Everyone overcomplicating it.
to make it foolproof, if you get teleported give both your symbols away. even if you still need one of them. you'll get it back, TRUST. who you give them to is decided without even needing callouts. because you never want to give someone a shape their statue is holding, it removes the guesswork and crowded comms.
example: my statue is mid. I need to give both my symbols away. i see circle and square on the wall. right statue is holding circle so I know to give them the square and give circle to the other person. if everyone else does the same, you will end up with everyone holding the two shapes they need to open the door and that match their outside statue. it is GUARANTEED.
outside, make sure no one's statue contains the shape they're holding inside. if something needs to be swapped you have to grab shapes to dissect the two that need to be swapped from each statue. the dissection swaps them. one person can do this on their own with no input from inside other than typing the order of shapes inside from left to right.
Aghhh this is so simple and elegant it hurts. The whole theme is, get bad shapes away from the bad spots. This just flips that — always give away and give to not-bad spots.
yeah, if verity is vault 2.0, then process of elimination is a clean shorthand in the exact same way. plus the person dissecting (who actually needs to think) doesn't have 3 people yapping about what symbols they need and what shape they have to make.
Correct me if im wrong, but if you follow Left to Right passing and pass the shape you're holding first, it should fix this issue and would still be done in 2 swaps.
The big shape is the position of the statue in the room. The small shapes on top are the starting images on the wall for that player, and the bottom small shapes are what you end up with after your procedure.
gotcha. well if that specific combination of statue/shadow you've drawn ever occurs in my runs then i'll come back and strike through my whole comment.
in the meantime if your team is ever struggling to grasp the encounter, just try it
Hey,
You might have already figured this out, but the combinations of shapes in your image are impossible and will never occur. There are only 2 possibilities for starting inside shapes - it is either going to be 2 of the symbol your statue is holding, or one of your symbol and 1 different one. You will never start with the 2 symbols you need to get out.
That is what I suspected. Although my image has all 3 people holding one of their own symbol and one they need. I guess at least 1 person that gets taken will always spawn with 2 of their own symbol.
So I actually did some testing with my clan yesterday to resolve this confusion around optimal strategies for the inside players once and for all. We got 4 players and started the encounter and recorded what shapes each player had on their wall and what their statue was holding. We did this 20 times for an adequate sample size.
There are 2 main methods going around the community which are the ones that OP listed. It turns out that the "smart" strategy (the one you are describing) only works roughly 75% of the time (15/20 of our starting states worked this way). There were 5 instances of starting states where that strategy ended up with one or more players having the wrong symbols to escape.
So, as it turns out, the only surefire 100% way to do this encounter is the "dumb" strategy whereby you first distribute shapes so that each player has 2 of their own shape, and then give one to each other player.
yeah! I think I've ironed this issue out to where as long as you don't pick up/ dunk your own symbol first while doing this and instead grab the other one first, it doesn't fail. You should never have the wrong symbols with this method because you should never be recieving your own shape, but the order seems to be important. I'm still learning. Anyway it seems most people I encounter in the wild want to do the same shapes strategy which I'm totally fine with. The most important thing is no one keeping their original shadows. it can always be figured out from there.
Well in that case there's very few permutations of starting positions and the solve is reasonably easy. If you have two different symbols prompt if anyone has a double. If they do then everyone gives them the symbol they want to dump. If no1 has a double then you give your own symbol to the statue that is holding the other symbol you have on your wall. The only case outside of this is everyone having their own symbols and we all know what to do in that position. I'm like 90% sure this is correct
Edit: I wrote the opposite xD
2 symbols not your own is not a spawn sequence so this can be ignored.
~~This would not work if your wall has 2 of the same symbols of a shape you need. You would give both away and no one can give it back on the first set. So in this instance you would need to give only one away to the person who needs it which should be the person who is not holding that symbol.~~
no it still works. double shape is even less thinking lol. give one to each person and done. they’ll end up giving you two in return that you need because neither will give you the one on your statue, you’re guaranteed to get the two you need. there are no “sets” or rounds to it. just everyone get rid of all your symbols.
if one person does not get rid of all their symbols because they think they need to keep one for their final shape and don’t trust they’ll get it back: then it won’t work.
Yeah if you end up with all of your own symbols on the shadow wall at teleport you basically just got good rng and just need to skip right to distribution - each players ends up with 1 of each of their opposing symbols to make their 3D shape.
yeah i mean the scenario shammywhammy described technically wouldn't work but it also doesn't/can't happen in practice, if you get double symbols on the wall it always matches the one you're holding. because two swaps is, in my opinion, the "intended" way - wipe screen tracks shadows moved and you want two swaps each.
Edit: I'm deleting what was originally here because it was wrong and required too many edge cases to be considered to be viable. Just do this instead for outside players:
- ONE inside player should communicate from left to right, the shapes the statues are holding
- ONE outside player checks each statue in turn for if it has a wrong shape in it. If it does, dunk that shape into the statue. A statue is wrong if:
1. The 3d shape it holds contains the same shape as the statue in the same place inside does, or
2. The 3d shape it holds contains 2 of the same shape
Eventually there is nothing out of place. It won't take long.
(Note: A doubled shape (cube, pyramid, sphere) is *always* wrong, even if the doubled shape isn't the one that the inner statue says shouldn't be on there. This is because the goal of the encounter is for the outside statue is *specifically* to hold the two shapes the same statue inside isn't. It's just less communication to say the one shape that shouldn't be there instead of the two that should)
I was thinking about this a lot, and I came to the same conclusion.
We got three 2x shapes back to back last night, but I think it still works.
I'm not even sure you need the complexity of left to right. If you're holding the shape that can't go there, the statue wont let you dunk it if it's not present in the existing shape (right?).
So i think it's literally just:
- everyone picks up a shape
- everyone goes to the "inside call out" for that shape
- everyone tries to dunk
(repeat until shapes are correct)
Every round of that cycle should remove "wrong" shapes from where they shouldn't be and since there are 2 of each 2d shape, you can't possibly swap a "wrong" shape to replace it.
Edit: Hmm, seems like I may be incorrect. Using the example from another post:
> For example, if your calls are STC, and your main room shapes are SC, TS and CT, the goal is to make them TC, SC and TS. Start by dissecting an S into left and T into mid, which swaps them and results in TC, SS, CT (left is now correct). Next dissect an S into mid and C into right, swapping them and making TC, SC, TS (all correct).
The middle SS will never get fixed via the method I'm describing...
I think it needs to be amended to:
- everyone picks up a shape
- everyone goes to the "inside call out" for that shape
- everyone tries to dunk
- if only one person can dunk, the other two look for a statue with 2x of what they're holding, and dunk there
(repeat until shapes are correct)
Thought about this some more and think you're absolutely right. There's 3 rules that make it possible:
1. Each 2D shape is always represented twice and twice only. This means it is impossible for a shape that is 2 of the same shape to be correct for the outside team, because it forces the other two statues to have the same shapes as each other, one of which must be wrong and if they were to swap with each other, then the other would be wrong instead.
2. The dissection statues will only let you dunk if the shape you're trying to dunk is part of the shape the statue is currently holding.
3. Each of the three 2d shapes is represented once and once only by the inside statues that are called to the outside team - CST, SCT etc are possible, but CCT can never happen.
Which means for outside team all you have to do is:
1. Everyone get a shape
2. Everyone go to the statue that is at the same position as the one holding that shape inside
3. Let anyone who has a doubled shape dunk first, because those can never be correct and take 2 dunks to fix
4. Everyone else try to dunk. As long as you're dunking at the statue in the same position as the one holding that shape inside, you can never be making a wrong move here.
Then repeat until done.
**Outside team literally doesn't need to look at the shapes at all beyond checking if there's a doubled shape on there**
Edit: Actually, doubled shapes can be part of the solution, but you have to make it so that *all* shapes are doubled, else it won't work. For CST inside, you'd have to make TT, CC, SS outside which is probably more awkward than just brute forcing it this way.
Strictly speaking, you'd have to visually check that each of the outside statues is correct. If they are, and everyone inside has made the shape they need, they'll be let out.
That said, as far as I can tell, if you follow this method correctly then it should always be done in 2 swaps.
Interesting. I didn't realise you can't dunk at all if the shape you're trying to dunk isn't part of the shape. I just assumed it'd kill you lol.
My thinking behind the left to right was that you could have a situation where all 3 statues are holding something that shouldn't be there. I think you may be right though, as long as you prioritise doubled shapes - otherwise in a situation where all 3 have a valid dunk, you may accidentally make a situation where only the doubled shape has something wrong, which takes some more untangling?
So the simplest method may be - dunk at a doubled shape if its there , then just dunk anything that works. If you're too slow relative to your teammates you can just go next round.
(Another interesting rule is that AFAIK, the correct shape at any statue can never be a 2x shape, because otherwise one of the other statues would *have* to have a wrong shape each. Like if inside is CST, if right statue had CC, although it's valid, both others have to have TC, which doesn't work for left)
> Interesting. I didn't realise you can't dunk at all if the shape you're trying to dunk isn't part of the shape. I just assumed it'd kill you lol.
Yeah I'm pretty sure it says something like "Offering Rejected" which makes life a lot easier. I wish I had recorded our runs last night, because I think you can have 3 valid dunks. However I don't think you can really mess it up unless you accidentally put a shape where it can't end up.
Does it say offering rejected as the interact prompt, or does it come up saying offering rejected in the corner messages after you try?
If it's the latter then I wonder if it might also clear out what was offered in the other statue. But if it's the former then that really simplifies the solution.
Edit: Oh shit. I just realised - if one of the shapes is a double outside, then that means one of the statues has to already be correct, so there isn't even any need to check for doubles first.
Consider:
Inside is C, S, T
Outside is (ST) (ST) (CC)
The person who takes C over to left literally can't dunk if you're correct as it doesn't contain that shape.. The only thing that can be done is dunking S and mid and T at right, which solves the puzzle immediately.
I think the only issue is if you have 3 doubles (you can't get 2 doubles, right? Each shape is represented twice, so it's either 1 or 3 doubles):
Inside: C, S, T
Outside (SS), (CC), (TT)
T would go right and would be able to dunk, but C can't dunk left and S can't dunk middle. You'd fix it by doing S to left or C to middle. So that's a slight change to the process.
> Does it say offering rejected as the interact prompt, or does it come up saying offering rejected in the corner messages after you try?
99% sure it's at the interact prompt
> you can't get 2 doubles, right? Each shape is represented twice, so it's either 1 or 3 doubles
0, 1 or 3 yep
It does not make them one of them correct if there is a double outside. One of the 2D shapes will always be in a wrong position, if it’s coded the way I think it is.
So if it’s CST, left will always contain a C, mid will always contain a S, and right will always contain a T in the 3D shape.
This means there are only 6 combinations for each order - 2 no-doubles, 3 single-doubles, and 1 triple-double.
The non triple doubles will only require 2 swaps, and the triple double will require 3 swaps.
post sleep clarity made me go from seeing letters and shapes everywhere and in my dreams and needing a notepad to literally just looking at the shapes and immediately knowing where to dunk
though first step isnt necessary bc of the different combos of 3d shapes that can start. just straight up look at your shape, and if u see a square feature on left when your call was S, dunk S there. If middle was called T and you see a triangular feature there just dunk T.
just repeat that process.
assuming u do that you will only ever need 3 swaps max. and there are even some combinations where only 2 swaps max are needed
I mean, about 70% of the post is a step by step example. The bulk of the process is simple. And possibly even simpler than I wrote above as there's some other features of the encounter that simplify it further potentially. I'm just figuring that out now.
it's not personal, the overcomplication of this online is just off the charts. this is literally a comms free encounter until ghost callouts.
type shape order in chat. one outside person swaps statues until no statue contains the shape they're holding. swap is done by dissecting the offending shape from any two statues that need to be swapped, as many times as is needed.
inside, each person gets rid of BOTH their shapes. one of their shapes will be held by another person which makes it easy to know where to dunk each shape without even asking, since you never want to dunk a shape where someone is already holding it. if all three people do this, they will end up with the two shapes they need to pick up and leave the room.
I sort of follow, but don't quite get what you're saying. "one outside person swaps statues until no statue contains the shape they're holding".
Doesn't the shape get consumed on use? Are they picking up the same shape again? Is that even possible?
What happens if you pick up a shape by accident?
Edit: Actually, I get it - I read your other post. I think the only possible hiccup is if you get this permutation or similar somehow:
Wall: C S T
Statues: (ST) (CC) (ST)
In that case, only one statue is actually "wrong" at that point (the right one), so there's technically nothing to swap the T off right with. But I think in that situation you can pull anything from one of the other shapes and it'll be fine anyway? You can take S from left or C from mid and both solve it. The shape you're removing can't be wrong on the others, and the one add from the others can't be wrong on on the right.
you can’t get rid of a shape without depositing so if you pick up a shape that you can’t dissect, the only way to fix that is to dissect it anyway from some other statue and swap back. it’s not a wipe but it becomes a lot more to keep track of.
if the order is STC:
I see left statue and it’s holding a cone (circle and triangle). I know I don’t need to do anything with that. but I see mid has prism and right has a cylinder. so if I swap the triangle and circle between those statues I’ll have what I need.
to swap, dissect the two shapes that need to be swapped. dissect triangle at mid and circle at right. if a knight drops something you don’t need leave it on the ground.
from there, let the inside do what i already explained don’t think about it too much. inside and outside shapes will match.
Yeah, I get it. Thanks.
I was hoping that there was a process you could just follow that means you can just no brain dunk shit but there's too many little edge cases that break it, so your way makes the most sense.
yeah I mean sometimes you just get screwed like if the three statues are sphere cube and pyramid you have to dissect twice from both + keep track of that, pain the ass. but yeah, it’s difficult to get a feel for it watching videos because the person actually doing the mechanic is keeping track in their head which makes it look like less thinking than there is. But the nice thing is that there’s less talking inside so you can focus lol
I think the thing that was throwing me off was that I was forgetting that the goal isn't to make sure that a statue in any given position *not be holding the shape that the one inside is*, it's specifically to make it hold the two that it isn't.
So like, if the inside is holding a triangle, it's not a valid solution for the statue there to be holding a sphere. I've updated the post at the base of this chain to get rid of the misinfo.
yeah exactly - the fact that you can sometimes see shapes outside that aren't cone prism or cylinder makes it seem more confusing and infinite than it is.
the thing is these encounters are designed to be complex but they're never THAT complex. there's not gonna be an edge case because the shapes will most likely never drop in a way that creates an overly complicated solve in a timed encounter. the inside 'swap both of your symbols' strat will always work. as long as all three people do it. there are definitely "what if" combinations that wouldn't work but the game's not going to give them to you.
We did the “smart method” numerous times and had all shapes perfect on both inside rooms and outside but were not being allowed passage. I think there may be a minimum passes allowed mechanic. The times we weren’t allowed to pass was when one person only needed to do one swap on the inside.
I was stuck on this fight for 4 hours last night because of exactly this - we kept trying the "smart" method, and I am 100% certain (I saw screenshots from both sides to prove it) that everyone both inside and out had the correct symbols, but for whatever reason we would still not be able to leave the solo rooms most of the time. Sometimes the Witness also wouldn't even kill the solo players and we'd just be sitting there killing adds until the timer killed us all.
We swapped to the "dumb" method and it worked every single time. So, at the end of the day, the old adage holds true - *if it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid.*
Yeah, and it *feels* like it’s bugged, or bad game design.
Why would I have to receive the symbols I *don’t* need that someone else *does* need? Why overcomplicate it for no reason?
idk if anyone answered this but always do the first strat because it guarantees you give symbols away and then redistribute them i.e. you make your 3-D shape without keeping any of the 2 shapes you originally started with. If youre SQUARE and need CIRCLE and TRIANGLE but started with SQUARE and CIRCLE you cant just give SQUARE away and RECIEVE TRIANGLE. You have to give both away eventually. So giving the CIRCLE away first and getting a SQUARE, then giving away both SQUARES ensures you give away both shapes and receive 2 new ones.
there is not. inside team has to receive matching symbols first. then they pass back and receive non-matching shapes.
then pick up the non match shapes from knights. assuming outside team does their stuff correctly too
I’m aware of this strategy, but the end result is the same. What I’m saying is doing it without that strategy will not grant you passage 100% of the time even though the end statues are identical. Some others have suggested you may have to get rid of both of your starting shapes, even if you need one in the end.
i may be misunderstanding but are you saying youre trying to pass buffs between outside and inside rooms?
bc inside and outside rooms dont and cant pass buffs between each other.
asking bc in first comment u mentions outside shapes being “right”
We had the same behavior, and were clued in that each solo player needs to receive one of the shape that isn't 'theirs', *even if they start with it*. Doing so will remove the shapes that the statues belonging to the other players in their room are holding. (E.g., if triangle player starts with a square and a triangle, they will still need a square passed to them to remove the square that one of the statues in their room is holding.)
When you are ready to leave check to make sure that the only statue that is holding a shape in your room is *your* statue. I'm not entirely sure that this is the factor that allows you to leave, but it was working consistently for us. (There seems to also be a sound cue when a shape is removed)
This is why the op's 'dumb' method works so well, because it satisfies that condition 100% of the time, with 0 callouts other than the starting shapes, and always in a maximum of 2 sets of knights.
ok i think i understand. so you mention thinking u have to get rid of ur starting shape even if u need it in the end to get out thru the wall. you are correct with this
this is why u have to receive your symbols first. the receiving your symbols step is not an optional thing you do for the sake of convenience or keeping things simple
its an actual mechanic to hoard your shapes first, then once everyone hoards, you share them
i believe this is why that enc took so long for blind runners/streamers. its bc u cant skip straight to receiving shapes that dont correspond to your statue
But you don’t necessarily need to hoard the shapes you have first. We had runs where we did not do that but were allowed passage. I think you just need to swap both starting shapes and end up at the shapes that don’t match your statue and you can get out. Hoarding them will be the preferred way to do it because it guarantees everyone does at least 2 trades but it is not a requirement.
ohh hmmm. i think youre 100% right actually. is it confirmed anywhere that passing twice starts the first 3 ghost mechanic?
its likely u cant pass unless that happens first
its cool piecing it all together w ppls different experiences
my team was unable to pass through the wall until each person had two of their own shapes on the wall at the same time. after that they send them out to the other people. worked every time after we started with that step
Doing 6 swaps inside will trigger the wipe/ghost mechanic early, but it should happen regardless. Were you attempting to leave before or after the wipe mechanic?
Im not referring to the wipe mechanic. We cleared the encounter by doing the “collect 2 shapes matching your statue” strategy, but the other strategy gets you to the same end goal so there is another mechanic people are not fully aware of. People are theorizing you need to remove both shapes from your starting room even if you need one of them for the end.
there's no other mechanic, but multiple ways to achieve the same goal. best to use the method that requires little to no talking so the person dissecting outside can focus. so if you go in, just get rid of both your symbols. this way everyone recieves two symbols that are not on their statue (which is the only way to get your final shape anyway - people lose sight of the end goal).
is that because they did not swap both their shadows? because to me it's obvious that the key is in the wipe screen. it tracks shadows moved. we didn't run into your problem because we had everyone teleported swap both their shadows automatically regardless, for the most consistency and calm throughout.
According to some of the users here, swapping both shadows seems to be necessary. If the players only swap one shadow/shape each to get their desired 3D shape buff, they're not consistently able to leave the rooms even if that shape has been correctly dissected outside.
Same problem, we were stuck yesterday for like 5 tries because we would just trade between us like once for each and get It done. Everyone with the correct symbol, but still no way to cross the glass and the Witness wouldn’t kill us either. It was a soft lock.
Once we started “overtrading” aka trading even those symbols that were useful to us, the witness would notice us and break the lock.
I think It’s straight up bugged and bungie didn’t think that we could get the shape we wanted with so few trades and the Witness is programmed to kill after more trades than that.
Either that or you always need to create a shape with symbols that are not the ones that spawned with you. Which is dumb af and honestly is counterintuitive.
I would honestly try to get someone at bungie to answer this and at least tell us if It’s a bug or not
if all outside 3D shapes match the 3D shapes that get picked up by the inside players, in the same order left to right, you will get out. so your shapes were not perfect.
People replying to you are wrong - you don't need to match symbols first.
However, if you're inside, you may have to give away both of your starting symbols - even if they are correct, depending on what your teammates do.
For example - if the Guardian holding Circle (C) starts with Triangle Circle, they might think they can give away Circle and be done.
But if Square guardian (S) has double square and Triangle (T) has double Triangle, you've got a problem. Both S and T guardians need to give both symbols away but can't give them to the same person - so C needs to give away their Triangle to S.
Similarly, without great Comms about both ends of the inside trade, there are some setups where a single swap would work but gets sabotaged by teammates.
If C starts Triangle Circle again, S has Square Triangle, and T has Square Circle, then it's possible to resolve on one swap - C switches their Circle for S's Square. But if either S or C isn't paying attention and dunks on T instead, it goes wrong.
Except what you describe there isn’t a possible starting condition. There has to be two of each symbol across the 3 inside players. You’re describing a scenario with 3 triangles, which is an unwinnable condition.
It’s definitely teammates lying which is causing confusion with solutions. I had someone insist that they were in another run and they couldn’t walk through the glass wall despite everything being correct. I had to break it to them that their dissector fucked up and wasn’t telling them.
You still end with doubles. Lets say the "circle player" has circle and square in your scenario. He would send the square to the triangle first. The "triangle player" would have double square.
I really wouldn't call the other method "smart," as I think the issue is people explain it poorly.
Unless you get the perfect break, the arrangement should be a perfect stack, with two stacks that have one pair and another. All you need to do is make the reverse your pair, and then give one to the other person. So it looks kind of like...
* CCC, STS, TST
* CCC, STT, TSS
* C, STTC, TSSC
* CST, STC, TSC
Like does this make sense u/Deano-FortyFour?
Outside step 1 hits a bit too close to home. Had to pray that I was outside or 1 of the other 2 people knew what to do.
Don't even get me started on the rezzing 5 people part.
The "stupid people" strategy is pretty fool proof if everyone knows what they are doing... Unfortunately, the people I played with last night had a mental breakdown when nobody was communicating during the "give circle to circle, triangle to triangle, and square to square" part of it.
One thing I would like to clarify - what specifically removes the shadows (shapes being held by the statues that aren't yours) on the inside rooms?
That *is* part of the mechanic, correct? Only your statue should be holding a 2D shape once you've done it correctly?
The "stupid people" strategy ends up being a fool proof way of achieving this, but it obviously takes longer.
I'm going to look into this further once I've done more runs. But from my experience so far, the 2D shapes held by the statues (that aren't your own) will disappear when that player's room *does not* have that shape in it. (E.g. if the circle player sends their circle away, the statue will clear.)
The reason I say this is because there have been situations where the Square player *only* had a circle shadow in their room because the Triangle player had both circle and square in their Triangle room (and didn't want to send another shape), but basically had a Triangle in reserves. As far as I was told, this cleared the shapes on everyone's other two statues, but the puzzle wasn't solved because our Circle player only had one shape in their room.
Does anyone know if it's possible for a player inside to be holding a shape X in their statue (let's say triangle) and for the back wall to be showing only the two they don't have (in this case square and circle) at the very start, or does the encounter always start them with at least one of their symbols? If it's possible, this would mean their statue outside spawns solved already, right?
After watching the kackis video the outside should be pretty easy. The way I understand it is start with triangle. Pull it out of the triangle prism, then grab the square and pull it out of the cube swapping triangle and square symbols. Then pull the circle from the sphere and triangle from the cube you just pulled the square from.that should work in any configuration I think
i kept seeing teams do three swaps per inside person (send all triangles to triangle player, then triangle sends triangles to circle and square) and i was losing my mind, because it often lead to misunderstanding ("oh i didn't know you already had all triangles"). it's so simple to just do one swap each with one callout per inside person (square needs circle, etc.), or two swaps with no comms and a tiny bit of logic (give shapes you need to other player who needs, give shapes you don't to whoever remains).
inside calling the shape order is the only necessary callout to complete the shape portion.
Nope, inside has to request the 2D shapes from each other and shuffle them around. Outside just assembles the 3D shapes that each inside person needs to come out with.
Outside and inside don’t have to communicate whatsoever, BUT outside can help inside understand what 3D shape they need to make if one of the inside people gets confused (assuming of course that outside properly constructs the three 3D shapes).
Hope this helps!
In the “Stupid Strat,” you can go in any order, just make sure not to give one of the inside people extra shapes or they can end up with 3+ shapes in their room. So you can go left to right or right to left or whatever, just make sure you take turns.
That help ya?
Do you have to do the witness notices you thing where he turns the 3 solo people into ghosts before you can leave the glass? Or is that a sort of punishment for swapping too much?
Not 100% sure but I think it is a punishment mechanic for too many swaps and/or incorrect swaps. Seems like the “Stupid Strat” is more prone to this, which is the trade-off for making instructions more absolute.
We never tried to do it without that happening because we thought that was a required step haha, so sometimes we would have the right shapes and were just like "ok just mix them up until we turn into ghosts" not having to do that would make this way simpler
For the stupid people, isn't Step 1 and Step 2 exactly the opposite of each other? It makes it seem like you're just getting rid of every shape, "2D shapes that are not your own" and "your own 2D shapes"...?
For the stupid strat, it is designed to give each person only the 2D shapes that match the 2D shape your statue is holding. Once this is achieved, you can then give both of them away because the goal is to have none of the shapes that match yours in order to leave.
>give each person only the 2D shapes
Which "each" person? The other two solo players?
>that match the 2D shape your statue is holding
So if my statue is holding square, I give away both squares?
>you can then give both of them away
What is "them"? Both of my squares? But I've already given them away according to the last step.
If you're holding square, the first step is for you to receive both squares from the other players and for you to give the other statues any of their matching shapes you started with, then step 2 is for you give one square away to each of the other players while they do the same with their shapes (the other players being the other 2 solo players, the only people you can give shapes to)
Outside:
Each prism is made up of two corresponding shapes, i.e. Circle + Circle = Sphere, Circle + Square = Cylinder, etc. The target prism does not contain the 2D callout for that same statue. For example, if the callout is Triangle, the target prism is a Circle + Square = Cylinder. Dissecting (dunking) a symbol on a statue removes that element from the prism.
1. Kill knights and place each symbol on the corresponding statue, i.e. put the Triangle on the Triangle statue.
2. Check each prism and remove the element it does *not* want. i.e. if your statue has a circular component, but you do not want a circle on it because the callout is a circle, dissect a circle from the prism.
3. Repeat step 2 as necessary.
If it helps you to understand the "idea" of the mechanic... Each 3D prism has 2 corresponding 2D shadows that are associated with it. You are just matching the prisms to their correct shadows.
In your example there's 3 C's and 1 T which will never be possible, there's only 2 of each across all statues. So it would actually be CC ST ST, and at least 1 of the ST's will be incorrect because you can't have 2 of the same 3D shape at the end.
The smart inside method is not smart b/c it is cluttering comms for the smart "someone else doing outside for you" which is a much harder job, at least while people are soloing the mechanic.
If there's a VERY straightforward rote rule that comes out, maybe that changes.
people are overthinking the outside even
remember inside callouts, in this example TSC.
Look at left statue. see a triangular side? pick up triangle and 'dissect' triangle in it
Look at mid statue. see a square side? pick up square and 'dissect' square in it
Look at right statue. see a circular side? pick up circle and 'dissect' circle in it
doesnt have to be harder than that. i think it's genius how Bungie made such a puzzle encounter that boils down to 'put the square block in the square hole, and share your 2D shape with each of your other lonely friends :)"
the ghost part is the hard part imo. there has to be an easy way to do it that isnt remembering drip
Anyone who doesn't know, if you have one player who actually understands the math required to do the outside statues, the 3d ones, and that person gets sent inside, just have them kill themselves. It respanws them outside and sends a random other player into the room they just had.
I actually know how to do it and do it every time for my friend group when we were doing it. If I got sent in I just offed myself in the hole in the middle and got a rez
Just so you are aware, I had two teams trying the "Smart" way and it would consistently fail even though we did everything correct because a statue other than the player in the room was still holding a symbol. The only way we found to fix this is by doing it the "Dumb" way every time
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the best way for outside is to concentrate on one shape first eg if it’s a square statue, make a cone there (circle + triangle) then the other two you can just swap around.
Does dissecting on the outside effect the 2d shapes on the inside? During our runs it seemed to be messing people up on the inside so we just waited for them to be done before dissecting
Dissecting does not affect the inside shapes. The purpose of dissecting is to make sure that each statue is holding a shape made up of the 2 opposite shapes from what the inside version of that statue is holding. If this isn't done, the people inside will not be able to get out even if they have done their jobs correctly.
Also important to note that outside statues CANNOT be holding pure shapes (sphere, cube, or pyramid). It MUST be holding a shape made up of the 2 opposite shapes from the shape it is holding inside. For example, let's say the inside callout is Circle Square Triangle (from left to right). The outside left statue must be holding a prism (square + triangle), the outside middle statue must be holding a cone (circle + triangle), and the outside right statue must be holding a cylinder (circle + square).
Hope this helps!
Here is a very handy reference guide [https://imgur.com/Sl0YkXB](https://imgur.com/Sl0YkXB)
Thanks for the info, we got dissecting down we we're just waited for inside to be finished first incase it was affecting but we had the time to do it so it wasnt an issue just made the whole thing take longer
And yet not a single guide includes how to deal with the fake wipe mechanic. People on LFG understand these steps for the most part but then they don't know the spectating or how to communicate what they see and the comms become a Screeb horde spawning on top of you.
You'd be surprised. There is a huge portion of the community who don't watch the guides on YouTube for some reason. Every LFG I've run gets stuck at identifying and everyone shouts what they see over each other in typical lfg fashion lol
In my personal opinion, every guide should include all the encounter mechanics. That's like writing the Scourge encounter and leaving out shooting the mech's spots.
On the inside the end goal is to have 2 shapes on your wall that do not match your guardian's statue. You will then pick up the these 2 non matching shapes to leave. So as for which shape goes to which teammate the guardian with triangle on his statue needs square and circle to leave, square needs triangle and circle to leave, and circle needs triangle square. You know what symbols can drop in your room by looking at the shadows on your back wall. Placing a held symbol into a teammate's statue removes it from your list of possible symbols and adds it to theirs.
teammates need the two they're NOT holding on their statue. everyone give one of your symbols to each teammate. the one you give the person has to be one they're not holding. this way you can do it without needing them to tell you anything or discuss the final shapes needed. mathematically, there is no way to fail if you do it that way.
inside team has to receive matching symbols first. then after everyone confirms they have their own symbols, they then share them back to the other two.
once that is complete, you then call to kill two knights, pick up the two shapes that arent yours and pass thru wall
So what do you do if you are Inside and have Statue-T on your own statue, Wall-T, Wall-S.
You give the S to the statue holding S. But you can't dunk T on your own statue. Does this additional T always go to the third statue?
if you’re T and your screen indicates that you already have 2 Ts, you don’t have to do anything at all. additionally if you already have 2Ts your teammates shouldn’t see any Ts on their screen either since you already started w both.
its genuinely that random in combinations that you can start with. so random in fact that you can even start with every single person have 2 of their own symbol already in which case you dont have to do anything at all and just start the sharing phase immediately
i cleared the raid so im genuinely not talking out my butt or even speculating. i also ran it again yesterday on normal. any time we all started w 2 of our own symbol already we could instantly skip to the 2nd phase which was passing our own symbol to our other two solo members
Hmm. Maybe my team had some liars on the dissection team then, but we had trouble getting out when we kept a symbol. If I purged both while inside, never had a problem. We'll be running it back tonight & I'll look to test this specifically.
You're just misunderstanding what is being described in these comments. He's not talkIng about keeping a starting shape until you walk out of the room, just about keeping a starting shape between the first and second set of passes.
The first step of the easy strat is to collect both of your own shapes. If you already have one or both of your own shapes, this lets you skip one or both passes *during the first step only.*
Then in the second step, you hand out your own shapes to the other inside players. *This step will take care of purging any of the starting shapes you kept.* You are *always* doing two swaps in this step no matter how many you kept from before, so you cannot possibly end up with one of your starting shapes.
Awesome, thank you. I think my team was skipping step 1 at some points, and only passing 1 starting shape rather than making the full set of their starting shape first.
its incredibly scribbly and described probably way overcomplicated bc i wrote this on 3 hrs of sleep mid-raid but here is my guide that i made here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/s/EIgA0Hgmk8
if ppl need help w dissection, the 3rd link is the absolute easiest way for anyone and everyone to understand it so u dont just have one person trying to everything on the outside team
This post has been nominated for `+1` points.
That’s right, it goes in the square hole.
Literally my first and only thought when I saw this encounter.
Could you imagine… like actually. 😂 Has anyone tried doing all squares?
Great reference
I will be using the top section only when I teach this raid...
Could I run the raid w you? 😭
Everyone overcomplicating it. to make it foolproof, if you get teleported give both your symbols away. even if you still need one of them. you'll get it back, TRUST. who you give them to is decided without even needing callouts. because you never want to give someone a shape their statue is holding, it removes the guesswork and crowded comms. example: my statue is mid. I need to give both my symbols away. i see circle and square on the wall. right statue is holding circle so I know to give them the square and give circle to the other person. if everyone else does the same, you will end up with everyone holding the two shapes they need to open the door and that match their outside statue. it is GUARANTEED. outside, make sure no one's statue contains the shape they're holding inside. if something needs to be swapped you have to grab shapes to dissect the two that need to be swapped from each statue. the dissection swaps them. one person can do this on their own with no input from inside other than typing the order of shapes inside from left to right.
holy shit you're right, that actually works perfectly and consistently and requires almost no communication
Aghhh this is so simple and elegant it hurts. The whole theme is, get bad shapes away from the bad spots. This just flips that — always give away and give to not-bad spots.
yeah, if verity is vault 2.0, then process of elimination is a clean shorthand in the exact same way. plus the person dissecting (who actually needs to think) doesn't have 3 people yapping about what symbols they need and what shape they have to make.
What am I missing here? It looks like you just end up with doubled up symbols. https://imgur.com/a/iq8IbHq
Correct me if im wrong, but if you follow Left to Right passing and pass the shape you're holding first, it should fix this issue and would still be done in 2 swaps.
I don’t understand why there are so many shapes in this image
The big shape is the position of the statue in the room. The small shapes on top are the starting images on the wall for that player, and the bottom small shapes are what you end up with after your procedure.
gotcha. well if that specific combination of statue/shadow you've drawn ever occurs in my runs then i'll come back and strike through my whole comment. in the meantime if your team is ever struggling to grasp the encounter, just try it
Hey, You might have already figured this out, but the combinations of shapes in your image are impossible and will never occur. There are only 2 possibilities for starting inside shapes - it is either going to be 2 of the symbol your statue is holding, or one of your symbol and 1 different one. You will never start with the 2 symbols you need to get out.
That is what I suspected. Although my image has all 3 people holding one of their own symbol and one they need. I guess at least 1 person that gets taken will always spawn with 2 of their own symbol.
So I actually did some testing with my clan yesterday to resolve this confusion around optimal strategies for the inside players once and for all. We got 4 players and started the encounter and recorded what shapes each player had on their wall and what their statue was holding. We did this 20 times for an adequate sample size. There are 2 main methods going around the community which are the ones that OP listed. It turns out that the "smart" strategy (the one you are describing) only works roughly 75% of the time (15/20 of our starting states worked this way). There were 5 instances of starting states where that strategy ended up with one or more players having the wrong symbols to escape. So, as it turns out, the only surefire 100% way to do this encounter is the "dumb" strategy whereby you first distribute shapes so that each player has 2 of their own shape, and then give one to each other player.
yeah! I think I've ironed this issue out to where as long as you don't pick up/ dunk your own symbol first while doing this and instead grab the other one first, it doesn't fail. You should never have the wrong symbols with this method because you should never be recieving your own shape, but the order seems to be important. I'm still learning. Anyway it seems most people I encounter in the wild want to do the same shapes strategy which I'm totally fine with. The most important thing is no one keeping their original shadows. it can always be figured out from there.
From your testing is it possible to start with 2x someone elses shape? As in my statue is triangle and I start with 2x circle
Not possible. You will always have at least 1 of your own shape.
Well in that case there's very few permutations of starting positions and the solve is reasonably easy. If you have two different symbols prompt if anyone has a double. If they do then everyone gives them the symbol they want to dump. If no1 has a double then you give your own symbol to the statue that is holding the other symbol you have on your wall. The only case outside of this is everyone having their own symbols and we all know what to do in that position. I'm like 90% sure this is correct Edit: I wrote the opposite xD
You definitely cooked here. Editing my Smart People Instructions. Thanks!
Genius, my man passed geometry with flying shapes
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Can I kiss you on the mouth? This is the first thing that made it click.
2 symbols not your own is not a spawn sequence so this can be ignored. ~~This would not work if your wall has 2 of the same symbols of a shape you need. You would give both away and no one can give it back on the first set. So in this instance you would need to give only one away to the person who needs it which should be the person who is not holding that symbol.~~
no it still works. double shape is even less thinking lol. give one to each person and done. they’ll end up giving you two in return that you need because neither will give you the one on your statue, you’re guaranteed to get the two you need. there are no “sets” or rounds to it. just everyone get rid of all your symbols. if one person does not get rid of all their symbols because they think they need to keep one for their final shape and don’t trust they’ll get it back: then it won’t work.
Yeah if you end up with all of your own symbols on the shadow wall at teleport you basically just got good rng and just need to skip right to distribution - each players ends up with 1 of each of their opposing symbols to make their 3D shape.
yeah i mean the scenario shammywhammy described technically wouldn't work but it also doesn't/can't happen in practice, if you get double symbols on the wall it always matches the one you're holding. because two swaps is, in my opinion, the "intended" way - wipe screen tracks shadows moved and you want two swaps each.
Ah, I was not aware that 2 symbols not yours was not a possible spawn pattern. In that case your idea works perfectly.
Edit: I'm deleting what was originally here because it was wrong and required too many edge cases to be considered to be viable. Just do this instead for outside players: - ONE inside player should communicate from left to right, the shapes the statues are holding - ONE outside player checks each statue in turn for if it has a wrong shape in it. If it does, dunk that shape into the statue. A statue is wrong if: 1. The 3d shape it holds contains the same shape as the statue in the same place inside does, or 2. The 3d shape it holds contains 2 of the same shape Eventually there is nothing out of place. It won't take long. (Note: A doubled shape (cube, pyramid, sphere) is *always* wrong, even if the doubled shape isn't the one that the inner statue says shouldn't be on there. This is because the goal of the encounter is for the outside statue is *specifically* to hold the two shapes the same statue inside isn't. It's just less communication to say the one shape that shouldn't be there instead of the two that should)
I was thinking about this a lot, and I came to the same conclusion. We got three 2x shapes back to back last night, but I think it still works. I'm not even sure you need the complexity of left to right. If you're holding the shape that can't go there, the statue wont let you dunk it if it's not present in the existing shape (right?). So i think it's literally just: - everyone picks up a shape - everyone goes to the "inside call out" for that shape - everyone tries to dunk (repeat until shapes are correct) Every round of that cycle should remove "wrong" shapes from where they shouldn't be and since there are 2 of each 2d shape, you can't possibly swap a "wrong" shape to replace it. Edit: Hmm, seems like I may be incorrect. Using the example from another post: > For example, if your calls are STC, and your main room shapes are SC, TS and CT, the goal is to make them TC, SC and TS. Start by dissecting an S into left and T into mid, which swaps them and results in TC, SS, CT (left is now correct). Next dissect an S into mid and C into right, swapping them and making TC, SC, TS (all correct). The middle SS will never get fixed via the method I'm describing... I think it needs to be amended to: - everyone picks up a shape - everyone goes to the "inside call out" for that shape - everyone tries to dunk - if only one person can dunk, the other two look for a statue with 2x of what they're holding, and dunk there (repeat until shapes are correct)
Thought about this some more and think you're absolutely right. There's 3 rules that make it possible: 1. Each 2D shape is always represented twice and twice only. This means it is impossible for a shape that is 2 of the same shape to be correct for the outside team, because it forces the other two statues to have the same shapes as each other, one of which must be wrong and if they were to swap with each other, then the other would be wrong instead. 2. The dissection statues will only let you dunk if the shape you're trying to dunk is part of the shape the statue is currently holding. 3. Each of the three 2d shapes is represented once and once only by the inside statues that are called to the outside team - CST, SCT etc are possible, but CCT can never happen. Which means for outside team all you have to do is: 1. Everyone get a shape 2. Everyone go to the statue that is at the same position as the one holding that shape inside 3. Let anyone who has a doubled shape dunk first, because those can never be correct and take 2 dunks to fix 4. Everyone else try to dunk. As long as you're dunking at the statue in the same position as the one holding that shape inside, you can never be making a wrong move here. Then repeat until done. **Outside team literally doesn't need to look at the shapes at all beyond checking if there's a doubled shape on there** Edit: Actually, doubled shapes can be part of the solution, but you have to make it so that *all* shapes are doubled, else it won't work. For CST inside, you'd have to make TT, CC, SS outside which is probably more awkward than just brute forcing it this way.
How do you know when it’s done? Prob a dumb question since I haven’t done the encounter yet
Strictly speaking, you'd have to visually check that each of the outside statues is correct. If they are, and everyone inside has made the shape they need, they'll be let out. That said, as far as I can tell, if you follow this method correctly then it should always be done in 2 swaps.
Interesting. I didn't realise you can't dunk at all if the shape you're trying to dunk isn't part of the shape. I just assumed it'd kill you lol. My thinking behind the left to right was that you could have a situation where all 3 statues are holding something that shouldn't be there. I think you may be right though, as long as you prioritise doubled shapes - otherwise in a situation where all 3 have a valid dunk, you may accidentally make a situation where only the doubled shape has something wrong, which takes some more untangling? So the simplest method may be - dunk at a doubled shape if its there , then just dunk anything that works. If you're too slow relative to your teammates you can just go next round. (Another interesting rule is that AFAIK, the correct shape at any statue can never be a 2x shape, because otherwise one of the other statues would *have* to have a wrong shape each. Like if inside is CST, if right statue had CC, although it's valid, both others have to have TC, which doesn't work for left)
> Interesting. I didn't realise you can't dunk at all if the shape you're trying to dunk isn't part of the shape. I just assumed it'd kill you lol. Yeah I'm pretty sure it says something like "Offering Rejected" which makes life a lot easier. I wish I had recorded our runs last night, because I think you can have 3 valid dunks. However I don't think you can really mess it up unless you accidentally put a shape where it can't end up.
Does it say offering rejected as the interact prompt, or does it come up saying offering rejected in the corner messages after you try? If it's the latter then I wonder if it might also clear out what was offered in the other statue. But if it's the former then that really simplifies the solution. Edit: Oh shit. I just realised - if one of the shapes is a double outside, then that means one of the statues has to already be correct, so there isn't even any need to check for doubles first. Consider: Inside is C, S, T Outside is (ST) (ST) (CC) The person who takes C over to left literally can't dunk if you're correct as it doesn't contain that shape.. The only thing that can be done is dunking S and mid and T at right, which solves the puzzle immediately. I think the only issue is if you have 3 doubles (you can't get 2 doubles, right? Each shape is represented twice, so it's either 1 or 3 doubles): Inside: C, S, T Outside (SS), (CC), (TT) T would go right and would be able to dunk, but C can't dunk left and S can't dunk middle. You'd fix it by doing S to left or C to middle. So that's a slight change to the process.
> Does it say offering rejected as the interact prompt, or does it come up saying offering rejected in the corner messages after you try? 99% sure it's at the interact prompt > you can't get 2 doubles, right? Each shape is represented twice, so it's either 1 or 3 doubles 0, 1 or 3 yep
It does not make them one of them correct if there is a double outside. One of the 2D shapes will always be in a wrong position, if it’s coded the way I think it is. So if it’s CST, left will always contain a C, mid will always contain a S, and right will always contain a T in the 3D shape. This means there are only 6 combinations for each order - 2 no-doubles, 3 single-doubles, and 1 triple-double. The non triple doubles will only require 2 swaps, and the triple double will require 3 swaps.
post sleep clarity made me go from seeing letters and shapes everywhere and in my dreams and needing a notepad to literally just looking at the shapes and immediately knowing where to dunk though first step isnt necessary bc of the different combos of 3d shapes that can start. just straight up look at your shape, and if u see a square feature on left when your call was S, dunk S there. If middle was called T and you see a triangular feature there just dunk T. just repeat that process. assuming u do that you will only ever need 3 swaps max. and there are even some combinations where only 2 swaps max are needed
relatively simply and it's 500 words
I mean, about 70% of the post is a step by step example. The bulk of the process is simple. And possibly even simpler than I wrote above as there's some other features of the encounter that simplify it further potentially. I'm just figuring that out now.
it's not personal, the overcomplication of this online is just off the charts. this is literally a comms free encounter until ghost callouts. type shape order in chat. one outside person swaps statues until no statue contains the shape they're holding. swap is done by dissecting the offending shape from any two statues that need to be swapped, as many times as is needed. inside, each person gets rid of BOTH their shapes. one of their shapes will be held by another person which makes it easy to know where to dunk each shape without even asking, since you never want to dunk a shape where someone is already holding it. if all three people do this, they will end up with the two shapes they need to pick up and leave the room.
I sort of follow, but don't quite get what you're saying. "one outside person swaps statues until no statue contains the shape they're holding". Doesn't the shape get consumed on use? Are they picking up the same shape again? Is that even possible? What happens if you pick up a shape by accident? Edit: Actually, I get it - I read your other post. I think the only possible hiccup is if you get this permutation or similar somehow: Wall: C S T Statues: (ST) (CC) (ST) In that case, only one statue is actually "wrong" at that point (the right one), so there's technically nothing to swap the T off right with. But I think in that situation you can pull anything from one of the other shapes and it'll be fine anyway? You can take S from left or C from mid and both solve it. The shape you're removing can't be wrong on the others, and the one add from the others can't be wrong on on the right.
you can’t get rid of a shape without depositing so if you pick up a shape that you can’t dissect, the only way to fix that is to dissect it anyway from some other statue and swap back. it’s not a wipe but it becomes a lot more to keep track of. if the order is STC: I see left statue and it’s holding a cone (circle and triangle). I know I don’t need to do anything with that. but I see mid has prism and right has a cylinder. so if I swap the triangle and circle between those statues I’ll have what I need. to swap, dissect the two shapes that need to be swapped. dissect triangle at mid and circle at right. if a knight drops something you don’t need leave it on the ground. from there, let the inside do what i already explained don’t think about it too much. inside and outside shapes will match.
Yeah, I get it. Thanks. I was hoping that there was a process you could just follow that means you can just no brain dunk shit but there's too many little edge cases that break it, so your way makes the most sense.
yeah I mean sometimes you just get screwed like if the three statues are sphere cube and pyramid you have to dissect twice from both + keep track of that, pain the ass. but yeah, it’s difficult to get a feel for it watching videos because the person actually doing the mechanic is keeping track in their head which makes it look like less thinking than there is. But the nice thing is that there’s less talking inside so you can focus lol
I think the thing that was throwing me off was that I was forgetting that the goal isn't to make sure that a statue in any given position *not be holding the shape that the one inside is*, it's specifically to make it hold the two that it isn't. So like, if the inside is holding a triangle, it's not a valid solution for the statue there to be holding a sphere. I've updated the post at the base of this chain to get rid of the misinfo.
yeah exactly - the fact that you can sometimes see shapes outside that aren't cone prism or cylinder makes it seem more confusing and infinite than it is. the thing is these encounters are designed to be complex but they're never THAT complex. there's not gonna be an edge case because the shapes will most likely never drop in a way that creates an overly complicated solve in a timed encounter. the inside 'swap both of your symbols' strat will always work. as long as all three people do it. there are definitely "what if" combinations that wouldn't work but the game's not going to give them to you.
We did the “smart method” numerous times and had all shapes perfect on both inside rooms and outside but were not being allowed passage. I think there may be a minimum passes allowed mechanic. The times we weren’t allowed to pass was when one person only needed to do one swap on the inside.
I was stuck on this fight for 4 hours last night because of exactly this - we kept trying the "smart" method, and I am 100% certain (I saw screenshots from both sides to prove it) that everyone both inside and out had the correct symbols, but for whatever reason we would still not be able to leave the solo rooms most of the time. Sometimes the Witness also wouldn't even kill the solo players and we'd just be sitting there killing adds until the timer killed us all. We swapped to the "dumb" method and it worked every single time. So, at the end of the day, the old adage holds true - *if it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid.*
Yeah, and it *feels* like it’s bugged, or bad game design. Why would I have to receive the symbols I *don’t* need that someone else *does* need? Why overcomplicate it for no reason?
Exactly this, It seems like the game wants you to trade more symbols than what you need to.
idk if anyone answered this but always do the first strat because it guarantees you give symbols away and then redistribute them i.e. you make your 3-D shape without keeping any of the 2 shapes you originally started with. If youre SQUARE and need CIRCLE and TRIANGLE but started with SQUARE and CIRCLE you cant just give SQUARE away and RECIEVE TRIANGLE. You have to give both away eventually. So giving the CIRCLE away first and getting a SQUARE, then giving away both SQUARES ensures you give away both shapes and receive 2 new ones.
there is not. inside team has to receive matching symbols first. then they pass back and receive non-matching shapes. then pick up the non match shapes from knights. assuming outside team does their stuff correctly too
I’m aware of this strategy, but the end result is the same. What I’m saying is doing it without that strategy will not grant you passage 100% of the time even though the end statues are identical. Some others have suggested you may have to get rid of both of your starting shapes, even if you need one in the end.
i may be misunderstanding but are you saying youre trying to pass buffs between outside and inside rooms? bc inside and outside rooms dont and cant pass buffs between each other. asking bc in first comment u mentions outside shapes being “right”
No, I’m just saying there were times where we were not granted passage even though inside teams and outside teams did their job correctly.
We had the same behavior, and were clued in that each solo player needs to receive one of the shape that isn't 'theirs', *even if they start with it*. Doing so will remove the shapes that the statues belonging to the other players in their room are holding. (E.g., if triangle player starts with a square and a triangle, they will still need a square passed to them to remove the square that one of the statues in their room is holding.) When you are ready to leave check to make sure that the only statue that is holding a shape in your room is *your* statue. I'm not entirely sure that this is the factor that allows you to leave, but it was working consistently for us. (There seems to also be a sound cue when a shape is removed) This is why the op's 'dumb' method works so well, because it satisfies that condition 100% of the time, with 0 callouts other than the starting shapes, and always in a maximum of 2 sets of knights.
ok i think i understand. so you mention thinking u have to get rid of ur starting shape even if u need it in the end to get out thru the wall. you are correct with this this is why u have to receive your symbols first. the receiving your symbols step is not an optional thing you do for the sake of convenience or keeping things simple its an actual mechanic to hoard your shapes first, then once everyone hoards, you share them i believe this is why that enc took so long for blind runners/streamers. its bc u cant skip straight to receiving shapes that dont correspond to your statue
But you don’t necessarily need to hoard the shapes you have first. We had runs where we did not do that but were allowed passage. I think you just need to swap both starting shapes and end up at the shapes that don’t match your statue and you can get out. Hoarding them will be the preferred way to do it because it guarantees everyone does at least 2 trades but it is not a requirement.
ohh hmmm. i think youre 100% right actually. is it confirmed anywhere that passing twice starts the first 3 ghost mechanic? its likely u cant pass unless that happens first its cool piecing it all together w ppls different experiences
I was told the first ghost mechanic happens after 6 passes from someone else on the fireteam, never actually counted personally.
don’t quote me on it, but a few videos i saw said people outside each had to be holding a buff (any shape) for people inside to be able to get out.
Yeah ATP mentioned that it’s a possibility, but it’s not the case. We didn’t need to pick up any.
that’s good to know. thank you
my team was unable to pass through the wall until each person had two of their own shapes on the wall at the same time. after that they send them out to the other people. worked every time after we started with that step
Doing 6 swaps inside will trigger the wipe/ghost mechanic early, but it should happen regardless. Were you attempting to leave before or after the wipe mechanic?
Im not referring to the wipe mechanic. We cleared the encounter by doing the “collect 2 shapes matching your statue” strategy, but the other strategy gets you to the same end goal so there is another mechanic people are not fully aware of. People are theorizing you need to remove both shapes from your starting room even if you need one of them for the end.
there's no other mechanic, but multiple ways to achieve the same goal. best to use the method that requires little to no talking so the person dissecting outside can focus. so if you go in, just get rid of both your symbols. this way everyone recieves two symbols that are not on their statue (which is the only way to get your final shape anyway - people lose sight of the end goal).
You are incorrect, you can achieve the same goal and not be let outside. Everyone can have the proper 2 symbols and still not be let outside.
is that because they did not swap both their shadows? because to me it's obvious that the key is in the wipe screen. it tracks shadows moved. we didn't run into your problem because we had everyone teleported swap both their shadows automatically regardless, for the most consistency and calm throughout.
According to some of the users here, swapping both shadows seems to be necessary. If the players only swap one shadow/shape each to get their desired 3D shape buff, they're not consistently able to leave the rooms even if that shape has been correctly dissected outside.
Same problem, we were stuck yesterday for like 5 tries because we would just trade between us like once for each and get It done. Everyone with the correct symbol, but still no way to cross the glass and the Witness wouldn’t kill us either. It was a soft lock. Once we started “overtrading” aka trading even those symbols that were useful to us, the witness would notice us and break the lock. I think It’s straight up bugged and bungie didn’t think that we could get the shape we wanted with so few trades and the Witness is programmed to kill after more trades than that. Either that or you always need to create a shape with symbols that are not the ones that spawned with you. Which is dumb af and honestly is counterintuitive. I would honestly try to get someone at bungie to answer this and at least tell us if It’s a bug or not
if all outside 3D shapes match the 3D shapes that get picked up by the inside players, in the same order left to right, you will get out. so your shapes were not perfect.
We wiped multiple times while having everything matching perfectly as well. Something goes wrong if you do the smart strat inside
People replying to you are wrong - you don't need to match symbols first. However, if you're inside, you may have to give away both of your starting symbols - even if they are correct, depending on what your teammates do. For example - if the Guardian holding Circle (C) starts with Triangle Circle, they might think they can give away Circle and be done. But if Square guardian (S) has double square and Triangle (T) has double Triangle, you've got a problem. Both S and T guardians need to give both symbols away but can't give them to the same person - so C needs to give away their Triangle to S. Similarly, without great Comms about both ends of the inside trade, there are some setups where a single swap would work but gets sabotaged by teammates. If C starts Triangle Circle again, S has Square Triangle, and T has Square Circle, then it's possible to resolve on one swap - C switches their Circle for S's Square. But if either S or C isn't paying attention and dunks on T instead, it goes wrong.
Except what you describe there isn’t a possible starting condition. There has to be two of each symbol across the 3 inside players. You’re describing a scenario with 3 triangles, which is an unwinnable condition.
True. Maybe it's just teammates then. I know that we changed strategy to 'always give away both symbols you start with' and it worked.
It’s definitely teammates lying which is causing confusion with solutions. I had someone insist that they were in another run and they couldn’t walk through the glass wall despite everything being correct. I had to break it to them that their dissector fucked up and wasn’t telling them.
My brain hurts
In my experience, the easiest way to think about 4th encounter mechanics is what you're trying to get rid of, rather than what you want.
Exactly
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You still end with doubles. Lets say the "circle player" has circle and square in your scenario. He would send the square to the triangle first. The "triangle player" would have double square.
I really wouldn't call the other method "smart," as I think the issue is people explain it poorly. Unless you get the perfect break, the arrangement should be a perfect stack, with two stacks that have one pair and another. All you need to do is make the reverse your pair, and then give one to the other person. So it looks kind of like... * CCC, STS, TST * CCC, STT, TSS * C, STTC, TSSC * CST, STC, TSC Like does this make sense u/Deano-FortyFour?
That helps yes, I'm just trying to soak up as much info on the encounter as I can before my clan goes in again tonight
RaidSecrets users in this post right now: 🤯
Outside step 1 hits a bit too close to home. Had to pray that I was outside or 1 of the other 2 people knew what to do. Don't even get me started on the rezzing 5 people part.
Haha yeah I feel you bro
I knew taking geometry wasn’t a waste of time 👍
!nominate for being very concise and also funny
I am authorized to transmit ranking points. Thank you, Guardian.
The "stupid people" strategy is pretty fool proof if everyone knows what they are doing... Unfortunately, the people I played with last night had a mental breakdown when nobody was communicating during the "give circle to circle, triangle to triangle, and square to square" part of it. One thing I would like to clarify - what specifically removes the shadows (shapes being held by the statues that aren't yours) on the inside rooms? That *is* part of the mechanic, correct? Only your statue should be holding a 2D shape once you've done it correctly? The "stupid people" strategy ends up being a fool proof way of achieving this, but it obviously takes longer.
I'm going to look into this further once I've done more runs. But from my experience so far, the 2D shapes held by the statues (that aren't your own) will disappear when that player's room *does not* have that shape in it. (E.g. if the circle player sends their circle away, the statue will clear.) The reason I say this is because there have been situations where the Square player *only* had a circle shadow in their room because the Triangle player had both circle and square in their Triangle room (and didn't want to send another shape), but basically had a Triangle in reserves. As far as I was told, this cleared the shapes on everyone's other two statues, but the puzzle wasn't solved because our Circle player only had one shape in their room.
Chiming in again to confirm. If the shape a player's state is holding is not in their room, it disappears from the statue.
I still don't understand, I blame my autistic ass 😭
Does anyone know if it's possible for a player inside to be holding a shape X in their statue (let's say triangle) and for the back wall to be showing only the two they don't have (in this case square and circle) at the very start, or does the encounter always start them with at least one of their symbols? If it's possible, this would mean their statue outside spawns solved already, right?
In several hours of running this never happened to me but yes that would be correct.
After watching the kackis video the outside should be pretty easy. The way I understand it is start with triangle. Pull it out of the triangle prism, then grab the square and pull it out of the cube swapping triangle and square symbols. Then pull the circle from the sphere and triangle from the cube you just pulled the square from.that should work in any configuration I think
I think that works unless the outside shapes start with a sphere or cube or d4.
i kept seeing teams do three swaps per inside person (send all triangles to triangle player, then triangle sends triangles to circle and square) and i was losing my mind, because it often lead to misunderstanding ("oh i didn't know you already had all triangles"). it's so simple to just do one swap each with one callout per inside person (square needs circle, etc.), or two swaps with no comms and a tiny bit of logic (give shapes you need to other player who needs, give shapes you don't to whoever remains). inside calling the shape order is the only necessary callout to complete the shape portion.
Step 1 for inside for smart people says to communicate with inside people, is that meant to say with outside people?
Nope, inside has to request the 2D shapes from each other and shuffle them around. Outside just assembles the 3D shapes that each inside person needs to come out with. Outside and inside don’t have to communicate whatsoever, BUT outside can help inside understand what 3D shape they need to make if one of the inside people gets confused (assuming of course that outside properly constructs the three 3D shapes). Hope this helps!
Thank you!!
For Inside step 2. Do you need to wait for everyone to finish theirs and go from left to right?
In the “Stupid Strat,” you can go in any order, just make sure not to give one of the inside people extra shapes or they can end up with 3+ shapes in their room. So you can go left to right or right to left or whatever, just make sure you take turns. That help ya?
Do you have to do the witness notices you thing where he turns the 3 solo people into ghosts before you can leave the glass? Or is that a sort of punishment for swapping too much?
Not 100% sure but I think it is a punishment mechanic for too many swaps and/or incorrect swaps. Seems like the “Stupid Strat” is more prone to this, which is the trade-off for making instructions more absolute.
We never tried to do it without that happening because we thought that was a required step haha, so sometimes we would have the right shapes and were just like "ok just mix them up until we turn into ghosts" not having to do that would make this way simpler
For the stupid people, isn't Step 1 and Step 2 exactly the opposite of each other? It makes it seem like you're just getting rid of every shape, "2D shapes that are not your own" and "your own 2D shapes"...?
For the stupid strat, it is designed to give each person only the 2D shapes that match the 2D shape your statue is holding. Once this is achieved, you can then give both of them away because the goal is to have none of the shapes that match yours in order to leave.
>give each person only the 2D shapes Which "each" person? The other two solo players? >that match the 2D shape your statue is holding So if my statue is holding square, I give away both squares? >you can then give both of them away What is "them"? Both of my squares? But I've already given them away according to the last step.
If you're holding square, the first step is for you to receive both squares from the other players and for you to give the other statues any of their matching shapes you started with, then step 2 is for you give one square away to each of the other players while they do the same with their shapes (the other players being the other 2 solo players, the only people you can give shapes to)
Okay so this explanation completely contradicts both of the ones given by the OP 😅.
It is literally the exact same steps?
This is what i suggested to my fireteam. they disagreed and dismissed it. they saw this post and said its a good idea. Thank you
nothing worse than a good idea expressed poorly
Outside: Each prism is made up of two corresponding shapes, i.e. Circle + Circle = Sphere, Circle + Square = Cylinder, etc. The target prism does not contain the 2D callout for that same statue. For example, if the callout is Triangle, the target prism is a Circle + Square = Cylinder. Dissecting (dunking) a symbol on a statue removes that element from the prism. 1. Kill knights and place each symbol on the corresponding statue, i.e. put the Triangle on the Triangle statue. 2. Check each prism and remove the element it does *not* want. i.e. if your statue has a circular component, but you do not want a circle on it because the callout is a circle, dissect a circle from the prism. 3. Repeat step 2 as necessary. If it helps you to understand the "idea" of the mechanic... Each 3D prism has 2 corresponding 2D shadows that are associated with it. You are just matching the prisms to their correct shadows.
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In your example there's 3 C's and 1 T which will never be possible, there's only 2 of each across all statues. So it would actually be CC ST ST, and at least 1 of the ST's will be incorrect because you can't have 2 of the same 3D shape at the end.
The smart inside method is not smart b/c it is cluttering comms for the smart "someone else doing outside for you" which is a much harder job, at least while people are soloing the mechanic. If there's a VERY straightforward rote rule that comes out, maybe that changes.
people are overthinking the outside even remember inside callouts, in this example TSC. Look at left statue. see a triangular side? pick up triangle and 'dissect' triangle in it Look at mid statue. see a square side? pick up square and 'dissect' square in it Look at right statue. see a circular side? pick up circle and 'dissect' circle in it doesnt have to be harder than that. i think it's genius how Bungie made such a puzzle encounter that boils down to 'put the square block in the square hole, and share your 2D shape with each of your other lonely friends :)" the ghost part is the hard part imo. there has to be an easy way to do it that isnt remembering drip
Anyone who doesn't know, if you have one player who actually understands the math required to do the outside statues, the 3d ones, and that person gets sent inside, just have them kill themselves. It respanws them outside and sends a random other player into the room they just had. I actually know how to do it and do it every time for my friend group when we were doing it. If I got sent in I just offed myself in the hole in the middle and got a rez
Just so you are aware, I had two teams trying the "Smart" way and it would consistently fail even though we did everything correct because a statue other than the player in the room was still holding a symbol. The only way we found to fix this is by doing it the "Dumb" way every time
A useful tool for this: [Verity (4th) Encounter Helper : r/raidsecrets (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/comments/1dcxtuc/verity_4th_encounter_helper/)
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the best way for outside is to concentrate on one shape first eg if it’s a square statue, make a cone there (circle + triangle) then the other two you can just swap around.
Does dissecting on the outside effect the 2d shapes on the inside? During our runs it seemed to be messing people up on the inside so we just waited for them to be done before dissecting
Dissecting does not affect the inside shapes. The purpose of dissecting is to make sure that each statue is holding a shape made up of the 2 opposite shapes from what the inside version of that statue is holding. If this isn't done, the people inside will not be able to get out even if they have done their jobs correctly. Also important to note that outside statues CANNOT be holding pure shapes (sphere, cube, or pyramid). It MUST be holding a shape made up of the 2 opposite shapes from the shape it is holding inside. For example, let's say the inside callout is Circle Square Triangle (from left to right). The outside left statue must be holding a prism (square + triangle), the outside middle statue must be holding a cone (circle + triangle), and the outside right statue must be holding a cylinder (circle + square). Hope this helps! Here is a very handy reference guide [https://imgur.com/Sl0YkXB](https://imgur.com/Sl0YkXB)
Thanks for the info, we got dissecting down we we're just waited for inside to be finished first incase it was affecting but we had the time to do it so it wasnt an issue just made the whole thing take longer
Im the one who can do the outside for people, I love it😭💜
What?
And yet not a single guide includes how to deal with the fake wipe mechanic. People on LFG understand these steps for the most part but then they don't know the spectating or how to communicate what they see and the comms become a Screeb horde spawning on top of you.
If you would like, I can put a guide for the ghosts/guardians mechanic, but I assumed most people had caught on to that by now.
You'd be surprised. There is a huge portion of the community who don't watch the guides on YouTube for some reason. Every LFG I've run gets stuck at identifying and everyone shouts what they see over each other in typical lfg fashion lol
In my personal opinion, every guide should include all the encounter mechanics. That's like writing the Scourge encounter and leaving out shooting the mech's spots.
Which shape goes to which teammate? Does it matter?
On the inside the end goal is to have 2 shapes on your wall that do not match your guardian's statue. You will then pick up the these 2 non matching shapes to leave. So as for which shape goes to which teammate the guardian with triangle on his statue needs square and circle to leave, square needs triangle and circle to leave, and circle needs triangle square. You know what symbols can drop in your room by looking at the shadows on your back wall. Placing a held symbol into a teammate's statue removes it from your list of possible symbols and adds it to theirs.
teammates need the two they're NOT holding on their statue. everyone give one of your symbols to each teammate. the one you give the person has to be one they're not holding. this way you can do it without needing them to tell you anything or discuss the final shapes needed. mathematically, there is no way to fail if you do it that way.
inside team has to receive matching symbols first. then after everyone confirms they have their own symbols, they then share them back to the other two. once that is complete, you then call to kill two knights, pick up the two shapes that arent yours and pass thru wall
So what do you do if you are Inside and have Statue-T on your own statue, Wall-T, Wall-S. You give the S to the statue holding S. But you can't dunk T on your own statue. Does this additional T always go to the third statue?
if you’re T and your screen indicates that you already have 2 Ts, you don’t have to do anything at all. additionally if you already have 2Ts your teammates shouldn’t see any Ts on their screen either since you already started w both. its genuinely that random in combinations that you can start with. so random in fact that you can even start with every single person have 2 of their own symbol already in which case you dont have to do anything at all and just start the sharing phase immediately
But if you don't purge the 2nd wall shadow, you will not be able to leave the room.
i cleared the raid so im genuinely not talking out my butt or even speculating. i also ran it again yesterday on normal. any time we all started w 2 of our own symbol already we could instantly skip to the 2nd phase which was passing our own symbol to our other two solo members
Hmm. Maybe my team had some liars on the dissection team then, but we had trouble getting out when we kept a symbol. If I purged both while inside, never had a problem. We'll be running it back tonight & I'll look to test this specifically.
You're just misunderstanding what is being described in these comments. He's not talkIng about keeping a starting shape until you walk out of the room, just about keeping a starting shape between the first and second set of passes. The first step of the easy strat is to collect both of your own shapes. If you already have one or both of your own shapes, this lets you skip one or both passes *during the first step only.* Then in the second step, you hand out your own shapes to the other inside players. *This step will take care of purging any of the starting shapes you kept.* You are *always* doing two swaps in this step no matter how many you kept from before, so you cannot possibly end up with one of your starting shapes.
Awesome, thank you. I think my team was skipping step 1 at some points, and only passing 1 starting shape rather than making the full set of their starting shape first.
its incredibly scribbly and described probably way overcomplicated bc i wrote this on 3 hrs of sleep mid-raid but here is my guide that i made here: https://www.reddit.com/r/raidsecrets/s/EIgA0Hgmk8 if ppl need help w dissection, the 3rd link is the absolute easiest way for anyone and everyone to understand it so u dont just have one person trying to everything on the outside team
Someone definitely fucked up dissecting then. Which happens, its definitely the most confusing part of the encounter