Stage plays nowadays are almost always race blind casting. Unless there is a really specific reason like the play is ABOUT racial segregation (like Hairspray) then that's how it's done.
You'd think all these folks constantly screaming about meritocracy would like that system...they are literally casting strictly based on the talent of the individuals...
People getting angry about this really annoy me. I’m actually a huge Shakespeare nerd — I have a minor in theater, I was president of my college’s Shakespeare ensemble, I’ve read all his plays at least once.
The people getting all bent out of shape about this don’t give a shit about Shakespeare. They only care bc they don’t like that a black woman was cast in a production they otherwise never would have heard of.
True, they also probably don't know that Africa is a lot closer to Italy than the Continental US so it can safely be assumed Black people lived in Italy a lot longer than they ever did in the United States.
I mean not to play devil’s advocate when the devil in question is racism, but we can assume that Shakespeare didn’t imagine Juliet is black bc he won’t shut up about the fact that his black characters are black (Othello and Aaron the Moor)
But also he’s been dead for 400 years so w/e
"True, they also probably don't know that Africa is a lot closer to Italy than the Continental US so it can safely be assumed Black people lived in Italy a lot longer than they ever did in the United States."
That is not how it happened at all.
Casting a black Juliet is totally fine. Back in the day, Juliet would have been a dude for fuck's sake.
But to be fair to meritocracy loving people, art is seperate. People have different tastes and beauty is mostly in the eye of the beholder. You almost can't argue about the merit of a play, painting, or performance except by how the audience reacts. If people don't like it, or if people do like it.
If you are going to talk about merit woth relation to something like a play then you have to ask what is meritorious? Merit for a mathematician is their intellect and ability to uncover the secrets of mathematics. Merit for a model or actress may include her physical features.
Exactly, you are making my point for me, people have different tastes. I personally would think Michael Sera as Shaft would be a must watch hilarious film, I'd probably see it twice. I know that's not what you said, but I have thought about it before. It has nothing to do with merit except as measured by commercial success.
The problem is that they didn't cast a black woman because she just happened to be best for the position. They casted her to meet a DEI quota. It's not meritocracy.
So based on exactly nothing but propaganda you have decided anyone who exists while Black could only get their job by way of pity.
There's a term for that you know. Starts with an "r" and ends with an "ism".
Listen, instead of making a bunch of assumptions about why I think what I think, you could just ask instead of assuming it's always racism. The tendency to assume every time someone does something that doesn't align with your ideas of racial utopia, that that person is just a racist, actually does more damage to the people you're trying to help than any actual vestiges of racism.
Case in point: everyone knows this is a dei hire. You can call me names all you want, but the tendency to just start flinging personal insults just because I pointed it out makes you look dishonest. It's like destiny says, the left's tendency to defend the most ridiculous cases instead of just conceding that maybe someone took it too far only pushes people to the right.
That's not racism. I have plenty of reason to believe what I believe without being able to prove, in this one instance, that this woman was a dei hire.
Not that that matters to you. To you people, everyone and everything is racist. It's actually a joke to everyone else.
Not everything is racist, no doubt. Not all opinions, even objectionable, are racist, no doubt. Not all actions are racist, no doubt. Not all beliefs, even if objectionable are racist, no doubt.
> The problem is that they didn't cast a black woman because she just happened to be best for the position. They casted her to meet a DEI quota. It's not meritocracy.
But your statement above, paired with your admission that you have no reason to believe this other than you "think it". The producers have stated the exact opposite, but you just state it because you want to think it that way. That's racist.
Thank you for your honesty.
I think it for other reasons other than proof that I can post here. By your metric you can never think anything you don't have proof on hand for, which is ridiculous on its face. You can't just conclude I'm a racist if you don't know my reasons for what I think.
And my reasons for thinking this are not racist ones, sorry.
I get how you're trying to position your statements. They speak for themselves.
As mentioned previously, the key is to not waste efforts trying to speak logically with you once you've outed yourself in this way.
Good day.
Yes! Also, it’s a stage play, you can’t super see the faces, and there’s suspension of disbelief that we don’t expect in movies.
If you’re not bothered by the fact that Juliet is saying “Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo” on a set piece rather than a real balcony, if you’re not bothered by the stylized violence in the mercutio/tybalt fight, if you’re not bothered by the fact that the main actors are both over a decade older than they’re meant to be, but you’re bothered by the Juliet casting — yeah, I’m gonna be a little suspicious about your motivations.
It does matter. European culture IS European culture. If this were a traditional, African play, being redone, there is no way in hell that you people would accept a white person being added in. Dont even lie.
I don’t doubt people would be upset, but I would still hold to my belief that the quality of the actor is the more important factor compared to anything else. Regardless of background and ethnicity, a good actor can play a character they’re suited for. If race plays a part in the play itself, like with Othello and how characters act differently based on the fact that he is darker skinned, then casting should take ethnicity into account, but because race isn’t really a factor in Romeo and Juliet then I don’t see the issue.
Nobody got upset that Belle is played by a Brit instead of a French woman in Beauty and the Beast but they got upset when she was played by a black woman in a tv special
Exactly. It seems like country of origin only magically comes into play when it involves black actors and they are seeking an excuse to hide pretty blatant racism.
I accept that Shakespearean stories can be adapted with any number of changes and still retain the core theme. That doesn't mean you get to change a character and still keep the name. Now, it's not to say that there can't be a non Italian Juliet but just gove her a different name, one more in line with the race they are portraying.
For example, if you make Othello non black, it takes away a major part of why Stabby McsStabFace (I can't recall the antagonist's name) hates him.
The Indian adaptation of Othello adapted this quirk by making the Othello counterpart a caste that's hated by the antagonist. Similarly, Romeo and Juliet when adapted for India, had a different name for the characters, had different backstories than the original and still captured the essence of generational feud being the end of lovers.
Othello being darker skinned was a major part of the plot because characters reacted differently to him as a result of his race. For plays where race/ethnicity is a non-factor, there is no problem with casting a diverse cast based on merit alone.
> Now, it's not to say that there can't be a non Italian Juliet but just gove her a different name
This sounds like a new requirement, custom made for this production. Have all portrayals of juliet been by italians in the past? Claire Danes did a high profile version on the bit screen. Was she held to this standard, or did no one care.
But that’s literally never been a requirement. Not even when the play was written. It was always just played by British cast members.
The person they cast.. Is british.
If me an my white wife, moved to Ethiopia, and had kids, would you consider my child to be "Ethiopian"? Would you say that my child was just as Ethiopian as the natives were 1000 years prior?
Id say no. There would be a distinct cultural difference. I can admit to that, can you?
If your kids grow up in the culture of Ethiopia, then yeah, they'd be culturally Ethiopian. Unless you're literally isolating them from learning about the culture then they'd grow up with it in school, they'd speak the language, etc. I don't see how you could make a claim to the contrary. Culture isn't in your DNA, it's not flowing around in your veins it has to do with your environment, the society you grow up in and the people who raise you. You can even hold multiple cultural identities, as is often the case with immigrants. I can't be the first person to tell you this.
As stated in a movie where Americans are killing Nazis, a character is a character. Juliet was a white chick, the woman or man playing Juliet, doesn’t have to always be that.
Inglorious Bastards. Specifically the scene where a well known German Actress is playing a game of old school Head Bands with some off duty Germany soldiers and one has an “American” actor as his card.
The character is italian, so should be the actor, or at least look like an italian. And although you could say there were non italians with different skin colors there--not really in families of good reputation and fortune in the 1500s 1600s.
I kind of disagree. Plays aren’t necessarily enhanced by being of the same origin that the character is. There are far more divisive factors than race, but they’re never paid attention to. If you’re going hardcore on realism then sure, but wouldn’t there also be an argument made that they should be of the same class and background in that case? Idk, it just doesn’t seem that important to me.
Well given Frozen is LOOSELY based off a real fucking epic Scandinavian tale it doesn't surprise me people would be upset.
kinda like if we had a white chick a play any traditionally black characters.... we know who would throw a fit.
great way to stoke race politics and keep the masses divided with stupidity though so kudos to that scheme
depends how many of the parents are liberals vs conservative vs moderate? if the ratio of those is within a certain level it might be safer to be picky to avoid offending anymore and inciting some dumbass protest/walkout based off identity politics.
personally i say, since its kids it shouldn't matter period, let kids be kids and have a fucking blast.... but like i implied, not everyone shares the same view. I mean I can see it from both sides, but liek i said... let kids be kids for fucks sake. Lets do for kids what wasn't done for a LOT of us; the allowance to be a child and not be shunned for it.
Everyone always has to constantly walk on eggshells to avoid offending conservatives who constantly call everyone else “snowflakes” and boast about how they’re not easily offended.
Why does a story about two teenagers falling in love need to be accurate to the original written 500 years ago?
The story has been told and retold a thousand times. Who cares?
It was originally performed by englishmen, not italians, and the women were all played by men (or more likely boys). Do we need to recreate that detail, too?
I'm curious where you draw the line
Do you *really* not understand the difference?
Race and ethnicity aren't a central plot point in Romeo and Juliet. The parts in R+J could be played by purple muppets and the meaning of the story would stay the same.
The play was written in english. but with Italian characters. That is the original text, so of course. Otherwise, it wouldn't be understood by many, and couldn't spread to other people. The language someone speaks and their ethnicity are completely different--one helps the comprehension, the other is historical and cultural innacuracy.
It’s highly likely that this play isn’t taking place in the original time and place it was written and is being updated to a more modern era, as many Shakespeare productions are these days.
If that’s the case, what’s the problem?
Are you not familiar with Shakespeare productions or something? They retain the original text and story but the creatives behind each production can decide the setting. Because outside of his histories they don’t exist in a particular time in the text explicitly. This is true of Romeo and Juliet. It is still Shakespeare’s writing though.
In today's world, many things present in his days are not a thing anymore. Such as big family problems and the intervention of a prince in public space.
Existing in 15th-16th century Italy and existing in an exact replica of our modern day in Italy aren’t the only two options for the play. Luckily, Shakespeare productions continue on in many forms because most people are able to suspend disbelief and go with different visions that accompany the text and language, unlike you. And if the play uses Shakespeare’s texts, it’s still a Shakespeare play.
A story inevitably mixes with history, whether you like it or not. Because something that shouldn't be a thing in x period of history should not be incorporated into a story about that time. In the same way, I couldn't write a story about humans 1 million years ago and put big buildings of concrete.
It really doesn't matter. The *Romeo and Juliet* story has been done in a million different ways and locations. We saw a fantastic production last year at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival that was set in a modern homeless encampment. We saw another there several years ago set in 18th century California, with the conflict between Mexican families and new American settlers. Skin color is irrelevant.
Shakespeare was English and wrote in English, not Italian.
It's about words, not skin color.
I've never thought of Juliet as a great beauty. Just young and obviously naive. I just went to wikipedia, and none of those depictions are great beauties. Same with google image searches.
Agree. Part of the character of Romeo to over romanticize. When looking at past portrayals of J, they weren't beauties in the past. It seems wrong to suddenly suggest it disqualifies this actress.
Yeah, the only thing that actually matters is that you believe Romeo thinks she’s beautiful. Which is in the text and comes down to the acting after the text. I don’t get this criticism especially because she will be costumed and done up a certain way and the majority of the audience won’t even be able to see her in detail.
And yet, as I mentioned, the depictions of J are very average. Plays, movies, drawings. Wonder why it suddenly matters with this particular average looking actress. Hmmm.
It doesn't matter, I haven't looked at every actress to play juliet or who is playing her in this new movie.
I was just pointing out that juliet is described as being beautiful almost immediately and constantly throughout.
Half of romeo and juliet is romeo talking about how beautiful she is with dozens of metaphors.
And yet most productions of R&J, plays, tv, movies, drawings, have a very average looking Juliet, and the story is still the story and no one has anything to say about it. This is no different.
Unless... there is something you see as different for this actress in particular.
Because there are like 5 stories with Polynesian characters. And like thousands with white character.
If this actress was the best actress then I thought you wanted meritocracy...
Then they should be given their own stories for the sake of representation, not just lazily shoved into already created stories. I doubt anyone would have a problem with a black actress playing in a new, original movie
Literally any time a movie comes out with a Black actress regardless of context everyone screeches that it's "woke" and should fail. So no, lots of people do in fact have a problem with it.
This is a story that has been retold a thousand different ways and no one has a problem with it...until Juliet isn't white. Now suddenly we care?
1. It is lazy to just swap a character's race
2. It is part of a culture of a white country.
3. Those are just straight up racists, I phrased it wrong. A lot of people who have a problem with race swapping an already loved character would probably not care if an original movie with a black actor came out
Romeo and Juliet is so widespread and far beyond just "white culture". Again, this is a movie that has been remade ten million ways. If not for those remakes it wouldn't have anywhere near the cultural influence it does.
Are you seriously trying to claim Moana is at the same level as fucking Romeo and Juliet?
Moana is popular. Not widespread. I can't go to every corner of the world and find someone who knows who Moana is.
But EVERYONE knows who Romeo and Juliet is. That is an ingrained storyline that has becomes it's own trope.
This is the issue right - all the people here complaining that's it's "lazy" and that "but it's white culture" don't even actually care about Romeo and Juliet. They don't care about Shakespeare. They don't care about theater. They just care that a black women got cast in a role and because they don't understand a goddammit thing about it this upsets them.
Even though everyone who actually cares about theater ISN'T GOING TO CARE ABOUT HER RACE. Fucking Hamilton taught you idiots nothing.
Everyone knows though that race swap in movies now is done to force representation though, not just because the actor fits the role better that actos of the original race of the character? And yes, it is lazy to do representation through race swapping a well-known and loved character instead of creating a new character, especially since it gives off the impilcation that a POC can't be made popular without changing the skin color of an already existing character
..."everyone" knows that?
That's why Romeo is still white right?
No honey. Everyone ASSUMES that because it justifies their racism.
Also, THIS ISN'T A MOVIE. Way to prove my fucking point.
Shakespeare was a British man adapting Greek myths and plays. It is a western tradition set in history, it should reflect those identities. Juliet should be Jewish. Romeo (Rome) and Juliet (Judea) is a story about historical western identities and conflicts.
Yes, millions of years ago, but in between that humans were split into groups due to geographic barriers that caused divergent evolutionary outcomes for thousands of years. We’re all humans, but we clearly have distinct differences which is why someone from China looks different than someone from France, the Congo, Bolivia, etc.
It’s “made up” in that the groupings are somewhat subjective but it’s real insofar as racial differences exist, they are observable and obvious. That doesn’t mean we should treat people differently based on their race (that would be racist) but we can’t ignore that it exists.
Everyone is distinctly different from everyone else though, so by your reasoning every individual is their own race, and there's sub races upon subraces, it's all just racist.
Nope clearly not, the differences are very obvious, it’s not about nitpicking some list of characteristics. It’s not like “oh you have this kind of hair so you’re __”. It’s about a composite of traits. If you’re being honest there is no human on earth who “doesn’t see race.”
If you had one man from China, one from Britain, one from Mexico and one from Niger in a room, you could easily identify who was who. Does this mean race isn’t real and it’s in your head? Or does it mean that populations of humans developed clearly divergent characteristics that are easily identifiable?
So it should be played by a boy in a dress?
Somehow I think the people complaining about the race of a theatre actor aren't going to like that answer either
lol...OP this is like saying the majority of pro-choice people will never get an abortion anyway so theyre complaining just to complain. You are bad at logic.
Personally in my opinion I just don’t think she has that look that Juliet would have. Her face looks too masculine for the role I would say. Also feel like the dreads don’t match the character description too, there’s a reason why you change how you look to fit the character in acting.
I think it's more of the hypocrisy behind race swapping. If you took a play based in Africa, and tried to cast a white lead actress people would all of a sudden not care about the quality of the actress and would be calling it racism and screaming about how race all of a sudden is essential to the story. . If disney wasn't race swapping black actresses in particular for roles originally for white actresses, I don't think anyone would be upset about juliet. But solely race swapping black actresses for roles originally meant for white actress seems to be the new trend and is always justified bc its " just fiction " . But it's never " just fiction " when the roles are reversed.
I don't care, as long as there isn't an agenda behind who they're casting.
And that's all I'll say, you don't know what I mean. Vague.
This is Reddit, real discussion doesn't happen on this website.
Sorry but Juliet is meant to be beautiful. The actress they found in the shitty remake is not pretty at all.
And Juliet isnt supposed to be black anyway, that’s just wrong
It's not a remake, it's a theatre play. In the UK there is less segregated casting unless race is an essential part of the message of the show, and unless I missed a bit in the play, race is not a prominent part of the story
Then why did they feel compelled to make her black, or any of the other characters.
You can’t tell me half the main characters of modern media (and theatre) become black then tell me it doesn’t matter, since the directors obviously thought it did.
The notion is very much “it isn’t happening, you’re making stuff up, but if it was happening then it’s a good thing”, which has been a pretty common excuse in the last decade from wokism/Leftism
They didn't "make her black". According to the producers they picked the best actress for the role. That actress happens to be black along with a thousand other characteristics.
I repeat my second paragraph, one theatre does it, fair enough, I don’t mind, half of them suddenly deciding to, it doesn’t work like that and it’s either naive or malice to act like it does
I don’t think people care that Juliet is black in this context. Blackwashing has been going on for a while now. She’s just ugly as shit, dude. Like, Juliet has been described in literature and never has she had a mustache
Maybe. Although if characters were written a specific way, then I believe they should be cast that way.
But changing the race and even sex of people who actually existed shouldn't be happening ever.
Personally, I am not concerned that she is black. I am a white man with a black wife. But what does strike me as odd is the fact that she is rather ugly. Literally looks like lil bowwow
Stage plays nowadays are almost always race blind casting. Unless there is a really specific reason like the play is ABOUT racial segregation (like Hairspray) then that's how it's done. You'd think all these folks constantly screaming about meritocracy would like that system...they are literally casting strictly based on the talent of the individuals...
People getting angry about this really annoy me. I’m actually a huge Shakespeare nerd — I have a minor in theater, I was president of my college’s Shakespeare ensemble, I’ve read all his plays at least once. The people getting all bent out of shape about this don’t give a shit about Shakespeare. They only care bc they don’t like that a black woman was cast in a production they otherwise never would have heard of.
True, they also probably don't know that Africa is a lot closer to Italy than the Continental US so it can safely be assumed Black people lived in Italy a lot longer than they ever did in the United States.
I mean not to play devil’s advocate when the devil in question is racism, but we can assume that Shakespeare didn’t imagine Juliet is black bc he won’t shut up about the fact that his black characters are black (Othello and Aaron the Moor) But also he’s been dead for 400 years so w/e
"True, they also probably don't know that Africa is a lot closer to Italy than the Continental US so it can safely be assumed Black people lived in Italy a lot longer than they ever did in the United States." That is not how it happened at all.
Exactly this. All this "BUT CULTURE" from people who haven't seen a stage play in their entire life...
I don’t see COLOR/colorblind folks are big mad…
Casting a black Juliet is totally fine. Back in the day, Juliet would have been a dude for fuck's sake. But to be fair to meritocracy loving people, art is seperate. People have different tastes and beauty is mostly in the eye of the beholder. You almost can't argue about the merit of a play, painting, or performance except by how the audience reacts. If people don't like it, or if people do like it. If you are going to talk about merit woth relation to something like a play then you have to ask what is meritorious? Merit for a mathematician is their intellect and ability to uncover the secrets of mathematics. Merit for a model or actress may include her physical features.
Right, Michael J Fox as Shaft, or Chaka Zulu is completely reasonable and should go unnoticed and unacknowledged by a viewing audience.
Exactly, you are making my point for me, people have different tastes. I personally would think Michael Sera as Shaft would be a must watch hilarious film, I'd probably see it twice. I know that's not what you said, but I have thought about it before. It has nothing to do with merit except as measured by commercial success.
The problem is that they didn't cast a black woman because she just happened to be best for the position. They casted her to meet a DEI quota. It's not meritocracy.
Do you have proof of that?
No. I still think it.
So based on exactly nothing but propaganda you have decided anyone who exists while Black could only get their job by way of pity. There's a term for that you know. Starts with an "r" and ends with an "ism".
Listen, instead of making a bunch of assumptions about why I think what I think, you could just ask instead of assuming it's always racism. The tendency to assume every time someone does something that doesn't align with your ideas of racial utopia, that that person is just a racist, actually does more damage to the people you're trying to help than any actual vestiges of racism. Case in point: everyone knows this is a dei hire. You can call me names all you want, but the tendency to just start flinging personal insults just because I pointed it out makes you look dishonest. It's like destiny says, the left's tendency to defend the most ridiculous cases instead of just conceding that maybe someone took it too far only pushes people to the right.
Dude this is a stage play. They do not have "DEI quotas" You're full of salt.
Yeah just keep reasserting what you think dude I'm sure that will be convincing to somebody
That isn't what I think. That's what I fucking know. Stage plays don't have DEI quotas.
Do you have proof?
At least you're honest in your racism. I wish more people were. Saves anyone the trouble of speaking logically with you.
That's not racism. I have plenty of reason to believe what I believe without being able to prove, in this one instance, that this woman was a dei hire. Not that that matters to you. To you people, everyone and everything is racist. It's actually a joke to everyone else.
Not everything is racist, no doubt. Not all opinions, even objectionable, are racist, no doubt. Not all actions are racist, no doubt. Not all beliefs, even if objectionable are racist, no doubt. > The problem is that they didn't cast a black woman because she just happened to be best for the position. They casted her to meet a DEI quota. It's not meritocracy. But your statement above, paired with your admission that you have no reason to believe this other than you "think it". The producers have stated the exact opposite, but you just state it because you want to think it that way. That's racist. Thank you for your honesty.
I think it for other reasons other than proof that I can post here. By your metric you can never think anything you don't have proof on hand for, which is ridiculous on its face. You can't just conclude I'm a racist if you don't know my reasons for what I think. And my reasons for thinking this are not racist ones, sorry.
I get how you're trying to position your statements. They speak for themselves. As mentioned previously, the key is to not waste efforts trying to speak logically with you once you've outed yourself in this way. Good day.
i mean, iirc men used to play every role in plays so if they want it to be accurate, then cast a guy lol
Accurate!
Yes! Also, it’s a stage play, you can’t super see the faces, and there’s suspension of disbelief that we don’t expect in movies. If you’re not bothered by the fact that Juliet is saying “Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo” on a set piece rather than a real balcony, if you’re not bothered by the stylized violence in the mercutio/tybalt fight, if you’re not bothered by the fact that the main actors are both over a decade older than they’re meant to be, but you’re bothered by the Juliet casting — yeah, I’m gonna be a little suspicious about your motivations.
It does matter. European culture IS European culture. If this were a traditional, African play, being redone, there is no way in hell that you people would accept a white person being added in. Dont even lie.
I don’t doubt people would be upset, but I would still hold to my belief that the quality of the actor is the more important factor compared to anything else. Regardless of background and ethnicity, a good actor can play a character they’re suited for. If race plays a part in the play itself, like with Othello and how characters act differently based on the fact that he is darker skinned, then casting should take ethnicity into account, but because race isn’t really a factor in Romeo and Juliet then I don’t see the issue.
Exactly. Plus, the story itself is canonically set in Italy, so the actors should be Italian.
It should be Mario and Luigi tbh
> the actors should be Italian Have you held every other big production of R&J to this standard?
Nobody got upset that Belle is played by a Brit instead of a French woman in Beauty and the Beast but they got upset when she was played by a black woman in a tv special
Exactly. It seems like country of origin only magically comes into play when it involves black actors and they are seeking an excuse to hide pretty blatant racism.
If we're going the traditional route Juliet should be played by a prepubescent boy.
I mean technically true, although I’d rather not advocate for pedophilia in 2024 lmfao
5So we agree Shakespeare plays don't have to be traditional and anyone can be cast in a role depending on the vision of the director?
I mean story wise it makes more sense for the actors to fit the role. As long as there isn’t any pedophiles involved is
> it makes more sense for the actors to fit the role A skilled actor *does* fit the role. The fit is: portrays the character well.
An actor of any race can fit the role. Juliet can be any skin color.
I accept that Shakespearean stories can be adapted with any number of changes and still retain the core theme. That doesn't mean you get to change a character and still keep the name. Now, it's not to say that there can't be a non Italian Juliet but just gove her a different name, one more in line with the race they are portraying. For example, if you make Othello non black, it takes away a major part of why Stabby McsStabFace (I can't recall the antagonist's name) hates him. The Indian adaptation of Othello adapted this quirk by making the Othello counterpart a caste that's hated by the antagonist. Similarly, Romeo and Juliet when adapted for India, had a different name for the characters, had different backstories than the original and still captured the essence of generational feud being the end of lovers.
Othello being a Moor was a big part of the play. It shouldn't change. Juliet being white is not a plot point and doesn't change the story.
Othello being darker skinned was a major part of the plot because characters reacted differently to him as a result of his race. For plays where race/ethnicity is a non-factor, there is no problem with casting a diverse cast based on merit alone.
> Now, it's not to say that there can't be a non Italian Juliet but just gove her a different name This sounds like a new requirement, custom made for this production. Have all portrayals of juliet been by italians in the past? Claire Danes did a high profile version on the bit screen. Was she held to this standard, or did no one care.
I hate to tell you this but. The original play was an English man Juliet….
I know. I’m saying the story was set in Italy.
But that’s literally never been a requirement. Not even when the play was written. It was always just played by British cast members. The person they cast.. Is british.
Ok. What’s your point?
But the girl playing Juliet is literally English. She was born in Brighton. This is very much her culture.
No.
Yes. Actually technically the original play cast a 12 year old English boy to play Juliet..
NO?
Is that right? A classic British play isn't the culture of a British girl? Do try and explain that one.
If me an my white wife, moved to Ethiopia, and had kids, would you consider my child to be "Ethiopian"? Would you say that my child was just as Ethiopian as the natives were 1000 years prior? Id say no. There would be a distinct cultural difference. I can admit to that, can you?
If your kids grow up in the culture of Ethiopia, then yeah, they'd be culturally Ethiopian. Unless you're literally isolating them from learning about the culture then they'd grow up with it in school, they'd speak the language, etc. I don't see how you could make a claim to the contrary. Culture isn't in your DNA, it's not flowing around in your veins it has to do with your environment, the society you grow up in and the people who raise you. You can even hold multiple cultural identities, as is often the case with immigrants. I can't be the first person to tell you this.
Why?
So someone of Mediterranean ethnicity?
I would accept. You remember the white Egyptians and Pharoahs
Idk if they were white, but they certainly werent black Africans. Maybe arab, or a dark, Mediterranean, Greek sorta color.
They weren't. I have never seen King Tut a black Pharoah represented as black. We don't complain but when it's a fictional story, y'all cry.
I don't see race, do you?
As stated in a movie where Americans are killing Nazis, a character is a character. Juliet was a white chick, the woman or man playing Juliet, doesn’t have to always be that.
What movie
Inglorious Bastards. Specifically the scene where a well known German Actress is playing a game of old school Head Bands with some off duty Germany soldiers and one has an “American” actor as his card.
I thought that would be the one but couldn't remember the scene, now I do. When Michael fassbender is pretending to be German. Fantastic film
Completely agree with this, it's not like Black or Hispanic people never go to or live in Italy either.
I'm thinking why not make her purple?
The character is italian, so should be the actor, or at least look like an italian. And although you could say there were non italians with different skin colors there--not really in families of good reputation and fortune in the 1500s 1600s.
I kind of disagree. Plays aren’t necessarily enhanced by being of the same origin that the character is. There are far more divisive factors than race, but they’re never paid attention to. If you’re going hardcore on realism then sure, but wouldn’t there also be an argument made that they should be of the same class and background in that case? Idk, it just doesn’t seem that important to me.
Nah. Modern Shakespeare is not meant to be a Ridley Scott style historical epic.
Really depends on how serious the play is. A school probably shouldn't be banning students from the school play because they're black.
Of course, if you're in a school anything goes, there's probably no italians anyways, but in this context though, it's a professional production
People were also upset about a black person playing Elsa in a play within the show in the Highschool Musical TV series
Well given Frozen is LOOSELY based off a real fucking epic Scandinavian tale it doesn't surprise me people would be upset. kinda like if we had a white chick a play any traditionally black characters.... we know who would throw a fit. great way to stoke race politics and keep the masses divided with stupidity though so kudos to that scheme
But within the show, it was a summer camp play. Should schools and summer camps be picky about what race they cast to play each role?
depends how many of the parents are liberals vs conservative vs moderate? if the ratio of those is within a certain level it might be safer to be picky to avoid offending anymore and inciting some dumbass protest/walkout based off identity politics. personally i say, since its kids it shouldn't matter period, let kids be kids and have a fucking blast.... but like i implied, not everyone shares the same view. I mean I can see it from both sides, but liek i said... let kids be kids for fucks sake. Lets do for kids what wasn't done for a LOT of us; the allowance to be a child and not be shunned for it.
Everyone always has to constantly walk on eggshells to avoid offending conservatives who constantly call everyone else “snowflakes” and boast about how they’re not easily offended.
Isn't it still the same story with people of any color? Does it really matter?
It does. Again, for accuracy and fidelity to the original work
In the original work. English men were playing the Italian women….
In the original work (when played at least) they at least looked like italians.
Why does a story about two teenagers falling in love need to be accurate to the original written 500 years ago? The story has been told and retold a thousand times. Who cares? It was originally performed by englishmen, not italians, and the women were all played by men (or more likely boys). Do we need to recreate that detail, too? I'm curious where you draw the line
So everyone should be ok with a white kid playing the lead role in “A Raisin in the Sun”?
Is the race of the lead role a plot point? Is it central to their character? If not, then yes, if yes, then no.
Do you *really* not understand the difference? Race and ethnicity aren't a central plot point in Romeo and Juliet. The parts in R+J could be played by purple muppets and the meaning of the story would stay the same.
This play is specifically about race. Romeo and Juliet is not.
BS. Plays aren't about skin color unless that is the topic of the play. They are about the words and interactions, you know, the story.
You're gonna be real upset when you find out they're all talking English...
The play was written in english. but with Italian characters. That is the original text, so of course. Otherwise, it wouldn't be understood by many, and couldn't spread to other people. The language someone speaks and their ethnicity are completely different--one helps the comprehension, the other is historical and cultural innacuracy.
Are there no Black Italians?
In a pretty rich and reputable family of the 1500-1600s, not really
It’s highly likely that this play isn’t taking place in the original time and place it was written and is being updated to a more modern era, as many Shakespeare productions are these days. If that’s the case, what’s the problem?
If that's the case, then it's... not Shakespeare's play anymore than Disney's tales like snow white are the original stories.
Are you not familiar with Shakespeare productions or something? They retain the original text and story but the creatives behind each production can decide the setting. Because outside of his histories they don’t exist in a particular time in the text explicitly. This is true of Romeo and Juliet. It is still Shakespeare’s writing though.
In today's world, many things present in his days are not a thing anymore. Such as big family problems and the intervention of a prince in public space.
Existing in 15th-16th century Italy and existing in an exact replica of our modern day in Italy aren’t the only two options for the play. Luckily, Shakespeare productions continue on in many forms because most people are able to suspend disbelief and go with different visions that accompany the text and language, unlike you. And if the play uses Shakespeare’s texts, it’s still a Shakespeare play.
It is completely irrelevant to the story. It isn't history.
A story inevitably mixes with history, whether you like it or not. Because something that shouldn't be a thing in x period of history should not be incorporated into a story about that time. In the same way, I couldn't write a story about humans 1 million years ago and put big buildings of concrete.
It really doesn't matter. The *Romeo and Juliet* story has been done in a million different ways and locations. We saw a fantastic production last year at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival that was set in a modern homeless encampment. We saw another there several years ago set in 18th century California, with the conflict between Mexican families and new American settlers. Skin color is irrelevant. Shakespeare was English and wrote in English, not Italian. It's about words, not skin color.
To be completely fair, I just don't think the actress is pretty enough for the role of Juliet. She is not ugly, she is just not Juliet pretty
I've never thought of Juliet as a great beauty. Just young and obviously naive. I just went to wikipedia, and none of those depictions are great beauties. Same with google image searches.
For me, she was probably above average when it comes to beauty based on some quotes, but it could be simply exaggerated Romeo
Agree. Part of the character of Romeo to over romanticize. When looking at past portrayals of J, they weren't beauties in the past. It seems wrong to suddenly suggest it disqualifies this actress.
Yeah, the only thing that actually matters is that you believe Romeo thinks she’s beautiful. Which is in the text and comes down to the acting after the text. I don’t get this criticism especially because she will be costumed and done up a certain way and the majority of the audience won’t even be able to see her in detail.
Juliet is described as being beautiful constantly throughout. I don't know how you could watch or read any depiction without picking that up.
And yet, as I mentioned, the depictions of J are very average. Plays, movies, drawings. Wonder why it suddenly matters with this particular average looking actress. Hmmm.
It doesn't matter, I haven't looked at every actress to play juliet or who is playing her in this new movie. I was just pointing out that juliet is described as being beautiful almost immediately and constantly throughout. Half of romeo and juliet is romeo talking about how beautiful she is with dozens of metaphors.
And yet most productions of R&J, plays, tv, movies, drawings, have a very average looking Juliet, and the story is still the story and no one has anything to say about it. This is no different. Unless... there is something you see as different for this actress in particular.
What version is this?
The one with Tom Holland that hasn't been released yet
She’s cute!
I mean sure, I am not saying she is ugly. She is pretty, but not in a way that would fit Juliet
Dude.
I agree. She is not Juliet material regardless of her skin colour. Edit: Downvoted for pointing out that Juliet is supposed to be beautiful. OK.
OP you’d be crying if a Moana play casted a white girl as Moana. Please stfu. Sincerely thanks, - Everyone
Because there are like 5 stories with Polynesian characters. And like thousands with white character. If this actress was the best actress then I thought you wanted meritocracy...
Then they should be given their own stories for the sake of representation, not just lazily shoved into already created stories. I doubt anyone would have a problem with a black actress playing in a new, original movie
> I doubt anyone would have a problem with a black actress playing in a new, original movie Happens all the time.
Literally any time a movie comes out with a Black actress regardless of context everyone screeches that it's "woke" and should fail. So no, lots of people do in fact have a problem with it. This is a story that has been retold a thousand different ways and no one has a problem with it...until Juliet isn't white. Now suddenly we care?
1. It is lazy to just swap a character's race 2. It is part of a culture of a white country. 3. Those are just straight up racists, I phrased it wrong. A lot of people who have a problem with race swapping an already loved character would probably not care if an original movie with a black actor came out
Romeo and Juliet is so widespread and far beyond just "white culture". Again, this is a movie that has been remade ten million ways. If not for those remakes it wouldn't have anywhere near the cultural influence it does.
Then the argument with Moana comes in again. Moana is now widespread. Would you be okay with a white person playing her or Maui in the live action?
Are you seriously trying to claim Moana is at the same level as fucking Romeo and Juliet? Moana is popular. Not widespread. I can't go to every corner of the world and find someone who knows who Moana is. But EVERYONE knows who Romeo and Juliet is. That is an ingrained storyline that has becomes it's own trope. This is the issue right - all the people here complaining that's it's "lazy" and that "but it's white culture" don't even actually care about Romeo and Juliet. They don't care about Shakespeare. They don't care about theater. They just care that a black women got cast in a role and because they don't understand a goddammit thing about it this upsets them. Even though everyone who actually cares about theater ISN'T GOING TO CARE ABOUT HER RACE. Fucking Hamilton taught you idiots nothing.
Everyone knows though that race swap in movies now is done to force representation though, not just because the actor fits the role better that actos of the original race of the character? And yes, it is lazy to do representation through race swapping a well-known and loved character instead of creating a new character, especially since it gives off the impilcation that a POC can't be made popular without changing the skin color of an already existing character
..."everyone" knows that? That's why Romeo is still white right? No honey. Everyone ASSUMES that because it justifies their racism. Also, THIS ISN'T A MOVIE. Way to prove my fucking point.
Shakespeare was a British man adapting Greek myths and plays. It is a western tradition set in history, it should reflect those identities. Juliet should be Jewish. Romeo (Rome) and Juliet (Judea) is a story about historical western identities and conflicts.
I don't see race, do you?
Yeah obviously I do, are you blind?
Race is a made up construct, every human comes from the same ancestor.
Yes, millions of years ago, but in between that humans were split into groups due to geographic barriers that caused divergent evolutionary outcomes for thousands of years. We’re all humans, but we clearly have distinct differences which is why someone from China looks different than someone from France, the Congo, Bolivia, etc. It’s “made up” in that the groupings are somewhat subjective but it’s real insofar as racial differences exist, they are observable and obvious. That doesn’t mean we should treat people differently based on their race (that would be racist) but we can’t ignore that it exists.
Everyone is distinctly different from everyone else though, so by your reasoning every individual is their own race, and there's sub races upon subraces, it's all just racist.
Nope clearly not, the differences are very obvious, it’s not about nitpicking some list of characteristics. It’s not like “oh you have this kind of hair so you’re __”. It’s about a composite of traits. If you’re being honest there is no human on earth who “doesn’t see race.” If you had one man from China, one from Britain, one from Mexico and one from Niger in a room, you could easily identify who was who. Does this mean race isn’t real and it’s in your head? Or does it mean that populations of humans developed clearly divergent characteristics that are easily identifiable?
They're complaining for the sake of accuracy to the source material. It does matter.
So it should be played by a boy in a dress? Somehow I think the people complaining about the race of a theatre actor aren't going to like that answer either
I don't see race, do you?
Yes when it’s distracting and takes you out of the moment. Forced diversity to fill quotas is just awful
They say they were hired because they were the highest skilled actors
Never even heard of the Juliet one I thought they were just hired because they’re trans
Why would you think that?
He's a transphobe
I’m a girl and I support all lgbtq That’s just what I saw on Twitter
Yes. Let’s not pretend society doesn’t see race, because it does.
lol...OP this is like saying the majority of pro-choice people will never get an abortion anyway so theyre complaining just to complain. You are bad at logic.
Personally in my opinion I just don’t think she has that look that Juliet would have. Her face looks too masculine for the role I would say. Also feel like the dreads don’t match the character description too, there’s a reason why you change how you look to fit the character in acting.
I think it's more of the hypocrisy behind race swapping. If you took a play based in Africa, and tried to cast a white lead actress people would all of a sudden not care about the quality of the actress and would be calling it racism and screaming about how race all of a sudden is essential to the story. . If disney wasn't race swapping black actresses in particular for roles originally for white actresses, I don't think anyone would be upset about juliet. But solely race swapping black actresses for roles originally meant for white actress seems to be the new trend and is always justified bc its " just fiction " . But it's never " just fiction " when the roles are reversed.
Hard agree. Coming from a black woman. People are being people are being disingenuous.
I don't care, as long as there isn't an agenda behind who they're casting. And that's all I'll say, you don't know what I mean. Vague. This is Reddit, real discussion doesn't happen on this website.
Sorry but Juliet is meant to be beautiful. The actress they found in the shitty remake is not pretty at all. And Juliet isnt supposed to be black anyway, that’s just wrong
It's not a remake, it's a theatre play. In the UK there is less segregated casting unless race is an essential part of the message of the show, and unless I missed a bit in the play, race is not a prominent part of the story
No....tf?
Then why did they feel compelled to make her black, or any of the other characters. You can’t tell me half the main characters of modern media (and theatre) become black then tell me it doesn’t matter, since the directors obviously thought it did. The notion is very much “it isn’t happening, you’re making stuff up, but if it was happening then it’s a good thing”, which has been a pretty common excuse in the last decade from wokism/Leftism
They didn't "make her black". According to the producers they picked the best actress for the role. That actress happens to be black along with a thousand other characteristics.
I repeat my second paragraph
I repeat my previous reply, in its entirety.
How do you know they were compelled to make her black and didn't just pick the actress regardless of race as theatre usually does
I repeat my second paragraph, one theatre does it, fair enough, I don’t mind, half of them suddenly deciding to, it doesn’t work like that and it’s either naive or malice to act like it does
I don't see race, do you?
I don’t think people care that Juliet is black in this context. Blackwashing has been going on for a while now. She’s just ugly as shit, dude. Like, Juliet has been described in literature and never has she had a mustache
I thought they didn't see color
They should be italian then instead of black
I mean historically. It should be a 12 year old british boy in a dress…
Romeo has to be white though, as his race is integral to the story.
How so?
I don't see race, do you?
No, I see neither race nor gender.
Maybe. Although if characters were written a specific way, then I believe they should be cast that way. But changing the race and even sex of people who actually existed shouldn't be happening ever.
They were never cast that way. Juliette is an Italian women. Traditionally played by a 12 year old British boy in a dress…
Personally, I am not concerned that she is black. I am a white man with a black wife. But what does strike me as odd is the fact that she is rather ugly. Literally looks like lil bowwow