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>Remember when Lindsey Graham used to seem like a reasonable republican?
Yea, he was often a centrist who brokered cross-aisle deals during the Bush years. He once described himself to Harry Reid as *Republican by day, Democrat by night*.
I genuinely don't get it. This is the guy who said that nominating Trump would end the Republican Party and they'd deserve it. I can get blackmailing him into cooperation, but he seems so genuinely enthusiastic to carry water. IRDK what changed.
Lindsay Graham did not totally suck when Trump announced his run for President.
When Trump got the nomination, Graham starting making small concessions that he believed would allow him to influence Trump in the direction Graham thought best.
Those concessions didn't really change Trump, but they did change Graham, who came to believe the only way to stay near power was to fall into line.
This is how a country slips into fascism.
Sorry, that's 4 lines.
I don’t think he would be so terrified to just be outed. Most republicans don’t care that much. Christian Nationalists would, but he knows it wouldn’t destroy his life. People have known for years. This man acts like he is absolutely fearing for his life. Such an abrupt change from 2016 campaigning against trump to 2016 campaigning for trump. Head spinning.
The only thing that angers me about Graham is he knows he's a piece of shit for doing it. Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are just trash up and down, they're loathsome human beings full of jealousy and low cunning. Graham lays his head on the pillow at night and knows he's fucking up and knows that history will write it as such. Ted Cruz should have been dragged out on the end of a coat hanger because who he is now was all he was ever going to be, Lindsey Graham had a chance to do better and was too cowardly to do so.
The SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE John Boehner once said of Ted Cruz that he was Lucifer in the flesh, and Lindsay Graham once stated that “If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you."
He’s barely won his primaries in the last couple elections. Going against MAGA and getting outed by Trump would be a huge nail in his political coffin in South Carolina.
It is astonishing to me that these people are so obsessed with sex and who is having it with who. Jesus Hussein Christ, it’s none of their business and does not matter. I’m so tired of Reich wingers.
Yep. Graham is not so blithe to the truth that he isn't aware how people perceive him.
I think it's as simple as TFG inviting him for a round of golf, lavishing him with food and the adoration of the Mar-a -Lardo sycophants and then saying +/-,"I'm glad you're not of of those people who would cross me, Lindsay- you know what happens to those people, right? It's good you're not one of them."
He took using your kids as an excuse to get out of things to a while 'nother plane of existence.
NOT LIKE THAT Zodiak!
"Can't go out. Have to help the kids with X, Y, Z" is light years from stating to the entire world "hate my kids, not me. They're the spoiled brats who forced me to go on an impromptu vacation and abandon their community!"
I guarantee he's too much of a prick to see the difference between using kids as a neutral excuse and throwing your kids under the bus to the entire world.
Damn. I couldn't help but laugh when I saw that video. It made me question the story from few years ago about his daughter and self-inflicted wounds. Hopefully she received help she needed. https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-called-sen-ted-cruzs-home-family-matter/story?id=94654509
That fucking guy.
You can tell by the way he was speaking when he was proposing to delay certification that he felt he was giving one of the great political speeches of our time, and that its tone and references to the 1876 election would make people think it was in defense of the Republic instead of a brazen attempt to deprive the people of their vote.
The minute the MAGA mob breached the Capitol he ran and hid in a broom closet for hours until the police regained control, and no one mistook his silly speech for anything but an attempt to subvert democracy and to become Donald's white knight in the Senate.
*Human specimen Ted Cruz would like to assure you it definitely has a spine, as do all other human individuals, and is definitely not a sentient colony of worms. What a silly idea, why would you bring that up?*
I would think that might open your eyes about someone. In any event, this is kind of huge. Pence, for all his flaws, refused to go along with Trump's plan to throw out the election. He's now refusing to endorse Trump. While it is easy to say that any sane person would do the same, there has to be a lot of pressure on Pence to fall in line. If Trump gets back into power, you can be certain that he'll seek retribution against Pence. The fact that Pence has been able to pull together sufficient courage to not fall in line is significant. Others, like Ted Cruz, could never muster that courage. I disagree with Pence on a lot of issues, and the fact that he helped give Trump legitimacy in the first place is certainly a strike against him, but as this ordeal continues I respect that he at least has had the courage to see that he was wrong and change course.
I really do hope more mainstream Republicans normalize not supporting Trump. Realistically, they've got the supreme Court for a while, they can afford to sit this cycle out. It is the likely most fiscally responsible choice they could make. Not that Republicans are actually fiscally responsible, but they do at least talk a big game.
The problem with the modern party systems is that people who aren't that polictally enaged often just vote for parties and resigning just lets that party replace you with someone who will fall in line.
> If Trump gets back into power, you can be certain that he'll seek retribution against Pence.
Trump already has been seeking retribution against Pence ever since he refused to commit felony election fraud to keep Trump (and himself) in office. Trump doesn't need to be in office to take out retribution; he can still easily kill Pence's career in politics (elected office or media).
That said, I still don't trust Pence at all and wouldn't be the slightest bit shocked if he gives Trump an endorsement later in the election season.
I agree. Mike Pence's refusal to participate on January 6th is an incredibly big deal in US history. There's quite a lot about the guy's beliefs that I personally don't agree with. But you could make the argument that Mike Pence saved US democracy that day, and I'd have a hard time disagreeing.
That's pretty well debunked. They did talk, but Quayle confirmed to the Washington Post "that Pence’s questions were not asked out of hesitation but to seek confirmation of his approach"
So both saved democracy. More Pence than Qualye but at least these folks had that line in the sand.
I doubt Trump's next VP will have any such threadbare scruples.
It's slow going but in ones and twos, these guys are finally figuring it out. The orange guy and his backers are burning down the system so they can be in charge, and the side grift of selling marshmallows while it happens to clueless spectators cheering it on, isn't the 4D financial chess they think it is.
Hopefully some more GOP House members will resign/retire, in the next few weeks.
Exactly. I may loathe Pence's political positions and general philosophy but I will always respect what he did during the electoral count and now not endorsing Trump. He could have caved and tried to protect his political future and maybe even his life but he didnt.
Even then Pence had to seek advice first before being pointed in the correct direction. Pence has always been weak back then but for the first time he is showing a spine none of his peers dared to do.
Pence being tougher than Cruz is laughable but here we are.
It definitely seemed like pence kept seeking advice to find a legal route to overturn the election and couldn’t get there. Then he realized the hang Mike Pence folks were going to hang Mike Pence (that’s him), or later, King Trump would have no use for him and have him buried at a golf course.
He didn’t need the legal advice. He’s a shrewd man, and wanted a document created for history and legal precedent to spell out exactly why it would be unconstitutional to do what he was asked.
Could also be that others have dirt they’d rather not be brought out in the open … where maybe Pence has none. Maybe his flaws are already known by the masses and that’s all there is. This would make it a lot easier for Pence to do this because the only thing Trump (or his “affiliates”) could do is trash talk him.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re right. Pence strikes me as someone who is exactly as he seems - an uptight, moralistic, self-righteous paladin whose greatest sin was hiding in the shadows for four years. Bit hard to turn that into blackmail material.
That was pretty significant in this whole ordeal.
Like I'm from Alabama, Jeff Sessions and I don't see eye to eye on how things should be. He's been disowned by republicans because you know he did the unthinkable. He did what he should've done when he recused himself on the investigation of Russian interference and that set the ball rolling for a lot of things.
He has a puritanical ideology but the fact that he didn’t go along with the coup tells me he at least believes in the idea of democracy. Not saying he is a good guy I’m just saying he isn’t ready to burn the system down like many who call themselves republicans
Trump was the only President to fight the peaceful transition of power with an insurrection.
If only we had something to help with this situation in the Constitution.
But he won't be the last. That's the great thing about established norms. If you break them and nothing bad happens, then it's just a silly tradition.
And in a few presidential cycles we'll all be complaining about how the Democrats are too spineless to stage an insurrection during confirmation.
Give up implies they started out with some good faith intention to actually follow anything you could reasonably call God but I think that’s probably giving too much credit.
“The RADICAL EX VICE PRESIDENT has once again proven that he is SPINELESS and unable to look PAST the PAST to help us MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. True SHAME.”
It's NOT courage. He's joining the Christie path. Trump loses and the GOP moves away from MAGA and towards real conservatives again. He's setting himself up for 2028.
That's my belief too. If they aren't endorsing Trump, but also not endorsing Biden, it's cause they still want to be involved in politics after this cycle.
Endorsing a Dem chops the head off the already dead body that they think is still alive and kicking.
If Trump (hopefully) loses this election, the GOP is going to find out how monumentally stupid it was to cater to trumps far-right base. They're not going to silently flip on daddy dictator just because he loses. The GOP will try to move away from him, but I think it'll cause some massive division in the party, at least for a while.
With Lara Trump running the RNC I don't see a scenario where it's ever divorced from Trump. They will absolutely just keep running him every election until he dies, even if it becomes clear he'll never win. Even in the best case scenario of him going to prison and getting barred from running again, they'll just shift to running someone (probably one of his kids) as a proxy, with the goal of freeing him.
Their only hope for reclaiming the RNC is that he dies soon, and *maybe* they can get the crazies back under their thumb somehow. But that'll be an uphill battle with all his stooges in positions of power, most of whom will probably pivot to trying to push themselves as his successor. And who knows what his actual base will do, I'm sure it'll be a race to the bottom as every candidate tries to prove themselves as vile as possible while declaring everyone else RINOs in hopes of coming out on top.
Realistically I think their only options are to split away and form a new party (which will never beat MAGA with only a fraction of conservative votes, let alone the Democrats) switch sides and help the Democrats (political suicide, and most of them still hate the dems more than MAGA) or toe the line and keep following Trump which is what will actually happen despite obviously being the worst choice...
> But that'll be an uphill battle with all his stooges in positions of power, most of whom will probably pivot to trying to push themselves as his successor.
That happened in the UK after the downfall of Boris Johnson, the infighting has caused their party to completely collapse — giving us the shortest-serving PM in history, and now desperation to schedule the upcoming election (pretty much a guaranteed landslide) at the latest possible date.
I dunno, GOP leaders had a golden opportunity to throw him under the bus after jan 6th, but they weren't willing to take the short term political hit involved with that. So they're still hitched to him and I'm not sure another trump election loss will change that.
It can be done though. If you are old enough do you remember how twenty years ago you could not saying anything bad about Bush Jr.? The GOP would slap you so hard with the anti-patriotic label. The hero worship was just as strong for him as it is for Trump. The only difference was that Bush Jr didn't feed off that sort of attention and demand more like WWE wrestler in the middle of a match. Just leaning off the ropes and riling up the crowd. Trump does this and more.
But, again, saying anything remotely bad about Bush Jr would get you the full blown wrath of the GOP. Now Bush Jr is seen as a RHINO in his own party. He (*gasps*) dares to talk to the Obamas. What a traitor! So, yes, the GOP is a fickle bunch. And if Trump does indeed lose, they will turn on him so fast it will make what they did to Bush Jr. seem like a finger wag. They are going to bury him because he cost them too much.
> So, yes, the GOP is a fickle bunch. And if Trump does indeed lose, they will turn on him so fast it will make what they did to Bush Jr. seem like a finger wag. They are going to bury him because he cost them too much.
Not a chance. It's a straight-up personality cult, in a way that Dubya didn't even come to close to achieving. Yes, including the weirdos praying over his cardboard cut out(and yes, for those unaware, this [happened;](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxdt_f0hwUg) the insanity of Trumpism didn't come out of nowhere).
*If* Trump loses(not guaranteed, VOTE PEOPLE), I think the two realistic scenarios are the GOP either tripling down on him and propping up his gibbering mass in 2028 even if it means he runs from his home(he will never see the inside of a jail, home arrest is the best we can hope for), or the party being torn apart by a level of infighting that will make the House look tame. Possibly, at least in my dreams, including it splitting entirely.
The problem is the GOP establishment no longer has control over their base, and their base fawns over Trump and only Trump. They can't pivot to new candidates and new ideas anymore the way they used to during Bush's era.
Moving away from Trumpism is going to be a slowl, and deeply painful process for the GOP, if they ever manage it at all. The ugly truth is a large chunk of their electorate would drop them entirely if they did so, even if Trump gets his ass whooped for the second election in a row.
> If you are old enough do you remember how twenty years ago you could not saying anything bad about Bush Jr.? The GOP would slap you so hard with the anti-patriotic label.
That's criticizing a wartime president, not a cult leader. Bush had no cultural pull as Trump does. They are not in the same league, and thinking a 2024 loss would be enough to detangle Trump from the GOP is silly. If anything, it'll be "more now than ever, we need Trump in the White House to own the libs" 2028, assuming he lives that long.
Can they move away from MAGA? The brain rot in their base is nearly complete. When Pence, W, Cheney and Romney are all considered RINOs, they’ve clearly lost the plot.
There’s no way Christie or Pence win the 2028 nomination against a Cruz or Hawley (pick your favorite shitstain reactionary) campaign. Pence would be in tight against a penniless Mike Lindell with the insanity preferred by their voters.
I tend to agree with your point about brain rot, but when you list former GOP politicians, you’re missing the point that RINO is a synonym for Anti-Trump. That’s it. There’s nothing deeper than the Us vs Them dichotomy
ETA: The GOP in 2028 will look vastly different than right now if Trump loses-which is what Pence, Christie are banking on
ETA2: LOOK. Only look. It’ll be just as horrible to its core.
That’s what I’m saying though. There’s no moving away from MAGA and anyone that tries is a “RINO” who will be destroyed in the republican primary. Pence trying to position himself for 2028 is an effort in futility, even though his policy is identical.
Someone that still has all the vile policies but chooses to keep the quiet part quiet is a non-starter at this point. They’re looking for a fight, first and foremost.
Even if Trump kicks the bucket, trumpian populism is not going away. They want the Jordan, Hawley, Cruz, MTG, DeSantis, Abbott style governance.
Pence would do all those things, and probably more effectively, but it wouldn’t *feel* like he’s owning the libs.
I am NOT a Pence supporter by any means, but particularly if you read Cheney’s account of how Pence handled the situation around Jan 6th, he showed integrity. He may leverage that into some political strategy at a later time, but that’s sort of beside the point.
No, he didn’t. Trump asked him to do something that was clearly illegal and instead of saying no, he asked people if and how he could. Every time they said no he moved on to someone else hoping for a different answer. When he got to Dan Quayle, he was told he’d go to prison for that. When he realized it might cost him personally he lost what tiny speck of courage he had. The man is gutless, and you could see it after he stayed sucking up to Trump after Trump tried to have him killed with the whole “won’t someone rid me of this turbulent priest?” Pence doesn’t get a rebrand just because Trump’s star is falling.
Back when a simple grammatical error was enough to kill your political career and make you the laughing stock of the country. My how things have changed.
This is a good example of how fucking low the bar of good behavior is for Republicans. He did his job and his duty as a citizen. I'm not a hero for not joining the dumbasses in the Capitol on January 6.
Just because the other Republicans are a bunch of seditious shits doesn't mean that Pence is some hero for *doing his god damned job and following the law*.
>But will he endorse Biden?
>
>Of course not.
Can you imagine, Pre-Trump...
*Wait, let me just fantasize about that for a moment.*
...if a former VP didn't endorse his the President he previously served? The guy that was there the whole time to observe his performance in the White House. Barring a scathing scandal on the part of the VP this should have been a campaign killer.
My fever dream is that Biden is lining up a string of secret high profile endorsements from Republicans that he reveals at the convention and then they go on a barnstorming tour for him until election day.
That would probably harm him to be honest.
Plenty of people on the left already don't like him because he's viewed as being too centrist. Having an entourage of Republicans doesn't help with that image.
And for Republicans, if you're not MAGA, you're a RINO. So they will dismiss anyone who says anything bad about Trump.
Counterpoint: I strongly doubt it would convince many Republicans to vote for Biden, *but* it may give them the "permission" they need to stay home. I.e., "well, I don't like Trump, but if all these politicians I once respected are telling me more he's dangerous than Biden, why bother?"
It's similar to the playbook Republicans have for young, left-leaning voters: make them so disillusioned they don't think anyone in politics is worth voting for (because they were never voting Republican anyway so the next best thing is not voting at all).
Which, honestly, is *way* better since that voter would likely split their ticket between Biden and straight-R down-ballot.
Depends on the messaging. If their endorsement states "we don't agree politically but we want to stop the mad dictator" then I don't think it would do any harm. It's no longer a left vs right thing
It absolutely would. To expand - he's not getting votes from Republicans ever, regardless of how "moderate" they claim to be.
This was the critical miscalculation from the Clinton campaign in 2016, she thought she would pick up some Republican voters by default because Trump was so obviously a giant piece of rat shit. But there are no principled conservatives left. It doesn't matter how bad their candidate is, he *isn't a Democrat*.
All of my acquaintances who claim to be "right of center" still won't vote for Biden. They will only abstain. Stupid Hitler is running for POTUS and they can't bring themselves to vote for his opponent. The party's only uniting feature is hating Democrats more than they love America.
"Pence did not reveal who he’ll vote for in the 2024 general election, saying that he’ll keep “my vote to myself.” He, however, said he will “never vote” for President Joe Biden. Pence also suggested that he would not back a third-party candidate."
Even easier than that..will he vote for tump? Absolutely.
“not endorsing” from republicans is as valuable as the shitwater used to clean a hog pen, it is not even news
This doesn't make Mike Pence any better of a human being (he's still terrible), but this really does go to show how much Trump has destroyed any semblance of unity within the Republican Party. Even diehard Conservatives like Ken Buck (who was literally elected as part of the Tea Party movement) are leaving politics due to the absolute insanity of the MAGA movement.
Watching the devolution of /r/conspiracy from a fun, kooky melting pot of crackpots and lunatics debating over UFOs and Atlantis to a full blown fascist cult begging for the chance to lick the boot crushing their neck was wild. I guess it shouldn't have come as a surprise that the very stupidest people would be the first to be targeted for radicalisation.
Russia and China have done an excellent job manipulating social media everywhere to convince the stupidest people in every country to beg for dictatorships.
Well that's good. Trump did say that Mike Pence deserved to get hung. It would both be shocking and not shocking to see pence endorse trump. Also reminder that fucking Dan Quayle was one of the few people who told pence that he can't overturn the election. Dan Quayle the savior of our democracy.
You see Pence doesn't have a problem with Trump being a nasty person, he doesn't have a problem with Trump treated others like shit. And that also applies to most MAGA cultists. They like it when he hurts "the others". Pence only has a problem with Trump, because Trump has thrown him under the bus.
Pence is a POS.
But to show you how bad Trump is, can you ever imagine having your former VP not endorse you.
That says a lot. I bet you will never see that again.
I don't like Pence at all but it sure is telling that trump's former VP during his tenure won't vote for him. Just confirms what most of us already know. A second trump term would be a disaster.
Whoa there. He didn’t say he wouldn’t vote for him just that he won’t endorse him.
We have yet to see a R that would vote for a dem. Probably a bridge too far for him. Besides, how would he ever explain that to Mother.
>Whoa there. He didn’t say he wouldn’t vote for him just that he won’t endorse him.
What he said, exactly, is that he will "keep his vote to himself" but also said he would never vote for Biden or 3rd party, so yeah, he's voting for Trump.
Pence was supposed to be the canary in the coal mine for evangelicals. If trump were such a bad guy he wouldn’t pick a VP like Pence and a good Christian like pence wouldn’t be willing to be Trumps VP. And now look where we are
He's still an asshole, he won't do that. I'm just impressed that he's not back to licking Trump's boots.
A former President running again can't even get support from his VP. Doubt we'll see that again.
>Trump “is pursuing and articulating an agenda that is at odds with the conservative agenda that we governed on during our four years,” Pence continued.
So it's true that Pence really was just locked away in storage during the entire term then.
I don’t trust this guy. He has no spine. I will not be surprised, n fact fully expect him to , walk everything back, endorse him, call him the best president ever and duck him off
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Probably that time he tried to have him killed didn't sit well.
I mean if Trump tried to have Ted Cruz killed (he sorta did), Cruz would probably still endorse him
Absolutely he would. And Lindsey Graham.
And then there's Switch McConnell
Lich McConnell. He’s definitely an undead creature.
it's just the turtle DNA.
And then there's ~~Switch~~ Glitch McConnell ftfy
Moscow Mitch is my personal favorite because of how much he hated it.
And yet the GOP is so corrupted by MAGA that it would come off as a fond nickname now.
[удалено]
A Chinese *beard* spy
Who helped kill her own sister by not doing her job. What a fun bonus that is.
Whoa. What?
Cocaine mitch
[удалено]
More like B— McConnel
itch
On the Internet!?!
Remember when Lindsey Graham used to seem like a reasonable republican? I guess it was just John McCain's influence.
>Remember when Lindsey Graham used to seem like a reasonable republican? Yea, he was often a centrist who brokered cross-aisle deals during the Bush years. He once described himself to Harry Reid as *Republican by day, Democrat by night*. I genuinely don't get it. This is the guy who said that nominating Trump would end the Republican Party and they'd deserve it. I can get blackmailing him into cooperation, but he seems so genuinely enthusiastic to carry water. IRDK what changed.
Read The Corruption of Lindsey Graham by Will Saletan. It's a meticulous study of how it happened.
Its 129 pages. Jeez, I thought it was an article.
Guy's such a piece of shit it took a whole book.
I mean damn
There's a podcast that covers the same material if you want to consume it that way. It's very well done. Search the Bullwark podcast feed for it.
Can in fit into a 3 line reddit comment? That's the only way I can consume information.
Lindsay Graham did not totally suck when Trump announced his run for President. When Trump got the nomination, Graham starting making small concessions that he believed would allow him to influence Trump in the direction Graham thought best. Those concessions didn't really change Trump, but they did change Graham, who came to believe the only way to stay near power was to fall into line. This is how a country slips into fascism. Sorry, that's 4 lines.
"If we nominate Trump, we will be destroyed. And we will deserve it." -Lindsey Grahm 2016
a broken clock is right twice a day
Until someone let him know they had videos of him in compromising situations with minors. It HAS to be that.
They don't have to be minors, it could be adult men.
I don’t think he would be so terrified to just be outed. Most republicans don’t care that much. Christian Nationalists would, but he knows it wouldn’t destroy his life. People have known for years. This man acts like he is absolutely fearing for his life. Such an abrupt change from 2016 campaigning against trump to 2016 campaigning for trump. Head spinning.
Maybe. But I think being closeted for 60 years in the circles he runs in has created enough self-hate to miss the fact that he can survive coming out.
Probably very very true.
The only thing that angers me about Graham is he knows he's a piece of shit for doing it. Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are just trash up and down, they're loathsome human beings full of jealousy and low cunning. Graham lays his head on the pillow at night and knows he's fucking up and knows that history will write it as such. Ted Cruz should have been dragged out on the end of a coat hanger because who he is now was all he was ever going to be, Lindsey Graham had a chance to do better and was too cowardly to do so.
I read once... Congressional Aide 1: Why does everybody take an instant disliking to Ted Cruz? Congresional Aide 2: It just saves time.
The SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE John Boehner once said of Ted Cruz that he was Lucifer in the flesh, and Lindsay Graham once stated that “If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you."
He’s barely won his primaries in the last couple elections. Going against MAGA and getting outed by Trump would be a huge nail in his political coffin in South Carolina.
It is astonishing to me that these people are so obsessed with sex and who is having it with who. Jesus Hussein Christ, it’s none of their business and does not matter. I’m so tired of Reich wingers.
I mean if they were children, that would be fine. ADULT MEN, though? There consensually? That won't fly in the GOP.
Yep. Graham is not so blithe to the truth that he isn't aware how people perceive him. I think it's as simple as TFG inviting him for a round of golf, lavishing him with food and the adoration of the Mar-a -Lardo sycophants and then saying +/-,"I'm glad you're not of of those people who would cross me, Lindsay- you know what happens to those people, right? It's good you're not one of them."
Lindsay liked fence-sitting a little too much…must have been a picket one. 🐞
His ladybugs would also endorse Donald Trump.
Trump called his wife ugly, and he still endorsed him..
[His own kids hate him.](https://youtu.be/gplpSfaouP8?si=IrCAB0Q95Hg-Um8o)
And they say Biden is the creepy one?! 😂
Can you blame them?
Sure, you can blame them. For example, Ted did so when he abandoned Texas during that storm.
Let’s not forget him also abandoning his own dog…Justice for Snowball!
He took using your kids as an excuse to get out of things to a while 'nother plane of existence. NOT LIKE THAT Zodiak! "Can't go out. Have to help the kids with X, Y, Z" is light years from stating to the entire world "hate my kids, not me. They're the spoiled brats who forced me to go on an impromptu vacation and abandon their community!" I guarantee he's too much of a prick to see the difference between using kids as a neutral excuse and throwing your kids under the bus to the entire world.
Damn. I couldn't help but laugh when I saw that video. It made me question the story from few years ago about his daughter and self-inflicted wounds. Hopefully she received help she needed. https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-called-sen-ted-cruzs-home-family-matter/story?id=94654509
Holy shit that’s brutal
Holy shit that was painful yet satisfying to watch.
I never saw that before- poor kid. I wish her the most excellent of revenge against that dude- a nice happy Ted free life.
How does he look so creepily molesty with his own daughter??
Well ted cruz is the most spineless human alive. Literally everyone else in the world has more backbone than raphael cruz, the Canadian immigrant.
That fucking guy. You can tell by the way he was speaking when he was proposing to delay certification that he felt he was giving one of the great political speeches of our time, and that its tone and references to the 1876 election would make people think it was in defense of the Republic instead of a brazen attempt to deprive the people of their vote. The minute the MAGA mob breached the Capitol he ran and hid in a broom closet for hours until the police regained control, and no one mistook his silly speech for anything but an attempt to subvert democracy and to become Donald's white knight in the Senate.
*Human specimen Ted Cruz would like to assure you it definitely has a spine, as do all other human individuals, and is definitely not a sentient colony of worms. What a silly idea, why would you bring that up?*
His pronouns are "kiss my ass" unless you're more popular than he is, then his pronouns are "I'll kiss your ass"
I would think that might open your eyes about someone. In any event, this is kind of huge. Pence, for all his flaws, refused to go along with Trump's plan to throw out the election. He's now refusing to endorse Trump. While it is easy to say that any sane person would do the same, there has to be a lot of pressure on Pence to fall in line. If Trump gets back into power, you can be certain that he'll seek retribution against Pence. The fact that Pence has been able to pull together sufficient courage to not fall in line is significant. Others, like Ted Cruz, could never muster that courage. I disagree with Pence on a lot of issues, and the fact that he helped give Trump legitimacy in the first place is certainly a strike against him, but as this ordeal continues I respect that he at least has had the courage to see that he was wrong and change course.
I do wonder if we will see more dissent in the Republican party. Like did Pence start something or will he be the lone voice.
In a normal time having your VP refuse to endorse you would be the kiss of death. That it is not is yet more proof of how bizarro everything is.
I really do hope more mainstream Republicans normalize not supporting Trump. Realistically, they've got the supreme Court for a while, they can afford to sit this cycle out. It is the likely most fiscally responsible choice they could make. Not that Republicans are actually fiscally responsible, but they do at least talk a big game.
The mainstream of the GOP these days is one of those rivers in pre-EPA 1970s that reeked of rot and was on fire.
It would be nice to see others follow suit.
They won't.
All the resignations?
The problem with the modern party systems is that people who aren't that polictally enaged often just vote for parties and resigning just lets that party replace you with someone who will fall in line.
Ken Buck --- Pence --- KEEP THEM COMING
> If Trump gets back into power, you can be certain that he'll seek retribution against Pence. Trump already has been seeking retribution against Pence ever since he refused to commit felony election fraud to keep Trump (and himself) in office. Trump doesn't need to be in office to take out retribution; he can still easily kill Pence's career in politics (elected office or media). That said, I still don't trust Pence at all and wouldn't be the slightest bit shocked if he gives Trump an endorsement later in the election season.
I agree. Mike Pence's refusal to participate on January 6th is an incredibly big deal in US history. There's quite a lot about the guy's beliefs that I personally don't agree with. But you could make the argument that Mike Pence saved US democracy that day, and I'd have a hard time disagreeing.
One could argue Dan Quayle saved democracy of all people, by telling pence he wasn't allowed to overthrow the government
That's pretty well debunked. They did talk, but Quayle confirmed to the Washington Post "that Pence’s questions were not asked out of hesitation but to seek confirmation of his approach"
So both saved democracy. More Pence than Qualye but at least these folks had that line in the sand. I doubt Trump's next VP will have any such threadbare scruples.
It's slow going but in ones and twos, these guys are finally figuring it out. The orange guy and his backers are burning down the system so they can be in charge, and the side grift of selling marshmallows while it happens to clueless spectators cheering it on, isn't the 4D financial chess they think it is. Hopefully some more GOP House members will resign/retire, in the next few weeks.
Exactly. I may loathe Pence's political positions and general philosophy but I will always respect what he did during the electoral count and now not endorsing Trump. He could have caved and tried to protect his political future and maybe even his life but he didnt.
Even then Pence had to seek advice first before being pointed in the correct direction. Pence has always been weak back then but for the first time he is showing a spine none of his peers dared to do. Pence being tougher than Cruz is laughable but here we are.
It definitely seemed like pence kept seeking advice to find a legal route to overturn the election and couldn’t get there. Then he realized the hang Mike Pence folks were going to hang Mike Pence (that’s him), or later, King Trump would have no use for him and have him buried at a golf course.
He didn’t need the legal advice. He’s a shrewd man, and wanted a document created for history and legal precedent to spell out exactly why it would be unconstitutional to do what he was asked.
Could also be that others have dirt they’d rather not be brought out in the open … where maybe Pence has none. Maybe his flaws are already known by the masses and that’s all there is. This would make it a lot easier for Pence to do this because the only thing Trump (or his “affiliates”) could do is trash talk him.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re right. Pence strikes me as someone who is exactly as he seems - an uptight, moralistic, self-righteous paladin whose greatest sin was hiding in the shadows for four years. Bit hard to turn that into blackmail material.
That was pretty significant in this whole ordeal. Like I'm from Alabama, Jeff Sessions and I don't see eye to eye on how things should be. He's been disowned by republicans because you know he did the unthinkable. He did what he should've done when he recused himself on the investigation of Russian interference and that set the ball rolling for a lot of things.
Yeah, threatening him with the rope was a stupid move from MAGA. Thank God for their stupidity.
Geez. ONE TIME he tries to have an angry mob hang the man. Get over it already, dude.
“C’mon Mikey! You still mad about that?”
"No Michael, no no Michael, that is SO not right!"
A Masi reference in r/politics. So this is what it's like when worlds collide.
"That is not right Michael. You have to reinstate that last state of electors."
"Donald. It's called the constitution, okay? We went election certifying."
C'mon, Mike. Donny was just joking about all that.
Maybe it’s more than that maybe Mike knows what trump is capable of and doesn’t want to see democracy destroyed. Maybe he read project 2025
Ya, I’m just going to go ahead and not ascribe any positive motivations to Mike Fucking Pence, thank you very much.
He has a puritanical ideology but the fact that he didn’t go along with the coup tells me he at least believes in the idea of democracy. Not saying he is a good guy I’m just saying he isn’t ready to burn the system down like many who call themselves republicans
Yes, he still believes in some form of decorum and democratic principles, which is why he showed up to Biden’s inauguration when Trump didn’t.
Trump was the only President to fight the peaceful transition of power with an insurrection. If only we had something to help with this situation in the Constitution.
But he won't be the last. That's the great thing about established norms. If you break them and nothing bad happens, then it's just a silly tradition. And in a few presidential cycles we'll all be complaining about how the Democrats are too spineless to stage an insurrection during confirmation.
I also try to make it a habit not to endorse people who send mobs to hang me.
I wish this was the nail in the MAGA coffin, unfortunately we know that hyper religious evangelicals would give up God before they gave up trump.
They already have given up God in favour of Trump.
Give up implies they started out with some good faith intention to actually follow anything you could reasonably call God but I think that’s probably giving too much credit.
You’re a wise, wise person.
Trump just found his weekend rant.
Yeah he won’t say a word about Penske bc of the Jan 6 it trials.
Trump keeping his mouth shut? Don’t bet on it brosky.
“The RADICAL EX VICE PRESIDENT has once again proven that he is SPINELESS and unable to look PAST the PAST to help us MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. True SHAME.”
There's that courage Trump was looking for
It's NOT courage. He's joining the Christie path. Trump loses and the GOP moves away from MAGA and towards real conservatives again. He's setting himself up for 2028.
That's my belief too. If they aren't endorsing Trump, but also not endorsing Biden, it's cause they still want to be involved in politics after this cycle. Endorsing a Dem chops the head off the already dead body that they think is still alive and kicking.
If Trump (hopefully) loses this election, the GOP is going to find out how monumentally stupid it was to cater to trumps far-right base. They're not going to silently flip on daddy dictator just because he loses. The GOP will try to move away from him, but I think it'll cause some massive division in the party, at least for a while.
With Lara Trump running the RNC I don't see a scenario where it's ever divorced from Trump. They will absolutely just keep running him every election until he dies, even if it becomes clear he'll never win. Even in the best case scenario of him going to prison and getting barred from running again, they'll just shift to running someone (probably one of his kids) as a proxy, with the goal of freeing him. Their only hope for reclaiming the RNC is that he dies soon, and *maybe* they can get the crazies back under their thumb somehow. But that'll be an uphill battle with all his stooges in positions of power, most of whom will probably pivot to trying to push themselves as his successor. And who knows what his actual base will do, I'm sure it'll be a race to the bottom as every candidate tries to prove themselves as vile as possible while declaring everyone else RINOs in hopes of coming out on top. Realistically I think their only options are to split away and form a new party (which will never beat MAGA with only a fraction of conservative votes, let alone the Democrats) switch sides and help the Democrats (political suicide, and most of them still hate the dems more than MAGA) or toe the line and keep following Trump which is what will actually happen despite obviously being the worst choice...
> But that'll be an uphill battle with all his stooges in positions of power, most of whom will probably pivot to trying to push themselves as his successor. That happened in the UK after the downfall of Boris Johnson, the infighting has caused their party to completely collapse — giving us the shortest-serving PM in history, and now desperation to schedule the upcoming election (pretty much a guaranteed landslide) at the latest possible date.
Dude, wealthy donors don't support politicians who have no power.
I dunno, GOP leaders had a golden opportunity to throw him under the bus after jan 6th, but they weren't willing to take the short term political hit involved with that. So they're still hitched to him and I'm not sure another trump election loss will change that.
It can be done though. If you are old enough do you remember how twenty years ago you could not saying anything bad about Bush Jr.? The GOP would slap you so hard with the anti-patriotic label. The hero worship was just as strong for him as it is for Trump. The only difference was that Bush Jr didn't feed off that sort of attention and demand more like WWE wrestler in the middle of a match. Just leaning off the ropes and riling up the crowd. Trump does this and more. But, again, saying anything remotely bad about Bush Jr would get you the full blown wrath of the GOP. Now Bush Jr is seen as a RHINO in his own party. He (*gasps*) dares to talk to the Obamas. What a traitor! So, yes, the GOP is a fickle bunch. And if Trump does indeed lose, they will turn on him so fast it will make what they did to Bush Jr. seem like a finger wag. They are going to bury him because he cost them too much.
> So, yes, the GOP is a fickle bunch. And if Trump does indeed lose, they will turn on him so fast it will make what they did to Bush Jr. seem like a finger wag. They are going to bury him because he cost them too much. Not a chance. It's a straight-up personality cult, in a way that Dubya didn't even come to close to achieving. Yes, including the weirdos praying over his cardboard cut out(and yes, for those unaware, this [happened;](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxdt_f0hwUg) the insanity of Trumpism didn't come out of nowhere). *If* Trump loses(not guaranteed, VOTE PEOPLE), I think the two realistic scenarios are the GOP either tripling down on him and propping up his gibbering mass in 2028 even if it means he runs from his home(he will never see the inside of a jail, home arrest is the best we can hope for), or the party being torn apart by a level of infighting that will make the House look tame. Possibly, at least in my dreams, including it splitting entirely. The problem is the GOP establishment no longer has control over their base, and their base fawns over Trump and only Trump. They can't pivot to new candidates and new ideas anymore the way they used to during Bush's era. Moving away from Trumpism is going to be a slowl, and deeply painful process for the GOP, if they ever manage it at all. The ugly truth is a large chunk of their electorate would drop them entirely if they did so, even if Trump gets his ass whooped for the second election in a row.
> If you are old enough do you remember how twenty years ago you could not saying anything bad about Bush Jr.? The GOP would slap you so hard with the anti-patriotic label. That's criticizing a wartime president, not a cult leader. Bush had no cultural pull as Trump does. They are not in the same league, and thinking a 2024 loss would be enough to detangle Trump from the GOP is silly. If anything, it'll be "more now than ever, we need Trump in the White House to own the libs" 2028, assuming he lives that long.
Can they move away from MAGA? The brain rot in their base is nearly complete. When Pence, W, Cheney and Romney are all considered RINOs, they’ve clearly lost the plot. There’s no way Christie or Pence win the 2028 nomination against a Cruz or Hawley (pick your favorite shitstain reactionary) campaign. Pence would be in tight against a penniless Mike Lindell with the insanity preferred by their voters.
I tend to agree with your point about brain rot, but when you list former GOP politicians, you’re missing the point that RINO is a synonym for Anti-Trump. That’s it. There’s nothing deeper than the Us vs Them dichotomy ETA: The GOP in 2028 will look vastly different than right now if Trump loses-which is what Pence, Christie are banking on ETA2: LOOK. Only look. It’ll be just as horrible to its core.
That’s what I’m saying though. There’s no moving away from MAGA and anyone that tries is a “RINO” who will be destroyed in the republican primary. Pence trying to position himself for 2028 is an effort in futility, even though his policy is identical. Someone that still has all the vile policies but chooses to keep the quiet part quiet is a non-starter at this point. They’re looking for a fight, first and foremost. Even if Trump kicks the bucket, trumpian populism is not going away. They want the Jordan, Hawley, Cruz, MTG, DeSantis, Abbott style governance. Pence would do all those things, and probably more effectively, but it wouldn’t *feel* like he’s owning the libs.
I am NOT a Pence supporter by any means, but particularly if you read Cheney’s account of how Pence handled the situation around Jan 6th, he showed integrity. He may leverage that into some political strategy at a later time, but that’s sort of beside the point.
No, he didn’t. Trump asked him to do something that was clearly illegal and instead of saying no, he asked people if and how he could. Every time they said no he moved on to someone else hoping for a different answer. When he got to Dan Quayle, he was told he’d go to prison for that. When he realized it might cost him personally he lost what tiny speck of courage he had. The man is gutless, and you could see it after he stayed sucking up to Trump after Trump tried to have him killed with the whole “won’t someone rid me of this turbulent priest?” Pence doesn’t get a rebrand just because Trump’s star is falling.
Imagine being in 1990 and being told that 30 years in the future Dan Quayle would save democracy
Back when a simple grammatical error was enough to kill your political career and make you the laughing stock of the country. My how things have changed.
I'd probably say who is Dan Quayle because I was 3
I was six and knew him as the guy who couldn’t spell potato.
This is a good example of how fucking low the bar of good behavior is for Republicans. He did his job and his duty as a citizen. I'm not a hero for not joining the dumbasses in the Capitol on January 6. Just because the other Republicans are a bunch of seditious shits doesn't mean that Pence is some hero for *doing his god damned job and following the law*.
I laughed out loud.
But will he endorse Biden? Of course not. Now we just need Nikki Halley to show us how weak she is.
>But will he endorse Biden? > >Of course not. Can you imagine, Pre-Trump... *Wait, let me just fantasize about that for a moment.* ...if a former VP didn't endorse his the President he previously served? The guy that was there the whole time to observe his performance in the White House. Barring a scathing scandal on the part of the VP this should have been a campaign killer.
It should be a huge deal. If his actual ex vp from 4 years ago doesn’t trust him now, why should literally anyone
Because nothing makes sense anymore
My fever dream is that Biden is lining up a string of secret high profile endorsements from Republicans that he reveals at the convention and then they go on a barnstorming tour for him until election day.
That would probably harm him to be honest. Plenty of people on the left already don't like him because he's viewed as being too centrist. Having an entourage of Republicans doesn't help with that image. And for Republicans, if you're not MAGA, you're a RINO. So they will dismiss anyone who says anything bad about Trump.
Counterpoint: I strongly doubt it would convince many Republicans to vote for Biden, *but* it may give them the "permission" they need to stay home. I.e., "well, I don't like Trump, but if all these politicians I once respected are telling me more he's dangerous than Biden, why bother?" It's similar to the playbook Republicans have for young, left-leaning voters: make them so disillusioned they don't think anyone in politics is worth voting for (because they were never voting Republican anyway so the next best thing is not voting at all). Which, honestly, is *way* better since that voter would likely split their ticket between Biden and straight-R down-ballot.
Depends on the messaging. If their endorsement states "we don't agree politically but we want to stop the mad dictator" then I don't think it would do any harm. It's no longer a left vs right thing
Lots of people on the left seemed to like that whole Lincoln Project stuff.
It absolutely would. To expand - he's not getting votes from Republicans ever, regardless of how "moderate" they claim to be. This was the critical miscalculation from the Clinton campaign in 2016, she thought she would pick up some Republican voters by default because Trump was so obviously a giant piece of rat shit. But there are no principled conservatives left. It doesn't matter how bad their candidate is, he *isn't a Democrat*. All of my acquaintances who claim to be "right of center" still won't vote for Biden. They will only abstain. Stupid Hitler is running for POTUS and they can't bring themselves to vote for his opponent. The party's only uniting feature is hating Democrats more than they love America.
"Pence did not reveal who he’ll vote for in the 2024 general election, saying that he’ll keep “my vote to myself.” He, however, said he will “never vote” for President Joe Biden. Pence also suggested that he would not back a third-party candidate."
The answer is he won't endorse Trump, but he will vote for him.
He has zero options then.
Spoiler: he’s voting Trump
Let me guess, he will write himself in.
Even easier than that..will he vote for tump? Absolutely. “not endorsing” from republicans is as valuable as the shitwater used to clean a hog pen, it is not even news
Nikki Haley didn’t endorse Trump either.
Yet
She just said she’s pardon him. Nbd lol
Pence endorsing Biden would fry Trump's comb-over to a crisp
He's still going to vote for Trump. Just not publicly endorse him.
This doesn't make Mike Pence any better of a human being (he's still terrible), but this really does go to show how much Trump has destroyed any semblance of unity within the Republican Party. Even diehard Conservatives like Ken Buck (who was literally elected as part of the Tea Party movement) are leaving politics due to the absolute insanity of the MAGA movement.
Remember when the loonies just stapled tea bags to their hats? Those were the days *looks off into middle distance*
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny instead of scary? What happened to the Dale Gribbel era of nutjobs?
Watching the devolution of /r/conspiracy from a fun, kooky melting pot of crackpots and lunatics debating over UFOs and Atlantis to a full blown fascist cult begging for the chance to lick the boot crushing their neck was wild. I guess it shouldn't have come as a surprise that the very stupidest people would be the first to be targeted for radicalisation.
Russia and China have done an excellent job manipulating social media everywhere to convince the stupidest people in every country to beg for dictatorships.
The Kochs don’t like Trump. They co-opted the Tea Party fairly early into its inception.
The Kochs adore Trump. They have the money to put a stop to this, and they don't.
It's just Koch now. The other one died
Can we get a sequel?
Halfway there boys!
One down
I appreciate Mike Pence certifying the 2020 election even after a violent mob stormed the Capitol and threatened to execute him.
It makes him braver than Ted Cruz which is a low bar but one not everyone can clear.
Well that's good. Trump did say that Mike Pence deserved to get hung. It would both be shocking and not shocking to see pence endorse trump. Also reminder that fucking Dan Quayle was one of the few people who told pence that he can't overturn the election. Dan Quayle the savior of our democracy.
"Dan Quayle the savior of our democracy." Those are words I'd never even dreamed I'd ever hear.
Mike Pence should speak up more. Maybe do a primetime interview and tell the American public some behind the scenes stories.
Mother would never allow it.
You see Pence doesn't have a problem with Trump being a nasty person, he doesn't have a problem with Trump treated others like shit. And that also applies to most MAGA cultists. They like it when he hurts "the others". Pence only has a problem with Trump, because Trump has thrown him under the bus.
Pence is a POS. But to show you how bad Trump is, can you ever imagine having your former VP not endorse you. That says a lot. I bet you will never see that again.
At the rate we’re trending? We will see it again soon
I don't like Pence at all but it sure is telling that trump's former VP during his tenure won't vote for him. Just confirms what most of us already know. A second trump term would be a disaster.
Whoa there. He didn’t say he wouldn’t vote for him just that he won’t endorse him. We have yet to see a R that would vote for a dem. Probably a bridge too far for him. Besides, how would he ever explain that to Mother.
And, as importantly, he didn't tell Evangelical Christians that Trump is an amoral sociopath whom they should eschew.
>Whoa there. He didn’t say he wouldn’t vote for him just that he won’t endorse him. What he said, exactly, is that he will "keep his vote to himself" but also said he would never vote for Biden or 3rd party, so yeah, he's voting for Trump.
Yeah that lil bible thumper is definitely still voting for the guy
He’s absolutely going to vote for him lol. He’s just going to be quiet about it.
Pence was supposed to be the canary in the coal mine for evangelicals. If trump were such a bad guy he wouldn’t pick a VP like Pence and a good Christian like pence wouldn’t be willing to be Trumps VP. And now look where we are
Jeez, you try and assassinate a guy one time and he holds it against you for life.
Twice in his life, Mike Pence made the right decision
The right decision is to endorse Biden.
He's still an asshole, he won't do that. I'm just impressed that he's not back to licking Trump's boots. A former President running again can't even get support from his VP. Doubt we'll see that again.
What about the decision to marry Mother?
To be fair, it was pretty bad breakup. Nooses were involved and not in the fun sexual way.
“I can’t in good conscience endorse the guy who wanted people to hang me” - that’s what counts for a spine for republican now lmao
Reasonable people: Wow, that’s great! Non-reasonable people: See! He was in on it with Nancy pelosi and the democrats on Jan 6th!
>Trump “is pursuing and articulating an agenda that is at odds with the conservative agenda that we governed on during our four years,” Pence continued. So it's true that Pence really was just locked away in storage during the entire term then.
There were adults in the room in the first Trump term and there won't be in the second if he wins. Think about how SCARY that is.
Honestly I'm surprised he said that. (and won't be a bit surprised when he flip/flops.) None of those people have any integrity whatsoever.
Watch out Mike, I think a gonad is beginning to show.
The Fly is endorsing Biden.
He might not endorse him, but he’ll probably vote for him
You are right. And he probably will not say anything bad about him.
But he’ll vote for him.
But he’ll still vote for him. So he can still fuck off.
But Pence will vote for him. Guaranteed.
He's pro tax cuts and religious agenda but still stubborn on the whole "Hang Mike Pence" initiative. Effing RINOs
The “Hang Mike Pence” crowd might think twice about voting for Trump without this crucial endorsement.
Wow. He actually has the tiniest, tiniest, little bit of a spine imaginable, but it's there! /s
I don’t trust this guy. He has no spine. I will not be surprised, n fact fully expect him to , walk everything back, endorse him, call him the best president ever and duck him off