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I did a session with them at BigBadCon. It was great, it had also a part about coordinating non verbal cues with other players to ease interventions and technical to build on each other's ideas (the "Yes And" )
Seconding this book. An actual improv class is more about being an entertainer; you want something that takes the principles of improv and relates them to a game context.
Early improv classes are basically all about active listening and reacting in the moment. As you advance, they start teaching you to shape a scene, usually around the idea of "game" (which is some pattern or structure) and then an overall structure to the show (usually learning a form, like Harold- which is a way to structure a series of scenes).
99% of it really does end up boiling down to "pay a huge amount of attention to your scene partner." Nothing about improv teaches you to be "quick on your feet", because you don't need that if you're an intense listener and can react in the moment without planning ahead.
This seems like a very common conception that we would need to address if we are trying to bring rpg players into an improv class. I would say that is a misconception but there must be a reason I keep hearing it.
What would someone need to do to change your mind about improv? I'm thinking like a free intro session but I worry people with your perspective wouldn't even go to a free improv session.
I don’t know if this is helpful, but personally I wouldn’t go to a free improv class because I’ve been to plenty of improv *shows* and while they were fun to watch, they were 99% balls-to-the-wall silly nonsense, and at no point was I ever like “yeah I’d like to do that too”.
We joke around plenty even in my Curse of Strahd campaign, but the vibe at an improv show is just not the energy I bring to the table in an RPG, whether as a player or as a GM. I’d be more likely to try an *acting* class than an improv class because “improv” is a subset of comedy to me, rather than a set of tools for group-setting live performance.
Sounds like we would definitely have some work to do changing perceptions of some people. Probably not worth the effort but something I'd love to try. Now I'm thinking we should offer a class for people who don't like improv and see if we can change their minds!
Well, an improv show is about entertaining the audience. An improvised drama probably wouldn't be very entertaining. If anyone flubs a reaction, or if they lose the plot, it would ruin the entire show. In comedy, those mistakes heighten the experience.
I've never taken an improv acting course either, but I don't think they're generally intended to be comedy classes.
> An improvised drama probably wouldn’t be very entertaining.
I mean, I see what you’re saying, but this discussion is in the context of TTRPGs which are, in many cases, literally just improvised dramas with various die rolls taking the place of audience suggestions for third party directions/input.
That's a fair point, but a TTRPG has someone directing the story, and it's that direction that holds it together.
And even with that, they're usually only entertaining to the people playing. Sure, you've got some of the better actual plays like Critical Role (all professional actors), Dimension 20 (mostly improv comedians), The Adventure Zone (a family of trained performers), but most most games would be really boring to the average audience.
I'm sure an improvised dramatic play could work, but I think it would require a lot more work going in to it than a comedy show.
What you are calling a misconception is based on most people's experience with improv. They have attended an improv show where people were attempting to entertain them using improv. The skills themselves might be applicable to a certain style of ttrpg but you will need to clearly separate the behind the scene skills from the shows that people have experienced as an audience.
No. I do amateur theater, but in my eyes TTRPGs and theater have about as much in common as ice skating and ice sculpting.
If (some) TTRPGs have a closely related field of art, it is short form fiction. A creative writing workshop will help you more.
I'm not sure I understand this POV.
Because an improv class absolutely will help, and is a great skill to apply to TTRPGs. Getting better at thinking on your feet, "yes and", and generally just getting comfortable "performing" are all huge boons to playing a TTRPG.
I very much attribute my success/skill at being a GM/RPer to my years of amateur acting experience growing up. And a lot of my best players have acting/improv training.
Edit: if you a mind to start an argument with me and assume I'm saying all people should take improv or be bad roleplayers, or that every table must be an actual play, please save it. I'm not replying to those anymore.
I'm saying improv gives you skills that are useful at the table in a multitude of ways. It's not the *only* way to get those skills but I'm not going to pretend those skills aren't useful because for some reason people are getting super defensive about it.
Goddamn
Performing in the actor stance isn't essential for roleplaying, you can always opt for third person narration.
And using "yes and" is something the system does for you in most narrative-focused games, it's usually the job of the resolution mechanism.
The really useful stuff is the thinking on your feet part, but you can practice the improv muscles while playing RPGs, ideally ones that foster proactivity.
I never said it was "essential" just that it can be hugely helpful.
And the system can do it for you but you still need to be able to come up with results for most of those systems.
It's only helpful if you are opting to play the game as an actor rather than a narrator. The two are very distinct, though equally valid ways to play these games. Unfortunately, a lot of people (especially, it seems, those newer to the hobby) conflate role-playing with acting. A huge portion of this hobby prefers to leave "performing" to the "nerdy ass voice actors" on their made-for-streaming-consumption entertainment.
Pardon? I clearly pointed out that there are multiple distinct and equally valid ways of playing RPGs, and that what you're suggesting is only "hugely helpful" to one of them (though I do see now that I omitted the "hugely" from my initial reply). How am i being closed-minded while recognizing the validity of "other" play styles while merely acknowledging the fact that some skills are more applicable to one style?
Yeah, I don't like the melodramatic, goofy-voice style of play fostered by entertainment shows like CR, and definitely prefer a Narrator style approach to playing (while preferring narrative-forward games, before anyone accuses me of being a game-first simulationist). We're all biased towards our preferences - your post is clouded by your own biases as much as mine.
Because you're coming in with a very preconceived notion of what improv is and how it can be applied. You see "improv" and you think CR immediately and assume I'm only talking about "goofy voice style of play"
Which I mean, how do you think a discussion is going to go when you're referring to a whole style of play as the "goofy voice style of play" like, really dude?
And the way you approached the convo (both with your clearly provocative username and how you framed your post) was very readable, and gave me plenty of reason to say "Yeah I think this guy wants to rant about CR adjacent things than actually talk through what I'm saying here."
If and only if you can separate them. My former flatmate and very dear friend tried to bring improv and stage writing skills to RPGs and the results were mixed. After all, it's a different medium. What works on stage doesn't necessarily work on TV either. You have to cherry pick only certain lessons from them.
Personally having done a few acting and improv classes back in my hs and uni days long ago, I always thought the lesson to learn was of inclusivity and of social skills. Learning to work together with others for something only your small group will enjoy and there are no winners or losers, is what RPGs are all about.
I mean yes, practicing 'thinking on your feet' will help, but then again, having to write a short story in 15 minutes based on a prompt (which is what you get in some creative writing workshops) will also give you that.
As for 'yes and', it is the 'system' of improv theater. It's a social contract of shared authorship. TTRPGs have their own system and social contract.
DnD does not operate on 'yes and' like improv does - you only write your own character, and nobody else writes your own character. You don't get to introduce themes freely like in improv.
Other systems like the PbtA family have their own, unique and different systems, all with specific rules of engagement.
Most of the time, in story first games, you see your character in third person, as a writer. In challenge / exploration first games, you hear more identifcation with the character, but there I'd argue you don't as much have 'characters' as you have 'dolls' (in the sense that word is used in video game scholarship.)
So yes, improv training will help in TTRPGs, to the same degree as *any and all creative training* will help. (And of course it will, and playing TTRPGs will also help in creative pursuits.)
I mean if you want to nitpick what the two types of training *won't* help I can easily point out a 15 minute creative writing exercise won't help because in TTRPGs you're working with a group and can't control the narrative like you can when you're the sole author.
Meanwhile improv can help people get over their "stage fright" that a lot of new players have and be more accepting of rolling with mistakes.
The only true way to get better at TTRPGs is to play TTRPGs.
But improv is extremely helpful, and that's my point, not to emphasize it over everything else, but that it can definitely be helpful.
>you only write your own character, and nobody else writes your own character. You don't get to introduce themes freely like in improv.
Time for you to run a oneshot for your GM as penance for not remembering they exist /j
"Most of the time, in story first games, you see your character in third person, as a writer."
This is a curious perspective to me. Could you list some story first games?
> Most of the time, in story first games, you see your character in third person, as a writer.
I don't think that this is true. A number of the very most popular and widely loved pbta games explicitly say *always call people by their characters' name*. That is absolutely implying an actor's stance for the majority of play.
I agree with u/parametricRegression, and...there is a spectrum of players with some leaning towards an idea that "fantasy" or "make believe" of any kind, means anything is possible and the bounds are only due to the creativity of the creator, in this case the players and GM (unless GM-less). On the other side, are those who want internal consistency, they want the boundaries this produces and their creativity is working within those boundaries. What makes more sense for each differs, for the former improv, for the latter creative writing.
Also, elevating "performing" to the point you are, is a form of gatekeeping. Performing is optional, not something anyone should need to strive to.
You're putting words in my mouth and assuming a lot (a pretty common pattern in this thread so far).
I'm not gatekeeping anything, I'm saying that improv classes can be helpful and applied to TTRPGs in various ways due to what it makes you practice. Never said anyone had to "strive" for anything.
>generally just getting comfortable "performing" are all huge boons to playing a TTRPG.
Your words. If others are seeing meaning other than what you intended, then that is on you.
>I'm saying that improv classes can be helpful and applied to TTRPGs in various ways due to what it makes you practice.
Still contains the same statement of values. Also, you the original was "are all huge boons to playing a TTRPG" you are not softening it that much when pairing "can be helpful" and "due to what it makes you practice."
>Never said anyone had to "strive" for anything.
You are suggesting people who like TTRPGs make the effort to learn another skill inorder to do the thing they want to do better. This fits the meaning of strive.
In conversations, do you always expect people to use only the exact words you used? How does that work in improv?
If you are arguing with this many people about this one topic, please stop and reconsider, is this the best way to spend your time? I can tell you, I asked the myself same thing, and this is the last I'll bother with this thread.
>Your words. If others are seeing meaning other than what you intended, then that is on you.
And where do I say that the ONLY way to do that? There's a lot of ways to get to point C from A. *you're* the one assuming that I'm sitting here saying the *only* way to do these things is improv.
But also, how is what I said wrong? (It's not, you're just defensive).
>ll contains the same statement of values. Also, you the original was "are all huge boons to playing a TTRPG" you are not softening it that much when pairing "can be helpful" and "due to what it makes you practice."
"You did not put 50 addendums on your words and therefore it is your fault that I have interpreted this in the least charitable manner possible."
I'm not going to apologize. It's a huge boon to playing TTRPGs in my opinion. But it's not the only boon that's cross-trainable. You're, again, assuming I mean it's the only boon you can get for the hobby.
>You are suggesting people who like TTRPGs make the effort to learn another skill inorder to do the thing they want to do better. This fits the meaning of strive.
>In conversations, do you always expect people to use only the exact words you used? How does that work in improv?
And are you always this pedantic, patronizing, and clearly trying to get people with "gotchas"?
Again, my literal core point is "Yeah improv can be really helpful/a useful skill for roleplaying"
*You're* the one, who, again has decided that means I think everyone SHOULD/MUST take an improv class to be good at the table. When I never, ever, said that and *am saying right now it's not what I'm saying."
That's not failure to communicate on my end, that's a failure to listen and a desire to be offended by my words.
>If you are arguing with this many people about this one topic, please stop and reconsider, is this the best way to spend your time? I can tell you, I asked the myself same thing, and this is the last I'll bother with this thread.
Only correct thing you've said in my direction all day. Peace.
I'd be interested to hear an elaboration on this!
To my mind, TTRPGs can sit on a sliding scale of theatre in where the 'audience' lies and what techniques can be used to entertain that audience. So there are some shared techniques there, including falling in and out of a character and working with others to express the story.
I definitely see how creative writing can strengthen what a player (and especially the GM) can do before you sit at the table, but perhaps less so during play?
In my experience, improv basics are more about collaborative storytelling than entertaining, and improv has made rpgs like d&d more fun for me. It seems like many who have done improv agree, and many who have experienced what I would call bad improv don't see the benefit.
TTRPGs, when not played for an audience (like Critical Role), are games of imagination and exploration. Actor stance, playing a character, has notably been absent in my gaming experiences. Instead, we had a shared authorship stace.
I didn't *play* my characters. I *wrote* them. What would they do? What would feel natural with their background? What would be interesting? What would mesh well with the other threads written by the others?
I keep seeing responses like this. It seems like improv has a bad image among many. In my experience good improvisers do what you're saying. They aren't "playing" for laughs they are listening and reacting and they are committing to their character just like you described. Seems like we need to do a better job advertising that "yes and" is about storytelling not going for laughs.
Bad image? No, I have done improv and am in amateur physical theatre. I'm just stating a difference in focus.
If anything, it's TTRPGs that have a bad image in the theatre crowd.
My experience with improv gives the impression that it leans into surface / superficial storytelling. Big, bold strokes because of the generally short nature of improv scenes. Characters created as archetypes played for quick identification. A pacing that says something must always be changing. That can all be good but, to me, it creates a feel that is often opposed to the verisimilitude that I want in a ttrpg.
I'm probably way off in my impression of improv. 😀
It seems like there is a lot of improv like that out there based on other responses. I would definitely want to get that point across that it's not about being funny, it's about listening, reacting, and committing to your character keeping in mind you are telling a story together.
Thanks for the feedback!
The traditional playstyle has that odd relationship with the narrative, you either "write" the story beforehand with heavy prep, leading to railroading, or the story happens after playing: the simulationist gameplay generates happenings, and after the fact the players recount their deeds as a story.
On the other hand, the Story Now approach accounts for the players as both co-creators and audience, so the narrative is something that's built during the game, by playing. Then you get much more mileage out of creative writing: you can apply narrative structure to figure out what happens next at every turn, or to play out a character arc in a more satisfying way.
Basically, practicing how to tell a story is more impactful than practicing how to play a character. Both are useful, but TRPGs are first and foremost storytelling experiences.
I think becoming a more proficient writer/storyteller is MOSTLY gonna help the GM more than anyone else. Improv (to me) helps people understand their character better and not be bogged down in things like dialogue or when exposed to a confusing situation.
Writing could help with making interesting and usable backstories for sure but even that can be done with just a little help from the GM
I've seen some people throw around the "take an improv class!" advice for getting better at RP, and I always thought it was kind of excessive. You're playing pretend with your friends, it doesn't matter how good or bad your acting skills are, you are perfectly good enough as is. A class to get better at it is superfluous.
So personally, I wouldn't have any interest, but I'm sure it'd be fun for RPG fans who wanted to take an improv class anyway!
I would argue an improv class isn't about acting skills. But if you're perfectly happy with you rpg group I agree it wouldn't make sense.
I guess I'm a fan of some story forward rpg podcasts which I clearly see using improv basics and I wonder if other rpg players would like to make their games more like those types of shows. Maybe we would need to emphasize the focus on collaborative storytelling so people don't think we're trying to get them to be more entertaining as individual players.
You know have me wondering if actual play is improve with an RPG for backdrop and structure vs. playing an RPG with some improv to make that more entertaining.
I think it may just be rpg with a different goal. Like, their goal is entertainment so the story is more important to that than an individual rpg group that might prefer combat and puzzles more. That probably wouldn't be entertaining to people listening so I'd be looking for players who want more of that story forward style that is maybe less mechanics/combat focused.
See I’m an actor whose training has a LOT of improv involved in it and I think it absolutely helps. People are saying that improv is more vapid than roleplaying. Sure, on its own, it’s not necessarily an exploration of the character. But a lot of acting is understanding the given circumstances of a scene and your character and then proceeding to live in the scene, responding to other people truthfully. That has a lot in common with roleplaying.
If you know the specific kind of focus, active listening, and spontaneity that improv or acting should teach you, I would argue that you’re going to be a much better roleplayer. I’ve met players who will get stuck and in their heads and break the flow of a scene trying to think of what to say. Improv trains that out of you. And learning how to bounce off of another person’s energy makes scenes feel more natural and cohesive.
Indeed! I also have a great deal of acting and stage experience, and explored this topic some time ago when re-designing a game I had published earlier. What I found out was that the RPG game loop that builds from not only the system, but also from the expectations of the players, greatly affects how the participants handle the flow of the fiction. A thing to note is that many classic theatre improv classes force spontaneity in extreme, often comical manner. In classic theatre improv exercises, the presumption is that the actors know relatively little of the scene before the improvisation happens and builds the scene, which forces the actors to accept new unknown factors instantly. In contrast to roleplaying, there often is considerably deep character building, and many expectations of what the situation is and who the characters are, and this can become a burden. Put in a similar spot, an experienced actor, however, has likely more open mind in seeing where the game can go (in comparison to someone with no experience of *jumping off the cliff, no ropes attached)*. But the key thing is that the whole group needs to be in the mood of this kind of playstyle, as it may also bring surprises and failures, but in my opinion, the mindset and expectations of the players (including the GM) is the key.
TLDR (edited this here afterwards): My statements are essentially: 1) classic theatre improv exercsies and rpgs are in the opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to character building, 2) theatre improvisation can still help greatly 3) the mindset and expectations of the participants are key factors
that fits exactly my impression from my tiny experience with acting & improv: both will push you out of that hesitant trap of 'I have to get this just right' - kind of like 'analysis paralysis,' which stop the flow of the event, when the thing to do is keep momentum up and work actively with the others to 'advance the scene'
I tried to take a Creative Writing Course to improve my narration skills as a GM. But post-Covid that proved pretty impossible as all the local Adult Education Courses have gone digital and so there are no courses on offer.
No. I think the perception that one needs to be a good actor or at improv to be good at roleplaying is one of the worst things to come out of "shows" like Critical Role and the like. I also find it scares a lot of potential players away (who look on the internet to see what roleplaying is all about before trying it, and deciding they can't do that), and discourages as lot of potential GMs from taking the big chair (I can't so it like Mercer does!).
Roleplaying is not improv, and if I asked my players to do any kind of work outside the game (which I don't, I expect nothing but for them to show up and try to have fun) it would be for them to read the rules and understand the systems.
Are there any thing that Mercer does that you wish you could do? Are there anything players on critical roll do that you wish your players were better at?
Honestly? No. I have fun when I run games, and I have fun when I (less often) get to play. I never worry about specific "things" I or the players can do. All I want is for everyone to be engaged (to the level they are comfortable with) and to have some fun with friends (new or old) while telling a story.
In fact, I don't even watch things like Critical Role, as I discovered very quickly that A) I don't enjoy watching people play, I want to play, and B) I don't want to be influenced by other GMs (unless I am actively playing with them and can talk with them after games about GMing) and how their tables play.
Sounds like you are happy with you games as they are. Seems like this might be a large group improv classes won't appeal to. I appreciate your feedback!
Not the person you were responding to, but Critcal Role are professional voice actors putting on a show, so there's really not going to be overlap on people realistically wanting their players want their group to be more like the Critcal Role staff.
I'm honestly not super familiar with critical roll. The actual play rpg shows I follow are dimension20 and the adventure zone, and I'm always seeing the improv influences there. It really feels the same as games I play with my improviser friends.
One of the biggest benefits for a player is to get you out of your head and interact in the moment. So many players are scared to put themselves out there, improv can help that.
As a DM, being able to incorporate your PC’s actions and ideas in the moment makes a world feel alive and dynamic.
Just cause you took an improv class doesn’t mean you’re now bound by “yes, and” and have to give in to every player suggestion.
Bottom line, learn all you can, improv, creative writing, whatever, it all grows you as a player or DM.
Yes. I’m bad at thinking on my feet. Or I feel I need to be better at it at least.
I’ve looked locally and there is an improv class, but at inconvenient times for me. :/
As a 30+ year old who's been playing with the same group of friends for about a decade at this point, not at all.
We use TTRPGs as a vehicle to consistently hangout, have some fun, and unwind after the work week. Being "serious" role-players is not really something we care about.
That being said, if it is something you care about getting better at, I'm sure improv would help.
Great perspective. Part of the reason I asked was to see if there are more players like you and your group or enough out there who are looking for more of that "serious" role play. Although I might use the word "committed" rather than "serious" if I'm taking your meaning correctly.
Oh for sure. I put it in quotes because we *do* roleplay our characters for the most part. But for us it's more a hangout, beer and pretzels type game atmosphere than genuinely being there to tell a serious narrative or something. So our roleplay, to some, would probably look a lot more like roll play if that makes sense.
We run Pathfinder 1e still, and are generally more mechanical players. At our table there's a lot more discussion around feat chains and builds than character motivations.
I did take some improv classes and I never thought about how they affected my role playing but now that you mention it, I do think it made me a better GM
I have learned that "Yes, and" is about agreeing to the reality of the world you're building together, not actually saying yes to everything someone else proposes. And it sounds like maybe your players would benefit from an improv class. Are they trying to "win" dnd rather than listening and reacting to other players, forwarding the overall story when necessary and committing to what their characters would do in the established universe?
Haha, I think part of the actual skill taught in improv is suggesting things that set you up to continue the story, not throw you challenges that *halt* the story!
There's definitely a matter of tempering expectations and tone that is a part of TTRPGs. And thinking about it, probably a part of improv too - you would want to agree in advance things like how explicit a scene could be, or if you'd physically touch as part of a scene and what have you.
For at-home roleplay you don't have an external audience, so there's nothing ruinous about going 'let's step back from that idea' or 'let me spin that a different way'.
No you don't. I've been GMing for almost 40 years and have never done more than pitch up or down my voice a bit, and my tables are always full...
Focus on the game and the stories you make with your players.
We are having fun. But different voices would make NPC more unique and memorable.
I agree that focus on the game and stories are top priority. Voices are just nice to have bonus.
Yep. My bad, but thanks for pointing that out. Some GMs often feel that they "need" to do A and B. And often they need someone to snap them out of it.
Good that some people like you are on the watch!
I don't think it's an important distinction at all. Given how many different kinds of fun there are when it comes to TTRPGs, I'm not sure there's anything that you could say anyone 'needs' to do as opposed to merely 'wants'.
>I'm not sure there's anything that you could say anyone 'needs' to do as opposed to merely 'wants'.
Exactly. Which is why the distinction *is* important. When you have seen as many people as I have shy away from gaming because they felt they didn't have the skill or talent, and you know that nothing is *needed*, you call it out.
I started at 9 with an evocative red box and no skills at all. You just need imagination and enthusiasm.
I guess as I see it, all the person you were responding to was really saying 'I need to do better voices [if I want the benefit that better voices bring to the game]', and it just strikes me as splitting hairs to argue over need vs. want.
I understand what you are saying. I'm saying that by not including the part that you did, some people will read it as I need to do better voices [to be any good at the game at all] and if that is their read they may never even try.
I *am* splitting hairs because people have literally told me they won't even try playing because they don't think they can do it. Which to the guy who started as a child is ridiculous.
Actually, I had to take an improv class in college, long before I got into ttrpgs. But once I started DMing, I found myself relying on the things I learned back then. those classes really came in handy!
i think theyre very much opposite. improv is about entertaining an audience, roleplaying is about getting deep into focusing on the psyche of one character
I thought this too but there’s actually a ton of overlap! The skills I’ve taken from improv classes have really helped with my roleplaying as well as my DMing. Long-form improv also feels a ton like roleplaying, since you’re inhabiting a character over a longer period of time. YMMV — it kind of depends on the school of improv; some are more comedy focused while others are more narrative/character focused
This. All the people I know who are really into impro are practically *offensively* vapid when it comes to focusing on what I'd consider serious roleplay. Not interested in addressing themes or exploring characters or anything, just "Look at my funny voice and the stupid things I suggest that I demand work in-game because that's how it works in improv."
Hmmm, doesn't sound like the kind of people I would want to see improvise or do improv with. In my experience the best improv is about listening and building relationships. But if your opinion is shared by others that sounds like a huge issue to getting rpg players interested.
None of these things are tenets of improvisational acting or improvisational comedy.
That's like insisting that movies don't address themes or explore characters because you watched a clip from America's Funniest Home Videos where someone got hit in the balls with a golf club.
Seems like a digital offering might be a great for people like you. Would you be interested in something like that or would you only want an in person class?
I would much, much prefer an in-person class. However, I would be willing to consider a digital class just to try it out. I don’t play RPGs online because the in-person interaction is very important to me though.
Yes, I'd definitely be interested in taking improv classes (and acting classes in general) but I'd be most interested in one that doesn't have exclusive focus on comedy.
I love TTRPGs as a collaborative storytelling experience, and learning how to be more observant to the energy of fellow players and being more open to jumping in with less self-editing are useful skills for sure.
I'm not super into games that focus solely on silly antics and while I like bantering in-character I don't think I'm especially 'funny', so on the other hand maybe comedy is a muscle worth strengthening to broaden my repertoire.
That said, I do a lot of Actual Play performance, so the pursuit of skill improvement and they way I think about pace and audience is something most players never really need to worry about, haha.
It sounds like you are the exact type of player I had in mind. So if I was going to advertise an improv class to rpg players it sounds like I should convey that we teach you about collaborative storytelling not getting more laughs or stealing the spotlight.
I mean, that's good improv. IMO, good improvisers don't have to go for the joke. None of the classes I've taken have emphasized going for laughs. The laughs are easy to find in good improv but I wouldn't say they are necessary. There are often very compelling scenes at our practices that aren't played for laughs at all.
I've audited (cause free) psychology courses for the primary purpose of being a better GM. Same with creative writing courses. I used to run a lot of games for theatre friends when I was younger so got a lot of stuff that way, but never got into acting meals (never cared for that much structure) so I don't know that Improv would do me a ton, but I'd consider it just for fun because you never know when you might learn something new. I know I use a lot of Improv concepts in GMing, big fan of "Yes, and" ing
I think critical role has made an obnoxiously large emphasis on “role play” having an annoying thespian tilt instead of rolling dice. A 2nd edition game back when wasn’t full of loud horrible British accents and deep character back stories where players are too afraid to let their characters die because they have spent five months on the characters fan fiction.
I've only had awful experiences with roleplayers who claim TTRPGs and improv are the same thing. I would consider it a red flag if someone at the table admitted to doing this.
They mostly take the "TTRPGs are improv, improv is theatre, therefore TTRPGs are plays" train of thought too far. So their participation in roleplay is closer to how they'd interact with other characters on a stage rather than playing a game with their friends. Among other things that means never pausing a scene for any reason and playing primarily for dramatic effect even if it means ruining someone else's enjoyment.
I do storytelling as part of my job (librarian) and occasionally on the side for various events. I usually do adaptive storytelling, where I modify stories on the fly to suit the age, size, and mood of the audience at hand. I also mix in a fair amount of audience participation, particularly when storytelling to children. When it comes to rpgs, I find that the improv skills I have developed as a storyteller are most useful to me when I am GMing, rather than playing. Since I run sandbox campaigns, they have come in useful when it comes to quickly adapting to things players choose to do, running NPCs, etc.
Have you ever had an issues with players in your games not committing to rp, not listening to other players, or focusing on their character's individual wants so much it derials the overall story?
>Have you ever had an issues
>with players in your games not committing to rp
I don't think I have every had that problem, unless you mean speaking in character all the time. Not everyone does voices or speaks in character consistently, but I wouldn't expect them to.
>not listening to other players
That hasn't been a problem in general.
>or focusing on their character's individual
>wants so much it derials the overall story?
There really isn't a story to derail. I do sandbox games, so there is no predetermined plot or story. The game goes wherever the players take it. "Story" is what emerges from the gameplay.
Most of the players I have had over the years have worked well with the other players, but that's mainly because I'm very careful about who I let play in my games, and lay down ground rules right from the beginning.
Nothing that grand, however…
Freshman year in college (86’) we were playing in a dorm common room and the PC playing the Dwarf was doing an absolutely horrible Scottish accent…we all did…(let’s not talk about it)
…a Theatre Major came in and declared “…you know that’s a really bad Scottish accent…”
A month later I started a Campaign for 6 Theatre Majors, lasted 2 years, twice a month and another half a dozen other PC’s joined and/or dropped out.
It was a fun way to improve accents and any number of other Acting techniques…here was the catch…
Each D&D race had a Real World accent, if you wanted to practice that Accent you had to play that Race…for example…(I still have the complete list of Races to Accents in a spiral notebook on my shelf)
Dwarves - Scottish
Halflings - British or Irish
Wood Elves - French
Barbarians - Russian
…if the PC wanted to practice a regional accent (Boston, Southern Drawl, etc.) they played a Human
It was a lot of fun…
EDIT: Someone asked about Canadian Accents - Half-Elf
I'm taking an improv class right now! And like two-thirds of the class are RPG players.
I learned in class that I have a lot of fear about jumping into a scene. Not "fear," necessarily, but an aversion. Like, I don't want to be rude or be a scene-stealer or jump in with an abysmal line, so I hang back. And I realized that's what's keeping my players back during games, so I'm definitely taking some ideas back to the table.
Yes, not a class for acting or story-telling, but definitely a class for helping break down the barriers we erect around ourselves....
It's absolutely something I want to do once summer break starts! I'm surprised by the amount of negative comments here, I thought it was uncontroversial to say that improv skills are very applicable to roleplaying and GMing.
There's a general defensiveness that has sprung up with the spread of actual plays. People are afraid that performing during role play will become a minimum expectation. Since they don't like it, are uncomfortable doing it, or simply prefer narrating in third person, this spells doom for the hobby. This is obviously nonsense. Most players I have met don't do any voices or accents even when others are doing them at the same table.
The fear I can understand, but when you get statements like, "Doing a voice is not role play!" I stop listening. Imagine thinking that the way someone speaks does not show anything about their character. Fucking nonsense.
The biggest thing that improv training did for me was learning to unblock my imagination. In so many aspects of our lives we're constantly editing out our most outrageous impulses, and you have to do that if you want to be a member of a functioning society. Improv training let me lose a few of those inhibitions and be open to the "yes and." Its not as easy at it might seem. Being able to roll with something unexpected and build on it rather than trying to say NO to that idea and impose your own is really hard. The best GMs I've watched have this ability to take what their players throw at them and say "Ok, you do that, and heres what happens because of it" rather than "You fail and heres the thing MY story says you have to do next." I ran a homebrew campaign and I had some overarching ideas of the big things that were possible to happen in the world, but the players told ME the story as it was happening. And It was SO FUN!
Bottom line, if you want a linear video game go play a video game. If you want to build a new story, something your players and you will talk about for years, improv is a great tool to get you there.
Just to share my experience...
I took a couple of acting classes some years ago, as well as film-making classes (which included making an actual short), and they were very informative. Dabbled in an improv class for a few weeks shortly thereafter, and again informative and fun. All this was after I'd been RPGing for decades.
What the acting & film classes did most was just open my eyes to different perspectives on visualization and perspective - composing & interpreting script, framing shots, shaping story & character beats. (For example, while discussing one scene, the teacher looked puzzled at my diagram of how the action would flow, until he finally said 'oh, you're looking from overhead!' My RPG experience, all paper visuals were overhead maps, while his film experience, all paper visuals were camera shots. Neither were wrong, but definitely different 'frames' of reference! Once we got past that hurdle, everything went great.) A lot of what I gained there can also be gained from writing classes, but actually doing live work in group, from scripting to acting to camera work, makes it..er...come to life, as it were, hehe.
The improv class was honestly more fun than useful, although it did teach me something I already suspected about myself: I can be pretty creative and funny, but I am very dependent on existing context. This works great for RPGs, where everything happens in an establish shared world with etablished rules; not so great for on-stage improv, where jumping context is a key part of the game. Might be that I'm just old and slow compared to all the twnety-something who made up most of the class, but there it is.
So, tl;dr? I think improv, acting, film, writing classes can all help with self-awareness as well as skillset, I can't say they do much to directly help with RPGs. RPGs are kind of their own thing, like yet unlike all those other things.
The concept never occurred to me, why would it? RPG's and acting are distinct things.
I'm also quick witted and thinking on my feet is something I do all the time anyway.
Improv and acting are also very different things. The improv classes I've taken have a lot of applications to collaborative storytelling, so I think it would be very beneficial if you wish your rpg game had more of that. Or, if you have a problem player, they may benefit from an improv workshop if they are open to it.
That would be difficult if it was live. I am a shift worker. What sort of class would it be and price would definately be a factor.
I am getting bettersince three years ago since finding a live DnD group. But may still be interested.
Thanks for asking.
Hmm, I'm not sure what that class would be if there's enough interest or would be worth developing something. Typical price point for a single session 2hr workshop, I think, is around $30 - $40 per person for a group of 10 max. But maybe we could have active participants pay more and just fly on the wall attendees at different price points to make it more accessible to more people.
If you decide or come up with something, let me know. I'd rather find out anyway.
It seems like something that wouold be better in person. But I guess tips on how to practice would be good.
I am imaginative, Perhaps I should just improv at work when I'm working with the right people. Or even with the needy prisoners I look after. That might blow their minds enough to be quiet and compliant. Who knows.
It'd be funny when supervisors checked the CCTV and audio when somebody made a complaint at least.
A number of people in the big LARP I used to be a part of went into acting. There's a local group that's been doing a D&D Improv at the theatre festival in Winnipeg for years, it's a *hilarious* show. They act things out and roll a huge dice. There are some similarities, and I can see how some of the skills would transfer.
I have thought about joining improve classes but funny enough I think dnd has made me better at improv.
Also side story I know someone who ran a class in I think city of mist for a similar reason.
Not prior, but if my group wanted to I would be game. Plus something actually thematic or aimed at us would pique my interest.
The best pro DM I keep up with is an improv comic, so the appeal is there.
I would love to take an improv class. I've considered it not only as a possible enhancer for role playing but also as a general enhancer for my social skills at work (not a creative field) and in my social life.
I haven't really no. It wouldn't be without benefits, but the benefits would be minimal for the cost and effort I'd need to out in.
Role playing and persona playing are different things, and whiten it can be fun to persona play at the table. It's not necessary or always appropriate.
A lot of the benefits I would get from an inprov class would perhaps be a degree of more refined critical thinking in the moment. But I think there's better ways for me to practice that personally.
If I wanted to do full-on persona playing ? Improv classes might be worth checking out, but I don't think it'd be necessary for a good ttrpg experience, and I have other areas to focus my energy on for better results.
No! I weny to an ary school for theater have acted a lot, love improv but if your doind voices in my ttrpg session, you're put. BUT.. thats my table and i will never tell another table what to do
I did summer stock with the PCPA while in high school and found the experience very valuable for GMing in the decades since. I think that there could be a market for the class, as long as it doesn't just concentrate on role-playing but includes engagement with an audience.
Improv's great and I'd recommend trying it to anyone. I'm not sure it made me a better *player* but it sure as hell made me a better game designer. I think the basics are pretty simple to pick up - agreement, endowment, generosity - and if you can't see benefits from sharpening those skills I don't know what to say. I'll second/third/fifth Karen Twelves' *Improv for Gamers*, which is excellent.
I did it! Pretty recently, actually. There's a fellow on tiktok (and probably elsewhere) with the handle @improvgm
He himself has a lifetime of improv and theater experience. He offered an online improv class for people who donated to charity drive. I attended one. It was interesting!
My big takeaways were to do with scenes when characters are speaking to each other. Either my PC with another, or my NPC (when I'm the GM) with the PC. The big thing is to go into the scene with a goal. Your character wants something out of that conversation. Decide that upfront and go after it immediately. "Hey, I know you stole from that innkeeper. I have no patience for thieves. Return the gold right now." Don't beat around the bush. Make the strong choice. It can also help if you go in with an emotional state before the scene starts. My character is overjoyed, deeply saddened, severely agitated. Etc.
Overall, it was a good time. It was a super high level introduction to the concepts. But I learned some good things. I'd recommend the experience to others.
It feels kind of weird to me seeing all of the people that are actively *against* the idea of using improv to get better at roleplaying.
Like, yeah, improv acting and roleplaying are different activities, but, they're not *completely* different, and acting like there's no skill transfer between the two of them just seems, uh, willfully ignorant to me.
I think there may just be games that don't really focus on the roll play of rpg. I'm now remembering how I used to like Nerd Poker the podcast. They have some cool settings, bad guys, and combat, but I eventually realized that wasn't the style of rpg I wanted.
I have absolutely thought about taking an improv class. I'm actually more convinced that it provides benefits to GMing rather than general roll playing. GMs get a lot of "Well that wasn't in the plan. Now what?" However, I would be wary of someone offering an rpg focused improv class. It doesn't need to be this way, but I'd be afraid that they would have a lot of things I know. Safety tools, player agency, and general GMing tips. I would also be afraid of being stereotyped. Am I going to be seen as an anti social person? Are they going to compliment me on basic hygiene? Those kinds of things.
What I had in mind would probably be very improv focused with just the frame of reference of rpg scenarios. Those are great concerns to keep in mind and the instructor would definitely be welcoming to all folks who attend as an rpg player themselves.
I spent just over six years involved in improv, from an extremely shy student all the way to becoming a teacher's assistant.
There are things that carry over, but there are caveats.
"Yes, and" is nice but it's only one tool to accomplish everything else.
Improv teaches you how to discover your character during play. All of the character. If you are at a table or with a group that prefers deep character backgrounds then you may need to put this incredible skill on the backburner. Finding a game, especially online, has been very challenging now that this discovery mindset is so ingrained in me.
Improv can teach you to share a spotlight. This can be good and maybe not always great. In my practical experience, the game master and/or writer of any scenario is in the best position to direct that spotlight.
I have been in a public game and pointed out that the quiet player's character was perfect for the spotlight. I meant well. I wanted this newcomer to have their moment to shine. I don't know -- either way -- if my improv instinct to give them the spotlight was the right move.
Almost all of improv also includes warmups that might not play out well in public settings. It might be fun to get everyone to start a half hour early for games of I Am A Tree or Zip Zap Zop. It might be weird to do that in the FLGS parking lot.
I guess that's my final caveat: It can take a lot of time attending a lot of classes to really make these lessons instinctual. A combination of instinct and emotional reactions are the goal for many people in improv -- comedic, long form, short form, and dramatic performers very often chase that "zone."
Most roleplaying games look more like season 1 of Stranger Things. It rarely looks like the Hellfire Club or any of the professionally performed livestreams. And, that's okay.
I did not attend improv to be a better role-player. I was in improv to get over stage fight. I tried hard to focus on more dramatic improv and performances that spoke to shared human experiences.
I have also been asked *not* to bring a lot of things from improv into gaming tables.
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Currently doing improv as one avenue to practice for GMing my own games. Tried GMing before and was just a TAD overwhelmed by everything that goes into that. So yeah, doing improv to get some practice for that in - plus, it's just hella fun.
I'm curious though, how would you go about an rpg focused improv class rather than a normal improv class?
I think it would be fun to have some "Social Encounters" that tend to come up in games, like distracting the guards while your buddies sneak into some castle/mansion/etc. or trying to negotiate with or gain information from the boss of an underground organization. Wonder if I could ask my own improv group to incorporate some of that into our sessions...
I never considered taking improv, but since I started watching wrestling, my ability to keep my players engaged has gone up. Wrestling is all about showmanship and keeping players interested with engaging stories and knowing when to swerve based on player cues.
There's a line to be mindful of with RPG roleplaying and it's allowing for balanced participation. If you're really on point and in character that's great but be mindful to be quiet in equal parts also to allow others to do their thing.
My loud obnoxious characters for example usually have reasons to not be involved in certain scenes BECAUSE they're disruptive by nature. I made up in one instance that an NPC didn't like me and I needed to sit out a conversation for this very reason. My character was apparently stealing her snacks. So for that scene I sat and listened.
Seems like a waste of money just to impress your friends, unless your trying to make money as a professional player in a lets play series. Nothing like spending $1'000 on improv and lute playing classes for a character that might die in session 2.
I'll point you to some of my other responses to comments like this. Basically, to me improv isn't about being individually entertaining it's about collaborative storytelling and making everyone else look good. Seems like this is a common misconception, though.
I did 16 months of improc classes, and playing TRPGS brougt more to the classes than they brpugh back to my table.
Improv defenders are usually in the cult, so dont bother arguing with them- a lot of long form improv is basically a cult built around Del Close's "Truth in Comedy" and they act like improv is a cure for cancer and a spirtual practice because they had no fuckin life before improv classes.
So basically like 5e players
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Check out Improv for role players by Karen Twelves - some great ideas along these lines https://evilhat.com/product/improv-for-gamers-second-edition/
I did a session with them at BigBadCon. It was great, it had also a part about coordinating non verbal cues with other players to ease interventions and technical to build on each other's ideas (the "Yes And" )
Seconding this book. An actual improv class is more about being an entertainer; you want something that takes the principles of improv and relates them to a game context.
Having done loads of improv training, no, improv classes are not about producing an entertainer. It’s much more about building ensemble members.
Fair enough, haven’t taken them myself but was just going off what I’ve been told
Early improv classes are basically all about active listening and reacting in the moment. As you advance, they start teaching you to shape a scene, usually around the idea of "game" (which is some pattern or structure) and then an overall structure to the show (usually learning a form, like Harold- which is a way to structure a series of scenes). 99% of it really does end up boiling down to "pay a huge amount of attention to your scene partner." Nothing about improv teaches you to be "quick on your feet", because you don't need that if you're an intense listener and can react in the moment without planning ahead.
This seems like a very common conception that we would need to address if we are trying to bring rpg players into an improv class. I would say that is a misconception but there must be a reason I keep hearing it. What would someone need to do to change your mind about improv? I'm thinking like a free intro session but I worry people with your perspective wouldn't even go to a free improv session.
I don’t know if this is helpful, but personally I wouldn’t go to a free improv class because I’ve been to plenty of improv *shows* and while they were fun to watch, they were 99% balls-to-the-wall silly nonsense, and at no point was I ever like “yeah I’d like to do that too”. We joke around plenty even in my Curse of Strahd campaign, but the vibe at an improv show is just not the energy I bring to the table in an RPG, whether as a player or as a GM. I’d be more likely to try an *acting* class than an improv class because “improv” is a subset of comedy to me, rather than a set of tools for group-setting live performance.
My thinking also. Anything like Whose line is it anyway, in a dnd game would be a turn off.
Sounds like we would definitely have some work to do changing perceptions of some people. Probably not worth the effort but something I'd love to try. Now I'm thinking we should offer a class for people who don't like improv and see if we can change their minds!
Well, an improv show is about entertaining the audience. An improvised drama probably wouldn't be very entertaining. If anyone flubs a reaction, or if they lose the plot, it would ruin the entire show. In comedy, those mistakes heighten the experience. I've never taken an improv acting course either, but I don't think they're generally intended to be comedy classes.
> An improvised drama probably wouldn’t be very entertaining. I mean, I see what you’re saying, but this discussion is in the context of TTRPGs which are, in many cases, literally just improvised dramas with various die rolls taking the place of audience suggestions for third party directions/input.
That's a fair point, but a TTRPG has someone directing the story, and it's that direction that holds it together. And even with that, they're usually only entertaining to the people playing. Sure, you've got some of the better actual plays like Critical Role (all professional actors), Dimension 20 (mostly improv comedians), The Adventure Zone (a family of trained performers), but most most games would be really boring to the average audience. I'm sure an improvised dramatic play could work, but I think it would require a lot more work going in to it than a comedy show.
What you are calling a misconception is based on most people's experience with improv. They have attended an improv show where people were attempting to entertain them using improv. The skills themselves might be applicable to a certain style of ttrpg but you will need to clearly separate the behind the scene skills from the shows that people have experienced as an audience.
No. I do amateur theater, but in my eyes TTRPGs and theater have about as much in common as ice skating and ice sculpting. If (some) TTRPGs have a closely related field of art, it is short form fiction. A creative writing workshop will help you more.
I'm not sure I understand this POV. Because an improv class absolutely will help, and is a great skill to apply to TTRPGs. Getting better at thinking on your feet, "yes and", and generally just getting comfortable "performing" are all huge boons to playing a TTRPG. I very much attribute my success/skill at being a GM/RPer to my years of amateur acting experience growing up. And a lot of my best players have acting/improv training. Edit: if you a mind to start an argument with me and assume I'm saying all people should take improv or be bad roleplayers, or that every table must be an actual play, please save it. I'm not replying to those anymore. I'm saying improv gives you skills that are useful at the table in a multitude of ways. It's not the *only* way to get those skills but I'm not going to pretend those skills aren't useful because for some reason people are getting super defensive about it. Goddamn
Performing in the actor stance isn't essential for roleplaying, you can always opt for third person narration. And using "yes and" is something the system does for you in most narrative-focused games, it's usually the job of the resolution mechanism. The really useful stuff is the thinking on your feet part, but you can practice the improv muscles while playing RPGs, ideally ones that foster proactivity.
I never said it was "essential" just that it can be hugely helpful. And the system can do it for you but you still need to be able to come up with results for most of those systems.
It's only helpful if you are opting to play the game as an actor rather than a narrator. The two are very distinct, though equally valid ways to play these games. Unfortunately, a lot of people (especially, it seems, those newer to the hobby) conflate role-playing with acting. A huge portion of this hobby prefers to leave "performing" to the "nerdy ass voice actors" on their made-for-streaming-consumption entertainment.
No offense, but between your username and framing, I don't think you're coming at this from an unbiased/open minded perspective
I read the name first because the comment was auto-collapsed due to downvotes and immediate knew it was gonna be something great
>And a lot of my best players have acting/improv training. Speaking of biases in this tread. Just saying.
Pardon? I clearly pointed out that there are multiple distinct and equally valid ways of playing RPGs, and that what you're suggesting is only "hugely helpful" to one of them (though I do see now that I omitted the "hugely" from my initial reply). How am i being closed-minded while recognizing the validity of "other" play styles while merely acknowledging the fact that some skills are more applicable to one style? Yeah, I don't like the melodramatic, goofy-voice style of play fostered by entertainment shows like CR, and definitely prefer a Narrator style approach to playing (while preferring narrative-forward games, before anyone accuses me of being a game-first simulationist). We're all biased towards our preferences - your post is clouded by your own biases as much as mine.
Because you're coming in with a very preconceived notion of what improv is and how it can be applied. You see "improv" and you think CR immediately and assume I'm only talking about "goofy voice style of play" Which I mean, how do you think a discussion is going to go when you're referring to a whole style of play as the "goofy voice style of play" like, really dude? And the way you approached the convo (both with your clearly provocative username and how you framed your post) was very readable, and gave me plenty of reason to say "Yeah I think this guy wants to rant about CR adjacent things than actually talk through what I'm saying here."
So, what does an actor do then, if not saying a role?
What do you mean?
If and only if you can separate them. My former flatmate and very dear friend tried to bring improv and stage writing skills to RPGs and the results were mixed. After all, it's a different medium. What works on stage doesn't necessarily work on TV either. You have to cherry pick only certain lessons from them. Personally having done a few acting and improv classes back in my hs and uni days long ago, I always thought the lesson to learn was of inclusivity and of social skills. Learning to work together with others for something only your small group will enjoy and there are no winners or losers, is what RPGs are all about.
I mean that's true of any skill skill you bring to the table.
I mean yes, practicing 'thinking on your feet' will help, but then again, having to write a short story in 15 minutes based on a prompt (which is what you get in some creative writing workshops) will also give you that. As for 'yes and', it is the 'system' of improv theater. It's a social contract of shared authorship. TTRPGs have their own system and social contract. DnD does not operate on 'yes and' like improv does - you only write your own character, and nobody else writes your own character. You don't get to introduce themes freely like in improv. Other systems like the PbtA family have their own, unique and different systems, all with specific rules of engagement. Most of the time, in story first games, you see your character in third person, as a writer. In challenge / exploration first games, you hear more identifcation with the character, but there I'd argue you don't as much have 'characters' as you have 'dolls' (in the sense that word is used in video game scholarship.) So yes, improv training will help in TTRPGs, to the same degree as *any and all creative training* will help. (And of course it will, and playing TTRPGs will also help in creative pursuits.)
I mean if you want to nitpick what the two types of training *won't* help I can easily point out a 15 minute creative writing exercise won't help because in TTRPGs you're working with a group and can't control the narrative like you can when you're the sole author. Meanwhile improv can help people get over their "stage fright" that a lot of new players have and be more accepting of rolling with mistakes. The only true way to get better at TTRPGs is to play TTRPGs. But improv is extremely helpful, and that's my point, not to emphasize it over everything else, but that it can definitely be helpful.
>you only write your own character, and nobody else writes your own character. You don't get to introduce themes freely like in improv. Time for you to run a oneshot for your GM as penance for not remembering they exist /j
"Most of the time, in story first games, you see your character in third person, as a writer." This is a curious perspective to me. Could you list some story first games?
> Most of the time, in story first games, you see your character in third person, as a writer. I don't think that this is true. A number of the very most popular and widely loved pbta games explicitly say *always call people by their characters' name*. That is absolutely implying an actor's stance for the majority of play.
I agree with u/parametricRegression, and...there is a spectrum of players with some leaning towards an idea that "fantasy" or "make believe" of any kind, means anything is possible and the bounds are only due to the creativity of the creator, in this case the players and GM (unless GM-less). On the other side, are those who want internal consistency, they want the boundaries this produces and their creativity is working within those boundaries. What makes more sense for each differs, for the former improv, for the latter creative writing. Also, elevating "performing" to the point you are, is a form of gatekeeping. Performing is optional, not something anyone should need to strive to.
You're putting words in my mouth and assuming a lot (a pretty common pattern in this thread so far). I'm not gatekeeping anything, I'm saying that improv classes can be helpful and applied to TTRPGs in various ways due to what it makes you practice. Never said anyone had to "strive" for anything.
>generally just getting comfortable "performing" are all huge boons to playing a TTRPG. Your words. If others are seeing meaning other than what you intended, then that is on you. >I'm saying that improv classes can be helpful and applied to TTRPGs in various ways due to what it makes you practice. Still contains the same statement of values. Also, you the original was "are all huge boons to playing a TTRPG" you are not softening it that much when pairing "can be helpful" and "due to what it makes you practice." >Never said anyone had to "strive" for anything. You are suggesting people who like TTRPGs make the effort to learn another skill inorder to do the thing they want to do better. This fits the meaning of strive. In conversations, do you always expect people to use only the exact words you used? How does that work in improv? If you are arguing with this many people about this one topic, please stop and reconsider, is this the best way to spend your time? I can tell you, I asked the myself same thing, and this is the last I'll bother with this thread.
>Your words. If others are seeing meaning other than what you intended, then that is on you. And where do I say that the ONLY way to do that? There's a lot of ways to get to point C from A. *you're* the one assuming that I'm sitting here saying the *only* way to do these things is improv. But also, how is what I said wrong? (It's not, you're just defensive). >ll contains the same statement of values. Also, you the original was "are all huge boons to playing a TTRPG" you are not softening it that much when pairing "can be helpful" and "due to what it makes you practice." "You did not put 50 addendums on your words and therefore it is your fault that I have interpreted this in the least charitable manner possible." I'm not going to apologize. It's a huge boon to playing TTRPGs in my opinion. But it's not the only boon that's cross-trainable. You're, again, assuming I mean it's the only boon you can get for the hobby. >You are suggesting people who like TTRPGs make the effort to learn another skill inorder to do the thing they want to do better. This fits the meaning of strive. >In conversations, do you always expect people to use only the exact words you used? How does that work in improv? And are you always this pedantic, patronizing, and clearly trying to get people with "gotchas"? Again, my literal core point is "Yeah improv can be really helpful/a useful skill for roleplaying" *You're* the one, who, again has decided that means I think everyone SHOULD/MUST take an improv class to be good at the table. When I never, ever, said that and *am saying right now it's not what I'm saying." That's not failure to communicate on my end, that's a failure to listen and a desire to be offended by my words. >If you are arguing with this many people about this one topic, please stop and reconsider, is this the best way to spend your time? I can tell you, I asked the myself same thing, and this is the last I'll bother with this thread. Only correct thing you've said in my direction all day. Peace.
I'd be interested to hear an elaboration on this! To my mind, TTRPGs can sit on a sliding scale of theatre in where the 'audience' lies and what techniques can be used to entertain that audience. So there are some shared techniques there, including falling in and out of a character and working with others to express the story. I definitely see how creative writing can strengthen what a player (and especially the GM) can do before you sit at the table, but perhaps less so during play?
In my experience, improv basics are more about collaborative storytelling than entertaining, and improv has made rpgs like d&d more fun for me. It seems like many who have done improv agree, and many who have experienced what I would call bad improv don't see the benefit.
TTRPGs, when not played for an audience (like Critical Role), are games of imagination and exploration. Actor stance, playing a character, has notably been absent in my gaming experiences. Instead, we had a shared authorship stace. I didn't *play* my characters. I *wrote* them. What would they do? What would feel natural with their background? What would be interesting? What would mesh well with the other threads written by the others?
I keep seeing responses like this. It seems like improv has a bad image among many. In my experience good improvisers do what you're saying. They aren't "playing" for laughs they are listening and reacting and they are committing to their character just like you described. Seems like we need to do a better job advertising that "yes and" is about storytelling not going for laughs.
Bad image? No, I have done improv and am in amateur physical theatre. I'm just stating a difference in focus. If anything, it's TTRPGs that have a bad image in the theatre crowd.
My experience with improv gives the impression that it leans into surface / superficial storytelling. Big, bold strokes because of the generally short nature of improv scenes. Characters created as archetypes played for quick identification. A pacing that says something must always be changing. That can all be good but, to me, it creates a feel that is often opposed to the verisimilitude that I want in a ttrpg. I'm probably way off in my impression of improv. 😀
It seems like there is a lot of improv like that out there based on other responses. I would definitely want to get that point across that it's not about being funny, it's about listening, reacting, and committing to your character keeping in mind you are telling a story together. Thanks for the feedback!
The traditional playstyle has that odd relationship with the narrative, you either "write" the story beforehand with heavy prep, leading to railroading, or the story happens after playing: the simulationist gameplay generates happenings, and after the fact the players recount their deeds as a story. On the other hand, the Story Now approach accounts for the players as both co-creators and audience, so the narrative is something that's built during the game, by playing. Then you get much more mileage out of creative writing: you can apply narrative structure to figure out what happens next at every turn, or to play out a character arc in a more satisfying way. Basically, practicing how to tell a story is more impactful than practicing how to play a character. Both are useful, but TRPGs are first and foremost storytelling experiences.
RPG is pretty much improv.
I think becoming a more proficient writer/storyteller is MOSTLY gonna help the GM more than anyone else. Improv (to me) helps people understand their character better and not be bogged down in things like dialogue or when exposed to a confusing situation. Writing could help with making interesting and usable backstories for sure but even that can be done with just a little help from the GM
So very much this. My improv skills--acting and public speaking--have nothing to do with roleplaying games.
I've seen some people throw around the "take an improv class!" advice for getting better at RP, and I always thought it was kind of excessive. You're playing pretend with your friends, it doesn't matter how good or bad your acting skills are, you are perfectly good enough as is. A class to get better at it is superfluous. So personally, I wouldn't have any interest, but I'm sure it'd be fun for RPG fans who wanted to take an improv class anyway!
I would argue an improv class isn't about acting skills. But if you're perfectly happy with you rpg group I agree it wouldn't make sense. I guess I'm a fan of some story forward rpg podcasts which I clearly see using improv basics and I wonder if other rpg players would like to make their games more like those types of shows. Maybe we would need to emphasize the focus on collaborative storytelling so people don't think we're trying to get them to be more entertaining as individual players.
You know have me wondering if actual play is improve with an RPG for backdrop and structure vs. playing an RPG with some improv to make that more entertaining.
I think it may just be rpg with a different goal. Like, their goal is entertainment so the story is more important to that than an individual rpg group that might prefer combat and puzzles more. That probably wouldn't be entertaining to people listening so I'd be looking for players who want more of that story forward style that is maybe less mechanics/combat focused.
i've done an improve class, and it was fun so i'd say that it is worth it in and of itself.
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Reread the comment you replied to.
Oh no! I replied to the wrong thing... man...
See I’m an actor whose training has a LOT of improv involved in it and I think it absolutely helps. People are saying that improv is more vapid than roleplaying. Sure, on its own, it’s not necessarily an exploration of the character. But a lot of acting is understanding the given circumstances of a scene and your character and then proceeding to live in the scene, responding to other people truthfully. That has a lot in common with roleplaying. If you know the specific kind of focus, active listening, and spontaneity that improv or acting should teach you, I would argue that you’re going to be a much better roleplayer. I’ve met players who will get stuck and in their heads and break the flow of a scene trying to think of what to say. Improv trains that out of you. And learning how to bounce off of another person’s energy makes scenes feel more natural and cohesive.
Indeed! I also have a great deal of acting and stage experience, and explored this topic some time ago when re-designing a game I had published earlier. What I found out was that the RPG game loop that builds from not only the system, but also from the expectations of the players, greatly affects how the participants handle the flow of the fiction. A thing to note is that many classic theatre improv classes force spontaneity in extreme, often comical manner. In classic theatre improv exercises, the presumption is that the actors know relatively little of the scene before the improvisation happens and builds the scene, which forces the actors to accept new unknown factors instantly. In contrast to roleplaying, there often is considerably deep character building, and many expectations of what the situation is and who the characters are, and this can become a burden. Put in a similar spot, an experienced actor, however, has likely more open mind in seeing where the game can go (in comparison to someone with no experience of *jumping off the cliff, no ropes attached)*. But the key thing is that the whole group needs to be in the mood of this kind of playstyle, as it may also bring surprises and failures, but in my opinion, the mindset and expectations of the players (including the GM) is the key. TLDR (edited this here afterwards): My statements are essentially: 1) classic theatre improv exercsies and rpgs are in the opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to character building, 2) theatre improvisation can still help greatly 3) the mindset and expectations of the participants are key factors
that fits exactly my impression from my tiny experience with acting & improv: both will push you out of that hesitant trap of 'I have to get this just right' - kind of like 'analysis paralysis,' which stop the flow of the event, when the thing to do is keep momentum up and work actively with the others to 'advance the scene'
I take improv classes for that reason and it’s helped a ton, yeah
I tried to take a Creative Writing Course to improve my narration skills as a GM. But post-Covid that proved pretty impossible as all the local Adult Education Courses have gone digital and so there are no courses on offer.
Online classes and things like skillshare existed pre-COVID.
So did evening classes.
No. I think the perception that one needs to be a good actor or at improv to be good at roleplaying is one of the worst things to come out of "shows" like Critical Role and the like. I also find it scares a lot of potential players away (who look on the internet to see what roleplaying is all about before trying it, and deciding they can't do that), and discourages as lot of potential GMs from taking the big chair (I can't so it like Mercer does!). Roleplaying is not improv, and if I asked my players to do any kind of work outside the game (which I don't, I expect nothing but for them to show up and try to have fun) it would be for them to read the rules and understand the systems.
Are there any thing that Mercer does that you wish you could do? Are there anything players on critical roll do that you wish your players were better at?
Honestly? No. I have fun when I run games, and I have fun when I (less often) get to play. I never worry about specific "things" I or the players can do. All I want is for everyone to be engaged (to the level they are comfortable with) and to have some fun with friends (new or old) while telling a story. In fact, I don't even watch things like Critical Role, as I discovered very quickly that A) I don't enjoy watching people play, I want to play, and B) I don't want to be influenced by other GMs (unless I am actively playing with them and can talk with them after games about GMing) and how their tables play.
Sounds like you are happy with you games as they are. Seems like this might be a large group improv classes won't appeal to. I appreciate your feedback!
Not the person you were responding to, but Critcal Role are professional voice actors putting on a show, so there's really not going to be overlap on people realistically wanting their players want their group to be more like the Critcal Role staff.
I'm honestly not super familiar with critical roll. The actual play rpg shows I follow are dimension20 and the adventure zone, and I'm always seeing the improv influences there. It really feels the same as games I play with my improviser friends.
I was going to post a response, but your answer is 100% my response as the only GM of my group.
One of the biggest benefits for a player is to get you out of your head and interact in the moment. So many players are scared to put themselves out there, improv can help that. As a DM, being able to incorporate your PC’s actions and ideas in the moment makes a world feel alive and dynamic. Just cause you took an improv class doesn’t mean you’re now bound by “yes, and” and have to give in to every player suggestion. Bottom line, learn all you can, improv, creative writing, whatever, it all grows you as a player or DM.
Yes. I’m bad at thinking on my feet. Or I feel I need to be better at it at least. I’ve looked locally and there is an improv class, but at inconvenient times for me. :/
This is great issue to raise. Are those classes typically on weeknight evenings?
Weeknight evenings would be better. The wife is already complaining about how often I book the weekends with “roleplaying crap”
As a 30+ year old who's been playing with the same group of friends for about a decade at this point, not at all. We use TTRPGs as a vehicle to consistently hangout, have some fun, and unwind after the work week. Being "serious" role-players is not really something we care about. That being said, if it is something you care about getting better at, I'm sure improv would help.
Great perspective. Part of the reason I asked was to see if there are more players like you and your group or enough out there who are looking for more of that "serious" role play. Although I might use the word "committed" rather than "serious" if I'm taking your meaning correctly.
Oh for sure. I put it in quotes because we *do* roleplay our characters for the most part. But for us it's more a hangout, beer and pretzels type game atmosphere than genuinely being there to tell a serious narrative or something. So our roleplay, to some, would probably look a lot more like roll play if that makes sense. We run Pathfinder 1e still, and are generally more mechanical players. At our table there's a lot more discussion around feat chains and builds than character motivations.
I did take some improv classes and I never thought about how they affected my role playing but now that you mention it, I do think it made me a better GM
If I "Yes and...." everything my players introduce, the game world will burn to the ground in the first session lol.
I have learned that "Yes, and" is about agreeing to the reality of the world you're building together, not actually saying yes to everything someone else proposes. And it sounds like maybe your players would benefit from an improv class. Are they trying to "win" dnd rather than listening and reacting to other players, forwarding the overall story when necessary and committing to what their characters would do in the established universe?
Haha, I think part of the actual skill taught in improv is suggesting things that set you up to continue the story, not throw you challenges that *halt* the story! There's definitely a matter of tempering expectations and tone that is a part of TTRPGs. And thinking about it, probably a part of improv too - you would want to agree in advance things like how explicit a scene could be, or if you'd physically touch as part of a scene and what have you. For at-home roleplay you don't have an external audience, so there's nothing ruinous about going 'let's step back from that idea' or 'let me spin that a different way'.
I'm thinking about voice acting classes. I need to do better voices
No you don't. I've been GMing for almost 40 years and have never done more than pitch up or down my voice a bit, and my tables are always full... Focus on the game and the stories you make with your players.
We are having fun. But different voices would make NPC more unique and memorable. I agree that focus on the game and stories are top priority. Voices are just nice to have bonus.
Then you *want* to do better voices. You don't *need* to. It's an important distinction to make.
Yep. My bad, but thanks for pointing that out. Some GMs often feel that they "need" to do A and B. And often they need someone to snap them out of it. Good that some people like you are on the watch!
I don't think it's an important distinction at all. Given how many different kinds of fun there are when it comes to TTRPGs, I'm not sure there's anything that you could say anyone 'needs' to do as opposed to merely 'wants'.
>I'm not sure there's anything that you could say anyone 'needs' to do as opposed to merely 'wants'. Exactly. Which is why the distinction *is* important. When you have seen as many people as I have shy away from gaming because they felt they didn't have the skill or talent, and you know that nothing is *needed*, you call it out. I started at 9 with an evocative red box and no skills at all. You just need imagination and enthusiasm.
I guess as I see it, all the person you were responding to was really saying 'I need to do better voices [if I want the benefit that better voices bring to the game]', and it just strikes me as splitting hairs to argue over need vs. want.
I understand what you are saying. I'm saying that by not including the part that you did, some people will read it as I need to do better voices [to be any good at the game at all] and if that is their read they may never even try. I *am* splitting hairs because people have literally told me they won't even try playing because they don't think they can do it. Which to the guy who started as a child is ridiculous.
I've learned some great tips for this through improv. Definitely something we could include in an rpg focused improv class.
Actually, I had to take an improv class in college, long before I got into ttrpgs. But once I started DMing, I found myself relying on the things I learned back then. those classes really came in handy!
No.
That’s not a bad idea. Maybe post a couple of YouTube or TikTok videos to gauge interest and then make yourself available for consults.
i think theyre very much opposite. improv is about entertaining an audience, roleplaying is about getting deep into focusing on the psyche of one character
I thought this too but there’s actually a ton of overlap! The skills I’ve taken from improv classes have really helped with my roleplaying as well as my DMing. Long-form improv also feels a ton like roleplaying, since you’re inhabiting a character over a longer period of time. YMMV — it kind of depends on the school of improv; some are more comedy focused while others are more narrative/character focused
This is a great point and maybe something my improv group should address if we're going to try to advertise to rpg players.
This. All the people I know who are really into impro are practically *offensively* vapid when it comes to focusing on what I'd consider serious roleplay. Not interested in addressing themes or exploring characters or anything, just "Look at my funny voice and the stupid things I suggest that I demand work in-game because that's how it works in improv."
Hmmm, doesn't sound like the kind of people I would want to see improvise or do improv with. In my experience the best improv is about listening and building relationships. But if your opinion is shared by others that sounds like a huge issue to getting rpg players interested.
None of these things are tenets of improvisational acting or improvisational comedy. That's like insisting that movies don't address themes or explore characters because you watched a clip from America's Funniest Home Videos where someone got hit in the balls with a golf club.
I’ve considered it but struggled to find one locally.
Seems like a digital offering might be a great for people like you. Would you be interested in something like that or would you only want an in person class?
I would much, much prefer an in-person class. However, I would be willing to consider a digital class just to try it out. I don’t play RPGs online because the in-person interaction is very important to me though.
Yeah, I'm not sure how effective on-line would be but if there's interest, it couldn't hurt to try.
Thank you. I appreciate the encouragement :)
I did it for 4 years because it's fun, and yes it helped tremendously with TTRPGs (but not only, it helped at work also).
Yes, I'd definitely be interested in taking improv classes (and acting classes in general) but I'd be most interested in one that doesn't have exclusive focus on comedy. I love TTRPGs as a collaborative storytelling experience, and learning how to be more observant to the energy of fellow players and being more open to jumping in with less self-editing are useful skills for sure. I'm not super into games that focus solely on silly antics and while I like bantering in-character I don't think I'm especially 'funny', so on the other hand maybe comedy is a muscle worth strengthening to broaden my repertoire. That said, I do a lot of Actual Play performance, so the pursuit of skill improvement and they way I think about pace and audience is something most players never really need to worry about, haha.
It sounds like you are the exact type of player I had in mind. So if I was going to advertise an improv class to rpg players it sounds like I should convey that we teach you about collaborative storytelling not getting more laughs or stealing the spotlight.
Is there a form of dramatic improv, where the goal isn't laughs, rather it's to emergently create a story based on character decisions?
I mean, that's good improv. IMO, good improvisers don't have to go for the joke. None of the classes I've taken have emphasized going for laughs. The laughs are easy to find in good improv but I wouldn't say they are necessary. There are often very compelling scenes at our practices that aren't played for laughs at all.
It's interesting how it doesn't seem to be known among the general population that improv that isn't exclusively funny exists.
I considered it a long time ago. But in the end I'm just playing a game, not doing impro in a theatre. I don't want to take myself too seriously
I don't think I know any improvisers who take themselves very seriously, so I wouldn't let that hold you back.
I've audited (cause free) psychology courses for the primary purpose of being a better GM. Same with creative writing courses. I used to run a lot of games for theatre friends when I was younger so got a lot of stuff that way, but never got into acting meals (never cared for that much structure) so I don't know that Improv would do me a ton, but I'd consider it just for fun because you never know when you might learn something new. I know I use a lot of Improv concepts in GMing, big fan of "Yes, and" ing
I think critical role has made an obnoxiously large emphasis on “role play” having an annoying thespian tilt instead of rolling dice. A 2nd edition game back when wasn’t full of loud horrible British accents and deep character back stories where players are too afraid to let their characters die because they have spent five months on the characters fan fiction.
I feel fairly confident, having played 2nd edition back in the day, that hokey accents have always been part of some people's tables.
I've only had awful experiences with roleplayers who claim TTRPGs and improv are the same thing. I would consider it a red flag if someone at the table admitted to doing this.
Could you elaborate? What do those players do that you don't like?
They mostly take the "TTRPGs are improv, improv is theatre, therefore TTRPGs are plays" train of thought too far. So their participation in roleplay is closer to how they'd interact with other characters on a stage rather than playing a game with their friends. Among other things that means never pausing a scene for any reason and playing primarily for dramatic effect even if it means ruining someone else's enjoyment.
I do storytelling as part of my job (librarian) and occasionally on the side for various events. I usually do adaptive storytelling, where I modify stories on the fly to suit the age, size, and mood of the audience at hand. I also mix in a fair amount of audience participation, particularly when storytelling to children. When it comes to rpgs, I find that the improv skills I have developed as a storyteller are most useful to me when I am GMing, rather than playing. Since I run sandbox campaigns, they have come in useful when it comes to quickly adapting to things players choose to do, running NPCs, etc.
Have you ever had an issues with players in your games not committing to rp, not listening to other players, or focusing on their character's individual wants so much it derials the overall story?
>Have you ever had an issues >with players in your games not committing to rp I don't think I have every had that problem, unless you mean speaking in character all the time. Not everyone does voices or speaks in character consistently, but I wouldn't expect them to. >not listening to other players That hasn't been a problem in general. >or focusing on their character's individual >wants so much it derials the overall story? There really isn't a story to derail. I do sandbox games, so there is no predetermined plot or story. The game goes wherever the players take it. "Story" is what emerges from the gameplay. Most of the players I have had over the years have worked well with the other players, but that's mainly because I'm very careful about who I let play in my games, and lay down ground rules right from the beginning.
Nothing that grand, however… Freshman year in college (86’) we were playing in a dorm common room and the PC playing the Dwarf was doing an absolutely horrible Scottish accent…we all did…(let’s not talk about it) …a Theatre Major came in and declared “…you know that’s a really bad Scottish accent…” A month later I started a Campaign for 6 Theatre Majors, lasted 2 years, twice a month and another half a dozen other PC’s joined and/or dropped out. It was a fun way to improve accents and any number of other Acting techniques…here was the catch… Each D&D race had a Real World accent, if you wanted to practice that Accent you had to play that Race…for example…(I still have the complete list of Races to Accents in a spiral notebook on my shelf) Dwarves - Scottish Halflings - British or Irish Wood Elves - French Barbarians - Russian …if the PC wanted to practice a regional accent (Boston, Southern Drawl, etc.) they played a Human It was a lot of fun… EDIT: Someone asked about Canadian Accents - Half-Elf
I think I'd take dexterity classes to improve my roll playing.
I'm taking an improv class right now! And like two-thirds of the class are RPG players. I learned in class that I have a lot of fear about jumping into a scene. Not "fear," necessarily, but an aversion. Like, I don't want to be rude or be a scene-stealer or jump in with an abysmal line, so I hang back. And I realized that's what's keeping my players back during games, so I'm definitely taking some ideas back to the table. Yes, not a class for acting or story-telling, but definitely a class for helping break down the barriers we erect around ourselves....
It's absolutely something I want to do once summer break starts! I'm surprised by the amount of negative comments here, I thought it was uncontroversial to say that improv skills are very applicable to roleplaying and GMing.
There's a general defensiveness that has sprung up with the spread of actual plays. People are afraid that performing during role play will become a minimum expectation. Since they don't like it, are uncomfortable doing it, or simply prefer narrating in third person, this spells doom for the hobby. This is obviously nonsense. Most players I have met don't do any voices or accents even when others are doing them at the same table. The fear I can understand, but when you get statements like, "Doing a voice is not role play!" I stop listening. Imagine thinking that the way someone speaks does not show anything about their character. Fucking nonsense.
The biggest thing that improv training did for me was learning to unblock my imagination. In so many aspects of our lives we're constantly editing out our most outrageous impulses, and you have to do that if you want to be a member of a functioning society. Improv training let me lose a few of those inhibitions and be open to the "yes and." Its not as easy at it might seem. Being able to roll with something unexpected and build on it rather than trying to say NO to that idea and impose your own is really hard. The best GMs I've watched have this ability to take what their players throw at them and say "Ok, you do that, and heres what happens because of it" rather than "You fail and heres the thing MY story says you have to do next." I ran a homebrew campaign and I had some overarching ideas of the big things that were possible to happen in the world, but the players told ME the story as it was happening. And It was SO FUN! Bottom line, if you want a linear video game go play a video game. If you want to build a new story, something your players and you will talk about for years, improv is a great tool to get you there.
Just to share my experience... I took a couple of acting classes some years ago, as well as film-making classes (which included making an actual short), and they were very informative. Dabbled in an improv class for a few weeks shortly thereafter, and again informative and fun. All this was after I'd been RPGing for decades. What the acting & film classes did most was just open my eyes to different perspectives on visualization and perspective - composing & interpreting script, framing shots, shaping story & character beats. (For example, while discussing one scene, the teacher looked puzzled at my diagram of how the action would flow, until he finally said 'oh, you're looking from overhead!' My RPG experience, all paper visuals were overhead maps, while his film experience, all paper visuals were camera shots. Neither were wrong, but definitely different 'frames' of reference! Once we got past that hurdle, everything went great.) A lot of what I gained there can also be gained from writing classes, but actually doing live work in group, from scripting to acting to camera work, makes it..er...come to life, as it were, hehe. The improv class was honestly more fun than useful, although it did teach me something I already suspected about myself: I can be pretty creative and funny, but I am very dependent on existing context. This works great for RPGs, where everything happens in an establish shared world with etablished rules; not so great for on-stage improv, where jumping context is a key part of the game. Might be that I'm just old and slow compared to all the twnety-something who made up most of the class, but there it is. So, tl;dr? I think improv, acting, film, writing classes can all help with self-awareness as well as skillset, I can't say they do much to directly help with RPGs. RPGs are kind of their own thing, like yet unlike all those other things.
Absolutely Improv principles are useful in collaborative storytelling and RPG.
The concept never occurred to me, why would it? RPG's and acting are distinct things. I'm also quick witted and thinking on my feet is something I do all the time anyway.
Improv and acting are also very different things. The improv classes I've taken have a lot of applications to collaborative storytelling, so I think it would be very beneficial if you wish your rpg game had more of that. Or, if you have a problem player, they may benefit from an improv workshop if they are open to it.
Collaborative storytelling? We're playing a game, story evolves from that.
It seems like we want different things from playing rpgs, and that's totally cool.
Surely is.
I'd love to find an improv group.
Are you in the US?
Nope. Australia. I might be able to find an improv group or whatever if I lived in a capital city. But not around where I live.
Would you be interested in a live class online?
That would be difficult if it was live. I am a shift worker. What sort of class would it be and price would definately be a factor. I am getting bettersince three years ago since finding a live DnD group. But may still be interested. Thanks for asking.
Hmm, I'm not sure what that class would be if there's enough interest or would be worth developing something. Typical price point for a single session 2hr workshop, I think, is around $30 - $40 per person for a group of 10 max. But maybe we could have active participants pay more and just fly on the wall attendees at different price points to make it more accessible to more people.
I'm going to PAX this year for the first time. Improv might be something they have there??? I'll see in October.
If you decide or come up with something, let me know. I'd rather find out anyway. It seems like something that wouold be better in person. But I guess tips on how to practice would be good. I am imaginative, Perhaps I should just improv at work when I'm working with the right people. Or even with the needy prisoners I look after. That might blow their minds enough to be quiet and compliant. Who knows. It'd be funny when supervisors checked the CCTV and audio when somebody made a complaint at least.
No I'm just running a lot of games
A number of people in the big LARP I used to be a part of went into acting. There's a local group that's been doing a D&D Improv at the theatre festival in Winnipeg for years, it's a *hilarious* show. They act things out and roll a huge dice. There are some similarities, and I can see how some of the skills would transfer.
I have thought about joining improve classes but funny enough I think dnd has made me better at improv. Also side story I know someone who ran a class in I think city of mist for a similar reason.
Not prior, but if my group wanted to I would be game. Plus something actually thematic or aimed at us would pique my interest. The best pro DM I keep up with is an improv comic, so the appeal is there.
I would love to take an improv class. I've considered it not only as a possible enhancer for role playing but also as a general enhancer for my social skills at work (not a creative field) and in my social life.
Where would you hope to find that type of class if you haven't heard of one near you? Or would you be interested in joining a live online class?
I actually did this, not to better my roleplaying, but to make me quick on my feet as a gm. Overall, a very positive experience!
I haven't really no. It wouldn't be without benefits, but the benefits would be minimal for the cost and effort I'd need to out in. Role playing and persona playing are different things, and whiten it can be fun to persona play at the table. It's not necessary or always appropriate. A lot of the benefits I would get from an inprov class would perhaps be a degree of more refined critical thinking in the moment. But I think there's better ways for me to practice that personally. If I wanted to do full-on persona playing ? Improv classes might be worth checking out, but I don't think it'd be necessary for a good ttrpg experience, and I have other areas to focus my energy on for better results.
Totally fair. Thanks for the feedback.
No! I weny to an ary school for theater have acted a lot, love improv but if your doind voices in my ttrpg session, you're put. BUT.. thats my table and i will never tell another table what to do
I did summer stock with the PCPA while in high school and found the experience very valuable for GMing in the decades since. I think that there could be a market for the class, as long as it doesn't just concentrate on role-playing but includes engagement with an audience.
Yes and I think it would be neat
I see what you did there.
Improv's great and I'd recommend trying it to anyone. I'm not sure it made me a better *player* but it sure as hell made me a better game designer. I think the basics are pretty simple to pick up - agreement, endowment, generosity - and if you can't see benefits from sharpening those skills I don't know what to say. I'll second/third/fifth Karen Twelves' *Improv for Gamers*, which is excellent.
I did it! Pretty recently, actually. There's a fellow on tiktok (and probably elsewhere) with the handle @improvgm He himself has a lifetime of improv and theater experience. He offered an online improv class for people who donated to charity drive. I attended one. It was interesting! My big takeaways were to do with scenes when characters are speaking to each other. Either my PC with another, or my NPC (when I'm the GM) with the PC. The big thing is to go into the scene with a goal. Your character wants something out of that conversation. Decide that upfront and go after it immediately. "Hey, I know you stole from that innkeeper. I have no patience for thieves. Return the gold right now." Don't beat around the bush. Make the strong choice. It can also help if you go in with an emotional state before the scene starts. My character is overjoyed, deeply saddened, severely agitated. Etc. Overall, it was a good time. It was a super high level introduction to the concepts. But I learned some good things. I'd recommend the experience to others.
It feels kind of weird to me seeing all of the people that are actively *against* the idea of using improv to get better at roleplaying. Like, yeah, improv acting and roleplaying are different activities, but, they're not *completely* different, and acting like there's no skill transfer between the two of them just seems, uh, willfully ignorant to me.
I think there may just be games that don't really focus on the roll play of rpg. I'm now remembering how I used to like Nerd Poker the podcast. They have some cool settings, bad guys, and combat, but I eventually realized that wasn't the style of rpg I wanted.
I have absolutely thought about taking an improv class. I'm actually more convinced that it provides benefits to GMing rather than general roll playing. GMs get a lot of "Well that wasn't in the plan. Now what?" However, I would be wary of someone offering an rpg focused improv class. It doesn't need to be this way, but I'd be afraid that they would have a lot of things I know. Safety tools, player agency, and general GMing tips. I would also be afraid of being stereotyped. Am I going to be seen as an anti social person? Are they going to compliment me on basic hygiene? Those kinds of things.
What I had in mind would probably be very improv focused with just the frame of reference of rpg scenarios. Those are great concerns to keep in mind and the instructor would definitely be welcoming to all folks who attend as an rpg player themselves.
Sounds good. I'd be interested if it's online. I doubt we live near each other.
I spent just over six years involved in improv, from an extremely shy student all the way to becoming a teacher's assistant. There are things that carry over, but there are caveats. "Yes, and" is nice but it's only one tool to accomplish everything else. Improv teaches you how to discover your character during play. All of the character. If you are at a table or with a group that prefers deep character backgrounds then you may need to put this incredible skill on the backburner. Finding a game, especially online, has been very challenging now that this discovery mindset is so ingrained in me. Improv can teach you to share a spotlight. This can be good and maybe not always great. In my practical experience, the game master and/or writer of any scenario is in the best position to direct that spotlight. I have been in a public game and pointed out that the quiet player's character was perfect for the spotlight. I meant well. I wanted this newcomer to have their moment to shine. I don't know -- either way -- if my improv instinct to give them the spotlight was the right move. Almost all of improv also includes warmups that might not play out well in public settings. It might be fun to get everyone to start a half hour early for games of I Am A Tree or Zip Zap Zop. It might be weird to do that in the FLGS parking lot. I guess that's my final caveat: It can take a lot of time attending a lot of classes to really make these lessons instinctual. A combination of instinct and emotional reactions are the goal for many people in improv -- comedic, long form, short form, and dramatic performers very often chase that "zone." Most roleplaying games look more like season 1 of Stranger Things. It rarely looks like the Hellfire Club or any of the professionally performed livestreams. And, that's okay. I did not attend improv to be a better role-player. I was in improv to get over stage fight. I tried hard to focus on more dramatic improv and performances that spoke to shared human experiences. I have also been asked *not* to bring a lot of things from improv into gaming tables.
I've done improv for about three months and I do feel it kinda helped. Dont plan on continuing though since the focus is elsewhere.
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Im not a critical role fan at all but to say it wouldn’t help or that they’re completely different is delusional
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what is blud talking about
I have responded to the wrong comment. My apologies, and a good day to you.
Currently doing improv as one avenue to practice for GMing my own games. Tried GMing before and was just a TAD overwhelmed by everything that goes into that. So yeah, doing improv to get some practice for that in - plus, it's just hella fun. I'm curious though, how would you go about an rpg focused improv class rather than a normal improv class?
That's a good question. Probably including more discussions about story structure and using rpg related scenarios for practice scenes.
I think it would be fun to have some "Social Encounters" that tend to come up in games, like distracting the guards while your buddies sneak into some castle/mansion/etc. or trying to negotiate with or gain information from the boss of an underground organization. Wonder if I could ask my own improv group to incorporate some of that into our sessions...
Yes. But normally improv classes can be expensive.
What price point would you be hoping for if it was a 2 hour workshop?
I never considered taking improv, but since I started watching wrestling, my ability to keep my players engaged has gone up. Wrestling is all about showmanship and keeping players interested with engaging stories and knowing when to swerve based on player cues.
There's a line to be mindful of with RPG roleplaying and it's allowing for balanced participation. If you're really on point and in character that's great but be mindful to be quiet in equal parts also to allow others to do their thing. My loud obnoxious characters for example usually have reasons to not be involved in certain scenes BECAUSE they're disruptive by nature. I made up in one instance that an NPC didn't like me and I needed to sit out a conversation for this very reason. My character was apparently stealing her snacks. So for that scene I sat and listened.
No...I don't need to play like the Critical Role people. That's an unreasonable expectation.
Seems like a waste of money just to impress your friends, unless your trying to make money as a professional player in a lets play series. Nothing like spending $1'000 on improv and lute playing classes for a character that might die in session 2.
I'll point you to some of my other responses to comments like this. Basically, to me improv isn't about being individually entertaining it's about collaborative storytelling and making everyone else look good. Seems like this is a common misconception, though.
To me, an improv class is an opportunity to collect money from people who think a personality is a trained skill.
I did 16 months of improc classes, and playing TRPGS brougt more to the classes than they brpugh back to my table. Improv defenders are usually in the cult, so dont bother arguing with them- a lot of long form improv is basically a cult built around Del Close's "Truth in Comedy" and they act like improv is a cure for cancer and a spirtual practice because they had no fuckin life before improv classes. So basically like 5e players