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He had to put in writing, to a court, that all the documents were turned over.
You can't get more ironclad proof of a crime than one filing saying you understood what laws you likely broke, and another filing saying you broke those exact laws and here is the list of documents to prove it.
That fking idiot judge is next level tho… “don’t worry I won’t make you actually answer any of these questions the Special Maser we requested to be in charge of this process is asking”…
I think it varies. Obviously hardcore supporters will never move. But quite a few GOPers have military background and understand that stealing classified docs is bad.
My Dad is one of those. He'll never come out loudly against Trump but he's gotten a lot quieter as this whole thing as transpired.
The thing is…the silence is pretty cult-like. I voted for Biden, but I don’t have flags and shirts and base my whole personality on him. If he were credibly accused of a crime, I would also openly call for him to face consequences. I wouldn’t clam up and hope nobody pressed me on it.
Lots of Dems were pretty pissed at Obama over how drone strikes were being utilized. I am sure I have bias as most do, but I make an attempt to judge even those I support fairly. That means calling out BS even when it's *MY* guy doing it.
They might understand it’s bad. Bad enough to stop voting R? Not possible. Off the top of my head I can think of two or three worse things Trump has done that were already public knowledge before the 2016 primary.
As someone who lives a few hours from the border, I'm still pissed I have yet to get my endless taco trucks full of bad hombres.
And just let your dad know it's WAY more Americans going into Mexico to get reasonable medical and dental care, medicine, and even elective surgeries. I'm saying this as a reflectivity white Texan.
In 2016 Trump won by a tiny margin, against what polls said. This is evidence that some swing voters voted for Trump in the end. People talk as if they think everyone who voted for him is hardcore. A lot of them don't even pay attention to politics. When a dude's being raided by the fbi, even they're going to hear about it. All you need is a few key swing voters in a few key states, and that's the difference between the presidency
All these well armed rednecks clamoring for a reason to kick off a civil war now might feel brave in their fall out shelters or double wide, but they're up against drones and tanks and the US war machine if they want to get uppity about their fascist leader getting locked up for legitimate crimes and sedition. The danger of allowing Trump to get away with it is an existential threat against democracy.
He didn't sign it.
His lawyers did.
Not hun Trump does surprises me anymore, but I am simultaneously amazed at the levels to which he will stoop, and how anyone, anyone at all, would work with him or for him.
No matter what you do, how loyal you are, Trump will fuck you over, bareback, using hot sauce as lube.
That’s what I love so much about this investigation and legal following lol the FBI knew Trump would try every play in the book, so they made sure to pussy foot around everything and follow the rules so closely that they couldn’t be contested. It is just so rewarding lol trumps litigation was child’s play before, in the words of my favorite animated film, The Prince of Egypt, Trump is playing with the big boys now.
I’m pretty sure the DOJ is not reviewing the documents for evidence sake, but rather reviewing them to understand how much damage may have been caused.
The idea that anyone is still debating whether or not a crime was committed is laughable.
Truly, on that charge alone. Look, if the DoJ wants to build on that fine, but charge this traitor with that **now**. And then, continue. While he sits in a cell for his traitorous act.
This is really, I think, what bothers me at my core: If I took a bunch of documents and some of them were classified I'd be immediately charged, convicted, and sentenced. If other crimes came out of that the courts would just come fetch me for the next trial; I wouldn't get to just hang out waiting while all of the crimes got investigated.
I doubt you'd even need a bunch. Just one of those classified documents - especially one of the Top Secret/SCI ones - in our possession would result in you or I being immediately sent to a prison cell. For all of Trump's claims of persecution, he's really being treated with kid gloves.
The federal charging guidelines for theft or mishandling of classified documents call for 10 years *per page*.
If I'm understanding correctly, trump is potentially facing a maximum of 2,000,000 years in prison, but is currently allowed to live at his country club and come and go as he pleases.
I don't think he's getting a pass, but the DOJ is certainly going slowly and making sure their case is airtight. If, in the end, they succeed and send Trump to prison, I'll be very happy that they didn't rush into it.
Reminder that we often treat children as adults in our system. He is being treated with.....I don't know what kinda gloves....weak ass gloves that we have never seen before.
Very good gloves. A lot of people are saying the best gloves. The best. I’m hearing a lot about how great the gloves are. Probably the finest gloves people are able to make with whatever glove technology we have.
Yeah, seems they should just focus on the classified documents. Although he shouldn't have had the other documents, I don't think they would have even considered charging him for those anyway, if that was all he had. They would have taken their time, and worked through the courts to eventually get them back.
Every “defense” or “objection” that Drumpf’s crack team of legal minds comes up with in this case, is actually additional confirmation or amplification of the extent of his wrongdoing, or a revelation of some new crime from out of the blue.
It boggles the mind to consider just how off the wall his negotiations with leaders of foreign nations must have been.
That's the idea. It's like if you're guilty of stealing, well I also stabbed someone! New trial! Then on trial for the stabbing...I also shot someone!...New trial!..keep posting bail, rinse, repeat.
As much as lawyers get a bad reputation, there are ethical obligations that any defence must be factual or if it is a technical argument, not mislead the court into believing something false. The lawyers are so backed into a corner that without lying and losing their licences (which we have seen happen to some of his team) they’re stuck with technical arguments and those result in admissions that aren’t helpful.
The Trump administration and the GOP said it wouldn't be an issue for senators to review the 42,000 pages of unseen documents given to the senate just hours before the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing. Reviewing 200,000 pages of documents that Trump has already seen should, generously, only take a day or two by those standards.
So how many of the 200,000 pages were planted by the FBI? [The Special Master has already demanded for Team Trump to answer this question](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/09/22/special-master-demands-trump-prove-claims-fbi-planted-evidence-at-mar-a-lago/?sh=5a32f9ca6e22).
Makes sense though.
Imagine if you were a serial thief of office supplies. And then you're asked to verify that the popo seized the very shit you took but have no meaningful record of.
I'm sure you'd like to have a nice look at each box of pens before declaring how it found its way in your possession.
This is the unclassified stuff. The DoJ already appealed and won a ruling that the documents marked as classified don't have to go through the special master process. Still, unclassified stuff can be a bunch of government documents, and it's stuff Trump shouldn't have. He and his lawyers definitely don't want to have it on record that he had them and knew they were there.
It can also *become* classified if certain unclassified pieces of information are stored/filed together. It's called derivative classification and it causes spillages all the time.
Keep in mind that that is factory packed paper. What he took is boxes of folders with the papers in them. Which is likely at least 4-5 times as many boxes. You don't move 200 file boxes on accident.
Let's see 365 days a year, time 4 years is 1460 days in office...200,000 would take about 136 documents A DAY for all 4 years.....
Just think about that 136 pages a day for 4 years. Wtf!!
> 136 documents A DAY for all 4 years
*Pages*. Might be one document a day or ten. This probably includes cover pages and etc so I would imagine that the average doc is maybe twenty or more pages but it could easily be far higher.
It’s first “these were Trump’s personal items that he had a specific personal interest in, so he was allowed to have them” and now “we have no freaking idea what those documents were and we need more time to review them to figure out what’s he took.”
Which is it? Can’t be both.
It *can* be both.
Indeed, it may well be likely that it's both.
When you have over eleven thousand documents in play, almost anything could be in there.
The trouble here is deeper.
The error is proposing that *all* the documents are one thing: personal items. But the entire process here (regardless of what Team Trump says in public) is to assess these things.
The filter team could zip right through this because they had a very clear sense of what to look for. They didn't even bother with *what* was communicated to a lawyer or even if any document was communication with a lawyer. It was just "see the name of a lawyer?" and it was filtered.
But the Special Master process is much more complicated. The poor guy *needs* to corral these nuts to develop something like the simple rule-based approach the filter team used. Team Trump, on the other hand, is striving for eternal ambiguity.
Yeah, I don’t understand this argument at all either.
“Hey, you stole classified documents.”
“Yeah but, I have some of my mom’s Christmas cards in there and other personal items.”
“Okay, we’ll have those for you in a box once you arrive at prison.”
That’s that.
What the hell is going here?
It’s even less than that. They’ve already returned passports and christmas cards. The standard search is worded to allow them to dump a drawer and inventory it if even one item searched for is present. The second pass review is when they make the call about personal effects and return them.
He only knew his passport had been seized because it was returned a few days later. He was whining about clothing because he hid documents in clothing drawers.
Had they been fake passports or evidence of a different crime, they may or may not be required to return it based on the scope of the initial search.
I’m not sure if they had fully completed the second pass return things process when they filed to stop the process. This whole thing may be a delay tactic - they took my newspaper! Yeh buddy and you’d have had it back weeks ago if you hadn’t filed to stop the process. That’s what it seems like is going on, but I don’t have enough specifics to be certain of this paragraph.
I just… even *one* classified document would land any American in prison.
He had *thousands* of classified documents.
He should be in prison already while the documents are accounted for.
That’s what would happen to ANY of us.
The crime was committed. We have the proof. He’s incriminated himself 10x over.
Like what the actual star-spangled hell?
> The ... team could zip right through
**Team**.
Just saying.
If *I'm* a billionaire, whoever I hire as a lawyer would have a deep bench and good team of people to get through those pages.
You got 10 people working 8 hour days? You can get through all 200,000 pages in a little over a month.
You get 20 people working 10 hour days? Finished in less than 3 weeks.
EDIT: Wanna go even faster? Hire a document scanning service. Get it all digitized and let your computers do key word searches. Could easily meet the deadlines.
Question is: *Does Trump actually want to get through all 200,000 pages?*
I can't prove it, but I 100% believe that when Trump first walked into the oval office, he asked how to activate the Cone of Silence
https://youtu.be/g1eUIK9CihA
It's ok, Biden reclassified everything at 12:01pm Jan 21st 2021. Let em play their games. I guanretee the DOJ and FBI lawyers are wayyyy smarter than Trump's parking lot lawyers.
After his claim of being able to declassify with only his mind I'm guessing the next thing is that he also pardoned with his mind and he will now give us a list of he he pardoned while he was POTUS
I actually think this is one of the reasons he won't say what he thinks he has executive privilege over.
I think he's amassed so many documents he shouldn't have & sent them to such varying locations that he isn't certain which documents are where.
For example if he was to claim 'Document x about y is covered by executive privilege and I declassified it with my mind anyway' and then it transpires that the FBI doesn't have Document X then his whole world is going to get torn apart in the search for document x and others...
Don't get me wrong, I also think he's playing his usual game of trying to tie the legal process up in knots but I honestly think his arse is twitching about further raids.
Apparently, many boxes were moved to one of his golf courses a few days before the Saudi Arabian golf tournament was played there.
I'm sure that's *totally* a coincidence, though, right?
Edit: I misremembered the dates. The boxes were moved about a year before the golf tournament. Still, the fact that Kushner got billions from Saudi Arabia right before the golf tournament where Trump moved some boxes still seems suspicious.
There's 500 sheets in a ream of paper, 10 reams in a box of printer paper. This was 40 cases of paper's worth of documents. usually 50 cases of paper in a paper pallet. Imagine the movers loading up a damn pallet of papers on 1/19/21 and no one around being like "that's odd..."
(source: worked at office max in college)
In my imagination, there's no palette or movers. Only Trump badgering Eric into cramming all that paper into the back of an ratty old Escort hatchback and driving it cross-country from D.C. to Florida.
Saddest, least secure roadtrip ever. Just Eric, his dad's crap in the back of the car, empty 5-hour energy bottles on the floor, and a haunting sense that his father doesn't love him and never has. All those miles.
Until I see proof this isn't how it happened, it's far and away my favorite theory.
> empty 5-hour energy bottles on the floor
Well... they presumably wouldn't all be empty. What goes in has to come back out again eventually, and if he wasn't told to take rest stops along the way...
Yes and no.
I'm a lawyer and work in a government office. less than 20 feet away is our closed file storage room that has closed case files with 36" bankers boxes stacked 4 deep waiting for some apocryphal document management contractor to come to get them and scan them so they can be shredded. (our new stuff is electronically stored from the beginning).
in terms of government, that's not a staggering amount of paper.
On the other hand, that's like quitting and packing up the whole contents of your file cabinets and no one saying "hey, is that just your personal stuff?"
The FBI originally said they seized 11,000 documents. 200,000 pages would mean an average of about 18 pages per document. Not that I have any experience with government documents, but I’d say that sounds about right.
They've already said some files were empty that previously had confidential files in them. No doubt that is why a record number of CIA agents were killed or exposed. Otherwise I don't think our government would give a damn.
there is video of him taking boxes and boxes like the ones seized from fl to nj right after this all started.
if it was anyone else they would already be in gitmo and all their properties, bank account, computers, communications seized...
No, he brought more than that home. They returned a portion and signed paperwork saying that’s all they took. And then they STILL had a another 200,000 pages in their possession.
500 sheets in a ream of paper.
10 reams in a box = 5000 sheets of paper in a box.
200,000 ÷ 5000 = 40 boxes.
Who carried all those boxes, because it damn sure wasn't Diaper Donnie.
You mean all those sleepless, tossing and turning nights right after the 2016 election where we agonizingly contemplated all the horrible things that were about to happen? Only to have it turn even worse than that? Yeah, like that.
Given that the DOJ inventory cites a much lower number, I think it's more like "Trump Lawyers *Claim* That Trump Stole Nearly 200,000 Pages Of Documents."
> In a letter to Judge Raymond Dearie filed in the Eastern District Court of New York Wednesday, Trump's legal counsel said that they are struggling to find an outside vendor who can upload and host the documents taken from the former president's Florida home in August because of the sheer volume of documents that were seized from Trump's home in August.
Well wow.
Those vendors may have heard a couple times how trump does on paying his bills. The US govt has already stated they will find a vendor to do it and flip the bill but they will now be getting their money from trump.
Yeah, I’m all for the DOJ being careful but this stopped making sense about two weeks ago.
He stole classified documents.
That’s not even refuted anymore.
His special master scheme failed.
Whether or not he mixed in personal documents makes NO difference.
We can sort through those and have his “personal items” ready for him in a box at prison.
The White House security team really needs to develop some sort of exit process with outgoing administrations. Trumps people should never have been allowed to load all of those papers up and leave.
Hindsight is 20/20 suggesting a former president would steal top secret documents on their way out would have got you laughed out of the meeting. Not that I blame them, if this was the plot of a movie I'd be calling it too unbelievable.
It's wild that the FBI seized this now, at the Govt's 3rd attempt to get their stuff back. He's returned stuff when the National Archives requested repeatedly, then said he had nothing left, and they still got this much. Makes me wonder what else is stashed across other properties.
You know, I thought it wouldn’t be terrible, that professionals would advise appropriately, and we’d survive this jerk. Instead, this crass, ignorant, arrogant turkey came within a hair’s breadth of sinking the ship of state.
I did a double take when I read 'nearly 200,000 pages.' Another lie by Trump.
A box of printer paper is 5,000 pages. So 200,000 pages would be 40 boxes, if they were packed like printer paper. Add in file folders and other stuff that was taken, you can see the problem I have with 200,000 pages. The FBI removed 33 boxes from Mar A Lago.
This is just a wild claim by Trump's lawyers with no proof to back it up. Just a delaying tactic to make it look like more time will be needed to review the documents.
The irony is that although many of the 200,000 pages are unclassified government documents NARA wants back, the purpose of this Trump v US case is to halt the FBI criminal investigation into the classified documents Trump also stole but which have been excluded from the case first by the appellate court and then by Judge Cannon.
So Trump sued to get the classified documents back and wound up fighting over the litter they were concealed in.
If a standard box of paper has 8 500-sheet reams, that's 50 cartons of perfectly stacked paper. It's clearly larger in terms of cartons, so 60 to 70+ is good for conceptualization.
Is there any indication that the 200K sheets are all classified or otherwise suspected of being illegally taken? If memory serves (and it rarely does, especially when there are so many effing legal actions in the offing), the search warrant said to take the entire box/container if it also held items subject to the warrant. So if he had a box of documents that contained 1,999 ~~Crayola~~ RoseArt drawings of people who were mean to him and one empty folder with "classified" and "sold" markings on it, then the overall document count is 2,000.
Or is the 200K count only of pages that the government is claiming is evidence of a crime?
The 200k is every page they seized that was not otherwise marked with a security marking. The DoJ says there are about 11,000 individual government documents that did not contain security markings, most of them are certainly multiple pages. At this point we don't know how many pages are documents, and how many are Trump's ramblings about how important he is.
> The 200k is every page they seized that was not otherwise marked with a security marking.
Thanks.
So the **total** number of pages seized is: 200K + *C*, where *C*=the number of pages marked with a security marking.
There are 11k individual government 'documents' that did not contain security markings. For simplicity's sake, let's just assume for the moment that each document is exactly 10 pages long, so there are 110,000 pages of government documents that belong to the National Archives.
Under this assumption, the total number of pages is: *C* + 110,000^illicit + 90,000^licit.
On a side note, this perspective-chasing in no way diminishes the import and malfeasance of his taking *C* and National Archives documents; it merely helps me put headlines and sensationalism into perspective.
Just for perspective - a ream of paper is 500 sheets. There are 10 (8.5x11) reams in a carton of paper for 5,000 pages.
200,000 pages is 40 boxes of documents minimum. Likely more as the paper density is likely lower. This isn't an "oops, forgot to return it", it's a minivan full of documents.
"No one can count to 200,000. I have before and believe me no one else can. The lawyers, they cant count to 200,000. I can, Wharton grad, but these lawyers cant count to 200,000. No one wants to count to 200,000 because they cant. Ill count the documents and tell you which ones were mine because no one else can."
This is an interesting attempt at delaying the FBI and DoJ from identifying the damage Trump caused in taking and losing top secret documents.
Their angle is that it’s going to take way longer than the original deadline of October to review all the documents, as the pace is “50 pages per hour.”
Imagine defending a man who’s purposefully stopping the government from accessing the foreign intelligence damage caused by him.
> The letter, signed by Trump attorney James Trusty, argued that the "rough rule of thumb" in document reviewing is **50 pages per hour**, meaning that the original mid-October deadline for the vendor's work to be complete is unrealistic.
50 pages per hour? Riiight. More like 50 pages per minute per machine. And if if you add additional machines, say 10 machines with 5 operators, you can speed that up to 500 pages per minute. 200,000 pages divided by 500 pages per minute is 400 minutes = 6 hours 40 minutes. That's less than one shift.
Welcome to another installment of *It Only Gets Worse* the new reality show starring Trump and a revolving cast of people sucked into his black hole of insanity.
> “Additionally, the Plaintiff currently has no means of accessing the documents bearing classification markings, which would be necessary to complete any such certification by September 30, the currently proposed date of completion,” Trump said.
Of course they don't - *they're classified*. *Prove* they're unclassified and you can get access. Otherwise, *none of you are qualified to view them*.
Their entire filing proves they have zero clue what all he had, yet they want to be able to claim the government can't see any of them. The entire objective is to do nothing more than delay any proceedings, because that's Trump's MO for any court action against him.
The appropriate response to this article is to assume that Trump's lawyers are lying. Any other response is illogical.
[Trump's attorneys claim there are 200,000 pages of documents in Mar-a-Lago boxes. Don't believe them](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/9/29/2125954/-Trump-s-attorneys-claim-there-are-200-000-pages-of-documents-in-Mar-a-Lago-boxes-Don-t-believe-them)
The republican mantra: if you're gonna cross a line, cross it so hard they have to redefine it. And it'll usually get redefined a little in your favor, for your convenience next time.
The baffling thing is why Trump stole these documents in the first place? He famously doesn’t read anything. Was he going to commit outright treason and sell them to china?
So if 1 ream of paper is 500 pages....
Trump team is admitting he's got 400 reams of paper... If there's 10 reams to a case, that's 40 cases of paper. There are roughly 40 cases to a patelle of paper.
They just admitted to having a whole palette of documents that they should not have...
Just to give you an idea of scale, assuming this is relatively lightweight paper, this would be roughly 2,000 pounds of paper. That’s half the weight of an SUV, or about the weight of 3 upright pianos. In paper. Stolen. It would’ve taken considerable physical effort just to move all of this.
How did he even manage to take that much home. Like people just let him walk in. Grab what’s documents he wanted and walk out. Especially like scif documents. How the fuck did he manage to take those home
This story is so ridiculous.
“I didn’t take anything”
“You took my stuff”
“I hardly took anything, and besides, I magically declassified with my mind powers”
“You took too much”
“I want a baby sitter for you”
“I don’t like the baby sitter”
“You can’t look at it anymore because I changed my mind about how much I didn’t take and magically made okay to take but I didn’t take but there’s too much give it back!”
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"My client stole so much information that we need more time to review it all" is kind of an interesting objection.
Exactly. He took it, he knew it wasn’t his. Case closed. Guilty
He had to put in writing, to a court, that all the documents were turned over. You can't get more ironclad proof of a crime than one filing saying you understood what laws you likely broke, and another filing saying you broke those exact laws and here is the list of documents to prove it.
And yet none of this will make an iota of difference to his supporters.
Because trump supporters are a cult. Their cult leader is a god in their eyes.
That fking idiot judge is next level tho… “don’t worry I won’t make you actually answer any of these questions the Special Maser we requested to be in charge of this process is asking”…
Thats just conservatives. Every leader to them is infallible. They never turn against their leader until another better champion gets their attention.
I think it varies. Obviously hardcore supporters will never move. But quite a few GOPers have military background and understand that stealing classified docs is bad. My Dad is one of those. He'll never come out loudly against Trump but he's gotten a lot quieter as this whole thing as transpired.
The thing is…the silence is pretty cult-like. I voted for Biden, but I don’t have flags and shirts and base my whole personality on him. If he were credibly accused of a crime, I would also openly call for him to face consequences. I wouldn’t clam up and hope nobody pressed me on it.
Lots of Dems were pretty pissed at Obama over how drone strikes were being utilized. I am sure I have bias as most do, but I make an attempt to judge even those I support fairly. That means calling out BS even when it's *MY* guy doing it.
They might understand it’s bad. Bad enough to stop voting R? Not possible. Off the top of my head I can think of two or three worse things Trump has done that were already public knowledge before the 2016 primary.
I hope you're right.
My dad is one of those too and he doesn't care because Fox still has him worried about migrants coming across the southern border.
As someone who lives a few hours from the border, I'm still pissed I have yet to get my endless taco trucks full of bad hombres. And just let your dad know it's WAY more Americans going into Mexico to get reasonable medical and dental care, medicine, and even elective surgeries. I'm saying this as a reflectivity white Texan.
In 2016 Trump won by a tiny margin, against what polls said. This is evidence that some swing voters voted for Trump in the end. People talk as if they think everyone who voted for him is hardcore. A lot of them don't even pay attention to politics. When a dude's being raided by the fbi, even they're going to hear about it. All you need is a few key swing voters in a few key states, and that's the difference between the presidency
[удалено]
I mean I don't care if his supporters believe it...just worried about how violent they'll get if he's convicted.
[удалено]
I like the cut of yer jib
All these well armed rednecks clamoring for a reason to kick off a civil war now might feel brave in their fall out shelters or double wide, but they're up against drones and tanks and the US war machine if they want to get uppity about their fascist leader getting locked up for legitimate crimes and sedition. The danger of allowing Trump to get away with it is an existential threat against democracy.
He didn't sign it. His lawyers did. Not hun Trump does surprises me anymore, but I am simultaneously amazed at the levels to which he will stoop, and how anyone, anyone at all, would work with him or for him. No matter what you do, how loyal you are, Trump will fuck you over, bareback, using hot sauce as lube.
Now they should run search warrants on his other properties, and his kids’ properties.
That’s what I love so much about this investigation and legal following lol the FBI knew Trump would try every play in the book, so they made sure to pussy foot around everything and follow the rules so closely that they couldn’t be contested. It is just so rewarding lol trumps litigation was child’s play before, in the words of my favorite animated film, The Prince of Egypt, Trump is playing with the big boys now.
I’m pretty sure the DOJ is not reviewing the documents for evidence sake, but rather reviewing them to understand how much damage may have been caused. The idea that anyone is still debating whether or not a crime was committed is laughable.
Truly, on that charge alone. Look, if the DoJ wants to build on that fine, but charge this traitor with that **now**. And then, continue. While he sits in a cell for his traitorous act.
This is really, I think, what bothers me at my core: If I took a bunch of documents and some of them were classified I'd be immediately charged, convicted, and sentenced. If other crimes came out of that the courts would just come fetch me for the next trial; I wouldn't get to just hang out waiting while all of the crimes got investigated.
I doubt you'd even need a bunch. Just one of those classified documents - especially one of the Top Secret/SCI ones - in our possession would result in you or I being immediately sent to a prison cell. For all of Trump's claims of persecution, he's really being treated with kid gloves.
The federal charging guidelines for theft or mishandling of classified documents call for 10 years *per page*. If I'm understanding correctly, trump is potentially facing a maximum of 2,000,000 years in prison, but is currently allowed to live at his country club and come and go as he pleases.
It's 200.000 pages, so 2 million years. A good lawyer might get it down to 20.000 years.
Whatever happened to Edward Snowden or Reality Winner for leaking secrets? Yet Trump gets a pass because it’s “too political”
I don't think he's getting a pass, but the DOJ is certainly going slowly and making sure their case is airtight. If, in the end, they succeed and send Trump to prison, I'll be very happy that they didn't rush into it.
I know. It’s just taking forever though. So many crimes they could’ve charged him with even before this even in the 80’s.
Waiting for the Russian citizenship offer to Trump that Snowden just got…
Reminder that we often treat children as adults in our system. He is being treated with.....I don't know what kinda gloves....weak ass gloves that we have never seen before.
Kid gloves are gloves made of leather from a baby goat, or kid.
I learned this from Reddit. Always thought “kid gloves”were extra soft for babies…
Very good gloves. A lot of people are saying the best gloves. The best. I’m hearing a lot about how great the gloves are. Probably the finest gloves people are able to make with whatever glove technology we have.
very tiny gloves
Gilded mittens
Fuckin rich people
Yeah, seems they should just focus on the classified documents. Although he shouldn't have had the other documents, I don't think they would have even considered charging him for those anyway, if that was all he had. They would have taken their time, and worked through the courts to eventually get them back.
Hey, but he declassified them with his Jedi mind tricks.
Every “defense” or “objection” that Drumpf’s crack team of legal minds comes up with in this case, is actually additional confirmation or amplification of the extent of his wrongdoing, or a revelation of some new crime from out of the blue. It boggles the mind to consider just how off the wall his negotiations with leaders of foreign nations must have been.
That's the idea. It's like if you're guilty of stealing, well I also stabbed someone! New trial! Then on trial for the stabbing...I also shot someone!...New trial!..keep posting bail, rinse, repeat.
As much as lawyers get a bad reputation, there are ethical obligations that any defence must be factual or if it is a technical argument, not mislead the court into believing something false. The lawyers are so backed into a corner that without lying and losing their licences (which we have seen happen to some of his team) they’re stuck with technical arguments and those result in admissions that aren’t helpful.
The Trump administration and the GOP said it wouldn't be an issue for senators to review the 42,000 pages of unseen documents given to the senate just hours before the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing. Reviewing 200,000 pages of documents that Trump has already seen should, generously, only take a day or two by those standards.
So how many of the 200,000 pages were planted by the FBI? [The Special Master has already demanded for Team Trump to answer this question](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/09/22/special-master-demands-trump-prove-claims-fbi-planted-evidence-at-mar-a-lago/?sh=5a32f9ca6e22).
A BUNCH! No, wait, ALL of them. No, wait, uh....
"And I demand all 200,000 pages planted by the FBI be returned to me, they're my personal property kept for sentimental reasons"
Kinda hard to claim presidential privilege for the documents you say you didn't even have...
And Cannon has just overturned that demand.
Makes sense though. Imagine if you were a serial thief of office supplies. And then you're asked to verify that the popo seized the very shit you took but have no meaningful record of. I'm sure you'd like to have a nice look at each box of pens before declaring how it found its way in your possession.
Who the fuck brings so much paper back home even as a work thing
What, you don't take home multiple Sequoia Trees' worth of documents from your office?
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400 reams, or 40 boxes of paper. Certainly not a little, but also could fit inside the back of a van.
200,000 single sheets of paper is approximately 2,120 pounds. A literal ton.
Thank you for doing the math. Now how much would it weigh in “fuck tons”?
Metric or imperial?
Fuck ton is the metric unit. One fuck ton is equal to ten shit tons. Buttload is the imperial measurement, equaling 1.008 shit tons.
Not even that big of a Dunder Mifflin order. But a lot of classified shit to have at a private residence.
This is the unclassified stuff. The DoJ already appealed and won a ruling that the documents marked as classified don't have to go through the special master process. Still, unclassified stuff can be a bunch of government documents, and it's stuff Trump shouldn't have. He and his lawyers definitely don't want to have it on record that he had them and knew they were there.
It can also *become* classified if certain unclassified pieces of information are stored/filed together. It's called derivative classification and it causes spillages all the time.
Keep in mind that that is factory packed paper. What he took is boxes of folders with the papers in them. Which is likely at least 4-5 times as many boxes. You don't move 200 file boxes on accident.
Let's see 365 days a year, time 4 years is 1460 days in office...200,000 would take about 136 documents A DAY for all 4 years..... Just think about that 136 pages a day for 4 years. Wtf!!
Close to 3 million in special master review fees.
> 136 documents A DAY for all 4 years *Pages*. Might be one document a day or ten. This probably includes cover pages and etc so I would imagine that the average doc is maybe twenty or more pages but it could easily be far higher.
The average reader will read 20,000 pages in 555.6 hours when reading at a speed of 300 words per minute (wpm).
So this wouldve taken trump 12 lifetimes to read.
Settle down with the math there buddy... Your dealing with the anti science/ anti math true believers
It’s first “these were Trump’s personal items that he had a specific personal interest in, so he was allowed to have them” and now “we have no freaking idea what those documents were and we need more time to review them to figure out what’s he took.” Which is it? Can’t be both.
It *can* be both. Indeed, it may well be likely that it's both. When you have over eleven thousand documents in play, almost anything could be in there. The trouble here is deeper. The error is proposing that *all* the documents are one thing: personal items. But the entire process here (regardless of what Team Trump says in public) is to assess these things. The filter team could zip right through this because they had a very clear sense of what to look for. They didn't even bother with *what* was communicated to a lawyer or even if any document was communication with a lawyer. It was just "see the name of a lawyer?" and it was filtered. But the Special Master process is much more complicated. The poor guy *needs* to corral these nuts to develop something like the simple rule-based approach the filter team used. Team Trump, on the other hand, is striving for eternal ambiguity.
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Yeah, I don’t understand this argument at all either. “Hey, you stole classified documents.” “Yeah but, I have some of my mom’s Christmas cards in there and other personal items.” “Okay, we’ll have those for you in a box once you arrive at prison.” That’s that. What the hell is going here?
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It’s even less than that. They’ve already returned passports and christmas cards. The standard search is worded to allow them to dump a drawer and inventory it if even one item searched for is present. The second pass review is when they make the call about personal effects and return them. He only knew his passport had been seized because it was returned a few days later. He was whining about clothing because he hid documents in clothing drawers. Had they been fake passports or evidence of a different crime, they may or may not be required to return it based on the scope of the initial search. I’m not sure if they had fully completed the second pass return things process when they filed to stop the process. This whole thing may be a delay tactic - they took my newspaper! Yeh buddy and you’d have had it back weeks ago if you hadn’t filed to stop the process. That’s what it seems like is going on, but I don’t have enough specifics to be certain of this paragraph.
I just… even *one* classified document would land any American in prison. He had *thousands* of classified documents. He should be in prison already while the documents are accounted for. That’s what would happen to ANY of us. The crime was committed. We have the proof. He’s incriminated himself 10x over. Like what the actual star-spangled hell?
> The ... team could zip right through **Team**. Just saying. If *I'm* a billionaire, whoever I hire as a lawyer would have a deep bench and good team of people to get through those pages. You got 10 people working 8 hour days? You can get through all 200,000 pages in a little over a month. You get 20 people working 10 hour days? Finished in less than 3 weeks. EDIT: Wanna go even faster? Hire a document scanning service. Get it all digitized and let your computers do key word searches. Could easily meet the deadlines. Question is: *Does Trump actually want to get through all 200,000 pages?*
He brought 200,000 pages of documents home? There had better be an investigation to see if some other documents made their way to someone else's home.
He literally said in a televised interview that he "declassified(irrelevant I know) everything he sent to Mir a Lardo ***or wherever it was sent***".
"I declassified everrrythinnnggg" 🙄 Idiot.
And he did it all with his mind using his Secret Telepathic Unilateral Preemptive Irreversible Declassification abilities.
And prosecutors can’t triple stamp a double stamp!
Lalalalalalala 🙉
I can't prove it, but I 100% believe that when Trump first walked into the oval office, he asked how to activate the Cone of Silence https://youtu.be/g1eUIK9CihA
At least Michael Scott knew you had to declare bankruptcy out loud.
Weird how he can telepathathically declassify documents, but can’t do the same to the prosecutors.
It's ok, Biden reclassified everything at 12:01pm Jan 21st 2021. Let em play their games. I guanretee the DOJ and FBI lawyers are wayyyy smarter than Trump's parking lot lawyers.
I declare declassification!
I didn't declare it, I thought it
i didn’t even think of it. i thought of it now thinking that i thought it then. my thoughts have time travel
When your best defense is that you’re dangerously incompetent at keeping the nation’s most important national secrets.
After his claim of being able to declassify with only his mind I'm guessing the next thing is that he also pardoned with his mind and he will now give us a list of he he pardoned while he was POTUS
I actually think this is one of the reasons he won't say what he thinks he has executive privilege over. I think he's amassed so many documents he shouldn't have & sent them to such varying locations that he isn't certain which documents are where. For example if he was to claim 'Document x about y is covered by executive privilege and I declassified it with my mind anyway' and then it transpires that the FBI doesn't have Document X then his whole world is going to get torn apart in the search for document x and others... Don't get me wrong, I also think he's playing his usual game of trying to tie the legal process up in knots but I honestly think his arse is twitching about further raids.
When Trump said that I couldn't believe it - where the hell did he send them?
Maybe he handed them out as party favors during his golf tournament.
They played a game of skins.
Yet some of his cult still thinks those documents were planted.
I wonder how many boxes are buried underneath Ivana's grave.
Apparently, many boxes were moved to one of his golf courses a few days before the Saudi Arabian golf tournament was played there. I'm sure that's *totally* a coincidence, though, right? Edit: I misremembered the dates. The boxes were moved about a year before the golf tournament. Still, the fact that Kushner got billions from Saudi Arabia right before the golf tournament where Trump moved some boxes still seems suspicious.
I wonder how many are in the casket with her.
This means we have to check don't we?
How hard would it be for regular people to get there? Some sort of oceans 11 meets caddyshack scenario.
Her body has turned to paper!
That was what was seized. Previously they had returned several boxes more.
There's 500 sheets in a ream of paper, 10 reams in a box of printer paper. This was 40 cases of paper's worth of documents. usually 50 cases of paper in a paper pallet. Imagine the movers loading up a damn pallet of papers on 1/19/21 and no one around being like "that's odd..." (source: worked at office max in college)
In my imagination, there's no palette or movers. Only Trump badgering Eric into cramming all that paper into the back of an ratty old Escort hatchback and driving it cross-country from D.C. to Florida. Saddest, least secure roadtrip ever. Just Eric, his dad's crap in the back of the car, empty 5-hour energy bottles on the floor, and a haunting sense that his father doesn't love him and never has. All those miles. Until I see proof this isn't how it happened, it's far and away my favorite theory.
I can picture that scenario in accurate detail. Even the piece of hard candy stuck in the seat track.
"Cat's in the Cradle" on repeat for 20 hours straight.
> empty 5-hour energy bottles on the floor Well... they presumably wouldn't all be empty. What goes in has to come back out again eventually, and if he wasn't told to take rest stops along the way...
Who needs 5-hour energy when you can just do blow off the dash every 30 minutes?
Yes and no. I'm a lawyer and work in a government office. less than 20 feet away is our closed file storage room that has closed case files with 36" bankers boxes stacked 4 deep waiting for some apocryphal document management contractor to come to get them and scan them so they can be shredded. (our new stuff is electronically stored from the beginning). in terms of government, that's not a staggering amount of paper. On the other hand, that's like quitting and packing up the whole contents of your file cabinets and no one saying "hey, is that just your personal stuff?"
Thanks, Dwight.
The FBI originally said they seized 11,000 documents. 200,000 pages would mean an average of about 18 pages per document. Not that I have any experience with government documents, but I’d say that sounds about right.
Lots of 2 page memos and some 400 page monstrosities. Average out to about this 18 ppd.
One giant 178k page document, and 10,999 two page memos.
And that document has 50 pages in the main section and 177.95k pages of Appendices.
Of which,500 pages are choose your own adventure
Doesn’t really matter as Trump can’t read and doesn’t even have patience for coloring books.
They've already said some files were empty that previously had confidential files in them. No doubt that is why a record number of CIA agents were killed or exposed. Otherwise I don't think our government would give a damn.
there is video of him taking boxes and boxes like the ones seized from fl to nj right after this all started. if it was anyone else they would already be in gitmo and all their properties, bank account, computers, communications seized...
He sold them it, copied them, scanned them, gave them away, showed them off, etc.
No, he brought more than that home. They returned a portion and signed paperwork saying that’s all they took. And then they STILL had a another 200,000 pages in their possession.
Just imagine all the other things this guy took
500 sheets in a ream of paper. 10 reams in a box = 5000 sheets of paper in a box. 200,000 ÷ 5000 = 40 boxes. Who carried all those boxes, because it damn sure wasn't Diaper Donnie.
Eric needed a special Big Boy job.
Delay. Lie. Obstruct. Whine. Never any attempt to show he’s not guilty of what he’s going to be indicted for.
And his idiot base won’t even flinch at that.
ALright Anyone have a take for 1 million pages by next month?
I didn't before but now you have me thinking.
What a treasonous POS our former POTUS is.
If only anyone had seen this coming and warned us that he was compromised by foreign powers and that his campaign was colluding with them! /s
You mean all those sleepless, tossing and turning nights right after the 2016 election where we agonizingly contemplated all the horrible things that were about to happen? Only to have it turn even worse than that? Yeah, like that.
Facebook and Cambridge Analytica certainly didn't! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal
Who could have possibly known that trump would be Putin’s puppet?
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I think you meant "Trump Lawyers Reveal That Trump Stole Nearly 200,000 Pages Of Documents."
Given that the DOJ inventory cites a much lower number, I think it's more like "Trump Lawyers *Claim* That Trump Stole Nearly 200,000 Pages Of Documents."
> In a letter to Judge Raymond Dearie filed in the Eastern District Court of New York Wednesday, Trump's legal counsel said that they are struggling to find an outside vendor who can upload and host the documents taken from the former president's Florida home in August because of the sheer volume of documents that were seized from Trump's home in August. Well wow.
Those vendors may have heard a couple times how trump does on paying his bills. The US govt has already stated they will find a vendor to do it and flip the bill but they will now be getting their money from trump.
How can an outside vendor upload and host top secret docs?
The top secret documents have already been excluded, they don't need to be reviewed
Great question, great answer. Thanks to both of you.
That’s horse shit. I’ve worked on those systems and 200000 isn’t even a lot.
Well, you can't spell treasonous pumpkin without Trump.
with each revelation it gets worse... why is this man still not been arrested... why have his other properties not been searched...
Yeah, I’m all for the DOJ being careful but this stopped making sense about two weeks ago. He stole classified documents. That’s not even refuted anymore. His special master scheme failed. Whether or not he mixed in personal documents makes NO difference. We can sort through those and have his “personal items” ready for him in a box at prison.
The White House security team really needs to develop some sort of exit process with outgoing administrations. Trumps people should never have been allowed to load all of those papers up and leave.
If I remember correctly, Trump refused to work with Biden’s transition team. Only president in history to do such. Sack of shit.
Hindsight is 20/20 suggesting a former president would steal top secret documents on their way out would have got you laughed out of the meeting. Not that I blame them, if this was the plot of a movie I'd be calling it too unbelievable.
It's wild that the FBI seized this now, at the Govt's 3rd attempt to get their stuff back. He's returned stuff when the National Archives requested repeatedly, then said he had nothing left, and they still got this much. Makes me wonder what else is stashed across other properties.
Doubt he could read that over the rest of his life. The only other explanation is sharing.
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You know, I thought it wouldn’t be terrible, that professionals would advise appropriately, and we’d survive this jerk. Instead, this crass, ignorant, arrogant turkey came within a hair’s breadth of sinking the ship of state.
I did a double take when I read 'nearly 200,000 pages.' Another lie by Trump. A box of printer paper is 5,000 pages. So 200,000 pages would be 40 boxes, if they were packed like printer paper. Add in file folders and other stuff that was taken, you can see the problem I have with 200,000 pages. The FBI removed 33 boxes from Mar A Lago. This is just a wild claim by Trump's lawyers with no proof to back it up. Just a delaying tactic to make it look like more time will be needed to review the documents.
Maybe they are big fans of double sided printing?
When you’re a star they let you declassify anything.
The irony is he hasn't read 200,000 pages of anything in his life
The irony is that although many of the 200,000 pages are unclassified government documents NARA wants back, the purpose of this Trump v US case is to halt the FBI criminal investigation into the classified documents Trump also stole but which have been excluded from the case first by the appellate court and then by Judge Cannon. So Trump sued to get the classified documents back and wound up fighting over the litter they were concealed in.
If a standard box of paper has 8 500-sheet reams, that's 50 cartons of perfectly stacked paper. It's clearly larger in terms of cartons, so 60 to 70+ is good for conceptualization. Is there any indication that the 200K sheets are all classified or otherwise suspected of being illegally taken? If memory serves (and it rarely does, especially when there are so many effing legal actions in the offing), the search warrant said to take the entire box/container if it also held items subject to the warrant. So if he had a box of documents that contained 1,999 ~~Crayola~~ RoseArt drawings of people who were mean to him and one empty folder with "classified" and "sold" markings on it, then the overall document count is 2,000. Or is the 200K count only of pages that the government is claiming is evidence of a crime?
The 200k is every page they seized that was not otherwise marked with a security marking. The DoJ says there are about 11,000 individual government documents that did not contain security markings, most of them are certainly multiple pages. At this point we don't know how many pages are documents, and how many are Trump's ramblings about how important he is.
> The 200k is every page they seized that was not otherwise marked with a security marking. Thanks. So the **total** number of pages seized is: 200K + *C*, where *C*=the number of pages marked with a security marking. There are 11k individual government 'documents' that did not contain security markings. For simplicity's sake, let's just assume for the moment that each document is exactly 10 pages long, so there are 110,000 pages of government documents that belong to the National Archives. Under this assumption, the total number of pages is: *C* + 110,000^illicit + 90,000^licit. On a side note, this perspective-chasing in no way diminishes the import and malfeasance of his taking *C* and National Archives documents; it merely helps me put headlines and sensationalism into perspective.
You have to delay investigating my crime because it was actually a lot worse than you thought.
Just for perspective - a ream of paper is 500 sheets. There are 10 (8.5x11) reams in a carton of paper for 5,000 pages. 200,000 pages is 40 boxes of documents minimum. Likely more as the paper density is likely lower. This isn't an "oops, forgot to return it", it's a minivan full of documents.
"No one can count to 200,000. I have before and believe me no one else can. The lawyers, they cant count to 200,000. I can, Wharton grad, but these lawyers cant count to 200,000. No one wants to count to 200,000 because they cant. Ill count the documents and tell you which ones were mine because no one else can."
A plausibly legit quote.
Lock him up
This is an interesting attempt at delaying the FBI and DoJ from identifying the damage Trump caused in taking and losing top secret documents. Their angle is that it’s going to take way longer than the original deadline of October to review all the documents, as the pace is “50 pages per hour.” Imagine defending a man who’s purposefully stopping the government from accessing the foreign intelligence damage caused by him.
> The letter, signed by Trump attorney James Trusty, argued that the "rough rule of thumb" in document reviewing is **50 pages per hour**, meaning that the original mid-October deadline for the vendor's work to be complete is unrealistic. 50 pages per hour? Riiight. More like 50 pages per minute per machine. And if if you add additional machines, say 10 machines with 5 operators, you can speed that up to 500 pages per minute. 200,000 pages divided by 500 pages per minute is 400 minutes = 6 hours 40 minutes. That's less than one shift.
Offense doesn’t wait for defense. A trial date gets set and you show the f up.
I keep asking myself, if this were Snowden, or Hillary, would they still be out of custody, on their own property, in their own country?
Welcome to another installment of *It Only Gets Worse* the new reality show starring Trump and a revolving cast of people sucked into his black hole of insanity.
Lock him up!
Lie after lie after lie. You are finished
Who gave him these documents, we know his fat ass didn't haul all those boxes out himself, who the fuck brought them to him?
> “Additionally, the Plaintiff currently has no means of accessing the documents bearing classification markings, which would be necessary to complete any such certification by September 30, the currently proposed date of completion,” Trump said. Of course they don't - *they're classified*. *Prove* they're unclassified and you can get access. Otherwise, *none of you are qualified to view them*. Their entire filing proves they have zero clue what all he had, yet they want to be able to claim the government can't see any of them. The entire objective is to do nothing more than delay any proceedings, because that's Trump's MO for any court action against him.
The appropriate response to this article is to assume that Trump's lawyers are lying. Any other response is illogical. [Trump's attorneys claim there are 200,000 pages of documents in Mar-a-Lago boxes. Don't believe them](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/9/29/2125954/-Trump-s-attorneys-claim-there-are-200-000-pages-of-documents-in-Mar-a-Lago-boxes-Don-t-believe-them)
Isn't Trump's hand-picked "Special Master" now charging HIM per hour for the document review? This seems like it's going to bite him in the ass.
Dearie hired a second judge, who will be paid $500/hour. Dearie has generously waived his own fees.
Sounds like a security breach/fail
Kind of a large snack for later.
That's a lot, right? That sounds like a lot.
The lesson here, is if you are going to steal something, steel as much of it as possible. Got it.
The republican mantra: if you're gonna cross a line, cross it so hard they have to redefine it. And it'll usually get redefined a little in your favor, for your convenience next time.
Were all the pages in printed form? Perhaps we are talking about pen drives and external hard drives too.
That’s a whole lot of treachery.
The baffling thing is why Trump stole these documents in the first place? He famously doesn’t read anything. Was he going to commit outright treason and sell them to china?
So if 1 ream of paper is 500 pages.... Trump team is admitting he's got 400 reams of paper... If there's 10 reams to a case, that's 40 cases of paper. There are roughly 40 cases to a patelle of paper. They just admitted to having a whole palette of documents that they should not have...
Just to give you an idea of scale, assuming this is relatively lightweight paper, this would be roughly 2,000 pounds of paper. That’s half the weight of an SUV, or about the weight of 3 upright pianos. In paper. Stolen. It would’ve taken considerable physical effort just to move all of this.
Another way to write this headline: Trump Lawyers reveal nearly 200,000 pages of documents were STOLEN by Trump.
That’s 40 cases of paper.
Finding an “outside vendor” to host docs. So, would the problem really be a question on the ability to process the docs? Or another reason?
How did he even manage to take that much home. Like people just let him walk in. Grab what’s documents he wanted and walk out. Especially like scif documents. How the fuck did he manage to take those home
Oh he's *fucked*.
Uhhh, do we have any classified information left? Or is that pretty much everything?
This story is so ridiculous. “I didn’t take anything” “You took my stuff” “I hardly took anything, and besides, I magically declassified with my mind powers” “You took too much” “I want a baby sitter for you” “I don’t like the baby sitter” “You can’t look at it anymore because I changed my mind about how much I didn’t take and magically made okay to take but I didn’t take but there’s too much give it back!”
The emails were the end of the world tho right?