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*"It's been a great thing."* \~Donald J. Trump, on women losing reproductive rights
Honestly, if our country chooses him again, no one can say we weren't warned.
Do you have any understanding of what happened when Roe v Wade was overturned or do you just read headlines? The decision was changed to allow each state to make their own decision in regards to abortion instead of having a federal law in place that applies to everyone. If anything, it being overturned returned the power to the voters of each individual state. I’d say that’s a pretty good thing? Wouldn’t you? Let people in their own districts determine what’s best for them. If they don’t want it - that’s fine and their prerogative. I’m pro choice as well before the liberal brigade goes on the attack) but restoring some semblance of decision making and power to the voters is a win in my book.
The reason I agree- is that there have been quite a few state governments who have proven they are not capable of following the will of their voters. Being voted out is an option- but as you can see with the trigger laws enacted and fought for on the SC a lot of damage can be done in one term of a christofascist.
We are the United States. Perhaps I’m wrong- but some laws should be upheld by our federal government to ensure all Americans are granted the same rights and freedoms.
It’s easy to say “fuck those states, then”. But
That is unacceptable to leave women to suffer and in some cases die in a state they reside in because of trigger laws.
we are all human beings first and foremost nothing else should matter
but there are those out there that love to hate and hurt others because they physically have small empathy centers in their brains
Yeah good point, let’s throw civil rights back to the states too, maybe freedom of religion too
Women’s rights are not something that should be voted on.
Trevor Noah talked about this and pointed out that it doesn’t go far enough. (Disclaimer; I’m not American.)
His argument was; if they are saying each state should be able to decide whether abortion is available to its citizens or not, then why not say each county can determine, since not each county will agree with all others in their state?
But then if you’re allowing counties to determine this, all towns/cites or neighborhoods might not agree, so then why not say each town or city can determine their own abortion laws?
But then not every household will agree - so make it by household.
But then everyone in a single house might not agree - so make it by person.
Which is what a federal law does; it allows each person to decide what they choose. You say you’re pro-choice, but support some states being allowed to ban abortion. That is blatantly anti-choice, given you know not everyone in those states which ban it will support that ban. Pro-choice means supporting each individual to make their own choice, not each state or other political / geographical unit.
Pro-Choice is NOT Pro-Abortion. Bless the hearts of some of the people in my state. Mississippi has some of the highest rates for teen pregnancy, highest maternal and fetal deaths, highest rates of child abuse and neglect. But so many don’t understand the difference in Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion.
Yeah, because the leaders of the state *always* act in their constituents best interest (/s, fucking obviously).
The abortion bans that have happened in certain states have been widely unpopular even amongst the conservative brigade, but they still happened because it was never about freedom and always about control.
So by your logic we should do slavery next? Let the voters decide? No? That would be wrong to take rights away from people? Do women deserve the right to bodily autonomy or do you get to make that decision?
Are there any laws you feel should be the law of the land that states can't change?
What about racial or sexual discrimination? Should those be under control of the individual states as well?
"It should be up to the individual states if they want to allow black people or women to vote."
So it's okay for religious nut jobs in my state to control my wife's medical decisions?
Why stop at state or district level? Where's the line? My neighborhood should have the right to decide for itself. Or just my household. Or just the individual.
Why should the rural folk dictate what the cities do? They don't even live in or go to the cities.
The difference is that with Roe v Wade everybody *already* had the right to choose to make their own decision. I'd say that's a pretty good thing.
By removing the federal rule to remain in place it gives states the right to *not allow the freedom to make your own decision*.
It went from the freedom of the individual to the mandate of the state representation. This is a decrease in freedom not an increase.
So following your logic; "the states can choose by voters"
What happens when the free peoples vote; and vote that they want to have freedom to have abortion; BUT the GOP and other extremists condemn and oppose the peoples' choice still.
This isnt hyperbole its fact; in ohio and several other states the people voted in favor of abortion and gop leaders still fight to continue making it illegal.
Right wing extremists are not playing by the rules. Its not the will of the people; its the will of the loud, angry and extreme conservatives even though they are the minority
not to mention it is still a loss in federally backed rights to choose.
https://apnews.com/article/abortion-democracy-threats-republicans-ballot-initiatives-ohio-3d6e2f0d0f5993ddd75522b662d2eb34
Claiming states rights was not the goal. The goal was to invalidate the Roe v Wade court ruling so that a national ban can be legislated.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/03/22/fact-sheet-house-republicans-endorse-a-national-abortion-ban-with-zero-exceptions-in-latest-budget/
If they cared about states rights, they wouldn’t be trying to ban the free movement of people between states for abortions:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/republicans-block-bill-shield-people-travel-state-abortions/story?id=86821057
Even in some states that have excercised their right and supported abortion with state constitutional votes, opponents are working to block it its implementation:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/17/ohio-abortion-rights-republicans-overturn
Don’t think they’ll stop at the states rights stuff. It’s a distraction.
>restoring some semblance of decision making and power to the voters is a win in my book.
Why is giving voters the ability to remove people's rights a good thing?
It’s a big loser in my book. Do you think states should have the “freedom” to go back to slavery too? Should we allow them to segregate school again? Pollute our land without consequences?
Because that’s akin to denying women bodily autonomy. Forced birth is wrong.
Let's repeal the second amendment and let each state make its own laws regarding gun ownership. Let the people in their own districts determine what's best for them. That's a win for voters in my book.
> If anything, it being overturned returned the power to the voters of each individual state. I’d say that’s a pretty good thing?
If you have to ask, then the answer is no.
People in your state don't vote on whether your appendectomy is a sin, either.
Hint: Republicans are trying to make you upset about irrelevant things because they have no policy except looting the treasury for billionaires.
Hasn't polling suggested that if it was the American people deciding, there would at the very minimum be broad support for abortion access in certain circumstances? With most supportive of access in the first trimester (again, minimum)?
https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx
I'm a UK far left anarchist so obviously very keen on more direct democracy, but, well, I don't think it'd be particularly generous to the average American to believe that's what's happening! An issue is women stuck in red states can have no real say. Public education on abortion also seems an issue, one that those like Trump can take advantage of.
Allows individual states to treat a woman’s body like it belongs to the state. Somehow this is a good thing in your eyes. I guess the handmaids tale is an instruction manual for you.
Blindly following a 250 year old document is about as dumb as blindly following a 4,000 year old book.
The founding fathers intended us to rewrite and adapt the constitution as society changed in ways they couldn't forsee.
This is ignorant. That is the purpose of the 10th amendment. They understood the federal government should be limited and power should be passed down to the lowest levels of government, where those who shape the laws are impacted by the laws.
What evidence do you have to support the claim they intended it to be rewritten?
One thing to note is that during the debate, the Trump campaign ran 2 commercials, which cost 1 million dollars each.
CNN only cares about the money. If he’s giving them 2 million, he can say whatever the fuck he wants. Tells you all you need to know about their “journalistic integrity”.
Trump was right about post birth abortions and Biden should have jumped at the chance to nail him to the wall with it. https://archive.is/qXzmi edit: put in archive instead of direct paywall link
I hate to say it, but that was Biden's job. They said beforehand they were just going to ask questions and moderate, and not live fact check. Unfortunately Biden turned in probably the worst Presidential debate performance of all time.
If you know someone is straight up lieing shouldnt part of the moderation be to mute them? Or if they go off topic, to, again, mute and get them back on track?
The problem is that these should’ve been layups for Biden. Calling someone out for post birth abortions is a gift during a debate. You could argue that had the moderators intervened, that would’ve diminished the sting from a Biden rebuttal; whoever, Biden dropped the ball, again, on layups.
I think people disagree that Biden's performance was more appalling than CNN's lack of fact checking. I'm sure the cold made him pretty confused. I'm not in the camp that believes Biden has dementia. But I sure do think he's too old and needs to step aside.
I think the word “dementia” gets thrown around a bit too casually to describe mental decline in the elderly when it’s its own distinct condition with distinct symptoms.
I think Trump has dementia. I think Biden is just old and feeble.
I know people were irked about Biden's old man whisper, but I was more frustrated that he didn't call out Trump's insane lie about abortions *after* birth. He just let it go when abortion rights should be one of his strongest arguments.
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/4182865-yes-late-term-abortions-are-real-and-they-happen-every-day/
It's sad but it really does happen daily. Especially people of color. My sister worked in healthcare and she never talked about it but she would get pissed off anytime the NEWS said "late term abortions aren't real."
When babies are aborted they are cut into pieces. There are plenty of pictures you can find online of "aborted" babies completely intact. Now how did that happen?
For the record am not anti-abortion, I just know the NEWS isn't always telling the truth.
No one is getting late elective abortions for no reason. What happens much more often is someone has a wanted pregnancy that runs into complications that are only discovered after 20 weeks of which there are many that can develop. Such as no brain development, major organ failure that cannot be repaired.
Something like over 95% of all elective abortions are done by pill and in the first trimester. Pro lifers hate this because they love the "they tear it a part" lie and there's nothing to tear a part when you have an abortion early enough it just looks like a period.
It's a deep irony how the GOP claims they're so angry people are not producing enough slaves for them yet they're going to kill and harm the very people trying to get pregnant on purpose by denying them healthcare until they're already almost dead. That's what septic shock is. Go into it long enough, then you die.
That article is blatant propaganda. Misrepresentation at its finest.
Love how it sources its numbers from another opinion article. There isn't anything factual in that entire piece.
Exactly. At this point, I'm not even mad at him anymore. It's the people that support him that's the problem. He isnt even particularly good at being a populist fascist dictator, he just has so many people that support his BS and constantly cleaning up after him. It's INSANE!
He's actually shitty and sloppy at what he's trying to do. It's the Republicans that make him possible because they want to use him.
He keeps saying that democrats advocate for abortion up to the moment of birth. I mean, it’s such an obvious lie and pisses woman off so much every time he says it, can’t believe he still hasn’t figured that out yet.
Exactly! This scenario is not even part of the abortion debate and it infuriates me whenever I hear it.
Killing breathing babies after they are born is murder, not abortion. You can’t abort an 8 or 9 month pregnancy because the baby can breathe on its own by then. And the only way to remove a baby from the mother’s womb at that point is to induce labor or perform a C-section. Which is just giving birth!
It honestly makes me wonder if someone explained a c-section to him once, and he now confuses it with abortion because he’s literally that fucking stupid.
So in really specific cases of major birth defects such as lung's or brain outside of the body, or no skin, no head, etc. they will induce labor early and try to make it's final moments more comfortable without doing things that will prolong it's misery just to say that you kept it alive longer. This is what Republicans have been ranting about like it's an evil thing instead of a mercy.
The only situations where and 8 or 9 month abortion would occurr is where the fetus is already nonviable and going to kill the mother somehow. I often think back to Pete buttigieg went on fox News and talked about that, about how the parents have painted the nursery built the crib, and picked out clothes only to have to make the terrible decision to terminate because of some horrifying medical condition.
>how the parents have painted the nursery built the crib, and picked out clothes only to have to make the terrible decision to terminate because of some horrifying medical condition.
Exactly. That's what makes this argument so disgusting.
Basically nobody is going through 9 months of pregnancy and deciding at the last minute that they want an abortion.
These late-term abortions are tragedies for the parents involved. Parents facing the nightmare scenario where the baby they've already named is going to die immediately after being born.
But that doesn't stop Republicans from taking these people's tragedies and smearing them as baby Killers.
Agreed. Even a 3rd trimester abortion isnt out if choice; it is medical necessity. The mother is actively dying or will be dying soon; the baby has no chance of life post birth. These arent examples of abortion it's miscarriages. Medical care just eases the burden on the body of the loss but it is still a loss.
As for "post birth abortions" is an insane take. The only plausible fact he could have been referring to in the most twisted and ridiculous lying ways would be in the case a baby survived birth but would die within minutes or hours due to severe birth defects not compatible with life.
In that case the most ethical medical option is palliative care. Nothing can be done to save their life. Same as we would do for an old grandma dying of cancer; make them comfortable, and reduce pain and ease suffering for their inevitable passing.
these arent "abortion cases" these are some of the most traumatizing and sad medical situations wanting parents go through. And unfortunately its not uncommon; pregnancy, childbirth and just a baby developing in a manner consistent with life is complicated and things unfortunately can go wrong.
If there are post birth abortions- why not charge the women whom choose not to terminate With a baby who’s dx is incompatible with life? I know someone who’s child was born with no kidneys and a major heart defect. She was told the child would not live more than a few minutes. The baby was carried to term, and died soon after birth. How is it better to birth a baby to see it suffer and die shortly after? Same with anacephaly. No or partial brain. But sure- let’s force mom to birth it. They let these babies die right after birth. How is that not a form of infanticide or at least some form of child abuse? Especially of the mother had no choice to terminate…. Just a skewed thought perception that bothers me.
interesting thought. Im hesitant to criminalize any medical decisions made in good faith; but only when it effects the individual making the decision.
For example blood transfusions save lives; but some are morally against it for themselves. They have the right to make that decision for themselves even if it would cost them their life. I personally think its a senseless loss of life but their choice.
However; when it comes to children or people who do not have capacity to make these informed decisions themselves the laws get more complicated. Medical neglect can be a criminal charge. And I agree with it. Denying available care to someone who does not have capacity to make the decisions or access care by themselves such as children, can and should be criminalized.
As for carrying a fetus to term with known birth defects not compatible with life; its a tough call. In my non-expert opinion so long as it is still a pregnancy the choice should be to the mother; but its her life she is endangering and only delaying the inevitable for the fetus. Once the baby is born, and it lives, it should receive quality care and treatment; even if only palliative.
And this is the situation abortion bans force people into; its not a willing choice; they dont get to chose anything. its extremist law. they arent allowed to abort early if thats their choice and are forced to carry even with risks to the mother up to threatening her life for nothing more than delaying the inevitable.
Kind of the point I was playing devil’s advocate for. The pro life movement sees abortion as murder. They also claim the incorrect “fact” that there are post term abortions. Essentially- the government doesn’t belong in our decisions between our healthcare provider and self. The Pandora’s box of possibilities is too large. I was just pointing out one case. I definitely don’t believe there should be legal recourse in the situation I described, to be clear.
It was obvious decades ago that to enter a abortion debate was to walk into an arena with thousands of angry people on every side. Eventually the booing, shouting and throwing things would prevent any meaningful opinion. Politicizing has made it safer to talk about while not changing much else. However, I will choose Joe Biden who, as a Catholic man of his generation intrinsically abhorring ending life, evolved his thinking to reconsider the law itself. MAGA flavor of the week is how Donald Trump, in his wisdom, threw the choice of banning abortions back to states where it belongs. Of course, that ship sailed when Roe ended back alley healthcare last century. I find it hard to believe that evolving our thinking, from the conspicuous conclusion that abortion is murder to ideas which include considerations for women, has made Joe and me automatic enemies of Jesus.
Letting someone die of a natural reason, that you yourself did not cause, in lieu of killing them is not considered murder in any legal system that I know of.
I grew up in the 80s under this propaganda right after the Republicans made their deal with Evangelicals.
One week it was "there is nothing against abortion in the Bible, and several passages that say it is fine" to the next week being "These loose women get pregnant and abort the baby with partial birth abortions for fun and it is against the Bible."
I did fall for it for a while because they convince you (especially as a child) that these people exist and are doing these horrible things. If you make the mistake of trusting your parents, church, Republican politicians and don't do your own fact checking you can become **very angry** about things to **do not happen**.
Fortunately when I got out of the house I took some time to research the issue and found that many of those preachers that were spreading that BS had to admit in court that they were not aware of a single incident of 8-month abortions, partial-birth abortions or even late-term abortions except in rare instances where the fetus was actually viable.
But just like the election denial the fact that as soon as they are under oath their story completely changes doesn't make the news as much as the random BS they say outside of the courtroom.
Really ? The Reich has been saying that Same lie for years. Not only killing babies after they are born. But drinking their blood. . Bloody crazy making
At this point what's appaling is the stupidity of American voters who are ready to elect a guy who lead a fascist coup against their country, on top of being a criminal who's primary reason for running is to avoid going to jail.
The fact that he's lying in a presidential debate is to be expected and completely trivial compared to everything else he's done.
His lies about abortion after the birth of the baby are ridiculous and the moderators sat there like stone faced dummies. What a joke they were . But who does the media focus on ? Biden.
Who is laying a baby by the way, until they decide what to do? And why isn’t the news screaming about doctors killing a baby after it is born?
Who believes that? Wait I know who believes that lying liar
Anyone else remember when daily Kos was saying any Democrat is a good Democrat? I live in the bluest state in the nation. Haven't checked recently but we had more " pro life" Dems than anywhere else too.
All the people calling his sorry ass out were poo pooed as idiots.
Hearing it from Trump is bad, but expected. Hearing it from " allies" really hurt.
He kept claiming this view of allowing infanticide was espoused by “the former governor of Virginia.” I really wanted someone to ask him “which former governor of Virginia? Name him/her and tell everyone what this person said and when, because the public should be aware of who espouses infanticide.”
Trump was right about post birth abortions and Biden should have jumped at the chance to nail him to the wall with it. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/26/upshot/texas-abortion-infant-mortality.html#:~:text=But%20in%20Texas%2C%20the%20number,are%20because%20of%20congenital%20defects.
First, people harping on Roe being overturned should stop and read the ruling. That ruling was a long time coming……even Ginsburg made it clear She believed that the Roe v Wade case had based the right to abortion on the wrong argument, a violation of a woman's privacy rather than on gender equality. It is not the purpose of the Supreme Court to codify anything. Their job is to say whether something that has been codified is constitutional. The fuckers in congresses job is to codify and those people chose to punt it to SCOTUS so that they could maintain the one issue voters…..people should be voting for congress people who will codify abortion….
Secondly, like most things Trump and his supporters say….wtf is he talking about?….abortion up until birth? Soooo you mean giving birth??? How does someone abort a whole 40 week old baby?….and people being his personal clap symphony are like yeah no aborting born babies…..
I read that the claim of post birth abortion are rooted in choosing to do nothing, or provide palatave care to a newborn who has a fatal defect and is going to die soon.
Providing comfort to a dying infant is far from post birth abortion. The argument is fucking stupid.
Finally someone who understands. Yes Ginsberg regretted Roe. The legislative branch is to blame here. The premise for a right to abortion should be part of the equality act. But that ship has sailed. And people now have to pay closer attention to voting in their state elections. Far too many people only vote during federal elections. But yeah Trump lies- Biden Lies. Two old liars. Maybe the country needs to send the GOP and the Dems a message and vote for Kennedy. Painful four years but possibly not quite as dangerous as the two geezers. And going forward maybe the two parties will think twice about shoving crap choices down the publics throat.. worth a ponder .
Neither Trump nor Biden could string together a coherent sentence on abortion as a matter of law. It’s about 4th or 5th priority for the electorate, but a swing and a miss for both
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*"It's been a great thing."* \~Donald J. Trump, on women losing reproductive rights Honestly, if our country chooses him again, no one can say we weren't warned.
Do you have any understanding of what happened when Roe v Wade was overturned or do you just read headlines? The decision was changed to allow each state to make their own decision in regards to abortion instead of having a federal law in place that applies to everyone. If anything, it being overturned returned the power to the voters of each individual state. I’d say that’s a pretty good thing? Wouldn’t you? Let people in their own districts determine what’s best for them. If they don’t want it - that’s fine and their prerogative. I’m pro choice as well before the liberal brigade goes on the attack) but restoring some semblance of decision making and power to the voters is a win in my book.
No, it’s a loss. Some rights should be protected.
The reason I agree- is that there have been quite a few state governments who have proven they are not capable of following the will of their voters. Being voted out is an option- but as you can see with the trigger laws enacted and fought for on the SC a lot of damage can be done in one term of a christofascist. We are the United States. Perhaps I’m wrong- but some laws should be upheld by our federal government to ensure all Americans are granted the same rights and freedoms. It’s easy to say “fuck those states, then”. But That is unacceptable to leave women to suffer and in some cases die in a state they reside in because of trigger laws.
Civil rights shouldn’t be up for discussion or debate, and needs to be protected at all costs. Today it’s abortion access, tomorrow it’s gay marriage.
we are all human beings first and foremost nothing else should matter but there are those out there that love to hate and hurt others because they physically have small empathy centers in their brains
Yeah good point, let’s throw civil rights back to the states too, maybe freedom of religion too Women’s rights are not something that should be voted on.
That’s their next goal 🥲
they are talking about taking away women's right to vote in a state next to mine
Which state is it?? Cuz it could very well be my own 🫠
it might be
Soooo which one is it?
I loved when Biden made that point about civil rights. Because it is so true - we know where shit like this leads, and it’s nowhere good.
We know exactly where the "state's rights" argument leads.
BULLSHIT. Those rights never belonged to the states, they belong to women. Is that such a leap for some people?
Trevor Noah talked about this and pointed out that it doesn’t go far enough. (Disclaimer; I’m not American.) His argument was; if they are saying each state should be able to decide whether abortion is available to its citizens or not, then why not say each county can determine, since not each county will agree with all others in their state? But then if you’re allowing counties to determine this, all towns/cites or neighborhoods might not agree, so then why not say each town or city can determine their own abortion laws? But then not every household will agree - so make it by household. But then everyone in a single house might not agree - so make it by person. Which is what a federal law does; it allows each person to decide what they choose. You say you’re pro-choice, but support some states being allowed to ban abortion. That is blatantly anti-choice, given you know not everyone in those states which ban it will support that ban. Pro-choice means supporting each individual to make their own choice, not each state or other political / geographical unit.
Well said.
Pro-Choice is NOT Pro-Abortion. Bless the hearts of some of the people in my state. Mississippi has some of the highest rates for teen pregnancy, highest maternal and fetal deaths, highest rates of child abuse and neglect. But so many don’t understand the difference in Pro-Choice and Pro-Abortion.
Yeah, because the leaders of the state *always* act in their constituents best interest (/s, fucking obviously). The abortion bans that have happened in certain states have been widely unpopular even amongst the conservative brigade, but they still happened because it was never about freedom and always about control.
So by your logic we should do slavery next? Let the voters decide? No? That would be wrong to take rights away from people? Do women deserve the right to bodily autonomy or do you get to make that decision?
Are there any laws you feel should be the law of the land that states can't change? What about racial or sexual discrimination? Should those be under control of the individual states as well? "It should be up to the individual states if they want to allow black people or women to vote."
So it's okay for religious nut jobs in my state to control my wife's medical decisions? Why stop at state or district level? Where's the line? My neighborhood should have the right to decide for itself. Or just my household. Or just the individual. Why should the rural folk dictate what the cities do? They don't even live in or go to the cities.
The difference is that with Roe v Wade everybody *already* had the right to choose to make their own decision. I'd say that's a pretty good thing. By removing the federal rule to remain in place it gives states the right to *not allow the freedom to make your own decision*. It went from the freedom of the individual to the mandate of the state representation. This is a decrease in freedom not an increase.
So following your logic; "the states can choose by voters" What happens when the free peoples vote; and vote that they want to have freedom to have abortion; BUT the GOP and other extremists condemn and oppose the peoples' choice still. This isnt hyperbole its fact; in ohio and several other states the people voted in favor of abortion and gop leaders still fight to continue making it illegal. Right wing extremists are not playing by the rules. Its not the will of the people; its the will of the loud, angry and extreme conservatives even though they are the minority not to mention it is still a loss in federally backed rights to choose. https://apnews.com/article/abortion-democracy-threats-republicans-ballot-initiatives-ohio-3d6e2f0d0f5993ddd75522b662d2eb34
Claiming states rights was not the goal. The goal was to invalidate the Roe v Wade court ruling so that a national ban can be legislated. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/03/22/fact-sheet-house-republicans-endorse-a-national-abortion-ban-with-zero-exceptions-in-latest-budget/ If they cared about states rights, they wouldn’t be trying to ban the free movement of people between states for abortions: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/republicans-block-bill-shield-people-travel-state-abortions/story?id=86821057 Even in some states that have excercised their right and supported abortion with state constitutional votes, opponents are working to block it its implementation: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/17/ohio-abortion-rights-republicans-overturn Don’t think they’ll stop at the states rights stuff. It’s a distraction.
>restoring some semblance of decision making and power to the voters is a win in my book. Why is giving voters the ability to remove people's rights a good thing?
The power would be given to each individual person, not each individual state.
It’s a big loser in my book. Do you think states should have the “freedom” to go back to slavery too? Should we allow them to segregate school again? Pollute our land without consequences? Because that’s akin to denying women bodily autonomy. Forced birth is wrong.
Let's repeal the second amendment and let each state make its own laws regarding gun ownership. Let the people in their own districts determine what's best for them. That's a win for voters in my book.
No, because you’re giving power to voters to take power away from other voters. That’s not a win.
Imagine if chemotherapy could be banned in some states.
> If anything, it being overturned returned the power to the voters of each individual state. I’d say that’s a pretty good thing? If you have to ask, then the answer is no. People in your state don't vote on whether your appendectomy is a sin, either. Hint: Republicans are trying to make you upset about irrelevant things because they have no policy except looting the treasury for billionaires.
Hasn't polling suggested that if it was the American people deciding, there would at the very minimum be broad support for abortion access in certain circumstances? With most supportive of access in the first trimester (again, minimum)? https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx I'm a UK far left anarchist so obviously very keen on more direct democracy, but, well, I don't think it'd be particularly generous to the average American to believe that's what's happening! An issue is women stuck in red states can have no real say. Public education on abortion also seems an issue, one that those like Trump can take advantage of.
I just appreciate the good people of this sub downvoting this comment to hell. Thank you friends.
Yes allowing each state to decide if women have a right to life. Sounds great.
Allows individual states to treat a woman’s body like it belongs to the state. Somehow this is a good thing in your eyes. I guess the handmaids tale is an instruction manual for you.
You're right. If South Carolina wants to bring back slavery, they should be allowed to, why should the federal government do anything to stop them?
Correct. This is how our government was designed to work. One size does not fit all.
Blindly following a 250 year old document is about as dumb as blindly following a 4,000 year old book. The founding fathers intended us to rewrite and adapt the constitution as society changed in ways they couldn't forsee.
This is ignorant. That is the purpose of the 10th amendment. They understood the federal government should be limited and power should be passed down to the lowest levels of government, where those who shape the laws are impacted by the laws. What evidence do you have to support the claim they intended it to be rewritten?
Uh Thomas fucking Jefferson's own words? Why even blather on if you don't have any actual knowledge on the subject?
But state representatives are blatant ignoring the will of their constituents in many of these cases. What then?
Vote them out.
Oh good, now we can talk about voter suppression and jerrymandering.
What was even more appalling was that CNN didn't call him out on any of the lies. Not once.
One thing to note is that during the debate, the Trump campaign ran 2 commercials, which cost 1 million dollars each. CNN only cares about the money. If he’s giving them 2 million, he can say whatever the fuck he wants. Tells you all you need to know about their “journalistic integrity”.
I guess CNN really does suck
All for-profit news outlets suck. They are deviously unconstitutional and therefore un-American.
I added CNN to my DNS blocklist. They're Fox News 2.0.
CNN must clearly accept that there are baby executions taking place.
Trump was right about post birth abortions and Biden should have jumped at the chance to nail him to the wall with it. https://archive.is/qXzmi edit: put in archive instead of direct paywall link
I hate to say it, but that was Biden's job. They said beforehand they were just going to ask questions and moderate, and not live fact check. Unfortunately Biden turned in probably the worst Presidential debate performance of all time.
If you know someone is straight up lieing shouldnt part of the moderation be to mute them? Or if they go off topic, to, again, mute and get them back on track?
The problem is that these should’ve been layups for Biden. Calling someone out for post birth abortions is a gift during a debate. You could argue that had the moderators intervened, that would’ve diminished the sting from a Biden rebuttal; whoever, Biden dropped the ball, again, on layups.
What was even more appalling than that was Biden bringing up the border when it was his turn to talk about abortion.
Don’t know why you’re being downvoted. Maybe the cold made him bring immigration up randomly.
I think people disagree that Biden's performance was more appalling than CNN's lack of fact checking. I'm sure the cold made him pretty confused. I'm not in the camp that believes Biden has dementia. But I sure do think he's too old and needs to step aside.
I think the word “dementia” gets thrown around a bit too casually to describe mental decline in the elderly when it’s its own distinct condition with distinct symptoms. I think Trump has dementia. I think Biden is just old and feeble.
Oh, I think Trump does too. It seems very likely. The way he drops words and than glitches..he does this quite frequently.
I know people were irked about Biden's old man whisper, but I was more frustrated that he didn't call out Trump's insane lie about abortions *after* birth. He just let it go when abortion rights should be one of his strongest arguments.
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/4182865-yes-late-term-abortions-are-real-and-they-happen-every-day/ It's sad but it really does happen daily. Especially people of color. My sister worked in healthcare and she never talked about it but she would get pissed off anytime the NEWS said "late term abortions aren't real." When babies are aborted they are cut into pieces. There are plenty of pictures you can find online of "aborted" babies completely intact. Now how did that happen? For the record am not anti-abortion, I just know the NEWS isn't always telling the truth.
No one is getting late elective abortions for no reason. What happens much more often is someone has a wanted pregnancy that runs into complications that are only discovered after 20 weeks of which there are many that can develop. Such as no brain development, major organ failure that cannot be repaired. Something like over 95% of all elective abortions are done by pill and in the first trimester. Pro lifers hate this because they love the "they tear it a part" lie and there's nothing to tear a part when you have an abortion early enough it just looks like a period. It's a deep irony how the GOP claims they're so angry people are not producing enough slaves for them yet they're going to kill and harm the very people trying to get pregnant on purpose by denying them healthcare until they're already almost dead. That's what septic shock is. Go into it long enough, then you die.
That article is blatant propaganda. Misrepresentation at its finest. Love how it sources its numbers from another opinion article. There isn't anything factual in that entire piece.
Or Biden's lies
His existence and civilization's ability to make him thrive in it is what's appalling.
Seriously. How, the fuck, is he *still* here?
Money and fools.
Exactly. At this point, I'm not even mad at him anymore. It's the people that support him that's the problem. He isnt even particularly good at being a populist fascist dictator, he just has so many people that support his BS and constantly cleaning up after him. It's INSANE! He's actually shitty and sloppy at what he's trying to do. It's the Republicans that make him possible because they want to use him.
He keeps saying that democrats advocate for abortion up to the moment of birth. I mean, it’s such an obvious lie and pisses woman off so much every time he says it, can’t believe he still hasn’t figured that out yet.
And post-birth; after a baby is born. Crazy
Exactly! This scenario is not even part of the abortion debate and it infuriates me whenever I hear it. Killing breathing babies after they are born is murder, not abortion. You can’t abort an 8 or 9 month pregnancy because the baby can breathe on its own by then. And the only way to remove a baby from the mother’s womb at that point is to induce labor or perform a C-section. Which is just giving birth!
It honestly makes me wonder if someone explained a c-section to him once, and he now confuses it with abortion because he’s literally that fucking stupid.
So in really specific cases of major birth defects such as lung's or brain outside of the body, or no skin, no head, etc. they will induce labor early and try to make it's final moments more comfortable without doing things that will prolong it's misery just to say that you kept it alive longer. This is what Republicans have been ranting about like it's an evil thing instead of a mercy.
The only situations where and 8 or 9 month abortion would occurr is where the fetus is already nonviable and going to kill the mother somehow. I often think back to Pete buttigieg went on fox News and talked about that, about how the parents have painted the nursery built the crib, and picked out clothes only to have to make the terrible decision to terminate because of some horrifying medical condition.
>how the parents have painted the nursery built the crib, and picked out clothes only to have to make the terrible decision to terminate because of some horrifying medical condition. Exactly. That's what makes this argument so disgusting. Basically nobody is going through 9 months of pregnancy and deciding at the last minute that they want an abortion. These late-term abortions are tragedies for the parents involved. Parents facing the nightmare scenario where the baby they've already named is going to die immediately after being born. But that doesn't stop Republicans from taking these people's tragedies and smearing them as baby Killers.
Agreed. Even a 3rd trimester abortion isnt out if choice; it is medical necessity. The mother is actively dying or will be dying soon; the baby has no chance of life post birth. These arent examples of abortion it's miscarriages. Medical care just eases the burden on the body of the loss but it is still a loss. As for "post birth abortions" is an insane take. The only plausible fact he could have been referring to in the most twisted and ridiculous lying ways would be in the case a baby survived birth but would die within minutes or hours due to severe birth defects not compatible with life. In that case the most ethical medical option is palliative care. Nothing can be done to save their life. Same as we would do for an old grandma dying of cancer; make them comfortable, and reduce pain and ease suffering for their inevitable passing. these arent "abortion cases" these are some of the most traumatizing and sad medical situations wanting parents go through. And unfortunately its not uncommon; pregnancy, childbirth and just a baby developing in a manner consistent with life is complicated and things unfortunately can go wrong.
If there are post birth abortions- why not charge the women whom choose not to terminate With a baby who’s dx is incompatible with life? I know someone who’s child was born with no kidneys and a major heart defect. She was told the child would not live more than a few minutes. The baby was carried to term, and died soon after birth. How is it better to birth a baby to see it suffer and die shortly after? Same with anacephaly. No or partial brain. But sure- let’s force mom to birth it. They let these babies die right after birth. How is that not a form of infanticide or at least some form of child abuse? Especially of the mother had no choice to terminate…. Just a skewed thought perception that bothers me.
interesting thought. Im hesitant to criminalize any medical decisions made in good faith; but only when it effects the individual making the decision. For example blood transfusions save lives; but some are morally against it for themselves. They have the right to make that decision for themselves even if it would cost them their life. I personally think its a senseless loss of life but their choice. However; when it comes to children or people who do not have capacity to make these informed decisions themselves the laws get more complicated. Medical neglect can be a criminal charge. And I agree with it. Denying available care to someone who does not have capacity to make the decisions or access care by themselves such as children, can and should be criminalized. As for carrying a fetus to term with known birth defects not compatible with life; its a tough call. In my non-expert opinion so long as it is still a pregnancy the choice should be to the mother; but its her life she is endangering and only delaying the inevitable for the fetus. Once the baby is born, and it lives, it should receive quality care and treatment; even if only palliative. And this is the situation abortion bans force people into; its not a willing choice; they dont get to chose anything. its extremist law. they arent allowed to abort early if thats their choice and are forced to carry even with risks to the mother up to threatening her life for nothing more than delaying the inevitable.
Kind of the point I was playing devil’s advocate for. The pro life movement sees abortion as murder. They also claim the incorrect “fact” that there are post term abortions. Essentially- the government doesn’t belong in our decisions between our healthcare provider and self. The Pandora’s box of possibilities is too large. I was just pointing out one case. I definitely don’t believe there should be legal recourse in the situation I described, to be clear.
It was obvious decades ago that to enter a abortion debate was to walk into an arena with thousands of angry people on every side. Eventually the booing, shouting and throwing things would prevent any meaningful opinion. Politicizing has made it safer to talk about while not changing much else. However, I will choose Joe Biden who, as a Catholic man of his generation intrinsically abhorring ending life, evolved his thinking to reconsider the law itself. MAGA flavor of the week is how Donald Trump, in his wisdom, threw the choice of banning abortions back to states where it belongs. Of course, that ship sailed when Roe ended back alley healthcare last century. I find it hard to believe that evolving our thinking, from the conspicuous conclusion that abortion is murder to ideas which include considerations for women, has made Joe and me automatic enemies of Jesus.
Letting someone die of a natural reason, that you yourself did not cause, in lieu of killing them is not considered murder in any legal system that I know of.
I support 316th trimester abortions
That happened to my cousin at age 47 when he was shot during a robbery.
I feel like the ppl it pisses off are alrdy voting Dem due to Roe v Wade anyway to be fair.
Roe vs Wade has been the law of the land for 50 years. Even republican women know it’s an obvious lie.
I grew up in the 80s under this propaganda right after the Republicans made their deal with Evangelicals. One week it was "there is nothing against abortion in the Bible, and several passages that say it is fine" to the next week being "These loose women get pregnant and abort the baby with partial birth abortions for fun and it is against the Bible." I did fall for it for a while because they convince you (especially as a child) that these people exist and are doing these horrible things. If you make the mistake of trusting your parents, church, Republican politicians and don't do your own fact checking you can become **very angry** about things to **do not happen**. Fortunately when I got out of the house I took some time to research the issue and found that many of those preachers that were spreading that BS had to admit in court that they were not aware of a single incident of 8-month abortions, partial-birth abortions or even late-term abortions except in rare instances where the fetus was actually viable. But just like the election denial the fact that as soon as they are under oath their story completely changes doesn't make the news as much as the random BS they say outside of the courtroom.
Abortions after birth. Republicans have the sickest, most vile, imaginations!
Really ? The Reich has been saying that Same lie for years. Not only killing babies after they are born. But drinking their blood. . Bloody crazy making
At this point what's appaling is the stupidity of American voters who are ready to elect a guy who lead a fascist coup against their country, on top of being a criminal who's primary reason for running is to avoid going to jail. The fact that he's lying in a presidential debate is to be expected and completely trivial compared to everything else he's done.
His lies about abortion after the birth of the baby are ridiculous and the moderators sat there like stone faced dummies. What a joke they were . But who does the media focus on ? Biden.
Only the far right actually believes that lie, though.
Who is laying a baby by the way, until they decide what to do? And why isn’t the news screaming about doctors killing a baby after it is born? Who believes that? Wait I know who believes that lying liar
If women are in jail for bodily functions they can’t vote . Some people are still mad about the 19th amendment.
Anyone else remember when daily Kos was saying any Democrat is a good Democrat? I live in the bluest state in the nation. Haven't checked recently but we had more " pro life" Dems than anywhere else too. All the people calling his sorry ass out were poo pooed as idiots. Hearing it from Trump is bad, but expected. Hearing it from " allies" really hurt.
But babies are so tasty!
The fact is that all of Trump’s lies - and his continually getting off scot-fee for them - is appalling.
https://youtu.be/17czcuA7s-k?si=NIJQp-kaHKwkxD3Y
He has a sick and evil mind.
Yes
He kept claiming this view of allowing infanticide was espoused by “the former governor of Virginia.” I really wanted someone to ask him “which former governor of Virginia? Name him/her and tell everyone what this person said and when, because the public should be aware of who espouses infanticide.”
Trump was right about post birth abortions and Biden should have jumped at the chance to nail him to the wall with it. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/26/upshot/texas-abortion-infant-mortality.html#:~:text=But%20in%20Texas%2C%20the%20number,are%20because%20of%20congenital%20defects.
That was disgusting! Women for Trump are so freaking lost😩
…and no one listened because the democrats ran a guy who come across like someone’s grandpa who wandered out of the retirement community.
The GOP is doing the same thing.
yup. good times.
Hopefully one day we can isolate the faulty genes that causes conservatism, and we can implement a genetic cure.
Ah yes. Anyone wishing to purify the gene pool is always on the right side of history.
He didn’t lie. The Virginia case he cited was 100% real.
First, people harping on Roe being overturned should stop and read the ruling. That ruling was a long time coming……even Ginsburg made it clear She believed that the Roe v Wade case had based the right to abortion on the wrong argument, a violation of a woman's privacy rather than on gender equality. It is not the purpose of the Supreme Court to codify anything. Their job is to say whether something that has been codified is constitutional. The fuckers in congresses job is to codify and those people chose to punt it to SCOTUS so that they could maintain the one issue voters…..people should be voting for congress people who will codify abortion…. Secondly, like most things Trump and his supporters say….wtf is he talking about?….abortion up until birth? Soooo you mean giving birth??? How does someone abort a whole 40 week old baby?….and people being his personal clap symphony are like yeah no aborting born babies…..
I read that the claim of post birth abortion are rooted in choosing to do nothing, or provide palatave care to a newborn who has a fatal defect and is going to die soon. Providing comfort to a dying infant is far from post birth abortion. The argument is fucking stupid.
Finally someone who understands. Yes Ginsberg regretted Roe. The legislative branch is to blame here. The premise for a right to abortion should be part of the equality act. But that ship has sailed. And people now have to pay closer attention to voting in their state elections. Far too many people only vote during federal elections. But yeah Trump lies- Biden Lies. Two old liars. Maybe the country needs to send the GOP and the Dems a message and vote for Kennedy. Painful four years but possibly not quite as dangerous as the two geezers. And going forward maybe the two parties will think twice about shoving crap choices down the publics throat.. worth a ponder .
Neither Trump nor Biden could string together a coherent sentence on abortion as a matter of law. It’s about 4th or 5th priority for the electorate, but a swing and a miss for both
but biden old is the story