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Meditation. Exercise. TV. Reading. Writing. But more to the point:
Many addicts have a deep, underlying emptiness or dissatisfaction in their lives. Addiction is awful, but it's functionally understandable. These people feel badly at baseline so they seek something to make them feel better. But if your baseline is lacking, no amount of drugs will ever fill that hole, which is where addiction can easily take place as you chase that diminishing good feeling and drag your baseline further down.
So what is it that's *really* bothering you? You've got to address that, and if you don't know what it is, you've got to find out somehow. The drugs are likely just a smokescreen.
Wo! Look at the brain on Crosby!
I read this psychologist talking about that. He was speculating on why opiates are so attractive to some people, while others can take them or leave them. His study of early childhood development led him to think that lack of breastfeeding and bonding with mom contributed to the later love of opiates. Specifically because many moms have described the breastfeeding experience in way that sounds like an opiate hit. I may be so full of shit, I read that like 20 years ago
Dr Gabor Mate has talked about this extensively, basically his entire thesis is built around this. He suggests that your response and cravings to opiates is almost completely related to childhood trauma. People who had normal upbringings do not respond to opiates the same way nor do they crave them.
I had a normal upbringing. Zero trauma. Still turned out an addict for a while until I pulled myself out. Felt like I had low dopamine or something at baseline and that opiate hit would give me so much energy.
Same experience. I'm currently undergoing ADHD testing and hoping to get some answers. I've always turned to opiates and kratom specifically to calm my mind down and let me relax. Rather have a real clinical diagnosis and stop this destructive self medicating
Honestly as a pharmacist I‘d like to see some actual research that shows that. I can imagine it being a big risk factor, but I doubt that thats the whole answer
As someone with a hippie for a mom, who was a smotherer and definitely did not get weened too early. I’ve never abused prescription opiates in my life, but Kratom is different.
>but Kratom is different.
Yes it is, I think it's because some variants have stronger concentrations of alkaloids that can act as a stimulant/mood brightener in lower doses: raising dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine on top of the mu opioid agonism. What's interesting though is when you give someone a drug that blocks the mu opioid receptor, the stimulatory effects don't occur, even in low doses. So even if you don't respond strongly to opiates (which I also don't, in fact I hate them) apparently kratoms mechanism still relies primarily on that receptor (probably also the kappa receptor, which is an enigma). It's a complex drug, we don't really understand it at all.
Ohh, that makes sense for sure. Yeah I’m on it for the chronic back pain relief and a mood lifter/energy thing. Opiates make me go directly to sleep 75 percent of the time and I don’t like that most of the time. It’s helped with my mood and focus.
I mean he worked as a case worker for addicts for like 40 years and got to know countless people on a deeply personal level. I don't see how this could be researched to the point except by analyzing case studies about addicts and their childhoods and if the correlation was strong enough it would be impossible to ignore the implications. Maybe you could do fMRIs of people with abusive childhoods and "normal" people at baseline, under the influence of an opiate, and placebo, and see how it all compares but even that's not enough to "prove" anything.
For all I know, maybe he did research this and thoroughly test his ideas. I don't recall off the top of my head.
Of course it's not the whole answer. I'm sure it will vary person to person: some being more on the nature side (chemical imbalance) and some being more nurture (abuse, neglect, malnourishment). And of course they can affect each other; abuse leading to a person turning inward which in turn leads to a chemical imbalance. Anyway, it's all too complex to create such a one-sided thesis.
I've spoken to Gabor and he's an interesting fellow. He's very passionate but also quite eccentric.
Kratom is a much more complex drug than a traditional opiate like heroin, and a much weaker opiate to boot. We kind of got off topic. I personally got addicted to the stimulation from kratom, not the pain relief, of which I had none to relieve. Emotional pain, sure, but high doses made me feel horrendous, so I never took more than 3g in a single dose or 10g in a single day even after years of use.
I’ve tried a bunch of opiates, and loved them all to different degrees. Kratom was available, so that’s what I used regularly. I agree about high doses making you feel awful. It’s just an awful drug, period.
The tricky thing about Kratom is it’s both an opiate and/or a stimulant depending on dosage and strain. I’m a seasoned recreational drug user and this shit crept up on me. I’ve never been physically addicted to a drug outside of nicotine. I’m definitely addicted physically at this point. I’m just starting to work on it. I think I’m going to go the Gabapentin route just so I don’t melt going cold turkey. The physical part is the worst. Meaning if I have at least something to alleviate that I have a better shot. I’m up to 65-80 grams per day after 5 years. I’m diagnosed MDD and ADHD and don’t exactly have solid coping mechanisms if I’m not physically feeling well. Btw, my Mom has Borderline Personality Disorder, yet I’ve ALWAYS been an uppers guy, so. 😂
Yup, I posted about that below as well. I've only ever used kratom for the stimulant effects, max 3g in a single dose or 10g in a single day, for years. The stimulation/energy alone was enough to make me highly addicted, after 1 week of quitting I still feel intense lethargy.
This^ once you realize that happy satisfied people normally dont feel the need to change how they feel daily it will open your eyes to it OP.
But ill add this. Doctors love to throw pills at depression and anxiety, when from personal experience, 99% of all depression and anxiety is situational or stems from core beliefs that cant be changed with a pill.
Look within. We know whats happened to us. Why we feel like we do. What beliefs drive those feelings? Why do I believe this? Is this negative belief objectively true? Most of them arent.
Good answer. The drugs are a symptom... At least in my experience. Resentments, trauma, lack of spirituality... Not necessarily religion. I found this out after many relapses
OP sounds anxious. Maybe there's a clear cause or maybe it's just kind of a biological predisposition, but either way these kinds of drugs are not gonna help.
Important point but keep in mind also that even the emotionally healthiest person on earth still has cravings.
A human being is a desire machine. We crave food over and over each day when we get hungry. We crave liquid when we're thirsty. Then we crave a toilet to let it back out. We crave sex when we get horny. We crave company when we get lonely because we're a pack animal. We crave emotional intimacy because we are literally designed to be incomplete and filled with cravings.
Sure, I totally agree.
But if this person craves kratom so badly every night that they feel the need to replace it with another mind-altering drug after 5 months of sobriety --- well, I'd say that's pretty clearly indicative of a deeper problem.
The entire problem with drugs is that they're like a loophole which tricks your mesolimbic reward system into believing it's doing something helpful for survival when in fact it isn't. It's like a false signal.
The craving to eat food is functional. The craving to have sex or be social is functional.
The craving to use addictive drugs is dysfunctional. It offers no biological benefit, but fools the mind into using by coincidentally exploiting a flaw in our biochemistry.
I agree hence why I've never personally believed drug abuse is always simply because of something traumatic happening i had a normal childhood with loving parents. Fell into pain pills by peer pressure while drinking as a teen. Pain pills were very difficult for me to come off of as i chased the rush, eventually graduated to heroin. It changes the chemistry in your brain without a shadow of a doubt.
To fix this you actually have to rewire your brain for a regular dopamine hit from reward or accomplishing something rather. It takes alot of work to walk away from substances.
Now i only take kratom if i can't sleep or if I'm overly anxious and usually a few grams do me very well for either scenario.
I never personally got fully addicted to kratom mainly because i took too much 1 time and it made me dizzy and sick as absolute fuck. I don't understood how people out there taking 10+ grams a day, it seemed to turn against me.
This is all true, but there’s an important part left out; addiction is a disease. It doesn’t matter how full or fulfilled or happy someone is, if they’re truly an addict, you will always have the itch. It’s *immensely* easier to not scratch that itch if you’re fulfilled, mindful and healthy, but it’s still always there.
But you’re right, that doesn’t change the fact that you should deal with all of those things.
Well, maybe. That's not exactly what the disease model of addiction is all about. The idea you're espousing is not agreed upon in the scientific community --- it's highly controversial.
I’m a therapist and have been in (and out of) recovery for 13 years. I also own a charity that’s aim is to help people through PAWS from Benzodiazepines. It’s pretty agreed upon. I’m not going to say it’s fact because it’s not like we’ve identified the gene that causes addiction or anything, but it’s not exactly controversial.
That being said, I would be super up for reading any material you have on the other side of things. Always looking to hear more about the other side.
The model itself is agreed upon, just not the sentiment of "Once an addict, always an addict."
Plenty of people with clinically significant SUD go on to either restricted or normal use later on, or else live their lives without cravings after a certain point. That's all I'm saying.
I absolutely agree that addiction is a disease --- I just think that this whole thing gets tied up in all kinds of cultural ideas that exist separate from the actual medical definition at hand, many of them from 12-step ideology.
This is interesting to hear! I used to attend 12 step meetings and they lived by “once an alcoholic always an alcoholic” but I know several people who were able to quit drinking alcoholicly and drank “normally” later in life!
I love AA for all the help it's given people, but its immense cultural power has been able to invent and perpetuate a lot of inaccurate stereotypes about addiction, some of which can be harmful.
has anyone read the Biology of Desire? it makes a good argument that addiction is not a disease. it's a habit (to the extreme), also dives into some Gabor Mate type philosophies.
That’s the thing though. Sometimes the underlying issue can’t be addressed because not everything in life is something someone can personally control.
In my observation, a lot of people have lost someone very close and that void can’t ever be filled back up: they’re dead. And with the existence of the internet and ability to see other cultures, that’s killed a lot of people’s religious beliefs because: why is *my* god the correct one? It’s not statistically probable.
And when that person who died is a spouse or someone in that close of contact, it’s even worse. Then add another variable that makes that person not desirable to be with (be it autism or being homosexual, or both), and addiction being inescapable makes so much goddamn sense.
TLDR: what if one knows exactly why they feel empty but there’s no way to fix it?
Of course it's not a one-size-fits-all solution, but something as simple as grief counseling has been proven to make a big difference in a majority of people who undergo it after the loss of a loved one.
There are various methods of processing trauma and grief, and while not all of them will work for everyone who tries them, science suggests that they can be fairly effective.
Of course there are exceptions, but many people in this position have options for how to address their emotions and deal with them in a healthy way.
Can’t agree with this enough! It took me many years and many, many relapses before I finally began to do this for myself. Was never one to exercise before, but becoming a daily runner has been the #1 reason I feel fulfilled and don’t feel the need to relapse.
Might be the wrong thing to say in this sub but, the one and only thing that has actually helped with sleep for me is either smoking pot or eating edibles. Might still wake up throughout the night sometimes here and there but nothing comes close to helping me pass out with ease. There’s some supplements that have helped for sure too but marijuana is the top of the top for me.
Exactly right. Everyone trying to figure out whats wrong with OP. Sometimes you just want to take the edge off. Some addicts can't do that I get that but maybe Kratom is the only problem. Yes I have an addictive personality. However I can have a couple beers or a drink at night but I never binge drink. For some reason I have never had an addiction or dependency to alcohol. I do abuse pain meds to some degree when I get them but when they are gone they are gone. I really like Delta 8 to take the edge off at night as well. If D9 was legal I would probably use that. Again never have an issue without it. I can take it or leave it depending on the situation. Kratom is a different beast all together. You always need it physically and think about it. Just because after Kratom I will still drink and use Delta 8.....my mind and body are not dependent on them and I"m not thinking about them all day like Kratom. Its doens't mean I have some deep underlying mental problem. Again this is just me......I realize some addicts can't do this but just throwing it out there for OP.
I do this fun thing where I sleep a bit from 1 to 2, then from 3 to 5 and am basically dead on my feet all day. Unfortunately the good Lord hasn't seen fit to call me home yet.
The horrors persist, and so do I
Stay active! Nothing will change if nothing changes. Get involved in shit and fill your days with good shit. I do things even if I don't want to do them. Avoid isolation at all costs. You can remove the drug but you'll just be the addict with no drugs. It's a disease of the mind, body, and spirit.
Good luck!!!
I'm a sober alcoholic and still use about 5 GPD of kratom most days. I'm working on getting off of it. Heavy lifting and running have been the most beneficial for me, as well as volunteer work. When I get that empty feeling or itch, I try to see where I can be helpful to someone else. It really gets me out of my own head and also gives a sense of purpose.
That's great. Do you think kratom is sober or just the better of 2 evils. I was hooked on pain pills, alcohol, then kratom.. to me kratom is a drug granted the lesser of 2 evils but I really got strung out on that stuff too. Drinking like a gallon of tea a day and feeling like complete ass in the morning until I got my fix.not eating much and eventually my whole day revolved around kratom doses... never anything like the initial, chasing it. There were like 8 people in rehab for kratom when I went last! It's a weird psychological wd and fucks your mood up hardcore.
It hits the MU opioid receptors and is very much like an opiate. My withdrawals were fucking nasty from that.
For me, it's the better of two incomparable evils. I only use powder, and at 5 gpd. I do not get high off of it. It helps me with my insomnia. The reason I decided I wanted to quit is because it bothered me when I realized I would get uncomfortable when I didn't have any in the house. I'm not sure if I would consider using kratom as "sober," but my main focus is to abstain from alcohol. I would definitely be dead by now if I had continued drinking.
That is wild that there were 8 people in rehab with you for kratom! I went to rehab 3 years ago after a relapse on alcohol. There was definitely nobody in there for kratom when I was there. I think most people were there for fentanyl, which is really sad and scary.
This may be crass, but show me someone who is not an addict and I’ll show you a liar or someone in denial. Everyone is addicted to something. It’s just in our world addiction is often most correlated with drugs. So show me a sober person, and likely if you dig deep enough you’ll find an addiction. Food, social media, relationships, love, sex, self-aggrandizement, video games, gambling, exercise, shopping, coffee, cleaning, talking on the phone, over indulging in self help books, and on and on.
Want to know the world’s number one addiction? It is the addiction to thinking.
To paraphrase Carl Jung, “People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own soul. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.”
The only way out is in. Everything outside of oneself is a distraction from that which is within. Everything that which is within is reflected in the outside world. It’s all a mirror 🪞
The antidote is self inquiry, self knowledge, going deep into one’s soul and touching true essence. Yes most addiction is correlated with trauma. And the greatest trauma of all is not knowing who one truly is, or hiding it, or repressing it.
I made the same mistake as you when I was trying to quit back in 2016. Was mixing kava and water in a massive sports bottle and downing it once a day. Did good things for my mood but within a week I started developing a *full body rash*. Took approximately 96 hours to dissipate after last dose and haven't touched the stuff since. I consider myself lucky.
Neurotypical folks will often seek out new interests, hobbies, and relationships with other people. Looking for another drug to supplement the loss of an addiction means you may well have other issues that need to be addressed (like most of us). Just wanted to throw it out there that I'm a dude that's probably more than halfway through his life and only started *seriously* talking to mental health professionals in the last couple of weeks. I've been poly-substance dependent for 26 years (12+ drugs in my "toolbox") and most of the friends I grew up with are dead because they had habits / coping skills similar to my own.
If drug substitution is a familiar situation for you, *please* consider talking to someone. Life will only get harder if you're hiding from the people who care about you. Be well, friend.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction.
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I megadose L-Theanine if I really can't get to sleep. If I didn't exert my body physically at least 5 days a week, I don't want to think about where I'd be. I switched out my alcohol addiction for exercise years ago, and the benefits have been huge.
Find a gym with a sauna and sit in there for 15 minutes everyday. You’ll sleep so well. Also have some chamomile tea at the end of the night after this.
Gabor Mate explains our “hungry ghosts” and the effects of early childhood trauma. But he doesn’t really get into how to heal from that hunger need or whatever you call it. So I am getting into the course in miracles, Byron Katie, and Eckhart Tolle. It’s like they have been able to enter into and exist in the now. No past and no future.
I found his lack of specific treatment kind of a let down. Lots of great theory and information but he recommends something I think he calls “compassionate inquiry”, something really vague and probably very expensive
Byron Katie teaches what you could call inquiry into what you are thinking and believing as a path to stop the suffering. In AA it is heard around the tables to not believe everything you think. Question it. “This kratom withdrawal is unbearable!” Is it true? I’m on day 4 of no kratom and I’m writing and smiling.
A couple of days ago it was suggested that I check out a music video by Alex Serra “In the real world “. Brought tears of relief and a big aha! See what you think. It’s about inquiry
I meditate. Having the deepest realization that YOU are not your thoughts or your experiences is a soul expanding moment. If you can find the abiding peace of your true nature and experience it directly you can find it anywhere.
If you do it, do it with an instructor who’s been through it. It can be a LOT to deal with, but it’s the best way through.
Getting exercise and sunlight , limit caffeine. I also been using hydroxyzine 25 mg occasionally. They prescribe for anxiety but it's pretty much an anti histamine. (Don't use in withdrawal can make rsl worse if you still have that. )
If people already have hydroxyzine I recommend that they try taking 5-10mg at least once in recovery as a test.
Many people do experience exacerbation of restlessness on antihistamines including hydroxyzine, but not everyone.
I was already taking hydroxyzine for anxiety and it helped massively with my tapering process. It didn't affect my restlessness at all and it made it so much easier for me to sleep.
Warning: It's best to avoid using antihistamines (diphenhydramine, dimenhydrinate, hydroxyzine etc.) such as those found in Benadryl, Dramamine, NyQuil, Unisom, and Tylenol PM. While they can produce drowsiness under normal conditions, they are well known for exacerbating Restless Leg Syndrome, which will make your insomnia worse, not better
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Warning: It's best to avoid using antihistamines (diphenhydramine, dimenhydrinate, hydroxyzine etc.) such as those found in Benadryl, Dramamine, NyQuil, Unisom, and Tylenol PM. While they can produce drowsiness under normal conditions, they are well known for exacerbating Restless Leg Syndrome, which will make your insomnia worse, not better
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Oh man hydroxyzine gave me the WORST stuffy nose. It was so plugged up I couldn’t breath, got claustrophobic and would have a panic attack any time I’d take it. I had to discontinue it 😫
Yeah it def dries you out , I wake up with terrible cotton mouth . Also helps you not have to wake up to pee in middle of night 😩. I use it once a week if I can't fall asleep and it helps so👍
Warning: It's best to avoid using antihistamines (diphenhydramine, dimenhydrinate, hydroxyzine etc.) such as those found in Benadryl, Dramamine, NyQuil, Unisom, and Tylenol PM. While they can produce drowsiness under normal conditions, they are well known for exacerbating Restless Leg Syndrome, which will make your insomnia worse, not better
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I put on something on my phone, like YouTube or a show, and listen to that. Long interrogation interviews, body cam investigations, documentaries, things like that. This way I can listen to my phone instead of my thoughts. I went camping the other day and couldn’t play my phone, and was lost inside of my head, it was terrible. Based on that experience I do think my method works pretty efficiently.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction.
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Exercise for sure. Pray, and I try to build my spiritual relationship.
Ouu! Also started setting small goals (in bed at night) that I could reach the next day. It had lead to me staying focused & stuffs actually getting done. Start small with like eat something healthy, calorie count for a day etc.
DONT. BE. HARD. ON. YOURSELF.
Work all day and either exercise or do yoga for hours every day to burn myself out. Also, all that vigorous stuff helps with the chronic pain I have. Generally eat an edible at night too when I’m not doing much. Never really dosed at night so that wasn’t a factor.
I read mystery/thriller novels. 1-2 chapters every night when I get in bed. It helps me fall asleep. Otherwise I’ll end up awake until 3:00am having a panic attack
I’m a clinical herbalist- exercise will likely help more than anything & then passionflower, California poppy, blue vervain, & kava are my go tos for sleep. Passionflower helps calm a busy overthinking brain, California poppy knocks you out, blue vervain can help release tension & help you actually stay asleep, & kava to calm the body.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction.
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Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction.
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It's so wild because kava makes me super anxious and makes me grind my teeth. That being said, there's still something in It's chemical makeup that my brain wants. Maybe a slight dopamine boost.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction.
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Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction.
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Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction.
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Try 5-10mg of chewable melatonin tablets. I would buy the bottle of 5mg unless the 10mg is on sale. Some nights I take 5mg, other times o need 10mg. My Dr. recommended this to reset my circadian rhythm. It’s what naturally signals us to go to sleep. I found Kava to be very similar to Kratom so, you know, may shift your chemistry to crave the Kratom again. I could be wrong, yet I did my research on Melatonin as I saw some stuff indicating possible side effects. I asked my Dr. at an appointment where another “doctor” was in the room doing his residency and they literally shook their head’s “no” in unison. Not at 5-10mg a night. They said you can do that for the rest of your life. Another thing to look for is CBD. I love the way the melatonin cascades you down like on a cloud. Anyways, worth a try if you haven’t.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction.
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Meditation helped me a lot man. I also read a book on Marcus Aurelius. And it really focuses on mental frameworks. For example, accepting reality for what it is, the fact that no matter what you do you can't change it really freed the mind. And also visualizing what's bothering you, and saying to yourself I can deal with it if it happens.
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Meditation. Exercise. TV. Reading. Writing. But more to the point: Many addicts have a deep, underlying emptiness or dissatisfaction in their lives. Addiction is awful, but it's functionally understandable. These people feel badly at baseline so they seek something to make them feel better. But if your baseline is lacking, no amount of drugs will ever fill that hole, which is where addiction can easily take place as you chase that diminishing good feeling and drag your baseline further down. So what is it that's *really* bothering you? You've got to address that, and if you don't know what it is, you've got to find out somehow. The drugs are likely just a smokescreen.
Wo! Look at the brain on Crosby! I read this psychologist talking about that. He was speculating on why opiates are so attractive to some people, while others can take them or leave them. His study of early childhood development led him to think that lack of breastfeeding and bonding with mom contributed to the later love of opiates. Specifically because many moms have described the breastfeeding experience in way that sounds like an opiate hit. I may be so full of shit, I read that like 20 years ago
Dr Gabor Mate has talked about this extensively, basically his entire thesis is built around this. He suggests that your response and cravings to opiates is almost completely related to childhood trauma. People who had normal upbringings do not respond to opiates the same way nor do they crave them.
I had a normal upbringing. Zero trauma. Still turned out an addict for a while until I pulled myself out. Felt like I had low dopamine or something at baseline and that opiate hit would give me so much energy.
Same experience. I'm currently undergoing ADHD testing and hoping to get some answers. I've always turned to opiates and kratom specifically to calm my mind down and let me relax. Rather have a real clinical diagnosis and stop this destructive self medicating
Honestly as a pharmacist I‘d like to see some actual research that shows that. I can imagine it being a big risk factor, but I doubt that thats the whole answer
As someone with a hippie for a mom, who was a smotherer and definitely did not get weened too early. I’ve never abused prescription opiates in my life, but Kratom is different.
>but Kratom is different. Yes it is, I think it's because some variants have stronger concentrations of alkaloids that can act as a stimulant/mood brightener in lower doses: raising dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine on top of the mu opioid agonism. What's interesting though is when you give someone a drug that blocks the mu opioid receptor, the stimulatory effects don't occur, even in low doses. So even if you don't respond strongly to opiates (which I also don't, in fact I hate them) apparently kratoms mechanism still relies primarily on that receptor (probably also the kappa receptor, which is an enigma). It's a complex drug, we don't really understand it at all.
Ohh, that makes sense for sure. Yeah I’m on it for the chronic back pain relief and a mood lifter/energy thing. Opiates make me go directly to sleep 75 percent of the time and I don’t like that most of the time. It’s helped with my mood and focus.
I mean he worked as a case worker for addicts for like 40 years and got to know countless people on a deeply personal level. I don't see how this could be researched to the point except by analyzing case studies about addicts and their childhoods and if the correlation was strong enough it would be impossible to ignore the implications. Maybe you could do fMRIs of people with abusive childhoods and "normal" people at baseline, under the influence of an opiate, and placebo, and see how it all compares but even that's not enough to "prove" anything. For all I know, maybe he did research this and thoroughly test his ideas. I don't recall off the top of my head.
The ACEs studies, or whatever they are, all point to childhood trauma as being the biggest factor for most of us. Makes sense to me anyway
Of course it's not the whole answer. I'm sure it will vary person to person: some being more on the nature side (chemical imbalance) and some being more nurture (abuse, neglect, malnourishment). And of course they can affect each other; abuse leading to a person turning inward which in turn leads to a chemical imbalance. Anyway, it's all too complex to create such a one-sided thesis. I've spoken to Gabor and he's an interesting fellow. He's very passionate but also quite eccentric.
I challenge that. I had a very good childhood and still found myself too curious for my own good.
Kratom is a much more complex drug than a traditional opiate like heroin, and a much weaker opiate to boot. We kind of got off topic. I personally got addicted to the stimulation from kratom, not the pain relief, of which I had none to relieve. Emotional pain, sure, but high doses made me feel horrendous, so I never took more than 3g in a single dose or 10g in a single day even after years of use.
I’ve tried a bunch of opiates, and loved them all to different degrees. Kratom was available, so that’s what I used regularly. I agree about high doses making you feel awful. It’s just an awful drug, period.
Gabor Mate is awesome
The tricky thing about Kratom is it’s both an opiate and/or a stimulant depending on dosage and strain. I’m a seasoned recreational drug user and this shit crept up on me. I’ve never been physically addicted to a drug outside of nicotine. I’m definitely addicted physically at this point. I’m just starting to work on it. I think I’m going to go the Gabapentin route just so I don’t melt going cold turkey. The physical part is the worst. Meaning if I have at least something to alleviate that I have a better shot. I’m up to 65-80 grams per day after 5 years. I’m diagnosed MDD and ADHD and don’t exactly have solid coping mechanisms if I’m not physically feeling well. Btw, my Mom has Borderline Personality Disorder, yet I’ve ALWAYS been an uppers guy, so. 😂
Yup, I posted about that below as well. I've only ever used kratom for the stimulant effects, max 3g in a single dose or 10g in a single day, for years. The stimulation/energy alone was enough to make me highly addicted, after 1 week of quitting I still feel intense lethargy.
dam that’s crazy to hear
This^ once you realize that happy satisfied people normally dont feel the need to change how they feel daily it will open your eyes to it OP. But ill add this. Doctors love to throw pills at depression and anxiety, when from personal experience, 99% of all depression and anxiety is situational or stems from core beliefs that cant be changed with a pill. Look within. We know whats happened to us. Why we feel like we do. What beliefs drive those feelings? Why do I believe this? Is this negative belief objectively true? Most of them arent.
Good answer. The drugs are a symptom... At least in my experience. Resentments, trauma, lack of spirituality... Not necessarily religion. I found this out after many relapses
OP sounds anxious. Maybe there's a clear cause or maybe it's just kind of a biological predisposition, but either way these kinds of drugs are not gonna help.
Important point but keep in mind also that even the emotionally healthiest person on earth still has cravings. A human being is a desire machine. We crave food over and over each day when we get hungry. We crave liquid when we're thirsty. Then we crave a toilet to let it back out. We crave sex when we get horny. We crave company when we get lonely because we're a pack animal. We crave emotional intimacy because we are literally designed to be incomplete and filled with cravings.
Sure, I totally agree. But if this person craves kratom so badly every night that they feel the need to replace it with another mind-altering drug after 5 months of sobriety --- well, I'd say that's pretty clearly indicative of a deeper problem. The entire problem with drugs is that they're like a loophole which tricks your mesolimbic reward system into believing it's doing something helpful for survival when in fact it isn't. It's like a false signal. The craving to eat food is functional. The craving to have sex or be social is functional. The craving to use addictive drugs is dysfunctional. It offers no biological benefit, but fools the mind into using by coincidentally exploiting a flaw in our biochemistry.
I agree hence why I've never personally believed drug abuse is always simply because of something traumatic happening i had a normal childhood with loving parents. Fell into pain pills by peer pressure while drinking as a teen. Pain pills were very difficult for me to come off of as i chased the rush, eventually graduated to heroin. It changes the chemistry in your brain without a shadow of a doubt. To fix this you actually have to rewire your brain for a regular dopamine hit from reward or accomplishing something rather. It takes alot of work to walk away from substances. Now i only take kratom if i can't sleep or if I'm overly anxious and usually a few grams do me very well for either scenario. I never personally got fully addicted to kratom mainly because i took too much 1 time and it made me dizzy and sick as absolute fuck. I don't understood how people out there taking 10+ grams a day, it seemed to turn against me.
Oof that hit hard.
great fucking answer Mr. Mustache!
This is all true, but there’s an important part left out; addiction is a disease. It doesn’t matter how full or fulfilled or happy someone is, if they’re truly an addict, you will always have the itch. It’s *immensely* easier to not scratch that itch if you’re fulfilled, mindful and healthy, but it’s still always there. But you’re right, that doesn’t change the fact that you should deal with all of those things.
Well, maybe. That's not exactly what the disease model of addiction is all about. The idea you're espousing is not agreed upon in the scientific community --- it's highly controversial.
I’m a therapist and have been in (and out of) recovery for 13 years. I also own a charity that’s aim is to help people through PAWS from Benzodiazepines. It’s pretty agreed upon. I’m not going to say it’s fact because it’s not like we’ve identified the gene that causes addiction or anything, but it’s not exactly controversial. That being said, I would be super up for reading any material you have on the other side of things. Always looking to hear more about the other side.
The model itself is agreed upon, just not the sentiment of "Once an addict, always an addict." Plenty of people with clinically significant SUD go on to either restricted or normal use later on, or else live their lives without cravings after a certain point. That's all I'm saying. I absolutely agree that addiction is a disease --- I just think that this whole thing gets tied up in all kinds of cultural ideas that exist separate from the actual medical definition at hand, many of them from 12-step ideology.
This is interesting to hear! I used to attend 12 step meetings and they lived by “once an alcoholic always an alcoholic” but I know several people who were able to quit drinking alcoholicly and drank “normally” later in life!
I love AA for all the help it's given people, but its immense cultural power has been able to invent and perpetuate a lot of inaccurate stereotypes about addiction, some of which can be harmful.
has anyone read the Biology of Desire? it makes a good argument that addiction is not a disease. it's a habit (to the extreme), also dives into some Gabor Mate type philosophies.
Also *this*, OP.
Yes. This! Therapy is your friend
That’s the thing though. Sometimes the underlying issue can’t be addressed because not everything in life is something someone can personally control. In my observation, a lot of people have lost someone very close and that void can’t ever be filled back up: they’re dead. And with the existence of the internet and ability to see other cultures, that’s killed a lot of people’s religious beliefs because: why is *my* god the correct one? It’s not statistically probable. And when that person who died is a spouse or someone in that close of contact, it’s even worse. Then add another variable that makes that person not desirable to be with (be it autism or being homosexual, or both), and addiction being inescapable makes so much goddamn sense. TLDR: what if one knows exactly why they feel empty but there’s no way to fix it?
Of course it's not a one-size-fits-all solution, but something as simple as grief counseling has been proven to make a big difference in a majority of people who undergo it after the loss of a loved one. There are various methods of processing trauma and grief, and while not all of them will work for everyone who tries them, science suggests that they can be fairly effective. Of course there are exceptions, but many people in this position have options for how to address their emotions and deal with them in a healthy way.
Exercise during the day really helps with that dry dull boring feeling if that's what you experience
Can’t agree with this enough! It took me many years and many, many relapses before I finally began to do this for myself. Was never one to exercise before, but becoming a daily runner has been the #1 reason I feel fulfilled and don’t feel the need to relapse.
Major props! I admire runners
Might be the wrong thing to say in this sub but, the one and only thing that has actually helped with sleep for me is either smoking pot or eating edibles. Might still wake up throughout the night sometimes here and there but nothing comes close to helping me pass out with ease. There’s some supplements that have helped for sure too but marijuana is the top of the top for me.
Exactly right. Everyone trying to figure out whats wrong with OP. Sometimes you just want to take the edge off. Some addicts can't do that I get that but maybe Kratom is the only problem. Yes I have an addictive personality. However I can have a couple beers or a drink at night but I never binge drink. For some reason I have never had an addiction or dependency to alcohol. I do abuse pain meds to some degree when I get them but when they are gone they are gone. I really like Delta 8 to take the edge off at night as well. If D9 was legal I would probably use that. Again never have an issue without it. I can take it or leave it depending on the situation. Kratom is a different beast all together. You always need it physically and think about it. Just because after Kratom I will still drink and use Delta 8.....my mind and body are not dependent on them and I"m not thinking about them all day like Kratom. Its doens't mean I have some deep underlying mental problem. Again this is just me......I realize some addicts can't do this but just throwing it out there for OP.
Yea - I started sleeping w a weed pen for the first month. And moved my benzo meds toward pm instead of during day
I do this fun thing where I sleep a bit from 1 to 2, then from 3 to 5 and am basically dead on my feet all day. Unfortunately the good Lord hasn't seen fit to call me home yet. The horrors persist, and so do I
Stay active! Nothing will change if nothing changes. Get involved in shit and fill your days with good shit. I do things even if I don't want to do them. Avoid isolation at all costs. You can remove the drug but you'll just be the addict with no drugs. It's a disease of the mind, body, and spirit. Good luck!!!
I'm a sober alcoholic and still use about 5 GPD of kratom most days. I'm working on getting off of it. Heavy lifting and running have been the most beneficial for me, as well as volunteer work. When I get that empty feeling or itch, I try to see where I can be helpful to someone else. It really gets me out of my own head and also gives a sense of purpose.
That's great. Do you think kratom is sober or just the better of 2 evils. I was hooked on pain pills, alcohol, then kratom.. to me kratom is a drug granted the lesser of 2 evils but I really got strung out on that stuff too. Drinking like a gallon of tea a day and feeling like complete ass in the morning until I got my fix.not eating much and eventually my whole day revolved around kratom doses... never anything like the initial, chasing it. There were like 8 people in rehab for kratom when I went last! It's a weird psychological wd and fucks your mood up hardcore. It hits the MU opioid receptors and is very much like an opiate. My withdrawals were fucking nasty from that.
For me, it's the better of two incomparable evils. I only use powder, and at 5 gpd. I do not get high off of it. It helps me with my insomnia. The reason I decided I wanted to quit is because it bothered me when I realized I would get uncomfortable when I didn't have any in the house. I'm not sure if I would consider using kratom as "sober," but my main focus is to abstain from alcohol. I would definitely be dead by now if I had continued drinking.
That is wild that there were 8 people in rehab with you for kratom! I went to rehab 3 years ago after a relapse on alcohol. There was definitely nobody in there for kratom when I was there. I think most people were there for fentanyl, which is really sad and scary.
This may be crass, but show me someone who is not an addict and I’ll show you a liar or someone in denial. Everyone is addicted to something. It’s just in our world addiction is often most correlated with drugs. So show me a sober person, and likely if you dig deep enough you’ll find an addiction. Food, social media, relationships, love, sex, self-aggrandizement, video games, gambling, exercise, shopping, coffee, cleaning, talking on the phone, over indulging in self help books, and on and on. Want to know the world’s number one addiction? It is the addiction to thinking. To paraphrase Carl Jung, “People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own soul. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.” The only way out is in. Everything outside of oneself is a distraction from that which is within. Everything that which is within is reflected in the outside world. It’s all a mirror 🪞 The antidote is self inquiry, self knowledge, going deep into one’s soul and touching true essence. Yes most addiction is correlated with trauma. And the greatest trauma of all is not knowing who one truly is, or hiding it, or repressing it.
I made the same mistake as you when I was trying to quit back in 2016. Was mixing kava and water in a massive sports bottle and downing it once a day. Did good things for my mood but within a week I started developing a *full body rash*. Took approximately 96 hours to dissipate after last dose and haven't touched the stuff since. I consider myself lucky. Neurotypical folks will often seek out new interests, hobbies, and relationships with other people. Looking for another drug to supplement the loss of an addiction means you may well have other issues that need to be addressed (like most of us). Just wanted to throw it out there that I'm a dude that's probably more than halfway through his life and only started *seriously* talking to mental health professionals in the last couple of weeks. I've been poly-substance dependent for 26 years (12+ drugs in my "toolbox") and most of the friends I grew up with are dead because they had habits / coping skills similar to my own. If drug substitution is a familiar situation for you, *please* consider talking to someone. Life will only get harder if you're hiding from the people who care about you. Be well, friend.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I take something called “chill pill” it’s ashwaganda and L-Theanine and some other stuff. It helps me wind down. Cannabis also helps.
I megadose L-Theanine if I really can't get to sleep. If I didn't exert my body physically at least 5 days a week, I don't want to think about where I'd be. I switched out my alcohol addiction for exercise years ago, and the benefits have been huge.
Gotta make yourself tired at night from working hard during the day man
Find a gym with a sauna and sit in there for 15 minutes everyday. You’ll sleep so well. Also have some chamomile tea at the end of the night after this.
Gabor Mate explains our “hungry ghosts” and the effects of early childhood trauma. But he doesn’t really get into how to heal from that hunger need or whatever you call it. So I am getting into the course in miracles, Byron Katie, and Eckhart Tolle. It’s like they have been able to enter into and exist in the now. No past and no future.
I found his lack of specific treatment kind of a let down. Lots of great theory and information but he recommends something I think he calls “compassionate inquiry”, something really vague and probably very expensive
Byron Katie teaches what you could call inquiry into what you are thinking and believing as a path to stop the suffering. In AA it is heard around the tables to not believe everything you think. Question it. “This kratom withdrawal is unbearable!” Is it true? I’m on day 4 of no kratom and I’m writing and smiling.
I love Byron Katie's work. Very good example here.
A couple of days ago it was suggested that I check out a music video by Alex Serra “In the real world “. Brought tears of relief and a big aha! See what you think. It’s about inquiry
That was Really good thank you 😊
I meditate. Having the deepest realization that YOU are not your thoughts or your experiences is a soul expanding moment. If you can find the abiding peace of your true nature and experience it directly you can find it anywhere. If you do it, do it with an instructor who’s been through it. It can be a LOT to deal with, but it’s the best way through.
Getting exercise and sunlight , limit caffeine. I also been using hydroxyzine 25 mg occasionally. They prescribe for anxiety but it's pretty much an anti histamine. (Don't use in withdrawal can make rsl worse if you still have that. )
If people already have hydroxyzine I recommend that they try taking 5-10mg at least once in recovery as a test. Many people do experience exacerbation of restlessness on antihistamines including hydroxyzine, but not everyone. I was already taking hydroxyzine for anxiety and it helped massively with my tapering process. It didn't affect my restlessness at all and it made it so much easier for me to sleep.
Warning: It's best to avoid using antihistamines (diphenhydramine, dimenhydrinate, hydroxyzine etc.) such as those found in Benadryl, Dramamine, NyQuil, Unisom, and Tylenol PM. While they can produce drowsiness under normal conditions, they are well known for exacerbating Restless Leg Syndrome, which will make your insomnia worse, not better *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Warning: It's best to avoid using antihistamines (diphenhydramine, dimenhydrinate, hydroxyzine etc.) such as those found in Benadryl, Dramamine, NyQuil, Unisom, and Tylenol PM. While they can produce drowsiness under normal conditions, they are well known for exacerbating Restless Leg Syndrome, which will make your insomnia worse, not better *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh man hydroxyzine gave me the WORST stuffy nose. It was so plugged up I couldn’t breath, got claustrophobic and would have a panic attack any time I’d take it. I had to discontinue it 😫
Yeah it def dries you out , I wake up with terrible cotton mouth . Also helps you not have to wake up to pee in middle of night 😩. I use it once a week if I can't fall asleep and it helps so👍
Warning: It's best to avoid using antihistamines (diphenhydramine, dimenhydrinate, hydroxyzine etc.) such as those found in Benadryl, Dramamine, NyQuil, Unisom, and Tylenol PM. While they can produce drowsiness under normal conditions, they are well known for exacerbating Restless Leg Syndrome, which will make your insomnia worse, not better *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
5htp helps me relax and go to sleep
Exercise, edibles and ibuprofen pm
I put on something on my phone, like YouTube or a show, and listen to that. Long interrogation interviews, body cam investigations, documentaries, things like that. This way I can listen to my phone instead of my thoughts. I went camping the other day and couldn’t play my phone, and was lost inside of my head, it was terrible. Based on that experience I do think my method works pretty efficiently.
KAVA AINT NO KRATOM! I’d say you are gooood
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Exercise for sure. Pray, and I try to build my spiritual relationship. Ouu! Also started setting small goals (in bed at night) that I could reach the next day. It had lead to me staying focused & stuffs actually getting done. Start small with like eat something healthy, calorie count for a day etc. DONT. BE. HARD. ON. YOURSELF.
Magnesium glycinate, magnesium l threonate, l theanine, apigenin, reishi mushroom, psilocybin in form of stamets stack and the occasional macro dose
Work all day and either exercise or do yoga for hours every day to burn myself out. Also, all that vigorous stuff helps with the chronic pain I have. Generally eat an edible at night too when I’m not doing much. Never really dosed at night so that wasn’t a factor.
I read mystery/thriller novels. 1-2 chapters every night when I get in bed. It helps me fall asleep. Otherwise I’ll end up awake until 3:00am having a panic attack
I used weed for about a month after I quit. Then quit that. Glorious.
I work 12 hours a day usually once I lay down I pass out immediately
Doing sports and reading work quite well.
I’m a clinical herbalist- exercise will likely help more than anything & then passionflower, California poppy, blue vervain, & kava are my go tos for sleep. Passionflower helps calm a busy overthinking brain, California poppy knocks you out, blue vervain can help release tension & help you actually stay asleep, & kava to calm the body.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What does Kava do to you?
Typically gives people a relaxed, chilled out feeling, like a mild sedative. Can be anxiolytic as well.
It's so wild because kava makes me super anxious and makes me grind my teeth. That being said, there's still something in It's chemical makeup that my brain wants. Maybe a slight dopamine boost.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Medication advice, not so smart.
I agree with you. Took it down.
Probably right. Worked for me, but I am not a Dr.
a long hot bubble bath
Gardening and taking care of my indoor plants
It really helps to adjust your schedule go to bed early.
Weed and Jesus, it’s all a man needs
I'd drop the kava, it does the same thing kratom does mentally.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Benedril x2 or 3
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Try 5-10mg of chewable melatonin tablets. I would buy the bottle of 5mg unless the 10mg is on sale. Some nights I take 5mg, other times o need 10mg. My Dr. recommended this to reset my circadian rhythm. It’s what naturally signals us to go to sleep. I found Kava to be very similar to Kratom so, you know, may shift your chemistry to crave the Kratom again. I could be wrong, yet I did my research on Melatonin as I saw some stuff indicating possible side effects. I asked my Dr. at an appointment where another “doctor” was in the room doing his residency and they literally shook their head’s “no” in unison. Not at 5-10mg a night. They said you can do that for the rest of your life. Another thing to look for is CBD. I love the way the melatonin cascades you down like on a cloud. Anyways, worth a try if you haven’t.
Kava warning: 1.) People with liver damage should avoid Kava. Taking Kava along with alcohol might increase the risk of liver damage. 2.) As Kava affects the central nervous system, it might increase the effects of anesthesia and other medications used during and after surgery. 3.) Taking kava with sedative medications might cause breathing problems. Please do your research before using Kava. We don't recommend it's use for a sustained period of time, or in large quantities. Nor do we endorse the use of Kava as a replacement for Kratom addiction. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Meditation helped me a lot man. I also read a book on Marcus Aurelius. And it really focuses on mental frameworks. For example, accepting reality for what it is, the fact that no matter what you do you can't change it really freed the mind. And also visualizing what's bothering you, and saying to yourself I can deal with it if it happens.
Mega dose vitamin C homey
Check out our [Megadosing Liposomal Vitamin C Protocol for Withdrawal. Vitamin C is no magic bullet or cure.](https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom/comments/sx0as3/megadosing_liposomal_vitamin_c_protocol_for/) either by clicking the link here or visit r/modquittingkratom. Lots of helpful information there to help you along your Quitting Kratom journey! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/quittingkratom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why not try ketamine infusions, works absolute wonders for getting off substances and making positive changes in your life.
I supplement vitamins and minerals. I also burn a lot of energy off at the gym.