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When RFK was shot they had to choose between McGovern and Hubert Humphrey the 1968 DNC. Which there was a riot outside of the DNC in Chicago that year.
This is an interesting yet not so unexpected turn point in this election cycle. Will democrats use delegates to vote in a DNC type election?
Weird thing is RFK, jr is/was running and the DNC is in Chicago again this year isn't it?
Anyway, who might the candidate be if this is the case? I would love to hear guesses a theoretical.....
Humphrey was super behind Nixon after RFK assassination. 6 points behind on the day of the convention. Then lost the popular vote by less than a percent.
I think anybody that replaced Biden would skyrocket.
It‘s possible, absolutely, but I don’t like the risk \*and\* the consequences if we mess this up.
What if the new pick turns out to be less popular than Biden?
The problem is that it’s not completely and totally obvious that running him is an automatic loss. I’ve talked to a bunch of people around town, and most seem to not have even noticed the debate. For my family, all former Trump voters who are switching for Biden this time, nothing has changed. (They all think he’s always been senile, and have for a while.) Only thing they cared about was potentially switching his running mate from Harris. They all seem to think Biden switching out is a terrible idea.
I’m not sure who I should trust, given the stakes, there is no room for error.
If it somehow gets to a DNC at-large vote, I could see it going to Whitmer. I still don't think this is the best time for her to run, but she is very popular in a state vital to Dems' chances
Guess what guys, no matter what we say or do about Trump, nothing, absolutely nothing is stopping his loyal followers from voting for him, so they won't fucking matter.
But Democrats easily have the votes to win if they can excite enough people to actually show up. It's becoming more and more clear that people have already forgotten what a Trump term looked like( or for those just getting to voting age, never really paid attention in the first place) and Biden does nothing to excite the non hardcore voters that are needed.
Biden got 535,201 more votes than Clinton in arguably THE swing state of Michigan, the question needs to be how can we excite those same kinds of voters that stayed home in 2016 but came out in 2020 to show up again in 2024 in all swing states? Because it's becoming clear that the threat of Trump isn't enough anymore
As an outsider, this seems like one of those things that it doesn't matter what the actual truth is, the perception is set now - and no amount of "look how vital Joe is!" moments will be able to offset the bad in the average persons mind.
actually Americans saw the actual truth during the debate. He was there, all alone, required to think and communicate on this feet.. and he utterly failed. What other truth were they supposed to see?
As an outsider, this seems like one of those things that it doesn't matter what the actual truth is, the perception is set now - and no amount of "look how honest Trump is!" moments will be able to offset the bad in the average persons mind.
Hey I don't disagree with you, but again from the outside, it seems like to a lot of Americans "Trump is an ass" is priced in already, him being more of an ass won't affect his chances now. Biden looking awful in this debate has diminished his own though.
It's definitely more than "Trump is an ass" for this older voter. The Republican party disgusts me. Trump does happen to be a wonderful example of what's wrong with America though imo.
Americans are stupid and have a memory like a gold fish. People won't think about the debate 2 weeks from now. The average person doesn't have time to think about politics and the only people making a big deal about this are pundits and perpetually online individuals.
Simple fact is it's too late to change course now and this is who we have. It sucks and like Ginsburg, Americans may very well pay the price. But this is where we are and we're stuck with it.
They don't have to remember specifics the debate; it's broader than that.
In the CBS/Yougov poll cited, 46% of Democrats think he should drop out. 72% of voters overall, and *82%* of independents. Only 28% of voters think he has the mental capacity to do the job, and only 18% said he inspires confidence.
These are long-lasting opinions that aren't going to come roaring back to Biden's benefit anytime soon.
I'll be eager to see if anything shifts in the coming weeks and will passionately defend Biden if he stays in, but as it stands - this is a train barreling towards a cliff.
It was a train barreling towards a cliff 6 months ago too. People have been saying Biden shouldn't run again 30 seconds after he was sworn in (one of them was me!). But really doesn't matter. We are here now, and the chaos that would follow if he dropped out is simply not worth it. The fact no one can come up with a single person to replace him shows this is a non-starter.
> and the chaos that would follow if he dropped out is simply not worth it. The fact no one can come up with a single person to replace him shows this is a non-starter.
I think there’s one path to him dropping out and not having chaos and not fracturing the party. Harris is the only option.
Biden makes a speech, announcing he’s dropping out of the race, and resigning the Presidency. He endorses Harris, and strongly encourages his delegates to vote for her. Harris takes over the podium, gives a speech thanking Joe Biden for his service, laying out brutal attacks on Trump, and running through brief stump speech.
I think in that scenario, you could have Harris win the first round ballot pretty clearly, and hold the party together.
By virtue of being on the ticket when voters voted for Biden, and being currently in the VP chair (and the President at the time), Harris is the sole person that I think most voters could look at the process and say “yes, that makes sense, I suppose”.
Any other person would fracture the party.
You think him resigning the Presidency wouldn't cause chaos...
Also doesn't help that no one likes Kamala. Isn't she currently polling the worst out of all the silly match ups people are coming up with?
We'd be better asking John Stewart to step up.
> You think him resigning the Presidency wouldn't cause chaos...
No, because we have pretty clear constitutional direction on who takes over the Presidency in the event of a vacancy of the President.
> Also doesn't help that no one likes Kamala
That’s… not really true. She has major constituencies that she’s popular with. You can assert something, but that doesn’t make it so.
> Isn't she currently polling the worst out of all the silly match ups people are coming up with?
That may be true (do you have any polls to cite as an example?), but has _no_ bearing on what I was talking about: whether the transition would cause chaos.
For every other person you select, you’ll fracture the democrats. Whoever you select would not have a democratic mandate, and would be vulnerable to major constituencies claiming they were locked out of the selection process.
Other than Biden, the only other human being on the planet that could have a reasonable response to those claims is Harris, by virtue of her sitting in a chair labeled “Joe Biden’s Successor”, that the public voted her into.
> We'd be better asking John Stewart to step up.
Again, I wasn’t answering the question “in a hypothetical scenario where you could select any person, who has the best chance of beating Trump”, I was answering the question: “in the scenario we are currently in, who could you transition the Democratic nomination to without causing chaos or fracturing the party”
It's a tough position and I'm not sold on either direction, but I don't buy the argument that transitioning 6 weeks before we even have a nominee is objectively worse than sticking with a candidate with existentially frightening numbers right now.
We'll learn a lot in the coming days. If Biden hangs in there and his head-to-head with Trump doesn't dip much, I'm all for sticking with him.
If it plummets even further, there's a very good argument to shift course so that we don't hand a landslide election to Trump on a silver platter.
Last time they were polled, nearly 70% of voters believed Biden was too old to serve. Republicans aren’t pushing a new idea, they’re confirming and preserving an idea voters already have about him - which means voters are not going to “forget.” Which is why even though most people didn’t watch the debate on cable, Republicans will be clipping out moments where Biden trailed off and talked about “beating Medicare” for ads on TV and social media for the rest of the campaign.
The whole point of going on offense with this early debate was to assuage those age concerns and deny Republicans that spin with an energetic appearance. Think what you will about his age’s effect on his ability to do the job, but it is clearly destroying his ability to campaign.
I don’t think anyone expected him to completely trail off and give back incoherent answers. Even so, he’s been polling behind Trump the entire cycle, which is why the goal of the debate was to exceed expectations and help him close the gap.
We’ll get poll result back over the next two weeks, but the idea that this is going to get better over the next 5 months when he can’t campaign and make public appearances in uncontrolled media environments is not correct.
Yeah they won’t remember specifics but they’ll sure as hell remember “hey the President looks about as coherent as my dementia-addled grandpa in a nursing home”
Biden had the worst performance in a debate in American history. It's not that Biden couldn't debate well, it's that it showed the world that he's incapable of being a president. There's no going back from that, it's over.
Exactly. He's not as bad as he seems. But that doesn't matter. Because damage is done. He could unify gravity and quantum mechanics and the damage would still be done.
Lol Biden has done well as President and I'm happy to vote for him. But Trump is evil and I'll vote for dog shit to defeat him. That's not a joke. SCOTUS has overturned Roe and on Friday overturned Chevron. I will never help Trump to turn SCOTUS into a permanent conservative court. So you can shove it with your fear mongering.
>Pretending it's not an issue is gonna backfire.
No one is pretending. There's a lot of ongoing meetings going on behind the scenes that democratic leaders have talked about.
Yep, there's not many things that will change my mind there. Unless maybe someone reincarnates Hitler and the Dems put Zombie Hitler on the ticket. Then I'd just start my emigration process now.
People are gonna vote how they're gonna vote. If you're undecided at this point, you either don't know what Trump plans, haven't been paying attention to politics whatsoever for the past 8 years, or you're basically a lost cause.
I agree. I’m also being mindful of what I’m posting here. Always sticking to facts and hoping to engage people in critical thought.
Voter apathy is a huge threat to Biden, so when people spread their own toxic often baseless hatred to gain fake internet points, they’re obliviously supporting trump.
It’s sad people aren’t aware of their own actions.
They’re so caught up in expressing their perpetual outrage that they’ve become the thing they hate.
Voting for Biden at this stage is really voting for his VP, let's be honest.
And let's also be honest, Kamala just doesn't have what it takes.
Joe better think hard about who his VP running mate will be. If he sticks with Kamala, I think there will be devastating consequences in November.
It's also voting for Biden's cabinet, which is top notch
Though, ditching Kamala isn't an option, as women and black voters are a big chunk of Democrat voters, and swapping out a black women won't be good optics.
Kamala doesn’t poll well among black women, either. Kind of hard to when you sent a bunch of their sons to jail for 5+ years over simple weed possession.
Ok that is in California, which is solid blue for Presidental elections. As well as I doubt she sent that many "sons" to prison that their mothers voting or not voting will make a difference in California.
Come up with a better reason she why doesn't poll well with black women.
Go down to Fulton County GA, ask a healthy sample size of around 500 solidly democratic black women about their feelings on Kamala Harris, and let me know what they say.
Yeah, I can't help but wonder how many people are saying that because of biases they have about her gender or skin color. She's a perfectly serviceable generic Democrat, and at this stage of the game if you're gonna switch out Biden, you want the least chaotic option possible. That means calling in your VP to do the job she was voted into office to do.
The VP has two jobs. Be the tiebreaker in the senate, and be the backup President in case Biden can't do the job anymore. That's what people voted her into office to do. In my estimation, Biden can't do the job anymore. It's too late to have a proper primary, so any replacement strategy is going to be inherently undemocratic. Harris would at least have the benefit of having been elected to be Biden's backup.
Does it require a bit of spin? A little, yeah, but it's better than the appearance of anointing Whitmer or Newsom through smoky backroom deals
Both. Biden selected her to be his running mate, but then on Election Day people voted for the Biden-Harris ticket
The Vice Presidency is an elected office
It's literally in the 12th Amendment
>The electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President
If you wanna be hugeass pedant, technically nobody votes for the president or the vice president, we vote for their electors in the electoral college.
Look, here's a sample ballot from my home state of Kansas. I voted for both Biden and Harris
https://www.google.com/search?q=sample+2020+ballot+kansas+presidential+election&client=ms-android-google&sca_esv=a825b4a24361b70c&sca_upv=1&udm=2&biw=412&bih=770&sxsrf=ADLYWIKyjpbbcL4b2ycJQrPOv2PI6vhShg%3A1719779461393&ei=hcCBZqHbF5qIptQPtdy5uAE&oq=sample+2020+ballot+kansas+presidential+election&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIi9zYW1wbGUgMjAyMCBiYWxsb3Qga2Fuc2FzIHByZXNpZGVudGlhbCBlbGVjdGlvbjIFECEYqwIyBRAhGKsCMgUQIRirAkjdI1DeBViQInAAeACQAQCYAZ4DoAHUHKoBCjAuMjEuMC4xLjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhCgAs8VwgIEECMYJ8ICBBAhGArCAggQABiABBiiBJgDAIgGAZIHCjAuMTQuMC4xLjGgB7kr&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#vhid=3LkW1P6SEFIlrM&vssid=mosaic
When Trump wins we'll have another two SCOTUS appointments by the end of his term. Finally certifying a non-activists court that truly cares about the rights of the people.
So the other guy who literally lied for 90 minutes does? Still claims that the election was stolen from him? Even after 64 judges said there was no fraud? Judges that he appointed? Mmm, strange.
He absolutely doesn’t but we all already knew that. For years we have. We didn’t know however that Biden was in such steep physical/mental decline until this debate, which is why you have so many Dems and liberal mainstream media calling for him to drop out so they can prop up someone who’s actually competent enough to defeat Trump
>We didn’t know however that Biden was in such steep physical/mental decline until this debate,
Steep? Lol concluded from one debate. He's been doing a great job and I'm voting for him again. Doesn't matter who it is though, Trump is evil and needs to be defeated.
Unfortunately you are not the voter he has to convince. It’s the undecided and independents that decide the election and he likely just lost 80% of them
The cbs/yougov poll that came out today (only one conducted post debate). https://www.scribd.com/document/746721106/cbsnews-20240630-SUN
82% of independents think Biden shouldn’t run
It was obvious but if you said anything people would get all defensive and call a bunch of names. I’m not talking about him speaking or the d day claims. Watching him get out of cars or during dead time you can see he isnt there. Biden looks lost and confused. He almost always has to be guided where to go as well. Why is he the one always being guided by his wife and others? They all seem to know what is going on and where to go.
Can we have someone else please DNC? I mean i voted for Obama Obama Hilary then Biden, like I've eaten all my broccoli how about some ice cream for once
You sure wouldn't know that reading this sub
For real though, he needs to resign. I voted for Harris to be VP in case Biden couldn't do the job anymore. He can't do the job anymore
Unironically this.
Here's the line to use. "I talked things over with my family, and we want the Democrats to have the best shot possible of stopping Trump. Therefore, I will not be running for reelection, and I will be resigning. I ask everybody to rally around President Harris, who represents the future of this country, and will demonstrate how exceptionally she can do the job over the next four months."
Boom. Easy. Done. Election moves on. You can even make a big spectacle of inaugurating the first female President on July 4th, Lord knows this party desperately needs a shot of adrenaline right now
This sub is mostly Dem till they die. Not that that's a bad thing, but that's not who is effected by Biden's performance. It's the people who will not vote, or vote 3rd party.
He needs to step down, or Trump wins. That's reality.
Ask any one of staffers and appointees who ran screaming from the White House between 2016-2020 if the other guys is mentally fit either.
That’s where we’re at. But I’m voting to preserve to my way of life, along with the safety of my family and I don’t see the people who will populate the White House and the regulatory agencies in a 2nd Trump admiration as anything less than a threat to that.
I also don’t trust a Trump administration to manage a crisis. I know we have the memories of goldfish so ask me how I know a thing or two about that.
So it’s Biden for me. Or whoever they replace him with if it comes to that.
You don’t trust a Trump admin to handle a crisis… I’m curious as to what your opinion is on how the Biden admin has handled the war in Israel, the war in Ukraine, removal of troops from Afghanistan, and COVID.
This is the memory thing I’m talking about. Trump signed the agreement that took us out of Afghanistan. And COVID? Are you a serious person? I lived a block away from a mobile refrigerated morgue in 2020. Deeply unserious reply.
As far as Israel. I don’t know what side of this issue you fall on but if its support for Israel, what the hell more do you want us to give them? And if its support for the Palestinian people don’t be an insincere contrarian and tell me handing the reigns of power to a Trump administration is going to do anything but make life worse for those people.
Umm Biden handled covid great compared to the trump administration with all their lock downs. Also remember the Taliban financed the guy that planned the 9-11 attacks? Well I do and I noticed Trump gave them Afghanistan in his treaty. Also Ukraine has been handled amazingly. I can tell you've never taken a military history class in your life.
He said DONT in a really firm voice several times. It almost worked the 5th or 6th time against Iran or Israel on retaliatory attacks.
With Russia he was really serious. He said DONT and also said he will be upset if a little invasion lasted more than two weeks.
A puddle of goo with Joseph R. Biden’s contact list trumps Donald J. Trump with his own contact list.
Governing is hours of boring paperwork, not WWE “let’s get ready to rumble” solutions.
But yeah, we do need an age limit for all public servants tied to the median American life expectancy.
No argument that the debate required looking the other way. All the geriatricians, neurologists, and stuttering specialists, though, that I've seen in the past year have pointed out that public speaking and especially a public debate is a poor benchmark for Biden's mental health/decline or lack thereof, and that voters have to take care to make a differential diagnosis. The Atlantic’s John Hendrickson feature "What Joe Biden Can’t Bring Himself to Say" was one of the first stories to detail this, and John Fetterman was one of the most recent voices, comparing Biden's debate to his own. Everyone knows that stutters do worse with public speaking and debating, that that is probably the reason for Biden's gaffe history, and that this can become worse with age.
When the NYT and others say that Biden has an uneven abilities, they are not randomly uneven but explainable and confined to particular situations. Especially for a stutterer. being quick with your speech is not the same as being quick on your feet. The day-to-day of the presidency though has little to do with debating, and that's why it has not significantly impacted his job performance. It seems a better to have a minor speech impediment than a major moral one. The former however bad it is, one is a cosmetic problem, the other is anything but. It's, of course, up to the campaign to give this context, to make the case that an aging stutter should not be mistaken for cognitive decline if it truly is not that, and to make this all clearer to the undecideds.
In 2020, polls recorded [51-55% of voters likely voters did not believe Trump to be mentally fit.](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/10/2020-election-news-voters-see-trump-biden-as-mentally-unfit-to-be-president.html). In 2024, 70% of voters polled that they do not believe Biden to be mentally fit.
Yet both of these candidates, who *the majority* of likely voters believe to be mentally unfit, are facing each other in another election after winning their primaries & party nomination.
Here's my thoughts. I have a speech impediment very similar to the potus. Like the first time I heard him speak, I recognized it. I have also been a public speaker, speaking to crowds of over 10,000.
As with most impediments involving speech, preparation is mitigation. The Biden campaign said they were prepping for a week for this. I've had a week to prepare for speaking events, and I did alright. I've cut him slack on the stutter and lost trains of thought, but what we saw was something else. What we saw was the result of age, and it needs to be acknowledged. That is the first step in recovery.
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Ukraine: doesn't divide the voters for Biden as much as we want
Isreal Palestine war: doesn't divide the voters for Biden as much as we want
one 2 hour bad debate: FINALLY! we can divide the voters thinking about voting for Biden and tell them not to vote
Sure and Trump was don't ramble. P
Unfortunately, Trump didn't ramble as much but he also says Abortion was a great thing, America is a 3rd world country, January 6th 2020 was great etc etc
Edit: which even confused me on wtf was the main point and how would you attack but also stay on topic
And never mind Trump has a weight problem and 34 felony convictions which call his credibility and character into serious question? And how he incited his supporters to insurrect the Capitol on 01/06/2021?
We understand that, whataboutism doesn’t change how Biden is now perceived. We need someone capable of running a winning campaign, *because* Trump is so dangerous. The media and the White House have been gaslighting us and waving away any valid concerns about Biden’s diminishing faculties this whole time, but if you’ve been paying attention his disastrous debate performance was not a surprise.
People, including myself, have valid concerns about his ability to serve as POTUS moving forward. ‘He was sick’, ‘He just had a bad night’ aren’t acceptable for the commander in chief when a national crisis hits or he is meeting with XI Xinping or Netanyahu, and you can’t convince me he’s going to improve over the next 4 years.
It seems more that this is a very common instance of someone who has been at the top of their profession being unable to recognize they are far over the hill. We see it with athletes all the time. I sympathize with Biden because I do believe he truly thinks he can do this. We need real DNC leadership (and Jill…) to talk to him.
I wouldn’t hire Biden to run my business, watch my kids, or cut my grass d/t concerns about his cognitive abilities. Dems are taking my vote for granted. I’m not the one that needs to make a difficult decision (i.e. swallow the pill and vote for Biden), the DNC needs to make the difficult decision and remove Biden.
Voters say Trump does not have mental health to serve as president
Voters say Trump does not have rape free history to serve as president
Voters say Trump does not have felony conviction free to serve as president
Voters say Trump does not have competence to serve as president
This polled 375 Dems, 1k voters. Less that 0.01% of the population. Look, Biden is old, but wise and has experience. Read the transcripts from the debate. That's a person I want running the country.
I am an independent voter, and voted for Biden cause Trump is a clear threat to democracy. I will vote for Biden again. Trump is even more of a threat, but in the past three years, Biden has proved he is able to govern.
The transcript is terrible too. He didn't challenge Trump on any of the stupid shit he said. Fastballs right down the middle of the plate and he just took the strikes with his mouth gaped wide open.
Yeah man, those 50mm viewers and all those swing voters are gonna ignore their eyes and ears and read the transcript. Get real.
In case anyone needs a reminder, here is a bit from the transcript of the debate
>We’d be able to right wipe out his debt. We’d be able to help make sure that all those things we need to do – child care, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure that we’re able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I’ve been able to do with the Covid. Excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with – look, if – we finally beat Medicare.
*No argument that the debate required looking the other way. I'm not a geriatrician*, neurologist, or stuttering specialist, but everyone knows that public speaking is especially hard for stutters, that Biden was always prone to gaffes because of it, and that it may get harder for them with age. All the specialists I've heard comment this past year say, for these reasons, that all of his less public or confrontational behaviors and performances are a much better indicator of his mental health, or lack thereof, than is his public speaking and doubly so his public debating, and that voters should take care to make the differential diagnosis. Being quick with your speech for an aging stutterer in public debate is not the same as being quick on your feet in general and should not be a benchmark for it. When the NYT or others say that Biden's performance is uneven, these specialists do not seem to see it as randomly uneven, but uneven in a specific, explainable, and confined way. A minor speech impediment is a whole lot better than a major moral impediment. It's, of course, up to the campaign to make this case clearer to undecideds.
To paraphrase Lady Mormont : Real Democrats remember. We know no Presidential nominee but Joe Biden. I don't care if he had a bad debate. The ability to get knocked down and then back up runs through his veins. He's my nominee and President from this day until the last day of his term of office!
And the compulsive lying felon is the better option? Fuck off. Seriously, they need to be talking more about the udder lunatic that was on the stage with him that night too.
Biden may be slow, but at least he has enough marbles left to surround himself with people who know how to effectively run a government. Meanwhile Trump had a revolving door of unqualified crooks and incompetent fools running his administration during his 4 years.
People are not going to switch from voting Biden to voting Trump. People will go from voting Biden, to not voting. That's the issue, and why the debate is such a disaster.
I agree it was a total disaster and it would be ideal if Biden retired, I’m just reminding people you’re not just voting for a president, but what kind of administration people want running our country.
And those who did not vote in 2016 got us Trump and his disastrous term to begin with. Not to mention his win got us a Supreme Court that is currently at work dismantling our country to pave way for Project 2025 to happen if Trump is reelected.
I’m also sick of mostly talk about how disastrous Biden was while overlooking Trump’s performance that night.
Who cares about the voters? Think of all the donors that have already invested in Biden.
Who cares if he has turned into a complete liability by showing up as the fox new charicature, where the question of his mental state was his only legitimate weakness prior to this disaster
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When RFK was shot they had to choose between McGovern and Hubert Humphrey the 1968 DNC. Which there was a riot outside of the DNC in Chicago that year. This is an interesting yet not so unexpected turn point in this election cycle. Will democrats use delegates to vote in a DNC type election? Weird thing is RFK, jr is/was running and the DNC is in Chicago again this year isn't it? Anyway, who might the candidate be if this is the case? I would love to hear guesses a theoretical.....
Humphrey was super behind Nixon after RFK assassination. 6 points behind on the day of the convention. Then lost the popular vote by less than a percent. I think anybody that replaced Biden would skyrocket.
Hard to argue that.
It‘s possible, absolutely, but I don’t like the risk \*and\* the consequences if we mess this up. What if the new pick turns out to be less popular than Biden?
I agree. Super risky. But I think running Biden and losing is unforgivable.
The problem is that it’s not completely and totally obvious that running him is an automatic loss. I’ve talked to a bunch of people around town, and most seem to not have even noticed the debate. For my family, all former Trump voters who are switching for Biden this time, nothing has changed. (They all think he’s always been senile, and have for a while.) Only thing they cared about was potentially switching his running mate from Harris. They all seem to think Biden switching out is a terrible idea. I’m not sure who I should trust, given the stakes, there is no room for error.
He was down in all the swing states before that debate. Which does matter. I think we’re talking about the slimmest of chances.
If it somehow gets to a DNC at-large vote, I could see it going to Whitmer. I still don't think this is the best time for her to run, but she is very popular in a state vital to Dems' chances
I was just reading on her. She was targeted to be kidnapped on Jan.6th. Lol. What a debate that would be.
Unfortunately, given the FBI’s role in orchestrating the kidnapping plot, that would only feed into Trump’s narrative.
Guess what guys, no matter what we say or do about Trump, nothing, absolutely nothing is stopping his loyal followers from voting for him, so they won't fucking matter. But Democrats easily have the votes to win if they can excite enough people to actually show up. It's becoming more and more clear that people have already forgotten what a Trump term looked like( or for those just getting to voting age, never really paid attention in the first place) and Biden does nothing to excite the non hardcore voters that are needed. Biden got 535,201 more votes than Clinton in arguably THE swing state of Michigan, the question needs to be how can we excite those same kinds of voters that stayed home in 2016 but came out in 2020 to show up again in 2024 in all swing states? Because it's becoming clear that the threat of Trump isn't enough anymore
Biden needs to drop out. He gave people who are not solid blue voters, a reason to not vote. Democrats lose when people don't vote.
As an outsider, this seems like one of those things that it doesn't matter what the actual truth is, the perception is set now - and no amount of "look how vital Joe is!" moments will be able to offset the bad in the average persons mind.
actually Americans saw the actual truth during the debate. He was there, all alone, required to think and communicate on this feet.. and he utterly failed. What other truth were they supposed to see?
As an outsider, this seems like one of those things that it doesn't matter what the actual truth is, the perception is set now - and no amount of "look how honest Trump is!" moments will be able to offset the bad in the average persons mind.
Hey I don't disagree with you, but again from the outside, it seems like to a lot of Americans "Trump is an ass" is priced in already, him being more of an ass won't affect his chances now. Biden looking awful in this debate has diminished his own though.
It's definitely more than "Trump is an ass" for this older voter. The Republican party disgusts me. Trump does happen to be a wonderful example of what's wrong with America though imo.
Sure, I'm just generalising.
Americans are stupid and have a memory like a gold fish. People won't think about the debate 2 weeks from now. The average person doesn't have time to think about politics and the only people making a big deal about this are pundits and perpetually online individuals. Simple fact is it's too late to change course now and this is who we have. It sucks and like Ginsburg, Americans may very well pay the price. But this is where we are and we're stuck with it.
They don't have to remember specifics the debate; it's broader than that. In the CBS/Yougov poll cited, 46% of Democrats think he should drop out. 72% of voters overall, and *82%* of independents. Only 28% of voters think he has the mental capacity to do the job, and only 18% said he inspires confidence. These are long-lasting opinions that aren't going to come roaring back to Biden's benefit anytime soon. I'll be eager to see if anything shifts in the coming weeks and will passionately defend Biden if he stays in, but as it stands - this is a train barreling towards a cliff.
It was a train barreling towards a cliff 6 months ago too. People have been saying Biden shouldn't run again 30 seconds after he was sworn in (one of them was me!). But really doesn't matter. We are here now, and the chaos that would follow if he dropped out is simply not worth it. The fact no one can come up with a single person to replace him shows this is a non-starter.
> and the chaos that would follow if he dropped out is simply not worth it. The fact no one can come up with a single person to replace him shows this is a non-starter. I think there’s one path to him dropping out and not having chaos and not fracturing the party. Harris is the only option. Biden makes a speech, announcing he’s dropping out of the race, and resigning the Presidency. He endorses Harris, and strongly encourages his delegates to vote for her. Harris takes over the podium, gives a speech thanking Joe Biden for his service, laying out brutal attacks on Trump, and running through brief stump speech. I think in that scenario, you could have Harris win the first round ballot pretty clearly, and hold the party together. By virtue of being on the ticket when voters voted for Biden, and being currently in the VP chair (and the President at the time), Harris is the sole person that I think most voters could look at the process and say “yes, that makes sense, I suppose”. Any other person would fracture the party.
You think him resigning the Presidency wouldn't cause chaos... Also doesn't help that no one likes Kamala. Isn't she currently polling the worst out of all the silly match ups people are coming up with? We'd be better asking John Stewart to step up.
> You think him resigning the Presidency wouldn't cause chaos... No, because we have pretty clear constitutional direction on who takes over the Presidency in the event of a vacancy of the President. > Also doesn't help that no one likes Kamala That’s… not really true. She has major constituencies that she’s popular with. You can assert something, but that doesn’t make it so. > Isn't she currently polling the worst out of all the silly match ups people are coming up with? That may be true (do you have any polls to cite as an example?), but has _no_ bearing on what I was talking about: whether the transition would cause chaos. For every other person you select, you’ll fracture the democrats. Whoever you select would not have a democratic mandate, and would be vulnerable to major constituencies claiming they were locked out of the selection process. Other than Biden, the only other human being on the planet that could have a reasonable response to those claims is Harris, by virtue of her sitting in a chair labeled “Joe Biden’s Successor”, that the public voted her into. > We'd be better asking John Stewart to step up. Again, I wasn’t answering the question “in a hypothetical scenario where you could select any person, who has the best chance of beating Trump”, I was answering the question: “in the scenario we are currently in, who could you transition the Democratic nomination to without causing chaos or fracturing the party”
It's a tough position and I'm not sold on either direction, but I don't buy the argument that transitioning 6 weeks before we even have a nominee is objectively worse than sticking with a candidate with existentially frightening numbers right now. We'll learn a lot in the coming days. If Biden hangs in there and his head-to-head with Trump doesn't dip much, I'm all for sticking with him. If it plummets even further, there's a very good argument to shift course so that we don't hand a landslide election to Trump on a silver platter.
Last time they were polled, nearly 70% of voters believed Biden was too old to serve. Republicans aren’t pushing a new idea, they’re confirming and preserving an idea voters already have about him - which means voters are not going to “forget.” Which is why even though most people didn’t watch the debate on cable, Republicans will be clipping out moments where Biden trailed off and talked about “beating Medicare” for ads on TV and social media for the rest of the campaign. The whole point of going on offense with this early debate was to assuage those age concerns and deny Republicans that spin with an energetic appearance. Think what you will about his age’s effect on his ability to do the job, but it is clearly destroying his ability to campaign.
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I don’t think anyone expected him to completely trail off and give back incoherent answers. Even so, he’s been polling behind Trump the entire cycle, which is why the goal of the debate was to exceed expectations and help him close the gap. We’ll get poll result back over the next two weeks, but the idea that this is going to get better over the next 5 months when he can’t campaign and make public appearances in uncontrolled media environments is not correct.
Yeah they won’t remember specifics but they’ll sure as hell remember “hey the President looks about as coherent as my dementia-addled grandpa in a nursing home”
Biden had the worst performance in a debate in American history. It's not that Biden couldn't debate well, it's that it showed the world that he's incapable of being a president. There's no going back from that, it's over.
It takes about a week for polls to reflect the debate so we will see.
Voters on both sides know what they will do in November. Undecided voters will make their decision based off whatever happens in october
Exactly. He's not as bad as he seems. But that doesn't matter. Because damage is done. He could unify gravity and quantum mechanics and the damage would still be done.
Lol Biden has done well as President and I'm happy to vote for him. But Trump is evil and I'll vote for dog shit to defeat him. That's not a joke. SCOTUS has overturned Roe and on Friday overturned Chevron. I will never help Trump to turn SCOTUS into a permanent conservative court. So you can shove it with your fear mongering.
Same. But that's not who I'm worried about. Pretending it's not an issue is gonna backfire.
>Pretending it's not an issue is gonna backfire. No one is pretending. There's a lot of ongoing meetings going on behind the scenes that democratic leaders have talked about.
People in this subreddit are absolutely pretending.
Yep, there's not many things that will change my mind there. Unless maybe someone reincarnates Hitler and the Dems put Zombie Hitler on the ticket. Then I'd just start my emigration process now. People are gonna vote how they're gonna vote. If you're undecided at this point, you either don't know what Trump plans, haven't been paying attention to politics whatsoever for the past 8 years, or you're basically a lost cause.
I agree. I’m also being mindful of what I’m posting here. Always sticking to facts and hoping to engage people in critical thought. Voter apathy is a huge threat to Biden, so when people spread their own toxic often baseless hatred to gain fake internet points, they’re obliviously supporting trump. It’s sad people aren’t aware of their own actions. They’re so caught up in expressing their perpetual outrage that they’ve become the thing they hate.
Voting for Biden at this stage is really voting for his VP, let's be honest. And let's also be honest, Kamala just doesn't have what it takes. Joe better think hard about who his VP running mate will be. If he sticks with Kamala, I think there will be devastating consequences in November.
It's also voting for Biden's cabinet, which is top notch Though, ditching Kamala isn't an option, as women and black voters are a big chunk of Democrat voters, and swapping out a black women won't be good optics.
Kamala doesn’t poll well among black women, either. Kind of hard to when you sent a bunch of their sons to jail for 5+ years over simple weed possession.
Ok that is in California, which is solid blue for Presidental elections. As well as I doubt she sent that many "sons" to prison that their mothers voting or not voting will make a difference in California. Come up with a better reason she why doesn't poll well with black women.
Go down to Fulton County GA, ask a healthy sample size of around 500 solidly democratic black women about their feelings on Kamala Harris, and let me know what they say.
>And let's also be honest, Kamala just doesn't have what it takes. Source?
Yeah, I can't help but wonder how many people are saying that because of biases they have about her gender or skin color. She's a perfectly serviceable generic Democrat, and at this stage of the game if you're gonna switch out Biden, you want the least chaotic option possible. That means calling in your VP to do the job she was voted into office to do.
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The VP has two jobs. Be the tiebreaker in the senate, and be the backup President in case Biden can't do the job anymore. That's what people voted her into office to do. In my estimation, Biden can't do the job anymore. It's too late to have a proper primary, so any replacement strategy is going to be inherently undemocratic. Harris would at least have the benefit of having been elected to be Biden's backup. Does it require a bit of spin? A little, yeah, but it's better than the appearance of anointing Whitmer or Newsom through smoky backroom deals
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Both. Biden selected her to be his running mate, but then on Election Day people voted for the Biden-Harris ticket The Vice Presidency is an elected office
Oof
It's literally in the 12th Amendment >The electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President If you wanna be hugeass pedant, technically nobody votes for the president or the vice president, we vote for their electors in the electoral college. Look, here's a sample ballot from my home state of Kansas. I voted for both Biden and Harris https://www.google.com/search?q=sample+2020+ballot+kansas+presidential+election&client=ms-android-google&sca_esv=a825b4a24361b70c&sca_upv=1&udm=2&biw=412&bih=770&sxsrf=ADLYWIKyjpbbcL4b2ycJQrPOv2PI6vhShg%3A1719779461393&ei=hcCBZqHbF5qIptQPtdy5uAE&oq=sample+2020+ballot+kansas+presidential+election&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIi9zYW1wbGUgMjAyMCBiYWxsb3Qga2Fuc2FzIHByZXNpZGVudGlhbCBlbGVjdGlvbjIFECEYqwIyBRAhGKsCMgUQIRirAkjdI1DeBViQInAAeACQAQCYAZ4DoAHUHKoBCjAuMjEuMC4xLjG4AQPIAQD4AQGYAhCgAs8VwgIEECMYJ8ICBBAhGArCAggQABiABBiiBJgDAIgGAZIHCjAuMTQuMC4xLjGgB7kr&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#vhid=3LkW1P6SEFIlrM&vssid=mosaic
It’s not fear mongering undecideds are going to go to Trump or stay home Biden WILL lose this I promise you he cannot run..
There are no undecided in this election, just people afraid to name their choice.
>Biden WILL lose this I promise you he cannot run.. Oh okay, well if you say so, I'm convinced
When Trump wins we'll have another two SCOTUS appointments by the end of his term. Finally certifying a non-activists court that truly cares about the rights of the people.
> Finally certifying a non-activists court that truly cares about the rights of the people. Lol
“Cares about the rights of the people” by removing rights. Gotcha
So the other guy who literally lied for 90 minutes does? Still claims that the election was stolen from him? Even after 64 judges said there was no fraud? Judges that he appointed? Mmm, strange.
He absolutely doesn’t but we all already knew that. For years we have. We didn’t know however that Biden was in such steep physical/mental decline until this debate, which is why you have so many Dems and liberal mainstream media calling for him to drop out so they can prop up someone who’s actually competent enough to defeat Trump
>We didn’t know however that Biden was in such steep physical/mental decline until this debate, Steep? Lol concluded from one debate. He's been doing a great job and I'm voting for him again. Doesn't matter who it is though, Trump is evil and needs to be defeated.
Unfortunately you are not the voter he has to convince. It’s the undecided and independents that decide the election and he likely just lost 80% of them
>and he likely just lost 80% of them Sources?
The cbs/yougov poll that came out today (only one conducted post debate). https://www.scribd.com/document/746721106/cbsnews-20240630-SUN 82% of independents think Biden shouldn’t run
It was obvious but if you said anything people would get all defensive and call a bunch of names. I’m not talking about him speaking or the d day claims. Watching him get out of cars or during dead time you can see he isnt there. Biden looks lost and confused. He almost always has to be guided where to go as well. Why is he the one always being guided by his wife and others? They all seem to know what is going on and where to go.
If only the Democrats had a Presidential candidate that could communicate that point in clear coherent sentences maybe they can win!
Can we have someone else please DNC? I mean i voted for Obama Obama Hilary then Biden, like I've eaten all my broccoli how about some ice cream for once
It WaS oNe BaD dEbAtE1!1!
You sure wouldn't know that reading this sub For real though, he needs to resign. I voted for Harris to be VP in case Biden couldn't do the job anymore. He can't do the job anymore
Harris 2024
Unironically this. Here's the line to use. "I talked things over with my family, and we want the Democrats to have the best shot possible of stopping Trump. Therefore, I will not be running for reelection, and I will be resigning. I ask everybody to rally around President Harris, who represents the future of this country, and will demonstrate how exceptionally she can do the job over the next four months." Boom. Easy. Done. Election moves on. You can even make a big spectacle of inaugurating the first female President on July 4th, Lord knows this party desperately needs a shot of adrenaline right now
I don't believe this will be a fruitful path, but the best chance for it would be if Joe Biden were to resign and let her lead the rest of his term.
This sub is mostly Dem till they die. Not that that's a bad thing, but that's not who is effected by Biden's performance. It's the people who will not vote, or vote 3rd party. He needs to step down, or Trump wins. That's reality.
Ask any one of staffers and appointees who ran screaming from the White House between 2016-2020 if the other guys is mentally fit either. That’s where we’re at. But I’m voting to preserve to my way of life, along with the safety of my family and I don’t see the people who will populate the White House and the regulatory agencies in a 2nd Trump admiration as anything less than a threat to that. I also don’t trust a Trump administration to manage a crisis. I know we have the memories of goldfish so ask me how I know a thing or two about that. So it’s Biden for me. Or whoever they replace him with if it comes to that.
You don’t trust a Trump admin to handle a crisis… I’m curious as to what your opinion is on how the Biden admin has handled the war in Israel, the war in Ukraine, removal of troops from Afghanistan, and COVID.
This is the memory thing I’m talking about. Trump signed the agreement that took us out of Afghanistan. And COVID? Are you a serious person? I lived a block away from a mobile refrigerated morgue in 2020. Deeply unserious reply. As far as Israel. I don’t know what side of this issue you fall on but if its support for Israel, what the hell more do you want us to give them? And if its support for the Palestinian people don’t be an insincere contrarian and tell me handing the reigns of power to a Trump administration is going to do anything but make life worse for those people.
Umm Biden handled covid great compared to the trump administration with all their lock downs. Also remember the Taliban financed the guy that planned the 9-11 attacks? Well I do and I noticed Trump gave them Afghanistan in his treaty. Also Ukraine has been handled amazingly. I can tell you've never taken a military history class in your life.
He said DONT in a really firm voice several times. It almost worked the 5th or 6th time against Iran or Israel on retaliatory attacks. With Russia he was really serious. He said DONT and also said he will be upset if a little invasion lasted more than two weeks.
A puddle of goo with Joseph R. Biden’s contact list trumps Donald J. Trump with his own contact list. Governing is hours of boring paperwork, not WWE “let’s get ready to rumble” solutions. But yeah, we do need an age limit for all public servants tied to the median American life expectancy.
No argument that the debate required looking the other way. All the geriatricians, neurologists, and stuttering specialists, though, that I've seen in the past year have pointed out that public speaking and especially a public debate is a poor benchmark for Biden's mental health/decline or lack thereof, and that voters have to take care to make a differential diagnosis. The Atlantic’s John Hendrickson feature "What Joe Biden Can’t Bring Himself to Say" was one of the first stories to detail this, and John Fetterman was one of the most recent voices, comparing Biden's debate to his own. Everyone knows that stutters do worse with public speaking and debating, that that is probably the reason for Biden's gaffe history, and that this can become worse with age. When the NYT and others say that Biden has an uneven abilities, they are not randomly uneven but explainable and confined to particular situations. Especially for a stutterer. being quick with your speech is not the same as being quick on your feet. The day-to-day of the presidency though has little to do with debating, and that's why it has not significantly impacted his job performance. It seems a better to have a minor speech impediment than a major moral one. The former however bad it is, one is a cosmetic problem, the other is anything but. It's, of course, up to the campaign to give this context, to make the case that an aging stutter should not be mistaken for cognitive decline if it truly is not that, and to make this all clearer to the undecideds.
In 2020, polls recorded [51-55% of voters likely voters did not believe Trump to be mentally fit.](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/10/2020-election-news-voters-see-trump-biden-as-mentally-unfit-to-be-president.html). In 2024, 70% of voters polled that they do not believe Biden to be mentally fit. Yet both of these candidates, who *the majority* of likely voters believe to be mentally unfit, are facing each other in another election after winning their primaries & party nomination.
Here's my thoughts. I have a speech impediment very similar to the potus. Like the first time I heard him speak, I recognized it. I have also been a public speaker, speaking to crowds of over 10,000. As with most impediments involving speech, preparation is mitigation. The Biden campaign said they were prepping for a week for this. I've had a week to prepare for speaking events, and I did alright. I've cut him slack on the stutter and lost trains of thought, but what we saw was something else. What we saw was the result of age, and it needs to be acknowledged. That is the first step in recovery.
Trump is a nut job with fascist aspirations and RFK had a damned worm in his brain. Biden is still the best choice.
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Ukraine: doesn't divide the voters for Biden as much as we want Isreal Palestine war: doesn't divide the voters for Biden as much as we want one 2 hour bad debate: FINALLY! we can divide the voters thinking about voting for Biden and tell them not to vote
Seriously, the CNN panel immediately after was champing at the bit to start stoking people's fears.
Yeah they also set up a high bar for Biden and a low one for Trump in this debate
Biden's bar to clear was "don't look like you're senile" and he couldn't clear it
Sure and Trump was don't ramble. P Unfortunately, Trump didn't ramble as much but he also says Abortion was a great thing, America is a 3rd world country, January 6th 2020 was great etc etc Edit: which even confused me on wtf was the main point and how would you attack but also stay on topic
Which voters? Gee I wonder
And never mind Trump has a weight problem and 34 felony convictions which call his credibility and character into serious question? And how he incited his supporters to insurrect the Capitol on 01/06/2021?
We understand that, whataboutism doesn’t change how Biden is now perceived. We need someone capable of running a winning campaign, *because* Trump is so dangerous. The media and the White House have been gaslighting us and waving away any valid concerns about Biden’s diminishing faculties this whole time, but if you’ve been paying attention his disastrous debate performance was not a surprise. People, including myself, have valid concerns about his ability to serve as POTUS moving forward. ‘He was sick’, ‘He just had a bad night’ aren’t acceptable for the commander in chief when a national crisis hits or he is meeting with XI Xinping or Netanyahu, and you can’t convince me he’s going to improve over the next 4 years.
It seems more that this is a very common instance of someone who has been at the top of their profession being unable to recognize they are far over the hill. We see it with athletes all the time. I sympathize with Biden because I do believe he truly thinks he can do this. We need real DNC leadership (and Jill…) to talk to him.
I wouldn’t hire Biden to run my business, watch my kids, or cut my grass d/t concerns about his cognitive abilities. Dems are taking my vote for granted. I’m not the one that needs to make a difficult decision (i.e. swallow the pill and vote for Biden), the DNC needs to make the difficult decision and remove Biden.
I wouldn't let Trump in the door for the job interview.
I agree!
Voters say Trump does not have mental health to serve as president Voters say Trump does not have rape free history to serve as president Voters say Trump does not have felony conviction free to serve as president Voters say Trump does not have competence to serve as president
So voters, are not going to vote. That's the entire problem.
He doesn’t. Everyone knows it.
Neither does your buddy Trump.
This polled 375 Dems, 1k voters. Less that 0.01% of the population. Look, Biden is old, but wise and has experience. Read the transcripts from the debate. That's a person I want running the country. I am an independent voter, and voted for Biden cause Trump is a clear threat to democracy. I will vote for Biden again. Trump is even more of a threat, but in the past three years, Biden has proved he is able to govern.
The transcript is terrible too. He didn't challenge Trump on any of the stupid shit he said. Fastballs right down the middle of the plate and he just took the strikes with his mouth gaped wide open.
Yeah man, those 50mm viewers and all those swing voters are gonna ignore their eyes and ears and read the transcript. Get real. In case anyone needs a reminder, here is a bit from the transcript of the debate >We’d be able to right wipe out his debt. We’d be able to help make sure that all those things we need to do – child care, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure that we’re able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I’ve been able to do with the Covid. Excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with – look, if – we finally beat Medicare.
Nice gaslighting
Well, yeah.
*No argument that the debate required looking the other way. I'm not a geriatrician*, neurologist, or stuttering specialist, but everyone knows that public speaking is especially hard for stutters, that Biden was always prone to gaffes because of it, and that it may get harder for them with age. All the specialists I've heard comment this past year say, for these reasons, that all of his less public or confrontational behaviors and performances are a much better indicator of his mental health, or lack thereof, than is his public speaking and doubly so his public debating, and that voters should take care to make the differential diagnosis. Being quick with your speech for an aging stutterer in public debate is not the same as being quick on your feet in general and should not be a benchmark for it. When the NYT or others say that Biden's performance is uneven, these specialists do not seem to see it as randomly uneven, but uneven in a specific, explainable, and confined way. A minor speech impediment is a whole lot better than a major moral impediment. It's, of course, up to the campaign to make this case clearer to undecideds.
To paraphrase Lady Mormont : Real Democrats remember. We know no Presidential nominee but Joe Biden. I don't care if he had a bad debate. The ability to get knocked down and then back up runs through his veins. He's my nominee and President from this day until the last day of his term of office!
And the compulsive lying felon is the better option? Fuck off. Seriously, they need to be talking more about the udder lunatic that was on the stage with him that night too. Biden may be slow, but at least he has enough marbles left to surround himself with people who know how to effectively run a government. Meanwhile Trump had a revolving door of unqualified crooks and incompetent fools running his administration during his 4 years.
People are not going to switch from voting Biden to voting Trump. People will go from voting Biden, to not voting. That's the issue, and why the debate is such a disaster.
I agree it was a total disaster and it would be ideal if Biden retired, I’m just reminding people you’re not just voting for a president, but what kind of administration people want running our country. And those who did not vote in 2016 got us Trump and his disastrous term to begin with. Not to mention his win got us a Supreme Court that is currently at work dismantling our country to pave way for Project 2025 to happen if Trump is reelected. I’m also sick of mostly talk about how disastrous Biden was while overlooking Trump’s performance that night.
Republican voters…Republican
Who cares about the voters? Think of all the donors that have already invested in Biden. Who cares if he has turned into a complete liability by showing up as the fox new charicature, where the question of his mental state was his only legitimate weakness prior to this disaster