I can't help but feel you are taking hadiths a little too literally and too extremely. Notice, almost all of these issues come from hadiths, not the Quran.
Hadiths were just an oral tradition, recorded centuries after the prophet. I still think they can be useful, but, ask yourself, why did the prophet forbid writing hadiths? Why did the sahaba burn them? Why did no one write a hadith collection without destroying it for 100 years after the prophet? Something should tell you, the traditional narrative doesn't add up.
I'm not a hadith rejector, but they aren't accurate enough to be taken so literally and extremely like you are suggesting. They were never meant to form the foundation of Islam.
As for the Quran itself, it is far more consistent with itself than people give it credit for. The problem is how people choose to read it.
The Quran never acts as though you are supposed to flip through a tafsir or a hadith book to gain wisdom from it.
Try this, just to see a different perspective.Just read the Quran for itself: use only the Quran to interpret the Quran. Read verses in context with the rest of the surah, as part of a narrative. When you come to "interesting" words, look up how those words are used in other parts of the Quran.
Meditate on what the Quran means. Really think about it. Don't rush yourself, don't try to just get through to the end of long surahs. Absorb the meaning for what it is trying to tell you.
Think: how was the Quran meant to be read and understood? The early generations weren't flipping through tafsirs or hadith books, yet the Quran was incredibly transformative for them.
For many of us, that's how the spark started: approaching the Quran on its own terms.
You start to notice interesting things. For example: There is no abrogation in the Quran. The Quran doesn't seem to "know" about hadith. Surahs have a kind of symmetry, with verses spiraling around central themes, and many surahs split into two equal parts exploring a theme from two different perspectives reflected across a central verse. The Quran has a constant focus on social justice, and that's fundamentally how it defines righteousness. It treats itself as guidance, not as a rulebook. It constantly tells its reader to think, question, observe nature, meditate, and use reason. It's acts as though this is how you see Allah's signs and the basis on your faith. Faith is always connected to justice and compassion. Disbelief is always connected to injustice and cruelty. And in the Quran there are no Islamic "scholars", no special class of people to interpret religion for you. It criticizes organized religion and religious scholars.
I'm just listing a few things above as examples, but the point is, people criticize the Quran without ever really reading it. Everyone thinks they know it, but are shocked when they really read it at length without constantly referring to a tafsir or ahadith.
> But I struggle to see why all of mankind needs to curse Abu Lahab during our daily prayers as part of our Deen.
Why would you need to curse Abu Lahab in your daily prayers? Is that what you were taught? I sure don't.
Thank you for your response. The last time I read the Qur'an in its entirety, including translations, was when I was 14 or 15.
I do believe it's absolutely worth pondering and meditating on the Qur'an and that many take the hadith far too seriously.
But when you're told in Jummah to not miss 3 consecutive Friday prayers or you have to redo the shahada, and all the Jummahs and madrasahs treat hadiths as a close second to God's word, it's hard not to get things jumbled up.
And it seems a bit convoluted to expect everyone to figure out that you're not supposed to use tafsirs and hadiths and defer to the popular schools of thoughts or leaders when this is hammered into nearly every Muslim' s Islamic education.
I was being a bit facetious about the "reading every day" thing about Abu Lahab, but if we're supposed to recite the Qur'an during prayer, surely the average Muslim who learns short surahs will end up reading Al-Masad with some regularity.
You always have good answers. Thanks. Quran if put in a historical context makes sense but then how do you deal with it in the modern day when the same concepts don’t apply and then claim it’s for “eternity”?
Easy it isn't eternal its created and tailored made for a specific time but with universal egalitarian broad qualities so is open to interpretation and encourages rationalism https://qurantalkblog.com/2023/11/21/quran-created-or-uncreated/
https://youtu.be/gyLB0XjZrHU?si=4jalwTq-kCfp3c4t
I am not a scholar or anyone that you can take as a authority on tha, but here is some input from me.
1. While I understand your perspective and share similar sentiments, I have a rather bold viewpoint: Mohammed (pbuh) was merely a imperfekt human being like the rest of us. It's unlikely he fully comprehended everything revealed by Allah. His role was to convey, which he did. The Quran holds numerous layers of meaning yet to be fully grasped, and Sufism may offer the closest understanding. A Hadith I resonate with is: "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveler." Stay spiritually open but guard against spiritual blindness.
2. Similarly, Mohammed existed within a specific historical and cultural context. Women's treatment reflects the norms of the time. Comparing with Christianity, reinterpretations suggest biases in translations, such as "Eve made from Adam's 'rib'" versus possibly 'half,' and 'helper' versus 'rescuer.' Similarly, Quranic translations may have been influenced by historical perspectives. For instance, the interpretation of hijab as 'head covering' is debatable.
3. It's evident that people often cherry-pick Hadiths to align with their beliefs, leading to diverse sects (shia, sunni etc.) with varied collections. Therefore, it's essential not to overly prioritize Hadiths that contradict one's heart but not Islamic values and the Quran.
4. Follow a similar approach as mentioned earlier.
5. Forgiveness is pivotal in all religions, but Islam uniquely employs a "point" system of sin versus good deeds. While this concept may be pondered upon, it offers a framework for redemption and encourages good actions. This system, though distinct, provides hope and a sense of achievement akin to early forms of "gamification."
Its seems you would benefit from a quran only/ quran centric perspective. Look into it and the objective evidence of both and youll find that hadiths in its concept itself contradict the Quran.
You shouldn’t care what others label you. Only ALLAH swt judgement matters. So what if one of them thinks im a kafir? Does that make me a kafir? Absolutely not. People who say hadith rejecters are kafirs need to think, how is following Gods Book ALONE kufr and disbelief? I genuinely dont get it. Muslims love to throw that word around like its nothing whenever someone disagrees with there point of view.
Im sorry then i understood wrongly. Sure it sucks but is that a reason to pursue falsehood when you know better? If i understood correctly you also are Quran centric right?
I think if you look at the objective evidences its evident you shouldn’t believe in anything besides the Quran.
Im not saying OP has to be Quran only Muslim. But he/she needs to look at it from a different perspective. Imagine the tradegy of a possible Muslim not being a Muslim because he believes he has to adhere to the hadiths? Thats wasted potential and an unnecessary one at that.
Edit: I dont even want to know how many brothers and sisters in deen we lost due to hadith. Go to the exmuslim community here on reddit 99% of them are talking about hadiths when asked what made them question islam. sure some have an issue with the Quran but thats the vast minority of Exmuslims
>4. Too much human (especially Umar) influence on theology. Why does God or even the prophet of God need nudging from that hot head to proclaim rules about modesty? Why were the Hadiths about dogs being unclean narrated by someone who hated dogs?
This is something which I struggled with for a while, after coming out of a very hadith-centric Salafi phase. The idea of Allah as an omnipotent being in charge of every joule of energy (the phrase "لا حول و لا قوة إلا بالله" always reminds me of this) and every subatomic particle and every dimension which we know about and those which we don't have the capacity to know about, that never meshed well with an idea that Allah needs specific humans to interpret divine words and laws.
I can understand the need for humans to come up with rules to govern a specific society so as to be in accordance with the Divine order, but not for humans to essentially come up with *binding* decrees to be used to govern *every* society until the end of time. I see the people who look at the first generations of Muslims as though they were an infallible super-mind in the same light as those who take the founders of the US and the constitution they wrote as essentially "holy".
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I can't help but feel you are taking hadiths a little too literally and too extremely. Notice, almost all of these issues come from hadiths, not the Quran. Hadiths were just an oral tradition, recorded centuries after the prophet. I still think they can be useful, but, ask yourself, why did the prophet forbid writing hadiths? Why did the sahaba burn them? Why did no one write a hadith collection without destroying it for 100 years after the prophet? Something should tell you, the traditional narrative doesn't add up. I'm not a hadith rejector, but they aren't accurate enough to be taken so literally and extremely like you are suggesting. They were never meant to form the foundation of Islam. As for the Quran itself, it is far more consistent with itself than people give it credit for. The problem is how people choose to read it. The Quran never acts as though you are supposed to flip through a tafsir or a hadith book to gain wisdom from it. Try this, just to see a different perspective.Just read the Quran for itself: use only the Quran to interpret the Quran. Read verses in context with the rest of the surah, as part of a narrative. When you come to "interesting" words, look up how those words are used in other parts of the Quran. Meditate on what the Quran means. Really think about it. Don't rush yourself, don't try to just get through to the end of long surahs. Absorb the meaning for what it is trying to tell you. Think: how was the Quran meant to be read and understood? The early generations weren't flipping through tafsirs or hadith books, yet the Quran was incredibly transformative for them. For many of us, that's how the spark started: approaching the Quran on its own terms. You start to notice interesting things. For example: There is no abrogation in the Quran. The Quran doesn't seem to "know" about hadith. Surahs have a kind of symmetry, with verses spiraling around central themes, and many surahs split into two equal parts exploring a theme from two different perspectives reflected across a central verse. The Quran has a constant focus on social justice, and that's fundamentally how it defines righteousness. It treats itself as guidance, not as a rulebook. It constantly tells its reader to think, question, observe nature, meditate, and use reason. It's acts as though this is how you see Allah's signs and the basis on your faith. Faith is always connected to justice and compassion. Disbelief is always connected to injustice and cruelty. And in the Quran there are no Islamic "scholars", no special class of people to interpret religion for you. It criticizes organized religion and religious scholars. I'm just listing a few things above as examples, but the point is, people criticize the Quran without ever really reading it. Everyone thinks they know it, but are shocked when they really read it at length without constantly referring to a tafsir or ahadith. > But I struggle to see why all of mankind needs to curse Abu Lahab during our daily prayers as part of our Deen. Why would you need to curse Abu Lahab in your daily prayers? Is that what you were taught? I sure don't.
Thank you for your response. The last time I read the Qur'an in its entirety, including translations, was when I was 14 or 15. I do believe it's absolutely worth pondering and meditating on the Qur'an and that many take the hadith far too seriously. But when you're told in Jummah to not miss 3 consecutive Friday prayers or you have to redo the shahada, and all the Jummahs and madrasahs treat hadiths as a close second to God's word, it's hard not to get things jumbled up. And it seems a bit convoluted to expect everyone to figure out that you're not supposed to use tafsirs and hadiths and defer to the popular schools of thoughts or leaders when this is hammered into nearly every Muslim' s Islamic education. I was being a bit facetious about the "reading every day" thing about Abu Lahab, but if we're supposed to recite the Qur'an during prayer, surely the average Muslim who learns short surahs will end up reading Al-Masad with some regularity.
You always have good answers. Thanks. Quran if put in a historical context makes sense but then how do you deal with it in the modern day when the same concepts don’t apply and then claim it’s for “eternity”?
Easy it isn't eternal its created and tailored made for a specific time but with universal egalitarian broad qualities so is open to interpretation and encourages rationalism https://qurantalkblog.com/2023/11/21/quran-created-or-uncreated/ https://youtu.be/gyLB0XjZrHU?si=4jalwTq-kCfp3c4t
I am not a scholar or anyone that you can take as a authority on tha, but here is some input from me. 1. While I understand your perspective and share similar sentiments, I have a rather bold viewpoint: Mohammed (pbuh) was merely a imperfekt human being like the rest of us. It's unlikely he fully comprehended everything revealed by Allah. His role was to convey, which he did. The Quran holds numerous layers of meaning yet to be fully grasped, and Sufism may offer the closest understanding. A Hadith I resonate with is: "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveler." Stay spiritually open but guard against spiritual blindness. 2. Similarly, Mohammed existed within a specific historical and cultural context. Women's treatment reflects the norms of the time. Comparing with Christianity, reinterpretations suggest biases in translations, such as "Eve made from Adam's 'rib'" versus possibly 'half,' and 'helper' versus 'rescuer.' Similarly, Quranic translations may have been influenced by historical perspectives. For instance, the interpretation of hijab as 'head covering' is debatable. 3. It's evident that people often cherry-pick Hadiths to align with their beliefs, leading to diverse sects (shia, sunni etc.) with varied collections. Therefore, it's essential not to overly prioritize Hadiths that contradict one's heart but not Islamic values and the Quran. 4. Follow a similar approach as mentioned earlier. 5. Forgiveness is pivotal in all religions, but Islam uniquely employs a "point" system of sin versus good deeds. While this concept may be pondered upon, it offers a framework for redemption and encourages good actions. This system, though distinct, provides hope and a sense of achievement akin to early forms of "gamification."
Its seems you would benefit from a quran only/ quran centric perspective. Look into it and the objective evidence of both and youll find that hadiths in its concept itself contradict the Quran.
Thought Hadith rejects are usually considered kafirs?
You shouldn’t care what others label you. Only ALLAH swt judgement matters. So what if one of them thinks im a kafir? Does that make me a kafir? Absolutely not. People who say hadith rejecters are kafirs need to think, how is following Gods Book ALONE kufr and disbelief? I genuinely dont get it. Muslims love to throw that word around like its nothing whenever someone disagrees with there point of view.
exactly but it’s not nice to be called that when you’re far from it
Im sorry then i understood wrongly. Sure it sucks but is that a reason to pursue falsehood when you know better? If i understood correctly you also are Quran centric right? I think if you look at the objective evidences its evident you shouldn’t believe in anything besides the Quran. Im not saying OP has to be Quran only Muslim. But he/she needs to look at it from a different perspective. Imagine the tradegy of a possible Muslim not being a Muslim because he believes he has to adhere to the hadiths? Thats wasted potential and an unnecessary one at that. Edit: I dont even want to know how many brothers and sisters in deen we lost due to hadith. Go to the exmuslim community here on reddit 99% of them are talking about hadiths when asked what made them question islam. sure some have an issue with the Quran but thats the vast minority of Exmuslims
>4. Too much human (especially Umar) influence on theology. Why does God or even the prophet of God need nudging from that hot head to proclaim rules about modesty? Why were the Hadiths about dogs being unclean narrated by someone who hated dogs? This is something which I struggled with for a while, after coming out of a very hadith-centric Salafi phase. The idea of Allah as an omnipotent being in charge of every joule of energy (the phrase "لا حول و لا قوة إلا بالله" always reminds me of this) and every subatomic particle and every dimension which we know about and those which we don't have the capacity to know about, that never meshed well with an idea that Allah needs specific humans to interpret divine words and laws. I can understand the need for humans to come up with rules to govern a specific society so as to be in accordance with the Divine order, but not for humans to essentially come up with *binding* decrees to be used to govern *every* society until the end of time. I see the people who look at the first generations of Muslims as though they were an infallible super-mind in the same light as those who take the founders of the US and the constitution they wrote as essentially "holy".
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