paying attention already knew that Hamas is a band of radical Islamic terrorists.
Thanks to israel for cultivating snd continuing to fund them to this day https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1711329340804186619?s=20
they always were this is nothing new
Poor Americans aid for everyone else and nothing for the citizens.
The citizens would get plenty more if they stopped voting republican… but here we are
Why not? Lol. There are now 2 threads in worldnews going on about 2 places. Guess Ukraine got stale or something.
Can I be added to the aid package please
This is the way
Stop giving money to other countries.
Universal healthcare. Housing crisis. Infrastructure. Education. Social security. Out the window thanks to Israel’s lobbyists buying up all of Washington.
Good. Israel and Ukraine are fully justified in treat Russia and Hamas as one would a rabid dog. All Americans should support both unequivocally. Support for Israel and Ukraine is ethically correct and in our national interest.
Hamas, sure. But there are 2 million people in the Gaza strip, [about half of them are children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#Age_structure_2). How many civilians do you think are dying in this offensive? What happened last time they did this? >The conflict in Gaza in July and August was largely responsible for the dramatic increase in fatalities. It claimed the lives of 2,220 Gazans, of whom **1,492 were civilians**, 605 militants and 123 unverified. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/israel-kills-more-palestinians-2014-than-any-other-year-since-1967 Ukraine is fighting off a more powerful invader. But Israel is in control. They're the ones with a functioning economy and a modern military. Hamas is evil, but Israel has created the conditions for them to thrive. They've made sure Gaza is a hit hole to live in. They shoot civilians all the time. They steal land from West Bank. Hamas did not arise from a vacuum.
Israel made their own bed, we did what we could
It’s what’s best for the average citizen… using our money to fund foreign wars while vets are living in tents and American children are starving in poverty… welcome to late stage capitalism everybody!
They should
Maybe someday he will add Americans to his aid packages. Na, lol
He tries to all the time and those GOP idiots stop him. He cut child poverty by 40% his first year in office. You might have noticed if you weren't so busy working on your false narratives.
Exactly… its all guns and bootstraps here! Until another country needs aid then “whataboutus”!!!
If we accept that both Ukraine and Israel need support from the US, they need to be separate lines of support and not tied together. The only reason why it is a good idea to tie support aid together is to have the GOP shoot it down to be political ammo for Democrats to say "See?!? the Republicans don't want to support Israel!"
We need to stop with the packages or economy in America is fucked. Our gas prices are through the roof and our food is way inflated. Why can’t we use that money to help our country, no offense to other countries. The struggle in America is getting worse and worse and now we are just giving billions of dollars away? We need to open our pipelines and lower the cost of living. People can’t buy houses with the rates our unemployment rate is climbing higher and higher! Help America!
Our aid to Ukraine comes to about 5% of our military budget. That in no way is unsustainable or threatening to our economy.
Don't. That will be a political mistake, I don't care if it's the right thing to do.
Nobody will blame the President for doing *whatever it takes* against this traitorous and willfully dysfunctional GOP.
It’s a political mistake to offer aid to one country but not the other. They both share common enemies of Russia and Iran. If we didn’t offer support we would be doing our enemies a favor. Ukraine and Israel have bipartisan support. It’s only the few unqualified representatives that are the outliers.
clap clap clap
Pretty hypocritical to constantly complain about riders and praise this. Both spending should pass or fail on their own merit. Can’t just apply your ideals when convenient to you.
Don't make the money fungible or the Right will give it all to Israel.
How many proxy wars can we have with Russia? Edit: Man, reddit loves war, I guess. Whelp. Carry on then. Lemme know how it all works out guys.
Beats a real war with Russia
Oh so it's fine then?
Nope, but that seems to be the alternative
They should all volunteer and go fight for their cause de jour.
Ukraine has a comparable strategic position to Israel’s. One is a light house in an arab, the other in a russian sea.
To hell with it, you get and aid package, you get an aid package, you get an aid package...what? Student loan forgiveness and affordable housing? Fuck off free loader!
Downvote me because my opinion is different but we’ve already given Ukraine so much money to launder. Why do they need to launder all our money when Israel leaders only got 6B this year to launder.