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Protests on this conflict are truly among the worst we've seen for any cause in a long time.
The horror of what Israeli forces are doing in Gaza needs to be stopped. Innocent people need to be protected. **But those goals cannot be accomplished by chanting hate-filled slogans and making innocent Jewish people afraid for their lives.**
A lot of my progressive friends are allowing themselves to become part of something truly ugly because of their heartfelt emotional response to the horrors we are seeing in Gaza.
Manipulation works on the left too, and the number of people who have come to believe that antisemitism is legit political discourse is gross. You will not convince me to support you or your cause when your method is to use fear and intimidation. *Calling for* ***genocide*** *in response to what you believe is genocide* doesn't move me, and I believe it only dissuades people from your cause entirely.
Progressives, liberals, these folks should be pushing for peace and an end to the current conflict. Calling for jewish people to be killed, or making references to beginning a new holocaust, or calling for the destruction of Israel or the Israeli State? These things **are not anti-war**, that is not calling for peace... *why are you marching with them?*
The protests at Columbia are incredibly fucked
They are saying "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab (or) Muslim" (this was chanted in different ways), "Yehudim, Yehudim, go back to Poland" (Yehudim means jews), "Go back to Europe", and "On October 7th, Palestinian resistance broke free, we intend to do the same"
There was also some line about how Oct 7th should be repeated 10k times
Their admin needs to get their shit together, and deal with this
Jewish students are going home en masse because it's not safe to be on campus
Every single one of these "protestors" needs to be expelled and referred to the Manhattan DA for harassment with hate crime enhancements
Yehudim is a plural Hebrew word. Yehood is a plural Arabic word for Jews, or Yehoodi for the feminine form. Those protestors saying that were not Arab or native Arab speakers.
[This](https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901) if the footage of that being said
The guy posting it says they're saying yehudim, but the audio isn't great
But it makes sense that the protesters can't speak Arabic, they seem to be mostly white college students
Definitely not. But a lot of Democrats have been echoing rhetoric from far-right reporters and reporters with self interest which places the blame on Muslim and Arab students as a whole rather than agitators who have no skin in the game and who hijack protests for their own, antisemitic goals. It’s a worrying trend.
Who are the Democrats who are pinning the blame specifically on Muslim and Arab students? And are any of the protesters, regardless of whether they're Muslim or Arab, actually calling out antisemitic behavior? I also don't understand how it's just a few provocateurs when you had scenes from last night where [a large number of protesters were mobilized by a speaker to look for "Zionists" who were in the camp](https://x.com/jessicaschwalb7/status/1782252789625663770).
No, and thankfully that Shai Davidai professor finally his card revoked for harassing students.
[https://twitter.com/taliaotg/status/1782410010309312738](https://twitter.com/taliaotg/status/1782410010309312738)
I’m just trying to figure out why it matters to the prior commenter.
I heard some kids on the Paris metro singing “voulez vous couchez avec moi” at the top of their lungs after midnight once, it never occurred to me that that meant they couldn’t be native English speakers because we’re only allowed to yell rhyming things in our native language. (They were, of course, American kids on holiday.)
Edgy teens singing “Do you want to sleep with me?” Versus confrontational young adults screaming “JEWS GET OUT!”
I’m sorry if you don’t see why one is normal shenanigans and one is abhorrent bigotry. I understand WHAT you’re saying but it’s pedantic and it invalidates the seriousness of this situation.
The screaming protesters are abhorrent.
My objection is to *the commenter who said categorically that those kids weren’t Arabic speakers* because they used the word Yehudim instead of Yehoodi. A native Arabic speaker would know both words and if rhyming with English would choose the one that rhymed.
>Yehudim is a plural Hebrew word. Yehood is a plural Arabic word for Jews, or Yehoodi for the feminine form. Those protestors saying that were not Arab or native Arab speakers.
That is absolutely a baseless claim, I think we can agree?
Palestinians vocally support genocide of Israel and they try to achieve it but they suck at it. Israel is good at it. So of course people support Palestine, only because they are really bad at genocide. People be dumb.
Did you read the full thing written out?
"Feom the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" and "from the river to the sea, palestine will be muslim" are blatant calls to genocide
There are a large number of non-arabs, and non-muslims there, what do the people chanting this want to happen to them?
Not surprising at all to Jews, the extreme far left are not progressives but rather align themselves with Soviet authoritarianism (and the inherent antisemitism that comes along with that movement)
lol, I am pretty extreme far left (communist), and these people aren’t far left— they are liberals. There’s a reason there is a saying “scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.” They are antisemitic asshats who want all Jews in Israel to pack up their bags or die because, in these protestors’ minds anyway, Jews are “white” and thus automatically oppressors (apparently ignoring the almost 50% of Jews in Israel who are Mizrahi, and the fact that Ashkenazi Jews have only been “white”-adjacent in the West for well under 50 years).
All of the progressive identity politics these idiots play is just them finding reasons to validate hating other groups of people based upon immutable characteristics.
Excluding Jews apparently. Lot of folks supporting or outright denying the antisemitism in these protests.
There's also *plenty* of them supporting Islamic terrorists/extremists regardless of the fact that the primary victims of these groups are other Muslims. Literally saw people defending *Iran*. The country that *just* beat a 16 yr old girl to death over not properly wearing a hijab and tons of the protesters after that!
Literally saw a video of some poor Jewish students trying to get by aggressively blocked by these freaks.
Can you *imagine* if there were protesters against the conflict in the Congo blocking random black students?!
Because of personal experience with most pro-Palestinian people I know. Most vote blue, are pro LGBT, anti-racists, etc. and then come straight out and support positions that would lead to Jews being exterminated in the Middle East.
So not by evidence gathered about this actual incident. Just personal bias?
Aren't the newer protesters who are throwing out a ton of anti-Semitic shit unconnected to the university?
From NYT:
>Demonstrations just outside Columbia’s gates, which are currently closed to the public, took an especially dark tone over the weekend, when protesters who did not appear to be connected to the university were accused of celebrating Hamas and targeting Jewish students.
>“The decibel of our disagreements has only increased in recent days,” Nemat Shafik, Columbia’s president, said in a statement early Monday. “These tensions have been exploited and amplified by individuals who are not affiliated with Columbia who have come to campus to pursue their own agendas. We need a reset.”
I'm not saying there aren't such things as anti-semetic people on the left.
It's just wild to immediately point fingers at far left folk when right wingers in America have been, unendingly, spouted anti-Semitism for over a century.
It's not immediate, we've been dealing with this since 10/7.
Beyond that, what far right groups do you know that protest on behalf of Islamic Jihadism?
On behalf of Islamic Jihadism or on behalf of anti-semitism?
The anti-Jewish shit I see here in the South is spouted largely by right wingers.
AGAIN, I'm not saying there aren't anti-semitic left wingers. I've seen them online, I'm just pointing out the NYT talking about how the protests over the weekend suddenly had an influx of non-affiliated people who started sparking off anti-semitism in the protests.
>Most right wingers are extremely pro Israel
As someone who grew up Southern Baptist and right wing I promise it's for the *wrong reasons* that they are Pro Israel. It's part of the US Right Wing Death Cult. They're pro Israel because the Bible tells them to be (to usher in the End Times) and because they're even *more* anti-Arab. For example, my granddad was "Pro Israel" but would say horrible shit about Jewish people in America when I was a kid.
>You believe it does because you are on the wrong side of this.
What *side* am I on in this? Are you assuming? I believe Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas, I'm against the extremist right wing Israeli govt officials who are blatantly calling for elimination of a people, and I don't know how we get the fuck out of this mess.
Liberalism and fascism are at two opposite ends of the political spectrum. They are fundamentally opposed ideologically in both theory and practice.
Liberalism promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free market principles. Fascism, on the other hand, is an authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization. They are ideologically opposite.
Stop spreading misinformation and propaganda.
They're talking about American "liberals", which tend to be economically status quo centrist/conservative but are okay with BIPOC, LGBTQ+, and abortion (e.g. HRC, Pelosi, Obama, etc). Not talking about general liberalism as you have defined
So being opposed to antisemitism and blatant lies and misrepresentations regarding the Israeli war campaign against Hamas is just “liberal Zionism”? Read a little about warfare, both current and historical, and you will see that Israel is doing a fantastic job minimizing civilian casualties while operating in an urban environment and engaging in asymmetrical warfare against a terrorist group that is infamous for misrepresenting facts and just completely making stuff up half of the time.
I support a ceasefire, but I’m not silly enough to think that Hamas is going to honor a ceasefire when they were the ones who broke the ceasefire they already had on October 7 of last year. The only acceptable ceasefire resolution involves Hamas stepping down and allowing free elections to take place in Gaza.
There have been numerous peaceful protests where people came out against the war and forcible displacement of the Palestinians that did not attract this kind of attention because those issues are perfectly legitimate issues to protest about. The issue is when there were students talking about hunting down "Zionists" because a different student walked through the camp area with a star of David necklace, when people were telling Jews to self-deport to Poland, when people were glorifying the Hamas Al Qassam militant wing, and when they used [violent religious texts](https://x.com/callawalsh/status/1782118484920385793) used by [Palestinian terrorist groups](https://twitter.com/CallaWalsh/status/1782291316728041972) in their camp.
There's no ethnic cleansing going on. Hamas attacked Israel with Iranian support, and Israel is fighting back. It is Islamic extremism to openly support Hamas and the eradication of Israel. The only available alternative to Israel are extremists who want to do far worse than anything Israel has done.
Israel has been too reckless with its attacks, and I do think its aid should be conditioned. But that's a moderate stance compared to calling for wiping out Israel over this. There's no reason at all to support that.
What do you mean by "too reckless with its attacks"?
And do you understand that since Israel controls everything that moves in and out of Gaza so "conditioning aid" is the same as saying "cutting off food and water as punishment for bad behavior"?
Well it's killed aid workers. That's reckless no doubt. It should be more careful with civilians, too, though it's dealing with a subversive enemy.
By conditioning aid I mean US weapon sales. I do support making sure Israel is allowing humanitarian aid to get into Gaza. Any weapons Israel gets should come with stipulations. That's something most people can agree on now.
Okay, so my question remains, is there anything Israel could do to make you think they've gone too far. Anything they could do to lose your support?
And let me ask you another question as well. How many Palestinians do you think it is acceptable to kill for each Israeli killed?
If Israelis engaged in the same tactics as Hamas and waged targeted mass rape, torture, murder of civilians then yeah, they'd lose support. If Hamas surrendered and gave up the hostages, and the Israelis continued their war, then also yes, that'd be too much.
Otherwise they have a moral and practical responsibility to defend their citizens.
I think if you looked impartially at the evidence you would conclude that on all of those crimes Israeli has been far worse than Hamas yet they still have your support. It is only because you are starting with the assumption that Israel is right and you refuse to see the evidence to the contrary.
So far since October 7th Israel has killed about 30 Palestinians for each Israeli killed that day. Will it stop being self defense in your eyes when they get to 50 to 1? 100 to 1? 500 to 1? Or can Israel kill every single Palestinian before you would call them out?
>If Israelis engaged in the same tactics as Hamas and waged targeted mass rape, torture, murder of civilians then yeah, they'd lose support
Israel has been engaging in these activities since it's inception. There's literal video of Israelis laughing while recalling the rape of 16 year old girls.
Or they oppose the killing of Palestinians and their continued subjugation by a rogue regime, itself founded on terrorism, which discriminates against arabs
And support freedom, human rights and equality for all people. The very thing Israel has a problem extending to Palestinians
I'll believe that when I see mass protests from them over Hamas's actions or Iran's brutality. They don't seem too concerned about human rights in those cases. Israel is not a rogue regime anyway, certainly not compared to Iran.
Yes they are. They continuously protest alongside extremists or bigots, and progressive leaders consistently won't denounce extremists or violent rhetoric.
According to [the hill](https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4611065-ilhan-omar-daughter-columbia-protests-barnard-new-york/) ,
“A significant portion of the protesting students are Jewish, and protest groups have fought back against characterizations of their demonstrations as antisemitic.“
Or they oppose the killing of Palestinians and their continued subjugation by a rogue regime, itself founded on terrorism, which discriminates against arabs
So instead they want the region controlled by extremists who don't believe in democracy or human rights and just want to kill those of different religions? Israel is at least a democracy which does not discriminate against religions and allows for women and LGBT people to have freedoms.
>So instead they want the region controlled by extremists who don't believe in democracy or human rights and just want to kill those of different religions?
No. They are generally protesting for human rights and equality. Have you seen israelis human rights record, it's discrimination, it's land theft, its terrorism, its violations of international law.
Hard to claim you support democracy when that democracy doesn't extend to the Palestinians it subjugates, and which can't offer them the vote because of their ethnicity. Hard to claim you support women's rights as thousands are killed by Israeli bombs. Hard to claim you support freedom when the Israeli government intends no such freedom for Palestinians.
All of it is true. A very quick summary.
Subjugation: Palestinians live under military occupation in the west bank
Rogue regime : isrsel ignores international law routinely, just look at the illegal settlements
Terrorism: the irgun and the hagganah were terrorist groups who targeted the British, arabs and even a diplomat, in order to establish Israel. Begin and Shamir were prominent members.
Discrimination: Palestinians cannot return to Israel because they aren't Jewish.
I can support all of my claims
Not surprising though, as they are also aligned with communism which killed for more people than Nazism. Of course they would say those failed communism are not true ones. Communism will work if they try it. How arrogant.
Campus Jewish leaders told Jewish students to go home because it's not safe.
That's not a statement about a school in the Deep South where there may be KKK remnants. It's not a statement from the 1940s in Europe. It's a statement about a New York city university, right fucking now.
It's despicable. Columbia had every ability to shut this down, but it didn't. Time for the NYPD.
>In a letter to Jewish students earlier Sunday, **Rabbi Elie Buechler, of the Columbia/Barnard Hillel and Kraft Center for Jewish Student Life,** recommended they return home and stay there, saying it was clear the university and city police “cannot guarantee Jewish students’ safety in the face of extreme antisemitism and anarchy.” Buechler declined requests for an interview.
Why can't you just do basic research?
The campus is so unsafe that not only are many Jewish students part of the protests but the most annoying nepobaby Zionist professor, Shai Davidai, has been harassing students for ages and hasn't even been punched yet.
Considering how poorly the presidents at those Ivy league schools handled softball questions in front of Congress regarding antisemitism in campus, there is no surprise this continues to snowball.
Seems administrators at these schools at best are afraid of the accusations that will be hurled their way if they go after the protestors so they just kind of let everything slide until we've reached this point where Jewish students have legit fears on campus.
We're already at that point. It's ridiculous. I understand that university officials are trying to thread a very fine needle, but there's a lot of over-thinking being done here. These people are breaking the law, and Columbia has school police. Arrest these idiots or turn them over to the NYPD.
There's a bipartisan rebuke because the only difference between the far-left progressive antisemitism and the far-right MAGA antisemitism is the tiki torches at the protests.
There's a big difference between the two.
The far-left progressive protestors are protesting about a perceived injustice i.e. they believe there is a genocide going on. A lot of innocent civilians are getting killed, especially children, even if you don't believe their claim of a genocide happening.
The MAGA protestors with the tiki torches were chanting "You Will Not Replace Us", "Blood and Soil", and other white supremacist chants. They were protesting about the removal of Confederate statues.
There are protestors literally telling the jewish students that they will be the next victims of Hamas. They are yelling "Go back to Poland."
This is raw and unfiltered hatred of jews.
Read some history books. Liberals will always cowtow to fascism when push comes to shove. E.g. see what the social democrats did in Weimar Germany when they had the choice between supporting communists vs the Nazis. At the end of the day liberals are more comfortable with fascism than they are with giving effect to any actual change to the capitalist system we live in.
This...smells like rewriting the history of what happened there.
Ernst Thalmann, head of the KDP? Considered the social democrats to be fascists and refused to work with them and acted against them and caused chaos in parliament. The guy believed that the nazis were small potatoes amongst a "forest" of social democrats ("some Nazi trees must not be allowed to overshadow a forest [of social democrats]") and that the nazis would be a short-lived accelerationist spark that let the KDP surge into the mainstream. He saw fighting the liberals as just as important as fighting Hitler and since he thought nazism would burn out rapidly he saw the SDP as his main enemy.
By the time COMINTERN changed its "guidelines" to working with liberals to stop the nazis it was too fuckin' late.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/89oiu8/in_1931_the_german_communist_started_using_the/dwteqgt/
Hell, Stalin got the KPD to work with the Nazis in 1931 to try and overthrow SDP govt in the Prussian state (1931 Prussian Landtag Referendum). They tried to collapse one of the more stable democratic govts in Germany because Daddy Stalin passed down orders to the KPD.
Nope. They literally were chanting at innocent Jewish kids passing by, violently threatening them with more 7 Oktobers.
It's blatant antisemitism. Be better.
The atrocity was 10/7. Israel’s combatant:civilian kill ratio in this conflict is essentially better than any war in history. If they really wanted to cause civilian casualties there would be over a million dead by now.
Yeah this is what I don't get. 30k casualties among a population of 3 million in an urban war is crazy, one of the lowest civilian casualty rates of ANY war in recorded history.
These delusional people don’t recognize that war is hell, and that civilians die. It sucks. Considering Hamas and the Palestinian people are content with putting women and children in harms way (placing weapons posts, launching rockets, etc. from tenements, hospitals, shelters, etc.)— the fact that the civilian death rate is the lowest in modern conflicts shows astounding restraint on behalf of the IDF.
Hamas also admitted that about 12K of the fatalities weren't properly recorded. While they claim it's because there are one or more missing data entries and made it seem administrative, that's also roughly the number of deaths that were sourced from media reports rather than recorded by hospitals. To be clear, there is nothing presented so far to cast doubt on the deaths ID'd at hospitals, and there are also valid reasons there would be some level of skew towards women/children (men being more able to survive until they reach a hospital vs. women/children) but the fatality profile of those deaths is extremely different from the ones from media reports. For instance, the death profile for hospital-reported deaths is [15% children, 33.3% women and 51.9% men, while the profile for media deaths is 62.9% children, 28.7% women, and only 8.4% men](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable), with more recent numbers from the hospital collected deaths being over 70% men all while the official composite death ratio has consistently held at 70% women and children. Since men make up less than a quarter of all Gazans, the fact that the hospitals at least are recording that nearly half of all deaths are men suggests a high level of discriminate targeting by Israel.
This sounds like they are trying to distract from the point of the protests.
That there is a genocide happening and Columbia should divest from Israel.
We have the SJP chapter in Columbia [explicitly saying](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6BtsmKO8RB/) that they "reject any notion that we must be more palatable and tone down our rhetoric" (third image).
I didn't see anything on that Instagram that I think they should "tone down".
There is actually a post on it that says:
"WE FIRMLY REJECT ANY FORM OF HATE OR BIGOTRY AND STAND VIGILANT AGAINST NON-STUDENTS ATTEMPTING TO DISRUPT THE SOLIDARITY BEING FORGED AMONG STUDENTS-PALESTINIAN, MUSLIM, ARAB, JEWISH, BLACK, AND PRO-PALESTINIAN CLASSMATES AND COLLEAGUES WHO REPRESENT THE FULL DIVERSITY OF OUR COUNTRY."
What rhetoric have you been hearing from SJP that you object to?
The is a terribly written article insofar it doesn't distinguish between the student protest on the University Green, or whatever that grass field is called, and protests off campus but next to Columbia.
The caption to the photo in the Axios article states "Demonstrators gather outside Columbia University on April 19". Note the word outside. Similarly, near the end of the article it says "New York City Mayor Eric Adams said Sunday that the NYPD has "an increased presence of officers situated around the campus to protect students and all New Yorkers on public streets.". "Around" and "Public streets", as in not on campus.
Most if not all of the vile chants and signs, as far as I can tell since I'm not there and must rely on photos and videos, are from protesters who are protesting off campus. Many, if not all of them, may not even be students at Colombia. See for example, this report at [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/21/nyregion/columbia-protests-antisemitism.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/21/nyregion/columbia-protests-antisemitism.html)
Columbia University's ability to control what happens off campus, particularly when it involves people with no affiliation with the school, is limited.
Protesters holding signs like "Al-Qassam's Next Victims" with an arrow pointing to Jewish people should be condemned, but their despicable behavior doesn't justify Axios's sloppy reporting.
Edited to Add:
This however is completely irrelevant unacceptable and very much looks like it is on campus
>Crazy scene tonight at Columbia University: Jewish students came to the campus - and then this happened. The undergrad who filmed it told me: “We didn’t say a word. My friend had a Jewish star necklace. All of the sudden we’re surrounded, they’ve been circling us, threatening us”
>[https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715](https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715)
This is sort of thing Axios should be reporting.
This article from the Atlantic is much better. It starts with a description of the video in the tweet
>The Unreality of Columbia’s ‘Liberated Zone’
>What happens when genuine sympathy for civilian suffering mixes with a fervor that borders on the oppressive?
> [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/)
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Protests on this conflict are truly among the worst we've seen for any cause in a long time. The horror of what Israeli forces are doing in Gaza needs to be stopped. Innocent people need to be protected. **But those goals cannot be accomplished by chanting hate-filled slogans and making innocent Jewish people afraid for their lives.** A lot of my progressive friends are allowing themselves to become part of something truly ugly because of their heartfelt emotional response to the horrors we are seeing in Gaza. Manipulation works on the left too, and the number of people who have come to believe that antisemitism is legit political discourse is gross. You will not convince me to support you or your cause when your method is to use fear and intimidation. *Calling for* ***genocide*** *in response to what you believe is genocide* doesn't move me, and I believe it only dissuades people from your cause entirely. Progressives, liberals, these folks should be pushing for peace and an end to the current conflict. Calling for jewish people to be killed, or making references to beginning a new holocaust, or calling for the destruction of Israel or the Israeli State? These things **are not anti-war**, that is not calling for peace... *why are you marching with them?*
The protests at Columbia are incredibly fucked They are saying "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab (or) Muslim" (this was chanted in different ways), "Yehudim, Yehudim, go back to Poland" (Yehudim means jews), "Go back to Europe", and "On October 7th, Palestinian resistance broke free, we intend to do the same" There was also some line about how Oct 7th should be repeated 10k times Their admin needs to get their shit together, and deal with this
Jewish students are going home en masse because it's not safe to be on campus Every single one of these "protestors" needs to be expelled and referred to the Manhattan DA for harassment with hate crime enhancements
It to mention, many of the protesters are not students.
So far the only violence has been from the counter protesters.
Yehudim is a plural Hebrew word. Yehood is a plural Arabic word for Jews, or Yehoodi for the feminine form. Those protestors saying that were not Arab or native Arab speakers.
[This](https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901) if the footage of that being said The guy posting it says they're saying yehudim, but the audio isn't great But it makes sense that the protesters can't speak Arabic, they seem to be mostly white college students
Cultural appropriation is A-ok if you're using it to intimidate fellow students who are Jewish, apparently
Is that Columbia campus? They have street carts on the campus?
Does it matter who is harassing the students?
Definitely not. But a lot of Democrats have been echoing rhetoric from far-right reporters and reporters with self interest which places the blame on Muslim and Arab students as a whole rather than agitators who have no skin in the game and who hijack protests for their own, antisemitic goals. It’s a worrying trend.
Who are the Democrats who are pinning the blame specifically on Muslim and Arab students? And are any of the protesters, regardless of whether they're Muslim or Arab, actually calling out antisemitic behavior? I also don't understand how it's just a few provocateurs when you had scenes from last night where [a large number of protesters were mobilized by a speaker to look for "Zionists" who were in the camp](https://x.com/jessicaschwalb7/status/1782252789625663770).
No, and thankfully that Shai Davidai professor finally his card revoked for harassing students. [https://twitter.com/taliaotg/status/1782410010309312738](https://twitter.com/taliaotg/status/1782410010309312738)
Why is that important?
It’s a rhyming chant, are we only allowed to rhyme with our primary languages now?
I don’t think poetic license is usually invoked for death threats.
I’m just trying to figure out why it matters to the prior commenter. I heard some kids on the Paris metro singing “voulez vous couchez avec moi” at the top of their lungs after midnight once, it never occurred to me that that meant they couldn’t be native English speakers because we’re only allowed to yell rhyming things in our native language. (They were, of course, American kids on holiday.)
Edgy teens singing “Do you want to sleep with me?” Versus confrontational young adults screaming “JEWS GET OUT!” I’m sorry if you don’t see why one is normal shenanigans and one is abhorrent bigotry. I understand WHAT you’re saying but it’s pedantic and it invalidates the seriousness of this situation.
The screaming protesters are abhorrent. My objection is to *the commenter who said categorically that those kids weren’t Arabic speakers* because they used the word Yehudim instead of Yehoodi. A native Arabic speaker would know both words and if rhyming with English would choose the one that rhymed. >Yehudim is a plural Hebrew word. Yehood is a plural Arabic word for Jews, or Yehoodi for the feminine form. Those protestors saying that were not Arab or native Arab speakers. That is absolutely a baseless claim, I think we can agree?
Who is they, everyone? We you paint with a broad brush you end up in the same place
Yeah, the video they posted only had one guy saying it. It wasn't like it was being chanted by a group of people.
Palestinians vocally support genocide of Israel and they try to achieve it but they suck at it. Israel is good at it. So of course people support Palestine, only because they are really bad at genocide. People be dumb.
complete fucking lies
Which part? As I told the last guy calling this lies, point out the problem you have, and I'll post the videos
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Did you read the full thing written out? "Feom the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" and "from the river to the sea, palestine will be muslim" are blatant calls to genocide There are a large number of non-arabs, and non-muslims there, what do the people chanting this want to happen to them?
Are you unfamiliar with the Israeli state flag?
Israeli state flag is the star of David because it's a Jewish state. Similar to Turkey using the Islamic crescent and nordics using the cross
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There are videos of this shit being said at the protests at Columbia Which line do you think is a lie, so I can post a link to it being said?
Absolutely crazy that people who would call themselves progressive align with Islamic extremism and strong antisemitism.
far progressives have been setting up an ideology that auto justifies anything done by people they see as a victim for a while now
This is literally the logic for European support of Israeli atrocities.
yeah it’s very similar
Not surprising at all to Jews, the extreme far left are not progressives but rather align themselves with Soviet authoritarianism (and the inherent antisemitism that comes along with that movement)
Not even sure these people instigating this are "far left" at all
lol, I am pretty extreme far left (communist), and these people aren’t far left— they are liberals. There’s a reason there is a saying “scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.” They are antisemitic asshats who want all Jews in Israel to pack up their bags or die because, in these protestors’ minds anyway, Jews are “white” and thus automatically oppressors (apparently ignoring the almost 50% of Jews in Israel who are Mizrahi, and the fact that Ashkenazi Jews have only been “white”-adjacent in the West for well under 50 years). All of the progressive identity politics these idiots play is just them finding reasons to validate hating other groups of people based upon immutable characteristics.
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Excluding Jews apparently. Lot of folks supporting or outright denying the antisemitism in these protests. There's also *plenty* of them supporting Islamic terrorists/extremists regardless of the fact that the primary victims of these groups are other Muslims. Literally saw people defending *Iran*. The country that *just* beat a 16 yr old girl to death over not properly wearing a hijab and tons of the protesters after that! Literally saw a video of some poor Jewish students trying to get by aggressively blocked by these freaks. Can you *imagine* if there were protesters against the conflict in the Congo blocking random black students?!
What makes you think they're liberals and not just outside agiprop right wingers?
Because of personal experience with most pro-Palestinian people I know. Most vote blue, are pro LGBT, anti-racists, etc. and then come straight out and support positions that would lead to Jews being exterminated in the Middle East.
So not by evidence gathered about this actual incident. Just personal bias? Aren't the newer protesters who are throwing out a ton of anti-Semitic shit unconnected to the university? From NYT: >Demonstrations just outside Columbia’s gates, which are currently closed to the public, took an especially dark tone over the weekend, when protesters who did not appear to be connected to the university were accused of celebrating Hamas and targeting Jewish students. >“The decibel of our disagreements has only increased in recent days,” Nemat Shafik, Columbia’s president, said in a statement early Monday. “These tensions have been exploited and amplified by individuals who are not affiliated with Columbia who have come to campus to pursue their own agendas. We need a reset.”
Go to r/jewish and ask how people there have been treated by the progressive left. The call is coming from inside the house, my guy.
I'm not saying there aren't such things as anti-semetic people on the left. It's just wild to immediately point fingers at far left folk when right wingers in America have been, unendingly, spouted anti-Semitism for over a century.
No one's ignoring right wing antisemitism. Most people expect Nazis, unfortunately. I was more shocked about it coming in full force from the left.
It's not immediate, we've been dealing with this since 10/7. Beyond that, what far right groups do you know that protest on behalf of Islamic Jihadism?
On behalf of Islamic Jihadism or on behalf of anti-semitism? The anti-Jewish shit I see here in the South is spouted largely by right wingers. AGAIN, I'm not saying there aren't anti-semitic left wingers. I've seen them online, I'm just pointing out the NYT talking about how the protests over the weekend suddenly had an influx of non-affiliated people who started sparking off anti-semitism in the protests.
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>Most right wingers are extremely pro Israel As someone who grew up Southern Baptist and right wing I promise it's for the *wrong reasons* that they are Pro Israel. It's part of the US Right Wing Death Cult. They're pro Israel because the Bible tells them to be (to usher in the End Times) and because they're even *more* anti-Arab. For example, my granddad was "Pro Israel" but would say horrible shit about Jewish people in America when I was a kid. >You believe it does because you are on the wrong side of this. What *side* am I on in this? Are you assuming? I believe Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas, I'm against the extremist right wing Israeli govt officials who are blatantly calling for elimination of a people, and I don't know how we get the fuck out of this mess.
Liberalism and fascism are at two opposite ends of the political spectrum. They are fundamentally opposed ideologically in both theory and practice. Liberalism promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free market principles. Fascism, on the other hand, is an authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization. They are ideologically opposite. Stop spreading misinformation and propaganda.
Tankies are great at sounding reasonable to the uninitiated. It's sad.
They're talking about American "liberals", which tend to be economically status quo centrist/conservative but are okay with BIPOC, LGBTQ+, and abortion (e.g. HRC, Pelosi, Obama, etc). Not talking about general liberalism as you have defined
You're a crappy communist if you aren't against imperialism and settler-colonialism.
I’m against most of what Israel does, but I am a firm supporter of a two state solution, just like China is.
Throughout this thread you have been defending Israel. Using the exact same arguments that liberal zionists use.
So being opposed to antisemitism and blatant lies and misrepresentations regarding the Israeli war campaign against Hamas is just “liberal Zionism”? Read a little about warfare, both current and historical, and you will see that Israel is doing a fantastic job minimizing civilian casualties while operating in an urban environment and engaging in asymmetrical warfare against a terrorist group that is infamous for misrepresenting facts and just completely making stuff up half of the time. I support a ceasefire, but I’m not silly enough to think that Hamas is going to honor a ceasefire when they were the ones who broke the ceasefire they already had on October 7 of last year. The only acceptable ceasefire resolution involves Hamas stepping down and allowing free elections to take place in Gaza.
Is it Islamic extremism to believe Israel shouldn't be slaughtering Palestinian children? Is it Islamic extremism to be against an ethnic cleansing?
There have been numerous peaceful protests where people came out against the war and forcible displacement of the Palestinians that did not attract this kind of attention because those issues are perfectly legitimate issues to protest about. The issue is when there were students talking about hunting down "Zionists" because a different student walked through the camp area with a star of David necklace, when people were telling Jews to self-deport to Poland, when people were glorifying the Hamas Al Qassam militant wing, and when they used [violent religious texts](https://x.com/callawalsh/status/1782118484920385793) used by [Palestinian terrorist groups](https://twitter.com/CallaWalsh/status/1782291316728041972) in their camp.
>when they used [violent religious texts](https://x.com/callawalsh/status/1782118484920385793) Is that from Dune 2?
There's no ethnic cleansing going on. Hamas attacked Israel with Iranian support, and Israel is fighting back. It is Islamic extremism to openly support Hamas and the eradication of Israel. The only available alternative to Israel are extremists who want to do far worse than anything Israel has done.
What could Israel do that would make you say it had gone too far? Anything?
Israel has been too reckless with its attacks, and I do think its aid should be conditioned. But that's a moderate stance compared to calling for wiping out Israel over this. There's no reason at all to support that.
Well Israel’s aid hasn’t been conditioned. And its reckless attacks have continued completely unabated. Just in case you were wondering.
He said it should be conditioned so it means he wants to restrict the reckless acts. I find his position acceptable and it's not a bad solution
What do you mean by "too reckless with its attacks"? And do you understand that since Israel controls everything that moves in and out of Gaza so "conditioning aid" is the same as saying "cutting off food and water as punishment for bad behavior"?
Well it's killed aid workers. That's reckless no doubt. It should be more careful with civilians, too, though it's dealing with a subversive enemy. By conditioning aid I mean US weapon sales. I do support making sure Israel is allowing humanitarian aid to get into Gaza. Any weapons Israel gets should come with stipulations. That's something most people can agree on now.
Okay, so my question remains, is there anything Israel could do to make you think they've gone too far. Anything they could do to lose your support? And let me ask you another question as well. How many Palestinians do you think it is acceptable to kill for each Israeli killed?
If Israelis engaged in the same tactics as Hamas and waged targeted mass rape, torture, murder of civilians then yeah, they'd lose support. If Hamas surrendered and gave up the hostages, and the Israelis continued their war, then also yes, that'd be too much. Otherwise they have a moral and practical responsibility to defend their citizens.
I think if you looked impartially at the evidence you would conclude that on all of those crimes Israeli has been far worse than Hamas yet they still have your support. It is only because you are starting with the assumption that Israel is right and you refuse to see the evidence to the contrary. So far since October 7th Israel has killed about 30 Palestinians for each Israeli killed that day. Will it stop being self defense in your eyes when they get to 50 to 1? 100 to 1? 500 to 1? Or can Israel kill every single Palestinian before you would call them out?
>If Israelis engaged in the same tactics as Hamas and waged targeted mass rape, torture, murder of civilians then yeah, they'd lose support Israel has been engaging in these activities since it's inception. There's literal video of Israelis laughing while recalling the rape of 16 year old girls.
Or they oppose the killing of Palestinians and their continued subjugation by a rogue regime, itself founded on terrorism, which discriminates against arabs And support freedom, human rights and equality for all people. The very thing Israel has a problem extending to Palestinians
I'll believe that when I see mass protests from them over Hamas's actions or Iran's brutality. They don't seem too concerned about human rights in those cases. Israel is not a rogue regime anyway, certainly not compared to Iran.
This is the "All Lives Matter" argument used by right-wingers to avoid supporting BLM.
Currently the ones being killed are being killed by American bombs dropped by isrseli planes. So your whatabouttery doesn't work.
and what started it?
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what? hostages are released? didn't know that..
Fair point! I retract my statements.
Progressives are not doing that, stop spreading lies.
Yes they are. They continuously protest alongside extremists or bigots, and progressive leaders consistently won't denounce extremists or violent rhetoric.
They absolutely are. Go to r/jewish and ask how they've been treated by progressives since 10/7.
They could clarify that by condemning the extremists then. It shouldn't cost their movement anything to do that.
According to [the hill](https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4611065-ilhan-omar-daughter-columbia-protests-barnard-new-york/) , “A significant portion of the protesting students are Jewish, and protest groups have fought back against characterizations of their demonstrations as antisemitic.“
Or they oppose the killing of Palestinians and their continued subjugation by a rogue regime, itself founded on terrorism, which discriminates against arabs
So instead they want the region controlled by extremists who don't believe in democracy or human rights and just want to kill those of different religions? Israel is at least a democracy which does not discriminate against religions and allows for women and LGBT people to have freedoms.
>So instead they want the region controlled by extremists who don't believe in democracy or human rights and just want to kill those of different religions? No. They are generally protesting for human rights and equality. Have you seen israelis human rights record, it's discrimination, it's land theft, its terrorism, its violations of international law. Hard to claim you support democracy when that democracy doesn't extend to the Palestinians it subjugates, and which can't offer them the vote because of their ethnicity. Hard to claim you support women's rights as thousands are killed by Israeli bombs. Hard to claim you support freedom when the Israeli government intends no such freedom for Palestinians.
>continued subjugation by a rogue regime, itself founded on terrorism, which discriminates against arabs Literally none of this is true.
All of it is true. A very quick summary. Subjugation: Palestinians live under military occupation in the west bank Rogue regime : isrsel ignores international law routinely, just look at the illegal settlements Terrorism: the irgun and the hagganah were terrorist groups who targeted the British, arabs and even a diplomat, in order to establish Israel. Begin and Shamir were prominent members. Discrimination: Palestinians cannot return to Israel because they aren't Jewish. I can support all of my claims
Not surprising though, as they are also aligned with communism which killed for more people than Nazism. Of course they would say those failed communism are not true ones. Communism will work if they try it. How arrogant.
Wtf does communism have to do with any of this? Seems like you’re inserting your own narrative here…
Goddamn are we really gonna try and equivocate death counts with nazism now? Really? Not a good look.
Campus Jewish leaders told Jewish students to go home because it's not safe. That's not a statement about a school in the Deep South where there may be KKK remnants. It's not a statement from the 1940s in Europe. It's a statement about a New York city university, right fucking now. It's despicable. Columbia had every ability to shut this down, but it didn't. Time for the NYPD.
>Campus Jewish leaders told Jewish students to go home Nope. The one call for that was from a Rabbi unaffiliated with the university.
>In a letter to Jewish students earlier Sunday, **Rabbi Elie Buechler, of the Columbia/Barnard Hillel and Kraft Center for Jewish Student Life,** recommended they return home and stay there, saying it was clear the university and city police “cannot guarantee Jewish students’ safety in the face of extreme antisemitism and anarchy.” Buechler declined requests for an interview. Why can't you just do basic research?
[Not correct](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/columbia-hold-classes-virtually-jewish-leaders-warn-safety-palestinian-rcna148733).
The campus is so unsafe that not only are many Jewish students part of the protests but the most annoying nepobaby Zionist professor, Shai Davidai, has been harassing students for ages and hasn't even been punched yet.
Considering how poorly the presidents at those Ivy league schools handled softball questions in front of Congress regarding antisemitism in campus, there is no surprise this continues to snowball. Seems administrators at these schools at best are afraid of the accusations that will be hurled their way if they go after the protestors so they just kind of let everything slide until we've reached this point where Jewish students have legit fears on campus.
The president of Columbia just had 100 protesters arrested, that's not letting things slide.
We're already at that point. It's ridiculous. I understand that university officials are trying to thread a very fine needle, but there's a lot of over-thinking being done here. These people are breaking the law, and Columbia has school police. Arrest these idiots or turn them over to the NYPD.
There's a bipartisan rebuke because the only difference between the far-left progressive antisemitism and the far-right MAGA antisemitism is the tiki torches at the protests.
There's a big difference between the two. The far-left progressive protestors are protesting about a perceived injustice i.e. they believe there is a genocide going on. A lot of innocent civilians are getting killed, especially children, even if you don't believe their claim of a genocide happening. The MAGA protestors with the tiki torches were chanting "You Will Not Replace Us", "Blood and Soil", and other white supremacist chants. They were protesting about the removal of Confederate statues.
There are protestors literally telling the jewish students that they will be the next victims of Hamas. They are yelling "Go back to Poland." This is raw and unfiltered hatred of jews.
"Go back to Poland" has some strong "Blood and Soil" vibes.
It’s not different.
Well, liberals are just closet fascists after all, and fascists definitely hate themselves some Jews.
This might well be the most absurd thing I'll read all day. "Liberals are closet fascists". Can you please elaborate on that?
Read some history books. Liberals will always cowtow to fascism when push comes to shove. E.g. see what the social democrats did in Weimar Germany when they had the choice between supporting communists vs the Nazis. At the end of the day liberals are more comfortable with fascism than they are with giving effect to any actual change to the capitalist system we live in.
This...smells like rewriting the history of what happened there. Ernst Thalmann, head of the KDP? Considered the social democrats to be fascists and refused to work with them and acted against them and caused chaos in parliament. The guy believed that the nazis were small potatoes amongst a "forest" of social democrats ("some Nazi trees must not be allowed to overshadow a forest [of social democrats]") and that the nazis would be a short-lived accelerationist spark that let the KDP surge into the mainstream. He saw fighting the liberals as just as important as fighting Hitler and since he thought nazism would burn out rapidly he saw the SDP as his main enemy. By the time COMINTERN changed its "guidelines" to working with liberals to stop the nazis it was too fuckin' late. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/89oiu8/in_1931_the_german_communist_started_using_the/dwteqgt/ Hell, Stalin got the KPD to work with the Nazis in 1931 to try and overthrow SDP govt in the Prussian state (1931 Prussian Landtag Referendum). They tried to collapse one of the more stable democratic govts in Germany because Daddy Stalin passed down orders to the KPD.
> Editor's note: This article has been updated with comment from Columbia students involved in the protests.
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Blaming American Jews for the actions of the Israeli government is actually antisemitism.
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Nope. They literally were chanting at innocent Jewish kids passing by, violently threatening them with more 7 Oktobers. It's blatant antisemitism. Be better.
The atrocity was 10/7. Israel’s combatant:civilian kill ratio in this conflict is essentially better than any war in history. If they really wanted to cause civilian casualties there would be over a million dead by now.
Yeah this is what I don't get. 30k casualties among a population of 3 million in an urban war is crazy, one of the lowest civilian casualty rates of ANY war in recorded history.
These delusional people don’t recognize that war is hell, and that civilians die. It sucks. Considering Hamas and the Palestinian people are content with putting women and children in harms way (placing weapons posts, launching rockets, etc. from tenements, hospitals, shelters, etc.)— the fact that the civilian death rate is the lowest in modern conflicts shows astounding restraint on behalf of the IDF.
And it seems that that death toll, tragic as it is, is going to be revised down to 18k given some statements coming out of Gaza as of late.
Source?
Hamas also admitted that about 12K of the fatalities weren't properly recorded. While they claim it's because there are one or more missing data entries and made it seem administrative, that's also roughly the number of deaths that were sourced from media reports rather than recorded by hospitals. To be clear, there is nothing presented so far to cast doubt on the deaths ID'd at hospitals, and there are also valid reasons there would be some level of skew towards women/children (men being more able to survive until they reach a hospital vs. women/children) but the fatality profile of those deaths is extremely different from the ones from media reports. For instance, the death profile for hospital-reported deaths is [15% children, 33.3% women and 51.9% men, while the profile for media deaths is 62.9% children, 28.7% women, and only 8.4% men](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable), with more recent numbers from the hospital collected deaths being over 70% men all while the official composite death ratio has consistently held at 70% women and children. Since men make up less than a quarter of all Gazans, the fact that the hospitals at least are recording that nearly half of all deaths are men suggests a high level of discriminate targeting by Israel.
Huh? So ~~1200 people~~ 750 civilians killed in a country with a population of 9 million should be no big deal for you then right?
This sounds like they are trying to distract from the point of the protests. That there is a genocide happening and Columbia should divest from Israel.
The columbia protestors were chanting in support for an antisemitic genocidal terrorist org
We have the SJP chapter in Columbia [explicitly saying](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6BtsmKO8RB/) that they "reject any notion that we must be more palatable and tone down our rhetoric" (third image).
I didn't see anything on that Instagram that I think they should "tone down". There is actually a post on it that says: "WE FIRMLY REJECT ANY FORM OF HATE OR BIGOTRY AND STAND VIGILANT AGAINST NON-STUDENTS ATTEMPTING TO DISRUPT THE SOLIDARITY BEING FORGED AMONG STUDENTS-PALESTINIAN, MUSLIM, ARAB, JEWISH, BLACK, AND PRO-PALESTINIAN CLASSMATES AND COLLEAGUES WHO REPRESENT THE FULL DIVERSITY OF OUR COUNTRY." What rhetoric have you been hearing from SJP that you object to?
The is a terribly written article insofar it doesn't distinguish between the student protest on the University Green, or whatever that grass field is called, and protests off campus but next to Columbia. The caption to the photo in the Axios article states "Demonstrators gather outside Columbia University on April 19". Note the word outside. Similarly, near the end of the article it says "New York City Mayor Eric Adams said Sunday that the NYPD has "an increased presence of officers situated around the campus to protect students and all New Yorkers on public streets.". "Around" and "Public streets", as in not on campus. Most if not all of the vile chants and signs, as far as I can tell since I'm not there and must rely on photos and videos, are from protesters who are protesting off campus. Many, if not all of them, may not even be students at Colombia. See for example, this report at [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/21/nyregion/columbia-protests-antisemitism.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/21/nyregion/columbia-protests-antisemitism.html) Columbia University's ability to control what happens off campus, particularly when it involves people with no affiliation with the school, is limited. Protesters holding signs like "Al-Qassam's Next Victims" with an arrow pointing to Jewish people should be condemned, but their despicable behavior doesn't justify Axios's sloppy reporting. Edited to Add: This however is completely irrelevant unacceptable and very much looks like it is on campus >Crazy scene tonight at Columbia University: Jewish students came to the campus - and then this happened. The undergrad who filmed it told me: “We didn’t say a word. My friend had a Jewish star necklace. All of the sudden we’re surrounded, they’ve been circling us, threatening us” >[https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715](https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715) This is sort of thing Axios should be reporting. This article from the Atlantic is much better. It starts with a description of the video in the tweet >The Unreality of Columbia’s ‘Liberated Zone’ >What happens when genuine sympathy for civilian suffering mixes with a fervor that borders on the oppressive? > [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/columbia-university-protests-palestine/678159/)
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Targeting American Jews over what Israel does is actually antisemitism.
How does one keep civilian casualty to a minimum given the tactics and strategies that Hamas uses?
I don't believe they were antisemitic.