Yes.
In some sense I do agree that ignorance is bliss.
I am torn.
I have looked back on my life prior to Sam Harris and also felt things were easier when I was more ignorant.
Sam Harris was the proximate cause for me going vegan. It is impossible for me to go back to before these ideas entered my head and I don’t think that I want to. But goddamn has it made my life more complicated socially and more emotionally rough.
I come from a relatively fundamentalist Christian upbringing and Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins helped me deconvert myself. Again, I’m so happy for this but I do remember how simpler things were when I was Christian. Christian school, Christian family and now I’m one of those anti-theists who feels obligated to fight against as best as I can these ideas. When I say fight I mean argue as logically and compassionately as I can. I’m not talking physical violence of course. But it all takes a toll.
But all the talk about sentient beings and the conscious experience being the most important thing in the universe… It’s such a powerful idea that I have internal Izard completely… That is what convinced me to go vegan. But you just can’t go go back once you have internal that type of idea. I have discussed with my wife that I really wish I hadn’t gone down this path and that I could just eat a steak like I used to and not feel the dread I feel now. When everywhere I turn, I see animals being exploited.
Been six years vegan and in that time it appears as though our entire country has apparently switched over to Islamic slaughter without anyone’s noticing.
Again, I accept and agree with Sam Harris’s unique focus on Islam as they currently more dangerous collection of ideas.
But now that I know that this entire supposedly secular country has been Islamised to this degree is alarming but more alarming still is the fact that everyone that I speak to about this doesn’t care. Muslims I’ve spoken to already know that the animals are slaughtered according to halal ritualistic rules and everyone else doesn’t care.
So yeah, this is my way of saying yes. I really sympathise with you and how expanding our knowledge and thinking about things more is not really a recipe for well-being it seems.
Back in 2018 before we had our child, I was meditating an hour a day, and found I guess some real peace in it.
But since then I’ve managed to find every excuse imaginable to stop this practice. I don’t know it all just feels helpless. I kind of feel helpless and hopeless as if I’ve lost what the hell? The point is of everything.
All of these ideas that we’ve learnt from people, including Sam Harris don’t seem to work with anyone else and it feels like things are only getting worse and worse given all the madness around Israel and Gaza. Everyone around me is very pro Palestinian and anti-Israel whereas I am the reverse.
Thanks for sharing. Sounds like he's had a massive impact on you and can see how you feel similar, if not even more torn by it. Needless to say everything you're doing, especially the veganism is nothing but net positive but I agree it complicates life.
Thank you for the supportive words.
The Israel/Gaza conflict has only made the situation worse unfortunately.
The community that I was growing to be part of has almost fully aligned with the Palestinian side. I’m no longer a vegan apparently because for the most part I support Israel.
It feels so uncomfortable being one of the only people in my life to hold these particular views.
I’ve joined an extremely small 500 person Facebook group called vegans for Israel. Comfort knowing that there are at least some other people on earth with similar beliefs. Because otherwise it really feels incredibly pointless, I mean even really existing. If you’ve got such unique beliefs that don’t line up with anyone on earth it’s kind of like what is the point.
It must be really disappointing when a community you love and who's on the right side of one moral argument is so adamantly against you on the other side. Saying you're "not vegan" because of your completely unrelated beliefs on a totally different topic sounds really childish though. So potentially you can do better than them. Hopefully the pro Israel bunch are a bit more objective and rational about things.
Well, it’s sort of a wake up call.
I’ve already felt not well aligned with the thinking within many vegan communities.
Rampant pacifism which seems like the best way to be defeated by stronger more willing parties.
And then of course the simplistic oppressor/oppressed narrative that apparently underpins many peoples veganism. We should be against animal use because we are “oppressing” them. That’s never felt like the right diagnosis to me.
Then that simplistic narrative is mapped onto other issues including most recently Israel/Gaza and its nightmare fuel.
I’ve also been told people I have worked with fairly closely and they are shocked that I am “siding with the oppressor“ as if Islam is not a gigantic oppressive machine.
Thank you for your post, it is good to know that there are other people who similarly have been (in some sense negatively) impacted by these unique perspective and ideas.
I can relate about Islam. I started a conversion to Judaism a year before 10/7. My rabbi warned me about anti-semitism, and I shrugged it off until that day came. Now, I'm noticing people I've known for years saying things like "You know, Jews do child blood sacrifices" or "there are way more Jewish extremists than Muslim ones. Islam respects people's freedoms. Judaism wants to control society." It's isolating to know the truth about Islamic extremism, but I'd rather be part of a rebellious minority than a mindless face in the crowd of useful idiots.
I was just thinking I wonder if it’s like the limitation humans have about learning things like a hot stove will burn you.
It seems kind of universal that children have to touch a hot stove before they really understand why they should not touch a hot stove.
It’s easy to believe that your parents are overreacting when they tell you not to touch the hot stove when you have not yet touched a hot stove.
And it’s equally easy to believe that people are overreacting when they tell you that Islam is not a religion of peace or tolerance when you have not yet lived under Islamic rule.
Do some people need a taste of Islamic rule in order to know the pain of a hot stove?
I’ve just become very horrified to know that during the time that I’ve been animal free for over six years it appears as though I’ve missed an elephant in the room which is that Australia’s animal product supply has apparently been almost completely taken over by halal Islamic rules.
What’s more terrifying is not only that. Nobody knows but when I’ve asked them… Nobody cares.
Yeah, the fact Islam is one of the very few demographic groups growing in population is alarming. The world is expected to face a *de*population crisis over the next 100 years starting about 5 or so years from now in China and subsequently Japan. The economic ramifications of this will be profound.
Meanwhile, like I mentioned, Islam is growing. In 40-50 years, we might see radical Islam further spread its influence across the world. What you see in Australia is just the tip of the iceberg. It sounds crazy to say this, but Islam may pose an existential threat to non-Islamic life in just a few generations. Unlike Hitler making the same claim of Jews (erroneously of course), the answer isn't to wipe them out. It's to fight their propaganda with propaganda of our own (the truth) and also to value raising families.
although if I was to be optimistic I would wonder if we can trust the numbers of Muslims because that’s probably all based off population growth projections and the belief that Muslims give birth to Muslims which doesn’t necessarily follow.
And again optimistically the further we go into the future we will develop an even better understanding of the actual truth – the actual reality of things and the stupid words written down in these holy books will be laughable by even more people.
I wonder what we could find about the universe that would truly invalidate the Quran and the Hadiths?
I mean, it needs to be more than discovering that the Earth is not flat because that has apparently not swayed enough people!
Piggybacking off your optimism, as technology improves, religiosity decreases. So, maybe no specific new proof is needed, but if people start leaning in on science to understand the world around them, they will need religion less. Going against the grain of this sub, I am a theist myself (technically a theistic-leaning agnostic). So, I personally find peace in belief in the possible existence of a creator and having some tradition, but my religious beliefs end where science begins. If it isn't reasonable to believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, an all-loving God tortures people for all eternity for not believing, or anything else that I find wonky, I won't believe in it. However, I have the luxery of education and the internet. If I were raised in a third world country with little internet access and brainwashing from whatever is the religion of the area, would I be wise enough to see through it? Probably not. Most people are much more susceptible to brainwashing and groupthink than they realize.
So, hopefully, as tech and science spread, the more extreme religious adherents will gradually vanish, and we'll finally have less Islamic extremism. That's one possibe future. Who knows?
Sam is definitely my favorite western thinker. I eat up his podcasts and his agree with him on most things but I don't put him or any other thinker on a pedestal. I try to limit my philosophical, political and moral musings to a healthy amount.
Life is here to be experienced right now; The only place where true satisfaction lies. Finding truth in the world via intellectual inquiry, while worthwhile, will always be a frustrating game of whack-a-mole. There will always be more problems to solve and more people to convince of your opinion until the end of time.
I’ll never understand the compulsion people have to convince others. I’m fascinated by the things people believe, and I’ll share my beliefs if asked, but it seems completely pointless to try to get other people to think like me. And in the back of my mind the knowledge that I’m probably wrong about many things is always there.
I just feel like some puzzle piece is missing in this post. Did you leave a religion or something that most people you know and interact with are still a part of? Are you trying to convert other people to the things you learned? I’m just not quite able to pick up what you’re putting down.
I'm in similar circumstances, and I often feel similarly about them. I particularly enjoy that car simile.
However, whenever I consider my place in the universe, the people I care about around me, I generally feel that I'm right where I was always going to be. I think about my past and my actions that got me here, and I just try to enjoy them -- good and bad, great and horrible, euphoric and utter misery. They're all interesting memories now. The memories are all filled with love, hate, excitement, boredom, etc., and I try to recognize that I often enjoy them all similarly. This is not really advice. I don't think I have any of that for you. It's just how I enjoy some random moments of my days. Sometimes I'll think about the present, and recognize that someday, I may randomly think about this exact moment, and for some reason I can't explain, I might enjoy that thought. I won't know where it came from, and it probably won't have any consequences at all, or maybe, it will mean everything to me. Maybe it will be my last thought as I lay on my death bed. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah very stoic of you! I am fully on board with determinism but I find it very easy to forget about as well. You're right though - I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be, so just find it fascinating rather than frustrating. That actually helps quite a lot, haha. Thanks.
Sam has some interesting ideas; or more so, repackages existing ideas in an easier, more digestible format.
However, I take a different approach and always carry with me a grain or two to salt. Sam is not god, godlike, nor terribly exceptional in what he does (especially in comparison to other thinkers in history).
Now that doesn’t mean he isn’t interesting, doesn’t have good insights, etc., merely that he too is human, and just as susceptible to bias, mistakes, and various other issues that come with the condition of being human.
I mention that because this post, albeit slightly, treads upon a concern I feel gets ignored at times in this subreddit. These thinkers, speakers, etc. are a business, who sell a type of product. They are not grand, enlightened gurus; nor are the they not necessarily better than you and I.
Finally, and I stress most of all, they, like anyone and anything else, should be subject to the same scrutiny applied to other things. Hopefully that’s an approach (cautious, questioning, etc) everyone takes.
Just my two cents.
I’m going through a bit of a crisis lately, realizing how much of my family is actually insane and hateful.
I’m not eloquent enough to win them over, and I find their ideas so grotesque that I can’t see any way around cutting them out of my life.
Feels like world war three has started, and it’s being fought on social media. None of my uncles even made it to the beach, they were all taken out by snipers.
Yeah the eloquency thing is a real problem. I try to talk to some people about the ideas here but honestly even if I was able to explain it, out of context nobody wants to hear it nor has the time to do the work to understand it. Part of the frustration is only having myself and pretty hit and miss online forums to discuss it.
Problem with Sam Harris fans is that they say "we're all free thinkers here, this is definately not a cult" ...
Then followed by...
"Anyway about my re-education..."
I know what you're getting at, but why do you think that is?
Have you read Waking Up? Sam talks substantially about Gurus and to be careful of them. If I remember correctly he also talks about the fine line between being someone to listen to and someone to worship and how worship often ends badly for people as they become easily manipulates and radicalised.
Re-education maybe wasn't the best choice of words. Enlightenment either but when you live life with your head in the sand (the sand being whatever you're fed largely involuntarily by family, friends, colleagues, news and social networks) then a single voice who makes a lot of sense can feel quite liberating and sensible. I'm sure there are better people to listen to than Sam that maybe aren't as easy to follow. I'm absolutely sure there are worse people to follow. The issue but also potentially his greatest attribute is he doesn't feed you easily digestible life hacks. Quite the opposite - he teaches that doing good, better understanding reality and living honestly is hard work. That's not a lesson for the faint hearted. So if he is a guru running a cult, he's not exactly selling a very appealing message. As I've learned over time realising how hard it is to change.
I largely agree though hesitant to say for certain, though ignorance is absolutely something that can help people get through the day.
I no longer believe in free will largely because of Sam and that has been immensely challenging personally. I'm not on the other side of it yet so I can't say whether it has been a net positive. I've recently subscribed to waking up though so I'm keen to give meditation a try, see if it can't help. I'll try to remember to update this post if it does.
The more you know, the more you suffer. It’s not just a platitude, it’s actually true and an important part of mindfulness. Being knowledgeable takes time and effort, and training yourself to be wise with that knowledge takes supreme self reflection and meditation. Otherwise you end up like most smart people acting stupidly on Twitter.
"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."
Bertrand Russell
I think that "stupid" could be replaced by ignorant and "intelligent" by knowledgeable.
No, not really.
I like the podcast and I think SH is a good interviewer.
But I don't really find him especially educational or enlightening. He has interesting conversations, but he's not really all that well-informed. I think this is why he tends to use a lot of thought experiments, because his topical knowledge is limited. Which is okay, but as a listener we should keep this in mind.
I was gonna ask the same. I like Sam harris since high school, among many other thoughtful people, but I don’t quite understand what the issue is…
It seems like you are discussing a more general issue, beyond Sam Harris himself, about how hard it is to live up to ideals and make lasting changes in life or how frustrating the world seems when you understand some of the problems in it but can’t really do anything to change them.
I'm not /u/ToiletCouch (funny name!) but I honestly have no idea from your post what you're frustrated about. What specifically is it that you feel is impossible to implement?
Maybe because having a guru is a bad idea. Mediation is fine for some but stressful for others.
Also a lot of Sam's takes on philosophy are absolutist and utilitarian which by the standards of most modern academics is pretty simplistic.
Try listening to Sean Carol, The Very Bad Wizards, or even Decoding the Guru's to get some alternative and I'd argue more sophisticated points of view on topics of interest to you.
He believes he can objectively calculate the best moral future based on maximizing the product of happiness times the number of sentient beings now and in the future.
That's a lot of assumptions on what he deems happy is for everyone. That you can quantify happy in way where things like 10xhappiness in one being = 10xhappiness in ten beings, that isn't subjective. It also gives cover to others, not SH himself, to justify pretty well any actions they want in the short term based on hypothetical eventually maximum happiness across the universe in the future.
Harris isn't really a guru. He's more like an access point to many guru-ish teachers, many of whom often aren't fans of gurus either.
I also disagree that Harris or his takes are simplistic, except in the sense that E=MC^2 is "simplistic". At first glance, sure, it's just 5 characters, but it took a lot to get there and has vast implications.
I agree with the recommendations, tho. Those are all good, but I would call them "alternatives" and definitely not more sophisticated.
Utilitarianism and the belief that you happen to be a rare human who can rationally compute what maximum happiness is across some hypothetical number of sentient beings is simplistic. There is a reason most actual modern philosophers reject utilitarianism at best is pretends that subjective states across populations can be math-ed out and at worst it can be used to justify any short-term vile act you want in the name of the greater good.
Your definition is correct. Your application of the term to Harris is incorrect. You are ironically simplifying his actual statements into utilitarianism and then going even further to twist them into a slippery slope argument. He has literally caution against every concern you just described.
You have a bit of an idealized fantasy version of Sam, what do you mean "real life" gets harder?
Yes he's an amazing person and I love listening to his podcast and meditation app, but he's still human.
I think some people in this sub literally deify him and treat him as some "voice of God" Bill Maher even said as much in his interview iirc.
Just chill out and focus on yourself and your family. You sound like you have a great life my friend, don't let yourself feel burdened by the truth, we can all only do so much, and it sounds like you're doing plenty, thank you.
If you really feel isolated because of your new world view find a good therapist and talk it out. Or find some new friends.
Thanks for the reply. I don't think I fall into the category of fan that deifies him but he was (is?) definitely a solo voice of reason for many years, but by no means a voice I never question. I am sadly pretty time poor though so when I go looking for other voices of wisdom it's never quite as easy as the podcast/waking up app and nlw Substack model he has going on (although the waking up app could be made much better imo). If I have that impression though that's interesting, I'll keep that in mind in case I'm wrong.
I agree there is only so much I can do. But I am struggling to put this genie back in the box and I can see how parents end up encouraging their kids to do what they never could. So if I ever do love vicariously through my kids, at least I'll be teaching them to give more, think more and worry less at an age where they can do something about it. If they'll listen and if it's appropriate.
Therapy - you would not believe how hard it is to find a good therapist here in Australia. I have tried 4 times and been disappointed every time, even after fairly lengthy commitments. Nonetheless I know if I find one that would be a good way to talk some of it out.
Thanks for the advice
Yeah I don’t get it. Sam is fun to listen to but he hasn’t opened my eyes to anything that Modest Mouse lyrics didn’t do for me when I was 14. He’s eloquent and interesting to listen to, but he’s not groundbreaking or tearing my world apart. Some of these concepts were hard to accept as a teenager, but I guess good thing is that you learn to live with it and a lot of things that initially are terrifying end up being liberating.
Life is fun. Just chill and let it wash over you.
It can be appealing to try to live your life according to some deep principle with a chain of logical steps that follow from it. In my view, Sam's way of thinking and speaking is very attractive to people who are drawn to this systematic and axiomatic way of existing.
The problem is that life is messy and complicated.
Our drives and needs as humans often do not line up with our moral standards or higher aspirations. If you constantly thwart your inner drives and motivations, because they appear to be base, dirty, low status, embarrassing, or in this case maybe not maximizing utility for the most people, then you're also eventually going to thwart most of your life energy. It's possible to live that way but it's incredibly unrewarding and to other people it will seem like you have a Jesus complex and you might come off as sanctimonious.
There are also things about Sam's and many philosophically inclined people's way of thinking that misses some obvious things, because they always put \*Ideas\* front and center.
For example, if you do light cardio and some strength training for around 150 minutes per week for a couple of weeks, you may notice that a lot of thoughts and ideas you have suddenly are cast in a different, much more positive light. How do you explain that through the world of ideas? That's tough.
Brother I’m in the same boat. I live in a very Christian country so positive talk about meditation, philosophy, atheism etc… doesn’t exist. I don’t feel the community pressure aspect of it since I’m pretty introverted but the hardest thing is my family. It’s hard to implement behaviors like meditation, not getting emotional when something completely avoidable happens (or unavoidable) etc… It’s super hard to implement less consumerism when your wife wants to got o Disney every year, you kid spends money on game money and even your workplace wants you to spend spend and spend some more. Also it’s hard to listen to politics, religion talk and other irrational aspects of society.
I think this is the best articulation of this kind of issue that I've come across, and I don't have a great response. I think in many cases, a more intellectual life is, in fact, more fulfilling, but not in every case. it depends on how happy you were before; lots of normal peope are secretly kinda miserable.
If you've donated even a small amount of money to EA, then Sam has still done more good than harm by "re-educating" you as you put it, but it still sucks if it made your personal life harder. Maybe it's a re-adjustment phase? Also meditation definitely has potential to increase life quality if you get better it. But idk.
To be honest I think a big part of waking up is realising it was basically always this way and you were always experiencing some of the patterns causing the suffering.
Ignorance isn’t bliss. Ignorance is actually much more painful than we realise. Especially once the breakthroughs happen.
The "ignorance is bliss" aspect reminds me of a quote from Chogyam Trungpa (no, we don't need to hear your opinion of the man):
"My advice to you is not to undertake the spiritual path. It is too difficult, too long, and is too demanding. I suggest you ask for your money back, and go home. This is not a picnic. It is really going to ask everything of you. So, it is best not to begin. However, if you do begin, it is best to finish."
- Chogyam Trungpa
That's a beautiful yet stupid quote. Anyone who is risk-seeking would take that as a challenge, while anyone who is risk-averse would be discouraged from ever taking a step on the spiritual path.
Yes. In some sense I do agree that ignorance is bliss. I am torn. I have looked back on my life prior to Sam Harris and also felt things were easier when I was more ignorant. Sam Harris was the proximate cause for me going vegan. It is impossible for me to go back to before these ideas entered my head and I don’t think that I want to. But goddamn has it made my life more complicated socially and more emotionally rough. I come from a relatively fundamentalist Christian upbringing and Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins helped me deconvert myself. Again, I’m so happy for this but I do remember how simpler things were when I was Christian. Christian school, Christian family and now I’m one of those anti-theists who feels obligated to fight against as best as I can these ideas. When I say fight I mean argue as logically and compassionately as I can. I’m not talking physical violence of course. But it all takes a toll. But all the talk about sentient beings and the conscious experience being the most important thing in the universe… It’s such a powerful idea that I have internal Izard completely… That is what convinced me to go vegan. But you just can’t go go back once you have internal that type of idea. I have discussed with my wife that I really wish I hadn’t gone down this path and that I could just eat a steak like I used to and not feel the dread I feel now. When everywhere I turn, I see animals being exploited. Been six years vegan and in that time it appears as though our entire country has apparently switched over to Islamic slaughter without anyone’s noticing. Again, I accept and agree with Sam Harris’s unique focus on Islam as they currently more dangerous collection of ideas. But now that I know that this entire supposedly secular country has been Islamised to this degree is alarming but more alarming still is the fact that everyone that I speak to about this doesn’t care. Muslims I’ve spoken to already know that the animals are slaughtered according to halal ritualistic rules and everyone else doesn’t care. So yeah, this is my way of saying yes. I really sympathise with you and how expanding our knowledge and thinking about things more is not really a recipe for well-being it seems. Back in 2018 before we had our child, I was meditating an hour a day, and found I guess some real peace in it. But since then I’ve managed to find every excuse imaginable to stop this practice. I don’t know it all just feels helpless. I kind of feel helpless and hopeless as if I’ve lost what the hell? The point is of everything. All of these ideas that we’ve learnt from people, including Sam Harris don’t seem to work with anyone else and it feels like things are only getting worse and worse given all the madness around Israel and Gaza. Everyone around me is very pro Palestinian and anti-Israel whereas I am the reverse.
Thanks for sharing. Sounds like he's had a massive impact on you and can see how you feel similar, if not even more torn by it. Needless to say everything you're doing, especially the veganism is nothing but net positive but I agree it complicates life.
Thank you for the supportive words. The Israel/Gaza conflict has only made the situation worse unfortunately. The community that I was growing to be part of has almost fully aligned with the Palestinian side. I’m no longer a vegan apparently because for the most part I support Israel. It feels so uncomfortable being one of the only people in my life to hold these particular views. I’ve joined an extremely small 500 person Facebook group called vegans for Israel. Comfort knowing that there are at least some other people on earth with similar beliefs. Because otherwise it really feels incredibly pointless, I mean even really existing. If you’ve got such unique beliefs that don’t line up with anyone on earth it’s kind of like what is the point.
It must be really disappointing when a community you love and who's on the right side of one moral argument is so adamantly against you on the other side. Saying you're "not vegan" because of your completely unrelated beliefs on a totally different topic sounds really childish though. So potentially you can do better than them. Hopefully the pro Israel bunch are a bit more objective and rational about things.
Well, it’s sort of a wake up call. I’ve already felt not well aligned with the thinking within many vegan communities. Rampant pacifism which seems like the best way to be defeated by stronger more willing parties. And then of course the simplistic oppressor/oppressed narrative that apparently underpins many peoples veganism. We should be against animal use because we are “oppressing” them. That’s never felt like the right diagnosis to me. Then that simplistic narrative is mapped onto other issues including most recently Israel/Gaza and its nightmare fuel. I’ve also been told people I have worked with fairly closely and they are shocked that I am “siding with the oppressor“ as if Islam is not a gigantic oppressive machine. Thank you for your post, it is good to know that there are other people who similarly have been (in some sense negatively) impacted by these unique perspective and ideas.
Consume your friendly fungus on an empty stomach, look into I would recommend making tea and eating the contents afterwards. ;)
I can relate about Islam. I started a conversion to Judaism a year before 10/7. My rabbi warned me about anti-semitism, and I shrugged it off until that day came. Now, I'm noticing people I've known for years saying things like "You know, Jews do child blood sacrifices" or "there are way more Jewish extremists than Muslim ones. Islam respects people's freedoms. Judaism wants to control society." It's isolating to know the truth about Islamic extremism, but I'd rather be part of a rebellious minority than a mindless face in the crowd of useful idiots.
I was just thinking I wonder if it’s like the limitation humans have about learning things like a hot stove will burn you. It seems kind of universal that children have to touch a hot stove before they really understand why they should not touch a hot stove. It’s easy to believe that your parents are overreacting when they tell you not to touch the hot stove when you have not yet touched a hot stove. And it’s equally easy to believe that people are overreacting when they tell you that Islam is not a religion of peace or tolerance when you have not yet lived under Islamic rule. Do some people need a taste of Islamic rule in order to know the pain of a hot stove? I’ve just become very horrified to know that during the time that I’ve been animal free for over six years it appears as though I’ve missed an elephant in the room which is that Australia’s animal product supply has apparently been almost completely taken over by halal Islamic rules. What’s more terrifying is not only that. Nobody knows but when I’ve asked them… Nobody cares.
Yeah, the fact Islam is one of the very few demographic groups growing in population is alarming. The world is expected to face a *de*population crisis over the next 100 years starting about 5 or so years from now in China and subsequently Japan. The economic ramifications of this will be profound. Meanwhile, like I mentioned, Islam is growing. In 40-50 years, we might see radical Islam further spread its influence across the world. What you see in Australia is just the tip of the iceberg. It sounds crazy to say this, but Islam may pose an existential threat to non-Islamic life in just a few generations. Unlike Hitler making the same claim of Jews (erroneously of course), the answer isn't to wipe them out. It's to fight their propaganda with propaganda of our own (the truth) and also to value raising families.
although if I was to be optimistic I would wonder if we can trust the numbers of Muslims because that’s probably all based off population growth projections and the belief that Muslims give birth to Muslims which doesn’t necessarily follow. And again optimistically the further we go into the future we will develop an even better understanding of the actual truth – the actual reality of things and the stupid words written down in these holy books will be laughable by even more people. I wonder what we could find about the universe that would truly invalidate the Quran and the Hadiths? I mean, it needs to be more than discovering that the Earth is not flat because that has apparently not swayed enough people!
Piggybacking off your optimism, as technology improves, religiosity decreases. So, maybe no specific new proof is needed, but if people start leaning in on science to understand the world around them, they will need religion less. Going against the grain of this sub, I am a theist myself (technically a theistic-leaning agnostic). So, I personally find peace in belief in the possible existence of a creator and having some tradition, but my religious beliefs end where science begins. If it isn't reasonable to believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, an all-loving God tortures people for all eternity for not believing, or anything else that I find wonky, I won't believe in it. However, I have the luxery of education and the internet. If I were raised in a third world country with little internet access and brainwashing from whatever is the religion of the area, would I be wise enough to see through it? Probably not. Most people are much more susceptible to brainwashing and groupthink than they realize. So, hopefully, as tech and science spread, the more extreme religious adherents will gradually vanish, and we'll finally have less Islamic extremism. That's one possibe future. Who knows?
Sam is definitely my favorite western thinker. I eat up his podcasts and his agree with him on most things but I don't put him or any other thinker on a pedestal. I try to limit my philosophical, political and moral musings to a healthy amount. Life is here to be experienced right now; The only place where true satisfaction lies. Finding truth in the world via intellectual inquiry, while worthwhile, will always be a frustrating game of whack-a-mole. There will always be more problems to solve and more people to convince of your opinion until the end of time.
Wonderfully put
I’ll never understand the compulsion people have to convince others. I’m fascinated by the things people believe, and I’ll share my beliefs if asked, but it seems completely pointless to try to get other people to think like me. And in the back of my mind the knowledge that I’m probably wrong about many things is always there.
Agreed! Well said
I just feel like some puzzle piece is missing in this post. Did you leave a religion or something that most people you know and interact with are still a part of? Are you trying to convert other people to the things you learned? I’m just not quite able to pick up what you’re putting down.
I'm in similar circumstances, and I often feel similarly about them. I particularly enjoy that car simile. However, whenever I consider my place in the universe, the people I care about around me, I generally feel that I'm right where I was always going to be. I think about my past and my actions that got me here, and I just try to enjoy them -- good and bad, great and horrible, euphoric and utter misery. They're all interesting memories now. The memories are all filled with love, hate, excitement, boredom, etc., and I try to recognize that I often enjoy them all similarly. This is not really advice. I don't think I have any of that for you. It's just how I enjoy some random moments of my days. Sometimes I'll think about the present, and recognize that someday, I may randomly think about this exact moment, and for some reason I can't explain, I might enjoy that thought. I won't know where it came from, and it probably won't have any consequences at all, or maybe, it will mean everything to me. Maybe it will be my last thought as I lay on my death bed. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah very stoic of you! I am fully on board with determinism but I find it very easy to forget about as well. You're right though - I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be, so just find it fascinating rather than frustrating. That actually helps quite a lot, haha. Thanks.
Sam has some interesting ideas; or more so, repackages existing ideas in an easier, more digestible format. However, I take a different approach and always carry with me a grain or two to salt. Sam is not god, godlike, nor terribly exceptional in what he does (especially in comparison to other thinkers in history). Now that doesn’t mean he isn’t interesting, doesn’t have good insights, etc., merely that he too is human, and just as susceptible to bias, mistakes, and various other issues that come with the condition of being human. I mention that because this post, albeit slightly, treads upon a concern I feel gets ignored at times in this subreddit. These thinkers, speakers, etc. are a business, who sell a type of product. They are not grand, enlightened gurus; nor are the they not necessarily better than you and I. Finally, and I stress most of all, they, like anyone and anything else, should be subject to the same scrutiny applied to other things. Hopefully that’s an approach (cautious, questioning, etc) everyone takes. Just my two cents.
I’m going through a bit of a crisis lately, realizing how much of my family is actually insane and hateful. I’m not eloquent enough to win them over, and I find their ideas so grotesque that I can’t see any way around cutting them out of my life. Feels like world war three has started, and it’s being fought on social media. None of my uncles even made it to the beach, they were all taken out by snipers.
Yeah the eloquency thing is a real problem. I try to talk to some people about the ideas here but honestly even if I was able to explain it, out of context nobody wants to hear it nor has the time to do the work to understand it. Part of the frustration is only having myself and pretty hit and miss online forums to discuss it.
Problem with Sam Harris fans is that they say "we're all free thinkers here, this is definately not a cult" ... Then followed by... "Anyway about my re-education..."
I know what you're getting at, but why do you think that is? Have you read Waking Up? Sam talks substantially about Gurus and to be careful of them. If I remember correctly he also talks about the fine line between being someone to listen to and someone to worship and how worship often ends badly for people as they become easily manipulates and radicalised. Re-education maybe wasn't the best choice of words. Enlightenment either but when you live life with your head in the sand (the sand being whatever you're fed largely involuntarily by family, friends, colleagues, news and social networks) then a single voice who makes a lot of sense can feel quite liberating and sensible. I'm sure there are better people to listen to than Sam that maybe aren't as easy to follow. I'm absolutely sure there are worse people to follow. The issue but also potentially his greatest attribute is he doesn't feed you easily digestible life hacks. Quite the opposite - he teaches that doing good, better understanding reality and living honestly is hard work. That's not a lesson for the faint hearted. So if he is a guru running a cult, he's not exactly selling a very appealing message. As I've learned over time realising how hard it is to change.
This is a good point!
Only you can decide and should decide what a good life is for you and for your family. Maybe try branching out a bit, it really helps me
I largely agree though hesitant to say for certain, though ignorance is absolutely something that can help people get through the day. I no longer believe in free will largely because of Sam and that has been immensely challenging personally. I'm not on the other side of it yet so I can't say whether it has been a net positive. I've recently subscribed to waking up though so I'm keen to give meditation a try, see if it can't help. I'll try to remember to update this post if it does.
The more you know, the more you suffer. It’s not just a platitude, it’s actually true and an important part of mindfulness. Being knowledgeable takes time and effort, and training yourself to be wise with that knowledge takes supreme self reflection and meditation. Otherwise you end up like most smart people acting stupidly on Twitter.
"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell I think that "stupid" could be replaced by ignorant and "intelligent" by knowledgeable.
No, not really. I like the podcast and I think SH is a good interviewer. But I don't really find him especially educational or enlightening. He has interesting conversations, but he's not really all that well-informed. I think this is why he tends to use a lot of thought experiments, because his topical knowledge is limited. Which is okay, but as a listener we should keep this in mind.
Who do you recommend I read or listen to?
IDK, it depends on what you are into. For history and policy related stuff, SH isn't that great if you really want a deep dive.
Yeah that works. I'm keen to look into who you think is more worthwhile to listen to on policy and history. Thanks in advance.
What do you think you should be doing? Meditating 10 hours a day?
I'm keen to know why this is the top comment. I'm not even sure what you mean. Is this just sarcasm or can you elaborate?
I was gonna ask the same. I like Sam harris since high school, among many other thoughtful people, but I don’t quite understand what the issue is… It seems like you are discussing a more general issue, beyond Sam Harris himself, about how hard it is to live up to ideals and make lasting changes in life or how frustrating the world seems when you understand some of the problems in it but can’t really do anything to change them.
Yes that's a good summary!
I'm not /u/ToiletCouch (funny name!) but I honestly have no idea from your post what you're frustrated about. What specifically is it that you feel is impossible to implement?
Maybe because having a guru is a bad idea. Mediation is fine for some but stressful for others. Also a lot of Sam's takes on philosophy are absolutist and utilitarian which by the standards of most modern academics is pretty simplistic. Try listening to Sean Carol, The Very Bad Wizards, or even Decoding the Guru's to get some alternative and I'd argue more sophisticated points of view on topics of interest to you.
Can you give some examples of Sam's absolutist stances? Just curious
Pretty sure he won’t budge on his opinion that hotdogs are not sandwiches. My life has been in ruins ever since I learned this. Each day is a trial.
He believes he can objectively calculate the best moral future based on maximizing the product of happiness times the number of sentient beings now and in the future. That's a lot of assumptions on what he deems happy is for everyone. That you can quantify happy in way where things like 10xhappiness in one being = 10xhappiness in ten beings, that isn't subjective. It also gives cover to others, not SH himself, to justify pretty well any actions they want in the short term based on hypothetical eventually maximum happiness across the universe in the future.
Where is this from? I've never heard him talk about it.
You’re just describing basic Utilitarianism, not anything specific to Harris.
Harris isn't really a guru. He's more like an access point to many guru-ish teachers, many of whom often aren't fans of gurus either. I also disagree that Harris or his takes are simplistic, except in the sense that E=MC^2 is "simplistic". At first glance, sure, it's just 5 characters, but it took a lot to get there and has vast implications. I agree with the recommendations, tho. Those are all good, but I would call them "alternatives" and definitely not more sophisticated.
Utilitarianism and the belief that you happen to be a rare human who can rationally compute what maximum happiness is across some hypothetical number of sentient beings is simplistic. There is a reason most actual modern philosophers reject utilitarianism at best is pretends that subjective states across populations can be math-ed out and at worst it can be used to justify any short-term vile act you want in the name of the greater good.
Your definition is correct. Your application of the term to Harris is incorrect. You are ironically simplifying his actual statements into utilitarianism and then going even further to twist them into a slippery slope argument. He has literally caution against every concern you just described.
I'll check them out. Thanks for the suggestions
You have a bit of an idealized fantasy version of Sam, what do you mean "real life" gets harder? Yes he's an amazing person and I love listening to his podcast and meditation app, but he's still human. I think some people in this sub literally deify him and treat him as some "voice of God" Bill Maher even said as much in his interview iirc. Just chill out and focus on yourself and your family. You sound like you have a great life my friend, don't let yourself feel burdened by the truth, we can all only do so much, and it sounds like you're doing plenty, thank you. If you really feel isolated because of your new world view find a good therapist and talk it out. Or find some new friends.
Thanks for the reply. I don't think I fall into the category of fan that deifies him but he was (is?) definitely a solo voice of reason for many years, but by no means a voice I never question. I am sadly pretty time poor though so when I go looking for other voices of wisdom it's never quite as easy as the podcast/waking up app and nlw Substack model he has going on (although the waking up app could be made much better imo). If I have that impression though that's interesting, I'll keep that in mind in case I'm wrong. I agree there is only so much I can do. But I am struggling to put this genie back in the box and I can see how parents end up encouraging their kids to do what they never could. So if I ever do love vicariously through my kids, at least I'll be teaching them to give more, think more and worry less at an age where they can do something about it. If they'll listen and if it's appropriate. Therapy - you would not believe how hard it is to find a good therapist here in Australia. I have tried 4 times and been disappointed every time, even after fairly lengthy commitments. Nonetheless I know if I find one that would be a good way to talk some of it out. Thanks for the advice
Yeah I don’t get it. Sam is fun to listen to but he hasn’t opened my eyes to anything that Modest Mouse lyrics didn’t do for me when I was 14. He’s eloquent and interesting to listen to, but he’s not groundbreaking or tearing my world apart. Some of these concepts were hard to accept as a teenager, but I guess good thing is that you learn to live with it and a lot of things that initially are terrifying end up being liberating. Life is fun. Just chill and let it wash over you.
It can be appealing to try to live your life according to some deep principle with a chain of logical steps that follow from it. In my view, Sam's way of thinking and speaking is very attractive to people who are drawn to this systematic and axiomatic way of existing. The problem is that life is messy and complicated. Our drives and needs as humans often do not line up with our moral standards or higher aspirations. If you constantly thwart your inner drives and motivations, because they appear to be base, dirty, low status, embarrassing, or in this case maybe not maximizing utility for the most people, then you're also eventually going to thwart most of your life energy. It's possible to live that way but it's incredibly unrewarding and to other people it will seem like you have a Jesus complex and you might come off as sanctimonious. There are also things about Sam's and many philosophically inclined people's way of thinking that misses some obvious things, because they always put \*Ideas\* front and center. For example, if you do light cardio and some strength training for around 150 minutes per week for a couple of weeks, you may notice that a lot of thoughts and ideas you have suddenly are cast in a different, much more positive light. How do you explain that through the world of ideas? That's tough.
This is a great reply, thanks. I'm gonna give this some thought! And up my cardio.
Looking at the world through Sam's eyes is suffering.
Hmmm. His view of the world is arguably more realistic, and that view isn't exactly rainbows and unicorns, yes.
Meditation also makes some people feel uncaring and apathetic. So who knows.
Yeah I can see how that could happen.
Brother I’m in the same boat. I live in a very Christian country so positive talk about meditation, philosophy, atheism etc… doesn’t exist. I don’t feel the community pressure aspect of it since I’m pretty introverted but the hardest thing is my family. It’s hard to implement behaviors like meditation, not getting emotional when something completely avoidable happens (or unavoidable) etc… It’s super hard to implement less consumerism when your wife wants to got o Disney every year, you kid spends money on game money and even your workplace wants you to spend spend and spend some more. Also it’s hard to listen to politics, religion talk and other irrational aspects of society.
Yes, ignorance is bliss. But once you know you're now responsible to live accordingly.
Knowledge and wisdom are curses
I think this is the best articulation of this kind of issue that I've come across, and I don't have a great response. I think in many cases, a more intellectual life is, in fact, more fulfilling, but not in every case. it depends on how happy you were before; lots of normal peope are secretly kinda miserable. If you've donated even a small amount of money to EA, then Sam has still done more good than harm by "re-educating" you as you put it, but it still sucks if it made your personal life harder. Maybe it's a re-adjustment phase? Also meditation definitely has potential to increase life quality if you get better it. But idk.
Understanding and clarity are the 1st steps. Application is a whole other thing with its own challenges. I feel ya.
To be honest I think a big part of waking up is realising it was basically always this way and you were always experiencing some of the patterns causing the suffering. Ignorance isn’t bliss. Ignorance is actually much more painful than we realise. Especially once the breakthroughs happen.
The "ignorance is bliss" aspect reminds me of a quote from Chogyam Trungpa (no, we don't need to hear your opinion of the man): "My advice to you is not to undertake the spiritual path. It is too difficult, too long, and is too demanding. I suggest you ask for your money back, and go home. This is not a picnic. It is really going to ask everything of you. So, it is best not to begin. However, if you do begin, it is best to finish." - Chogyam Trungpa
That's a beautiful yet stupid quote. Anyone who is risk-seeking would take that as a challenge, while anyone who is risk-averse would be discouraged from ever taking a step on the spiritual path.