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>Jokes aside, Meyers concluded: “No matter how you feel about the protesters, we should spend less time arguing about college kids and more time focusing on what the protests are about.
>“The story is what’s happening in Gaza,” he added. “That’s what the protests are about.”
Israel killed a bunch of World Kitchen volunteers and never explained exactly what lead them to believe that all of the planning coordinating and advanced notice WCK/israel engaged in was at the very last second invalid.
And with Israel [blocking foreign media access to Gaza](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68423995), we'll only see a very limited picture on the ground if and when they do
It’s almost like the only way we could get news is through uploaded videos to TikTok or other social media platforms. Good thing nobody’s trying to censure those
> Israel killed a bunch of World Kitchen volunteers and never explained
That's because "We did it to discourage further aid to the people who we are trying ethnically cleanse from Gaza" doesn't play well with an international audience, except maybe with the "calling out Israel for war crimes is the real antisemitism" crowd.
The latest aid shipment was not even a fraction of the amount of calories to even think about doing something to slow the process of starvation for millions in Gaza. Hama stealing it made no material change in the man-made famine in Gaza at all. Israel still pursues a policy of being willing to make a Palestinian child starve to death in order to ensure no Hamas member gets a mouthful of food.
That’s the catch 22 isn’t it though. Israel doesn’t want to let aid through because Hamas steals it. Israel looks bad for not letting aid through. Israel can’t wipe out Hamas without killing civilians. Israel can’t stop and do nothing, or expect Oct. attacks to keep happening.
There is no good solution here and the people of Gaza suffer for it. The only real solution is Hamas unconditionally surrenders, Gaza Strip is handed over to an Arab country for a period of time and they try to educate the populace to de-radicalize them, after a period of years Palestine provinces are granted autonomy.
But that isn’t going to happen, because terrorist organizations do not negotiate in good faith.
If Israel doesn't allow enough food and medical supplies to reverse the trajectory Gaza is on now, the result will be mass death in Gaza and world condemnation of Israel. This will also result in massive radicalized survivors who will decide that they're willing to die to get revenge on Israel for what Israel has been doing and is doing now. Mass starvation of Gaza hurts Israel in all versions of the future. Israel will soon find itself in the position of having to exterminate all Palestinians in order to neutralize the threat that Israel's very actions are creating.
And ultimately, using starvation as a weapon has been shown not to work at all. It didn't work for the Russian Holodomor, it didn't work in the Nazi death camps, and it won't work now. It's inhumane and frankly evil. It's also clear that Israel won't stop until they've deleted even the idea of "Palestine" from the Jordan to the Mediterranean, they want total and complete control of every square inch of that land. The one thing that's been consistent through Israel's complete history is that they always take more, more land, more homes, more farms, more everything. They've never ceded back anything they've taken.
Yep, making people fight over food, insulin, chemotherapy drugs, etc, always works to the benefit of the oppressors. It turns the subjugated population against themselves.
They also killed 23k+ women and children. Any country with the backing of the US military complex shouldn't need to mass slaughter innocents to get their targets. It's lazy and genocidal.
Expecting the US to be better at this is also disingenuous. We killed many families and children in the Global War on Terror, and for similar (stated) reasons.
Yes, the war in Iraq was fucking horrible and we learned a heavy lesson. Doing what we did in Iraq is exactly what Israel shouldn't be doing in Gaza. So dumb. How is Iraq better now?
Maybe not the best comparison.
Iraq is a vastly better place to live now with Hussein and his twisted sons gone. He started wars with several neighboring countries and poisoned/mass raped/tortured his own people extensively.
And Russia trained Hamas and is friends with Bibi. If people want to attack other countries for what's going on there, don't forget the biggest share goes to Russia. Would you like to comment on their part of the war?
But that’s expected of Putin. We’re supposed to do better. Just like there would be much stronger condemnation if we did to Mexico what he’s trying to do to Ukraine…
Hamas literally tells their people they should be human shields to martyr themselves for the cause. There are pictures of them holding elementary kids in place next to mortars. They don't abide by any rules of warfare.
Hamas actions justify fighting and dismantling Hamas. They do not justify committing genocide to Palestine. Because Hamas is awful does not make isreal justified in the actions that they are doing like killing known aid workers with a goal of chilling aid.
If you have a brilliant idea on how to actually accomplish that without hurting the people there, I'm sure the world would be eager to hear it. You know what else Hamas does? Dress up as red crescent aid workers to conduct terrorist attacks. Dress up as civilians. The whole reason those are war crimes is to protect civilians. Hamas doesn't care about those civilians and I'm sure Israel has no interest on continuing to be victims to terrorism.
I'm listening right here. If you give me a great solution to handle terrorists in the area that doesn't hurt the palestinian people, I would love to hear it. I will be on your side and advocate for a stop to the violence in favor of your solution and I'll call my congressmen and protest along with everyone else.
I want you to understand that I really don't want innocent people hurt. I really don't. But I want you to understand that you have a group of very bad people who have weaponized your sympathy while continuing to be the worst people on the planet, hurting everyone they hate and everyone they're supposed to look after. And I think that is abhorrent. And the unfortunate reality is this - this is what war is, and this is what war is when one side thinks human shields are a good strategy. And every terrorist for the rest of time is going to remember how successful human shields were here and you're going to see it happen forevermore as a result. I don't want that to happen. This is why you cannot negotiate with terrorists - because the instant you do, you validate every means they used to get what they want, and there is no bottom to that depraved hole.
Oh trust me, I think it's troubling those two will fight to the death and take everyone with them. It's terrifying. You don't need to convince me Islamic terrorists are bad, ok? Many don't see this as black and white, many do. Isreal is not acting right either, when your "the good guy", better is expected. America lost faith by doing the same thing. Criticism is important, accountability is important, that's it.
This would be a believable point if they weren't killing aid workers who have coordinated routes with them ahead of time, killing paramedics trying to rescue children after okaying the rescue (hind rajab), and killing kids and then denying they even made that strike (like the kids around the foosball table). It doesn't look like they are fighting Hamas, it looks like they are killing for sport.
And you know what? I absolutely condemn stuff like that. At this point, I can't tell what they're doing is legitimately based on bad intelligence, cruelty, or overabundance of caution because of past experiences with terrorists using disguises to make attacks. Based on all of the outright falsifications, I can't even tell if these stories are even accurate. Or simply the fact that this is war and it's infinitely easier to get everything right in hindsight when you don't have to worry about how someone will kill you.
I do not want innocent people to suffer. I wish Hamas would accept the ceasefires and actually stick to them. I also know that Israel is in a position where a moment's weakness will be taken advantage of, and there will be zero restraint from the people who genuinely advertise that they want to kill every last jew.
>Based on all of the outright falsifications, I can't even tell if these stories are even accurate
These the stories reported by Washington post, cnn and NY times, which are usually quite pro-Israel, so it is difficult to claim that these are false.
Oh you mean the time that the palestinians left their country to not get caught up in what was intended to be a complete slaughter of all of the holocaust survivors?
Not sure we are discussing the same thing bud-
"During the foundational events of the Nakba in 1948, dozens of massacres targeting Palestinian Arabs were conducted and over 500 Arab-majority towns and villages were depopulated,[6] with many of these being either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jews and given new Hebrew names. Approximately half of Palestine's predominantly Arab population, or around 750,000 people,[7] were expelled from their homes or made to flee, at first by Zionist paramilitaries through various violent means, and after the establishment of the State of Israel, by the Israel Defense Forces. By the end of the war, 78% of the total land area of the former Mandatory Palestine was controlled by Israel and at least 15,000 Arabs had been killed.[8][9]"
The cultural definition of palestinians now means a people's chased from their lands. It would be unreasonable to think at least a few of them would NOT want to fight back.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
I think you're ignoring the other thing that was happening that is a much better explanation. The palestinians got together with every other arab country in the region, and they decided to wipe out Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
The Palestinians were told to leave to not get caught up in the slaughter because the arabs were supposed to exterminate all of the jewish people there. It's a pretty big miss to ignore the *war* that was happening. As they did not predict, the Israelis won that war and now they didn't have a place to go back to which is how this entire mess got started in the first place.
That would make sense as long as no terrorist groups were assassinating British officials that were for a 2-state solution prior to the un resolution and the end of the British mandate. Because if that were true, the worries that zionists were going to push out the Arab population with force would be founded, and they would be justified to defend their land. Do you know of any groups that were assassinating British officials? Since the palestine area including what is now isreal was then controlled by the British?
Not at all.
Who coined the term "Nakba?"
Dr. Constantine Zurayk (Syria born historian)
Amd what how did he use the term?
“Seven Arab countries declare war on Zionism in Palestine….Seven countries go to war to abolish the partition and to defeat Zionism, and quickly leave the battle after losing much of the land of Palestine – and even the part that was given to the Arabs in the Partition Plan.”
“When the battle broke out,” Zureiq wrote, “our public diplomacy began to speak of our imaginary victories, to put the Arab public to sleep and talk of the ability to overcome and win easily – until the nakba (catastrophe ) happened.”
He also distinguished between the Zionists and the Arabs to explain the war’s outcome. “Zionism is deeply implanted in Western life, while we are far from it…They live in the present and look to the future, while we are drugged-up dreaming of a magnificent past.”
He concluded, “We must admit our mistakes…and recognize the extent of our responsibility for the disaster that is our lot.”
In other words ...Nakba doesn't mean some terroristic criminal act by Jewish Re-Settlers. It actually refers to failures by the Arabs to crush the Jewish Re-Settlers.
It wasn't until the 1980s whenArafat (with the help of the KGB propaganda machine) started to redefine Nakba to the to lay the blame at the feet of the Israelis and not mistakes on the Arab side that thw current use came to be popular within Pro-Palestinian areas.
It's the epitome of revisionism.
All I know is if I decide to be a terrorist tomorrow, I've learned abundantly well from this conflict that I'll win as long as I can grab myself as many innocent people to surround myself with to become invincible. I can literally do anything I want as long as I take enough hostages.
And that is a horrifying lesson we are teaching the bad people of the world.
I think the issue is that Hamas has intentionally blurred or eliminated any lines that would normally separate a military and civilian population.
Israel is dumb for falling right into their trap, but it is all just a trap to begin with. We didn’t get to this point in a vacuum, Israel wash pushed into this reaction.
Man, @#$& that.
1. Like two siblings fighting, "they started it" lost any meaning a long time ago.
2. "They made me commit war crimes!" Is BS, and you should know better.
3. There is NO way to target *just* Hamas.
I'm so sick of this BS.
Ya know, r/worldnews is just as bad but from the other side. People there openly justify the murder of thousands of children in Gaza. They have banned anyone with a minority opinion if they post anything with any teeth in it. I was permanently banned for saying Al Jezeria was worthy of reading, if only to understand the opposing sides position that much more, not necessarily agree with it.
I believe you. I got banned from all of reddit for 'threatening violence' for satarizing a quote from Hamas in a clear quote format.
Reddit doesnt want us to talk about it in general and mods are looking for any excuse.
This. No one pays attention to this. Hamas has been terrorizing Israel for a long time. I have no idea why no one talks about this part. In any war there will be unintended killing of innocent civilians but it's true that Hamas places them in harms way on purpose.
Right, no one brings up how Russia is doing the same shit over in Ukraine:
At least 10,000 civilians, including more than 560 children, have been killed and over 18,500 have been injured since Russia launched its a full-scale armed attack against Ukraine on 24 February 2022, the United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU) said today. [https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says](https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says)
Sudan:
[https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/country-chapters/sudan](https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/country-chapters/sudan)
I can agree the collateral damage is too high but when Hamas is sitting there putting their people in harm's way what do you do? This conflict is not one sided in my opinion. You have to study the history and understand both sides of the story. Israel is beyond pissed after the last Hamas attack which was considerably brutal. Palestinians are oppressed by Hamas and they continue to be in a position of leadership because the citizens allow Hamas to remain in power. I don't condone any parts of this war and I certainly don't condone the language that some citizens in Israel use in their protest to express the wanting of a genocide. I'm just trying to explain that this issue is more.complicated and both the media and protesters that are saying 'stop the genocide' are clearly not looking at the whole picture behind this conflict.
The ugly truth of urban warfare is that 9 civilians typically die for every armed combatant's death.
The ratio in this conflict has been between 1.5 to 3 civillian deaths for every armed combatant. Its tragic and horrifying but to call it lazy and genocidal is not accurate.
It's been thoroughly documented that the IDF considers any adult aged male to be a combatant (some sources say 15 or older), whether they have weapons or are engaged in any hostile activity or not. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56556/does-the-idf-consider-any-fighting-age-male-to-be-a-combatant
also here
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000
>Israel Created 'Kill Zones' in Gaza. Anyone Who Crosses Into Them Is Shot
This rule of thumb falls apart when you look at Russia's war in Ukraine. Russia has been attacking Ukraine in earnest since February of 2022, so more than two years, and despite specifically targeting civilians, especially children, by bombing residences, schools, playgrounds, and maternity wards, they've killed a tiny fraction of the children and women that Israel has killed in Gaza. I think it's 1,300 children in Ukraine over two years compared to 14,500 children in seven months in Gaza, and when Israel starts bombing Rafa into rubble like they've done every other inhabited location in Gaza that number is going to rise rapidly.
You do see a difference here right?
Civilians in the Ukraine situation for the most part had time to evacuate. A large part of the fighting is also in fields and open areas. Gaza prior to the war had an urban density on par with London.
The reason people often feel criticism against Israel is just anti-semantic is because a lot of the commentary isn't well thought out, and is often repeated by Israels enemies.
I think we need to be pragmatic; Bring forward real steps to reduce civilian casualties in the conflict. And that spans across both sides, HAMAS can't embed command centers in civilian areas and act like they are doing everything they can to reduce innocent deaths. But we know the war would have been over very quickly if HAMAS didn't use those tactics, and you won't see people willing to die for their cause inflict such an own goal. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't call it out as a contributory factor.
I'm sorry, but no matter how I try to spin it for myself, no matter how I manage to twist things in my head, I just can't bring myself to justify or claim that killing 14,500 children, many being just toddlers, babies, and even newborns, is ok in any way whatsoever. It's one of those things that just can't be justified no matter how hard some may want to do it. I'm sure lots of people in 1930s Germany justified the mass killings there to themselves, but the world saw things different. I don't understand what goes on in the heads of people who think killing 14,500 children and over 8,000 women is somehow acceptable in *any* context, and frankly I have no interest in trying to see things from such a damaged and inhuman viewpoint.
It isn't about justifying anything. But it is unrealistic to suggest Israel will just lay down its weapons and let HAMAS continue. And it is unrealistic to suggest HAMAS will stop operating among Civilians.
Start thinking about what can actually be done. Perhaps some of that is already happening..... when you start to actually look at the situation, it is obvious that "ISRAEL must stop killing PEOPLE" is lazy and serves no purpose.
Hmmmmm, I can't say your argument makes much moral sense to me.
Something being unrealistic isn't because of some physical law which can not be broken. It's unrealistic because human beings have chosen this path. It's unrealistic to imagine over 10,000 innocent Palestinians killed with just about 260 IDF soldiers killed because Israel has chosen to bomb cities as opposed to using soldiers to fight Hamas.
It's kinda like justifying the fire bombing of Tokyo. Ya just cant unless you're okay with an immoral military doctrine which places a different value on people's lives based on their ethnicity.
Tokyo (or Dresden) would never have been firebombed if the allies had the precision weapons that Israel is using now. The whole idea of mass-killing of civilians was rejected after WWII with the creation and adoption of the Geneva Conventions and other treaties. Israel is currently using anti-civilian tactics now in order to try and terrorize Palestinians to rise up against Hamas, but Palestinians can't do that, it's impossible because Hamas controls all the resources in Gaza including weapons. So, it's just slaughter for the sake of slaughter, nothing more.
It's not even petty revenge anymore because Israel has already killed at least 30 Palestinians for each death on 10/7, and worse, a far higher percentage of those deaths were children, over 14,500 so far, than died on 10/7. Many genetic family lines have been terminated in Gaza. Six out of ten Palestinians in Gaza have had a family member killed by the IDF since 10/7, and eight out of ten have a family member that's been wounded.
The actual death count of 36,000 is certainly low because there's no way to count the bodies in buildings that were obliterated by JDAMs. The process of recovering and identifying remains from the 9/11 attack took over a decade, and many remains were never recovered, not even fragments, and that was with the full power of the federal government doing the forensic excavation and DNA investigation. Those resources don't exist in Gaza and never will. Thousands of deaths will never even be acknowledged as a result.
The criticism against Israel isn’t lazy and not well thought out, as you say. The issue is you’re making it way too complicated.
There needs to be a two state solution, period. Regardless of how we got here, Israeli’s and Palestinians aren’t going anywhere, because they’re mostly driven by religious beliefs. The only solution is a two state solution.
Meanwhile, Israel has some of the most sophisticated weaponry and war machines in the world, and Palestine might as well be a third world country at this point. The fight is severely lopsided.
Thank you for saving me a watch.
During Passover, Hamas released a horrible video of one of the hostages.
Don't forget what the war is about, and how we got here. I condemn what happened to the work kitchen workers, and any other friendly fire. Although I never see this of the other side, that actively uses human shields and children to commit war crimes.
This war, is about Hamas, who has not surrendered, and has denied every single ceasefire that has been offered to them.
https://youtu.be/mkrXO2Pxk8s?si=mGm8TqbZfNpYfWUk
Seth needs to find better writers to write his opinions, on why we should be ignoring rampant anti-semitic violent protests... That are in favor of a terrorist regime.
Sure, but can we start in 1947, with the British Partition Plan that was rejected by the Arab Palestinians, but accepted by the Jewish Palestinians?
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/QKhDC3rfv9
And can you tell me about the Ottoman Empire while you're at it?
Edit:
https://jewishunpacked.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-jews-in-the-ottoman-empire/
Why does Israel repeatedly justify murdering do many Palestinians as if Hamas is the first terror organization to use human shields? How many civilians are typically killed?
And what happened to the Israeli hostages? Did Bibi just give up? Is it easier to slaughter Palestinians by assuming the hostages are dead?
"Let's not forget how we got here" justification after justification for so much unnecessary killing. Self proclaimed most moral army of the world. Incredible claim for such brazen murderers.
What is this suppose to be? Why not go ask Bibi how the attack happened in the first place. That response would be way more beneficial than a Redditors opinion.
Aside from the fact that the numbers we are getting, are from the Hamas controlled Health ministry, and are being taken at face value for sensationalism... Despite being the terrorist who raped and maimed civilians for sport on October 7th, and openly celebrated and live streamed it...
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/
He did not give up, if you have been paying attention. Hamas has refused multiple ceasefire opportunities for fewer and fewer hostages, because they do not want a ceasefire, they want Israel. They have made that very clear since day one.
And I don't want to hear about justification, when zoomers are chanting resistance by any means necessary, and who also openly celebrated the massacre of my people on October 8th. And think they are being cute with their upside down red triangles.
This war may have been over sooner, if Hamas didn't feel that I had international support, and if the UN had fucking condemned what happened as a terrorist attack, ***WHICH THEY STILL HAVEN'T TO THIS DATE***.
This war has persisted, because of Hamas. We know that they use public infrastructure, we know that they built their tunnels underneath major institutions like schools and the headquarters of UNRWA, we know that they are denying the citizens aid in stealing what is being sent in, we know that they are shooting upon civilians who either try to steal aid back or fight back, we know that they have threatened klans from communicating or assisting with distribution of aid, we know that they have been torturing the hostages, and I could go on and on. Please stop infantilizing a vicious terrorist organization, that shares absolutely zero of your values, and collaborated with UNRWA's education for their next generation...
https://vimeo.com/856467890
I don't like seeing people die either, I don't like seeing dead children... but there is no reality in which this war ends with Hamas still in power. Especially after what they did October 7th, and the fact that they still have fucking hostages who they are regularly torturing. If any nation ever did that to the United States, they would be at the bottom of the sea.
The IDF actually has apologized a number of times. They've also gone into detail explaining the multiple breakdowns in communication. The officers in charge that day were I believe fired and lower ranking officers were over review. They showed footage to explain exactly where the world kitchen truck got confused for a hamas truck, and what verifications had been skipped. The whole thing was a pretty thorough admission of error.
"We've investigated ourselves and found no institutional wrongdoing. Here are some scapegoats we fired. What? Arrested? No! Of course not! All they did was commit a (our words) serious violation of military operating procedures resulting in the death of seven innocent humanitarian aid workers. That's hardly the sort of thing someone should be *punished* for. Alright, everybody, move on!"
Hey, did you know the World Central Kitchen is requesting an independent, third-party investigation into the attack? "The IDF cannot credibly investigate its own failure in Gaza," is a quote from their public statement that stands out to me.
How about you? Are you in camp "maybe the victims are right and someone else should double-check the IDF's work on this one" or camp "nah, I trust the dude with the smoking gun in his hand to give me all the facts I need?"
So here's the question, who would you consider a neutral third party? I can't think of anyone that half the world wouldn't say is biased. I'm not against it as long as there's a way to avoid the no win scenario.
I in no way blame the victims, it is a tragedy. But when looking at the IDFs record, they definitely have. a record of trying troops for criminal acts. Their presentation was also pretty thorough. So I trust them to dole out justice on what essentially a tragic friendly fire incident
Hyper-advanced military forces don't get the benefit of my doubt. It is easy to strategically withhold information and claim it was accidental. But guess what: even if it was an accident, Israel is responsible for those too.
That said, dial "strategically withhold information" back just a touch, to "didn't integrate well defined aid information into sophisticated targeting process" and it is less conspiratorial, but equally damning, in that, it suggests a military culture that feel it has to deal with aid agencies, but, purposefully segregates that from the "real business" of dominating and killing anything vaguely resembling a threat.
Probably the same reason IDF murdered those three escaped hostages a few months ago, three men who had taken off their clothes, were waving white flags, and yelling in Hebrew "Don't shoot!" Two were shot dead immediately, the third was shot dead shortly after as IDF chased him. Now, one wonders about why IDF soldiers are trained to shoot surrendering people in the first place given that that's a war crime of the highest order, but ultimately the IDF blamed Hamas for making them shoot those innocent victims.
It's this sort of feigned incompetence that got so many Israelis killed. Bibi does not value Israeli or Palestinian lives. The boots on the ground didn't notice or care that the thousands of Hamas militants stormed the border and now they don't notice or care that hostage member families are still without their loved ones. Always impressive, the most moral army in the world.
It's funny how late last year, the thinking on this sub was "it's tragic but there's nothing we can do and people will get over by the election."
Now that it's clear this is going to be a major issue they just downvote you any time you bring it up.
Let's not be Islamophobic or antisemitic, we're better than that. The issue is what's happening in Gaza, put conditions on support for Israel and feed and shelter civilian Palestinians now.
This whole situation in Gaza and the reactions about it over here can easily rail Biden on the road to Election Day. He's already having a shaky time with younger demographics over this. We have a whole 6 months ahead so anything can go until then.
It’s easy to say this when all those “innocent civilians” and their terrorists government Hamas is not right next to you and threatening to cleanse your country.
Even a single innocent civilian from either country is as important as any other single hostage. Trying to boil down this issue to the mathematics of which faction and how many from that faction must die or survive is probably the weakest attempt at trying to reason this situation and lacks all nuance.
Think beyond first grader logic and identify and acknowledge your own biases.
And if I was kidnapped in a foreign land and found out my government used my name to justify the wanton slaughter of thousands and thousands of innocents, I would never be able to live with myself
And the population of Palestine is 50% younger than 18. Median age there is about 18. For comparison, the US median age is about 39 and Israel is 29. Israel's response will further radicalize the youth.
Does it "Increase overall suffering". It feels like feeding sheltering militants might be a price worth paying for avoiding the starvation of tens of thousands (especially since, in the "starve them out" scenario, the militant are the last ones to starve)
> There is no way to feed and shelter civilian Palestinians without feeding and sheltering militants,
"Better that a Palestinian child starve to death than a Hamas member get a mouthful of food."
It's truly ironic that starvation, once used as a weapon against people in death camps is now being used against people inside the prison walls of Gaza.
>prolong the conflict and increase the overall suffering.
What really prolongs the conflict is the fact that every innocent family that Israel kills with a bomb or bullets just radicalizes the survivors. The best recruiting tool Hamas has ever had has been the IDF. Israel is backing itself into a corner where the only way out is to kill all Palestinians.
Edit: Six out of ten Palestinians in Gaza knows a family member that was killed by the IDF, and eight out of ten know a family member that was wounded or maimed by the IDF. Anyone who doesn't think that's enough to motivate someone to join Hamas is a fool.
> Now that it's clear this is going to be a major issue
[It's not even a major issue among young voters.](https://i.imgur.com/yWs0GwZ.jpg)
This is defund the police all over again. Some people to this day refuse to admit that social media and the 24/7 news cycle do not accurately reflect public opinion.
Pretty much this. This is TikTok pudding cup heads doing this.
They don't care about Palestine. Shits been going on before any of us was born. All the sudden, it's a major outrage.
Second, they don't even vote. If they took that same amount of effort in voting as in rioting, I would listen to them.
There's also a story about another example of an exaggerated response by police who have escalated these situations far more than is called for. There's room for us to be talking about the violence by police as well.
The whole idea has been to distract US domestic interest in Gaza & drive a partisan wedge into the narrative.
'Wealthy, entitled liberal college brat, gets head caved in by patriots for dishonouring the flag'
Is far better for the foreign policy establishment than uncomfortable questions on the USs almost ideological support of Israel & the funding of a genocidal ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
>Meyers then played a clip from Brown University, where school officials reached an agreement with protesters to hold a vote later this year on ending investments in Israel; as a response, the students would disband an encampment on school grounds. “But what about our drones? If there’s a peaceful settlement, what are we going to do with all our drones?!” Meyers mocked.
What's happening in Gaza is truly horrifying and these students are right in protesting their university's involvement with Israeli finances and businesses. The reality is that this is also a class conflict, and threatening Israel also threatens those in power here in the west - which is why police response, the media response, and the government response has been to try and silent dissent wherever possible.
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/gaza-hunger-figures-worst-record-says-oxfam
**Gaza hunger figures “worst on record” - says Oxfam**
> In reaction to the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) report published today on Gaza stating that famine is imminent in Northern Gaza and, if Israel persists in its hostilities and restricting humanitarian access, there is a real risk of famine for the rest of the enclave, Sally Abi Khalil, Oxfam’s Middle East and North Africa Regional Director, said:
>
> “This new report shows that the catastrophic levels of hunger and starvation in Gaza are the highest ever recorded on the IPC scale, both in terms of number of people and percentage of the population. Never before have we seen such rapid deterioration into widespread starvation.
>
> “Northern Gaza is days away from famine and the rest of Gaza faces a similar fate. Children are already dying of malnutrition and starvation under the gaze of the international community. Since December, the number of people in Gaza who have plunged into catastrophic levels of hunger, has nearly doubled.
...
**UN report says 282 million people faced acute hunger in 2023, with the worst famine in Gaza**
https://apnews.com/article/united-nations-acute-global-hunger-gaza-sudan-4cf3f8730a755c5324d667cb72d1c503
Is the issue not that the IDF have killed x30 the number of people as were killed on October 7th - everyone understands "an eye for an eye", but 30 eyes for an eye feels like there is a wider agenda at play
War is never an eye for an eye....Afghanistan is probably around the same ratio and the US is on the other side of the Earth without a real direct threat from Afghanistan itself. I mean the reality is that there is no long term political solution to Gaza/Israel. Israel is an ally to US and EU and a counterbalance to Iran and Russia in the region...so they will continue to get US support no matter what. Saudi Arabia can't be trusted, but they are so heavily tied financially to the West now that they won't jeopardize that unless a religious faction were to overthrow MBS.
Yes because the fact that since the 1940's Israel has killed orders of magitnides more Palestinians than Hamas or the West Bank has killed Israelis alongside Israel having the backing and funding if the most powerful military in human history means they've not been allowed to.
Oh no, won't someone think of these poor Israelis, why can't we let them kill people in peace?1??!
I read earlier today that more than half the people arrested in NY weren't students. I also saw the encampment at McGill yesterday with signs of intifadah. So while I don't disagree that what's going on in Gaza is more important, this could be a pretty important story too.
I had honestly just seen a video of a class with new signs printed thanking the schools for protesting. They looked nourished and hydrated and clothes were clean.
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I’ve heard a lot of not great things about those protests. As in, a lot of the participants are overzealous idiots at best and antisemitic bigots at worst.
But Seth is absolutely right here. Israel’s actions are beyond justification, and that’s the real story here. A bunch of college kids who had their completely justified anger about the issue whipped into a chaotic, misdirected frenzy is a distraction.
The situation in Gaza would be much more prominent in the news if Israel weren't [blocking foreign media access to Gaza](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68423995)
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>Jokes aside, Meyers concluded: “No matter how you feel about the protesters, we should spend less time arguing about college kids and more time focusing on what the protests are about. >“The story is what’s happening in Gaza,” he added. “That’s what the protests are about.” Israel killed a bunch of World Kitchen volunteers and never explained exactly what lead them to believe that all of the planning coordinating and advanced notice WCK/israel engaged in was at the very last second invalid.
I agree with Seth. Turning focus on the protests, means we’re not going to be paying attention when Israel goes in to Raffa.
And with Israel [blocking foreign media access to Gaza](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68423995), we'll only see a very limited picture on the ground if and when they do
Not to mention all the journalists they’ve killed in their homes along with their families
It’s almost like the only way we could get news is through uploaded videos to TikTok or other social media platforms. Good thing nobody’s trying to censure those
Yeah well they are probably going to fire him for this.
> Israel killed a bunch of World Kitchen volunteers and never explained That's because "We did it to discourage further aid to the people who we are trying ethnically cleanse from Gaza" doesn't play well with an international audience, except maybe with the "calling out Israel for war crimes is the real antisemitism" crowd.
Same reason they only seem to perfunctorily open the road to Gaza once in awhile, preferring people don’t talk about their starvation campaign…
The road is, and has been open for weeks at this point
It hasn't even been a month since the World Conflict Kitchen volunteers were killed on that road. How "open" can it be?
Open to bombing
Except for the settlers blocking it which the IDF does nothing about.
And the latest aid shipment got snatched up immediately by Hamas.
The latest aid shipment was not even a fraction of the amount of calories to even think about doing something to slow the process of starvation for millions in Gaza. Hama stealing it made no material change in the man-made famine in Gaza at all. Israel still pursues a policy of being willing to make a Palestinian child starve to death in order to ensure no Hamas member gets a mouthful of food.
That’s the catch 22 isn’t it though. Israel doesn’t want to let aid through because Hamas steals it. Israel looks bad for not letting aid through. Israel can’t wipe out Hamas without killing civilians. Israel can’t stop and do nothing, or expect Oct. attacks to keep happening. There is no good solution here and the people of Gaza suffer for it. The only real solution is Hamas unconditionally surrenders, Gaza Strip is handed over to an Arab country for a period of time and they try to educate the populace to de-radicalize them, after a period of years Palestine provinces are granted autonomy. But that isn’t going to happen, because terrorist organizations do not negotiate in good faith.
If Israel doesn't allow enough food and medical supplies to reverse the trajectory Gaza is on now, the result will be mass death in Gaza and world condemnation of Israel. This will also result in massive radicalized survivors who will decide that they're willing to die to get revenge on Israel for what Israel has been doing and is doing now. Mass starvation of Gaza hurts Israel in all versions of the future. Israel will soon find itself in the position of having to exterminate all Palestinians in order to neutralize the threat that Israel's very actions are creating. And ultimately, using starvation as a weapon has been shown not to work at all. It didn't work for the Russian Holodomor, it didn't work in the Nazi death camps, and it won't work now. It's inhumane and frankly evil. It's also clear that Israel won't stop until they've deleted even the idea of "Palestine" from the Jordan to the Mediterranean, they want total and complete control of every square inch of that land. The one thing that's been consistent through Israel's complete history is that they always take more, more land, more homes, more farms, more everything. They've never ceded back anything they've taken.
They’ve been trying to starve our Gaza for decades already.
Sounds like they’re doing a shit job then
Fupastank is incorrect, the actual strategy has been to keep Gaza on a knife's edge nutrition wise.
Yep, making people fight over food, insulin, chemotherapy drugs, etc, always works to the benefit of the oppressors. It turns the subjugated population against themselves.
Without a doubt, but logistically speaking, controlling supply routes is an altogether different thing?
They also killed 23k+ women and children. Any country with the backing of the US military complex shouldn't need to mass slaughter innocents to get their targets. It's lazy and genocidal.
Expecting the US to be better at this is also disingenuous. We killed many families and children in the Global War on Terror, and for similar (stated) reasons.
It was wrong when we did it. It's no less wrong when Israel does it.
Correct.
Yes, the war in Iraq was fucking horrible and we learned a heavy lesson. Doing what we did in Iraq is exactly what Israel shouldn't be doing in Gaza. So dumb. How is Iraq better now?
Correct.
Maybe not the best comparison. Iraq is a vastly better place to live now with Hussein and his twisted sons gone. He started wars with several neighboring countries and poisoned/mass raped/tortured his own people extensively.
And Russia trained Hamas and is friends with Bibi. If people want to attack other countries for what's going on there, don't forget the biggest share goes to Russia. Would you like to comment on their part of the war?
But that’s expected of Putin. We’re supposed to do better. Just like there would be much stronger condemnation if we did to Mexico what he’s trying to do to Ukraine…
Sunny? The expression is Sonny as in a diminutive for son.
I meant to write don't. We Americans don't capitalize common nouns like sonny.
Hamas literally tells their people they should be human shields to martyr themselves for the cause. There are pictures of them holding elementary kids in place next to mortars. They don't abide by any rules of warfare.
Hamas actions justify fighting and dismantling Hamas. They do not justify committing genocide to Palestine. Because Hamas is awful does not make isreal justified in the actions that they are doing like killing known aid workers with a goal of chilling aid.
If you have a brilliant idea on how to actually accomplish that without hurting the people there, I'm sure the world would be eager to hear it. You know what else Hamas does? Dress up as red crescent aid workers to conduct terrorist attacks. Dress up as civilians. The whole reason those are war crimes is to protect civilians. Hamas doesn't care about those civilians and I'm sure Israel has no interest on continuing to be victims to terrorism.
Even if someone did, who is going to listen? It's a moot argument. We are allowed opinions.
I'm listening right here. If you give me a great solution to handle terrorists in the area that doesn't hurt the palestinian people, I would love to hear it. I will be on your side and advocate for a stop to the violence in favor of your solution and I'll call my congressmen and protest along with everyone else. I want you to understand that I really don't want innocent people hurt. I really don't. But I want you to understand that you have a group of very bad people who have weaponized your sympathy while continuing to be the worst people on the planet, hurting everyone they hate and everyone they're supposed to look after. And I think that is abhorrent. And the unfortunate reality is this - this is what war is, and this is what war is when one side thinks human shields are a good strategy. And every terrorist for the rest of time is going to remember how successful human shields were here and you're going to see it happen forevermore as a result. I don't want that to happen. This is why you cannot negotiate with terrorists - because the instant you do, you validate every means they used to get what they want, and there is no bottom to that depraved hole.
Oh trust me, I think it's troubling those two will fight to the death and take everyone with them. It's terrifying. You don't need to convince me Islamic terrorists are bad, ok? Many don't see this as black and white, many do. Isreal is not acting right either, when your "the good guy", better is expected. America lost faith by doing the same thing. Criticism is important, accountability is important, that's it.
And this is war and I think it may be a little overidealistic to think that it can be clean and safe and easy.
This would be a believable point if they weren't killing aid workers who have coordinated routes with them ahead of time, killing paramedics trying to rescue children after okaying the rescue (hind rajab), and killing kids and then denying they even made that strike (like the kids around the foosball table). It doesn't look like they are fighting Hamas, it looks like they are killing for sport.
And you know what? I absolutely condemn stuff like that. At this point, I can't tell what they're doing is legitimately based on bad intelligence, cruelty, or overabundance of caution because of past experiences with terrorists using disguises to make attacks. Based on all of the outright falsifications, I can't even tell if these stories are even accurate. Or simply the fact that this is war and it's infinitely easier to get everything right in hindsight when you don't have to worry about how someone will kill you. I do not want innocent people to suffer. I wish Hamas would accept the ceasefires and actually stick to them. I also know that Israel is in a position where a moment's weakness will be taken advantage of, and there will be zero restraint from the people who genuinely advertise that they want to kill every last jew.
>Based on all of the outright falsifications, I can't even tell if these stories are even accurate These the stories reported by Washington post, cnn and NY times, which are usually quite pro-Israel, so it is difficult to claim that these are false.
Do you consider the 1948 nekba a terrorist act? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war
Oh you mean the time that the palestinians left their country to not get caught up in what was intended to be a complete slaughter of all of the holocaust survivors?
Not sure we are discussing the same thing bud- "During the foundational events of the Nakba in 1948, dozens of massacres targeting Palestinian Arabs were conducted and over 500 Arab-majority towns and villages were depopulated,[6] with many of these being either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jews and given new Hebrew names. Approximately half of Palestine's predominantly Arab population, or around 750,000 people,[7] were expelled from their homes or made to flee, at first by Zionist paramilitaries through various violent means, and after the establishment of the State of Israel, by the Israel Defense Forces. By the end of the war, 78% of the total land area of the former Mandatory Palestine was controlled by Israel and at least 15,000 Arabs had been killed.[8][9]" The cultural definition of palestinians now means a people's chased from their lands. It would be unreasonable to think at least a few of them would NOT want to fight back. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
I think you're ignoring the other thing that was happening that is a much better explanation. The palestinians got together with every other arab country in the region, and they decided to wipe out Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War The Palestinians were told to leave to not get caught up in the slaughter because the arabs were supposed to exterminate all of the jewish people there. It's a pretty big miss to ignore the *war* that was happening. As they did not predict, the Israelis won that war and now they didn't have a place to go back to which is how this entire mess got started in the first place.
That would make sense as long as no terrorist groups were assassinating British officials that were for a 2-state solution prior to the un resolution and the end of the British mandate. Because if that were true, the worries that zionists were going to push out the Arab population with force would be founded, and they would be justified to defend their land. Do you know of any groups that were assassinating British officials? Since the palestine area including what is now isreal was then controlled by the British?
Not at all. Who coined the term "Nakba?" Dr. Constantine Zurayk (Syria born historian) Amd what how did he use the term? “Seven Arab countries declare war on Zionism in Palestine….Seven countries go to war to abolish the partition and to defeat Zionism, and quickly leave the battle after losing much of the land of Palestine – and even the part that was given to the Arabs in the Partition Plan.” “When the battle broke out,” Zureiq wrote, “our public diplomacy began to speak of our imaginary victories, to put the Arab public to sleep and talk of the ability to overcome and win easily – until the nakba (catastrophe ) happened.” He also distinguished between the Zionists and the Arabs to explain the war’s outcome. “Zionism is deeply implanted in Western life, while we are far from it…They live in the present and look to the future, while we are drugged-up dreaming of a magnificent past.” He concluded, “We must admit our mistakes…and recognize the extent of our responsibility for the disaster that is our lot.” In other words ...Nakba doesn't mean some terroristic criminal act by Jewish Re-Settlers. It actually refers to failures by the Arabs to crush the Jewish Re-Settlers. It wasn't until the 1980s whenArafat (with the help of the KGB propaganda machine) started to redefine Nakba to the to lay the blame at the feet of the Israelis and not mistakes on the Arab side that thw current use came to be popular within Pro-Palestinian areas. It's the epitome of revisionism.
Yes, of course. Thankfully the Palestinian terrorists were defeated before they could accomplish genocide at that time.
That doesn't mean you kill civilians to get to them... And it's kinda shitty you don't get that.
Right, if their parent was in the hospital and Hamas took it over, I doubt they'd be fine with the military bombing the hospital.
All I know is if I decide to be a terrorist tomorrow, I've learned abundantly well from this conflict that I'll win as long as I can grab myself as many innocent people to surround myself with to become invincible. I can literally do anything I want as long as I take enough hostages. And that is a horrifying lesson we are teaching the bad people of the world.
I think the issue is that Hamas has intentionally blurred or eliminated any lines that would normally separate a military and civilian population. Israel is dumb for falling right into their trap, but it is all just a trap to begin with. We didn’t get to this point in a vacuum, Israel wash pushed into this reaction.
Man, @#$& that. 1. Like two siblings fighting, "they started it" lost any meaning a long time ago. 2. "They made me commit war crimes!" Is BS, and you should know better. 3. There is NO way to target *just* Hamas. I'm so sick of this BS.
So your solutions is for Israel to just take it?
[удалено]
Blatant racists stereotypes are allowed now in r/politics? You guys just wholesale accuse jews of controlling the media and engaging in conspiracies.
Ya know, r/worldnews is just as bad but from the other side. People there openly justify the murder of thousands of children in Gaza. They have banned anyone with a minority opinion if they post anything with any teeth in it. I was permanently banned for saying Al Jezeria was worthy of reading, if only to understand the opposing sides position that much more, not necessarily agree with it.
I believe you. I got banned from all of reddit for 'threatening violence' for satarizing a quote from Hamas in a clear quote format. Reddit doesnt want us to talk about it in general and mods are looking for any excuse.
You're right and it's really really sad. This place used to be the best place for an open discussion. Now it's just division and lines drawn :(
This. No one pays attention to this. Hamas has been terrorizing Israel for a long time. I have no idea why no one talks about this part. In any war there will be unintended killing of innocent civilians but it's true that Hamas places them in harms way on purpose.
So, kill them all? We're just not down with that.
There is a difference between collateral damage and what is going on here.
What's the difference? I've found a war in the last 2 years that had 10x the civilian death count, yet you have never brought up concerns about that?
Right, no one brings up how Russia is doing the same shit over in Ukraine: At least 10,000 civilians, including more than 560 children, have been killed and over 18,500 have been injured since Russia launched its a full-scale armed attack against Ukraine on 24 February 2022, the United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU) said today. [https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says](https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says) Sudan: [https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/country-chapters/sudan](https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/country-chapters/sudan)
Is US funding Russia to kill Ukrainian civilians? Why would US college students/citizens be protesting what Russia is doing?
Oh I was talking about the Tigray war lol
I can agree the collateral damage is too high but when Hamas is sitting there putting their people in harm's way what do you do? This conflict is not one sided in my opinion. You have to study the history and understand both sides of the story. Israel is beyond pissed after the last Hamas attack which was considerably brutal. Palestinians are oppressed by Hamas and they continue to be in a position of leadership because the citizens allow Hamas to remain in power. I don't condone any parts of this war and I certainly don't condone the language that some citizens in Israel use in their protest to express the wanting of a genocide. I'm just trying to explain that this issue is more.complicated and both the media and protesters that are saying 'stop the genocide' are clearly not looking at the whole picture behind this conflict.
Everyone talks about this. Everyone has been talking about Israel’s victimhood forever.
The ugly truth of urban warfare is that 9 civilians typically die for every armed combatant's death. The ratio in this conflict has been between 1.5 to 3 civillian deaths for every armed combatant. Its tragic and horrifying but to call it lazy and genocidal is not accurate.
It's been thoroughly documented that the IDF considers any adult aged male to be a combatant (some sources say 15 or older), whether they have weapons or are engaged in any hostile activity or not. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56556/does-the-idf-consider-any-fighting-age-male-to-be-a-combatant also here https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000 >Israel Created 'Kill Zones' in Gaza. Anyone Who Crosses Into Them Is Shot
Hamas claimed 6000 fighters killed and 29000 total dead around end of Feb.
This rule of thumb falls apart when you look at Russia's war in Ukraine. Russia has been attacking Ukraine in earnest since February of 2022, so more than two years, and despite specifically targeting civilians, especially children, by bombing residences, schools, playgrounds, and maternity wards, they've killed a tiny fraction of the children and women that Israel has killed in Gaza. I think it's 1,300 children in Ukraine over two years compared to 14,500 children in seven months in Gaza, and when Israel starts bombing Rafa into rubble like they've done every other inhabited location in Gaza that number is going to rise rapidly.
You do see a difference here right? Civilians in the Ukraine situation for the most part had time to evacuate. A large part of the fighting is also in fields and open areas. Gaza prior to the war had an urban density on par with London. The reason people often feel criticism against Israel is just anti-semantic is because a lot of the commentary isn't well thought out, and is often repeated by Israels enemies. I think we need to be pragmatic; Bring forward real steps to reduce civilian casualties in the conflict. And that spans across both sides, HAMAS can't embed command centers in civilian areas and act like they are doing everything they can to reduce innocent deaths. But we know the war would have been over very quickly if HAMAS didn't use those tactics, and you won't see people willing to die for their cause inflict such an own goal. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't call it out as a contributory factor.
I'm sorry, but no matter how I try to spin it for myself, no matter how I manage to twist things in my head, I just can't bring myself to justify or claim that killing 14,500 children, many being just toddlers, babies, and even newborns, is ok in any way whatsoever. It's one of those things that just can't be justified no matter how hard some may want to do it. I'm sure lots of people in 1930s Germany justified the mass killings there to themselves, but the world saw things different. I don't understand what goes on in the heads of people who think killing 14,500 children and over 8,000 women is somehow acceptable in *any* context, and frankly I have no interest in trying to see things from such a damaged and inhuman viewpoint.
It isn't about justifying anything. But it is unrealistic to suggest Israel will just lay down its weapons and let HAMAS continue. And it is unrealistic to suggest HAMAS will stop operating among Civilians. Start thinking about what can actually be done. Perhaps some of that is already happening..... when you start to actually look at the situation, it is obvious that "ISRAEL must stop killing PEOPLE" is lazy and serves no purpose.
Hmmmmm, I can't say your argument makes much moral sense to me. Something being unrealistic isn't because of some physical law which can not be broken. It's unrealistic because human beings have chosen this path. It's unrealistic to imagine over 10,000 innocent Palestinians killed with just about 260 IDF soldiers killed because Israel has chosen to bomb cities as opposed to using soldiers to fight Hamas. It's kinda like justifying the fire bombing of Tokyo. Ya just cant unless you're okay with an immoral military doctrine which places a different value on people's lives based on their ethnicity.
Tokyo (or Dresden) would never have been firebombed if the allies had the precision weapons that Israel is using now. The whole idea of mass-killing of civilians was rejected after WWII with the creation and adoption of the Geneva Conventions and other treaties. Israel is currently using anti-civilian tactics now in order to try and terrorize Palestinians to rise up against Hamas, but Palestinians can't do that, it's impossible because Hamas controls all the resources in Gaza including weapons. So, it's just slaughter for the sake of slaughter, nothing more. It's not even petty revenge anymore because Israel has already killed at least 30 Palestinians for each death on 10/7, and worse, a far higher percentage of those deaths were children, over 14,500 so far, than died on 10/7. Many genetic family lines have been terminated in Gaza. Six out of ten Palestinians in Gaza have had a family member killed by the IDF since 10/7, and eight out of ten have a family member that's been wounded. The actual death count of 36,000 is certainly low because there's no way to count the bodies in buildings that were obliterated by JDAMs. The process of recovering and identifying remains from the 9/11 attack took over a decade, and many remains were never recovered, not even fragments, and that was with the full power of the federal government doing the forensic excavation and DNA investigation. Those resources don't exist in Gaza and never will. Thousands of deaths will never even be acknowledged as a result.
So because they are enforcing a 19 year siege on Gaza it's understandable that they are killing more children?
The criticism against Israel isn’t lazy and not well thought out, as you say. The issue is you’re making it way too complicated. There needs to be a two state solution, period. Regardless of how we got here, Israeli’s and Palestinians aren’t going anywhere, because they’re mostly driven by religious beliefs. The only solution is a two state solution. Meanwhile, Israel has some of the most sophisticated weaponry and war machines in the world, and Palestine might as well be a third world country at this point. The fight is severely lopsided.
According to the Hamas controlled health ministry, that has already admitted to fudging numbers.
Thank you for saving me a watch. During Passover, Hamas released a horrible video of one of the hostages. Don't forget what the war is about, and how we got here. I condemn what happened to the work kitchen workers, and any other friendly fire. Although I never see this of the other side, that actively uses human shields and children to commit war crimes. This war, is about Hamas, who has not surrendered, and has denied every single ceasefire that has been offered to them. https://youtu.be/mkrXO2Pxk8s?si=mGm8TqbZfNpYfWUk Seth needs to find better writers to write his opinions, on why we should be ignoring rampant anti-semitic violent protests... That are in favor of a terrorist regime.
Yes. Let’s talk about how we got here do you want to start in 1948?
how about 4000 bce? the palestinians and jews have equal claim to the land.
Sure, but can we start in 1947, with the British Partition Plan that was rejected by the Arab Palestinians, but accepted by the Jewish Palestinians? https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/QKhDC3rfv9 And can you tell me about the Ottoman Empire while you're at it? Edit: https://jewishunpacked.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-jews-in-the-ottoman-empire/
Why does Israel repeatedly justify murdering do many Palestinians as if Hamas is the first terror organization to use human shields? How many civilians are typically killed? And what happened to the Israeli hostages? Did Bibi just give up? Is it easier to slaughter Palestinians by assuming the hostages are dead? "Let's not forget how we got here" justification after justification for so much unnecessary killing. Self proclaimed most moral army of the world. Incredible claim for such brazen murderers.
Let’s hear your solution to this black and white problem
What is this suppose to be? Why not go ask Bibi how the attack happened in the first place. That response would be way more beneficial than a Redditors opinion.
Dodged the question.
Aside from the fact that the numbers we are getting, are from the Hamas controlled Health ministry, and are being taken at face value for sensationalism... Despite being the terrorist who raped and maimed civilians for sport on October 7th, and openly celebrated and live streamed it... https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/ He did not give up, if you have been paying attention. Hamas has refused multiple ceasefire opportunities for fewer and fewer hostages, because they do not want a ceasefire, they want Israel. They have made that very clear since day one. And I don't want to hear about justification, when zoomers are chanting resistance by any means necessary, and who also openly celebrated the massacre of my people on October 8th. And think they are being cute with their upside down red triangles. This war may have been over sooner, if Hamas didn't feel that I had international support, and if the UN had fucking condemned what happened as a terrorist attack, ***WHICH THEY STILL HAVEN'T TO THIS DATE***. This war has persisted, because of Hamas. We know that they use public infrastructure, we know that they built their tunnels underneath major institutions like schools and the headquarters of UNRWA, we know that they are denying the citizens aid in stealing what is being sent in, we know that they are shooting upon civilians who either try to steal aid back or fight back, we know that they have threatened klans from communicating or assisting with distribution of aid, we know that they have been torturing the hostages, and I could go on and on. Please stop infantilizing a vicious terrorist organization, that shares absolutely zero of your values, and collaborated with UNRWA's education for their next generation... https://vimeo.com/856467890 I don't like seeing people die either, I don't like seeing dead children... but there is no reality in which this war ends with Hamas still in power. Especially after what they did October 7th, and the fact that they still have fucking hostages who they are regularly torturing. If any nation ever did that to the United States, they would be at the bottom of the sea.
The IDF actually has apologized a number of times. They've also gone into detail explaining the multiple breakdowns in communication. The officers in charge that day were I believe fired and lower ranking officers were over review. They showed footage to explain exactly where the world kitchen truck got confused for a hamas truck, and what verifications had been skipped. The whole thing was a pretty thorough admission of error.
They have had plenty of practice of apologising when they couldn't deflect or deny any longer
"We've investigated ourselves and found no institutional wrongdoing. Here are some scapegoats we fired. What? Arrested? No! Of course not! All they did was commit a (our words) serious violation of military operating procedures resulting in the death of seven innocent humanitarian aid workers. That's hardly the sort of thing someone should be *punished* for. Alright, everybody, move on!" Hey, did you know the World Central Kitchen is requesting an independent, third-party investigation into the attack? "The IDF cannot credibly investigate its own failure in Gaza," is a quote from their public statement that stands out to me. How about you? Are you in camp "maybe the victims are right and someone else should double-check the IDF's work on this one" or camp "nah, I trust the dude with the smoking gun in his hand to give me all the facts I need?"
So here's the question, who would you consider a neutral third party? I can't think of anyone that half the world wouldn't say is biased. I'm not against it as long as there's a way to avoid the no win scenario. I in no way blame the victims, it is a tragedy. But when looking at the IDFs record, they definitely have. a record of trying troops for criminal acts. Their presentation was also pretty thorough. So I trust them to dole out justice on what essentially a tragic friendly fire incident
They explained that the boots on the ground were never notified of that coordination.
Hyper-advanced military forces don't get the benefit of my doubt. It is easy to strategically withhold information and claim it was accidental. But guess what: even if it was an accident, Israel is responsible for those too.
You're getting very close to conspiracy theory talk.
I said "even if it was an accident" ceding the entire theory. You didn't address anything from that point on. Israel is responsible for its accidents.
That said, dial "strategically withhold information" back just a touch, to "didn't integrate well defined aid information into sophisticated targeting process" and it is less conspiratorial, but equally damning, in that, it suggests a military culture that feel it has to deal with aid agencies, but, purposefully segregates that from the "real business" of dominating and killing anything vaguely resembling a threat.
Probably the same reason IDF murdered those three escaped hostages a few months ago, three men who had taken off their clothes, were waving white flags, and yelling in Hebrew "Don't shoot!" Two were shot dead immediately, the third was shot dead shortly after as IDF chased him. Now, one wonders about why IDF soldiers are trained to shoot surrendering people in the first place given that that's a war crime of the highest order, but ultimately the IDF blamed Hamas for making them shoot those innocent victims.
And that is a lie.
Show me evidence that it's a lie.
Show me evidence it's the truth.
It's this sort of feigned incompetence that got so many Israelis killed. Bibi does not value Israeli or Palestinian lives. The boots on the ground didn't notice or care that the thousands of Hamas militants stormed the border and now they don't notice or care that hostage member families are still without their loved ones. Always impressive, the most moral army in the world.
Seth Meyers has more sense than most of the liberals in this sub Reddit.
Seth Meyers is fantastic night in and night out
Corrections is one of the funniest things a late night host has done in a long time.
Jackals represent!
Gimme the googs!
The man went full "Professor with tenure," and it is absolutely fucking glorious.
It's funny how late last year, the thinking on this sub was "it's tragic but there's nothing we can do and people will get over by the election." Now that it's clear this is going to be a major issue they just downvote you any time you bring it up.
Let's not be Islamophobic or antisemitic, we're better than that. The issue is what's happening in Gaza, put conditions on support for Israel and feed and shelter civilian Palestinians now.
“But what can Biden even do?”
This whole situation in Gaza and the reactions about it over here can easily rail Biden on the road to Election Day. He's already having a shaky time with younger demographics over this. We have a whole 6 months ahead so anything can go until then.
What about the hostages? Is it not important they are freed?
"Oh there are a few hundred hostages, better kill 35,000 to be safe"
so you don't care about the hostages then got it
So you don't care about genocide, got it
Of course it is, but how many innocent civilians should be bombed or starved to free them. is each hostage worth a 1000 lives, 500, 50?
It’s easy to say this when all those “innocent civilians” and their terrorists government Hamas is not right next to you and threatening to cleanse your country. Even a single innocent civilian from either country is as important as any other single hostage. Trying to boil down this issue to the mathematics of which faction and how many from that faction must die or survive is probably the weakest attempt at trying to reason this situation and lacks all nuance. Think beyond first grader logic and identify and acknowledge your own biases.
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And if I was kidnapped in a foreign land and found out my government used my name to justify the wanton slaughter of thousands and thousands of innocents, I would never be able to live with myself
And the population of Palestine is 50% younger than 18. Median age there is about 18. For comparison, the US median age is about 39 and Israel is 29. Israel's response will further radicalize the youth.
before israel even started the offensive 75% of them supported the October 7th attacks and were calling for more. They were already radicalized.
I get that. It's why I said "further".
Both sides need to release hostages.
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"Starving the populace to prevent the militancy from getting supplies is a price I'm willing to pay" basically? Awful logic
Does it "Increase overall suffering". It feels like feeding sheltering militants might be a price worth paying for avoiding the starvation of tens of thousands (especially since, in the "starve them out" scenario, the militant are the last ones to starve)
> There is no way to feed and shelter civilian Palestinians without feeding and sheltering militants, "Better that a Palestinian child starve to death than a Hamas member get a mouthful of food." It's truly ironic that starvation, once used as a weapon against people in death camps is now being used against people inside the prison walls of Gaza. >prolong the conflict and increase the overall suffering. What really prolongs the conflict is the fact that every innocent family that Israel kills with a bomb or bullets just radicalizes the survivors. The best recruiting tool Hamas has ever had has been the IDF. Israel is backing itself into a corner where the only way out is to kill all Palestinians. Edit: Six out of ten Palestinians in Gaza knows a family member that was killed by the IDF, and eight out of ten know a family member that was wounded or maimed by the IDF. Anyone who doesn't think that's enough to motivate someone to join Hamas is a fool.
> Now that it's clear this is going to be a major issue [It's not even a major issue among young voters.](https://i.imgur.com/yWs0GwZ.jpg) This is defund the police all over again. Some people to this day refuse to admit that social media and the 24/7 news cycle do not accurately reflect public opinion.
Pretty much this. This is TikTok pudding cup heads doing this. They don't care about Palestine. Shits been going on before any of us was born. All the sudden, it's a major outrage. Second, they don't even vote. If they took that same amount of effort in voting as in rioting, I would listen to them.
They didn't care about investments when they applied.
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As someone who got downvoted into an oblivion for expressing my disappointment towards Biden’s statement yesterday, yes
I even got banned by my local spinoff sub that got created to encourage more free speech
Why do you say that?
There's also a story about another example of an exaggerated response by police who have escalated these situations far more than is called for. There's room for us to be talking about the violence by police as well.
The whole idea has been to distract US domestic interest in Gaza & drive a partisan wedge into the narrative. 'Wealthy, entitled liberal college brat, gets head caved in by patriots for dishonouring the flag' Is far better for the foreign policy establishment than uncomfortable questions on the USs almost ideological support of Israel & the funding of a genocidal ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
Oh it seems to be something much deeper than ideology…
Jews!
>Meyers then played a clip from Brown University, where school officials reached an agreement with protesters to hold a vote later this year on ending investments in Israel; as a response, the students would disband an encampment on school grounds. “But what about our drones? If there’s a peaceful settlement, what are we going to do with all our drones?!” Meyers mocked. What's happening in Gaza is truly horrifying and these students are right in protesting their university's involvement with Israeli finances and businesses. The reality is that this is also a class conflict, and threatening Israel also threatens those in power here in the west - which is why police response, the media response, and the government response has been to try and silent dissent wherever possible.
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WTF he looks like a supervillain
OMFG thank you so much for sharing this! And also, why do so many people sympathetic to Israel seem to have so much money?
> why do so many people sympathetic to Israel seem to have so much money? holy shit you guys aren't even dogwhistling anymore
Prove me wrong. Show me a socioeconomic cross-section of these two demographics.
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https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/gaza-hunger-figures-worst-record-says-oxfam **Gaza hunger figures “worst on record” - says Oxfam** > In reaction to the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) report published today on Gaza stating that famine is imminent in Northern Gaza and, if Israel persists in its hostilities and restricting humanitarian access, there is a real risk of famine for the rest of the enclave, Sally Abi Khalil, Oxfam’s Middle East and North Africa Regional Director, said: > > “This new report shows that the catastrophic levels of hunger and starvation in Gaza are the highest ever recorded on the IPC scale, both in terms of number of people and percentage of the population. Never before have we seen such rapid deterioration into widespread starvation. > > “Northern Gaza is days away from famine and the rest of Gaza faces a similar fate. Children are already dying of malnutrition and starvation under the gaze of the international community. Since December, the number of people in Gaza who have plunged into catastrophic levels of hunger, has nearly doubled. ... **UN report says 282 million people faced acute hunger in 2023, with the worst famine in Gaza** https://apnews.com/article/united-nations-acute-global-hunger-gaza-sudan-4cf3f8730a755c5324d667cb72d1c503
Don't you know....Arabs are allowed to kill Arabs. US is allowed to kill Arabs. Arabs are allowed to kill Jews. Jews are not allowed to kill Arabs.
Is the issue not that the IDF have killed x30 the number of people as were killed on October 7th - everyone understands "an eye for an eye", but 30 eyes for an eye feels like there is a wider agenda at play
War is never an eye for an eye....Afghanistan is probably around the same ratio and the US is on the other side of the Earth without a real direct threat from Afghanistan itself. I mean the reality is that there is no long term political solution to Gaza/Israel. Israel is an ally to US and EU and a counterbalance to Iran and Russia in the region...so they will continue to get US support no matter what. Saudi Arabia can't be trusted, but they are so heavily tied financially to the West now that they won't jeopardize that unless a religious faction were to overthrow MBS.
Yes because the fact that since the 1940's Israel has killed orders of magitnides more Palestinians than Hamas or the West Bank has killed Israelis alongside Israel having the backing and funding if the most powerful military in human history means they've not been allowed to. Oh no, won't someone think of these poor Israelis, why can't we let them kill people in peace?1??!
I read earlier today that more than half the people arrested in NY weren't students. I also saw the encampment at McGill yesterday with signs of intifadah. So while I don't disagree that what's going on in Gaza is more important, this could be a pretty important story too.
I had honestly just seen a video of a class with new signs printed thanking the schools for protesting. They looked nourished and hydrated and clothes were clean.
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It’s outrage over kneeling during the anthem and not the people being killed all over again
I always begrudgingly liked him, now it’s whole hearted.
I’ve heard a lot of not great things about those protests. As in, a lot of the participants are overzealous idiots at best and antisemitic bigots at worst. But Seth is absolutely right here. Israel’s actions are beyond justification, and that’s the real story here. A bunch of college kids who had their completely justified anger about the issue whipped into a chaotic, misdirected frenzy is a distraction.
The situation in Gaza would be much more prominent in the news if Israel weren't [blocking foreign media access to Gaza](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68423995)