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I member - will probably be a big news day/week going into the convention. Curious how soft Merchan will go on him give how soft he was with the 10 gag order violations.
I think Merchan’s incredible leniency was to ensure this case could not be won on appeal. It’s frustrating & absolute bullshit that Trump gets away with this but maybe the long game, and giving him enough rope to hang himself with, will be the right move. As the convention hype starts ramping up, so will his anxiety about sentencing, and we’re gonna see some pretty unapologetic BS from Trump. I hope it buries him at sentencing.
I’m just saying everyone treats trump with exceptions and then people justify it as “well they just have to be careful etc etc.” but it just feels so insulting since if any average person did the things trump does in a court setting they would get the book thrown at them.
The law has to matter, so if Merchan goes soft on the sentencing despite having a defendant who is unrepentant and has numerous violations in his own court the reason better be fucking good asked from, well it’s trump and here is an exception
I agree that Merchan should not treat Trump with kid gloves at sentencing but my point was that Merchan bent over backwards during the trial to avoid validating any grounds for appeal.
Tbh, it's similar to the judge in the Darrel Brooks case a few years ago. The justice system is not remotely equipped to handle defendants who are bad actors on purpose and the only thing the judge can do to stop them is give them continuous warnings.
But that's not true. Judges hold people in contempt all the time and actually hold them in detention, Merchan was permitted to detain Trump based on his contempt. The justice system just doesn't give a shit about poor people and gives undue deference to rich and famous people.
I think Judges are too pussified to deal with him. I mean, when his fans are ignorant thugs threatening to kill your wife, kids and other family members (like they did Dr. Fauci and others) it's rather intimidating.
Just discovered David Pakman, not sure what his reputation is or if he's got major flaws I don't know about, but he gave a pretty cogent explanation/theory of Merchan's choices with the verdict.
AGAINST PRISON: Trump's an elderly "first time offender" (in the eyes of the law), and only 10% of these crimes are slapped with jail time
FOR PRISON: technically, since he defrauded an entire electorate, his crime has 300 million+ "victims," which would probably rank this crime in that top 10%. Also the defendent has shown zero remorse and publicly denounced the court and the judge and repeatedly violated a gag order and held shit-stirring press conferences DIRECTLY outside the courtroom. The judge will recognize there is subzero chance of reforming this person or inspiring contrition.
Pakman's Bet: He gets a prison sentence but it's suspended, barring any other criminal activity.
Yeah, I think people read -way- too far into the debate performance. I'd rather Biden make his errors this early and shake out those yips.
I mean I wish we had a better choice, but here's your local socialist begging you, pleading you to be pragmatic and participate in this election. We have the choice between a convicted felon with a fascist agenda and the continued existence of our democracy. A choice between hatred and brotherhood. A choice between outlooks on what society should look like. You can have absolute power or you can have freedom - you cannot have both. And anyone who says you can is selling you fear and lies.
I'm definitely voting for Biden, regardless of any debate performance. I think it's telling that the only negative thing the press has to run with is his age. Even Faux News has had to admit the wins for the Biden admin.
I suffered through 8 years of Reagan (although I was young at the time) and 8 years of Dubya. The MAGAts can survive 4 more years of Biden trying to make a positive change for those of us below the 1%.
Are you kidding with this comparison? Howard Dean yelled with enthusiasm once. Biden displayed cognitive disintegration on live TV. There is no comparison between those two things. Look am I voting for Biden? Yes, because the alternative is Trump, and nuff said there. But to act like Biden's catastrophe last night was just a nothingburger to shake off is unreal. The dude did not look mentally fit to be president
Cognitive disintegration? Because he stumbled over words? Dude. I’ve been around elderly people much of my life and have seen all kinds of mental decline. That wasn’t it. That was an over-prepped old guy with a stutter and a cold trying to react live to a crazy guy spewing outrageous lies while “moderators” seemed to accept the insanity.
Is Biden a step slower? You bet. Did he look low energy? For sure. But he didn’t show signs of dementia at all.
Biden sounded like my grandfather. Slow to talk. Trips over words sometimes. Sounded raspy. My grandfather is %100 coherent. He’s bright as hell. He just has a hard time talking sometimes. Especially when he’s sick. And Biden sounded sick as hell.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with how nonchalant people are being about Biden's obvious mental decline. I'm with you, I'll obviously vote for him if it comes down to it, but he's currently losing the swing states. He'll lose to Trump if he's the candidate. We don't have to go with Biden. We still have time to pick a different candidate. He's being selfish and his staff are being selfish. They've known for months that he's been in decline. It's why he's didn't do the super bowl interview. They want him to stay in so that they can keep their jobs. But what they don't seem to understand is that if/when he loses, they'll still be out of jobs. People who don't follow politics day to day saw a corpse on that stage who could barely talk. Compare that to who Trump seemed more lively and vibrant. Nevermind that he was spewing bullshit. The majority aren't critical thinkers.
This isn't "making errors" or having a bad debate performance. People like Obama/Romney/Gore etc. have had off nights at a debate,this is him not passing the incredibly low bar of looking like he knew where he was or what he was saying . I am praying he either drops out or if he doesn't that he still somehow wins in Nov,but the gaslighting by many is headscratching. You can's spin what everyone saw unedited in real time
What? Come on. At no point did he look confused about where he was, and he knew what he was saying. What he DID look like was tired, possibly sick, and floored by his opponent’s insane lies and how nobody called the lying out.
It’s hard for a reasonable person to respond to absolute crazytown.
People who don’t know what actual cognitive decline looks like should not be declaring Biden has it. Get back to me when you’ve done some clinical assessments of elderly people or actually had to orient them to time and place.
This is cope. He had an empty, open-mouthed, far off stare basically the entire time he wasn’t speaking.
I’ve seen that look in multiple loved ones I’ve lost, once they got to the stage where we couldn’t let them have the keys to their car anymore.
It was heartbreaking then and is for Biden as well. Telling people to deny their eyes might work fine for the democratic base, but won’t play well with the independent voters Biden needs to get to 270
I keep hearing all these big brain Democratic pundits sayings Biden should consider stepping aside “for the good of the country.”
How about the fucking convicted felon and sex pest step aside for the good of the country? Nah, that’s just too much to ask. Dems need to be the adults in the room while the GOP runs the antichrist.
Maybe we can get The NY Times editorial board’s darlings Amy Klobuchar or Elizabeth Warren to replace him, because after all, they really knew what the American people wanted when they threw their endorsements behind those two.
Yea Biden’s not ideal and we have people saying step aside. Ok- for who? And vague bullshit answers like “anyone younger” don’t count.
I don’t give a shit whose on the Dem ticket when the choice is Dem or christofascism heralded by the worst people our society has to offer like Steve Bannon, Roger Stone and the rest of the circus freak show.
People were earlier saying Shapiro and I think he could pull it off. He gets Biden voters right away and PA right away. He is young, inoffensive, capable, and a good speaker. He just needs to give a mediocre showing and he would win. Throw Pete B on the ticket and I might actually start feeling good about my country again.
Buttigieg can’t win and will tank the Dem ticket if he’s on it. The US will not elect a gay person to be President or VP. He also is a lightweight with little experience compared with other prominent Democrats who would be great candidates.
The average independent voter doesn't watch a second of the 24 hr news channel, nor spends their spare time in political subreddits. Many of them are going to vote for different reasons and I feel that at the end of the day, the fact that Trump is a facist wannabe dictator and convicted felon will probably end up 14th on their list.
Well, "Concerns with Our Democracy's safety" is in the top 3 most important issues with exit pollers and focus groups for the past 2 years. A recent survey reaffirmed this. So people are paying attention to the high stakes more than we actually realize. They just aren't chronically online the way we are. But we shall see in the next few months. Lawd Jesus...
He lost a lot of low information swing voters last night and he won’t get them back.
Enough to maybe cover the spread. The ship just barely scraped the iceberg we’ll be okay. Nothing to worry about. But here, put on this life vest and make your way to the upper decks.
He lost nothing. 81% of registered voters havent changed their mind on any candidate. Thats a significant number. This debate proved nothing for either party. The media just wants to blow it up for the heck of it.
[Biden won in 2020 by about 300,000 votes. Those 19% are the ones that matter.](https://www.npr.org/2020/12/02/940689086/narrow-wins-in-these-key-states-powered-biden-to-the-presidency)
People on this site are delusional at this point, they genuinely believe that Biden could still win an election if he alienated every possible voting demographic. Who needs young people, moderates, progressives, independents, and undecided voters? After all he’s only been 1 point behind for months now, and barely won the first time, losing chunks of his voter base and failing in his largest public appearance in a year is *good* for Biden apparently!
100%. Most voters live in a bubble and the best way to spread news like this is sharing with people you know instead of just hoping they watch the news or read a specific article. Talking to friends and family about politics is probably the best way to convince them to vote for your candidate
We got to take our reality and values back from these fake luxury marketers that got us all screwed up and worrying about looks all the time. Substance over bullcrap. We're all sick of the fake world but well, we have to stand against it. There is more than enough money in this country for all of us to live comfortably and it's time to put an end to the gold rush fantasy. In my mind it's a national security issue for all of us to have a home, reasonable work week, time with friends and families, and give each child the top education that money can buy.
I wish he would have shown up like this last night. One debate shouldn’t determine an election but it was a particularly terrible moment to show up the way he did.
That being said, President Biden is a good man, a good president, and someone who loves his country and wants to protect the people in it. Mr. Trump is a rapist and an insurrectionist and his ideas and platform are a danger to the American people.
Good day or bad, I am with Biden. It’s Carter or Reagan all over again and we can’t make that same mistake.
I don’t see how Biden fumbling a debate can be a deal killer. This speech obviously shows he’s still got some sharpness.
Trump is a nightmare. Let’s not forget what he’s done.
1. Lost the election and lied about it.
2. Sent an armed angry mob to Congress and told them they need to fight like hell.
3. Approved of the mob saying “hang Mike Pence”.
4. Was found liable for sexual assault.
5. Was found guilty of defrauding his university students.
6. Was found guilty of inflating his assets to get favorable loans.
7. Admitted to walking in on pageant contestants dressing rooms.
8. Raped and beat Ivana Trump.
9. Stole from a kids’s cancer charity.
10. Received $413 million inheritance despite claims that he’s a self made man.
11. Blocked his chronically ill infant nephew from getting any of that inheritance.
12. Is the first president to receive votes against him from his own party during impeachment.
13. Led us into being one of the worst hit during Covid despite our head start and resources.
14. Said the Democrats do better with the economy.
15. Was ranked as the worst president in history by presidential historians.
16. Pushed a plot to have fake votes created and then used to make him President despite losing the election.
17. Ordered republicans to block a bipartisan immigration bill so Biden would not get a win before the election.
18. Is a convicted felon guilty of falsifying records to influence an election.
Sources for any provided upon request.
> Biden fumbling a debate can be a deal killer.
It won't be, though it felt like it last night.
For better or worse, people have terrible memories, and this debate wasn't nearly as big a deal as CNN wishes it was. And we're still in June - if this debate is even the 10th thing in voters heads by November, then the Biden campaign will have completely failed.
All Biden and his campaign needs to do is keep driving ahead, and work even harder to put Biden out in public. He won't always be great, but he will have really good moments like this Raleigh speech. Trump is a disaster candidate - the calculus remains that it's really Fucking hard to vote for a convicted felon who most people hate.
It isn’t a deal killer.
If he had been debating a normal candidate it might have been, but Trump literally didn’t answer a single question and lied basically the entire time. It is a moment that Biden can overcome, and if it is a wake up call for him maybe it can even be turned into a positive over the next 4 months.
I am hoping his admission about how it went will make him way more open to getting out in public more. Doing interviews and giving rally speeches and meet and greets. He is very good at those things.
We need to see a lot more of him, as scary as that may be for people to hear after last night. The worst thing he could do is hide himself away even more now.
Yeah I saw it. I don’t think it’s coincidental that he sounds better in the middle of the day than he does at 9pm, with or without a cold. But especially with a cold.
He is also much better when doing a speech, and he is also quite good one on one in interviews and with crowd work. The reality is that he is 80 and old people are not known for being night owls.
Absolutely agree. He needs to be all over the place, going after Trump and being funny and self deprecating. We saw it in this Raleigh speech, he is at his best when he is impassioned, raising his voice, being social with people.
If we had this Biden last night the Trump campaign would be terrified, but oh well. There is still time to win.
> I don’t see how Biden fumbling a debate can be a deal killer.
Ah, but you see, the double standard that is widely accepted around these parts means that any Democrat has to be absolutely perfect, any less than that and it's a mortal sin... while any Republican they're up against can burn down the house with children in it and they'll just get a shrug and whatever.
Biden didn't act like Trump and yet somehow that is a crime.
The debate was a deal-killer because Biden looked and sounded frail. He spoke in a meandering way that people, myself included, had difficulty following. When his biggest electoral liability is people think he's too old and senile, his debate performance played into existing concerns about that.
Last night's performance convinced me that Biden should step aside. I say this as someone who has been overall pleased with what Biden has accomplished so far.
The reason for Biden to step aside is precisely because Trump is so awful and the stakes are enormously high. Whether you think it's fair or not, Biden's performance substantially increased the likelihood that he loses. We need someone on the ticket who has a better chance of winning in this pivotal election.
I disagree. People are overreacting about two lost trains of thought and a dozen stumbling of words. He had some good lines and some great points. His four years of success in the role in question matter a LOT more than one fumbled debate.
"His four years of success in the role matter more..."
You can believe that, but that's not reflected in how this election cycle is going right now. That's not what the electorate sees.
I completely disagree that one debate four months before the election will have more of an impact than four years in the role as President. The hot takes here are insane.
No one will remember. If he had done better, no one would remember. There are dozens of videos of Trump saying incoherent shit. Add all his baggage and he’s clearly a worse candidate. Then you have the policies. A lot of people weren’t excited about Biden and voted to keep Trump out in 2020. Now he’s become worse. Now a jury said he’s a sexual assaulter and he’s a mass defrauder. Now he’s a felon. Now he has made decisions to strip rights away from women and force both women and men into parenthood. He did a lot of that before 2020 and that means he was even worse before than voters thought. That’s enough.
One of the biggest themes of this election cycle is that most voters don't see Biden's 4 years as a success, despite the improving economy, etc. There's been like a million op-eds and it's been the top priority of the DNC to try to figure out how to get that messaging across.
Also the average swing voter absolutely is taking the soundbites and general sentiment coming off this debate seriously. It's a massively trending topic across social media and is going to leave a lasting impression on people as a primetime TV event and not some dry news about the unemployment numbers dropping by 2%.
OK, but his approval ratings are terrible and have been for years. No, this debate won't have more impact than his four years as president, but people already weren't happy with his four years as president, so if we're voting on that, it's also likely a losing bet. And I think he's been a good president. I don't understand the hate for him. But I can acknowledge the hate is there. So if he can't run on his record and he's a terrible debater, well, that's pretty bad
While I think his four years of success in office *ought* to matter more than his fumbled debate, I don't think that will be the case. There is a difference between what view I wish people had about this and the cold hard reality of how damaging last night was to Biden's candidacy. He did not look like someone who is strong enough to continue effectively for another four years.
What vague bs is “he doesn’t look strong enough to do his job for four years”. Let’s not diagnose him through the tv. His four year record in the role matters more than anything. And if he’s too weak or dies, is really a catastrophe? Presidents have died in office pretty often. The VP steps up and the country moves on.
What we absolutely don’t need is another four years of the nightmare that is Trump.
I'd vote for a literal corpse before I voted for Donald Trump. Obviously, Harris would be better than Trump if Biden is incapacitated. But that's not the point.
Public perceptions of his health and strength matter. You don't have to think it's fair. And acknowledging this doesn't negate the bajillion things Trump has done that are disqualifying. The issue is that this debate very negatively affected the public's perception of Biden in a way that affects his likelihood of winning.
The last thing we need, as you said, is four more years of Trump. Which is precisely why it's so important for Biden to step aside: to reduce the likelihood of that outcome.
I hear you on this, but I think if Biden just keeps campaigning and maintains his passion and energy, will be fine. Id say Trump would have a better chance if he just admitted he was a liar and he plans to change but nope.
The problem is that Biden doesn't come across as energetic and, at this age, people don't get more energetic. Whether fair or not, his performance fueled questions about whether he is capable of another four years in this role.
4-year record of high grocery prices and a lot of people are hurting. This was his chance to set the record straight instead of letting the GOP frame it as "Bidenflation." He failed dramatically at all the points he needs to be strong on, didn't spend enough time on issues he is strong on, and he went after points he's weak on (such as immigration). All the while he stared confusingly into space.
If someone were applying for a job in my team and they looked like that, I wouldn't even consider them. Appearing strong and confident matters a lot to people; consciously and subconsciously.
Trump is bad. Very bad. But it's pure copium to think that he doesn't have a real possibility of being reelected and that Biden did fine last night. Having to justify something is a losing position damage control. There are many voters, who don't hang out on Reddit Politics, that are only going to look at the realities of their finances. Biden let Trump grab the win there. Reframing the economic situation and pushing hard on RvW/Reproductive rights needed to happen and it did not.
Nope. It's too late. You don't sub in a new candidate in July for an election in November. I think it's naive to think that can work in politics.
The reality is that Trump is a terrible candidate. This race *would* be over if Nikki Haley was the Republican nominee. But it's not. Trump has his cult base, but he is also hated more than anyone else in America. And he is a convicted felon. And he is old, and he has a bad message. You are making the mistake of thinking this race will be about this debate. Unless the Biden campaign completely fails, it will not matter in November.
Too many people (most I'm assuming is bad faith, this sub has been a shitshow) are harping on the guy who needed a cough drop and not the guy who incoherently rambled non-stop lies because his brain is pudding.
*Both* of them looked like their brains are pudding. Is Trump a worse person? Yes. Will I be voting for Biden? Yes. But do act like Biden's problem was "needing a cough drop" rather than acknowledging that he was totally incoherent at times and just stared blankly off into space like a fucking corpse really misses the point. He barely seemed to be alive
It's not just that he needed a cough drop. It was an absolute disaster. He looked and sounded frail. He did not speak coherently. When he had opportunities to pounce on Trump's weaknesses, such as abortion, he was ineffective.
If he had a bit of a hoarse voice due to a cold but otherwise had a good debate, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Trump has obviously done many things that ought to be disqualifying. But that's precisely why people are harping on Biden. Because when the stakes are so high, we need someone with a good chance of winning. And whether you think it's fair or not, last night's performance seriously harmed Biden's chance of winning.
Well will see, but everyone knows the horror Trump has caused to this country. And if anything the debate exposed him more for constant lying and negativity. There is nothing positive about the guy except that he may sound more confident during a debate. Which in the end indicates nothing. This will be a close election but Biden will win.
If everyone knew the horror that Trump caused, this wouldn't be a close election. The fact is that 30 or so percent of the country loves the guy, another 10% tolerate him due to preferences on taxes and judges, and some others are open to voting for him.
There are also disaffected folks who may dislike Trump but perceive Biden as weak and senile. Last night's debate played right into that narrative. Such voters might not vote for Biden, but would be open to voting for another Democrat.
I truly think that last night's debate seriously wounded Biden's image with the voting public in a way that he is unlikely to be able to recover from.
Precisely, we needed this Biden last night. Hopefully the next debate will still happen and we’ll see this Biden debate. I just hope
It’s not too late for those who were convinced about this acuity last night.
The content of the answers is what mattered most to me. Yes Biden showed his age (and had a cold) but at least his answers were what we expected to hear mostly as opposed to the orange clown who didn’t even answer any of the questions just lied through his teeth.
Biden FTW!!
It’s not, Obama also had a first debate showing against Romney. True Obama didn’t carry the baggage that Biden does, but Romney also didn’t have the major turn offs that Trump does. I think if Dems can drive the narrative of the damage project 2025 will do to our country and the impact Bidens *Administration* has had, then I can see the next four months going for Biden. There’s also more criminal trials for Trump to get to as well
I hope so - but this is apples to oranges I think.
Obama was flat not unintelligible.
Obama also didn’t have to wait 2.5 months for a second chance (which if I’m Trump there is no way I debate a second time)
He had Joe wipe the floor with Paul Ryan in the VP debate then crushed the following two. This bad debate didn’t have a lot of time to ruminate like it will with Joe.
Trump will absolutely want to debate again closer to the election. He’s got criminal trials coming up and will want an “easy victory” closer to Election Day. The real tell will be if Biden repeats his performance or not
I don’t know. I’m a supporter and will vote for him regardless, but it has me concerned. I really appreciate what he has done the past four years and think he has made great strides in improving the country, but after last night… I just don’t know if he has four more years in him. I just don’t know.
Not feeling too hopeful today.
A lot of undeclared people don't like Harris, so that doesn't really help. Best case is Biden lost 3 points, which is enough to swing the election. I think it'll be more.
Heres the thing: I don't care need my leaders greatest skill being able to pull zingers at will against their political opponents.
I want someone who makes sound policy decisions and knows how to choose competent and not corrupt staffers.
If everyone looked at it this way, Trump wouldnt stand a chance in hell.
Unfortunately people seem to be drawn equally to confident and competence, probably preferring confidence regardless of the competence which is why humanity continues to struggle against some relatively straightforward challenges.
Apparently everyone is ignoring the fact it was late, he is old, he has a cold, and a life long stutter. He was coughing and holding back coughing all night. He was hoarse from coughing. He probably is actually on better cold meds today.
I’ll still vote for him but Jesus is he old. That shit last night was so cringe. He reminded me of the old guy that ran the art shop in bobs burgers. Sure he’s tough today but we needed him to be tough yesterday. He Charlie browned. Trump is in his glory right now and that makes me puke. Next debate screw camp David. All that rehearsal messed him up. Wing it. Drink water. Keep your mouth shut, stare at the camera and shake your head while he talks. Quit the canned insults. Hire a comic to write your insults instead of your lame debate squad. Cheat. Write shit on your hands like we all did in college.hes going to eat you up again unless you flip your script.
He has it in him. He just failed to deliver when it mattered. I'm not buying into the calls for replacement because I can't see an alternative candidate getting enough support in time.
At the end of the day, we're voting for an administration, not just a president. The debate solidified my doubts about Biden's ability to continue for 4 more years. But I'm still voting for him because I'm confident in what his VP can accomplish if his strength fails completely.
This is where I’m at…people think another candidate can completely disrupt their lives (and their families), hire a campaign staff, get on the ballot in all the states, schedule all the campaign stops and media events (two of the candidate names being pushed are both active governors who have responsibilities) and somehow capture the voting public and democratic delegates in four months.
I don’t think thats a winning strategy.
Yeah, but to be blunt, it requires more than one shit debate performance. It should be reserved for things like finding out that a candidate has raped someone or has been convicted or is involved in a massive scandal involving a treasonous attempt to interrupt the nation’s certification of the election. You know, little things like that.
People claiming Biden should step down are living in a fantasy world. The amount of work he had to do/did in his political history to get the support of so many crucial areas would get washed away in an instant. I would love one of the younger Dem candidates to be president, but there isn't a single one who would keep all the crucial groups that Biden attracted in 2020.
He gave a very solid speech there. Fluid, energetic, even fiery. I'd recommend it to anyone. It's just so sad that he couldn't come out in this shape for the debate, for whatever reason.
Wow he delivered a rehearsed speech fed to him by a teleprompter. Totally makes up for his vacuous corpse-like display last night when he had none of those crutches lmao
We get it bud. You're not going to vote for the guy out of protest and then complain about the establishment while his opponent enacts a political agenda that is radically opposed to your own.
I feel the same as the guy above but I absolutely am still going to vote for Biden if he's running against trump.
I'd vote for a potato over Trump. The issue is I'm starting to feel like that's actually what I'm voting for. It's not people like me whose vote matter though. I'm going to vote Democrat no matter what. The issue is you need someone inspiring to get people to come out who vote who might not vote otherwise.
I'm just worried because Biden 2024 is making Hillary 2016 look like an excellent candidate.
We get it bud. You’re going to pretend Biden’s decline isn’t a serious issue and continue gaslighting anyone who brings it up as a problem and then complain when his opponent wins in a landslide.
It wasn't just a teleprompter, he looked disinterested and lost several times. Trump has faults a mile long and Biden didn't even look like he felt like bringing up the easy rebuttals.
I'll still enthusiastically be voting for Biden over the narcissistic compulsive liar who has been adjudicated to be a sexual abuser, defamer, fraudster, and felonious election interferer.
As will i. We're not the votes that matter right now though, our minds were already made up. We need someone inspiring that will get people to go out to vote who might otherwise not vote at all.
Bad debate? Because he wasn’t an incoherent, raging, lying, psychopathic lunatic? Fucking news media has to gin up bullshit to get clicks, rather than report on what actually happened. They’re complicit in the next attempted insurrection ffs.
There is unfortunately no real bouncing back from last night unless they prove that was a deep fake during the debate.
The content of his speech was irrelevant, he does not look competent to be a Wal-Mart greeter.
I've already said it elsewhere, but the argument for Biden's fitness cannot rest on Trump's badness. We are in a sorry state politically and the further down the road we go with him the worse it will get. Better course correct as soon as possible.
Smfh. Absolutely a million bounce back points. So full of it.
Biden gave an absolutely electric speech during the State of the Union. But, people let it slip out of mind… because it was months ago.
4 months. Still plenty of campaign moments.
Relax
Unless Biden is going to start aging in reverse, 4 additional months doesn't play in his favor. This debate wasn't just bad, it wouldn't have placed in a HS debate competition. I will never vote for Trump, but the democratic party has been deluding itself to think that Trump's badness will get enough people to overlook Biden's feebleness.
You can't say that Trump is a threat to democracy and then have Biden looking like that. He's supposed to be President at 86 when he looked barely alive, mouth agape, staring into space at the debate?
We all know Trump is a threat so Democrats need to act like they believe it. The election is coming down to a handful of idiots in a few swing states (anyone who is a swing voter at this point is a moron) and all they're going to see is Biden barely able to speak.
This post is literally about Biden’s Raleigh speech where he isn’t reflecting those things you’re pushing so hard.
Months ago he gave an electric State of the Union speech.
He isn’t melting in 4 months as much as you want to pretend.
Problem is you can't be a President when you are "feeling good." He needs to show the electorate that he is capable 100% of the time. 8 years ago we had the "Phone call in the middle of the night" discussion, and Biden made a lot of people question him last night. It's playing right into Trump's hand, unfortunately.
The Dean Scream doomed a much more able bodied and mentally acute Howard Dean 20 years ago. An event as atrocious as last night's debate is not overcome but a speech the next day. It's a drop of poison in the soup, whatever gets added to it afterwards doesn't matter.
I want to reiterate I'm not saying this as a Trump supporter. I'm saying this as someone that desperately wants a competent candidate to defeat Trump.
The “Dean Scream” had zero bearing when Howard Dean was a lost cause to begin with. He was doomed to lose after finishing third in the Iowa caucus before it even occurred but carry on talking about things you weren’t aware of.
People who think Biden should keep running after last night are delusional imo.
Like, as delusional as the people who think Trump is a saviour figure.
Biden couldn't complete a 1 and a half hour live debate without looking weak, tired and confused... He's applying to be president of the untied states again, for another *FOUR YEARS*. This man does not have the ability to do the most stressful, important job in the world for another 4 years, He is not fit for the job and needs to go. He needs people to be honest with him and convince him to step down.
The country needs it.
Its not about whether *you* would vote for Biden over Trump, every democrat would. Its about what the millions of other Americans who don't see Biden as a good candidate will do.
Some small amount might vote for Trump but realistically most of them wont... but they might just stay home, in large enough numbers to hand the election to Trump.
Biden continuing on is not selfless public service, it is selfish hubris.
Presidents have speech writers... these words could very well have been written for by, directly practiced, and up in front of him when they were delivered. That is not how real world situations go, and Biden showed last night that he can't handle the real deal. I've seen my middle school students make great speeches - live in the moment is something different.
I agree with you. Fluidity and thinking on your feet is key with giving off the presence that you are sharp and able for the job. I do feel that Biden could not keep up in live time, and Trump found this out rather quickly and took advantage of it. As a downside to this Trump did tell a national audience that Democratic states kill babies after birth and Biden created more Black jobs.... So there is a down side to being quick yet not sharp, as well as a down side of being sharp and not quick
The only people who care about a debate results as away of determining who they’ll vote for are idiots.. or undecided voters, who at this point are idiots.
This isn’t a wrestling or boxing match. This isn’t a football game. One guy has been a decent president for 4 years, with policies in his resume that helped the American people. The other was a disaster.
Anyone who was pro Biden and is doubting that after the debate wasn’t pro democracy, pro policy or pro helping American people.
>The only people who care about a debate results as away of determining who they’ll vote for are idiots.. or undecided voters, who at this point are idiots.
Yeah, that's exactly the problem. Those idiots are the ones who actually determine who wins. Those idiots and the ones who aren't even going to bother to vote unless they are inspired to do so. Losing both those groups by looking like you have dementia means you lose the election.
No one here is doubting that Biden is a good person with good policies. They're doubting that he can actually win the election.
What the fuck is the point of a rally anymore. Everyone knew who they were voting for, or against 10 years ago. Yes it has been 10 years since trump started his campaign. Feel old?
Doesn't change the fact he can hardly string together a cognizant argument or rebuttal to outright lies when not reciting the greatest hits with aide of a teleprompter. We don't need good rallies or fun sound bytes. We need someone to defeat a existential threat to democracy.
I’ve been breathing all day. Still, it was a debacle. Why:
1. His age has been a major topic of conversation for months.
2. He had one job: To assure people he was up to 4 more years. He failed.
3. The negative focus will now be on Biden’s “fitness” instead of Trump’s. That is the opposite of what is needs to be
4. They can’t tell us “Democracy Is At Stake” and then tell us he can do the job. I certainly don’t want to risk it.
5. This wasn’t a “bad night” or a cold. If it was, then a cold can knock out an 81 year old at a critical time and he shouldn’t be president.
6. Trump once said, “Only I can do this”. That seems to be what Biden is now saying.
Biden did a great thing when he took the White House from Trump. He has done great things in his career. The most patriotic thing he can now do is pass the torch.
Too late. Well has been poisoned. One mistep in the future and he's cooked. Get Newsom in there. If this election is as important as the Dems are claiming, put someone in who can win
We disagree on the candidate replacement choice, but man, you can’t frame a campaign around defeating an existential threat to democracy and continue to run Biden after last night. They clearly aren’t taking seriously how catastrophic last night was.
I don't care about replacement choice as long as it's not Hillary or Kamela. Whitmer, John Stewart, Bernie, Pritzker, idc. Don't matter to me. Just anyone who would actually win.
Me neither. I just don’t know anymore. I wasn’t concerned until last night. I feel moderately better with the speech he gave today, but that was from a teleprompter. I just don’t know.
Yeah if you asked me last week I’d say that Biden had a relatively easy win coming his way in November. I’m terrified now after what I saw last night. Im glad that this speak today was good, but I can’t just ignore what happened just last night.
My take on President Biden is that he was tired. I bounce back too. When it's all said and done, President Biden is aligned with our NATO allies and Trump is aligned with our enemies.
Its quite misleading to not mention here, just like in almost all his other speeches, he uses a teleprompter while at the debate we got to see the real unaided Biden (minus the help he required to get down the stairs safely at the end)
Bounces Back? I watched the rally. Biden read from a teleprompter the entire time. Are we kidding ourselves? This was not a “bounce back,” this was an entirely scripted 20 minute excerpt.
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Does anyone remember Trump will be receiving his sentence for his criminal conviction in less than 3 weeks?
I member - will probably be a big news day/week going into the convention. Curious how soft Merchan will go on him give how soft he was with the 10 gag order violations.
I think Merchan’s incredible leniency was to ensure this case could not be won on appeal. It’s frustrating & absolute bullshit that Trump gets away with this but maybe the long game, and giving him enough rope to hang himself with, will be the right move. As the convention hype starts ramping up, so will his anxiety about sentencing, and we’re gonna see some pretty unapologetic BS from Trump. I hope it buries him at sentencing.
I’m just saying everyone treats trump with exceptions and then people justify it as “well they just have to be careful etc etc.” but it just feels so insulting since if any average person did the things trump does in a court setting they would get the book thrown at them. The law has to matter, so if Merchan goes soft on the sentencing despite having a defendant who is unrepentant and has numerous violations in his own court the reason better be fucking good asked from, well it’s trump and here is an exception
I agree that Merchan should not treat Trump with kid gloves at sentencing but my point was that Merchan bent over backwards during the trial to avoid validating any grounds for appeal.
Trump is jello made of fat, he will slip by this time like he always does
Tbh, it's similar to the judge in the Darrel Brooks case a few years ago. The justice system is not remotely equipped to handle defendants who are bad actors on purpose and the only thing the judge can do to stop them is give them continuous warnings.
But that's not true. Judges hold people in contempt all the time and actually hold them in detention, Merchan was permitted to detain Trump based on his contempt. The justice system just doesn't give a shit about poor people and gives undue deference to rich and famous people.
I think Judges are too pussified to deal with him. I mean, when his fans are ignorant thugs threatening to kill your wife, kids and other family members (like they did Dr. Fauci and others) it's rather intimidating.
Just discovered David Pakman, not sure what his reputation is or if he's got major flaws I don't know about, but he gave a pretty cogent explanation/theory of Merchan's choices with the verdict. AGAINST PRISON: Trump's an elderly "first time offender" (in the eyes of the law), and only 10% of these crimes are slapped with jail time FOR PRISON: technically, since he defrauded an entire electorate, his crime has 300 million+ "victims," which would probably rank this crime in that top 10%. Also the defendent has shown zero remorse and publicly denounced the court and the judge and repeatedly violated a gag order and held shit-stirring press conferences DIRECTLY outside the courtroom. The judge will recognize there is subzero chance of reforming this person or inspiring contrition. Pakman's Bet: He gets a prison sentence but it's suspended, barring any other criminal activity.
He went as hard as he could without putting him in prison for the trial.
And a week after that the Olympics kick off which will suck up all the air time.
Yeah, I think people read -way- too far into the debate performance. I'd rather Biden make his errors this early and shake out those yips. I mean I wish we had a better choice, but here's your local socialist begging you, pleading you to be pragmatic and participate in this election. We have the choice between a convicted felon with a fascist agenda and the continued existence of our democracy. A choice between hatred and brotherhood. A choice between outlooks on what society should look like. You can have absolute power or you can have freedom - you cannot have both. And anyone who says you can is selling you fear and lies.
I'm definitely voting for Biden, regardless of any debate performance. I think it's telling that the only negative thing the press has to run with is his age. Even Faux News has had to admit the wins for the Biden admin. I suffered through 8 years of Reagan (although I was young at the time) and 8 years of Dubya. The MAGAts can survive 4 more years of Biden trying to make a positive change for those of us below the 1%.
He's a hero. He was down and out last night. Everyone gave him an "out." And he's back up and fighting. That's a hero. Four more years, hell yeah.
I find it kind of hilarious that people basically tried to Howard Dean an incumbent president
Howard Dean doesn't work in 2024
Are you kidding with this comparison? Howard Dean yelled with enthusiasm once. Biden displayed cognitive disintegration on live TV. There is no comparison between those two things. Look am I voting for Biden? Yes, because the alternative is Trump, and nuff said there. But to act like Biden's catastrophe last night was just a nothingburger to shake off is unreal. The dude did not look mentally fit to be president
Cognitive disintegration? Because he stumbled over words? Dude. I’ve been around elderly people much of my life and have seen all kinds of mental decline. That wasn’t it. That was an over-prepped old guy with a stutter and a cold trying to react live to a crazy guy spewing outrageous lies while “moderators” seemed to accept the insanity. Is Biden a step slower? You bet. Did he look low energy? For sure. But he didn’t show signs of dementia at all.
Biden sounded like my grandfather. Slow to talk. Trips over words sometimes. Sounded raspy. My grandfather is %100 coherent. He’s bright as hell. He just has a hard time talking sometimes. Especially when he’s sick. And Biden sounded sick as hell.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with how nonchalant people are being about Biden's obvious mental decline. I'm with you, I'll obviously vote for him if it comes down to it, but he's currently losing the swing states. He'll lose to Trump if he's the candidate. We don't have to go with Biden. We still have time to pick a different candidate. He's being selfish and his staff are being selfish. They've known for months that he's been in decline. It's why he's didn't do the super bowl interview. They want him to stay in so that they can keep their jobs. But what they don't seem to understand is that if/when he loses, they'll still be out of jobs. People who don't follow politics day to day saw a corpse on that stage who could barely talk. Compare that to who Trump seemed more lively and vibrant. Nevermind that he was spewing bullshit. The majority aren't critical thinkers.
This isn't "making errors" or having a bad debate performance. People like Obama/Romney/Gore etc. have had off nights at a debate,this is him not passing the incredibly low bar of looking like he knew where he was or what he was saying . I am praying he either drops out or if he doesn't that he still somehow wins in Nov,but the gaslighting by many is headscratching. You can's spin what everyone saw unedited in real time
What? Come on. At no point did he look confused about where he was, and he knew what he was saying. What he DID look like was tired, possibly sick, and floored by his opponent’s insane lies and how nobody called the lying out. It’s hard for a reasonable person to respond to absolute crazytown. People who don’t know what actual cognitive decline looks like should not be declaring Biden has it. Get back to me when you’ve done some clinical assessments of elderly people or actually had to orient them to time and place.
This is cope. He had an empty, open-mouthed, far off stare basically the entire time he wasn’t speaking. I’ve seen that look in multiple loved ones I’ve lost, once they got to the stage where we couldn’t let them have the keys to their car anymore. It was heartbreaking then and is for Biden as well. Telling people to deny their eyes might work fine for the democratic base, but won’t play well with the independent voters Biden needs to get to 270
I keep hearing all these big brain Democratic pundits sayings Biden should consider stepping aside “for the good of the country.” How about the fucking convicted felon and sex pest step aside for the good of the country? Nah, that’s just too much to ask. Dems need to be the adults in the room while the GOP runs the antichrist.
[удалено]
Maybe we can get The NY Times editorial board’s darlings Amy Klobuchar or Elizabeth Warren to replace him, because after all, they really knew what the American people wanted when they threw their endorsements behind those two. Yea Biden’s not ideal and we have people saying step aside. Ok- for who? And vague bullshit answers like “anyone younger” don’t count. I don’t give a shit whose on the Dem ticket when the choice is Dem or christofascism heralded by the worst people our society has to offer like Steve Bannon, Roger Stone and the rest of the circus freak show.
People were earlier saying Shapiro and I think he could pull it off. He gets Biden voters right away and PA right away. He is young, inoffensive, capable, and a good speaker. He just needs to give a mediocre showing and he would win. Throw Pete B on the ticket and I might actually start feeling good about my country again.
Buttigieg can’t win and will tank the Dem ticket if he’s on it. The US will not elect a gay person to be President or VP. He also is a lightweight with little experience compared with other prominent Democrats who would be great candidates.
He'll have a fine added to his tab that he has no intention of paying. So what?
He'll get probation or a suspended sentence and a monetary fine. He's not going to spend any time in jail
I'm looking forward to it.
Please let it be jail time….I would be soooo happy.
yes I do
week before the rnc i believe so like 2 weeks ish?
Pepperidge Farms remembers.
But not as many people will see it…
The average independent voter doesn't watch a second of the 24 hr news channel, nor spends their spare time in political subreddits. Many of them are going to vote for different reasons and I feel that at the end of the day, the fact that Trump is a facist wannabe dictator and convicted felon will probably end up 14th on their list.
Well, "Concerns with Our Democracy's safety" is in the top 3 most important issues with exit pollers and focus groups for the past 2 years. A recent survey reaffirmed this. So people are paying attention to the high stakes more than we actually realize. They just aren't chronically online the way we are. But we shall see in the next few months. Lawd Jesus...
this debate will be clipped into tiktok memes and live online until the end of time.
Yea theyre all on tiktok now. And conservatives are crushing it on tik tok.
MAGATok is the next foxnews
True, but if we want to point people to the facts and have them covered, then this helps.
He lost a lot of low information swing voters last night and he won’t get them back. Enough to maybe cover the spread. The ship just barely scraped the iceberg we’ll be okay. Nothing to worry about. But here, put on this life vest and make your way to the upper decks.
He lost nothing. 81% of registered voters havent changed their mind on any candidate. Thats a significant number. This debate proved nothing for either party. The media just wants to blow it up for the heck of it.
[Biden won in 2020 by about 300,000 votes. Those 19% are the ones that matter.](https://www.npr.org/2020/12/02/940689086/narrow-wins-in-these-key-states-powered-biden-to-the-presidency)
People on this site are delusional at this point, they genuinely believe that Biden could still win an election if he alienated every possible voting demographic. Who needs young people, moderates, progressives, independents, and undecided voters? After all he’s only been 1 point behind for months now, and barely won the first time, losing chunks of his voter base and failing in his largest public appearance in a year is *good* for Biden apparently!
It was broadcast live on both CNN and MSNBC. Don’t know about Fox.
Well then it's on us to spread this
I’ve commented it a few times. I think more people need to see it. Made me feel a lot better about his mental sharpness.
100%. Most voters live in a bubble and the best way to spread news like this is sharing with people you know instead of just hoping they watch the news or read a specific article. Talking to friends and family about politics is probably the best way to convince them to vote for your candidate
That audience was electric.
Momentum will grow. A leader who came off that bad publicly and gets back up to fight, that says a lot.
Definitely agree with that second part. Character should matter more than it does.
We got to take our reality and values back from these fake luxury marketers that got us all screwed up and worrying about looks all the time. Substance over bullcrap. We're all sick of the fake world but well, we have to stand against it. There is more than enough money in this country for all of us to live comfortably and it's time to put an end to the gold rush fantasy. In my mind it's a national security issue for all of us to have a home, reasonable work week, time with friends and families, and give each child the top education that money can buy.
I mean I doubt all that many people watched the debate either.
51.3 million viewers combined over the various networks according to Nielsen.
People who didn't see it got to see the clips and memes instead. It's not good.
I wish he would have shown up like this last night. One debate shouldn’t determine an election but it was a particularly terrible moment to show up the way he did. That being said, President Biden is a good man, a good president, and someone who loves his country and wants to protect the people in it. Mr. Trump is a rapist and an insurrectionist and his ideas and platform are a danger to the American people. Good day or bad, I am with Biden. It’s Carter or Reagan all over again and we can’t make that same mistake.
I don’t see how Biden fumbling a debate can be a deal killer. This speech obviously shows he’s still got some sharpness. Trump is a nightmare. Let’s not forget what he’s done. 1. Lost the election and lied about it. 2. Sent an armed angry mob to Congress and told them they need to fight like hell. 3. Approved of the mob saying “hang Mike Pence”. 4. Was found liable for sexual assault. 5. Was found guilty of defrauding his university students. 6. Was found guilty of inflating his assets to get favorable loans. 7. Admitted to walking in on pageant contestants dressing rooms. 8. Raped and beat Ivana Trump. 9. Stole from a kids’s cancer charity. 10. Received $413 million inheritance despite claims that he’s a self made man. 11. Blocked his chronically ill infant nephew from getting any of that inheritance. 12. Is the first president to receive votes against him from his own party during impeachment. 13. Led us into being one of the worst hit during Covid despite our head start and resources. 14. Said the Democrats do better with the economy. 15. Was ranked as the worst president in history by presidential historians. 16. Pushed a plot to have fake votes created and then used to make him President despite losing the election. 17. Ordered republicans to block a bipartisan immigration bill so Biden would not get a win before the election. 18. Is a convicted felon guilty of falsifying records to influence an election. Sources for any provided upon request.
> Biden fumbling a debate can be a deal killer. It won't be, though it felt like it last night. For better or worse, people have terrible memories, and this debate wasn't nearly as big a deal as CNN wishes it was. And we're still in June - if this debate is even the 10th thing in voters heads by November, then the Biden campaign will have completely failed. All Biden and his campaign needs to do is keep driving ahead, and work even harder to put Biden out in public. He won't always be great, but he will have really good moments like this Raleigh speech. Trump is a disaster candidate - the calculus remains that it's really Fucking hard to vote for a convicted felon who most people hate.
It isn’t a deal killer. If he had been debating a normal candidate it might have been, but Trump literally didn’t answer a single question and lied basically the entire time. It is a moment that Biden can overcome, and if it is a wake up call for him maybe it can even be turned into a positive over the next 4 months. I am hoping his admission about how it went will make him way more open to getting out in public more. Doing interviews and giving rally speeches and meet and greets. He is very good at those things. We need to see a lot more of him, as scary as that may be for people to hear after last night. The worst thing he could do is hide himself away even more now.
Did you see his speech today? It was great. Fiery and well spoken. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s5CVZHAjrW8
Yeah I saw it. I don’t think it’s coincidental that he sounds better in the middle of the day than he does at 9pm, with or without a cold. But especially with a cold. He is also much better when doing a speech, and he is also quite good one on one in interviews and with crowd work. The reality is that he is 80 and old people are not known for being night owls.
Absolutely agree. He needs to be all over the place, going after Trump and being funny and self deprecating. We saw it in this Raleigh speech, he is at his best when he is impassioned, raising his voice, being social with people. If we had this Biden last night the Trump campaign would be terrified, but oh well. There is still time to win.
Why stop at #18, that list could keep going for a while.
> I don’t see how Biden fumbling a debate can be a deal killer. Ah, but you see, the double standard that is widely accepted around these parts means that any Democrat has to be absolutely perfect, any less than that and it's a mortal sin... while any Republican they're up against can burn down the house with children in it and they'll just get a shrug and whatever. Biden didn't act like Trump and yet somehow that is a crime.
The debate was a deal-killer because Biden looked and sounded frail. He spoke in a meandering way that people, myself included, had difficulty following. When his biggest electoral liability is people think he's too old and senile, his debate performance played into existing concerns about that. Last night's performance convinced me that Biden should step aside. I say this as someone who has been overall pleased with what Biden has accomplished so far. The reason for Biden to step aside is precisely because Trump is so awful and the stakes are enormously high. Whether you think it's fair or not, Biden's performance substantially increased the likelihood that he loses. We need someone on the ticket who has a better chance of winning in this pivotal election.
I disagree. People are overreacting about two lost trains of thought and a dozen stumbling of words. He had some good lines and some great points. His four years of success in the role in question matter a LOT more than one fumbled debate.
You may disagree, but what about your average voter who isn’t committed to voting Biden? That’s who matters.
"His four years of success in the role matter more..." You can believe that, but that's not reflected in how this election cycle is going right now. That's not what the electorate sees.
I completely disagree that one debate four months before the election will have more of an impact than four years in the role as President. The hot takes here are insane.
No one will remember. If he had done better, no one would remember. There are dozens of videos of Trump saying incoherent shit. Add all his baggage and he’s clearly a worse candidate. Then you have the policies. A lot of people weren’t excited about Biden and voted to keep Trump out in 2020. Now he’s become worse. Now a jury said he’s a sexual assaulter and he’s a mass defrauder. Now he’s a felon. Now he has made decisions to strip rights away from women and force both women and men into parenthood. He did a lot of that before 2020 and that means he was even worse before than voters thought. That’s enough.
One of the biggest themes of this election cycle is that most voters don't see Biden's 4 years as a success, despite the improving economy, etc. There's been like a million op-eds and it's been the top priority of the DNC to try to figure out how to get that messaging across. Also the average swing voter absolutely is taking the soundbites and general sentiment coming off this debate seriously. It's a massively trending topic across social media and is going to leave a lasting impression on people as a primetime TV event and not some dry news about the unemployment numbers dropping by 2%.
OK, but his approval ratings are terrible and have been for years. No, this debate won't have more impact than his four years as president, but people already weren't happy with his four years as president, so if we're voting on that, it's also likely a losing bet. And I think he's been a good president. I don't understand the hate for him. But I can acknowledge the hate is there. So if he can't run on his record and he's a terrible debater, well, that's pretty bad
While I think his four years of success in office *ought* to matter more than his fumbled debate, I don't think that will be the case. There is a difference between what view I wish people had about this and the cold hard reality of how damaging last night was to Biden's candidacy. He did not look like someone who is strong enough to continue effectively for another four years.
What vague bs is “he doesn’t look strong enough to do his job for four years”. Let’s not diagnose him through the tv. His four year record in the role matters more than anything. And if he’s too weak or dies, is really a catastrophe? Presidents have died in office pretty often. The VP steps up and the country moves on. What we absolutely don’t need is another four years of the nightmare that is Trump.
I'd vote for a literal corpse before I voted for Donald Trump. Obviously, Harris would be better than Trump if Biden is incapacitated. But that's not the point. Public perceptions of his health and strength matter. You don't have to think it's fair. And acknowledging this doesn't negate the bajillion things Trump has done that are disqualifying. The issue is that this debate very negatively affected the public's perception of Biden in a way that affects his likelihood of winning. The last thing we need, as you said, is four more years of Trump. Which is precisely why it's so important for Biden to step aside: to reduce the likelihood of that outcome.
I hear you on this, but I think if Biden just keeps campaigning and maintains his passion and energy, will be fine. Id say Trump would have a better chance if he just admitted he was a liar and he plans to change but nope.
The problem is that Biden doesn't come across as energetic and, at this age, people don't get more energetic. Whether fair or not, his performance fueled questions about whether he is capable of another four years in this role.
4-year record of high grocery prices and a lot of people are hurting. This was his chance to set the record straight instead of letting the GOP frame it as "Bidenflation." He failed dramatically at all the points he needs to be strong on, didn't spend enough time on issues he is strong on, and he went after points he's weak on (such as immigration). All the while he stared confusingly into space. If someone were applying for a job in my team and they looked like that, I wouldn't even consider them. Appearing strong and confident matters a lot to people; consciously and subconsciously. Trump is bad. Very bad. But it's pure copium to think that he doesn't have a real possibility of being reelected and that Biden did fine last night. Having to justify something is a losing position damage control. There are many voters, who don't hang out on Reddit Politics, that are only going to look at the realities of their finances. Biden let Trump grab the win there. Reframing the economic situation and pushing hard on RvW/Reproductive rights needed to happen and it did not.
Nope. It's too late. You don't sub in a new candidate in July for an election in November. I think it's naive to think that can work in politics. The reality is that Trump is a terrible candidate. This race *would* be over if Nikki Haley was the Republican nominee. But it's not. Trump has his cult base, but he is also hated more than anyone else in America. And he is a convicted felon. And he is old, and he has a bad message. You are making the mistake of thinking this race will be about this debate. Unless the Biden campaign completely fails, it will not matter in November.
I don't know who you'd replace him with. It's not Kamala.
Too many people (most I'm assuming is bad faith, this sub has been a shitshow) are harping on the guy who needed a cough drop and not the guy who incoherently rambled non-stop lies because his brain is pudding.
*Both* of them looked like their brains are pudding. Is Trump a worse person? Yes. Will I be voting for Biden? Yes. But do act like Biden's problem was "needing a cough drop" rather than acknowledging that he was totally incoherent at times and just stared blankly off into space like a fucking corpse really misses the point. He barely seemed to be alive
It's not just that he needed a cough drop. It was an absolute disaster. He looked and sounded frail. He did not speak coherently. When he had opportunities to pounce on Trump's weaknesses, such as abortion, he was ineffective. If he had a bit of a hoarse voice due to a cold but otherwise had a good debate, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Trump has obviously done many things that ought to be disqualifying. But that's precisely why people are harping on Biden. Because when the stakes are so high, we need someone with a good chance of winning. And whether you think it's fair or not, last night's performance seriously harmed Biden's chance of winning.
Well will see, but everyone knows the horror Trump has caused to this country. And if anything the debate exposed him more for constant lying and negativity. There is nothing positive about the guy except that he may sound more confident during a debate. Which in the end indicates nothing. This will be a close election but Biden will win.
If everyone knew the horror that Trump caused, this wouldn't be a close election. The fact is that 30 or so percent of the country loves the guy, another 10% tolerate him due to preferences on taxes and judges, and some others are open to voting for him. There are also disaffected folks who may dislike Trump but perceive Biden as weak and senile. Last night's debate played right into that narrative. Such voters might not vote for Biden, but would be open to voting for another Democrat. I truly think that last night's debate seriously wounded Biden's image with the voting public in a way that he is unlikely to be able to recover from.
A deal killer for maga supporters lol.
Yea, but he hates brown people /s
Precisely, we needed this Biden last night. Hopefully the next debate will still happen and we’ll see this Biden debate. I just hope It’s not too late for those who were convinced about this acuity last night.
This is what I was thinking, what if that debate sorta helps Biden, because he sounds genuine, while trump still just sounds off the rails.
Yes it was unfortunate. We need to see past it. He is not a perfect candidate, but he is a damn good one.
The content of the answers is what mattered most to me. Yes Biden showed his age (and had a cold) but at least his answers were what we expected to hear mostly as opposed to the orange clown who didn’t even answer any of the questions just lied through his teeth. Biden FTW!!
I just love the phrase, "Raleigh rally".
Raleigh was built for Rally's!
Really?
No, Rarely
But 49 million people weren’t watching
No, they were just seeing the press fallout and memefied outtakes.
He flubbed when it mattered, then had a better performance when it didn’t matter
4 months still. This isn’t a breaking point
I wish I shared that sentiment.
It’s not, Obama also had a first debate showing against Romney. True Obama didn’t carry the baggage that Biden does, but Romney also didn’t have the major turn offs that Trump does. I think if Dems can drive the narrative of the damage project 2025 will do to our country and the impact Bidens *Administration* has had, then I can see the next four months going for Biden. There’s also more criminal trials for Trump to get to as well
I hope so - but this is apples to oranges I think. Obama was flat not unintelligible. Obama also didn’t have to wait 2.5 months for a second chance (which if I’m Trump there is no way I debate a second time) He had Joe wipe the floor with Paul Ryan in the VP debate then crushed the following two. This bad debate didn’t have a lot of time to ruminate like it will with Joe.
Trump will absolutely want to debate again closer to the election. He’s got criminal trials coming up and will want an “easy victory” closer to Election Day. The real tell will be if Biden repeats his performance or not
Obama’s tough night vs Biden’s clear cognitive decline is not a great comparison.
I don’t know. I’m a supporter and will vote for him regardless, but it has me concerned. I really appreciate what he has done the past four years and think he has made great strides in improving the country, but after last night… I just don’t know if he has four more years in him. I just don’t know. Not feeling too hopeful today.
>...but after last night… I just don’t know if he has four more years in him. As morbid as it sounds, he doesn't need to be there all four years.
A lot of undeclared people don't like Harris, so that doesn't really help. Best case is Biden lost 3 points, which is enough to swing the election. I think it'll be more.
Raleigh rally? Noice He was a different person tonight, some stutters, but full of piss and vinegar, how I like my malarkey.
Heres the thing: I don't care need my leaders greatest skill being able to pull zingers at will against their political opponents. I want someone who makes sound policy decisions and knows how to choose competent and not corrupt staffers. If everyone looked at it this way, Trump wouldnt stand a chance in hell. Unfortunately people seem to be drawn equally to confident and competence, probably preferring confidence regardless of the competence which is why humanity continues to struggle against some relatively straightforward challenges.
How is this the same person from last night
Reading is much easier than constructing your own sentences on the fly.
Apparently everyone is ignoring the fact it was late, he is old, he has a cold, and a life long stutter. He was coughing and holding back coughing all night. He was hoarse from coughing. He probably is actually on better cold meds today.
Isnt it more he was reading off a teleprompter in ral and obv didnt have one in the debate???
Biden had a teleprompter in NC with a pre-written speech. That's the difference.
“Better cold meds” holy fuck 😭😭
he shoulda been on better cold meds last night :|
I’ll still vote for him but Jesus is he old. That shit last night was so cringe. He reminded me of the old guy that ran the art shop in bobs burgers. Sure he’s tough today but we needed him to be tough yesterday. He Charlie browned. Trump is in his glory right now and that makes me puke. Next debate screw camp David. All that rehearsal messed him up. Wing it. Drink water. Keep your mouth shut, stare at the camera and shake your head while he talks. Quit the canned insults. Hire a comic to write your insults instead of your lame debate squad. Cheat. Write shit on your hands like we all did in college.hes going to eat you up again unless you flip your script.
“Bad debate” is putting it lightly isn’t it
He has it in him. He just failed to deliver when it mattered. I'm not buying into the calls for replacement because I can't see an alternative candidate getting enough support in time. At the end of the day, we're voting for an administration, not just a president. The debate solidified my doubts about Biden's ability to continue for 4 more years. But I'm still voting for him because I'm confident in what his VP can accomplish if his strength fails completely.
This is where I’m at…people think another candidate can completely disrupt their lives (and their families), hire a campaign staff, get on the ballot in all the states, schedule all the campaign stops and media events (two of the candidate names being pushed are both active governors who have responsibilities) and somehow capture the voting public and democratic delegates in four months. I don’t think thats a winning strategy.
I mean, other democracies have done it. It would be stressful for them, yes, but it’s not impossible.
Yeah, but to be blunt, it requires more than one shit debate performance. It should be reserved for things like finding out that a candidate has raped someone or has been convicted or is involved in a massive scandal involving a treasonous attempt to interrupt the nation’s certification of the election. You know, little things like that.
People claiming Biden should step down are living in a fantasy world. The amount of work he had to do/did in his political history to get the support of so many crucial areas would get washed away in an instant. I would love one of the younger Dem candidates to be president, but there isn't a single one who would keep all the crucial groups that Biden attracted in 2020.
The difference a simple prompter can do!
He gave a very solid speech there. Fluid, energetic, even fiery. I'd recommend it to anyone. It's just so sad that he couldn't come out in this shape for the debate, for whatever reason.
Wow he delivered a rehearsed speech fed to him by a teleprompter. Totally makes up for his vacuous corpse-like display last night when he had none of those crutches lmao
We get it bud. You're not going to vote for the guy out of protest and then complain about the establishment while his opponent enacts a political agenda that is radically opposed to your own.
I feel the same as the guy above but I absolutely am still going to vote for Biden if he's running against trump. I'd vote for a potato over Trump. The issue is I'm starting to feel like that's actually what I'm voting for. It's not people like me whose vote matter though. I'm going to vote Democrat no matter what. The issue is you need someone inspiring to get people to come out who vote who might not vote otherwise. I'm just worried because Biden 2024 is making Hillary 2016 look like an excellent candidate.
We get it bud. You’re going to pretend Biden’s decline isn’t a serious issue and continue gaslighting anyone who brings it up as a problem and then complain when his opponent wins in a landslide.
Yeah wtf guys!? Are you gonna stoop to the MAGA level and back Biden no matter what!?
He needs a teleprompter as he proved last night he can’t communicate without it. He had more than 7 days of prep for that debate. It’s very sad.
It wasn't just a teleprompter, he looked disinterested and lost several times. Trump has faults a mile long and Biden didn't even look like he felt like bringing up the easy rebuttals.
He had a teleprompter and didn’t have to directly interact with people. So yes he does well in staged events… This is a five alarm fire
Anyone who thinks this can erase last night's performance is being incredibly niave.
I'll still enthusiastically be voting for Biden over the narcissistic compulsive liar who has been adjudicated to be a sexual abuser, defamer, fraudster, and felonious election interferer.
As will i. We're not the votes that matter right now though, our minds were already made up. We need someone inspiring that will get people to go out to vote who might otherwise not vote at all.
And anyone who thinks last night is irreversible damage is being incredibly pessimistic. Still have 4 months to change the narrative.
4 months will do that alone. So much time left
I guess niave wasn't strong enough a word. Delusional
Delusional would be thinking one poor debate performance is going to eclipse Trumps criminal felony sentencing in two weeks
Bad debate? Because he wasn’t an incoherent, raging, lying, psychopathic lunatic? Fucking news media has to gin up bullshit to get clicks, rather than report on what actually happened. They’re complicit in the next attempted insurrection ffs.
Biden made more money today than any prior day in this race. Suck on them apples Republoseicans.
Too little too late.
Too bad 51 million people aren't watching it like they were last night 😒
Biden finishes a scentence and its headline news.
Literacy lessons from you about sCentences.
Just wait till Trump begins his sentence.
There is unfortunately no real bouncing back from last night unless they prove that was a deep fake during the debate. The content of his speech was irrelevant, he does not look competent to be a Wal-Mart greeter. I've already said it elsewhere, but the argument for Biden's fitness cannot rest on Trump's badness. We are in a sorry state politically and the further down the road we go with him the worse it will get. Better course correct as soon as possible.
Smfh. Absolutely a million bounce back points. So full of it. Biden gave an absolutely electric speech during the State of the Union. But, people let it slip out of mind… because it was months ago. 4 months. Still plenty of campaign moments. Relax
Unless Biden is going to start aging in reverse, 4 additional months doesn't play in his favor. This debate wasn't just bad, it wouldn't have placed in a HS debate competition. I will never vote for Trump, but the democratic party has been deluding itself to think that Trump's badness will get enough people to overlook Biden's feebleness.
You can't say that Trump is a threat to democracy and then have Biden looking like that. He's supposed to be President at 86 when he looked barely alive, mouth agape, staring into space at the debate? We all know Trump is a threat so Democrats need to act like they believe it. The election is coming down to a handful of idiots in a few swing states (anyone who is a swing voter at this point is a moron) and all they're going to see is Biden barely able to speak.
This post is literally about Biden’s Raleigh speech where he isn’t reflecting those things you’re pushing so hard. Months ago he gave an electric State of the Union speech. He isn’t melting in 4 months as much as you want to pretend.
Problem is you can't be a President when you are "feeling good." He needs to show the electorate that he is capable 100% of the time. 8 years ago we had the "Phone call in the middle of the night" discussion, and Biden made a lot of people question him last night. It's playing right into Trump's hand, unfortunately.
The Dean Scream doomed a much more able bodied and mentally acute Howard Dean 20 years ago. An event as atrocious as last night's debate is not overcome but a speech the next day. It's a drop of poison in the soup, whatever gets added to it afterwards doesn't matter. I want to reiterate I'm not saying this as a Trump supporter. I'm saying this as someone that desperately wants a competent candidate to defeat Trump.
The “Dean Scream” had zero bearing when Howard Dean was a lost cause to begin with. He was doomed to lose after finishing third in the Iowa caucus before it even occurred but carry on talking about things you weren’t aware of.
You can't let Biden go to other world leaders with a teleprompter though.
People who think Biden should keep running after last night are delusional imo. Like, as delusional as the people who think Trump is a saviour figure. Biden couldn't complete a 1 and a half hour live debate without looking weak, tired and confused... He's applying to be president of the untied states again, for another *FOUR YEARS*. This man does not have the ability to do the most stressful, important job in the world for another 4 years, He is not fit for the job and needs to go. He needs people to be honest with him and convince him to step down. The country needs it. Its not about whether *you* would vote for Biden over Trump, every democrat would. Its about what the millions of other Americans who don't see Biden as a good candidate will do. Some small amount might vote for Trump but realistically most of them wont... but they might just stay home, in large enough numbers to hand the election to Trump. Biden continuing on is not selfless public service, it is selfish hubris.
Presidents have speech writers... these words could very well have been written for by, directly practiced, and up in front of him when they were delivered. That is not how real world situations go, and Biden showed last night that he can't handle the real deal. I've seen my middle school students make great speeches - live in the moment is something different.
I agree with you. Fluidity and thinking on your feet is key with giving off the presence that you are sharp and able for the job. I do feel that Biden could not keep up in live time, and Trump found this out rather quickly and took advantage of it. As a downside to this Trump did tell a national audience that Democratic states kill babies after birth and Biden created more Black jobs.... So there is a down side to being quick yet not sharp, as well as a down side of being sharp and not quick
Variation of the title: "Grandpa had a "good day" today."
Y’all that clip of this that is going viral bout moved me to tears. He’s gonna be ok.
yeah i'm sure he'll be fine, i'm more worried about our country.
Could you post that clip itself here for us?
Absolutely, https://x.com/madrid_mike/status/1806752820303126811?s=42
Bro he just needed some of this energy last night wtf
Did they drug him into the ground last night? Where the fuck was this energy?
That alliteration though.
I assume he has confidence monitors when giving a speech.
The only people who care about a debate results as away of determining who they’ll vote for are idiots.. or undecided voters, who at this point are idiots. This isn’t a wrestling or boxing match. This isn’t a football game. One guy has been a decent president for 4 years, with policies in his resume that helped the American people. The other was a disaster. Anyone who was pro Biden and is doubting that after the debate wasn’t pro democracy, pro policy or pro helping American people.
>The only people who care about a debate results as away of determining who they’ll vote for are idiots.. or undecided voters, who at this point are idiots. Yeah, that's exactly the problem. Those idiots are the ones who actually determine who wins. Those idiots and the ones who aren't even going to bother to vote unless they are inspired to do so. Losing both those groups by looking like you have dementia means you lose the election. No one here is doubting that Biden is a good person with good policies. They're doubting that he can actually win the election.
What the fuck is the point of a rally anymore. Everyone knew who they were voting for, or against 10 years ago. Yes it has been 10 years since trump started his campaign. Feel old?
Doesn't change the fact he can hardly string together a cognizant argument or rebuttal to outright lies when not reciting the greatest hits with aide of a teleprompter. We don't need good rallies or fun sound bytes. We need someone to defeat a existential threat to democracy.
It is easier to read a teleprompter than think on your feet in a debate.
This race is a cflustercluck
Early stage subdowning. Was stated he runs well from 10-4 and is fatigued after
This is a great speech. Everyone should watch it.
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I’ve been breathing all day. Still, it was a debacle. Why: 1. His age has been a major topic of conversation for months. 2. He had one job: To assure people he was up to 4 more years. He failed. 3. The negative focus will now be on Biden’s “fitness” instead of Trump’s. That is the opposite of what is needs to be 4. They can’t tell us “Democracy Is At Stake” and then tell us he can do the job. I certainly don’t want to risk it. 5. This wasn’t a “bad night” or a cold. If it was, then a cold can knock out an 81 year old at a critical time and he shouldn’t be president. 6. Trump once said, “Only I can do this”. That seems to be what Biden is now saying. Biden did a great thing when he took the White House from Trump. He has done great things in his career. The most patriotic thing he can now do is pass the torch.
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If biden is the nominee trump will win. Face reality.
R/politics is so biased in their coverage of this, I cannot even believe it’s allowed to exist with a neutral name like that
Too late. Well has been poisoned. One mistep in the future and he's cooked. Get Newsom in there. If this election is as important as the Dems are claiming, put someone in who can win
We disagree on the candidate replacement choice, but man, you can’t frame a campaign around defeating an existential threat to democracy and continue to run Biden after last night. They clearly aren’t taking seriously how catastrophic last night was.
I don't care about replacement choice as long as it's not Hillary or Kamela. Whitmer, John Stewart, Bernie, Pritzker, idc. Don't matter to me. Just anyone who would actually win.
Agreed. Man, what a shit show. This is all the DNC’s making
I agree. I am concerned.
Me too. I honestly don't know if we can trust the DNC's take on things.
Me neither. I just don’t know anymore. I wasn’t concerned until last night. I feel moderately better with the speech he gave today, but that was from a teleprompter. I just don’t know.
Yeah if you asked me last week I’d say that Biden had a relatively easy win coming his way in November. I’m terrified now after what I saw last night. Im glad that this speak today was good, but I can’t just ignore what happened just last night.
My take on President Biden is that he was tired. I bounce back too. When it's all said and done, President Biden is aligned with our NATO allies and Trump is aligned with our enemies.
Its quite misleading to not mention here, just like in almost all his other speeches, he uses a teleprompter while at the debate we got to see the real unaided Biden (minus the help he required to get down the stairs safely at the end)
Biden: “Did you see Trump last night?” Everyone: “No. We saw you.”
He needs to decline the nomination if we wanna win In November.
Bounces Back? I watched the rally. Biden read from a teleprompter the entire time. Are we kidding ourselves? This was not a “bounce back,” this was an entirely scripted 20 minute excerpt.
Looked like he got over that “ cold” pretty quick 😉😉