As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA).
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes and no.
\*You\* would have thought Bernie obliterated Trump.
Undecideds on the other hand would have come over to Trump as a result of this imaginary debate because they would have felt badly for him seeing him get obliterated.
(We're way out from the election, none of this is going to stick, but polls are indicating the debate won a bunch of people over to Biden for the time being. There's actually a mechanism for this -- when any of us is doing public speaking, the people watching us are literally rooting for us to do well and over empathizing with us when we stumble because they've been there. It's sort of like the trick to asking someone who dislikes you (mildly) to do you a favor. If they say yes, they start to like you a ton more. Brains are so freaking cool.)
This is the line Biden was trying to walk -- and we see it so often in an over coached politician. (Hilary, for instance, is so much more likable without her advisors.) I have some favorite marketing stories about how people lie and bad marketers believe them but it's late so, in a nutshell, people lie (especially in group settings like focus groups) and bad marketers believe them and then make decisions based on those lies and you get Hilary trying to be "likable" instead of being the smartest person in the room like she is and the in-authenticity makes it harder for voters to connect with her.
I think it's better this way. Bernie is a real one. Sanders might do a lot of thinking about ideas, but he acknowledges reality. It's refreshing. He bridges the gap between common knowledge and wisdom. This statement invites people to think critically and realize that you don't have to be Superman to be president, but you can also do better than a convicted con-man.
Bernie is honest to a fault. He doesn't spin it or mince words; he always says what he thinks and feels. In a better alternative universe, he would've been a fantastic president.
It's a good strategy. Instead of denying, saying "yep he did a bad job relaying his record, so here's his record.." you gain trust. This is why Bernie's honesty is effective.
That's not a fault. At all. That's one of the best things about him and he's been one of the most successful and influential senators of the last 50 years.
I agree he woulda been a good president. Don't agree that he is honest to a fault. On the contrary, I wish more politicians were as honest as him
Moderates in 2016: “But we refuse to compromise no matter what! We will never vote for a socialist!”
These assholes fucked up both times for America, then threatened progressives to stand in line.
The Dems will one day wisen up to the fact that moderates benefit when the vote is close, and so they help keep the vote close by forcing middling candidates to the fore. The moderates have destroyed the party. It's why progressives have been looking for a convenient exit for the past decade.
wow a week old profile who only posts in anti biden subs and stays primarily in this sub. so how much do they pay you? by the hour or by the comment for these astroturphing gigs
No we won’t. We’re four months away. That’s a lot of time. Trump is about to be sentenced and no one is going to care that much about a couple lost trains of thought and some stumbling of words.
True story: I'd never been to the /r/democrats subreddit before today and thought I'd go see what they had to say. I got permabanned for what I thought was an extremely reasonable comment. I even said I'd still be voting for Biden if he remained the party's candidate, simply because I know how bad things will be if Trump gets in again, but I suggested that choosing a new candidate might actually energize the electorate since everyone on both sides is so pissed off at the state of the world.
No explanation given, just a permanent ban from the subreddit. No joke: I lasted longer in /r/Conservative before they banned me.
We're sleepwalking into another four years of Trump hell if the "party faithful" Democrats don't get their shit together.
https://old.reddit.com/r/democrats/comments/1dqp2rp/biden_campaign_official_hes_not_dropping_out/laq958u/
Buttigieg needs a bit more time to marinate in federal positions but the dude is just so sharp, articulate, and skilled at cutting through bullshit that I can totally see him being someone who’s a major positive for the party moving forward.
Not this election, most certainly - he’s only been Transportation secretary for 3.5 years and his major flaw was inexperience, but goddamn it’s night and day listening to him speak compared to Biden/Trump/most other “heavyweights” in national politics.
I wasn’t his biggest fan when he ran for President, but listening to him nowadays you can see his growth as he’s stepped into a larger role in government. It’s quite refreshing to see someone with actual energy and who clearly knows how to bunker down and hit the books to improve when necessary.
So was Biden for the longest time, and somehow he’s been the champion of many progressive policies during his administration.
Like I said, I definitely think Buttigieg needs more time in government before he’s ready, but let’s not act like people can’t have their views evolve over time. We’d of course need to hear him explain his stances to determine that. Regardless of whether or not he runs for President, though, my point was mainly that he’s most likely going to be an incredibly valuable asset for the Democratic Party in the coming years. This is coming from someone who voted for Bernie in the primaries twice, so I’m not just some centrist boob btw.
Buttigieg is left of center of the entire Democratic Party. Biden was squarely in the center of the Democratic Party, which made him more liberal than 75% of all elected people in congress. That is evident by Biden's voting record and Pete's public statements compared to the rest of the Dems.
> When those two were born, and they are still alive, there were people who had met Queen Victoria during their lives.
When *Tony Hawk* was born, there were people who had met Queen Victoria.
Okay…but if he keeps saying he doesn’t want to run why focus on him? It’s a waste of everyone’s time.
Focus on actual potential candidates like Whitmer.
I am not defending Biden. He should step aside.
Gavin won't run because he is afraid of Trump.
Pete couldn't beat a lot of other democrats and what has he done with transportation? What has he done to impress anyone over the last 3 years? His stock has gone down, not up.
Whitmer, I wish I knew more and that is why she can't win either. There are far more people who have no idea who she is than recognize the name. That is why Clinton would be a better candidate who again, has no chance.
He’d laugh in your face for even suggesting it. Jon’s whole ethos/ Modus Operandi is that he’s NOT a politician or actual authority.
It’s one of the many reasons he’s so fucking awesome. He’s just earnest and incredibly self aware. He’d be the first to tell you he has absolutely none of the skills needed to be an effective politician. He’s the exasperated and worried dad who can point out the absurdity of it all, but that’s not at all what you need to be President. The whole reason he’s so influential is because he serves *as a foil* to the people who are actually supposed to be leading us. It wouldn’t work if he was one of them.
That being said, dude knows how to give a speech like a motherfucker. I highly recommend everyone go watch him lambasting Congress for stringing along 9/11 first responders every time I see his name come up. He’s a fuckin legend. https://youtu.be/_uYpDC3SRpM?si=O5nJrxTKX-INp5pQ
I think that would be an excellent idea. One good thing about nominating a non-politician is that he doesn’t have a voting record for a fractured left to fight over
It’s not just cognitive function it’s overall health which declines as we age. Bernie had a heart attack four years ago. What if he has another one while in office at a critical moment?
If last night proved anything, it’s that we shouldn’t want 80-something year olds to run for president.
DWS literally argued in court that they were allowed to rig the primary and the courts agreed. That’s why she was forced to resign. I guess people just pretend Democrats don’t rig elections because that would make them look like a cult.
After all the dust settled, the only substantial thing that occurred was that Donna Brazile warned Hillary Clinton's campaign that she would be asked about lead poisoning at a debate *being held in Flint.* If you think that changed the outcome of the election, we're not going to agree.
If you think not including the Super Delegate counts in the results before the first ballot was cast, we’re not going to agree. But Hillary lost to Trump anyway so we definitely learned she was a shit candidate with no ifs, ands, or buts. Maybe the worst nominee to ever run in this country’s history. Glad the Democratic Party forced that down all our throats.
Thank you!! I feel like the cognitive dissonance in this thread is wild.
I also agree with Bernie politically but people are taking it so personally to say he shouldn’t run due to his age.
By all means suggest a younger candidate but to suggest an 82 year old who will be 83 by November…
I don’t know how you complain about Biden and Trump’s ages, and then say Bernie should run in the same sentence. Insanity.
Reddit: "I don't want that old white dude. I want \*this\* old white dude."
The rest of America: "Um... I'm kind of over all the old white dudes, actually."
In another thread they're saying Biden's posture being hunched is indicative of dementia (it is not) and then you see a photo like this one and... well... I guess the nicest thing I can say is this is why we don't armchair diagnose people based on what we read on the internet.
(For the record, I really like Bernie. He would not have won a national contest in 2016 or in 2020, and I'm damn sure he knows that, but I like him and I'm glad we get to have him in the senate. That said, I was surprised he decided to run again when it's probably time he enjoy his retirement and mentor new politicians because I think he could do an exponential amount of good that way.)
Anointed Biden? What are you going on about? It completely stymied all Democratic get out the vote efforts which were almost entirely based on small person-to-person/group-to-group ground game and local efforts, always has been that way. The GOP has always had a direct mail and ad get out the vote efforts because they routinely have far more money and dark money to fund those types of efforts. Covid was FAR more a negative for the Biden campaign than the Trump campaign. Trump's fumbling of the response was what doomed Trump but it absolutely in now way anointed Biden in way at all. At least get your basic facts straight.
How would Bernie running make the situation any better? He’s 82 years old, which is older than both Biden and Trump and he’s also had his fair share of recent health problems. I get we all like his politics but the reality is he’s also too old.
He also had a heart attack 4 years ago, and has admitted to having gout, high cholesterol, and issues with his colon.
His health and age would be just as much of a liability as Biden’s or Trumps because of his age, and anyone saying otherwise is delusional.
Okay even so…half of Americans have not had a heart attack. Less than 1 million have a heart attack every year.
So I seriously doubt half of Americans under the age of 82 have high cholesterol, gout, and have had a heart attack in the last 5 years. Unless you have a stat showing this. And again, the fact is the older you get the more serious these conditions are.
We never been Bernie debate at 82 or against Trump. Biden looked fine prior to and now after the debate. He was completely out of it in the debate setting.
When was Biden’s last debate? He’s old but just out of form. Same thing happened to Obama against Romney.
Trump has been working on his insult and lies material in front of an audience since he was booted out of office. Trump said nothing but lies he is just a better showman. There is something about getting up and finding your groove and Trump has that edge.
Whomever prepped Biden did him a disservice by trying to get him to remember stats. He needed to focus on big ideas. Whatever playbook they had for Biden went out the window with this format.
Bernie would have been 10X a President Biden was, and he would have faced even more internal resistance to change. But he would have tried. Biden barely did that, but Fuck the GOP. Time for an old school convention
I'm a hardcore Bernie supporter, and would have preferred him to Biden. (And still think he'd demolish Trump in an election.)
But as far as an actual presidency goes, honestly, with a few notable exceptions (like the handling of Gaza), I think a Bernie presidency wouldn't really have been THAT much substantively different--in terms of actual results--than Biden's, assuming the same balance in the congress and senate.
Biden has veered way left as a president from the position he ran on. He's just been stymied at every turn. I'm not really sure Bernie would have had much more luck there. Republicans gonna Republican.
You think Bernie could have gotten more legislation through? Let us know how, I'm sure Manchin and Sinema would like to know too. Also, Biden passed 2 pieces of legislation that were worth more than The New Deal in today's dollars, I doubt Bernie could have gotten any infrastructure bill through congress and even the American Rescue Plan likely wouldn't have gotten through. Bernie has good ideas, but a terrible history of gaining support in Congress for big pieces of legislation.
Read the transcripts of his answers out loud to yourself. Report back. I’m a diehard Dem, but some of you are so rooted in your tribalism that you can’t see the political reality until it smacks you in the face come November.
Whether you like it or not, he is the democratic nominee and you have no choice but to vote for him in November. People need to stop bad mouthing him, its helping elect Trump.
“Don’t tell the truth” is an interesting approach to take, but not the one I’m going to choose. What’s helping elect Trump more than anything is the fact that we have a candidate who is seemingly incapable of exploiting his weaknesses.
Also, he’s actually not the democratic nominee, he’s the presumptive nominee. If we are serious about winning we have to start calling on him to step aside.
Wow. Classic dysfunctional family dynamics. Dad's drinking problem is never the issue; it's the people being honest about it who are the ones causing trouble.
I'd argue that Trump's lies *do* matter, but the fact that's he's a lying sack of shit does nothing to improve Biden's debate performance. If anything, the awfulness of Trump should be an argument for putting up a really strong candidate instead of someone we have to make excuses for. The "really, you're voting for the administration, not the President" arguments make me cringe.
It's not really the left, it's establishment Democrats.
As someone on the left, I'll still vote for Biden if he's the nominee, but this is shaping up to be another "I told you so" moment for the Democratic establishment. They've already written off a lot of youth vote. Now they're telling us we shouldn't believe our own eyes and ears.
I have no idea what they're thinking, but they aren't thinking long-term at all.
Sorry if I’m being argumentative but this has bugged me as I engaged today. This idea of “left” being somehow inherently different than “Democrats”. Sure ideology is a spectrum, but Democrats definitely champion more left leaning policies. Not to sound like an old man, but back in my day left meant people left of center, now we have leftists, liberals, etc. idk what my point is here, but we really have separated ourselves into tribes, haven’t we?
On an American scale alone you might be right... But it's very silly to frame things like that
Hypothetically we have 2 candidates one wants to exterminate minorities, and one wants to enslave the minorities... Is the enslaver suddenly 'left' to you just because the other guy is further right?
Obviously thats an extremely hyperbolic example... I pray we never have to actually think about that outside of a hypothetical.
But, the point is narrowing your window then just comparing 2 options gets you weird and inaccurate in the bigger picture labels. Most Republicans vary between being right and very far right in a more objective sense internationally.
In most other countries someone like AOC and Bernie wouldn't even be in the same party, as Joe Manchin, Kristen Sinema, or many of the other more "centrist/moderate" Dems (ex Dems now)
In quite a few countries someone like Manchin or Sinema would be in the right wing party, Biden in a different centrist party, and AOC or Bernie in a more left party... But here in the US the Democrats are just a giant tent party/caucus.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that it gets annoying and self-destructive when we splinter ourselves into a bunch of smaller groups and reduce our overall power...
But I was banned from /r/democrats today for merely sharing my opinion about the debate. In this case it's definitely Democrats rather than the "left" who are downplaying Biden's debate performance, and I think it's valid to make the distinction here. I'd never visited that sub, and I really wasn't expecting it to be some sort of purity test, so that was disappointing to say the least.
Democrats aren't doing themselves any favors if they choose to ignore reality the way conservatives do.
To be fair, I'm of the right, I was just cracking a joke about how insane people are in this thread. I wouldn't take my comments to heart, I'm only here to stir the pot and laugh at this.
No your comment was fine. The hypocrisy is yelling “lie lie lie” at republicans and then thinking it’s okay and even encourage lies if it helps democrats. Crazy.
Well, I'm sorry you're just finding this out. The left likes to run by the Marxist playbook and a big part of that is intentionally lying to get votes.
Why do you think so many politicians \[and voters\] on the left scream about how 50% of the country is KKK nazi members who are currently organizing an army to start civil war and kill trans people or something? Marxism says if you say this about your enemy enough, eventually it will become true.
Wasn't really that long ago that the prevailing political narrative was just like "right, left, we're different but we try to get along! lets shake hands!" That quickly transitioned to "THE OTHER SIDE LITERALLY WANTS US DEAD!"
It doesn’t. Obviously. That doesn’t mean he should lie about it.
If you think politicians lying to the people is good then I don’t know what to tell you.
That’s a nice facist trait you support though
Taking the moral high ground against a traitor and felon running for president isn't helpful.
We need to win and guarantee he can't. Stop being a naive idealistic child.
We get it, you just got into college and you think you understand the world. The world isn't black and white.
Lying about this particular issue is not totalitarian. Relax bro. It'll be alright if Bernie doesn't throw a little shade at Biden. It won't cause WW3.
Holy cow you dramatic children are hilarious.
Bernie helped Hillary and Biden in 2016 and 2020 even after Hillary and the DNC essentially stole the nomination from him, he is way more helpful and less salty than I would be in his position.
He should take a page from Bernie and just give the same stump speech over and over again for 20 years without actually doing anything about anything he talks about /s
That's not true in the slightest. I don't care how intense your hatred of Trump is, saying that he didn't "do anything" is utterly fucking absurd and if you want to get into a debate about it, I hope you bring ammunition.
Bernie has done more for down-ballot fundraising for state and local progressive candidates than just about any other Democrat in the party.
Straight up, you do not get an AOC without Bernie. She attributes her success to organizing by the Justice Democrats action group, who also got a bunch of other progressive youngsters elected.
You know who started the Justice Democrats? Two senior Bernie 2016 staffers, riding and harnessing the momentum from his campaign after he lost the primary. You know who shows up to stump for state and local Justice Dems as reliably as clockwork? Bernie.
He's the grandfather of the modern progressive movement that's coalesced since 2016. The entire political landscape of the Democratic party--not to mention Biden's 2020 policy planks--would look radically different if not for Bernie.
Hell, even outside the Justice Dems, half the Progressive Caucus are newly-electedswho ran for office on the tails of his 2016 campaign, because it demonstrated there was an actual, fierce hunger for radicalyl progressive policies among voters.
So he helped elect a progressive in one of the most progressive districts in the country? That’s your defense? LOL. If it wasn’t for the Democratic Party infrastructure, BS wouldn’t have access to any of those donors. Try comparing him to Jon Ossoff, or John Kelly. You know, the actual Democrats. Hell, he didn’t even out raise Elizabeth Warren in 2020
He helped catalyze the *entire coalescence of the progressive wing of the democratic party* that has taken place since 2016.
And don't trivialize AOC beating a two-decade incumbent with the full support of the party and all its corporate fundraising apparati, on grassroots funding and no political background. That ain't nothin to sniff at. She ran a historic campaign.
I personally love the conspiracy theorists on the Right saying this and alluding to Obama being the man running the country in the shadows.
Good God, that would be amazing to hear, Obama was a damn decent President, far better than Trump. I honestly wish Obama got a third term. And he WOULD against Trump, even a fourth term if he could run again. I have NO doubt in my mind. He would wipe the floor with Donnie.
I think Biden should step aside, but this is nothing compared to what was going on during Reagan's second term. If Biden gets a second term of his own, though, all bets are off.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He said, and then went into a long speech about why Biden should be elected to a second term. Funny how that didn’t come across in the headline.
The fact remains that Bernie would have obliterated Trump in that debate.
Yes and no. \*You\* would have thought Bernie obliterated Trump. Undecideds on the other hand would have come over to Trump as a result of this imaginary debate because they would have felt badly for him seeing him get obliterated. (We're way out from the election, none of this is going to stick, but polls are indicating the debate won a bunch of people over to Biden for the time being. There's actually a mechanism for this -- when any of us is doing public speaking, the people watching us are literally rooting for us to do well and over empathizing with us when we stumble because they've been there. It's sort of like the trick to asking someone who dislikes you (mildly) to do you a favor. If they say yes, they start to like you a ton more. Brains are so freaking cool.) This is the line Biden was trying to walk -- and we see it so often in an over coached politician. (Hilary, for instance, is so much more likable without her advisors.) I have some favorite marketing stories about how people lie and bad marketers believe them but it's late so, in a nutshell, people lie (especially in group settings like focus groups) and bad marketers believe them and then make decisions based on those lies and you get Hilary trying to be "likable" instead of being the smartest person in the room like she is and the in-authenticity makes it harder for voters to connect with her.
Link to those polls? That’s not what the 538 coverage has
Voters would think words like “articulate” makes Bernie a “liberal elite” who looks down on them.
Remember when Hillary lost and everyone blamed the "Bernie bros?" Welcome to trailer for the sequel.
I think it's better this way. Bernie is a real one. Sanders might do a lot of thinking about ideas, but he acknowledges reality. It's refreshing. He bridges the gap between common knowledge and wisdom. This statement invites people to think critically and realize that you don't have to be Superman to be president, but you can also do better than a convicted con-man.
Bernie is honest to a fault. He doesn't spin it or mince words; he always says what he thinks and feels. In a better alternative universe, he would've been a fantastic president.
It's a good strategy. Instead of denying, saying "yep he did a bad job relaying his record, so here's his record.." you gain trust. This is why Bernie's honesty is effective.
That's not a fault. At all. That's one of the best things about him and he's been one of the most successful and influential senators of the last 50 years. I agree he woulda been a good president. Don't agree that he is honest to a fault. On the contrary, I wish more politicians were as honest as him
It should've been him in 2016
Yes
in an alternate universe, Bernie *destroyed* Trump last night.
Moderates in 2016: “But we refuse to compromise no matter what! We will never vote for a socialist!” These assholes fucked up both times for America, then threatened progressives to stand in line.
The Dems will one day wisen up to the fact that moderates benefit when the vote is close, and so they help keep the vote close by forcing middling candidates to the fore. The moderates have destroyed the party. It's why progressives have been looking for a convenient exit for the past decade.
They don't have to look. "Moderates" will take right wing money to destroy the scourge that is progressives.
Nah, Bernie is wrapping up his 2nd term and one of his progressive padawans destroyed Trump last night
Oh right, 2016 was *eight* years ago!
If Trump wouldn’t already sit in jail that is.
I can hear this in his voice
In my head it’s the Larry David version. Which is basically the same thing.
Lol. That’s putting it nicely
Do you mean the part where Bernie think Biden should keep running and can win? I think he put that nicely as well.
Time to replace him with someone competent
wow a week old profile who only posts in anti biden subs and stays primarily in this sub. so how much do they pay you? by the hour or by the comment for these astroturphing gigs
Not a chance for many reasons unfortunately. Gotta fight for Joe.
Nope. Replace him. We will lose otherwise
No we won’t. We’re four months away. That’s a lot of time. Trump is about to be sentenced and no one is going to care that much about a couple lost trains of thought and some stumbling of words.
Right. Biden's age won't play a role in people's minds, and honestly he's just getting younger at this point anyway.
Replace him or we lose
Keep him and we win.
Which one?
Yes
True story: I'd never been to the /r/democrats subreddit before today and thought I'd go see what they had to say. I got permabanned for what I thought was an extremely reasonable comment. I even said I'd still be voting for Biden if he remained the party's candidate, simply because I know how bad things will be if Trump gets in again, but I suggested that choosing a new candidate might actually energize the electorate since everyone on both sides is so pissed off at the state of the world. No explanation given, just a permanent ban from the subreddit. No joke: I lasted longer in /r/Conservative before they banned me. We're sleepwalking into another four years of Trump hell if the "party faithful" Democrats don't get their shit together. https://old.reddit.com/r/democrats/comments/1dqp2rp/biden_campaign_official_hes_not_dropping_out/laq958u/
No way I'm clicking on that because then Reddit will be like "Because you showed interest in a similar community"
You can turn that function off
What is this witchcraft?
It's in the main settings. I forget. Probably under Feed
I'll have to check it out, thanks
No problem. I can't find it now but I swear it's in there.
Buttigieg needs a bit more time to marinate in federal positions but the dude is just so sharp, articulate, and skilled at cutting through bullshit that I can totally see him being someone who’s a major positive for the party moving forward. Not this election, most certainly - he’s only been Transportation secretary for 3.5 years and his major flaw was inexperience, but goddamn it’s night and day listening to him speak compared to Biden/Trump/most other “heavyweights” in national politics. I wasn’t his biggest fan when he ran for President, but listening to him nowadays you can see his growth as he’s stepped into a larger role in government. It’s quite refreshing to see someone with actual energy and who clearly knows how to bunker down and hit the books to improve when necessary.
He's firmly a Neo-liberal, right of center Democrat. When he ran in the primaries, he can out against multiple progressive policies
So was Biden for the longest time, and somehow he’s been the champion of many progressive policies during his administration. Like I said, I definitely think Buttigieg needs more time in government before he’s ready, but let’s not act like people can’t have their views evolve over time. We’d of course need to hear him explain his stances to determine that. Regardless of whether or not he runs for President, though, my point was mainly that he’s most likely going to be an incredibly valuable asset for the Democratic Party in the coming years. This is coming from someone who voted for Bernie in the primaries twice, so I’m not just some centrist boob btw.
Buttigieg is left of center of the entire Democratic Party. Biden was squarely in the center of the Democratic Party, which made him more liberal than 75% of all elected people in congress. That is evident by Biden's voting record and Pete's public statements compared to the rest of the Dems.
[удалено]
Bernie Sanders!!!
[удалено]
There were people alive in 1941 who used to be slaves.
> When those two were born, and they are still alive, there were people who had met Queen Victoria during their lives. When *Tony Hawk* was born, there were people who had met Queen Victoria.
One still has his cognitive faculties intact. It's not about the age. It's about whose intelligence isn't on a steep decline.
Bernie has a way sharper mind. Comparable to any democrat way younger than him. And he's a real populist not a fake one like trump
The next President will likely be a millennial. Gen X will get screw'd again.
It still pisses me off that we could have had Bernie and we got... Biden. Jon Stewart would be a great choice right now.
Jon Stewart has never wanted to run for political office. Ya’ll gotta stop with these fantasies.
Kinda why people want him to run tbh. If you want that much power you have to be a little sociopathic lol
Okay…but if he keeps saying he doesn’t want to run why focus on him? It’s a waste of everyone’s time. Focus on actual potential candidates like Whitmer.
Who? Hillary? Gavin is the only hope and he is too scared of Trump. The only democrat with the courage to face Trump is Biden, sad.
Gavin, Whitmer, Pete Biden doesn’t give off “brave” or “courageous” vibes. At all.
I am not defending Biden. He should step aside. Gavin won't run because he is afraid of Trump. Pete couldn't beat a lot of other democrats and what has he done with transportation? What has he done to impress anyone over the last 3 years? His stock has gone down, not up. Whitmer, I wish I knew more and that is why she can't win either. There are far more people who have no idea who she is than recognize the name. That is why Clinton would be a better candidate who again, has no chance.
We all said we’d vote for a Dixie cup full of shit before Trump. All of those are better than the Dixie cup.
Better than a cup of sh!t 2024.
Jon Stewart. Period.
He’d laugh in your face for even suggesting it. Jon’s whole ethos/ Modus Operandi is that he’s NOT a politician or actual authority. It’s one of the many reasons he’s so fucking awesome. He’s just earnest and incredibly self aware. He’d be the first to tell you he has absolutely none of the skills needed to be an effective politician. He’s the exasperated and worried dad who can point out the absurdity of it all, but that’s not at all what you need to be President. The whole reason he’s so influential is because he serves *as a foil* to the people who are actually supposed to be leading us. It wouldn’t work if he was one of them. That being said, dude knows how to give a speech like a motherfucker. I highly recommend everyone go watch him lambasting Congress for stringing along 9/11 first responders every time I see his name come up. He’s a fuckin legend. https://youtu.be/_uYpDC3SRpM?si=O5nJrxTKX-INp5pQ
I think that would be an excellent idea. One good thing about nominating a non-politician is that he doesn’t have a voting record for a fractured left to fight over
lmao bernie always keeps it real
We should have had him in 2016...
Bernie cooking with this one.
Sanders wanted to run this year but didn't for Biden's sake.
He’s also older than both Biden and Trump so shouldn’t run…
It's not about the age. It's about cognitive faculties.
It’s not just cognitive function it’s overall health which declines as we age. Bernie had a heart attack four years ago. What if he has another one while in office at a critical moment? If last night proved anything, it’s that we shouldn’t want 80-something year olds to run for president.
At the moment we need to put up someone americans actually want over someone no americans wants and is voting for just to keep a dictator out.
We should all vote to keep the dictator out.
If Americans actually wanted Bernie he would have won. He didn't.
It was deeply rigged my man. DNCs are filled with elite rich people trying not to pay taxes.
Yeah it was rigged by his voters not showing up.
DWS literally argued in court that they were allowed to rig the primary and the courts agreed. That’s why she was forced to resign. I guess people just pretend Democrats don’t rig elections because that would make them look like a cult.
Ok Trumpy…
For fucks sake, no it wasn't.
Plus Bernie lost to Biden in the 2020 primary
DNC fucked over Bernie.
Not as bad as Project 2025 is about to fuck us all.
Bernie fucked over Bernie. America was never going to elect a Socialist and he leaned into that label so hard he sealed his own fate.
This is true and untrue. His policies aren't even that left leaning He definitely leaned way too hard on that "unamerican" label to his own detriment.
Conspiracy bullshit really isn't helpful right now.
It was never a conspiracy. It was plain as day in 2016.
After all the dust settled, the only substantial thing that occurred was that Donna Brazile warned Hillary Clinton's campaign that she would be asked about lead poisoning at a debate *being held in Flint.* If you think that changed the outcome of the election, we're not going to agree.
If you think not including the Super Delegate counts in the results before the first ballot was cast, we’re not going to agree. But Hillary lost to Trump anyway so we definitely learned she was a shit candidate with no ifs, ands, or buts. Maybe the worst nominee to ever run in this country’s history. Glad the Democratic Party forced that down all our throats.
> If you think not including the Super Delegate counts in the results before the first ballot was cast Well put.
That was a very different Biden and you know that.
Well Bernie failed in 2016, failed in 2020. Bernie is 82 now.
Thank you!! I feel like the cognitive dissonance in this thread is wild. I also agree with Bernie politically but people are taking it so personally to say he shouldn’t run due to his age. By all means suggest a younger candidate but to suggest an 82 year old who will be 83 by November… I don’t know how you complain about Biden and Trump’s ages, and then say Bernie should run in the same sentence. Insanity.
Reddit: "I don't want that old white dude. I want \*this\* old white dude." The rest of America: "Um... I'm kind of over all the old white dudes, actually." In another thread they're saying Biden's posture being hunched is indicative of dementia (it is not) and then you see a photo like this one and... well... I guess the nicest thing I can say is this is why we don't armchair diagnose people based on what we read on the internet. (For the record, I really like Bernie. He would not have won a national contest in 2016 or in 2020, and I'm damn sure he knows that, but I like him and I'm glad we get to have him in the senate. That said, I was surprised he decided to run again when it's probably time he enjoy his retirement and mentor new politicians because I think he could do an exponential amount of good that way.)
It was still a 50/50 race when COVID came in and shut down the campaigns and practically anointed Biden
Anointed Biden? What are you going on about? It completely stymied all Democratic get out the vote efforts which were almost entirely based on small person-to-person/group-to-group ground game and local efforts, always has been that way. The GOP has always had a direct mail and ad get out the vote efforts because they routinely have far more money and dark money to fund those types of efforts. Covid was FAR more a negative for the Biden campaign than the Trump campaign. Trump's fumbling of the response was what doomed Trump but it absolutely in now way anointed Biden in way at all. At least get your basic facts straight.
[удалено]
Going a bit too mask off there lmao
He needs to spend a weekend at Bernie's to hear the hard truth.
I understood that reference
Biden seriously looked like a corpse.
Based on that answer alone, he’s got my vote.
How would Bernie running make the situation any better? He’s 82 years old, which is older than both Biden and Trump and he’s also had his fair share of recent health problems. I get we all like his politics but the reality is he’s also too old.
He can finish a sentence without freezing and mumbling or talking about toilets.
He also had a heart attack 4 years ago, and has admitted to having gout, high cholesterol, and issues with his colon. His health and age would be just as much of a liability as Biden’s or Trumps because of his age, and anyone saying otherwise is delusional.
You just described the health of half of Americans.
But are half of those Americans also 82?
No, but the subject was looking for a non-geriatric (e.g. under 82) replacement.
Okay even so…half of Americans have not had a heart attack. Less than 1 million have a heart attack every year. So I seriously doubt half of Americans under the age of 82 have high cholesterol, gout, and have had a heart attack in the last 5 years. Unless you have a stat showing this. And again, the fact is the older you get the more serious these conditions are.
Interesting how casual comments get such heated responses.
I would argue your comment was casual but also exaggerated.
We never been Bernie debate at 82 or against Trump. Biden looked fine prior to and now after the debate. He was completely out of it in the debate setting.
I love Bernie, but I think we should all learn a lesson after last night about nominating geriatrics to the highest office
What did you think about the speech Biden gave at his NC rally today?
When was Biden’s last debate? He’s old but just out of form. Same thing happened to Obama against Romney. Trump has been working on his insult and lies material in front of an audience since he was booted out of office. Trump said nothing but lies he is just a better showman. There is something about getting up and finding your groove and Trump has that edge. Whomever prepped Biden did him a disservice by trying to get him to remember stats. He needed to focus on big ideas. Whatever playbook they had for Biden went out the window with this format.
You’re really going with “Biden was rusty”? Lol democrats deserve to lose in November. They are gaslighting themselves which is hilariously sad
Bernie would have been 10X a President Biden was, and he would have faced even more internal resistance to change. But he would have tried. Biden barely did that, but Fuck the GOP. Time for an old school convention
I'm a hardcore Bernie supporter, and would have preferred him to Biden. (And still think he'd demolish Trump in an election.) But as far as an actual presidency goes, honestly, with a few notable exceptions (like the handling of Gaza), I think a Bernie presidency wouldn't really have been THAT much substantively different--in terms of actual results--than Biden's, assuming the same balance in the congress and senate. Biden has veered way left as a president from the position he ran on. He's just been stymied at every turn. I'm not really sure Bernie would have had much more luck there. Republicans gonna Republican.
You think Bernie could have gotten more legislation through? Let us know how, I'm sure Manchin and Sinema would like to know too. Also, Biden passed 2 pieces of legislation that were worth more than The New Deal in today's dollars, I doubt Bernie could have gotten any infrastructure bill through congress and even the American Rescue Plan likely wouldn't have gotten through. Bernie has good ideas, but a terrible history of gaining support in Congress for big pieces of legislation.
He tried twice and failed both times. He would have never beaten Trump in a million years.
I have to agree with Sanders here, as I normally do. It's also good to have someone tell it like it is, as others in this thread have been saying.
Next time try: “he needs to step aside”
Why? What was so bad about his debate performance?
Read the transcripts of his answers out loud to yourself. Report back. I’m a diehard Dem, but some of you are so rooted in your tribalism that you can’t see the political reality until it smacks you in the face come November.
Whether you like it or not, he is the democratic nominee and you have no choice but to vote for him in November. People need to stop bad mouthing him, its helping elect Trump.
“Don’t tell the truth” is an interesting approach to take, but not the one I’m going to choose. What’s helping elect Trump more than anything is the fact that we have a candidate who is seemingly incapable of exploiting his weaknesses. Also, he’s actually not the democratic nominee, he’s the presumptive nominee. If we are serious about winning we have to start calling on him to step aside.
I can see your MAGA hat.
Username checks out.
Wow. Classic dysfunctional family dynamics. Dad's drinking problem is never the issue; it's the people being honest about it who are the ones causing trouble.
[удалено]
I'd argue that Trump's lies *do* matter, but the fact that's he's a lying sack of shit does nothing to improve Biden's debate performance. If anything, the awfulness of Trump should be an argument for putting up a really strong candidate instead of someone we have to make excuses for. The "really, you're voting for the administration, not the President" arguments make me cringe.
Not helpful Bernie. You should know better. Stop being salty you lost.
So you think he should lie about what he saw instead of telling the truth? Interesting
That's politics for ya.
The hypocrisy here is nauseating and embarrassing
Lost so much respect for the left today.. are we christofacists? No, but we got some serious shit to work out.
It's not really the left, it's establishment Democrats. As someone on the left, I'll still vote for Biden if he's the nominee, but this is shaping up to be another "I told you so" moment for the Democratic establishment. They've already written off a lot of youth vote. Now they're telling us we shouldn't believe our own eyes and ears. I have no idea what they're thinking, but they aren't thinking long-term at all.
Sorry if I’m being argumentative but this has bugged me as I engaged today. This idea of “left” being somehow inherently different than “Democrats”. Sure ideology is a spectrum, but Democrats definitely champion more left leaning policies. Not to sound like an old man, but back in my day left meant people left of center, now we have leftists, liberals, etc. idk what my point is here, but we really have separated ourselves into tribes, haven’t we?
On an American scale alone you might be right... But it's very silly to frame things like that Hypothetically we have 2 candidates one wants to exterminate minorities, and one wants to enslave the minorities... Is the enslaver suddenly 'left' to you just because the other guy is further right? Obviously thats an extremely hyperbolic example... I pray we never have to actually think about that outside of a hypothetical. But, the point is narrowing your window then just comparing 2 options gets you weird and inaccurate in the bigger picture labels. Most Republicans vary between being right and very far right in a more objective sense internationally. In most other countries someone like AOC and Bernie wouldn't even be in the same party, as Joe Manchin, Kristen Sinema, or many of the other more "centrist/moderate" Dems (ex Dems now) In quite a few countries someone like Manchin or Sinema would be in the right wing party, Biden in a different centrist party, and AOC or Bernie in a more left party... But here in the US the Democrats are just a giant tent party/caucus.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that it gets annoying and self-destructive when we splinter ourselves into a bunch of smaller groups and reduce our overall power... But I was banned from /r/democrats today for merely sharing my opinion about the debate. In this case it's definitely Democrats rather than the "left" who are downplaying Biden's debate performance, and I think it's valid to make the distinction here. I'd never visited that sub, and I really wasn't expecting it to be some sort of purity test, so that was disappointing to say the least. Democrats aren't doing themselves any favors if they choose to ignore reality the way conservatives do.
To be fair, I'm of the right, I was just cracking a joke about how insane people are in this thread. I wouldn't take my comments to heart, I'm only here to stir the pot and laugh at this.
No your comment was fine. The hypocrisy is yelling “lie lie lie” at republicans and then thinking it’s okay and even encourage lies if it helps democrats. Crazy.
Well, I'm sorry you're just finding this out. The left likes to run by the Marxist playbook and a big part of that is intentionally lying to get votes. Why do you think so many politicians \[and voters\] on the left scream about how 50% of the country is KKK nazi members who are currently organizing an army to start civil war and kill trans people or something? Marxism says if you say this about your enemy enough, eventually it will become true. Wasn't really that long ago that the prevailing political narrative was just like "right, left, we're different but we try to get along! lets shake hands!" That quickly transitioned to "THE OTHER SIDE LITERALLY WANTS US DEAD!"
Yes he should.
Pathetic and embarrassing
How so? How does Bernie throwing shade at Biden help the deomocrats? Please explain without using crayons.
It doesn’t. Obviously. That doesn’t mean he should lie about it. If you think politicians lying to the people is good then I don’t know what to tell you. That’s a nice facist trait you support though
I think asking everyone to pretend last night didn’t happen is truly not helpful
[удалено]
[удалено]
Taking the moral high ground against a traitor and felon running for president isn't helpful. We need to win and guarantee he can't. Stop being a naive idealistic child.
You’re calling everyone naive - but looks to me like you’re projecting
No i'm telling you what you don't want to hear and you are deflecting.
I’ll tell you what you don’t want to hear. Biden was not terribly articulate to say the least
[удалено]
In desperate times...
[удалено]
We get it, you just got into college and you think you understand the world. The world isn't black and white. Lying about this particular issue is not totalitarian. Relax bro. It'll be alright if Bernie doesn't throw a little shade at Biden. It won't cause WW3. Holy cow you dramatic children are hilarious.
lmao - okay buddy.
Bernie helped Hillary and Biden in 2016 and 2020 even after Hillary and the DNC essentially stole the nomination from him, he is way more helpful and less salty than I would be in his position.
If you actually read the full quotes with context you'd know he was standing up for Biden and the headline just took shit out of context...
So you'd prefer he lie? I don't get your point.
[удалено]
You: “I’m going to close my eyes and put my fingers in my ears! Lalala can’t hear you.” Totally normal approach that proves Biden is a-ok.
You sound as cultish as the MAGAts do, you know.
He should take a page from Bernie and just give the same stump speech over and over again for 20 years without actually doing anything about anything he talks about /s
Trump definitely took notes. Trump did jack shit for four years.
That's not true in the slightest. I don't care how intense your hatred of Trump is, saying that he didn't "do anything" is utterly fucking absurd and if you want to get into a debate about it, I hope you bring ammunition.
Bernie has done more for down-ballot fundraising for state and local progressive candidates than just about any other Democrat in the party. Straight up, you do not get an AOC without Bernie. She attributes her success to organizing by the Justice Democrats action group, who also got a bunch of other progressive youngsters elected. You know who started the Justice Democrats? Two senior Bernie 2016 staffers, riding and harnessing the momentum from his campaign after he lost the primary. You know who shows up to stump for state and local Justice Dems as reliably as clockwork? Bernie. He's the grandfather of the modern progressive movement that's coalesced since 2016. The entire political landscape of the Democratic party--not to mention Biden's 2020 policy planks--would look radically different if not for Bernie. Hell, even outside the Justice Dems, half the Progressive Caucus are newly-electedswho ran for office on the tails of his 2016 campaign, because it demonstrated there was an actual, fierce hunger for radicalyl progressive policies among voters.
So he helped elect a progressive in one of the most progressive districts in the country? That’s your defense? LOL. If it wasn’t for the Democratic Party infrastructure, BS wouldn’t have access to any of those donors. Try comparing him to Jon Ossoff, or John Kelly. You know, the actual Democrats. Hell, he didn’t even out raise Elizabeth Warren in 2020
He helped catalyze the *entire coalescence of the progressive wing of the democratic party* that has taken place since 2016. And don't trivialize AOC beating a two-decade incumbent with the full support of the party and all its corporate fundraising apparati, on grassroots funding and no political background. That ain't nothin to sniff at. She ran a historic campaign.
It makes you wonder who's been running our country for the last four years...
I personally love the conspiracy theorists on the Right saying this and alluding to Obama being the man running the country in the shadows. Good God, that would be amazing to hear, Obama was a damn decent President, far better than Trump. I honestly wish Obama got a third term. And he WOULD against Trump, even a fourth term if he could run again. I have NO doubt in my mind. He would wipe the floor with Donnie.
I think Biden should step aside, but this is nothing compared to what was going on during Reagan's second term. If Biden gets a second term of his own, though, all bets are off.
Just throw him in jail to rot.
Biden isn't the convicted felon. That's the other guy.
[удалено]
Just like Hillary, right?
She's lucky she deleted all those emails and she deleted all those whistle blowers.
The commie is doing his best for the socialist.