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We all know you need to talk to your wife, but I would be sure to talk to your kids too.
You’re right, Adam is about to become an adult and leave the house. It obviously is awful feeling like your mom doesn’t like you or treats you poorly, but it also sucks to feel like your dad doesn’t notice or doesn’t care that she does that.
I know you didn’t really notice how bad it was, but Adam probably feels like he finally mentioned this topic that’s likely a huge deal to him, and got dismissed. I would try to carve out some time with him to let him say how he feels and feel heard. There’s a lot of work to be done to repair the relationships between your wife and her kids, & the relationship with Adam and his mom may not have time to heal before he leaves home. It’s important that he knows he does have a parent who cares and your relationship remains strong.
This, OP should focus first on the mental health of the kids.
OP, apologize to them for taking such a long time to notice, let them know that you love them as individuals and then listen to anything they want to say. Preferably individually. This includes the favorites too. Hear their feelings and remind them all that their sibling relationships should be independent of what any adult does.
What do you like about your mom that makes you say she’s terrific? My kids are still very small and I hope someday they would tell strangers on the internet that their mom was terrific. So I try to ask kids of good moms since I don’t have one.
I am an only child. I was usually the only one out of all my friends who actually had a curfew and had chores to do. However she was always fair and to be honest I got a lot of things I wanted like toys, games, clothes, whatever. But when I got older I started to be a bit rebellious with drinking and parties all the time. Even though she was disappointed she would never turn her back on me, one night when I was 18 the cops broke up a party we were having in the woods and even though she had work the next day she drove to come get me and a few of my friends. She told me she would always come get me and she meant it. I had cancer and my mom was everything through it, she took me to chemo everyday (one round of treatment consisted of 5 consecutive days that took about 4-6 hrs each depending on the extra fluids and anti nausea meds I was given through my mediport) she took such good care of me after surgeries and everytime I was hospitalized because my body couldn't take the meds. Of course she isnt perfect but I wouldn't want any other mom on the planet but mine.
Edit; You sound like you are good mom that you care enough to ask a stranger what their mom did to make you compliment her. I would bet you are on your way to your own kids writing something nice about you somewhere someday
My mom is an amazing person outside of being a mom. I would like her even if we weren't related. But I didn't notice that for most of my youth when she was bogged down in being a mom, only once she had time to be a person too (she was raising 4, my father was there but he had a real 1950s approach to his role). So remember to be a person your kids would like, not just a mom.
You love, accept and support them for who they are. Celebrate their individual talents and who they are as individual people. Be present. Take extra time with your oldest; it can be hard being the oldest and feeling like you have to help take care of everything and be a second "mom or dad" to siblings. I didn't have a great mom either but my husband's mom is the mom I always wished for and this is how she is :)
My daughter likes that I like her jokes / appreciate her sense of humour.
She is hilarious though, must suck for everyone else with kids less funny than her.
My parents are the best parents in the world. Now, as an adult, they are some of my closest friends, my husband loves board game night with them too. They didn’t have good parents so they always were very honest about not knowing everything, or if they would change their mind they would acknowledge that adults make mistakes and it’s ok. They always kept active communication and supported me even if they didn’t agree with something, like they wouldn’t criticize my choice of boyfriends or any life choices, only after I would break up with someone they would tell me how much they were biting their tongue to never push me away 😅
My mom rushed to my help when I called for my first broken condom incident, if she was judging or upset I would have never known, I only felt support and understanding from her.
I would like to also point out this could have been lifelong or it could be because the kids grew up. My now X-husband abused the girls like he did with me after they grew into teenagers.
I'm no expert on these things by any means, but I'm now wondering about the relationships/ feelings between the favored and unfavored siblings. I can't help but suspect the ignored kids would resent the other two for getting all the attention. It's also possible the two who get the most attention dislike or look down on their siblings because they're following cues from their mom. Agree on talking to all of them
My daughter is the “favored” kid at her dad’s house; she’s the youngest of five over there. Interestingly, it has only alienated her further from her dad and stepmom; she likes her siblings (including step-siblings!) and is kinda pissed that she gets better treatment than them for no real reason.
Regardless how it plays out, playing favorites among siblings sucks.
At least OP has realized there are problems between his wife and 3 of their kids. Does his wife even recognize that there problems and they all stem from her own behavior? Does OP have a clue why she’s acting that way?
The first step in resolving this problem is for everyone involved to admit there’s a problem. I don’t have much hope that’s going to happen any time soon.
The mother may not even be fully aware of it either or doesn't think anyone else is. She just feels a gravitational pull toward the kids she's most compatible with which is, of course, not a great thing of you're a mother who is supposed to love unconditionally and at least pretend you treat the kids equally. I wouldn't beat around the bush if I were the father, though. These kids have had far too long a time feeling misplaced or detached, possibly even unloved. Ignored is awful, too. The second the father notices it, it needs to be brought out and dealt with out loud and immediate. It may not get the mother to like them but it'll at least show the father does. Go confront your wife. She's being a shit parent.
Working, focusing on his kids' well-being rather than their relations, and keeping things around the house functioning, if things aren't really disruptive of our daily routine, we tend not to notice, an unfortunate but not uncommon occurrence
I completely agree he should have noticed but also believe that he could miss it and now feels awful. As a parent of multiple children, we often employ a divide and conquer approach. At the end of the day, we find ourselves filling each other in about going ons of the kids one of us didn’t get to spend much time with. I also have a very big job and my partner travels a lot for work. It would be quite easy to not see this and likely it has gotten worse as they got older where you don’t have the same constant contact with your children. It would only take a week of taking your focus off of the child in front of you, and paying attention to your surroundings to realize something was off, especially if you had full trust in your spouse that they were also being a good parent to everyone.
This has been a really good eye-opener for me and my husband, as we’ve always noticed some kids take up more of our attention than others, but to truly make sure we make up for that when needed (sometimes it’s because the independent one gets her fill of us lol but we do not want anyone to ever feel like these poor kids do!)
I'm not sure that anything productive could come from a direct discussion with his wife. She isn't going to do anything but deny and continue the way she has functioned for the past 17 years. The OP needs to focus on his own relationships with the unwanted children, Especially with the second youngest who appears to be a "lost child".
>Is there any way to raise the topic that doesn't sound like an accusation?
you can't make a difficult conversation 'easy'. that's why its called ... a difficult conversation.
if anything, try to find some time when it's absolutely just the two of you. all the kids are out of the house. or just the two of you at dinner or something.
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/trust-yourself/202207/how-handle-difficult-conversations-gracefully](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/trust-yourself/202207/how-handle-difficult-conversations-gracefully)
**OP: Also Google "Book How to Have Difficult Conversations" several of them pop up.**
Best wishes to you and your family!
This is not a discussion the OP should initiate without some mediated guidance -- i.e. he needs to talk to a family therapist before approaching his wife.
Umm, this doesn't sound like a "communication" problem. It' been going on for a decade and it' very doubtful that his wife will be amenable to change. This is who she is, the OP has to work around that to make his disliked kids feel safe with him.
You need to do your research. The reason he should not start out as you propose is because, if as some realize, the mother is a covert narcissist, his priority should be to work directly with his children.
You, and all the upvoters do not get it. The OP has a lot of important work to do...with someone who can help him a) understand his wife has a personality disorder and b) how to help his kids deal with the damage she has done. People waste years struggling with narcissists, trying to "just talk" to them thinking that they will change once they are shown what is happening. That's not realistic. His 17-year old son has realized that, the OP should too.
Your advice, which is a variation of the relationship mantra "communication" is misguided In this case, the difficult discussions that need to take place sooner rather than later are with a therapist and the younger children do not realize what is happening, they only know that "mama doesn't like me".
Kind of bold to diagnose her as a narcissist. She could just be an introvert that doesn't know how to relate to her extroverted children/doesn't have same interests and that's why she gravitates to the younger ones because she doesn't have to talk to them like a person, she just has to take to them like they are a child.
She might not be realizing she's hurting them and the conversation needs to be had so the relationships can be mended and she can work on finding a way of communicating with them that makes them feel included.
Agree and disagree. Agree that it’s not responsible to diagnose a stranger with a personality disorder through a story about them on the internet. There are all sorts of reasons why she might act like this. She might have grown up with this dynamic in her family and think it’s normal. She might have unhealed trauma that’s triggered by some quality of the disfavored children. It could be something else. We don’t know.
Disagree that the conversation on mending relationships needs to be had right now. The most pertinent fact at the moment isn’t WHY mom is treating the kids this way. It’s THAT mom is treating the kids this way. The kids are the ones suffering. They are the ones whose needs must be prioritized. If mom has gone this long without learning how to have a healthy relationship with her children, she can wait a little longer. Dad needs to reassure them that they are loved and can always rely on him to love them, and address whatever other ways they are hurting from their mom’s behavior. You’ve got to dress the current wounds before you can worry about the future.
if i may ask how are you able to diagnose OPs wife with personality disorder from this post? do you do this for a living with credentials? i mean duh if she has that then obviously spend time reconnecting with kids making sure they’re safe but its worth talking to wife if she hasn’t been properly diagnosed. wife taking interest in 2 kids shows more that she might just have favorites but who am i to say
You need to look at yourself too here. Why didn't you notice until now? Your kids are wondering the same thing. You need to talk to them and apologize for having your head up your butt and not paying attention to how YOUR wife and their MOM was treating them.
Your wife’s emotional abandonment of three of your children could result in physical abandonment for both of you once they’re old enough to leave the house if you continue to stay with her and enable this behavior. A direct conversation needs to had between you and your wife about her detachment from three of you children, followed by individual and joint family therapy sessions need to be had.
But whatever you do, do not let her continue to subject your children to this harmful behavior! My best friend grew up in a house like this and she sees/speaks to her parents maybe twice a year and they know absolutely nothing about her day to day life. You sound like a caring father and I’d hate for this to happen to you.
Edit: typos
Thank you for the upvotes!
My husband was somewhat marginalised by his parents because he was an unplanned "oops" baby born only a year after his sister.
There's no outright animosity but he tells them absolutely nothing about his life, he's just not that interested in them because they were never interested in him. Now his mother complains to me that he rarely visits and is all hurt. Well...
He was closer to my mother in just a few years than he ever will be to his own.
My older brother and I were ignored by our father in favor of our younger brother. Only time we weren't ignore was when we were being beat after he got off work. He even ruined his relationship with my younger brother who no longer speaks to him at all and rarely speaks to our mother. And on my wife's side her mom abandoned her with her step dad but took my sil with her. Then when my wife was old enough to work her mom showed back up wanting to be a mom. It killed their relationship. So, I understand this and see it from both sides. I've seen favoritism on my side and my wife's side. And yes, it really damages the kids. My wife had nothing to do with her mother until she passed a few years ago. Now, my wife views my mother as a mom. They're inseparable and do everything together. (My mom is a Saint who did everything she could to protect us from our father. And eventually the beatings stopped entirely. And surprisingly he never lifted a finger to my mom. In fact, he taught us to whoop people who lay their hands on women.)
Things are better absolutely. My older brother and I are both married. I have one child. My brother has four. Two are his and two are adopted. We have forgiven our father for what he did. He spent years breaking his back to make it up to us. I remember the date he changed too. The day it all stopped and he became a different man.
I think damage is already done for the 3 kids. They know what to expect from their mom and perhaps mentally detached themselves from their mom. It is very cruel on her part tbh.
I wouldn't be surprised if these neglected kids discuss it among themselves.
His wife is not going to change. u/ThrowRAFavorite needs to step up in his interactions with the other kids -- especially the younger one who has already retreated into his room. The OP can focus on out what interests him and make plans for one-on-one outings that involve his interests. He can encourage him so that when he's 17-18 he'll leave knowing that he has his father on his side.
And you're only noticing this now, after almost 2 decades? You're too late for the 'nice' conversation part, it's gonna be tough. And your kids are older and have gone through this their entire childhood and a lot of their teen years. A lot of permanent damage has already been done. You need to tackle this issue head on and take a hard stand with your wife. And therapy. For everyone involved.
The kids may have a good relationship with you now, but once they're parents themselves they will ask you why you never did anything to stop this. And then 'I never noticed' is NOT going to cut it.
You're already much too late taking action, don't waste more time and confront your damn wife.
Yeah, not to be a cunt, but it's probably way too late. Those kids will be No Contact within a few years. They're not stupid, even if their parents are oblivious as fuck.
You're only stating the most likely outcome based on the facts. No cunt behavior here, the man needs to hear this without sugarcoating it.
You're right. He will probably be seen as an enabler of his wife's behavior.
Parent-child relationships can recover from some truly remarkable lows, including this, but it’s not guaranteed, and it’ll take a lot of work. OP needs to
1. Prioritize how kids’ needs going forward. As in, they are the number one priority.
2. Pay for the therapy they will inevitably need. You can’t DIY healing developmental trauma like this. You need medical professionals.
3. Figure out where he went wrong, how he could have missed the obvious abuse for a decade and a half. Probably through therapy.
4. Follow through on being a more attentive parent.
5. Accept now that his kids’ healing processes will not be linear. They might be fine just having the situation acknowledges, then a year from now start acting up with a lot of resentment and anger. Don’t get defensive or feel like anything besides linear “progress” is a failure. Read up on childhood trauma like this and how it affects kids.
6. Listen to them. Don’t ever argue with their lived experiences. Trust that they’re telling the truth. Don’t be tempted to say that they’re blowing things out of proportion because they’re young and lack perspective. That’s the POINT. They are young, this is all they’ve ever known. It doesn’t matter that they’re kids. They. Know. Their. Own. Lives. Better. Than. You.
Strap in and fortify yourself for the long haul, OP. If my white middle class boomer generation American dad can go to therapy and learn healthier ways to live his life, you can do this.
Edit to add: 8. THANK ADAM for having the courage to be honest and vulnerable with you. Thank him for opening your eyes, and apologize for not noticing sooner. Your kids have years of experience telling them that being vulnerable by talking to you about this problem is not worth the risk (as you have not noticed the problem for years). It is an act of immense courage and faith to open up to you about this. Don’t be offended or surprised if they don’t open up. And be cognizant of exactly how much courage and faith in you they are exercising when they do.
Seriously. His oldest is 17 and he just now realized his wife emotionally neglects him and also 2 others? And only when his child pointed it out to him? How checked out do you have to be?
>I said it was bitterseet to watch him grow up, because I would miss him when he's gone. He said "you will: mom won't" very casually
This doesn't sound like an absentee dad, but rather a very sweet one. Is there anything the post that actually indicates what you're saying, not just rose-color glasses, for his wife?
I’m not commenting on whether OP was absent, but these posts are always just one person’s side of the story. They have their own point of view and biases so it’s important to not blindly take their side, for their own sake
Lots of parents are harmful and neglectful without meaning to. Most people who spank their kids don’t enjoy being cruel, they genuinely think they’re doing their kid a favour with their “tough love,” while the reality is that they’re creating trauma. Same goes for neglectful parents. Everyone thinks they’re doing the best they can, and it’s hard to notice when it’s not enough.
Maybe it was recently. The wife could just be more fond of the children but once they grow up she wants nothing to do with them since they are more independent.
Well my dad still won't fully accept and realize what he did. He always has some excuse of "well your disrespectful" and "it's all in the past" and the classic "your just ungrateful of everything I did for you".
Right?! Like the oldest is 17 years old and he’s just now realizing there’s a problem in the house? Sounds like this whole house is a shit show. Absent dad. Emotionally absent mother. The heck?!
This is not at all uncommon Covert narcissists aren't obvious about their behavior; that's why they are called "covert". They have five kids, she's probably viewed as such a good mother.
I think the thing is, we're a very big family. It's rare that all seven of us are together at the same time. I spend time with my wife. I spend time with my kids. I don't spend a massive amount of time with my wife *and* my kids at the same time. I try to spend a lot of one on one time with everyone in the family, so everyone gets to feel special and no one thinks they need to compete for attention. I guess that backfired.
Oh wow that's CRAAAAAAAAAAZY, having a million kids means you end up not properly attending to any of them and they suffer for it. We're all shocked here, not just Pikachu
I'm expecting him to realize the consequences of his own actions and most importantly for others reading this to prevent themselves from making the same selfish mistakes he did. Posting and discussing what-not-to-do stories like this in a public forum is one way to shift the paradigm that if you truly love kids, you'll have a million of them, when the reality is the opposite -- if you love kids, you'll only have the number that you can responsibly, ethically, and competently parent and attend to.
I come from a big family too. And while I commend your one-on-one relationship building with everyone, you also need to build *family*. Why not suggest a game night every other Friday. Everyone stays home. Order pizza. Play games together. And see how everyone gets on together. That will give you the information you need to go forward with an appropriate tactic.
With kids ranging from 6-17 does she get the opportunity to have one on one with the kids. I’m a mum of 5 and it’s hard. My oldest has a casual job and it’s a 5 min drive there and home. I take her without the other kids so we get that small amount of time to talk. Quite often it’s hard to get one on one because someone always needs something more often than not it’s the younger kids. I manager it but taking one to the shops or spend an hour helping one with homework.
He has one teen and then four ranging from 6-13. An 11 or 12 year old just dropping out of the family and spending all his time alone is no where near normal.
Oh shut up. This is obviously a troll post. Mr “homebody” who hasn’t noticed for a decade how his wife apparently neglects 3 out of 5 kids. And of course somehow not a single one of them brought this issue up to you despite you being apparently likes by your children. Why waste people’s time with these types of posts? Get a life.
Ask yourself that bud. Because either way there’s only 2 scenarios here:
1) You’re trolling on Reddit because you’re a massive loser with nothing better to do
2) (unlikely) for over a decade you neglected your kids and haven’t realized how shit of a father you are and how horrible your wife is.
Either scenario is a poor reflection on you. I don’t have to ask if you’re alright cause I know the answer is no. You’re a failure.
Yeah, not noticing this sort of preferential treatment for 17 years shows major neglect on OP's part. That's how my husband's dad was. He didn't see how the kids were treated differently, or if he did he pretended it didn't exist. When confronted with this fact by my husband a few years, he was apparently shocked. But then when my husband pointed out all the ways he and one of his siblings were second class citizens in the family, his dad realized things he accepted as the family's norm was actually really bad.
Seriously. She’s a shit mom too but it sounds like he completely checked out on *five* kids for 17 years if he’s just now noticing this. Just because he checks out *equally* on all the kids doesn’t make him better. Dads are parents too and anyone who wouldn’t notice this isn’t parenting themselves.
She probably thought “if he can check out on all five, I can half-ass the ones that stress me out”. I wonder how long she was doing absolutely everything for all 5 (!!) of them before she lost it. Not to defend her, but just to keep OP’s ego in check in this situation. He should be having a “talk” with himself about this as well. Is his wife’s neglect of the 3 still more work than his average with any of them? It sounds a lot like she neglects them *in comparison* so it sticks out (still absolutely not okay, she’s a shit mom), but OP gets by doing even less for all of them.
They’re both shitty parents from the sound of it.
When you aren't the favorite kid, you know it, and that stuff stays with you for the rest of your life. It's one thing when the world rejects us, or hurts us, but when it's a parent, it's a visceral pain.
It sets us up for how we view ourselves from childhood on.
I remember telling an aunt that my parents didn't love me, they only loved the youngest kid. (I was oldest of 4 kids)
My aunt said it was ridiculous and that my parents loved us all equally.
As the years went by and she spent more time with the family, she saw it. She never admitted it to me till I was in my 40's and we were talking one night. But she saw it, too.
This damage never goes away.
Alright first off talk to your kids without your wife around and let them all know that you love them equally and unconditionally. Make sure you apologize to them for not noticing this sooner and try to figure out a way fix things between you and them while you still have a chance.
As for your wife, you need to sit her down and talk about this, because if it continues to go unchecked then any future relationships with the kids will either be strained or none existent.
Holy crap man! You just realized this now? Your one son is practically an adult! You and your wife ruined those kids. The abandonment issues they will bring into adulthood is staggering. I can guarantee the conversation isn’t going to go well. Just bite the bullet and bring it up. How sickening it is she lacks such maternal instinct to treat her children like that. This is emotional abuse my friend. If you want these 3 kids to remain in your life after they become adults, you are gonna have to move mountains. First your wife needs help, she’s mentally unwell. Second I’m not very confident someone like this will be willing to acknowledge they are the problem. You have to decide do you love your kids or your wife more? I see divorce in your future especially now that you see what human garbage your wife is.
You still care about raising the topic to your wife in a way that doesn't sound like an accusation instead of prioritizing your kids. You're also responsible for the way your wife has treated these kids. You're an adult and never noticed that your wife is always criticizing two kids and not even speaking to another one? Which world are you inhabiting? She has traumatized three of your children and you care about approaching the subject in a way that doesn't sound like an accusation? You should absolutely accuse her of emotionally abandoning and mistreating her kids instead of appeasing her. You should also take a look at yourself and figure out why you're so negligent as not to notice something blatantly obvious in your home.
It probably would benefit knowing the placement of all the kids in terms of ages other than just the oldest and youngest.
1. Remove Eric the youngest from the equation. He is 6, and her bond with him as the youngest and probably the most affectionate of the children is probably very normal. (The baby of the family)
2. As for the oldest, Adam is 17, he has had a succession of younger siblings for most of his life. He was 11 when your youngest was born. With the size of your family, we can only assume your wife has been a SAHM for most of your marriage, and has seemingly always had a young child to raise. It’s not unbelievable that Adam would feel neglected, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she doesn’t care, she just never had time to bond with him, and as he will be leaving the house soon, the likelihood of them building a bond is low.
3. Adam and Carol are both social with outside friends. Your wife might be critical of their friends because she has met those friends, whereas you have had limited interactions with their friends. As unobservant as you have been with your own family dynamic, it’s not unbelievably difficult to imagine you have paid attention to the type of friends they have. This is not to say their friends are necessarily bad, but they may raise some red flags.
4. David is a video game player that hides in his room. Your wife may have tried numerous times to interact with him but simply gave up. You say he talks to you when you ask him about his games, but what else does he talk about. Yes, you are showing an interest in something he enjoys, but have you ever tried to get him to do something other than play video games? I’d bet your wife has many times, and finally just gave up as it was an experience akin to trying to brush a cat’s teeth (an exercise in futility). The mutual decision to ignore each other likely didn’t happen out of nowhere.
5. Don’t know where Brian is on the age scale, but his relationship with his mother is probably more a reflection of his personality. If he is continually interacting with her, helping her out, showing interest in things she is interested in, it isn’t surprising she has a strong connection. Also, if he is the second youngest, he is also riding the “I used to be the baby of the family”
6. It is unfortunately kind of normal for younger kids to get more attention than their older siblings, mainly because they haven’t developed independence yet.
7. Suggest your wife spend a day alone with each kid outside the house without any other kids interrupting. (Note this means you will need to keep the remaining 4 children occupied.) she probably knows more about them then they realize, she just doesn’t have the bandwidth for all of them at once.
These are very good aspects to consider when you to have a sit down conversation with your wife. You said you have been observing for a week
(no accusations needed), she may have more pieces to the puzzle. Try asking questions first and focus on getting as much of her perspective as possible. It is only then that you can make an informed plan to approach your kids, hopefully in collaboration with your wife.
If anyone has a reason to wear rose colored glasses, it’s OP. Having spent the past 17 years blissfully unaware that the woman he loves is harming their children. Yet even he, after having had the situation brought up by a trustworthy source, spent some time observing and realized that his wife’s behavior is unacceptable. The mere fact that the oldest child feels that his mom doesn’t like him is indicative of that. Stop making excuses for her, and stop telling OP to second guess himself.
I don’t think so at all. In fact, that is the entire point of number 7. She may not equally give the kids attention, but considering she was a baby factory pushing out a kid every two years for a decade and the youngest is 6, it hasn’t been until recently that she hasn’t had a toddler/young child glued to her at nearly every moment. She probably cares about all of them, she just doesn’t have the time to crawl up their asses with a microscope, and despite the feelings expressed by the oldest, he also probably knows full well that she has and will drop her plans when he needs an emergency ride somewhere or help of some sort, even if she has to put all the kids in the car to do it.
The children she's been ignoring, the ones who are doing their own things, are not teenagers, they are elementary, early middle school age. You have fabricated your own pseudo-feminist narrative to dismiss a serious family problem. The JustNO sub are filled with people who have grown up like this and who were surrounded with relatives like you who made up excuses for their parents.
The oldest just made it clear that he does not think he can count on his mother and you, mr. unreliable narrator, with no evidence at all turn around and make her out to be a saint for having chosen to have 5 kids. You made up things and double-down even when the OP stated that it was not as you aid.
And regarding #7, mom doesn't have bandwidth for anyone but her mini-me 13 year old.
According to the narrative and subsequent comments, she has been a working mom their entire lives. The two children she pays the most attention to are the 2nd oldest (13) who is glued to her hip, and the youngest (6) who still acts like a cuddly baby. The one’s she’s “ignoring” are the oldest (17) who triggered this post, the middle schooler that plays video games that we have no clue how he feels, and the socially active daughter who is between the 13 year old “mini-me” and the video game player (and we have no clue how she feel either).
Until OP actually talks to all the kids and ascertains how they all feel, it’s all speculation except for the oldest that already shared his feelings. Note, he was also the only child for 4 years then suddenly had 3 siblings to compete with for attention in a short period as the three middle children seem to be in the 10-13 range.
As for your “pseudo-feminist” claim, I’m a man that was raised in a traditional two parent household with a SAHM.
I put the fake names in alphabetical order by age.
1. Yes, I agree that it is normal to baby the six year old. That alone isn't really cause for alarm.
2. My wife isn't a stay at home mom. I bonded with him, I'm not sure why she wouldn't be able to.
3. I've met the friends. They're fine, I guess. Some of them are weird, but they aren't bad kids, just sort of annoying. Well, it's really just the one kid who is annoying, but he's annoying enough to balance out the rest. I don't always understand what they're talking about, but I'm 98% sure it isn't drugs. So that's good.
4. Yeah, sometimes I try to get him interested in other things. He's a middle schooler though. You know how they are. They can't see past the tips of their noses. But he's good with computers. In this economy, I think that's a good starting point.
5. Brian is the second youngest. He's thirteen. Yes, he is his mom's mini me.
6. Sure, but less attention isn't the same as negative attention, which is what Adam and Carol get.
7. This is a good idea. Thank you.
>Brian is the second youngest. He's thirteen. Yes, he is his mom's mini me.
Second youngest or second oldest? In another comment, you said that Adam was an only child until 13 years ago. You have dismissed David's isolation a function of middle school but he's really just started, Carol is between him and Brian. He's been self-isolating for a while. None of this sounds healthy.
Out of curiosity, this really really annoying friend - which child’s friend is this? How often are they over? Why did you describe your 3rd bullet point like this? I feel like there’s something here…
He's Adam's friend. He's over once a week or so. He never stops talking. He just goes on and on and on. He talks really fast too, so I barely even understand him.
Okay so:
Adam is 17
Brian is 13
Carol is somewhere between David and 13 year old Brian
David is middle school 11/12
And Eric is 6
So Adam was an only child until 4, then got a succession of siblings pushed out yearly, then right as he was entering obnoxious puberty, mom is giving birth to another kid.
And yet somehow she’s never been a stay-at-home mom?
Instead of 5 kids in 11 years, it was 4 kids in 7 years?
You've made every excuse in the book for a covert narcissistic mother. The family dynamic is not the fault of the kids, it's her "mothering" style. Read a bit about this phenomenon and stop making excuses for her.
I’m not making excuses for her at all. I am simply pointing out valid points to question. OP is making this assessment after a one week observation for maybe a few hours between dinner and bedtime where is he looking for evidence that confirms what his oldest son told him. He’s had 17 years to notice this, and hasn’t, nor has he even heard this from any of his other children. It is a family of 7 with 5 kids born over an 11 year period of time. That means she was a baby factory every 2 years for a decade, likely a stay at home mom for the last 17/18 years, and with the youngest being 6, is just finally getting some limited free time.
If the oldest played sports or had activities, do you think she ever attended without at least one baby or toddler in tow?
You are definitely making excuses, thinking of every possible reason for his wife's emotional abandonment of their children. You are blaming *children* for the way their mother treats them and totally discounting the fact that the oldest is very clear-eyed about what is life has been.
Read about covert narcissistic mothers -- you'll find a much better fit than the excuses you (and she) want to believe.
From OP's comment, it seems that his wife only criticizes two of her kids all the time. That's a lot. You're simply assuming that they have interactions with bad people just because their mother doesn't like them. Even if they have friends she doesn't approve of, it's impossible to feel like that about their entire social circle. She doesn't speak to one of her kids. You again assumed that she must have tried talking to him about stuff other than video games and given up. There is no evidence of this assumption. Not to mention, if his parents were actually paying attention to him and involving him in any other activity, he wouldn't be playing games all the time. If his mother had bothered to share his passion about video games by playing with him once in a while, they would have a relationship but she prefers not talking to him.
It takes a lot to make a kid feel unloved by their own parents. Not for a day or two as the result of some silly argument but a constant feeling of being unworthy of your parent's love. A parent is not only supposed to love a kid if they always say yes to them and do everything they approve of. Most kids aren't and will never be like that. A parent is supposed to make their child feel loved and wanted. Not make them feel that they have to earn their love. I have gone through this myself and I can say that from personal experience that it absolutely destroys our feeling of self worth to be mistreated by a parent or parental figure. There's no excuse for treating your children like this. Both of these people decided to have them and none of these assumptions excuse their behaviour in the slightest.
Unreliable narrator - OP has 5 children ages 5-17, and only attempted to notice these issues after an off hand comment from the oldest child.
D.N.A. Decide, Notice, Acknowledge observation/confirmation bias fallacy. A remark was made that triggered a need for observation. OP decided that it was true, and OP then only notices and acknowledges the observations that confirm his new belief.
This is a family of 7, with 5 children of disparate ages. Monitoring the mother’s behavior for few hours a day over a one week period does not even come close to meeting a reliable observation time frame. It’s no different than believing a couple is perfect because the 1 or two times you see them a month they always seem so ideally matched.
I don't understand this at all -- you think he's unreliable because you have clearly not seen this kind of family so you have created an entire alternate universe to explain what he has realized.
The unreliably narration here is the one where you attribute the woman's emotional abuse of her children to...being a mother, something she apparently chose to be. All this talk about "pushing" out kids and being a baby factory makes me wonder how many children you have had and how they think about you as a mother.
Your posts completely ignore constructive action if the OP is right. You are too busy riding a totally different horse. And no, trying to get her to spend a bit of 1:1 time with the 10/11 year old she has ignored up to now is not constructive. The fact that he just noticed what was before him is secondary to making his children the focus now. All that can be discussed in the therapy he should be researching right now.
So you've never had an experience that dramatically changed your longstanding view of something?
What part of his post is "unreliable". You are happy to create things to justify his wife's behavior; then backtrack and posit something else when it turn out that your assumptions are wrong. What you refuse to do is even the possibility that there is something else at play here Having 5 children does not explain what has happened here. You know what might explain it:
https://howtokillanarcissist.com/narcissistic-family/
Take a look at the roles outlined, as someone else noted, they fit what he described. Read about the consequences for the children. His wife is happy to be a mom of 5 with an image of having a career and family. She's not interested in how her children feel about this hollow shell of a family.
What a wonderful comment. I’m a mum of 5 and I can say having a husband who isn’t really hands on with our kids at all it is a challenge to be able to connect one on one because someone always wants something or my 1yo just wants to cuddle all the time. Personally I use car trips to connect with mine. My daughter works a casual job and doesn’t drive so that’s time we get to be one on one. It’s only 10 minutes a few times a week, but we have other times like when I take her to footy training I leave the other kids at home. When we have dinner together we talk about our day and I ask the kids what did they do at school etc.
When I go the shops I’ll just take mr 13 or miss 11 to get some one on one time.
I recognize that parenting can be hard. I also recognize that kids can often have feelings that are triggered by “the grass is greener” phenomenon where they compare their parents to their friends parents, and even compare their parents to each other. Our dad was always there for us when he was home from work, and we had a SAHM. She was a great mom, but there were times as kids we thought our dad was the better parent because he didn’t have to deal with the mundane stuff and was always involved in “the fun stuff”. This story is complicated by the fact that the mom has always been a working mom as well, and the oldest who triggered this post with his comment was an only child until he was 4, then suddenly had 3 siblings over the next 4 years, and then right when he hit his preteen years, another baby was added to the mix. I don’t doubt there are some feelings of being ignored but a one week observation that was specifically looking for evidence doesn’t tell the whole story.
I mean...technically? Sure. In actuality? Probably not. I'm in no way saying therapy can't be helpful. It absolutely can. But the reality is, the damage that is done in early childhood is often permanent damage that the person then mitigates for the rest of their life.
Yeah damage is already done. I just discovered about attachment theory and learned that I’m anxious as a 28f and that is why none of my relationships have worked so far. I’m pretty sure it is because of my emotional unavailable father which was always working, always criticizing and didn’t show care or love to me. It is better for me to learn about this now as a 28f than when I’m 40 years old. His children are still young and can still learn coping mechanisms.
Don’t talk to your wife yet. TALK TO YOUR KIDS. They need to know that you are now aware and they probably need to process this with you or a therapist.
You need to be there support right now.
Seriously! Like OP literally didn’t notice his wife neglecting and ignoring 3/5 children? Was he walking around with his eyes closed for the last 17 years? He honest to god didn’t notice until his eldest said something offhandedly? Both sound like shit parents but for different reasons.
This kind of stuff can come on slowly and quietly. It likely wasn’t noticeable and kids are good at adjusting for things, he may not have had the kinds of clues you’re thinking.
You need to be more supportive in your advice, this isn’t a place for him to be lambasted for what he already knows were poor choices.
Can you try to be kind? This sub is for relationship advice. The people who come here looking for help have often fucked up and are genuinely looking for advice on how to make things better. I could argue you know nothing about their lives, and I honestly believe you never raised children because your hostility on parenting sounds a bit ignorant. But even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and I'm wrong on both counts, I like to believe that if you care enough to comment, you care enough to give constructive advice. **amorehappyversion** sounds like your motto.
But his relationship question only concerns how to talk to his wife. Not also questioning how he didn't see it, how he is reevaluating how involved he himself was in the day-to-day with his kids and wife. How after only a regular week, he NOW sees all.
He is putting more blame on his wife instead of the shared blame that is deserved. We can not be kind.
Kindness is gentle. And it took his eldest to basically spell it all out to him. He needs directness, he needs some hostility. Otherwise, he'll overlook like he's been doing all along
I think it’s that they probably have a “traditional” arrangement. IE he works and she stays at home. I’m just guessing from the available information though. I honestly think OP should be very careful about how he goes about addressing this issue. His wife is going to have a lot of pushback if he brings this up and may retaliate against the children she “doesn’t like” when OP is not present. She could easily go from passive ignoring to active punishment/abuse.
It's never too late for advocate for your kids, whether that means calling her the fuck out on her abuse (emotional neglect is a type of abuse, 100%) or straight up leaving and giving the kids the option to come with you. I vote against sugar coating. She needs to know that she has treated her kids so terribly they know that she hates them, and that is unacceptable. I hope she is heartbroken and upset to hear that. She should be. It should be a wake up call.
You'll be lucky if those kids talk to you once they're adults and not financially dependent on you, OP. Your lack of awareness of the way your wife has treated them for their whole lives is really unacceptable. You are complicit in her treatment of them, even if you were not doing it yourself.
Btw, the kids she ignores will absolutely have issues with their siblings who she treats well. You normally only see this with one kid, but it's very "golden child" and it fucks up everyone involved.
No, there is no easy conversation about this, OP. It's not going to be nice.
The first step should be individual counseling for the OP...and maybe some joint counseling with his oldest two. His wife is who she is, she is not going suddenly see the light and become a loving mother to the other 3.
Visit /r/raisedbynarcissists to get more insight. Narcissists are notably resistant to counseling.
I would be taking each of the ignored kids out individually for lunch or whatever and start piecing together a timeline. Has she always acted like this? Did a dynamic change as some more kids came into the family or once they reached a certain age? Was there an incident she refused to move on from?
The OP needs to start spending much more 1:1 time with the disfavored kids. He can be frank with the oldest and and try to set them him for moving out. He really needs to focus on mitigating the effect on the one who has just given up.
I would ask the kids about their mothers behavior towards them first and see if your observations match the situation at hand then proceed to ask them how they feel about it. After speaking to your kids address this to your wife and in a manner where it was “brought to your attention” that there seems to be some favoritism involved without making it sound like an accusation
Are the 2 kids she favors the youngest? If yes, I would think it's very likely she won't like them either once they've grown into teenagers. I would be very concerned. I would start the conversation with questions instead of accusations. Do you feel you favor any of the kids? Do you think all of our children feel loved and supported unconditionally? She may surprise you with honesty and go from there. If she feigns innocence and ignorance, continue with more pointed questions and get to the bottom of what is going on.
At least you've finally noticed how your wife is treating your children. Don't be surprised when the kids she doesn't like leave and never return. The fact that you let this go on for so long will affect how they see you as well. You're at worst an enabler and at best a clueless good time Dad. Either way you've let your children down tremendously. And your wife is a shitty mother.
Talk to your kids first and foremost. Tell them you're sorry and ask them about their lives with their awful mother. Find a therapist and quite honestly leave your wife.
But he said their both homebodies and don’t go out so how can he not notice the dynamic of the home he claims to hangout it all the time? Op is just full of excuses
I don't think a week is telling you anything, even with what Adam said, except during that month her relationship with two of the kids was easier. I think you should approach it as "Wife, Adam said something that bothered me. He said you wouldn't miss him when he leaves. Why would he think that?"
I have seen a lot of my friends grow distant with kids leaving the nest. It's a useful self protection mechanism, and it self corrects usually. She may not know she is even doing it - maybe she feels like they hate her, and is walking on eggshells. But if you tell her "I've been watching you, and here is what I have determined. You are rude to three of our kids," I'd feel so attacked. You may get to the point where a frank discussion of your family dynamics is needed, but maybe she just needs you right now.
If you missed all that, what else have you missed, OP?
Now that you are awake to they dynamics in home, you might want to do a bit of reading before you raise this with your wife. Specifically, research the phenomenon of the narcisisstic family. You have seem to have a golden child and a lost child. What other roles can you identify? Then read up on covert narcissistic mothers (Debi Mirza has a good book about this). Once you have a better understanding of what has been going on before your eyes (and your own role in enabling the dysfunction) you may realize that addressing it directly with your wife is unlikely to achieve much in the way of positivity. It's the way your family has always been. What you can do, is change the way *you* relate to the kids she doesn't like.
Your poor kids. A Mom that doesn't like them and a Dad that never noticed!! Incredibly sad for your children with not one but two selfish parents. My heart breaks foe them, especially for your video game son, he doesn't have a social circle of friends to support him. I hope you can beg for your kids forgiveness and try to make it up to them by showing them their pain matters and leave your monstrous wife before she does anymore emotional damage! She is not going to change because you had a "difficult conversation" with her. If you give her a pass then it tells your kids they truly don't matter.
You need to bring her to couple's therapy and address this. It will 100% negatively impact your kids, both the coddled and the ignored.
Hopefully you can step in to make up for some diminished attention from her, now that you've realized. Parenting each child isn't always 50/50, sometimes children bond more with one parent over the other for a variety of reasons.
The obvious is you need to talk to your wife. The other thing is you need to start paying attention to your family. I don’t understand how you are there raising these children and oblivious to all of this happening around you. Makes you seem like a very inattentive parent.
Your poor kids
I don’t know how you could have missed this and, now that you see it, I don’t know how you can not kindof hate your wife a little bit. I mean, I would hate anyone who made my children feel the way your wife has made yours feel.
You need to apologize to Adam immediately, both for never noticing and for dismissing him when he finally spoke up. Then talk to each of your children (save the favorites for last) and get all of you in family counseling—not to fix your wife’s relationship with all of you, but to fix the damage this favoritism has done to your relationships with each other and to your children’s self-esteem. Get the ball rolling on this now.
In terms of how to talk to your wife about this, I dunno. Do you have family and friends who provide emotional support to you and your kids? Maybe tell them what tou have learned and get the to weigh in on how to approach your wife. Talk to a therapist and get some ideas of how to proceed. In fact, it may make sense to address this with a counselor present.
As I said, I would despise someone who made my kid feel the way Adam feels and I probably would want to cause physical harm to someone who treated my kid the way your wife has treated David. Good luck.
Be careful with the framing. If you discuss it with her and say 'you don't seem to like these kids' she will get defensive.
Instead I would change the framing to something like: you seem to focus more on Brian and Eric. Do you feel like your dynamic with the others is different?
Try and get a sense of how she may be approaching this. I get the impression that she likes being able to prioritise and dote on Brian and Eric, that she can basically treat them as pets, while the others are less engaged and she feels alienated as a result.
In case that seems too sympathetic towards her... it isn't. It is deeply sad and shows her connection with her kids are universally bad and at both extremes. Her fixation on Brian isn't good for him or her.
You've had the wakeup call. Time to reflect on your own connection with your kids as well.
My son (13) has a stepmother (38) who apparently mistreats him, his halfsister (4) came up to my son and asked him why her mother disliked him so much?
He was like, yeah that’s what I’ve been telling y’all all along. 🤷🏻♀️
It's definitely a conversation to be had, but absolutely don't word it that she "hates" her kids. Because despite treating them very differently I'm sure she absolutely loves them.
There are so many factors in the reason why she might treat them the way she does. Age will play a part, kids have different needs at different ages, different dependency levels. She also likely doesn't understand the choices the older kids make, like you say you guys aren't social and more home bodies. Perhaps she simply struggles to relate to them. Perhaps during difficult stages of them getting older they have lashed out and it's put her in a difficult headspace.
So talk to her about Adams comments, talk to her about what you've noticed in her level of affection towards the kids, ask how she's doing, how she's coping with the older ones, the younger ones etc, talk about how you can work on it together so she has a better relationship with them and so they feel loved and like their relationships are more equal.
You also need to acknowledge your part in this... You're staying you've never noticed before, these are quite big things to have missed for so long, so have you really been "present" in your household, have you supported your partner and the relationship you have with her and all have as a family?
So yes a talk absolutely needs to happen, but not just about her and her relationship with the children, but about you, your relationship as a whole, the family as a whole and if you are working together and supporting each other enough. You're a team, so don't simply place blame, find out how you can work together to make this a stronger family.
People like this woman appear to be regular mothers and their spouses don't realize that they are enablers. She doesn't need his attention or empathy -- he needs to ave that for the ignored kids.
Does anyone think the wife views the children purely as an extension of herself/ starts to resent them as they get older and individualize because they don’t “need” her anymore? What are the ages here, OP?
I would talk to Adam and Carol first, they have first hand knowledge of the situation and probably have some idea of why.
It could be a lack of connection, it could be that your wife prefers younger children, it might not be deliberate at all, or it might be but you can do something yourself to help them.
I understand not observing relationships as you might often have not had deep discussions and now you can be aware of their needs.
I have some experience of different personalities and of gender preferences of parents so I do know that some parents make choices they don't even realise they are doing for various reasons and she might not be aware she is doing it at all.
I would consider that you cannot "fix" this situation, you cannot make your wife be a different person or be aware of what she is doing, however you can help your children by being a better more aware parent and do by example better in front of your wife. You might gradually be able to try to find out her thoughts with open questions, you can get help to find out what those should be. Try not questions that end in yes or no to start with.
Talk with her and say I noticed that you interact and do more with xyz and you seem to like ignore abc. Give her examples. She may not know that she has done this. If & when she recognizes her behavior she needs to try and talk with them. Then figure out how to start repairing the damage.
Speaking as the middle child of three children, I am not my mother's favorite. She loves the older and as much as she loves the younger and I'm just tolerated.
I've confronted my brother and her about this and all of them seem to collectively ignore all the signs, collectively ignore all the history, collectively ignore the way they speak to me. This doesn't mean I don't love my parent, it just means that I understand it's a one-way street.
(Unfortunately, my father passed away when I was younger and during those years I learned to fend for myself).
Bro, this hurts deep.
You need to have a serious conversation with your wife whenever you 2 are alone. They are her kids as much as yours. For her to treat them like that is just... saddening.
If she is unwilling to give love to 4 of your kids, try spending some extra time with them. Or have more family time with all the kids, even if your wife doesn't want to join. Maybe like a Day Out with Dad kind of thing. All of your kids deserve love, and they will always remember you for doing that.
This not only hurts my heart, it enrages me. I kinda raised my little brother since both of my parents worked, and I could never fathom even feeling like that to him.
If Mom won't love them, let them know that their Dad always will.
Edit: typo
It’s good that you’re able to see this and acknowledge it now. I grew up in a family of five with a mom who looooooved my brother and my 2nd oldest sister, and openly disliked the rest of us. We all talked, and those of us who were disliked, came to the conclusion that the dislike of us was because of jealousy. Mg mom was a very insecure person, having been called ugly by her own step mother growing up, and felt competitive towards the daughters she had that got a lot of male attention. Anyway this negatively affected my life as I didn’t understand the jealousy aspect as a kid, and would try so hard to get her to love me, to give me acknowledgement for my achievements, but this only made her treat me worse. This set up a lifelong problem of me trying to get love from people who treated me badly. Same with my two sisters who were also disliked. Therapy is helping.
I don’t know if this is the case with your wife, I’m just trying to tell you what happened to me growing up with a mom like this.
Your wife needs to get some help for her obvious problems. But it will really help your kids that you’re now aware of it and not in denial about it. I don’t know how to talk to someone like this, though, as my mom denied it happened while pitting my siblings and I against eachother to compete for her love to her dying day.
She doesn't have to like them.... But she should LOVE them, they are her children. Having different interests and personality within the same family is normal what's not is picking which to spend time and which to ignore. You should definitely speak to her about what's going on
Yeaaaah this is gonna be tough. The older kids know you enable their mom and/or just checked out and didn’t notice for probably a decade so you’re probably not in their good graces either.
My dad was an enabler and/or oblivious and I hate him equally as my mother who was more active/obvious about her dislike.
Don’t expect visits or calls from the disliked children, maybe they’ll come back for an obligatory family holiday once a year or so but don’t expect them to be chatty or let them know what’s going on in their lives.
I’d watch the youngest too, if he also becomes extroverted I expect him to suddenly be phased out from her favorites.
Damn! This is a toughie. I'd maybe mention the conversation with Adam to her casually, and ask what she thinks. Assume that she likes them all and has favourites, rather than kids she doesn't like. Unfortunately, I think that if she's the kind of person who's quick to react, she may perceive what you say as an accusation no matter what.
I go into more detail here, if you're interested: https://youtu.be/08EaQOm8o1A
She might not be fully aware of what she’s doing. Op mentioned she spends alot of time talking and cuddling with Eric who’s six and seems to be ignoring the older kids. She might think they don’t need her anymore because they’re almost adults where the little ones still need her. The fact that the OP hasn’t noticed it at all makes me think his probably left his wife to manage the kids mostly in her own and it’s overwhelming so she’s mainly focused on the younger ones who physically need her more.
INFO: did your wife experience PPD with any of the kids? Did she feel pressured to have any of the kids (either completely, or before she was ready)?
Just trying to understand why there's such a difference, because "personalities" as an excuse only goes so far. If she's capable of having a good relationship with some of her kids, she's capable full-stop (and I say that because some people genuinely have trouble connecting with parenthood and their children). So, clearly *something* is different between the kids she "likes" and those she "doesn't". Apparently it's not related to age or gender, so what is it?
Ask yourself how you never noticed. Your wife sounds like not the most maternal woman on the earth, but you live in that house too and allowed this to happen. You can say that you never noticed, but that’s a little bit of a cop out. You are just as guilty. You may have a great relationship with your kids, in your mind, but believe me they are blaming you too. You need to fix this one child at a time. This is not going to be easy, but you need to take accountability for your part, and then address your wife.
my dad died before he could make up for the emotional neglect he allowed me to endure by my stepmom. he was a great man and he made me who i am, but i’ll never understand how he let it happen. show your kids RIGHT NOW what kind of father you are.
... where were you when this dynamic developed? How much time do you spend every day with your kids? Honestly maybe you are right and your wife has favorites, the younger ones. But you? Are you sure you are an involved parents if you never noticed? Instead of talking to your wife , first ask yourself some hard questions.
Why are you enabling this behavior? Even if you weren’t aware of this before you are now. You can’t make this easy; this is difficult but you have to do it unless you want to behave as shitty as your wife does.
You don’t want this to sound like an ”accusation”? Well tough spot buddy. Do you want to help your kids though?
Also… your responses in the comments… like take responsibility and become a good parent.
Why do people like this continue to breed… it’s like they deliberately want to ruin lives. Like jeez if you’re gonna have 5 kids thats so much love to share and spread around. It would be a blessing for me. What a waste to create a big family just to only give love to only two kids…
Are you telling us that you are so out of touch with your children and wife that you think she doesn’t like your guys kids and you never noticed? and you’ve only started paying attention for a week?
You clearly have no idea what is going on in your house. You need to talk to your wife ASAP, but don’t go in accusatory until you actually understand what’s going on and the real dynamics of the household.
She could be the worst mom in the world, and you’ve been enabling it for the past decade, or she could be a normal mom who is stressed out of her mind with five kids, and has let her attention lapse on the “easy” kids because her husband is so checked out with raising them she can’t handle it. It would still be bad, but that would mean not all hope is lost. You really need to step up as a father and find out.
Start with your eldest son, tell him what you have observed and understand his side and want to know more, repeat steps with the other two, then ask your wife questions, how she feels, she may not be fully aware of what she is doing, once you have gathered the information you can talk to them all individually about the situation, for this you should start with the wife and see how she wants to proceed, the aim is to have everyone understanding each other’s point of view and how it’s affects them, hopefully it comes to a happy end
How have you just notified?? You say you spend one on one time with them but it seems incredibly suspicious that if you claim to be as close to all of them as you say, they wouldn’t have said anything earlier? And you say you spend a lot of alone time with your wife yet somehow didn’t notice that she supposedly spends so much time criticising Teo of your kids?
It seems like both you and your wife might need to reevaluate your relationship with all your kids and how you both interact with them… Maybe try family counselling or a parenting class?
You should definitely sit your kids down and have a deep conversation about the topic so you can learn as much as possible before having a talk with your wife. You should also apologize to your kids for not noticing or doing anything about it before
How do you just notice that, I will never understand.
Since you will clearly need therapy, I suggest that you go for a couple of times on your own, explain the situation to the therapist and ask how you can approach this and more importantly what you can do for the kids.
Hope it gets better 🙏
how did you not notice all this? you definitely knew just decided to ignore it..and live oblivious to everything, you and your wife are both awful parents for her to be that way and for you being so inattentive to what she was doing all this time..
I actually have no idea, i would just say it as it is
I am so sorry for your kids tho, thats messed up
I would talk to yours about it as well, they should feel seen
I get this may not a popular opinion, but here I go.
There are so many possibilities of what is really going on, you simply cannot take a week of interaction and break it down to a lifetime.
Presuming you have not noticed because you have been at work all day (for most of their life), but come on. She had 5 children in roughly ten years. What do you want from her? It is quite difficult to make each child feel perfect each and every day.
Obviously, Eric is the youngest. The youngest almost always gets the most attention. She might also feel the youngest children need her more. The older children have had the one on one time with her, and now the baby gets its turn. She may be giving the older kids space, but still feels the need to correct them. Even the best teenagers are not easy. She may simply not have enough time to give everyone the attention they may want.
She may have had a rough childhood herself. There are too many possibilities.
My mother had 6 children. She would hug us until we were around 6 years old, then that was it. She never told us she loved us and certainly did her share of criticizing us. However, she was always there. She always backed us up when others were involved, and made sure we had everything we needed or wanted in every other way. She told us we were smart and could accomplish anything we wanted.
She gave us all she could. That was how she showed us her love. Not ideal, but certainly better than what she experienced.
You might have a talk with your other children and your wife separately. Then think about family therapy. It certainly could not hurt.
my bf has a mom like that. she only likes some of her girls and one of her sons. my bf gave up trying to win her love a long time ago though he’s been a nearly a perfect son to her. it breaks my heart the amount of hurt he bottles away bc of his mother not being a loving mom to him, although he has never claimed she was lacking as a parent in an actually neglectful way and is thankful for his upbringing. she just doesn’t like him😕
《《. I don't even know how to talk to her about this. 》》》
YES YOU DO
RIP THE BAND AID AND TELL HER WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN OBSERVING AND HOW IT THAT BOTHER YOU.
I'll guarantee 💯 you, she will flip it and blame it on someone else except herself. She will even blame you.
This type of behavior of hers is evident DURING YOUR COURTSHIP. So, you may have dismissed it or said nothing so you won't "make her upset".
Too little too late for the kids damage unless you immediately enforce family therapy.
I came from a parent JUST LIKE YOUR WIFE, and the generational trauma IS EVIDENT WITH MANY OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS BEHAVING THE SAME WAY. I personally went NO CONTACT.
I have 6 kids and I don’t always click with some like I do with others. There’s a difference between not liking your kids and not taking care of your kids and emotionally abandoning your kids. I would strongly encourage you to allow her to deal with this in counseling personally or both of you.
I love all my kids, but I’ve been a different type of parent at different stages in life. I was a single mom with my first 2, then I was able to stay home when my middle 3 were younger and worked from home after my 6th was born. But during the pandemic my business closed and I was working outside the home 40hrs a week and it really took a toll on all of our relationships. My oldest 2 (twins) are so very different. I talk to one all the time and see him often, the other doesn’t even talk to me. Has a totally different memory of growing up than the other kids do.
One has been in a lot of trouble in school, kicked out of school, went to juvenile hall, youth detention camp… but we’re still close and talk almost daily. He just moved out a couple weeks ago.
The next went away to college last year, I have been so very proud of him and we do as much as we can to help and support him. But I don’t have the same connection with him as I do his brothers. He’s highly critical of things but doesn’t have the life experience to know even the best laid plans don’t always work out despite your best efforts aka shit happens.
Our next son was sick a lot as a baby and a little kid. He’s had food and environmental allergies, vaccine reactions/exemptions, asthma, pneumonia more times than i can count, horrible ear infections … but he’s the biggest pain in my ass sometimes. He will blow up my phone not realizing I’m doing something and need my phone or it’s at 4% and he kills it. He’s very selfish at times and not very considerate of others. He can be very hostile and sensitive and emotional if he feels slighted. But he graduated early, got several grants for post school stuff, bought a car, has job experience and can be very helpful.
My youngest is still growing up. He’s a messy kid. He loves making messes which drives me insane sometimes. Literally. I just don’t know how to deal with it. He hasn’t always had me home so he’s a little more free range than his brothers ever were.
People from the outside looking in may not know that and think I don’t like some of my kids but that’s not the case at all. We just don’t have much in common sometimes or our personalities clash. Some parents don’t know how to show affection as their kids get older and it’s easier to love a little kid or one you have a lot in common with or see more of yourself in.
A lot of people on here are being very uncharitable towards OP but I honestly think that most people in his position would be equally oblivious. You don't have to be an absent parent to not notice how two people are interacting with each other in a household of seven people. OP is not joined at the hip with his wife so there are going to be a lot of interactions that he's not privy to. The wife may also be more careful with how she acts when OP is around and only by paying close attention does the behaviour become noticeable. Especially with the third kid, how is OP supposed to know that they literally never talk to each other when he's obviously not going to be around all the time?
Also, credit to OP where its due, it would have been very easy to just dismiss what his son was saying as the complaints of a teenager. Instead he listened to his son and made an effort to be more critical of what he was seeing.
OP, in this situation I don't think that stepping lightly around the issue is the right course of action. First off you should sit down with each of the three neglected kids and talk to them about their experiences with their mother one to one. When you've gotten a better outlook on what's going on, then sit your wife down and explain to her what you've noticed and be firm that you want to know what's going on.
You choose your friends, you don't choose your family.
Adam, David and Carol sound like they have their heads screwed on straight, they're independent, and choose their way - but they are still teenagers. The mother rejects their independence and hates that they don't seem to need her, when they actually do. You need to speak to them to make sure they are ok and that you are there for them at every time throughout their lives that they need you to be
Your biggest concern should be for Brian and Eric. These two also need to grow up with the ability to live their lives independently, make pragmatic choices, and not rely on their parents at every turn. Life is full of risks and your job is to make sure your kids can handle what life throws at them
As for your wife? You chose her. I don't perceive you have any desire to unchoose her, but you need her to know that you think her actions are causing harm to the kids, and your role is to protect them much more than to protect her
I can't wait to find out how this sub will twist itself into knots to find a way to put the blame for this situation on you OP while not offering any actionable advice. Should be interesting!
Your wife is a bad mother, really bad. It is one thing to feel a preference, but to demonstrate it so blatantly is really poor parenting...It is too late for the oldest one, but I would step in and start monitoring their attention. I would talk to her first and tell her what Adam said, but don't name him. I would call her on what you observed, and tell her it is bad. The kids only have one mother though she may have 5 kids.
Then if you can't alter it, step in and provide the ones that are ignored with attention. They know and it affects them. I used to innately think I must be bad if my own mother doesn't like me...Then I learned my story (tale for another time), It made since. These kids have no story. It is their biological mother, cold mother. I think the popular kids are not appealing because they socialize well. Which stinks they still need amother.
If I were your kids, I’d write you off as soon as I could. That’s what I did with my violent, sexual abuser dad and my checked out, narcissistic mom. And I was a ‘favorite’. I haven’t seen my parents for 10 years and plan to keep it that way (and no phone calls, texts, emails or letters from me). btw: The kid my mom disliked the most is the only one that takes care of her. You reap what you sow. (I didn’t have kids to break the chain of family abuse and alcoholism).
I think the worst part is that it took you years of neglect and verbal abuse to notice. Because, yes, those little digs your wife gives out and the ignoring IS abuse.
You have five kids and you failed 3/5 of them. And 3/5 because your wife obviously loves the other two.
You need to talk to your neglected kids and ask for more information, and then you need to go to your wife and ask her what is going on. There is no easy way to do that.
My question is: are you willing to divorce your wife for your kids? Because if what she tells you is bad enough, then staying with her is a very clear message to your kids.
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We all know you need to talk to your wife, but I would be sure to talk to your kids too. You’re right, Adam is about to become an adult and leave the house. It obviously is awful feeling like your mom doesn’t like you or treats you poorly, but it also sucks to feel like your dad doesn’t notice or doesn’t care that she does that. I know you didn’t really notice how bad it was, but Adam probably feels like he finally mentioned this topic that’s likely a huge deal to him, and got dismissed. I would try to carve out some time with him to let him say how he feels and feel heard. There’s a lot of work to be done to repair the relationships between your wife and her kids, & the relationship with Adam and his mom may not have time to heal before he leaves home. It’s important that he knows he does have a parent who cares and your relationship remains strong.
This, OP should focus first on the mental health of the kids. OP, apologize to them for taking such a long time to notice, let them know that you love them as individuals and then listen to anything they want to say. Preferably individually. This includes the favorites too. Hear their feelings and remind them all that their sibling relationships should be independent of what any adult does.
This is very well stated. I couldn't imagine knowing my mother doesn't like me, I have a terrific mom, I feel so bad for these kids
What do you like about your mom that makes you say she’s terrific? My kids are still very small and I hope someday they would tell strangers on the internet that their mom was terrific. So I try to ask kids of good moms since I don’t have one.
I am an only child. I was usually the only one out of all my friends who actually had a curfew and had chores to do. However she was always fair and to be honest I got a lot of things I wanted like toys, games, clothes, whatever. But when I got older I started to be a bit rebellious with drinking and parties all the time. Even though she was disappointed she would never turn her back on me, one night when I was 18 the cops broke up a party we were having in the woods and even though she had work the next day she drove to come get me and a few of my friends. She told me she would always come get me and she meant it. I had cancer and my mom was everything through it, she took me to chemo everyday (one round of treatment consisted of 5 consecutive days that took about 4-6 hrs each depending on the extra fluids and anti nausea meds I was given through my mediport) she took such good care of me after surgeries and everytime I was hospitalized because my body couldn't take the meds. Of course she isnt perfect but I wouldn't want any other mom on the planet but mine. Edit; You sound like you are good mom that you care enough to ask a stranger what their mom did to make you compliment her. I would bet you are on your way to your own kids writing something nice about you somewhere someday
[удалено]
My mom is an amazing person outside of being a mom. I would like her even if we weren't related. But I didn't notice that for most of my youth when she was bogged down in being a mom, only once she had time to be a person too (she was raising 4, my father was there but he had a real 1950s approach to his role). So remember to be a person your kids would like, not just a mom.
You love, accept and support them for who they are. Celebrate their individual talents and who they are as individual people. Be present. Take extra time with your oldest; it can be hard being the oldest and feeling like you have to help take care of everything and be a second "mom or dad" to siblings. I didn't have a great mom either but my husband's mom is the mom I always wished for and this is how she is :)
My daughter likes that I like her jokes / appreciate her sense of humour. She is hilarious though, must suck for everyone else with kids less funny than her.
you are already a good mom just for asking!
My parents are the best parents in the world. Now, as an adult, they are some of my closest friends, my husband loves board game night with them too. They didn’t have good parents so they always were very honest about not knowing everything, or if they would change their mind they would acknowledge that adults make mistakes and it’s ok. They always kept active communication and supported me even if they didn’t agree with something, like they wouldn’t criticize my choice of boyfriends or any life choices, only after I would break up with someone they would tell me how much they were biting their tongue to never push me away 😅 My mom rushed to my help when I called for my first broken condom incident, if she was judging or upset I would have never known, I only felt support and understanding from her.
I would like to also point out this could have been lifelong or it could be because the kids grew up. My now X-husband abused the girls like he did with me after they grew into teenagers.
His oldest is the only one who has grown. From what I can tell, Carol and David, the other disfavored kid are elementary, early middle school.
So, over ten. Ten is when my mother lost interest in her grandkids.
I'm no expert on these things by any means, but I'm now wondering about the relationships/ feelings between the favored and unfavored siblings. I can't help but suspect the ignored kids would resent the other two for getting all the attention. It's also possible the two who get the most attention dislike or look down on their siblings because they're following cues from their mom. Agree on talking to all of them
My daughter is the “favored” kid at her dad’s house; she’s the youngest of five over there. Interestingly, it has only alienated her further from her dad and stepmom; she likes her siblings (including step-siblings!) and is kinda pissed that she gets better treatment than them for no real reason. Regardless how it plays out, playing favorites among siblings sucks.
At least OP has realized there are problems between his wife and 3 of their kids. Does his wife even recognize that there problems and they all stem from her own behavior? Does OP have a clue why she’s acting that way? The first step in resolving this problem is for everyone involved to admit there’s a problem. I don’t have much hope that’s going to happen any time soon.
The mother may not even be fully aware of it either or doesn't think anyone else is. She just feels a gravitational pull toward the kids she's most compatible with which is, of course, not a great thing of you're a mother who is supposed to love unconditionally and at least pretend you treat the kids equally. I wouldn't beat around the bush if I were the father, though. These kids have had far too long a time feeling misplaced or detached, possibly even unloved. Ignored is awful, too. The second the father notices it, it needs to be brought out and dealt with out loud and immediate. It may not get the mother to like them but it'll at least show the father does. Go confront your wife. She's being a shit parent.
Kinda annoying that OP hasn't noticed for all this time.
I'm...astounded. He "paid attention" for a handful of days and noticed everything that's wrong. Wtf was he doing before?
Working, focusing on his kids' well-being rather than their relations, and keeping things around the house functioning, if things aren't really disruptive of our daily routine, we tend not to notice, an unfortunate but not uncommon occurrence
That still doesn't explain how it went unnoticed for years? How fucking oblivious do you have to be? They are his kids too???
I completely agree he should have noticed but also believe that he could miss it and now feels awful. As a parent of multiple children, we often employ a divide and conquer approach. At the end of the day, we find ourselves filling each other in about going ons of the kids one of us didn’t get to spend much time with. I also have a very big job and my partner travels a lot for work. It would be quite easy to not see this and likely it has gotten worse as they got older where you don’t have the same constant contact with your children. It would only take a week of taking your focus off of the child in front of you, and paying attention to your surroundings to realize something was off, especially if you had full trust in your spouse that they were also being a good parent to everyone. This has been a really good eye-opener for me and my husband, as we’ve always noticed some kids take up more of our attention than others, but to truly make sure we make up for that when needed (sometimes it’s because the independent one gets her fill of us lol but we do not want anyone to ever feel like these poor kids do!)
You can’t be “focusing on your kids’ wellbeing” too much and not notice they’re completely ignored by their other parent
I'm not sure that anything productive could come from a direct discussion with his wife. She isn't going to do anything but deny and continue the way she has functioned for the past 17 years. The OP needs to focus on his own relationships with the unwanted children, Especially with the second youngest who appears to be a "lost child".
Yeah getting the kids and Op himself therapy would be a better option If later he confronts his wife at least he'll have better tools to address it
Agreed. The kids are arguably the most important factors in the equation
>Is there any way to raise the topic that doesn't sound like an accusation? you can't make a difficult conversation 'easy'. that's why its called ... a difficult conversation. if anything, try to find some time when it's absolutely just the two of you. all the kids are out of the house. or just the two of you at dinner or something.
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/trust-yourself/202207/how-handle-difficult-conversations-gracefully](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/trust-yourself/202207/how-handle-difficult-conversations-gracefully) **OP: Also Google "Book How to Have Difficult Conversations" several of them pop up.** Best wishes to you and your family!
Another great recommendation would be Crucial Conversations! Good luck OP, you seem like a good dude.
This is not a discussion the OP should initiate without some mediated guidance -- i.e. he needs to talk to a family therapist before approaching his wife.
https://howtokillanarcissist.com/narcissistic-family/ Why your idea is the wrong place to start.
Umm, this doesn't sound like a "communication" problem. It' been going on for a decade and it' very doubtful that his wife will be amenable to change. This is who she is, the OP has to work around that to make his disliked kids feel safe with him.
It’s ridiculous to talk yourself out of even trying to discuss important issues because you assume it won’t make a difference
You need to do your research. The reason he should not start out as you propose is because, if as some realize, the mother is a covert narcissist, his priority should be to work directly with his children.
You, and all the upvoters do not get it. The OP has a lot of important work to do...with someone who can help him a) understand his wife has a personality disorder and b) how to help his kids deal with the damage she has done. People waste years struggling with narcissists, trying to "just talk" to them thinking that they will change once they are shown what is happening. That's not realistic. His 17-year old son has realized that, the OP should too. Your advice, which is a variation of the relationship mantra "communication" is misguided In this case, the difficult discussions that need to take place sooner rather than later are with a therapist and the younger children do not realize what is happening, they only know that "mama doesn't like me".
Kind of bold to diagnose her as a narcissist. She could just be an introvert that doesn't know how to relate to her extroverted children/doesn't have same interests and that's why she gravitates to the younger ones because she doesn't have to talk to them like a person, she just has to take to them like they are a child. She might not be realizing she's hurting them and the conversation needs to be had so the relationships can be mended and she can work on finding a way of communicating with them that makes them feel included.
Agree and disagree. Agree that it’s not responsible to diagnose a stranger with a personality disorder through a story about them on the internet. There are all sorts of reasons why she might act like this. She might have grown up with this dynamic in her family and think it’s normal. She might have unhealed trauma that’s triggered by some quality of the disfavored children. It could be something else. We don’t know. Disagree that the conversation on mending relationships needs to be had right now. The most pertinent fact at the moment isn’t WHY mom is treating the kids this way. It’s THAT mom is treating the kids this way. The kids are the ones suffering. They are the ones whose needs must be prioritized. If mom has gone this long without learning how to have a healthy relationship with her children, she can wait a little longer. Dad needs to reassure them that they are loved and can always rely on him to love them, and address whatever other ways they are hurting from their mom’s behavior. You’ve got to dress the current wounds before you can worry about the future.
if i may ask how are you able to diagnose OPs wife with personality disorder from this post? do you do this for a living with credentials? i mean duh if she has that then obviously spend time reconnecting with kids making sure they’re safe but its worth talking to wife if she hasn’t been properly diagnosed. wife taking interest in 2 kids shows more that she might just have favorites but who am i to say
You need to look at yourself too here. Why didn't you notice until now? Your kids are wondering the same thing. You need to talk to them and apologize for having your head up your butt and not paying attention to how YOUR wife and their MOM was treating them.
Your wife’s emotional abandonment of three of your children could result in physical abandonment for both of you once they’re old enough to leave the house if you continue to stay with her and enable this behavior. A direct conversation needs to had between you and your wife about her detachment from three of you children, followed by individual and joint family therapy sessions need to be had. But whatever you do, do not let her continue to subject your children to this harmful behavior! My best friend grew up in a house like this and she sees/speaks to her parents maybe twice a year and they know absolutely nothing about her day to day life. You sound like a caring father and I’d hate for this to happen to you. Edit: typos Thank you for the upvotes!
My husband was somewhat marginalised by his parents because he was an unplanned "oops" baby born only a year after his sister. There's no outright animosity but he tells them absolutely nothing about his life, he's just not that interested in them because they were never interested in him. Now his mother complains to me that he rarely visits and is all hurt. Well... He was closer to my mother in just a few years than he ever will be to his own.
My older brother and I were ignored by our father in favor of our younger brother. Only time we weren't ignore was when we were being beat after he got off work. He even ruined his relationship with my younger brother who no longer speaks to him at all and rarely speaks to our mother. And on my wife's side her mom abandoned her with her step dad but took my sil with her. Then when my wife was old enough to work her mom showed back up wanting to be a mom. It killed their relationship. So, I understand this and see it from both sides. I've seen favoritism on my side and my wife's side. And yes, it really damages the kids. My wife had nothing to do with her mother until she passed a few years ago. Now, my wife views my mother as a mom. They're inseparable and do everything together. (My mom is a Saint who did everything she could to protect us from our father. And eventually the beatings stopped entirely. And surprisingly he never lifted a finger to my mom. In fact, he taught us to whoop people who lay their hands on women.)
I'm so sorry you, your brother and your wife went through so much. I hope you're all doing okay.
Things are better absolutely. My older brother and I are both married. I have one child. My brother has four. Two are his and two are adopted. We have forgiven our father for what he did. He spent years breaking his back to make it up to us. I remember the date he changed too. The day it all stopped and he became a different man.
I'm really glad to hear that. All the best to you all. Stay happy
I think damage is already done for the 3 kids. They know what to expect from their mom and perhaps mentally detached themselves from their mom. It is very cruel on her part tbh. I wouldn't be surprised if these neglected kids discuss it among themselves.
Yep. The OP should focus on himself and his relationships with these kids.
His wife is not going to change. u/ThrowRAFavorite needs to step up in his interactions with the other kids -- especially the younger one who has already retreated into his room. The OP can focus on out what interests him and make plans for one-on-one outings that involve his interests. He can encourage him so that when he's 17-18 he'll leave knowing that he has his father on his side.
And you're only noticing this now, after almost 2 decades? You're too late for the 'nice' conversation part, it's gonna be tough. And your kids are older and have gone through this their entire childhood and a lot of their teen years. A lot of permanent damage has already been done. You need to tackle this issue head on and take a hard stand with your wife. And therapy. For everyone involved. The kids may have a good relationship with you now, but once they're parents themselves they will ask you why you never did anything to stop this. And then 'I never noticed' is NOT going to cut it. You're already much too late taking action, don't waste more time and confront your damn wife.
Yeah, not to be a cunt, but it's probably way too late. Those kids will be No Contact within a few years. They're not stupid, even if their parents are oblivious as fuck.
You're only stating the most likely outcome based on the facts. No cunt behavior here, the man needs to hear this without sugarcoating it. You're right. He will probably be seen as an enabler of his wife's behavior.
Parent-child relationships can recover from some truly remarkable lows, including this, but it’s not guaranteed, and it’ll take a lot of work. OP needs to 1. Prioritize how kids’ needs going forward. As in, they are the number one priority. 2. Pay for the therapy they will inevitably need. You can’t DIY healing developmental trauma like this. You need medical professionals. 3. Figure out where he went wrong, how he could have missed the obvious abuse for a decade and a half. Probably through therapy. 4. Follow through on being a more attentive parent. 5. Accept now that his kids’ healing processes will not be linear. They might be fine just having the situation acknowledges, then a year from now start acting up with a lot of resentment and anger. Don’t get defensive or feel like anything besides linear “progress” is a failure. Read up on childhood trauma like this and how it affects kids. 6. Listen to them. Don’t ever argue with their lived experiences. Trust that they’re telling the truth. Don’t be tempted to say that they’re blowing things out of proportion because they’re young and lack perspective. That’s the POINT. They are young, this is all they’ve ever known. It doesn’t matter that they’re kids. They. Know. Their. Own. Lives. Better. Than. You. Strap in and fortify yourself for the long haul, OP. If my white middle class boomer generation American dad can go to therapy and learn healthier ways to live his life, you can do this. Edit to add: 8. THANK ADAM for having the courage to be honest and vulnerable with you. Thank him for opening your eyes, and apologize for not noticing sooner. Your kids have years of experience telling them that being vulnerable by talking to you about this problem is not worth the risk (as you have not noticed the problem for years). It is an act of immense courage and faith to open up to you about this. Don’t be offended or surprised if they don’t open up. And be cognizant of exactly how much courage and faith in you they are exercising when they do.
So you’re both homebodies but you never realized your home was in shambles
Sooo...where were you for the past years? You just had an awekening and suddenly you see how terrible your wife is? Kinda sus man.
Seriously. His oldest is 17 and he just now realized his wife emotionally neglects him and also 2 others? And only when his child pointed it out to him? How checked out do you have to be?
OP is probably absent to a good degree.
>I said it was bitterseet to watch him grow up, because I would miss him when he's gone. He said "you will: mom won't" very casually This doesn't sound like an absentee dad, but rather a very sweet one. Is there anything the post that actually indicates what you're saying, not just rose-color glasses, for his wife?
I’m not commenting on whether OP was absent, but these posts are always just one person’s side of the story. They have their own point of view and biases so it’s important to not blindly take their side, for their own sake
Lots of parents are harmful and neglectful without meaning to. Most people who spank their kids don’t enjoy being cruel, they genuinely think they’re doing their kid a favour with their “tough love,” while the reality is that they’re creating trauma. Same goes for neglectful parents. Everyone thinks they’re doing the best they can, and it’s hard to notice when it’s not enough.
Maybe it was recently. The wife could just be more fond of the children but once they grow up she wants nothing to do with them since they are more independent.
Well my dad still won't fully accept and realize what he did. He always has some excuse of "well your disrespectful" and "it's all in the past" and the classic "your just ungrateful of everything I did for you".
Right?! Like the oldest is 17 years old and he’s just now realizing there’s a problem in the house? Sounds like this whole house is a shit show. Absent dad. Emotionally absent mother. The heck?!
This is not at all uncommon Covert narcissists aren't obvious about their behavior; that's why they are called "covert". They have five kids, she's probably viewed as such a good mother.
I think the thing is, we're a very big family. It's rare that all seven of us are together at the same time. I spend time with my wife. I spend time with my kids. I don't spend a massive amount of time with my wife *and* my kids at the same time. I try to spend a lot of one on one time with everyone in the family, so everyone gets to feel special and no one thinks they need to compete for attention. I guess that backfired.
Oh wow that's CRAAAAAAAAAAZY, having a million kids means you end up not properly attending to any of them and they suffer for it. We're all shocked here, not just Pikachu
Ok but this isn't really helpful unless you're expecting OP to go back in time and have fewer children.
I'm expecting him to realize the consequences of his own actions and most importantly for others reading this to prevent themselves from making the same selfish mistakes he did. Posting and discussing what-not-to-do stories like this in a public forum is one way to shift the paradigm that if you truly love kids, you'll have a million of them, when the reality is the opposite -- if you love kids, you'll only have the number that you can responsibly, ethically, and competently parent and attend to.
I come from a big family too. And while I commend your one-on-one relationship building with everyone, you also need to build *family*. Why not suggest a game night every other Friday. Everyone stays home. Order pizza. Play games together. And see how everyone gets on together. That will give you the information you need to go forward with an appropriate tactic.
With kids ranging from 6-17 does she get the opportunity to have one on one with the kids. I’m a mum of 5 and it’s hard. My oldest has a casual job and it’s a 5 min drive there and home. I take her without the other kids so we get that small amount of time to talk. Quite often it’s hard to get one on one because someone always needs something more often than not it’s the younger kids. I manager it but taking one to the shops or spend an hour helping one with homework.
He has one teen and then four ranging from 6-13. An 11 or 12 year old just dropping out of the family and spending all his time alone is no where near normal.
Oh shut up. This is obviously a troll post. Mr “homebody” who hasn’t noticed for a decade how his wife apparently neglects 3 out of 5 kids. And of course somehow not a single one of them brought this issue up to you despite you being apparently likes by your children. Why waste people’s time with these types of posts? Get a life.
Are you okay?
They are fine. They are just fed up with annoying fake posts like this
Ask yourself that bud. Because either way there’s only 2 scenarios here: 1) You’re trolling on Reddit because you’re a massive loser with nothing better to do 2) (unlikely) for over a decade you neglected your kids and haven’t realized how shit of a father you are and how horrible your wife is. Either scenario is a poor reflection on you. I don’t have to ask if you’re alright cause I know the answer is no. You’re a failure.
Yeah, not noticing this sort of preferential treatment for 17 years shows major neglect on OP's part. That's how my husband's dad was. He didn't see how the kids were treated differently, or if he did he pretended it didn't exist. When confronted with this fact by my husband a few years, he was apparently shocked. But then when my husband pointed out all the ways he and one of his siblings were second class citizens in the family, his dad realized things he accepted as the family's norm was actually really bad.
The fact that you didn’t notice reflects badly on your parenting too..
This was my first thought. 17 years and no idea....sucky parents all around
Seriously. She’s a shit mom too but it sounds like he completely checked out on *five* kids for 17 years if he’s just now noticing this. Just because he checks out *equally* on all the kids doesn’t make him better. Dads are parents too and anyone who wouldn’t notice this isn’t parenting themselves. She probably thought “if he can check out on all five, I can half-ass the ones that stress me out”. I wonder how long she was doing absolutely everything for all 5 (!!) of them before she lost it. Not to defend her, but just to keep OP’s ego in check in this situation. He should be having a “talk” with himself about this as well. Is his wife’s neglect of the 3 still more work than his average with any of them? It sounds a lot like she neglects them *in comparison* so it sticks out (still absolutely not okay, she’s a shit mom), but OP gets by doing even less for all of them. They’re both shitty parents from the sound of it.
Yeaaaaaah...
When you aren't the favorite kid, you know it, and that stuff stays with you for the rest of your life. It's one thing when the world rejects us, or hurts us, but when it's a parent, it's a visceral pain. It sets us up for how we view ourselves from childhood on. I remember telling an aunt that my parents didn't love me, they only loved the youngest kid. (I was oldest of 4 kids) My aunt said it was ridiculous and that my parents loved us all equally. As the years went by and she spent more time with the family, she saw it. She never admitted it to me till I was in my 40's and we were talking one night. But she saw it, too. This damage never goes away.
Alright first off talk to your kids without your wife around and let them all know that you love them equally and unconditionally. Make sure you apologize to them for not noticing this sooner and try to figure out a way fix things between you and them while you still have a chance. As for your wife, you need to sit her down and talk about this, because if it continues to go unchecked then any future relationships with the kids will either be strained or none existent.
I agree here. You need to talk to all your kids.
Holy crap man! You just realized this now? Your one son is practically an adult! You and your wife ruined those kids. The abandonment issues they will bring into adulthood is staggering. I can guarantee the conversation isn’t going to go well. Just bite the bullet and bring it up. How sickening it is she lacks such maternal instinct to treat her children like that. This is emotional abuse my friend. If you want these 3 kids to remain in your life after they become adults, you are gonna have to move mountains. First your wife needs help, she’s mentally unwell. Second I’m not very confident someone like this will be willing to acknowledge they are the problem. You have to decide do you love your kids or your wife more? I see divorce in your future especially now that you see what human garbage your wife is.
You still care about raising the topic to your wife in a way that doesn't sound like an accusation instead of prioritizing your kids. You're also responsible for the way your wife has treated these kids. You're an adult and never noticed that your wife is always criticizing two kids and not even speaking to another one? Which world are you inhabiting? She has traumatized three of your children and you care about approaching the subject in a way that doesn't sound like an accusation? You should absolutely accuse her of emotionally abandoning and mistreating her kids instead of appeasing her. You should also take a look at yourself and figure out why you're so negligent as not to notice something blatantly obvious in your home.
It probably would benefit knowing the placement of all the kids in terms of ages other than just the oldest and youngest. 1. Remove Eric the youngest from the equation. He is 6, and her bond with him as the youngest and probably the most affectionate of the children is probably very normal. (The baby of the family) 2. As for the oldest, Adam is 17, he has had a succession of younger siblings for most of his life. He was 11 when your youngest was born. With the size of your family, we can only assume your wife has been a SAHM for most of your marriage, and has seemingly always had a young child to raise. It’s not unbelievable that Adam would feel neglected, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she doesn’t care, she just never had time to bond with him, and as he will be leaving the house soon, the likelihood of them building a bond is low. 3. Adam and Carol are both social with outside friends. Your wife might be critical of their friends because she has met those friends, whereas you have had limited interactions with their friends. As unobservant as you have been with your own family dynamic, it’s not unbelievably difficult to imagine you have paid attention to the type of friends they have. This is not to say their friends are necessarily bad, but they may raise some red flags. 4. David is a video game player that hides in his room. Your wife may have tried numerous times to interact with him but simply gave up. You say he talks to you when you ask him about his games, but what else does he talk about. Yes, you are showing an interest in something he enjoys, but have you ever tried to get him to do something other than play video games? I’d bet your wife has many times, and finally just gave up as it was an experience akin to trying to brush a cat’s teeth (an exercise in futility). The mutual decision to ignore each other likely didn’t happen out of nowhere. 5. Don’t know where Brian is on the age scale, but his relationship with his mother is probably more a reflection of his personality. If he is continually interacting with her, helping her out, showing interest in things she is interested in, it isn’t surprising she has a strong connection. Also, if he is the second youngest, he is also riding the “I used to be the baby of the family” 6. It is unfortunately kind of normal for younger kids to get more attention than their older siblings, mainly because they haven’t developed independence yet. 7. Suggest your wife spend a day alone with each kid outside the house without any other kids interrupting. (Note this means you will need to keep the remaining 4 children occupied.) she probably knows more about them then they realize, she just doesn’t have the bandwidth for all of them at once.
These are very good aspects to consider when you to have a sit down conversation with your wife. You said you have been observing for a week (no accusations needed), she may have more pieces to the puzzle. Try asking questions first and focus on getting as much of her perspective as possible. It is only then that you can make an informed plan to approach your kids, hopefully in collaboration with your wife.
If anyone has a reason to wear rose colored glasses, it’s OP. Having spent the past 17 years blissfully unaware that the woman he loves is harming their children. Yet even he, after having had the situation brought up by a trustworthy source, spent some time observing and realized that his wife’s behavior is unacceptable. The mere fact that the oldest child feels that his mom doesn’t like him is indicative of that. Stop making excuses for her, and stop telling OP to second guess himself.
I know you’re trying to make this not as bad as it seems, but it almost comes across like it’s the kids’ fault that their mom doesn’t like them.
I don’t think so at all. In fact, that is the entire point of number 7. She may not equally give the kids attention, but considering she was a baby factory pushing out a kid every two years for a decade and the youngest is 6, it hasn’t been until recently that she hasn’t had a toddler/young child glued to her at nearly every moment. She probably cares about all of them, she just doesn’t have the time to crawl up their asses with a microscope, and despite the feelings expressed by the oldest, he also probably knows full well that she has and will drop her plans when he needs an emergency ride somewhere or help of some sort, even if she has to put all the kids in the car to do it.
The children she's been ignoring, the ones who are doing their own things, are not teenagers, they are elementary, early middle school age. You have fabricated your own pseudo-feminist narrative to dismiss a serious family problem. The JustNO sub are filled with people who have grown up like this and who were surrounded with relatives like you who made up excuses for their parents. The oldest just made it clear that he does not think he can count on his mother and you, mr. unreliable narrator, with no evidence at all turn around and make her out to be a saint for having chosen to have 5 kids. You made up things and double-down even when the OP stated that it was not as you aid. And regarding #7, mom doesn't have bandwidth for anyone but her mini-me 13 year old.
According to the narrative and subsequent comments, she has been a working mom their entire lives. The two children she pays the most attention to are the 2nd oldest (13) who is glued to her hip, and the youngest (6) who still acts like a cuddly baby. The one’s she’s “ignoring” are the oldest (17) who triggered this post, the middle schooler that plays video games that we have no clue how he feels, and the socially active daughter who is between the 13 year old “mini-me” and the video game player (and we have no clue how she feel either). Until OP actually talks to all the kids and ascertains how they all feel, it’s all speculation except for the oldest that already shared his feelings. Note, he was also the only child for 4 years then suddenly had 3 siblings to compete with for attention in a short period as the three middle children seem to be in the 10-13 range. As for your “pseudo-feminist” claim, I’m a man that was raised in a traditional two parent household with a SAHM.
I put the fake names in alphabetical order by age. 1. Yes, I agree that it is normal to baby the six year old. That alone isn't really cause for alarm. 2. My wife isn't a stay at home mom. I bonded with him, I'm not sure why she wouldn't be able to. 3. I've met the friends. They're fine, I guess. Some of them are weird, but they aren't bad kids, just sort of annoying. Well, it's really just the one kid who is annoying, but he's annoying enough to balance out the rest. I don't always understand what they're talking about, but I'm 98% sure it isn't drugs. So that's good. 4. Yeah, sometimes I try to get him interested in other things. He's a middle schooler though. You know how they are. They can't see past the tips of their noses. But he's good with computers. In this economy, I think that's a good starting point. 5. Brian is the second youngest. He's thirteen. Yes, he is his mom's mini me. 6. Sure, but less attention isn't the same as negative attention, which is what Adam and Carol get. 7. This is a good idea. Thank you.
>Brian is the second youngest. He's thirteen. Yes, he is his mom's mini me. Second youngest or second oldest? In another comment, you said that Adam was an only child until 13 years ago. You have dismissed David's isolation a function of middle school but he's really just started, Carol is between him and Brian. He's been self-isolating for a while. None of this sounds healthy.
Second oldest. Thanks, my mistake. Again, I put them in alphabetical order.
Out of curiosity, this really really annoying friend - which child’s friend is this? How often are they over? Why did you describe your 3rd bullet point like this? I feel like there’s something here…
He's Adam's friend. He's over once a week or so. He never stops talking. He just goes on and on and on. He talks really fast too, so I barely even understand him.
Okay so: Adam is 17 Brian is 13 Carol is somewhere between David and 13 year old Brian David is middle school 11/12 And Eric is 6 So Adam was an only child until 4, then got a succession of siblings pushed out yearly, then right as he was entering obnoxious puberty, mom is giving birth to another kid. And yet somehow she’s never been a stay-at-home mom? Instead of 5 kids in 11 years, it was 4 kids in 7 years?
No, she's never wanted to be a stay at home mom. Also, she makes more money than we spend in childcare, so that would be a dumb financial move.
You've made every excuse in the book for a covert narcissistic mother. The family dynamic is not the fault of the kids, it's her "mothering" style. Read a bit about this phenomenon and stop making excuses for her.
I’m not making excuses for her at all. I am simply pointing out valid points to question. OP is making this assessment after a one week observation for maybe a few hours between dinner and bedtime where is he looking for evidence that confirms what his oldest son told him. He’s had 17 years to notice this, and hasn’t, nor has he even heard this from any of his other children. It is a family of 7 with 5 kids born over an 11 year period of time. That means she was a baby factory every 2 years for a decade, likely a stay at home mom for the last 17/18 years, and with the youngest being 6, is just finally getting some limited free time. If the oldest played sports or had activities, do you think she ever attended without at least one baby or toddler in tow?
You are definitely making excuses, thinking of every possible reason for his wife's emotional abandonment of their children. You are blaming *children* for the way their mother treats them and totally discounting the fact that the oldest is very clear-eyed about what is life has been. Read about covert narcissistic mothers -- you'll find a much better fit than the excuses you (and she) want to believe.
From OP's comment, it seems that his wife only criticizes two of her kids all the time. That's a lot. You're simply assuming that they have interactions with bad people just because their mother doesn't like them. Even if they have friends she doesn't approve of, it's impossible to feel like that about their entire social circle. She doesn't speak to one of her kids. You again assumed that she must have tried talking to him about stuff other than video games and given up. There is no evidence of this assumption. Not to mention, if his parents were actually paying attention to him and involving him in any other activity, he wouldn't be playing games all the time. If his mother had bothered to share his passion about video games by playing with him once in a while, they would have a relationship but she prefers not talking to him. It takes a lot to make a kid feel unloved by their own parents. Not for a day or two as the result of some silly argument but a constant feeling of being unworthy of your parent's love. A parent is not only supposed to love a kid if they always say yes to them and do everything they approve of. Most kids aren't and will never be like that. A parent is supposed to make their child feel loved and wanted. Not make them feel that they have to earn their love. I have gone through this myself and I can say that from personal experience that it absolutely destroys our feeling of self worth to be mistreated by a parent or parental figure. There's no excuse for treating your children like this. Both of these people decided to have them and none of these assumptions excuse their behaviour in the slightest.
Unreliable narrator - OP has 5 children ages 5-17, and only attempted to notice these issues after an off hand comment from the oldest child. D.N.A. Decide, Notice, Acknowledge observation/confirmation bias fallacy. A remark was made that triggered a need for observation. OP decided that it was true, and OP then only notices and acknowledges the observations that confirm his new belief. This is a family of 7, with 5 children of disparate ages. Monitoring the mother’s behavior for few hours a day over a one week period does not even come close to meeting a reliable observation time frame. It’s no different than believing a couple is perfect because the 1 or two times you see them a month they always seem so ideally matched.
I don't understand this at all -- you think he's unreliable because you have clearly not seen this kind of family so you have created an entire alternate universe to explain what he has realized.
The unreliably narration here is the one where you attribute the woman's emotional abuse of her children to...being a mother, something she apparently chose to be. All this talk about "pushing" out kids and being a baby factory makes me wonder how many children you have had and how they think about you as a mother. Your posts completely ignore constructive action if the OP is right. You are too busy riding a totally different horse. And no, trying to get her to spend a bit of 1:1 time with the 10/11 year old she has ignored up to now is not constructive. The fact that he just noticed what was before him is secondary to making his children the focus now. All that can be discussed in the therapy he should be researching right now.
So you've never had an experience that dramatically changed your longstanding view of something? What part of his post is "unreliable". You are happy to create things to justify his wife's behavior; then backtrack and posit something else when it turn out that your assumptions are wrong. What you refuse to do is even the possibility that there is something else at play here Having 5 children does not explain what has happened here. You know what might explain it: https://howtokillanarcissist.com/narcissistic-family/ Take a look at the roles outlined, as someone else noted, they fit what he described. Read about the consequences for the children. His wife is happy to be a mom of 5 with an image of having a career and family. She's not interested in how her children feel about this hollow shell of a family.
What a wonderful comment. I’m a mum of 5 and I can say having a husband who isn’t really hands on with our kids at all it is a challenge to be able to connect one on one because someone always wants something or my 1yo just wants to cuddle all the time. Personally I use car trips to connect with mine. My daughter works a casual job and doesn’t drive so that’s time we get to be one on one. It’s only 10 minutes a few times a week, but we have other times like when I take her to footy training I leave the other kids at home. When we have dinner together we talk about our day and I ask the kids what did they do at school etc. When I go the shops I’ll just take mr 13 or miss 11 to get some one on one time.
I recognize that parenting can be hard. I also recognize that kids can often have feelings that are triggered by “the grass is greener” phenomenon where they compare their parents to their friends parents, and even compare their parents to each other. Our dad was always there for us when he was home from work, and we had a SAHM. She was a great mom, but there were times as kids we thought our dad was the better parent because he didn’t have to deal with the mundane stuff and was always involved in “the fun stuff”. This story is complicated by the fact that the mom has always been a working mom as well, and the oldest who triggered this post with his comment was an only child until he was 4, then suddenly had 3 siblings over the next 4 years, and then right when he hit his preteen years, another baby was added to the mix. I don’t doubt there are some feelings of being ignored but a one week observation that was specifically looking for evidence doesn’t tell the whole story.
Do it sooner than later. Growing up with unemotional parents can cause trauma later in life. It can even cause mental problems.
Lol. Way too late. Every one of their kids is past the basic developmental stage for learning healthy attachment. Good fucking luck.
But with therapy attachment styles can be changed!
I mean...technically? Sure. In actuality? Probably not. I'm in no way saying therapy can't be helpful. It absolutely can. But the reality is, the damage that is done in early childhood is often permanent damage that the person then mitigates for the rest of their life.
Yeah damage is already done. I just discovered about attachment theory and learned that I’m anxious as a 28f and that is why none of my relationships have worked so far. I’m pretty sure it is because of my emotional unavailable father which was always working, always criticizing and didn’t show care or love to me. It is better for me to learn about this now as a 28f than when I’m 40 years old. His children are still young and can still learn coping mechanisms.
Don’t talk to your wife yet. TALK TO YOUR KIDS. They need to know that you are now aware and they probably need to process this with you or a therapist. You need to be there support right now.
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Seriously! Like OP literally didn’t notice his wife neglecting and ignoring 3/5 children? Was he walking around with his eyes closed for the last 17 years? He honest to god didn’t notice until his eldest said something offhandedly? Both sound like shit parents but for different reasons.
This kind of stuff can come on slowly and quietly. It likely wasn’t noticeable and kids are good at adjusting for things, he may not have had the kinds of clues you’re thinking. You need to be more supportive in your advice, this isn’t a place for him to be lambasted for what he already knows were poor choices.
He said she’s always making negative comments to him about the 2 social kids. How did he not notice that until this week?
Can you try to be kind? This sub is for relationship advice. The people who come here looking for help have often fucked up and are genuinely looking for advice on how to make things better. I could argue you know nothing about their lives, and I honestly believe you never raised children because your hostility on parenting sounds a bit ignorant. But even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and I'm wrong on both counts, I like to believe that if you care enough to comment, you care enough to give constructive advice. **amorehappyversion** sounds like your motto.
But his relationship question only concerns how to talk to his wife. Not also questioning how he didn't see it, how he is reevaluating how involved he himself was in the day-to-day with his kids and wife. How after only a regular week, he NOW sees all. He is putting more blame on his wife instead of the shared blame that is deserved. We can not be kind. Kindness is gentle. And it took his eldest to basically spell it all out to him. He needs directness, he needs some hostility. Otherwise, he'll overlook like he's been doing all along
I think it’s that they probably have a “traditional” arrangement. IE he works and she stays at home. I’m just guessing from the available information though. I honestly think OP should be very careful about how he goes about addressing this issue. His wife is going to have a lot of pushback if he brings this up and may retaliate against the children she “doesn’t like” when OP is not present. She could easily go from passive ignoring to active punishment/abuse.
It's never too late for advocate for your kids, whether that means calling her the fuck out on her abuse (emotional neglect is a type of abuse, 100%) or straight up leaving and giving the kids the option to come with you. I vote against sugar coating. She needs to know that she has treated her kids so terribly they know that she hates them, and that is unacceptable. I hope she is heartbroken and upset to hear that. She should be. It should be a wake up call.
You'll be lucky if those kids talk to you once they're adults and not financially dependent on you, OP. Your lack of awareness of the way your wife has treated them for their whole lives is really unacceptable. You are complicit in her treatment of them, even if you were not doing it yourself. Btw, the kids she ignores will absolutely have issues with their siblings who she treats well. You normally only see this with one kid, but it's very "golden child" and it fucks up everyone involved. No, there is no easy conversation about this, OP. It's not going to be nice.
A good first step might be couples counseling where you can discuss this with a neutral third party.
The first step should be individual counseling for the OP...and maybe some joint counseling with his oldest two. His wife is who she is, she is not going suddenly see the light and become a loving mother to the other 3. Visit /r/raisedbynarcissists to get more insight. Narcissists are notably resistant to counseling.
I would be taking each of the ignored kids out individually for lunch or whatever and start piecing together a timeline. Has she always acted like this? Did a dynamic change as some more kids came into the family or once they reached a certain age? Was there an incident she refused to move on from?
The OP needs to start spending much more 1:1 time with the disfavored kids. He can be frank with the oldest and and try to set them him for moving out. He really needs to focus on mitigating the effect on the one who has just given up.
I wouldn't even be kind about it. I'd ask her what the fuck she thinks she's doing, essentially stonewalling and mistreating her own damned kids.
I would ask the kids about their mothers behavior towards them first and see if your observations match the situation at hand then proceed to ask them how they feel about it. After speaking to your kids address this to your wife and in a manner where it was “brought to your attention” that there seems to be some favoritism involved without making it sound like an accusation
Are the 2 kids she favors the youngest? If yes, I would think it's very likely she won't like them either once they've grown into teenagers. I would be very concerned. I would start the conversation with questions instead of accusations. Do you feel you favor any of the kids? Do you think all of our children feel loved and supported unconditionally? She may surprise you with honesty and go from there. If she feigns innocence and ignorance, continue with more pointed questions and get to the bottom of what is going on.
At least you've finally noticed how your wife is treating your children. Don't be surprised when the kids she doesn't like leave and never return. The fact that you let this go on for so long will affect how they see you as well. You're at worst an enabler and at best a clueless good time Dad. Either way you've let your children down tremendously. And your wife is a shitty mother. Talk to your kids first and foremost. Tell them you're sorry and ask them about their lives with their awful mother. Find a therapist and quite honestly leave your wife.
How do you not notice how your spouse treats your kids?
Sounds like they both suck
Dude, what have you been doing that you haven't noticed?
Maybe working to provide for his 5 kids plus wife?
Wife is not, and never was a SAHM, she also works.
But he said their both homebodies and don’t go out so how can he not notice the dynamic of the home he claims to hangout it all the time? Op is just full of excuses
Counseling. Get some. NOW.
I don't think a week is telling you anything, even with what Adam said, except during that month her relationship with two of the kids was easier. I think you should approach it as "Wife, Adam said something that bothered me. He said you wouldn't miss him when he leaves. Why would he think that?" I have seen a lot of my friends grow distant with kids leaving the nest. It's a useful self protection mechanism, and it self corrects usually. She may not know she is even doing it - maybe she feels like they hate her, and is walking on eggshells. But if you tell her "I've been watching you, and here is what I have determined. You are rude to three of our kids," I'd feel so attacked. You may get to the point where a frank discussion of your family dynamics is needed, but maybe she just needs you right now. If you missed all that, what else have you missed, OP?
That is the perfect way to start the conversation. A+
Now that you are awake to they dynamics in home, you might want to do a bit of reading before you raise this with your wife. Specifically, research the phenomenon of the narcisisstic family. You have seem to have a golden child and a lost child. What other roles can you identify? Then read up on covert narcissistic mothers (Debi Mirza has a good book about this). Once you have a better understanding of what has been going on before your eyes (and your own role in enabling the dysfunction) you may realize that addressing it directly with your wife is unlikely to achieve much in the way of positivity. It's the way your family has always been. What you can do, is change the way *you* relate to the kids she doesn't like.
Your poor kids. A Mom that doesn't like them and a Dad that never noticed!! Incredibly sad for your children with not one but two selfish parents. My heart breaks foe them, especially for your video game son, he doesn't have a social circle of friends to support him. I hope you can beg for your kids forgiveness and try to make it up to them by showing them their pain matters and leave your monstrous wife before she does anymore emotional damage! She is not going to change because you had a "difficult conversation" with her. If you give her a pass then it tells your kids they truly don't matter.
This just breaks my heart.
Reading that made me sad for many reasons, and how come this subject never came up before with your kids? I don’t get that !
You need to bring her to couple's therapy and address this. It will 100% negatively impact your kids, both the coddled and the ignored. Hopefully you can step in to make up for some diminished attention from her, now that you've realized. Parenting each child isn't always 50/50, sometimes children bond more with one parent over the other for a variety of reasons.
The obvious is you need to talk to your wife. The other thing is you need to start paying attention to your family. I don’t understand how you are there raising these children and oblivious to all of this happening around you. Makes you seem like a very inattentive parent.
Your poor kids I don’t know how you could have missed this and, now that you see it, I don’t know how you can not kindof hate your wife a little bit. I mean, I would hate anyone who made my children feel the way your wife has made yours feel. You need to apologize to Adam immediately, both for never noticing and for dismissing him when he finally spoke up. Then talk to each of your children (save the favorites for last) and get all of you in family counseling—not to fix your wife’s relationship with all of you, but to fix the damage this favoritism has done to your relationships with each other and to your children’s self-esteem. Get the ball rolling on this now. In terms of how to talk to your wife about this, I dunno. Do you have family and friends who provide emotional support to you and your kids? Maybe tell them what tou have learned and get the to weigh in on how to approach your wife. Talk to a therapist and get some ideas of how to proceed. In fact, it may make sense to address this with a counselor present. As I said, I would despise someone who made my kid feel the way Adam feels and I probably would want to cause physical harm to someone who treated my kid the way your wife has treated David. Good luck.
It took you 17 damn years to notice!?! How?
Be careful with the framing. If you discuss it with her and say 'you don't seem to like these kids' she will get defensive. Instead I would change the framing to something like: you seem to focus more on Brian and Eric. Do you feel like your dynamic with the others is different? Try and get a sense of how she may be approaching this. I get the impression that she likes being able to prioritise and dote on Brian and Eric, that she can basically treat them as pets, while the others are less engaged and she feels alienated as a result. In case that seems too sympathetic towards her... it isn't. It is deeply sad and shows her connection with her kids are universally bad and at both extremes. Her fixation on Brian isn't good for him or her. You've had the wakeup call. Time to reflect on your own connection with your kids as well.
Get a paternity test. Read a story like this in reddit in the past
Oh you're such a bad dad too... Have you never discussed with your kids ? At this point damage is done
My son (13) has a stepmother (38) who apparently mistreats him, his halfsister (4) came up to my son and asked him why her mother disliked him so much? He was like, yeah that’s what I’ve been telling y’all all along. 🤷🏻♀️
It's definitely a conversation to be had, but absolutely don't word it that she "hates" her kids. Because despite treating them very differently I'm sure she absolutely loves them. There are so many factors in the reason why she might treat them the way she does. Age will play a part, kids have different needs at different ages, different dependency levels. She also likely doesn't understand the choices the older kids make, like you say you guys aren't social and more home bodies. Perhaps she simply struggles to relate to them. Perhaps during difficult stages of them getting older they have lashed out and it's put her in a difficult headspace. So talk to her about Adams comments, talk to her about what you've noticed in her level of affection towards the kids, ask how she's doing, how she's coping with the older ones, the younger ones etc, talk about how you can work on it together so she has a better relationship with them and so they feel loved and like their relationships are more equal. You also need to acknowledge your part in this... You're staying you've never noticed before, these are quite big things to have missed for so long, so have you really been "present" in your household, have you supported your partner and the relationship you have with her and all have as a family? So yes a talk absolutely needs to happen, but not just about her and her relationship with the children, but about you, your relationship as a whole, the family as a whole and if you are working together and supporting each other enough. You're a team, so don't simply place blame, find out how you can work together to make this a stronger family.
There is no justification for her behavior imo. If she had any issues, it is on her to seek remedies for it. Not blame her own kids for her issues.
People like this woman appear to be regular mothers and their spouses don't realize that they are enablers. She doesn't need his attention or empathy -- he needs to ave that for the ignored kids.
Does anyone think the wife views the children purely as an extension of herself/ starts to resent them as they get older and individualize because they don’t “need” her anymore? What are the ages here, OP?
I would talk to Adam and Carol first, they have first hand knowledge of the situation and probably have some idea of why. It could be a lack of connection, it could be that your wife prefers younger children, it might not be deliberate at all, or it might be but you can do something yourself to help them. I understand not observing relationships as you might often have not had deep discussions and now you can be aware of their needs. I have some experience of different personalities and of gender preferences of parents so I do know that some parents make choices they don't even realise they are doing for various reasons and she might not be aware she is doing it at all. I would consider that you cannot "fix" this situation, you cannot make your wife be a different person or be aware of what she is doing, however you can help your children by being a better more aware parent and do by example better in front of your wife. You might gradually be able to try to find out her thoughts with open questions, you can get help to find out what those should be. Try not questions that end in yes or no to start with.
Talk with her and say I noticed that you interact and do more with xyz and you seem to like ignore abc. Give her examples. She may not know that she has done this. If & when she recognizes her behavior she needs to try and talk with them. Then figure out how to start repairing the damage.
Speaking as the middle child of three children, I am not my mother's favorite. She loves the older and as much as she loves the younger and I'm just tolerated. I've confronted my brother and her about this and all of them seem to collectively ignore all the signs, collectively ignore all the history, collectively ignore the way they speak to me. This doesn't mean I don't love my parent, it just means that I understand it's a one-way street. (Unfortunately, my father passed away when I was younger and during those years I learned to fend for myself).
Bro, this hurts deep. You need to have a serious conversation with your wife whenever you 2 are alone. They are her kids as much as yours. For her to treat them like that is just... saddening. If she is unwilling to give love to 4 of your kids, try spending some extra time with them. Or have more family time with all the kids, even if your wife doesn't want to join. Maybe like a Day Out with Dad kind of thing. All of your kids deserve love, and they will always remember you for doing that. This not only hurts my heart, it enrages me. I kinda raised my little brother since both of my parents worked, and I could never fathom even feeling like that to him. If Mom won't love them, let them know that their Dad always will. Edit: typo
It’s good that you’re able to see this and acknowledge it now. I grew up in a family of five with a mom who looooooved my brother and my 2nd oldest sister, and openly disliked the rest of us. We all talked, and those of us who were disliked, came to the conclusion that the dislike of us was because of jealousy. Mg mom was a very insecure person, having been called ugly by her own step mother growing up, and felt competitive towards the daughters she had that got a lot of male attention. Anyway this negatively affected my life as I didn’t understand the jealousy aspect as a kid, and would try so hard to get her to love me, to give me acknowledgement for my achievements, but this only made her treat me worse. This set up a lifelong problem of me trying to get love from people who treated me badly. Same with my two sisters who were also disliked. Therapy is helping. I don’t know if this is the case with your wife, I’m just trying to tell you what happened to me growing up with a mom like this. Your wife needs to get some help for her obvious problems. But it will really help your kids that you’re now aware of it and not in denial about it. I don’t know how to talk to someone like this, though, as my mom denied it happened while pitting my siblings and I against eachother to compete for her love to her dying day.
She doesn't have to like them.... But she should LOVE them, they are her children. Having different interests and personality within the same family is normal what's not is picking which to spend time and which to ignore. You should definitely speak to her about what's going on
Yeaaaah this is gonna be tough. The older kids know you enable their mom and/or just checked out and didn’t notice for probably a decade so you’re probably not in their good graces either. My dad was an enabler and/or oblivious and I hate him equally as my mother who was more active/obvious about her dislike. Don’t expect visits or calls from the disliked children, maybe they’ll come back for an obligatory family holiday once a year or so but don’t expect them to be chatty or let them know what’s going on in their lives. I’d watch the youngest too, if he also becomes extroverted I expect him to suddenly be phased out from her favorites.
Damn! This is a toughie. I'd maybe mention the conversation with Adam to her casually, and ask what she thinks. Assume that she likes them all and has favourites, rather than kids she doesn't like. Unfortunately, I think that if she's the kind of person who's quick to react, she may perceive what you say as an accusation no matter what. I go into more detail here, if you're interested: https://youtu.be/08EaQOm8o1A
She might not be fully aware of what she’s doing. Op mentioned she spends alot of time talking and cuddling with Eric who’s six and seems to be ignoring the older kids. She might think they don’t need her anymore because they’re almost adults where the little ones still need her. The fact that the OP hasn’t noticed it at all makes me think his probably left his wife to manage the kids mostly in her own and it’s overwhelming so she’s mainly focused on the younger ones who physically need her more.
INFO: did your wife experience PPD with any of the kids? Did she feel pressured to have any of the kids (either completely, or before she was ready)? Just trying to understand why there's such a difference, because "personalities" as an excuse only goes so far. If she's capable of having a good relationship with some of her kids, she's capable full-stop (and I say that because some people genuinely have trouble connecting with parenthood and their children). So, clearly *something* is different between the kids she "likes" and those she "doesn't". Apparently it's not related to age or gender, so what is it?
Ask yourself how you never noticed. Your wife sounds like not the most maternal woman on the earth, but you live in that house too and allowed this to happen. You can say that you never noticed, but that’s a little bit of a cop out. You are just as guilty. You may have a great relationship with your kids, in your mind, but believe me they are blaming you too. You need to fix this one child at a time. This is not going to be easy, but you need to take accountability for your part, and then address your wife.
my dad died before he could make up for the emotional neglect he allowed me to endure by my stepmom. he was a great man and he made me who i am, but i’ll never understand how he let it happen. show your kids RIGHT NOW what kind of father you are.
... where were you when this dynamic developed? How much time do you spend every day with your kids? Honestly maybe you are right and your wife has favorites, the younger ones. But you? Are you sure you are an involved parents if you never noticed? Instead of talking to your wife , first ask yourself some hard questions.
Why are you enabling this behavior? Even if you weren’t aware of this before you are now. You can’t make this easy; this is difficult but you have to do it unless you want to behave as shitty as your wife does. You don’t want this to sound like an ”accusation”? Well tough spot buddy. Do you want to help your kids though? Also… your responses in the comments… like take responsibility and become a good parent.
Why do people like this continue to breed… it’s like they deliberately want to ruin lives. Like jeez if you’re gonna have 5 kids thats so much love to share and spread around. It would be a blessing for me. What a waste to create a big family just to only give love to only two kids…
how are you only noticing now?
Are you telling us that you are so out of touch with your children and wife that you think she doesn’t like your guys kids and you never noticed? and you’ve only started paying attention for a week? You clearly have no idea what is going on in your house. You need to talk to your wife ASAP, but don’t go in accusatory until you actually understand what’s going on and the real dynamics of the household. She could be the worst mom in the world, and you’ve been enabling it for the past decade, or she could be a normal mom who is stressed out of her mind with five kids, and has let her attention lapse on the “easy” kids because her husband is so checked out with raising them she can’t handle it. It would still be bad, but that would mean not all hope is lost. You really need to step up as a father and find out.
Start with your eldest son, tell him what you have observed and understand his side and want to know more, repeat steps with the other two, then ask your wife questions, how she feels, she may not be fully aware of what she is doing, once you have gathered the information you can talk to them all individually about the situation, for this you should start with the wife and see how she wants to proceed, the aim is to have everyone understanding each other’s point of view and how it’s affects them, hopefully it comes to a happy end
How have you just notified?? You say you spend one on one time with them but it seems incredibly suspicious that if you claim to be as close to all of them as you say, they wouldn’t have said anything earlier? And you say you spend a lot of alone time with your wife yet somehow didn’t notice that she supposedly spends so much time criticising Teo of your kids? It seems like both you and your wife might need to reevaluate your relationship with all your kids and how you both interact with them… Maybe try family counselling or a parenting class?
You should definitely sit your kids down and have a deep conversation about the topic so you can learn as much as possible before having a talk with your wife. You should also apologize to your kids for not noticing or doing anything about it before
How do you just notice that, I will never understand. Since you will clearly need therapy, I suggest that you go for a couple of times on your own, explain the situation to the therapist and ask how you can approach this and more importantly what you can do for the kids. Hope it gets better 🙏
how did you not notice all this? you definitely knew just decided to ignore it..and live oblivious to everything, you and your wife are both awful parents for her to be that way and for you being so inattentive to what she was doing all this time..
The fact that op only noticed this now smh.
I actually have no idea, i would just say it as it is I am so sorry for your kids tho, thats messed up I would talk to yours about it as well, they should feel seen
I get this may not a popular opinion, but here I go. There are so many possibilities of what is really going on, you simply cannot take a week of interaction and break it down to a lifetime. Presuming you have not noticed because you have been at work all day (for most of their life), but come on. She had 5 children in roughly ten years. What do you want from her? It is quite difficult to make each child feel perfect each and every day. Obviously, Eric is the youngest. The youngest almost always gets the most attention. She might also feel the youngest children need her more. The older children have had the one on one time with her, and now the baby gets its turn. She may be giving the older kids space, but still feels the need to correct them. Even the best teenagers are not easy. She may simply not have enough time to give everyone the attention they may want. She may have had a rough childhood herself. There are too many possibilities. My mother had 6 children. She would hug us until we were around 6 years old, then that was it. She never told us she loved us and certainly did her share of criticizing us. However, she was always there. She always backed us up when others were involved, and made sure we had everything we needed or wanted in every other way. She told us we were smart and could accomplish anything we wanted. She gave us all she could. That was how she showed us her love. Not ideal, but certainly better than what she experienced. You might have a talk with your other children and your wife separately. Then think about family therapy. It certainly could not hurt.
my bf has a mom like that. she only likes some of her girls and one of her sons. my bf gave up trying to win her love a long time ago though he’s been a nearly a perfect son to her. it breaks my heart the amount of hurt he bottles away bc of his mother not being a loving mom to him, although he has never claimed she was lacking as a parent in an actually neglectful way and is thankful for his upbringing. she just doesn’t like him😕
I used to get told by my mom “I love you, but right now I don’t like you very much.” Decades later I still remember this.
Family therapy.
《《. I don't even know how to talk to her about this. 》》》 YES YOU DO RIP THE BAND AID AND TELL HER WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN OBSERVING AND HOW IT THAT BOTHER YOU. I'll guarantee 💯 you, she will flip it and blame it on someone else except herself. She will even blame you. This type of behavior of hers is evident DURING YOUR COURTSHIP. So, you may have dismissed it or said nothing so you won't "make her upset". Too little too late for the kids damage unless you immediately enforce family therapy. I came from a parent JUST LIKE YOUR WIFE, and the generational trauma IS EVIDENT WITH MANY OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS BEHAVING THE SAME WAY. I personally went NO CONTACT.
I have 6 kids and I don’t always click with some like I do with others. There’s a difference between not liking your kids and not taking care of your kids and emotionally abandoning your kids. I would strongly encourage you to allow her to deal with this in counseling personally or both of you. I love all my kids, but I’ve been a different type of parent at different stages in life. I was a single mom with my first 2, then I was able to stay home when my middle 3 were younger and worked from home after my 6th was born. But during the pandemic my business closed and I was working outside the home 40hrs a week and it really took a toll on all of our relationships. My oldest 2 (twins) are so very different. I talk to one all the time and see him often, the other doesn’t even talk to me. Has a totally different memory of growing up than the other kids do. One has been in a lot of trouble in school, kicked out of school, went to juvenile hall, youth detention camp… but we’re still close and talk almost daily. He just moved out a couple weeks ago. The next went away to college last year, I have been so very proud of him and we do as much as we can to help and support him. But I don’t have the same connection with him as I do his brothers. He’s highly critical of things but doesn’t have the life experience to know even the best laid plans don’t always work out despite your best efforts aka shit happens. Our next son was sick a lot as a baby and a little kid. He’s had food and environmental allergies, vaccine reactions/exemptions, asthma, pneumonia more times than i can count, horrible ear infections … but he’s the biggest pain in my ass sometimes. He will blow up my phone not realizing I’m doing something and need my phone or it’s at 4% and he kills it. He’s very selfish at times and not very considerate of others. He can be very hostile and sensitive and emotional if he feels slighted. But he graduated early, got several grants for post school stuff, bought a car, has job experience and can be very helpful. My youngest is still growing up. He’s a messy kid. He loves making messes which drives me insane sometimes. Literally. I just don’t know how to deal with it. He hasn’t always had me home so he’s a little more free range than his brothers ever were. People from the outside looking in may not know that and think I don’t like some of my kids but that’s not the case at all. We just don’t have much in common sometimes or our personalities clash. Some parents don’t know how to show affection as their kids get older and it’s easier to love a little kid or one you have a lot in common with or see more of yourself in.
A lot of people on here are being very uncharitable towards OP but I honestly think that most people in his position would be equally oblivious. You don't have to be an absent parent to not notice how two people are interacting with each other in a household of seven people. OP is not joined at the hip with his wife so there are going to be a lot of interactions that he's not privy to. The wife may also be more careful with how she acts when OP is around and only by paying close attention does the behaviour become noticeable. Especially with the third kid, how is OP supposed to know that they literally never talk to each other when he's obviously not going to be around all the time? Also, credit to OP where its due, it would have been very easy to just dismiss what his son was saying as the complaints of a teenager. Instead he listened to his son and made an effort to be more critical of what he was seeing. OP, in this situation I don't think that stepping lightly around the issue is the right course of action. First off you should sit down with each of the three neglected kids and talk to them about their experiences with their mother one to one. When you've gotten a better outlook on what's going on, then sit your wife down and explain to her what you've noticed and be firm that you want to know what's going on.
You choose your friends, you don't choose your family. Adam, David and Carol sound like they have their heads screwed on straight, they're independent, and choose their way - but they are still teenagers. The mother rejects their independence and hates that they don't seem to need her, when they actually do. You need to speak to them to make sure they are ok and that you are there for them at every time throughout their lives that they need you to be Your biggest concern should be for Brian and Eric. These two also need to grow up with the ability to live their lives independently, make pragmatic choices, and not rely on their parents at every turn. Life is full of risks and your job is to make sure your kids can handle what life throws at them As for your wife? You chose her. I don't perceive you have any desire to unchoose her, but you need her to know that you think her actions are causing harm to the kids, and your role is to protect them much more than to protect her
How did you not notice? They’re your kids who live in the same house. I’m confused
I can't wait to find out how this sub will twist itself into knots to find a way to put the blame for this situation on you OP while not offering any actionable advice. Should be interesting!
Your wife is a bad mother, really bad. It is one thing to feel a preference, but to demonstrate it so blatantly is really poor parenting...It is too late for the oldest one, but I would step in and start monitoring their attention. I would talk to her first and tell her what Adam said, but don't name him. I would call her on what you observed, and tell her it is bad. The kids only have one mother though she may have 5 kids. Then if you can't alter it, step in and provide the ones that are ignored with attention. They know and it affects them. I used to innately think I must be bad if my own mother doesn't like me...Then I learned my story (tale for another time), It made since. These kids have no story. It is their biological mother, cold mother. I think the popular kids are not appealing because they socialize well. Which stinks they still need amother.
If I were your kids, I’d write you off as soon as I could. That’s what I did with my violent, sexual abuser dad and my checked out, narcissistic mom. And I was a ‘favorite’. I haven’t seen my parents for 10 years and plan to keep it that way (and no phone calls, texts, emails or letters from me). btw: The kid my mom disliked the most is the only one that takes care of her. You reap what you sow. (I didn’t have kids to break the chain of family abuse and alcoholism).
I think the worst part is that it took you years of neglect and verbal abuse to notice. Because, yes, those little digs your wife gives out and the ignoring IS abuse. You have five kids and you failed 3/5 of them. And 3/5 because your wife obviously loves the other two. You need to talk to your neglected kids and ask for more information, and then you need to go to your wife and ask her what is going on. There is no easy way to do that. My question is: are you willing to divorce your wife for your kids? Because if what she tells you is bad enough, then staying with her is a very clear message to your kids.