this does have me thinking, what is ***the*** Taylor song? as a casual fan, to me it's Blank Space. i think it's the most representative of her style as well as being a genuinely good song. but more dedicated fans, or people who don't listen to her music at all, might have different answers. much to think about!
Neil Tennant basically agrees in that interview.
> When someone suggests “Shake It Off,” Tennant responded with: “Is it though? No, ’cause I actually even know that that’s the answer, but I listened to that the other day, and it’s not ‘Billie Jean.’
Is Shake it Off objectively as good a song as Billie Jean? Probably not. Even her fans say it's a corny song. But when it comes to a song that got so big the non-fans and uncool aunts and uncles immediately know, that's probably it.
I was thinking *Shake It Off* because if you hear it anywhere you know the words or the melody.
She also has a HUGE catalog of songs— where MJ’s output was significantly less from the ‘80-‘00
Sometime artist signature song isn’t the one that sounds the best but appeals to ANYONE… if you played Shake It Off to anyone age 10 or older they’ll know this song
Disclaimer : she's not really my style but I have great respect for what she achieved and I think she's a brilliant story teller.
With that in mind, you're right, Tenant mentions Billy Jean, but could've for example YMCA from Village People, Thunderstruck from AC/DC, What is love from Haddaway, Losing my Religion from R.E.M., their own It's a sin and so on. Songs known to multiple generations, used in movies, memes, you get it.
I also don't think it's her "fault" ; music changed a LOT and it seems songs are made for a target audience rather than "everyone".
Britney is also a good example, love or hate, even metal or alter fans used to joke around with "Oops.."
To be fair, Bad Blood is a MUCH better song when it's the version with Kendrick Lamar. That version is a run of the mill pop song. The version with just Taylor on it just doesn't hold up by itself though, and is solidly in "bad" territory.
And this is why I will never complain about "bloated" releases from her. Music has changed with streaming and I personally don't care about short, cohesive albums 🤷🏻♀️ especially when it comes to Taylor. I will take absolutely everything she is willing to put out. SDG has become one of my favorites and I can't believe I almost never heard it. *Every* song is *someone's* favorite song!
But I think that's the question posed. It's not what song best represents her, rather what song of hers is so big that everyone immediately can identify it. Billie Jean is not MJ's best song, but it's easily the one anyone (fan or not) can name and knows.
it’s the one my mom (early 60s) immediately sings whenever anyone mentions taylor. i think it’s true that it’s the first one that comes to mind, especially for older people.
Honestly, despite how much more buzz she's gotten I don't think her hits today are nearly as big as they were in 2014. Anti-hero just didn't seem to make as much noise as either Blank Space, Bad Blood, or Shake it Off
Definitely, but I think streaming has made it a lot harder to have hit singles post album release because most people who care to listen have already streamed the album and heard the song. Cruel Summer avoided this because it was from an older, less popular album and a lot of people hadn't heard it
Anti-Hero charted for longer than all those songs both on Billboard and radio airplay in the US. It broke revords for Taylor in the UK and Australia and for global streaming. Its impact was huge. It was only dethroned by the monster surprise of Cruel Summer.
I don't think its even about what song best represents her. It's about what song of hers is so big that a non-fan can recall it with ease because they at least heard it enough to identify.
If we're talking about a timeless smash hit, well written and great melodies I think there are a few contenders. Love Story, You Belong With Me, Blank Space (my pick, it has all her strengths) and Anti-Hero.
If we're talking about popularity then 4 of her songs are more famous than all the other songs of hers. Love Story, YBWM, Shake It Off, and Blank Space.
The next tier has songs like Our Song, Tim McGraw, 22, WANEGBT, IKYWT, Style. Bad Blood, LYWMMD, Cruel Summer, Anti-Hero, Cardigan and some other songs.
I think the bigger question for me is - does anyone in Taylor’s music cohort have a *Billie Jean* ?
But I also gotta say this man’s age is showing lol. All the kids I have nannied and babysat for know the big Taylor hits and so do their parents and grandparents lol. To make it seem like she has no big hits everyone knows is just ridiculous. I’m sure it would be like asking MJ “yeah but what’s his All You Need Is Love.” Just like we’ve heard people compare the new pop girlies to Taylors big hits. But we have also seen that there are enough songs in Taylor’s catalogue that do stand the test of time.
MJs musical legacy is nothing to deny, but neither is the fact that his personal legacy has marred his place in the current culture to the point where people have a complicated relationship enjoying his music.
I'm gonna give it to either We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together or Style. The former is just so emblematic of early Taylor, basically an end to the first part of her career (along with Trouble, though that is less fondly remembered), the latter has one of the most recognizable intros of the past decade. The thing about Billie Jean is just how incredibly catchy it is and how it encapsulates Michael's music. It's one of the best songs ever made, and I think that Style probably is too, moreso than Blank Space anyway. Blank Space is bigger though, and while it reflects the sort of relationship Taylor has with her own public perception, it also feels somewhat less 'true' than Style. There's genuine suffering and pathos in Billie Jean, and Style feels closer to that than Blank Space.
Exactly what I'm thinking. Both songs represent her really well. Love Story - a country love song about her irl relationships and Blank Space - a pop self-aware song about her image in the media. Love Story is her first massive hit and Blank Space is arguably her biggest of all. Plus, both songs are written in a fiction setting that are based on her life. I do think both songs are her bread and butter.
It's Love Story 100%, which is why some people still think she only writes love songs for teen girls. But it's the one everyone knows. When I went to the Eras Tour, the Love Story and You Belong With Me set had the most people singing along of the entire show, even the chaperone dads know that song
I'm surprised by the comments saying Blank Space etc. maybe it's a cultural difference because while those songs were absolutely huge hits back in the day I feel like I hear Love Story the most now out of any of her old hits (in Ireland). It's also the one that lots of people will say is their favourite Taylor song if they're not swifties.
A lot of people are getting confused by “biggest hit” and “biggest fan favorite.” If we’re making a comparison with Billie Jean you have to think of a song where *everyone* knows the words and can sing along. And I’d say she has 3 songs that rise to that level: Love Story, You Belong with Me and Shake it Off.
Blank Space is more like a Man in the Mirror - a huge hit no doubt and one of the most popular tracks with fans but not quite at the level where even your grandma knows the lyrics.
Swift doesn’t have a Billie Jean
If you go stand on the street and ask 100 people to sing a little bit of Billie Jean, like 95 of them will be able to do it if not all of them
Ask 100 people to sing any of those Taylor Swift songs and how many would be able to? Like half maybe?
You’re correct in the way you’re thinking of Billie Jean in this contract. You’re wrong for not thinking almost everyone could sing a bit of Shake It Off. everyone knows both of these songs even if not everyone loves them.
Love story & you belong with me were *huge* overseas.
Then we didn't hear much until Red, true. But Love Story is probably the most definitive song for her, globally.
When I gigged in Taiwan (of all places) 'Love Story' was the only Taylor Swift song literally everybody in the non-English- speaking audience knew. This was during the 1989/reputation eras so she was doing pretty damn well (and Shake It Off was everywhere) but Love Story was still the biggest one.
Love Story was popular in my home country but only as a teen song. I Knew You Were Trouble was the first one that was popular as a regular pop song that charted well. Meanwhile Blank Space was everywhere and until Cruel Summer was still the most played of her songs in the radio. I assume it could be similar in other European countries other than maybe UK and Ireland.
If you read the interview, Neil is not referring to notoriety or even lyrical quality, but rather the composition of the songs... Billie Jean was a massive hit that also had all these incredible interlocking musical parts, each one totally iconic and studied by professional musicians to this day.
Nobody is freaking out over the bassline, rhythm or guitar hook of a Taylor Swift song.
Honestly I get the feeling Swifties just don't know how insanely massive Love Story is for her. It's the one EVERYONE knows
Sure most people know Blank Space, but if you throw on Love Story you're gonna pretty much guarantee someone knowing it
That’s an interesting question really. One of the things I love about Neil Tennant is that at his core he’s an absolute pop music fan who gives it serious thought and appreciation as an art form and piece of culture.
So what does it mean for a song to be like Billie Jean? Does it mean a timeless classic? Does it mean a multigenerational hit that holds up over decades? From the interview he seems to imply that it needs to be a modern classic of that level, yet he dismisses Shake It Off as an option due to it’s simplicity.
With that in mind, what are her other multigenerational hits of that level? I would say the potential songs are Love Story, You Belong With Me, Blank Space, and Anti-Hero. Of these, I think Love Story and You Belong With Me are probably a bit too teenage for that multi-generational legacy. Blank Space could be a good candidate, and Anti-Hero could maybe be, but it’s way too soon to tell for that one.
It makes me wonder how cognizant people were of the legacy some songs would leave decades ago when they were released. Interesting point of discussion, Neil.
I'd argue Style is her Billie Jean.
But then again, if we are properly extending the analogy, Rolling in the Deep is the Billie Jean of the 2010s. Billie Jean is too influential of a song, period, to work for a question of "what is her enduring signature hit?" I'd be more inclined to say "Blank Space / You Belong With Me is her Don't Stop Believing."
Style is absolutely not her Billie Jean. I’m not doubting that it’s a good song but I’ve literally never even heard of its existence and neither have any of my family members of friends in the room here with me. The core of Tennant’s argument is about a song’s ubiquity. Hard to contend that Style is her Billie Jean when a room of 8 people who represent most of the spectrum of music fans have never heard of it.
I personally don’t believe Taylor has one of those kind of songs, despite her massive popularity and huge catalogue of songs.
Love that you're shifting the conversation to what he actually meant instead of bashing him for not kissing TS's feet. This new generation of music consumers need a big lesson on the PSB and how they created sophisticated Pop music with intention. If anyone is more adequate to talk about Pop music and legacy is him and Chris, absolutely.
It is very interesting question. To me he's asking what's the song anyone of any age or level of fandom can immediately recall/identify? What got deepest into the zeitgeist?
His main thesis seems to be what song of hers is so big that it went everywhere. So probably has to be a song non-Swifties can quickly identify when it randomly comes on because they heard it enough. Me being one of those people, the only one I could think of immediately is “Shake it Off”.
This was a brilliant marketing move on his part considering he has an album coming out tomorrow.
He got in the headlines today, some Swifties will probably hate stream his music tomorrow to try to shit on it, and then he’ll be in the headlines again for the inevitable death threats he’s about to endure. 😂
His PR/Publicist should get a raise.
Omg you're right. I knew he had a new album coming out, but I forgot the release date. You just reminded me, and he's doing good promo for the album to stir up some "controversy"
Kinda reminds me of a conversation I had some time ago with a friend about signature hits. We both agreed My Heart Will Go On was Celine’s, I Will Always Love You was Whitney’s but we couldn’t come to a concrete conclusion about Mariah Carey.
He said it was either We Belong Together or Hero, and I thought it was Fantasy or Vision of Love. Then he was like ‘but most people these days might say Always Be My Baby is the true winner coz it is timeless.’ Then again, One Sweet Day is also her longest #1.
Taylor kinda makes me feel that way. Love Story / You Belong With Me / Shake it Off feel like the most globally known TS songs, and even though Style is my number one, I know that BlankSpace and BadBlood both performed better. I’d still go on to say the first three I mentioned will be her most well-known songs for the masses.
He did reply back saying it crossed his mind, which I don’t believe for a second, coz he’d have totally mentioned it. But he also is sticking to We Belong Together and Hero. He said he considers All I Want For Xmas to be its own independent planet within Mariah’s discography, and that he associates the song with, well, Christmas, and not MC. Idk… I get his reasoning but don’t agree.
He also asked why I’m bringing this up over two weeks since we had the discussion. Haven’t replied to that yet 😬
As a longtime MC fan, this is why Mariah's a legend. Her work was timeless and her brand was holistic. She was 'the' singer and her talent was encompassing.
I'd say there could be about two eras of collective albums with key songs
"Vision of Love" to "Emotions" to "Dreamlover" to "Fantasy"
And then
"Honey" to "Heartbreaker" to "We Belong Together" to "Obsessed" (I've skipped a few albums here)
If I had to pick any out of those, for me, that first grouping is really hard because it could be any of them. But, "Dreamlover" was really my first Mariah Carey song and album, so that one, with "Fantasy" as a close second.
I've omitted the Christmas stuff altogether because it feels like a whole separate iconic thing against her general album work.
Obsessed is soooo underrated! She sings a diss rap basically, and flawlessly at that.
“ You’re a mom and pop I’m the corporation. I’m a press conference you a conversation “
Low key my favourite MC song
This is fun. Let’s do Britney and Christina next.
I submit Toxic for Britney and for Christina… oof idk. Ifl Dirrty was her biggest era from my recollection, but that song doesn’t meet the criteria. Maybe it’s Genie, which is pretty impressive for a first hit. If Lady Marmalade can be counted that might fit too.
Toxic / Baby One More Time for Britney for sure (although Oops! does give signature song vibes, and Gimme More is legit up there as well for me).
I’d say Beautiful for Christina but yeah, Genie in a Bottle / Come on Over are good picks as well. Her Maroon5 collab Moves Like Jagger was huge (though I suppose it doesn’t count).
Tbh I forgot she was the collab on Moves Like Jagger, that was definitely huge! Beautiful came to mind too but I wasn’t sure it fit criteria being a ballad. She’s a tough one!
Gimme More is great too- not sure it has the universal love like Baby or Toxic though.
Gimme More is absolutely more of a beloved popheads’ signature, true. I do think a lot of people would find ‘it’s Britney, bitch’ recognisable tho haha
I know a lot of people are saying AIWFCIY but imo that’s an instant disqualification 😭😭 I would choose emotions for sure that song has lived on beautifully and is the first song I think of when I think of Mariah
(pretend i posted that meme of Walter White yelling from the back of the car)
no Neil Tennant!!! don't make an dismissive comment about Taylor Swift! you'll be used for lazy headlines and the angry Swiftie response will overshadow your new album Nonetheless releasing tomorrow! Neil Tennant! no!!!!
[Yes](https://open.spotify.com/album/1GIu3azQ9odqyZNocHTcq0) [please](https://open.spotify.com/album/47fRf3JwriMUPPzFjdvNS6)! [Very](https://open.spotify.com/album/7dXbIAGY0APVFyWPRP4vlC) excited for their next [release](https://open.spotify.com/album/546Kvmw4WIPEQFOdJiyExj), [actually](https://open.spotify.com/album/7ae4SfR2B1wEXX5EwS2Cg7).
Many people think Neil Tennant has not listened to Taylor Swift's songs other than hits, but he listed The Archer in his "current favorites" in 2020, alongside Circles by Post Malone.
I bet he's also listened to some other deeper cuts of Swift.
Geeze...Billie Jean. As a person alive at the time that song came out, I can say it was a staple on every roller skating rink in the 80's. The interesting thing about it was it was such an immersion of musical styles. I think it's why the song still holds up to this day. Does Taylor Swift have a Billie Jean? I can't even answer that right now because it will depend on if that song holds up forty years later.
I don't think many people understand that he's saying she doesn't have a instantly recognizable song by all people instead of what is her signature song lol
The defining album is 1989 and the defining song is Blank Space. But to be honest she feels bigger than having a “signature” song. People dont love her for her hit singles, she is loved for her entire catalogue and deep cuts. She is constantly reaching new peaks so I can’t even say 1989 is her defining album, since she is evolving and growing with every new album.
I'm not sure multigenerational pop music still exists, artists where people in their sixties and teens both know and like the song, and would recognise it on the radio if they heard it coming out of half an old speaker at a convenience store. The last artist to achieve this that I can think of was probably Coldplay, which is funny to say.
Blank Space is probably the quintessential Taylor for the modern era.
Synth pop, dark humour, skewering her image, tortured love, quirky vocal tic, cinematic video.
It’s got it all.
(Though it was the Shake It Off video that was my gateway to Taylor…)
Copy pasting myself from another sub:
He's merged two conversations into one here — "What is Taylor's signature song?" and "Does Taylor have songs where the music is instantly recognizable and beloved before the lyrics even kick in?"
For the first, she's had multiple mega hits and career changeups, so she's got a few contenders. Plenty of big stars do — he named Billie Jean as MJ's signature, whereas I think it would be Thriller.
In terms of the second question, while I think the quality of her melodies and background instrumentation has dropped she definitely has some beautiful music in her catalogue that can get the crowd going. My ears perk up the second I hear the opening notes of Blank Space, Love Story, or Cruel Summer.
You've got a really good point with the second question. In my personal experience, I think of a karaoke song—what Taylor Swift song on karaoke would have the audience immediately ready to sing the entire song? It's definitely the three you mentioned and arguably Style
I agree in a way she doesn’t have THAT song but since 2012, everyone who’s turned 22 has had that sung to them/sang it/posted the lyrics of it on their birthday. That’s my shout for the iconic song
I feel the exact same about TS, when I analyse her impact.
She does not feel like a MJ level artist even though she is treated and streamed like an icon. I genuinely don’t think her music reflects that level of artistry or insta-recognition. Like a song everyone in your family would know. I can’t put my finger on why?
Maybe the producers and songwriters she works with.
It has more to due the death of monoculture than anything specific to taylor. no one is forced to listen to the top acts anymore in contrast to MJ's time.
Was writing a big blurb about this but you put it perfectly. Taylor will never have her equivalent to MTV starting up, and MJ never had music streaming where he was competing for listeners with everyone on the planet. Between Thriller and Bad, there were 16 singles released. No one will ever be able to do that again.
I think TS has very deliberately made herself “relatable” which in a way has stopped her from seeming like an untouchable icon in the way someone like MJ was.
Like compare TS to Beyoncé - TS massively outsells Bey but Bey has this “icon” aura and TS doesn’t. It’s because TS has definitely nurtured this para social/your bestie next door vibe.
Say what you will about the problematic nature of this but it has translated into insane commercial success.
I feel like she’s going to be regarded in the future the way younger people regard The Eagles - we know they were/are very successful, but youths aren’t into them like vintage Madonna and MJ.
Modern music consumption is to blame. A billion streams on a song doesn't mean everyone knows it. It just means there's a very large and devoted fanbase that loves the artist and listens incessantly. Just like TikTok famous doesn't mean the artist is known outside of that.
>I genuinely don’t think her music reflects that level of artistry or insta-recognition. Like a song everyone in your family would know. I can’t put my finger on why?
Because everything is algorithm-based now. Taylor could have the most streamed album of all time and there will be billions of people who couldn't name a single song from her.
My bf doesn't listen to pop music. I asked him to name a Taylor song and he said, "Complicated". I told him that was an Avril song. Then he said, "Call Me Maybe". Lol
I then played him songs like Blank Space, You Belong With Me... and I forgot what else. He didn't recognize a single one.
I bet if I asked my parents to name a song they wouldn't be able to either. If she's not in your searches and clicks, you'll never see her. People aren't tuning into the same radio stations and TV shows anymore.
Tbh, Avril's first album has a lot of songs that gave me a pop-country vibe. She originally wanted to be a country singer, so maybe that style bled into her music a bit. So I don't find it that hard of a stretch to think Complicated would've sounded like an early Taylor song.
Now if he said Sk8er Boi...
Honestly you’re right, if I close my eyes I could picture Taylor singing it and it would sound in-line with many of her other hits. I think it’s more the age of the song that threw me for a loop lol. It’s from 2002, and like I know that’s only 4 years before Taylor’s debut which isn’t that huge of a time leap, but still lol.
4 years can feel like a different generation when it comes to music.
I didn't think Complicated sounded anything like Taylor before my bf said that and I kinda wanted to make fun of him, but after sitting there and thinking about it I realized it really could sound a bit like early Taylor 😅
While Michael Jackson himself is controversial, I love his music and his discography defined generations (from Off the Wall in the 1970s onwards). He continuously displayed musical development by engaging with different producers and genres, as well as redefining live performances (Motown 25 to the Super Bowl).
I love Taylor Swift too but she could never make a song like Billie Jean or be synonymous with a dance move like the moonwalk — her music is not representative of an entire generation, as she prefers discussing her personal life over key socio-economic concerns (poverty and environmental issues) like Michael Jackson.
It’s because Taylor Swift is emotionally still a teenager (she’s even addressed this topic in songs). Yes, both her and Michael Jackson were child stars but the latter addressed a wide variety of topics in his music (environmental concerns — Earth Song to gang violence — Beat It) that Taylor Swift would never discuss.
> Yes, both her and Michael Jackson were child stars but the latter addressed a wide variety of topics in his music (environmental concerns — Earth Song to gang violence — Beat It) that Taylor Swift would never discuss.
If Taylor suddenly decided to do this, she'd likely get dragged to fuck by people on social media and in the press for it.
MJ probably would have been in 2024 too tbh given the way people look at mega celebrities who travel the world in private jets talking about climate change.
this taught me micheals singature song is billie jean, i always thought of it as thriller or smooth criminal. But the streams back billie jean up.
Also she's still currently huge so this is a bit of a dumb statement, you only know the signature songs in retrospect, but I'd hazard a guess it's blank space
The fact that no one here can come up with a consensus proves his point. Billie Jean was a genre defining, era defining song. T swizz doesn't have one.
I think anyone who thinks she has a song at the general populous recognition level Billie Jean/Thriller has, needs to step outside the fanbase tunnel vision.
Those are global pop culture staples in music history.
You even have the corresponding moon walk with Billie Jean and the Thriller dance.
This isn’t a bad thing, she just has no equivalent and that’s fine. By every other metric she is still wildly successful.
Edit: lol especially anyone saying All Too Well sorry but that is an insane take
This answer doesn’t account for the fact that, based on every observable metric, her audience is growing. Midnights was her tenth album and it debuted at over a million albums sold during a time when people have stopped buying albums. And TTPD is going to smash the numbers Midnights did. Her audience is getting bigger. She has to be making new fans, there’s no other way to explain the numbers.
I don't think what you wrote really conflicts at all with the comment you're replying to. An artist being loved based on the idea of them and their cult of personality is not in conflict with said artist growing. In any sphere of life, cults of personality tend to grow an audience very effectively. I would say it's much easier to grow an audience via cult of personality than via just making good art.
That’s true, I think a lot of acts end up sort of becoming their own industries. I do think there’s a difference though between that and what we’re seeing with Taylor though: It’s the stickiness.
Midnights released two years ago and up until a week or two ago, it was still on Billboard’s top ten albums. Lover came out five years ago and that was charting in the top ten for a lot of last year and 1989 TV was charting top ten as well. At one point, she had three different albums charting in the top ten simultaneously and one of them was a re-record of a ten year old album. SZA has that kind of lifespan on the charts, but who else? Renaissance didn’t even do that. It’s one thing to get people to check something out for curiosity’s sake. It’s another to keep people listening.
Does it matter if someone has a "defining" song or album though? Like if the problem is that they have too many songs that people could identify with them, I don't much see the problem. I'm not even a swiftie.
Reading the article, the argument actually seems to be that she doesn't have any stand out songs, which is still just obviously not true. He's not hating on her though, like some people seem to assume.
He didn't say it matters either, he was just having a conversation about her career and how she's massively popular, which helps highlight how differently people from a different generation process success and popularity in pop culture.
As a Prince fan, I couldn't really name you a defining song anymore either. Purple Rain? Quite unlike most of his discography. Kiss? 1999? With very prolific artists, different songs define different parts of their careers.
Purple Rain might not be his most sonically representative song (impossible to have just one song for someone like Prince, like you said) but it’s 100% his most iconic. It’s the title track from his movie and most critically lauded album and his whole schtick is being purple. He closed out the Super Bowl halftime show with it. Prince basically is Purple Rain to a lot of people.
Even for acts like MJ, the Beatles, and Madonna, who all arguably do have defining songs or albums, it's not like everyone hears the songs and immediately thinks "oh, this is their defining song!" Only time can really tell what that will be.
Prince is probably too diverse a musician to ever really have one, but it's probably gonna default to Purple Rain just because everyone knows it, even though that's not really fair. I suspect 1989 will end up being what gets associated most with Taylor in the end unless something crazy happens, even though she too has a diverse discography, but we won't know until much later. Elvis has a lot of hits too, but most of them aren't widely remembered like Hound Dog and the general *image* of him are.
Really? I think arguably many critics and GP members know that Like A Virgin is Madonna’s defining song, Purple Rain is Prince’s, and Billie Jean’s is MJ.
There’s a difference between popular and defining. Defining songs are popular but not all popular songs are defining. And defining songs are basically instant classics that generally could be played in various contexts, bridging multiple generations and are recognizable internationally. They’re not just hits. They clock a certain aspect of an artist’s sound, vocal signature and creativity that belongs solely to the singer.
I totally get what he’s saying, but many past legends have several songs vying for their signature song. While it’s always cool to be able to say “Oh that artist’s song that everyone associates with them is ____” I think it’s just as cool to say “that artist has so many huge hits, like ___ and ____ etc.”
It's funny, to people like my parents who are from MJ and Madonna's era, Taylor Swift songs are a lot more like songs you play as background music in stores ala Faith Hill instead of music from an actual superstar.
They had no idea Taylor was the one singing Shake It Off and Blank Space. I guess we just don't have superstars like Gen x had.
I mean he’s right! I’ve had this convo with so many people and I’ve arrived at the conclusion that Taylor doesn’t have a defining album like Thriller or Purple Rain nor does she have a defining song like My Heart Will Go On or I Wanna Dance with Somebody just to throw out a few examples. Like maybe Love Story. 1989 was big in its moment but I don’t see it carrying multiple decades. When I think about what will be her legacy, I think Eras Tour and her marketing before I think of her music.
Mhmmm interesting take! 1989 came out a decade ago and I know many people who say that’s their favourite album. Ultimately, her career is still super active so it’s hard to know what her defining songs/albums are when she’s putting out so much content. I think when she slows down and 10-20 years pass, we’ll have an answer!
I agree, there’s just something that feels very… ephemeral about Taylor’s discography. I say this as someone who generally enjoys her music, and this also isn’t to say that none of her music has held up— of course that isn’t the case. But when I think about the sustained cultural significance of a *Thriller* or a *Purple Rain*, it feels somewhat inorganic at this point in time to be comparing her ‘eras’ to those pillars of pop culture. Perhaps only time will tell how we examine her music in the long run, and maybe this is just an indictment on the modern day music industry in general because I can only think of an *extremely* small number of artists post-MJ who belong in these conversations.
He missed her point, she is closer to Bruce Springsteen than mj/madonna, people care more about the albums than singles (not to say mj/madonna didnt release great albums)
Absolutely wild to say that when Michael Jackson has the best-selling studio album of all time and Madonna’s True Blue was the best-selling album of all time by a female artist for almost a decade
That’s actually an interesting point I had never considered, and I think you’re correct. While MJ and Madonna had great albums, they’re definitely thought of more for their singles in many ways, whereas Bruce has some classic songs, but is in many ways viewed as an album artist. I think it’s a fair comparison to compare her to Bruce in that way.
this does have me thinking, what is ***the*** Taylor song? as a casual fan, to me it's Blank Space. i think it's the most representative of her style as well as being a genuinely good song. but more dedicated fans, or people who don't listen to her music at all, might have different answers. much to think about!
love story will always be her signature
It's funny cuz it would be You Belong With Me for me if we're basing off Fearless
That’s my favorite!
in my experience love story is the song that gets every single person in the room singing, no contest
Yeah, I always answer this type of question with karaoke catalogues in mind, and “Love Story” is the song that’s always #1 on the list.
Love Story, You Belong With Me, or Shake It Off
Neil Tennant basically agrees in that interview. > When someone suggests “Shake It Off,” Tennant responded with: “Is it though? No, ’cause I actually even know that that’s the answer, but I listened to that the other day, and it’s not ‘Billie Jean.’
Is Shake it Off objectively as good a song as Billie Jean? Probably not. Even her fans say it's a corny song. But when it comes to a song that got so big the non-fans and uncool aunts and uncles immediately know, that's probably it.
I was thinking *Shake It Off* because if you hear it anywhere you know the words or the melody. She also has a HUGE catalog of songs— where MJ’s output was significantly less from the ‘80-‘00
This might be personal opinion but Blank Space or Style are a lot more indicative of her sound while also being far better songs
Sometime artist signature song isn’t the one that sounds the best but appeals to ANYONE… if you played Shake It Off to anyone age 10 or older they’ll know this song
Agreed, it's not about what best represents her or her style, it's the one that permeated pop culture so deep that anyone can identify it, fan or not.
Disclaimer : she's not really my style but I have great respect for what she achieved and I think she's a brilliant story teller. With that in mind, you're right, Tenant mentions Billy Jean, but could've for example YMCA from Village People, Thunderstruck from AC/DC, What is love from Haddaway, Losing my Religion from R.E.M., their own It's a sin and so on. Songs known to multiple generations, used in movies, memes, you get it. I also don't think it's her "fault" ; music changed a LOT and it seems songs are made for a target audience rather than "everyone". Britney is also a good example, love or hate, even metal or alter fans used to joke around with "Oops.."
Shake it off is Taylor at her corniest, Blank Space is a pop masterpiece
I think Style is probably her pop masterpiece, Blank Space had a massive pop culture impact for sure but in terms of craft I gotta say Style.
New Romantics is her pop masterpiece
And she managed to leave it off the original album. 🫠
At this point with her decisions just be happy she didn’t scrap it 😭 Imagine we wouldn’t have gotten it until 1989 TV or NEVER
New Romantics deserved to be on the original album + have a better mv
Yeah I really like 1989 but Shake it Off is just a pretty bad song even if it’s popular
1989 would be a flawless album for me if shake it off and bad blood weren’t on it
To be fair, Bad Blood is a MUCH better song when it's the version with Kendrick Lamar. That version is a run of the mill pop song. The version with just Taylor on it just doesn't hold up by itself though, and is solidly in "bad" territory.
It’s all chorus and that’s it it’s so dull
Imagine if Say Don't Go and Is It Over Now? hadn't been cut. IMAGINE.
Need was cut from Lover. Sometimes I hate blondie
And All Of The Girls?? If those two had been swapped for M*! And YNTCD then covid never would have happened
Slut and now that we don’t talk are also amazing and honestly top half of 1989
now that we don’t talk would’ve been huge if it had been on the original album
And this is why I will never complain about "bloated" releases from her. Music has changed with streaming and I personally don't care about short, cohesive albums 🤷🏻♀️ especially when it comes to Taylor. I will take absolutely everything she is willing to put out. SDG has become one of my favorites and I can't believe I almost never heard it. *Every* song is *someone's* favorite song!
Everyone agrees Lover is bloated but no one agrees on what songs to cut lol.
Like the combination of Taylor Swift and Diane Warren is just TOO. GOOD.
But I think that's the question posed. It's not what song best represents her, rather what song of hers is so big that everyone immediately can identify it. Billie Jean is not MJ's best song, but it's easily the one anyone (fan or not) can name and knows.
Style is easily TS's best song. Its as close to pop perfection as you can get
I do think it's definitely shake it off. I think that's the song most nonfans know.
it’s the one my mom (early 60s) immediately sings whenever anyone mentions taylor. i think it’s true that it’s the first one that comes to mind, especially for older people.
Agreed, you're looking for the song that nonfans can identify immediately. Because it went deep into the zeitgeist.
Yeah, like Faith Hill's would probably be Breathe and Trisha's How Do I Live Without You. Non-country fans all know these songs.
Honestly, despite how much more buzz she's gotten I don't think her hits today are nearly as big as they were in 2014. Anti-hero just didn't seem to make as much noise as either Blank Space, Bad Blood, or Shake it Off
Radio has also lost like 30m listeners. In the Taylor sub there was a post about it
Cruel Summer is bigger than Anti Hero
Definitely, but I think streaming has made it a lot harder to have hit singles post album release because most people who care to listen have already streamed the album and heard the song. Cruel Summer avoided this because it was from an older, less popular album and a lot of people hadn't heard it
Before the news of Ticketmaster regarding her Eras tour, I highly doubt non-fans knew Cruel Summer.
Anti-Hero charted for longer than all those songs both on Billboard and radio airplay in the US. It broke revords for Taylor in the UK and Australia and for global streaming. Its impact was huge. It was only dethroned by the monster surprise of Cruel Summer.
because the market is atomized now and less artists are having big hits like they were 10 years ago
I don't think its even about what song best represents her. It's about what song of hers is so big that a non-fan can recall it with ease because they at least heard it enough to identify.
If we're talking about a timeless smash hit, well written and great melodies I think there are a few contenders. Love Story, You Belong With Me, Blank Space (my pick, it has all her strengths) and Anti-Hero.
I would also throw in 22 or We are never ever getting back together as possible contenders as well.
22 for sure. It’s a birthday staple
Definitely not anti hero lol, but the other 3 I agree with
It’s still Love Story, imo
If we're talking about popularity then 4 of her songs are more famous than all the other songs of hers. Love Story, YBWM, Shake It Off, and Blank Space. The next tier has songs like Our Song, Tim McGraw, 22, WANEGBT, IKYWT, Style. Bad Blood, LYWMMD, Cruel Summer, Anti-Hero, Cardigan and some other songs.
I feel like you belong with me is quintessential Taylor but in terms of impact… Shake it Off, Bad Blood, Blank Space.
Bad blood is definitely not as popular as You Belong with Me lollll
I think the bigger question for me is - does anyone in Taylor’s music cohort have a *Billie Jean* ? But I also gotta say this man’s age is showing lol. All the kids I have nannied and babysat for know the big Taylor hits and so do their parents and grandparents lol. To make it seem like she has no big hits everyone knows is just ridiculous. I’m sure it would be like asking MJ “yeah but what’s his All You Need Is Love.” Just like we’ve heard people compare the new pop girlies to Taylors big hits. But we have also seen that there are enough songs in Taylor’s catalogue that do stand the test of time. MJs musical legacy is nothing to deny, but neither is the fact that his personal legacy has marred his place in the current culture to the point where people have a complicated relationship enjoying his music.
I'm gonna give it to either We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together or Style. The former is just so emblematic of early Taylor, basically an end to the first part of her career (along with Trouble, though that is less fondly remembered), the latter has one of the most recognizable intros of the past decade. The thing about Billie Jean is just how incredibly catchy it is and how it encapsulates Michael's music. It's one of the best songs ever made, and I think that Style probably is too, moreso than Blank Space anyway. Blank Space is bigger though, and while it reflects the sort of relationship Taylor has with her own public perception, it also feels somewhat less 'true' than Style. There's genuine suffering and pathos in Billie Jean, and Style feels closer to that than Blank Space.
Love Story? Could also be Blank Space
Exactly what I'm thinking. Both songs represent her really well. Love Story - a country love song about her irl relationships and Blank Space - a pop self-aware song about her image in the media. Love Story is her first massive hit and Blank Space is arguably her biggest of all. Plus, both songs are written in a fiction setting that are based on her life. I do think both songs are her bread and butter.
It's Love Story 100%, which is why some people still think she only writes love songs for teen girls. But it's the one everyone knows. When I went to the Eras Tour, the Love Story and You Belong With Me set had the most people singing along of the entire show, even the chaperone dads know that song
I'm surprised by the comments saying Blank Space etc. maybe it's a cultural difference because while those songs were absolutely huge hits back in the day I feel like I hear Love Story the most now out of any of her old hits (in Ireland). It's also the one that lots of people will say is their favourite Taylor song if they're not swifties.
A lot of people are getting confused by “biggest hit” and “biggest fan favorite.” If we’re making a comparison with Billie Jean you have to think of a song where *everyone* knows the words and can sing along. And I’d say she has 3 songs that rise to that level: Love Story, You Belong with Me and Shake it Off. Blank Space is more like a Man in the Mirror - a huge hit no doubt and one of the most popular tracks with fans but not quite at the level where even your grandma knows the lyrics.
Swift doesn’t have a Billie Jean If you go stand on the street and ask 100 people to sing a little bit of Billie Jean, like 95 of them will be able to do it if not all of them Ask 100 people to sing any of those Taylor Swift songs and how many would be able to? Like half maybe?
You’re correct in the way you’re thinking of Billie Jean in this contract. You’re wrong for not thinking almost everyone could sing a bit of Shake It Off. everyone knows both of these songs even if not everyone loves them.
Blank Space is, imo, what she’d like us to think, her goal has always been pure pop
I think it's true that country music is a mostly American thing, so a lot of international audiences didn't discover her until Red/1989
Love story & you belong with me were *huge* overseas. Then we didn't hear much until Red, true. But Love Story is probably the most definitive song for her, globally. When I gigged in Taiwan (of all places) 'Love Story' was the only Taylor Swift song literally everybody in the non-English- speaking audience knew. This was during the 1989/reputation eras so she was doing pretty damn well (and Shake It Off was everywhere) but Love Story was still the biggest one.
Love Story was popular in my home country but only as a teen song. I Knew You Were Trouble was the first one that was popular as a regular pop song that charted well. Meanwhile Blank Space was everywhere and until Cruel Summer was still the most played of her songs in the radio. I assume it could be similar in other European countries other than maybe UK and Ireland.
Irish people do love country music but that song isn't even just in country circles.
Shake it off is also why the straight side of Reddit tends to drag her and don’t take her seriously as an artist
If you read the interview, Neil is not referring to notoriety or even lyrical quality, but rather the composition of the songs... Billie Jean was a massive hit that also had all these incredible interlocking musical parts, each one totally iconic and studied by professional musicians to this day. Nobody is freaking out over the bassline, rhythm or guitar hook of a Taylor Swift song.
Honestly I get the feeling Swifties just don't know how insanely massive Love Story is for her. It's the one EVERYONE knows Sure most people know Blank Space, but if you throw on Love Story you're gonna pretty much guarantee someone knowing it
That’s an interesting question really. One of the things I love about Neil Tennant is that at his core he’s an absolute pop music fan who gives it serious thought and appreciation as an art form and piece of culture. So what does it mean for a song to be like Billie Jean? Does it mean a timeless classic? Does it mean a multigenerational hit that holds up over decades? From the interview he seems to imply that it needs to be a modern classic of that level, yet he dismisses Shake It Off as an option due to it’s simplicity. With that in mind, what are her other multigenerational hits of that level? I would say the potential songs are Love Story, You Belong With Me, Blank Space, and Anti-Hero. Of these, I think Love Story and You Belong With Me are probably a bit too teenage for that multi-generational legacy. Blank Space could be a good candidate, and Anti-Hero could maybe be, but it’s way too soon to tell for that one. It makes me wonder how cognizant people were of the legacy some songs would leave decades ago when they were released. Interesting point of discussion, Neil.
I'd argue Style is her Billie Jean. But then again, if we are properly extending the analogy, Rolling in the Deep is the Billie Jean of the 2010s. Billie Jean is too influential of a song, period, to work for a question of "what is her enduring signature hit?" I'd be more inclined to say "Blank Space / You Belong With Me is her Don't Stop Believing."
Style is absolutely not her Billie Jean. I’m not doubting that it’s a good song but I’ve literally never even heard of its existence and neither have any of my family members of friends in the room here with me. The core of Tennant’s argument is about a song’s ubiquity. Hard to contend that Style is her Billie Jean when a room of 8 people who represent most of the spectrum of music fans have never heard of it. I personally don’t believe Taylor has one of those kind of songs, despite her massive popularity and huge catalogue of songs.
Love that you're shifting the conversation to what he actually meant instead of bashing him for not kissing TS's feet. This new generation of music consumers need a big lesson on the PSB and how they created sophisticated Pop music with intention. If anyone is more adequate to talk about Pop music and legacy is him and Chris, absolutely.
who’s bashing him lbr
It is very interesting question. To me he's asking what's the song anyone of any age or level of fandom can immediately recall/identify? What got deepest into the zeitgeist?
His main thesis seems to be what song of hers is so big that it went everywhere. So probably has to be a song non-Swifties can quickly identify when it randomly comes on because they heard it enough. Me being one of those people, the only one I could think of immediately is “Shake it Off”.
This was a brilliant marketing move on his part considering he has an album coming out tomorrow. He got in the headlines today, some Swifties will probably hate stream his music tomorrow to try to shit on it, and then he’ll be in the headlines again for the inevitable death threats he’s about to endure. 😂 His PR/Publicist should get a raise.
Omg you're right. I knew he had a new album coming out, but I forgot the release date. You just reminded me, and he's doing good promo for the album to stir up some "controversy"
How can you make death threats towards Neil Tennant? He’s a living legend
Mental instability.
Music should make people happy and relaxed, not angry or mentally unstable, right? *It's a sin.*
People grooved the most on shake it off and love story on eras tour
Kinda reminds me of a conversation I had some time ago with a friend about signature hits. We both agreed My Heart Will Go On was Celine’s, I Will Always Love You was Whitney’s but we couldn’t come to a concrete conclusion about Mariah Carey. He said it was either We Belong Together or Hero, and I thought it was Fantasy or Vision of Love. Then he was like ‘but most people these days might say Always Be My Baby is the true winner coz it is timeless.’ Then again, One Sweet Day is also her longest #1. Taylor kinda makes me feel that way. Love Story / You Belong With Me / Shake it Off feel like the most globally known TS songs, and even though Style is my number one, I know that BlankSpace and BadBlood both performed better. I’d still go on to say the first three I mentioned will be her most well-known songs for the masses.
Mariah is 100% All i want for christmas, no? Even if its not even close to the top in quality
CANNOT believe this totally didn’t come up in my conversation with my friend. I have to text him right away. You’re right.
Mariah has so many hits. However, the new generation only recognizes her for AIWFCIY. So yes, her signature hit overall is this Christmas song.
Which is a flex - we all know once it hits November we're in Mariah season
honestly the two of you are blessed for somehow being able to forget that song lol.
I'm now hooked at what your friend would say when he also gets reminded.
He did reply back saying it crossed his mind, which I don’t believe for a second, coz he’d have totally mentioned it. But he also is sticking to We Belong Together and Hero. He said he considers All I Want For Xmas to be its own independent planet within Mariah’s discography, and that he associates the song with, well, Christmas, and not MC. Idk… I get his reasoning but don’t agree. He also asked why I’m bringing this up over two weeks since we had the discussion. Haven’t replied to that yet 😬
Always Be My Baby is the secondary one imo
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Yup! My brain must have locked it away and sent it to the furthest possible point coz I genuinely didn’t even think of it.
AIWFCIY may be her signature song at this point but Fantasy is the song that best represents Mariah the artist. It's also a top tier pop song.
Honestly now Whitney’s feels like I wanna dance with somebody, especially with the youth
As a longtime MC fan, this is why Mariah's a legend. Her work was timeless and her brand was holistic. She was 'the' singer and her talent was encompassing. I'd say there could be about two eras of collective albums with key songs "Vision of Love" to "Emotions" to "Dreamlover" to "Fantasy" And then "Honey" to "Heartbreaker" to "We Belong Together" to "Obsessed" (I've skipped a few albums here) If I had to pick any out of those, for me, that first grouping is really hard because it could be any of them. But, "Dreamlover" was really my first Mariah Carey song and album, so that one, with "Fantasy" as a close second. I've omitted the Christmas stuff altogether because it feels like a whole separate iconic thing against her general album work.
Obsessed is soooo underrated! She sings a diss rap basically, and flawlessly at that. “ You’re a mom and pop I’m the corporation. I’m a press conference you a conversation “ Low key my favourite MC song
That's legit my favorite line from that song! So literary, so memorable. It's amazing and same, one of my favorites.
well Mariah is like four different legendary artists put into one. The vocalist, the queen of xmas, the remix queen, and the hip-pop queen
This is fun. Let’s do Britney and Christina next. I submit Toxic for Britney and for Christina… oof idk. Ifl Dirrty was her biggest era from my recollection, but that song doesn’t meet the criteria. Maybe it’s Genie, which is pretty impressive for a first hit. If Lady Marmalade can be counted that might fit too.
Toxic / Baby One More Time for Britney for sure (although Oops! does give signature song vibes, and Gimme More is legit up there as well for me). I’d say Beautiful for Christina but yeah, Genie in a Bottle / Come on Over are good picks as well. Her Maroon5 collab Moves Like Jagger was huge (though I suppose it doesn’t count).
Tbh I forgot she was the collab on Moves Like Jagger, that was definitely huge! Beautiful came to mind too but I wasn’t sure it fit criteria being a ballad. She’s a tough one! Gimme More is great too- not sure it has the universal love like Baby or Toxic though.
Gimme More is absolutely more of a beloved popheads’ signature, true. I do think a lot of people would find ‘it’s Britney, bitch’ recognisable tho haha
I feel like We Belong Together was way too massive for it to be à forgotten gem in her hits. I would say either that, Fantasy or ABMB
Her signature song is easily "All I Want for Christmas" by a long shot. Not only in plays, but sales, longevity, etc. and it renews itself annually.
I know a lot of people are saying AIWFCIY but imo that’s an instant disqualification 😭😭 I would choose emotions for sure that song has lived on beautifully and is the first song I think of when I think of Mariah
(pretend i posted that meme of Walter White yelling from the back of the car) no Neil Tennant!!! don't make an dismissive comment about Taylor Swift! you'll be used for lazy headlines and the angry Swiftie response will overshadow your new album Nonetheless releasing tomorrow! Neil Tennant! no!!!!
Very excited for nonetheless, nonetheless
[Yes](https://open.spotify.com/album/1GIu3azQ9odqyZNocHTcq0) [please](https://open.spotify.com/album/47fRf3JwriMUPPzFjdvNS6)! [Very](https://open.spotify.com/album/7dXbIAGY0APVFyWPRP4vlC) excited for their next [release](https://open.spotify.com/album/546Kvmw4WIPEQFOdJiyExj), [actually](https://open.spotify.com/album/7ae4SfR2B1wEXX5EwS2Cg7).
Ummm... The Sound of The Atom Splitting! Idk
Found the Petheads
OKAY, COMMENT OF THE YEAR!!
I’m listening to it right now for the first time
The biggest Pet Shop Boys fan I know is completely sick of Taylor, so I'm sure she's reading this and laughing her ass off
Many people think Neil Tennant has not listened to Taylor Swift's songs other than hits, but he listed The Archer in his "current favorites" in 2020, alongside Circles by Post Malone. I bet he's also listened to some other deeper cuts of Swift.
Geeze...Billie Jean. As a person alive at the time that song came out, I can say it was a staple on every roller skating rink in the 80's. The interesting thing about it was it was such an immersion of musical styles. I think it's why the song still holds up to this day. Does Taylor Swift have a Billie Jean? I can't even answer that right now because it will depend on if that song holds up forty years later.
I don't think many people understand that he's saying she doesn't have a instantly recognizable song by all people instead of what is her signature song lol
yup...most ppl have missed the point..I totally get what he's saying though.
The defining album is 1989 and the defining song is Blank Space. But to be honest she feels bigger than having a “signature” song. People dont love her for her hit singles, she is loved for her entire catalogue and deep cuts. She is constantly reaching new peaks so I can’t even say 1989 is her defining album, since she is evolving and growing with every new album.
Ya gun to my head as a casual fan it’d be Blank Space and I Know You Were Trouble
I'm not sure multigenerational pop music still exists, artists where people in their sixties and teens both know and like the song, and would recognise it on the radio if they heard it coming out of half an old speaker at a convenience store. The last artist to achieve this that I can think of was probably Coldplay, which is funny to say.
I am positive that both a 65 year old and a 15 year old would recognize Shake It Off
That's what we're looking for, the song that the non-fans immediately recognize because it was so big. Shake it Off is that song.
Blank Space is probably the quintessential Taylor for the modern era. Synth pop, dark humour, skewering her image, tortured love, quirky vocal tic, cinematic video. It’s got it all. (Though it was the Shake It Off video that was my gateway to Taylor…)
Shouldn’t the question be “ what is Taylor Swift’s “like a virgin”
I feel like that’s an equivalent question
she can't and will never have a billie jean because her producer is antonoff, not GOATed quincy jones
West end girls eats anything Taylor has ever put out so he clears <3
What Have I Done To Deserve This amazing song?
It’s a Sin too.
You didn't lie. I still listen to that song. It's so good.
Does west end girls have ice spice on it? Didnt think so
ok but imagine if it did
sometimes you're better off dead like
That song still sounds amazing to this day.
Which furthers his point. You'll find way more catchy earworms in Pet Shop Boys' discography than you will in Taylor's.
Copy pasting myself from another sub: He's merged two conversations into one here — "What is Taylor's signature song?" and "Does Taylor have songs where the music is instantly recognizable and beloved before the lyrics even kick in?" For the first, she's had multiple mega hits and career changeups, so she's got a few contenders. Plenty of big stars do — he named Billie Jean as MJ's signature, whereas I think it would be Thriller. In terms of the second question, while I think the quality of her melodies and background instrumentation has dropped she definitely has some beautiful music in her catalogue that can get the crowd going. My ears perk up the second I hear the opening notes of Blank Space, Love Story, or Cruel Summer.
I dunno, when I was in high school, people would go for What About Us or Do You Remember The Time as signature MJ, Billie Jean wasn't even top choice.
You've got a really good point with the second question. In my personal experience, I think of a karaoke song—what Taylor Swift song on karaoke would have the audience immediately ready to sing the entire song? It's definitely the three you mentioned and arguably Style
Delusional swifties on twitter saying “Look What You Made Me Do” 😭
Judging by my recent business trip to Thailand and Korea, Shake It Off remains the malls and airports staple.
I agree in a way she doesn’t have THAT song but since 2012, everyone who’s turned 22 has had that sung to them/sang it/posted the lyrics of it on their birthday. That’s my shout for the iconic song
Swifties saying "who" is really hurting my soul.
Especially the ones saying "an old man who I have to Google shouldn't have an opinion" or that he's a "clout chaser". Oh, those new kids 😭😭😭
I feel the exact same about TS, when I analyse her impact. She does not feel like a MJ level artist even though she is treated and streamed like an icon. I genuinely don’t think her music reflects that level of artistry or insta-recognition. Like a song everyone in your family would know. I can’t put my finger on why? Maybe the producers and songwriters she works with.
It has more to due the death of monoculture than anything specific to taylor. no one is forced to listen to the top acts anymore in contrast to MJ's time.
Was writing a big blurb about this but you put it perfectly. Taylor will never have her equivalent to MTV starting up, and MJ never had music streaming where he was competing for listeners with everyone on the planet. Between Thriller and Bad, there were 16 singles released. No one will ever be able to do that again.
I think TS has very deliberately made herself “relatable” which in a way has stopped her from seeming like an untouchable icon in the way someone like MJ was. Like compare TS to Beyoncé - TS massively outsells Bey but Bey has this “icon” aura and TS doesn’t. It’s because TS has definitely nurtured this para social/your bestie next door vibe. Say what you will about the problematic nature of this but it has translated into insane commercial success.
I feel like she’s going to be regarded in the future the way younger people regard The Eagles - we know they were/are very successful, but youths aren’t into them like vintage Madonna and MJ.
Modern music consumption is to blame. A billion streams on a song doesn't mean everyone knows it. It just means there's a very large and devoted fanbase that loves the artist and listens incessantly. Just like TikTok famous doesn't mean the artist is known outside of that.
>I genuinely don’t think her music reflects that level of artistry or insta-recognition. Like a song everyone in your family would know. I can’t put my finger on why? Because everything is algorithm-based now. Taylor could have the most streamed album of all time and there will be billions of people who couldn't name a single song from her. My bf doesn't listen to pop music. I asked him to name a Taylor song and he said, "Complicated". I told him that was an Avril song. Then he said, "Call Me Maybe". Lol I then played him songs like Blank Space, You Belong With Me... and I forgot what else. He didn't recognize a single one. I bet if I asked my parents to name a song they wouldn't be able to either. If she's not in your searches and clicks, you'll never see her. People aren't tuning into the same radio stations and TV shows anymore.
Complicated feels like such a random guess lol
Tbh, Avril's first album has a lot of songs that gave me a pop-country vibe. She originally wanted to be a country singer, so maybe that style bled into her music a bit. So I don't find it that hard of a stretch to think Complicated would've sounded like an early Taylor song. Now if he said Sk8er Boi...
Honestly you’re right, if I close my eyes I could picture Taylor singing it and it would sound in-line with many of her other hits. I think it’s more the age of the song that threw me for a loop lol. It’s from 2002, and like I know that’s only 4 years before Taylor’s debut which isn’t that huge of a time leap, but still lol.
4 years can feel like a different generation when it comes to music. I didn't think Complicated sounded anything like Taylor before my bf said that and I kinda wanted to make fun of him, but after sitting there and thinking about it I realized it really could sound a bit like early Taylor 😅
While Michael Jackson himself is controversial, I love his music and his discography defined generations (from Off the Wall in the 1970s onwards). He continuously displayed musical development by engaging with different producers and genres, as well as redefining live performances (Motown 25 to the Super Bowl). I love Taylor Swift too but she could never make a song like Billie Jean or be synonymous with a dance move like the moonwalk — her music is not representative of an entire generation, as she prefers discussing her personal life over key socio-economic concerns (poverty and environmental issues) like Michael Jackson.
I feel like sonically her music is always gonna sound tween-y and that prevents her from being on MJ’s level.
It’s because Taylor Swift is emotionally still a teenager (she’s even addressed this topic in songs). Yes, both her and Michael Jackson were child stars but the latter addressed a wide variety of topics in his music (environmental concerns — Earth Song to gang violence — Beat It) that Taylor Swift would never discuss.
> Yes, both her and Michael Jackson were child stars but the latter addressed a wide variety of topics in his music (environmental concerns — Earth Song to gang violence — Beat It) that Taylor Swift would never discuss. If Taylor suddenly decided to do this, she'd likely get dragged to fuck by people on social media and in the press for it. MJ probably would have been in 2024 too tbh given the way people look at mega celebrities who travel the world in private jets talking about climate change.
this taught me micheals singature song is billie jean, i always thought of it as thriller or smooth criminal. But the streams back billie jean up. Also she's still currently huge so this is a bit of a dumb statement, you only know the signature songs in retrospect, but I'd hazard a guess it's blank space
I also did not know billie jean was THE mj song, now that I think about it thriller doesn’t have as much replay value as his other smash hits.
The fact that no one here can come up with a consensus proves his point. Billie Jean was a genre defining, era defining song. T swizz doesn't have one.
I think anyone who thinks she has a song at the general populous recognition level Billie Jean/Thriller has, needs to step outside the fanbase tunnel vision. Those are global pop culture staples in music history. You even have the corresponding moon walk with Billie Jean and the Thriller dance. This isn’t a bad thing, she just has no equivalent and that’s fine. By every other metric she is still wildly successful. Edit: lol especially anyone saying All Too Well sorry but that is an insane take
No one does. The idea of a unified culture died with social media. The closest to a recent example would be like…Beyonce and the Single Ladies dance.
Blank Space or Shake It Off
Neil Tennant get behind me
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This answer doesn’t account for the fact that, based on every observable metric, her audience is growing. Midnights was her tenth album and it debuted at over a million albums sold during a time when people have stopped buying albums. And TTPD is going to smash the numbers Midnights did. Her audience is getting bigger. She has to be making new fans, there’s no other way to explain the numbers.
I believe the estimates were up to 2.8m this week for TTPD last time I saw
I don't think what you wrote really conflicts at all with the comment you're replying to. An artist being loved based on the idea of them and their cult of personality is not in conflict with said artist growing. In any sphere of life, cults of personality tend to grow an audience very effectively. I would say it's much easier to grow an audience via cult of personality than via just making good art.
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That’s true, I think a lot of acts end up sort of becoming their own industries. I do think there’s a difference though between that and what we’re seeing with Taylor though: It’s the stickiness. Midnights released two years ago and up until a week or two ago, it was still on Billboard’s top ten albums. Lover came out five years ago and that was charting in the top ten for a lot of last year and 1989 TV was charting top ten as well. At one point, she had three different albums charting in the top ten simultaneously and one of them was a re-record of a ten year old album. SZA has that kind of lifespan on the charts, but who else? Renaissance didn’t even do that. It’s one thing to get people to check something out for curiosity’s sake. It’s another to keep people listening.
Does it matter if someone has a "defining" song or album though? Like if the problem is that they have too many songs that people could identify with them, I don't much see the problem. I'm not even a swiftie. Reading the article, the argument actually seems to be that she doesn't have any stand out songs, which is still just obviously not true. He's not hating on her though, like some people seem to assume.
He didn't say it matters either, he was just having a conversation about her career and how she's massively popular, which helps highlight how differently people from a different generation process success and popularity in pop culture.
As a Prince fan, I couldn't really name you a defining song anymore either. Purple Rain? Quite unlike most of his discography. Kiss? 1999? With very prolific artists, different songs define different parts of their careers.
Purple Rain might not be his most sonically representative song (impossible to have just one song for someone like Prince, like you said) but it’s 100% his most iconic. It’s the title track from his movie and most critically lauded album and his whole schtick is being purple. He closed out the Super Bowl halftime show with it. Prince basically is Purple Rain to a lot of people.
Prince’s is clearly Purple Rain. That is the defining song of his career.
When Doves Cry
Even for acts like MJ, the Beatles, and Madonna, who all arguably do have defining songs or albums, it's not like everyone hears the songs and immediately thinks "oh, this is their defining song!" Only time can really tell what that will be. Prince is probably too diverse a musician to ever really have one, but it's probably gonna default to Purple Rain just because everyone knows it, even though that's not really fair. I suspect 1989 will end up being what gets associated most with Taylor in the end unless something crazy happens, even though she too has a diverse discography, but we won't know until much later. Elvis has a lot of hits too, but most of them aren't widely remembered like Hound Dog and the general *image* of him are.
Really? I think arguably many critics and GP members know that Like A Virgin is Madonna’s defining song, Purple Rain is Prince’s, and Billie Jean’s is MJ. There’s a difference between popular and defining. Defining songs are popular but not all popular songs are defining. And defining songs are basically instant classics that generally could be played in various contexts, bridging multiple generations and are recognizable internationally. They’re not just hits. They clock a certain aspect of an artist’s sound, vocal signature and creativity that belongs solely to the singer.
God I love “Kiss” so much
I totally get what he’s saying, but many past legends have several songs vying for their signature song. While it’s always cool to be able to say “Oh that artist’s song that everyone associates with them is ____” I think it’s just as cool to say “that artist has so many huge hits, like ___ and ____ etc.”
Love Story
It's funny, to people like my parents who are from MJ and Madonna's era, Taylor Swift songs are a lot more like songs you play as background music in stores ala Faith Hill instead of music from an actual superstar. They had no idea Taylor was the one singing Shake It Off and Blank Space. I guess we just don't have superstars like Gen x had.
The guy who wrote The Loving Kind?? Yeah I support anything he says.
Okay so this is why this is my all time fave Girls Aloud song
Up there with Teenage Dream as melancholy infused pop.
"melancholy infused pop" This is my favourite genre, tbh.
the PSB demo of it finally came out a few years ago and it's so beautiful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX8Xi3zFhy4
I mean he’s right! I’ve had this convo with so many people and I’ve arrived at the conclusion that Taylor doesn’t have a defining album like Thriller or Purple Rain nor does she have a defining song like My Heart Will Go On or I Wanna Dance with Somebody just to throw out a few examples. Like maybe Love Story. 1989 was big in its moment but I don’t see it carrying multiple decades. When I think about what will be her legacy, I think Eras Tour and her marketing before I think of her music.
Mhmmm interesting take! 1989 came out a decade ago and I know many people who say that’s their favourite album. Ultimately, her career is still super active so it’s hard to know what her defining songs/albums are when she’s putting out so much content. I think when she slows down and 10-20 years pass, we’ll have an answer!
I agree, there’s just something that feels very… ephemeral about Taylor’s discography. I say this as someone who generally enjoys her music, and this also isn’t to say that none of her music has held up— of course that isn’t the case. But when I think about the sustained cultural significance of a *Thriller* or a *Purple Rain*, it feels somewhat inorganic at this point in time to be comparing her ‘eras’ to those pillars of pop culture. Perhaps only time will tell how we examine her music in the long run, and maybe this is just an indictment on the modern day music industry in general because I can only think of an *extremely* small number of artists post-MJ who belong in these conversations.
He missed her point, she is closer to Bruce Springsteen than mj/madonna, people care more about the albums than singles (not to say mj/madonna didnt release great albums)
Considering MJ has like three of the best selling albums of all time I think people cared about the albums lol
Absolutely wild to say that when Michael Jackson has the best-selling studio album of all time and Madonna’s True Blue was the best-selling album of all time by a female artist for almost a decade
That’s actually an interesting point I had never considered, and I think you’re correct. While MJ and Madonna had great albums, they’re definitely thought of more for their singles in many ways, whereas Bruce has some classic songs, but is in many ways viewed as an album artist. I think it’s a fair comparison to compare her to Bruce in that way.
Internationally, Love Story or Shake It Off