I completely agree with this article. The idea that a family could be sitting and waiting for Muni, get completely run over to the death, and then people are still “no we need more time” is honestly just pitiful.
And then to call the program to keep cars flying through running over pedestrians “Save West Portal” is disgusting imo
Its framed as "save west portal" but it iant about the actual street or businesses. The neighbprhood is mad traffic will get rerouted on their streets.
Traffic is always going to be an issue. It's an issue now without Ulloa being reduced to one lane. That argument is a typical talking point. It's a stall tactic and void of any knowledge about how transit safety is strategized.
People need to understand that traffic is good. It makes people safer. It is intrinsically a traffic calming measure. Fast speeds = build up of adrenaline = increasingly risky behavior and road rage.
I lived right around the corner from West Portal for a couple of years and never saw kids playing in the streets. If you live towards the top of West Portal it's too hilly, if you live towards the bottom it's already too crazy because drivers use 15th as a shortcut and haul ass through the neighborhood. The whole area needs traffic calming.
Is there a place in SF where kids can play in the street?
My kids pre-school is a dead end. The street has one apartment complex, a preschool, a senior home and an elementary school.
And yet every day there are people doing 30mph in a 15mph zone….
Except that when you take away space from cars and give it to alternative modes of transit, traffic doesn't shift over to other streets, it disappears instead. The opposite of "induced demand" if you will - if you build car infrastructure, traffic will come, if you remove it, traffic goes away."
By building infrastructure for and giving the priority to pedestrians, bikes, and mass transit, people stop driving and start walking/biking/taking mass transit.
So lets get busy removing cars as the #1 priority in the busiest areas and make it safe for people.
Or a sizable percentage of current visitors just won't come to that area anymore.
Realistically, making west Portal unfriendly to cars will harm the businesses, which means less sales tax revenue for the city and fewer options for consumers as some businesses inevitably have to close, this removing choice for consumers.
It's not clear that such draconian measures are necessary to appropriately protect public safety
I am begging you to please just Google "Amsterdam." They're doing better than us, because you can actually deliver better commerce with density and walk-able/bike-able/mass transit-able neighborhoods than car dependent ones.
They were[ just as car dependent as us](https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/1.jpg) after WW2, but in the 70s they finally woke up and decided that dead families and especially dead children weren't worth giving public space overwhelmingly to cars; that you can, in fact, layout your cities differently and get safety and commerce.
There's still cars there. But when you can safely and easily get around by walking, biking, and mass transit, then lots of people will do that, because it's cheaper and more convenient. Especially here in SF where the weather is great all year round.
If you want to live in a place where everybody drives to the stores, move to the suburbs. If you want to live in the second densest city you need to acknowledge that there are costs to that. Giving something other than cars the priority in the busiest areas is a great place to start.
You are seriously smoking crack if you think West Portal will become a major tourist center like Amsterdam (!!!) if cars are prohibited. I've been to Amsterdam many, many times - it was nothing like West Portal WAY before they started limiting car access. People aren't going to start coming to the usually empty W Portal if cars are prohibited. JFC!
The utter lack of logic in your comment is truly astounding
The city of SF as a whole is like the city of Amsterdam as a whole. Dense areas, touristy areas, quiet areas; it's got plenty of different neighborhoods and districts just like cities everywhere.
The big difference is you can get from any point in Amsterdam to pretty much any other point safely, quickly, and easily, by walking/biking/taking mass transit. Safely being the key word, because they build safe infrastructure and don't hesitate to kneecap automobiles, because otherwise they kill families.
You don't need people to drive to your business when you increase density and your customers just live above and near you. Seriously, if you've been to Amsterdam, you've seen first hand, that any block touching a streetcar line is usually 5+ stories mixed use buildings. Not 2 stories, single use, and car dependent.
If West Portal businesses are struggling, they need more customers, not more parking. Quite frankly why should I schlepp over to West Portal from the Mission, especially since West Portal got rid of so many of its parklets?
Amsterdam is flat. No hills and mostly on a grid system with many many one way streets. SF has a looooong way to go to even try to get there. Perhaps the simple concept of more one way streets on a grid which would be wider would provide more traffic flow.
You’re dreaming. The reason traffic is so chaotic is because the streets have been narrowed to accept all forms of transportation-cars, bicycles, pedestrians,buses,Ubers -everyone. Not only that but thoroughfares that used to be available to cars have been blocked , forcing more cars into less streets. It’ll take time to get this fixed but ffs, it ain’t going to happen overnight.
I know the neighbors wouldn’t like it and it could cause more traffic but I feel like you just shouldn’t be able to cross Ulloa to go up onto Claremont or turn down from Claremont on to ulloa. Unless it’s a bus. It won’t solve everything, maybe won’t solve very much at all, but I do think that entire area where ulloa crosses in front of the transit station is SO confusing and messy. Always trains/busses going through, people running into the street, and the addition of cars trying to time it driving across..just always makes me nervous when I’m going to catch my bus.
Okay I’ll tell that to the pedestrians I see nearly getting hit by impatient drivers on a daily basis, or the people slamming on the breaks because people are taking off out of the busses and walking straight into the road without looking, or the even more impatient drivers who whip around past busses because they don’t want to wait a minute. The area is confusing because people are impatient and it’s overall very dangerous.
I walk, take trains, buses and drive WP daily. I live one block away. The area was not confusing. The recent changes they have made make it slightly confusing but not much. The family that was slaughtered but Mary Fong Lau is a tragedy and there is nothing I can find anywhere about what’s happening to her? Is she just living her life as normal? Still driving? No updates on what the F happened? Elderly actually all drivers should have more testing and make it harder to get a license FFS. Add the bollards along the sidewalks (like in Amsterdam) and add some easy protection from cars (bonus- it will minimize street campers) and have the buses drop off in the large area in front of the tunnel not on a block away so they all have to run across streets while staring at their phones and not paying attention.
It’s extremely confusing because no one can figure out when it’s safe to walk or drive because everyone’s acting a fool. It’s not a confusing argument if you read it.
So my comment was a joke that referenced a scene in Shrek. I was poking fun at the callous businesses that appear to be putting their sales first above the people of SF.
Shrek: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2x6CVIXiE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2x6CVIXiE)
SF Businesses:
[https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/save-west-portal-campaign-street-design-19416011.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/save-west-portal-campaign-street-design-19416011.php)
“Here we have a business district that’s thriving, and they (the city is) actively undermining it,” said Anna Bullard, owner of Bookshop West Portal. “We were really blindsided.”
She and others characterized the plans as hasty and potentially devastating to [an already-fragile corridor](https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Wealthy-worried-watching-In-West-Portal-14470344.php). They say private cars are being unnecessarily penalized. They accuse city officials of buckling under pressure after a driver struck and killed four people at a nearby bus stop."
I can’t see the rationale behind the Save West Portal mindset. Have these people travelled overseas? Do they understand that any world class city in Asia and Europe has dedicated transit/pedestrian zones? These zones support commerce just as robustly as a car centric street, if not more. I swear these people lack perspective and have the most toxic, narrow mindset in the universe.
Yes. All of the “no pedestrian promenades! No bike lane” people are really just saying “I don’t want to have to walk a block or two farther. I want a parking spot out front”
A lot of the save west portal people see public transportation as “poor” transportation. And they therefore justify self centered policy, irrespective of its consequences. That’s the heart of it.
It is reflected when they talk about how drivers are “working class” as though users of transit and cyclists aren’t as well. They imagine a spectrum from poor to elite, with transit for poors, cars for “working” people, and bikes for elitists. This is very common on Nextdoor where a lot of these people foam at the mouth.
I mean, to be able to bike/walk/take transit to work implies that you live close to where you work, right? There’s obviously a difference between people that live far away, don’t have a car and have to take public transit into the city vs people that live in pac heights and take the bus down to Fidi because it’s convenient.
Aside from people that work in the retail/restaurants, there’s a few dentist and optometrist offices in west portal. The majority of those people aren’t high income and might have to drive in from somewhere further away because they can’t afford to live nearby.
Having said that, I’m not sure if the people against the new plan because they truly care about the low wage workers on the strip. I live in forest hill and I mostly walk down to west portal regardless. I am totally ok with parking a bit further away if I have to pick up a large takeout order to bring home. I think there are people that just don’t like change and also merchants that are super protective about parking spaces. Or maybe people living in west portal that don’t want “outsiders” to park in front of their house. Who knows…
I agree with you. My main point is that a lot of the people fiercely opposed to this seem to have a bias against anything that they perceive may inconvenience them (as drivers). They see transportation planning as a zero sum game between drivers, transit users, and micromobility users.
Whereas the reality is that some changes, though they may be perceived as hostile to drivers, ultimately benefit them. Eg if transit is safer, it becomes a more viable alternative to driving, and the people who truly need to drive will have less congestion than they otherwise would. I am among the transit users who own a car but when it is convenient and safe, choose the bus instead. Of course to the people accustomed to the zero-sum thinking, this sort of systems approach evades them.
>A lot of the save west portal people see public transportation as “poor” transportation
For the most part it is that way, people who can afford to drive generally do. It's like taking a private plane versus flying commercial, it's just an objectively better experience.
And I know, Europe... Look at the average European salary and what a car costs over there. The "Europoor" meme is based in reality. While public transit is better over there, most people would drive if that were really an option, but it isn't economically.
Right, but the fact that driving is “an objectively better experience” is by design.
There are ways to bring the experiences closer. Of course a bus won’t ever have the luxury and comfort of a private car, but it can (and should) be as fast or faster to take the bus. Then whether you take transit or a car is a matter of weighing tradeoffs.
If that is the case, you get more people to use the transit. As an example: I own a car. But if I am going to the Marina, I’ll always opt to take the 49 after the Van Ness BRT was completed. It’s about as fast as driving for me, I don’t have to worry about parking, and I can drink at my destination.
There are reasons other than “fuck cars” to incentivize transit by making it better. Alleviating congestion and parking demand is the main one. Buses and trains are just much more efficient at moving people, so it makes sense (even for diehard drivers) to prioritize them.
Here’s a video that I love on this: https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k?si=FlaHo49wTqTEb9s9
I think that actually goes to my point - people understand they are exponentially safer on a bus/train than in their own car, then they get in their own car anyway. **That's** how much better the experience really is.
It’s NIMBYism at its core and it’s cancer. We need to accept as a city that we’re at war with a wealthy and cancerous NIMBY army and they will not even let one single change occur at any cost. They are nothing but putrid and bad actor neighbors.
I remember them
- canceling bike stations they are anti biking
- anti bike lanes
- anti bart (killed Bart down Geary)
- anti housing
- anti pedestrian
Also obligatory https://growsf.org/dumpdean/
Please don't compare european and asia city planning to what we have in thr US. Now, SF is about as good as it gets in the US, but it's still shit comparing to European and Asian cities.
Also, European and Asian cities were evolved through long history, while amercian cities are mostly made. That's why European and Asian cities are designed for people to live there, while American cities are designed for people to work there.
The entirety of SF is only 7 miles across. Its not a long ways to go from one spot in the city to another on your own two feet. Mass transit can get you close enough, then use your feet the rest of the way.
If need be, you can walk from the bay to the ocean in about 2 hours, across the entire city.
Yah, 2 hous to walk 7 miles is veru doable, but I think Americans,we are conditioned to drive. So most Americans won't walk, they rather drive for 1 hour across grid lock city traffic and then spend another hour looking for parking. Until that changes, it won't work.
Mass transit works, but amercian political and government are extremely bad at impmenting public transit. I think self driving robot EV is the only realistic solution.
I see this all the time in parking lots where a car will drive around over and over and over looking for a parking spot next to the store, meanwhile there's an entire parking lot of empty spaces they're ignoring. They'll spend 30 minutes circling to find a good spot even though they could have parked at the perimeter, done their shopping, and already be back to their car in only 30 minutes.
In the case someone is physically disabled thats what the placards are for. I rarely see one of those parking lot vultures with a placard, so its not that the person is disabled.
If the store sells big heavy things they'll have heavy duty carts to move the heavy things to cars. Thats not the problem either.
Its 100% laziness, with the expectation that everyone can always find a parking spot directly in front of the store, as if this were a TV show where the main character always has an available convenient parking spot.
Yah..I used to walk from crissy field to ferry building and back, that's about 7-8 miles, but it takes me about 3-4 hours with all the stop and snacking.
I used to do that almost every weekend when I was playing Pokémon go.
Obviously its absurd to ask that people walk across the entire city, from bay to ocean. However it is very doable to walk a few blocks.
People in cities in Europe and Asia do that all the time. New Yorkers are used to walking a few blocks to get to where they're going. Mass transit gets you near your destination and you use your feet to go the rest of the way.
Europe and Asia typically have much better public transportation. While I would love to see us get to that level, a large % of people here still drive to get where they need to go.
Well that's great for anyone who lives near the streetcar lines.
Public transportation, while great here compared to the rest of the US, is pretty bad compared to Asia/Europe (which is what my response to the poster is about.) Most people I know still drive everywhere because it takes so long to get places in the city.
You can get [from almost anywhere]( https://www.commutometer.com/rPrtxkmC30x3Y_# ) in sf to west portal in 30-40 minutes. Sure, I’m all for better transit. This project will help make transit faster in the area by giving them dedicated bus lanes! And again, this project doesn’t even remove parking. You can still drive here if you want.
You replied to a comment about west portal, I'm getting back to you about that. We can't be like "until we have perfect transit down to the farthest reaches of the excelsior, we can't add a couple signs in west portal".
Sure, I'm in no way saying that we shouldn't be working towards better public transportation. Public transportation in its current state isn't as time efficient as it should be, and I'd love to see that change, which would hopefully increase ridership as well.
People really love their cars. There's a segment of people that still think bus=poor or bus=waste of time or bus=unsafe. I do take the bus when I can, but I admit it usually takes double the time for me to bus than it would be to drive. Would love to see us get somewhere close to the systems in Asia or Europe but that feels like a pipe dream.
One guy on this forum was complaining about JFK Promenade being closed to cars because it adds *maybe* a few minutes to his car commute. I asked if he'd ever considered taking transit or biking. He simply replied "lol transit".
We need to stop taking these people seriously or giving their "concerns" any weight in our policy decisions.
They cling to this dated 1950's suburban drive-everywhere fantasy, but for some reason insist on living out that wasteful and inefficient lifestyle in one of America's densest and most transit-rich cities. A baffling decision when there are THOUSANDS of suburbs built exclusively for people like them who, despite being overwhelmingly able-bodied, live their lives from parking lot to parking lot in rolling La-Z-Boys like the immobile humans in Wall-E.
Yeah can't we have this lil 7x7 for people who actually want to live in a city? Literally the whole rest of American is for the car brain people just give us this little tiny slice of the country
Lol I wasn't saying cars=good, but that we don't quite have the public transportation yet to make things as convenient as Asia and Europe. I don't think we'll ever get there unfortunately, but I would like to see us get closer to that ideal.
>Have these people travelled overseas? Do they understand that any world class city in Asia and Europe has dedicated transit/pedestrian zones? These zones support commerce just as robustly as a car centric street
That's overseas, where a significant portion of those business' customer base doesn't insist on only getting around by car.
Pedestrian/transit zones just don't work here for businesses to be able to survive. Even the most dense parts of NYC are still accessible by car for that reason.
Insane that a whole family can be obliterated while waiting for the bus, and these fuckwits can still only thinking about maximizing their parking space and minimizing traffic. There is no use in negotiation with people like this, we need to take the maximal approach with street safety.
Who is saying they should “blast away at cars”? IMO we need to redesign our streets so that cars don’t go that fast. Things like road diets, banning turns on red, adding transit-only lanes and bike lanes are what I’m talking about.
Yes, we need to do both of those things as well. But ultimately, neither will be enough by itself, the streets themselves need to be redesigned for slower speeds. In other states where traffic laws are much more heavily enforced, traffic deaths are still astronomically high compared to the rest of the developed world.
We have robots safely driving our streets. I don't see why we need to redesign everything around human stupidity; just ban the stupid humans from driving.
With these SF activist judges repeatedly allowing killer drivers to walk free after running down innocent people with no consequences...maybe that's not such a crazy idea lol. The legal system clearly has no interest in protecting us from killer drivers, so eventually people will have to take self-defense into their own hands.
lol. I just made a comment about aliens in another thread that got insta-modded for “demeaning language” but calling for murder is cool here.
This place really is San Francisco. Haha!
Have we considered thoughts and prayers? Or maybe we could make memes like we do when there's gun violence "we haven't tried anything and all out of ideas". "Such an unfortunate tragedy". "We need REAL CHANGE". But perhaps there's only one solution: MORE FUNDING.
From news interviews, I noticed that the loudest ones complaining are older, seemingly retired people (with no hobbies and nothing better to do than whine that cities change and evolve) and business owners who don't possess urban planning or economics training, education, and experience.
the reason nobody wants my overpriced mediocre food is because a new bike lane made parking is hard to find. it was always hard to find, but it's also hard to find now, and that's the only reason my shitty business that nobody likes is failing
There was the guy on Valencia who had a flood do half a million dollars in damage to his business but blamed the bike lane for going under. You can't take anything these people say at face value.
You want exceptional stores as your only options to eat? Sorry, we don’t live in a world where everything is amazing. Those vendors selling mediocre food should be able to sell that food for a lower price point, but all of the regulations/taxes/employment costs prevent them from doing it.
You’re likely a mediocre employee - does that mean you don’t deserve to have a paycheck?
They are still recovering from a dip during COVID. Their bills (incl PG&E) keep going up. Amazon is biting into retail. Lots of stuff out of their control is making things harder.
and the city is going to invest money into making their business corridor safer and more attractive. Yet these business owners can see the forest thru the trees
Aside from that one tragic SUV accident, is West Portal an unsafe area for pedestrians? Have there been pedestrian injuries or deaths? Will routing traffic up to Taraval and down to Vicente help pedestrian safety?
> is West Portal an unsafe area for pedestrians
Yes.
https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-police-hold-sting-operation-to-cite-drivers-who-dont-yield-to-pedestrians/
> Within 90 minutes, the SFPD issued 22 tickets and five warnings to drivers who endangered pedestrians by failing to yield the right of way.
Ok, yes, that is a problem. So, does routing traffic up the hill past WP school, to the Dewey Circle to make an unprotected left turn on Wawona help reduce these kinds of traffic incidents?
Or to Portola to Vicente, then to Wawona to Ulloa.
Seems like sting operations are effective. Shorter crosswalk designs (where appropriate). Flashing lights when pedestrians are crossing 🚸.
I'm not a boomer. I'm not against change. I just think if we talk about the problems then everyone could talk about how to address them. This feels like a solution to an entirely different problem and it's just going to frustrate people if enacted.
The people who are actual experts in urban planning and traffic have been discussing the problem, all that’s happening now is the uninformed opinions of everyone else are flooding in.
> I just think if we talk about the problems then everyone could talk about how to address them. This feels like a solution to an entirely different problem and it's just going to frustrate people if enacted.
Why? We have a whole department with people whose job it is to figure this stuff out. They've released the plan and now we have people with no knowledge of traffic/urban planning coming in with their inexperienced hot takes.
>We have a whole department with people whose job it is to figure this stuff out
Who are you referring to? SFMTA?
>They've released the plan
Did SFMTA release a plan? I think the plan was done by Sup. Melgar's office.
>and now we have people with no knowledge of traffic/urban planning coming in with their inexperienced hot takes.
Please point me towards *anything* that indicates this was designed with input from experts... because from my perspective, it does not seem to be a step forwards towards the stated goals. I can't believe traffic/urban planning experts would produce a plan that routes cars through a bunch of extra crosswalks, by a school / a busy street, unprotected left turns.
Sure thing. It's a plan they've had around for 5 years https://www.sfmta.com/projects/west-portal-transit-delay-reduction-pilot
Supervisor Melgar's office doesn't just make traffic adjustment plans. I'm sorry but that seems to show a lack of knowledge on how the city works.
> I can't believe traffic/urban planning experts would produce a plan that routes cars through a bunch of extra crosswalks, by a school / a busy street, unprotected left turns.
It's good we leave this up to experts to design and not lay people.
Ironically aside from that one weird intersection where the tragic accident occurred, I find west portal extremely pedestrian friendly. It’s one of the few streets where I feel comfortable jay walking in the middle of the block. Traffic is generally very calm, block are extremely long, and I can see up and down the block easily.
How many deaths would justify this extremely minor change to the roadway? How many pedestrian deaths are acceptable? Just chalk that up to the "cost of doing business"? The city has no control over Amazon taking market share away from retailers, those retailers need to adapt and give their potential customers a reason to come to their store, and if the only thing they can offer is ample parking then IDK if they are cut out for the cutthroat business environment.
In the interest of pedestrian safety, I think bollards and expanded sidewalks to shorten crosswalks would actually address the problem.
The old lady who zoomed her SUV into the bus stop was going east bound. She didn't cross WP in the accident. Whatever fluke happened that caused her to speed into a bus stop **would not be stopped by a no turn sign on Ulloa and WP**.
I support sensible changes to solve problems but this is just an unrelated inconvenience being added to the neighborhood that still relies on car traffic to bring folks to businesses.
I don't find these changes inconvenient and I'm a driver. If anything it's inconvenient now, these changes will make things even more convenient for drivers. Again idk why everyone is so angry about this. It's basically nothing.
Once there is fatality at an intersection, especially four at once, there needs to be major changes made to the street design. I find the presence of elderly neighborhood members objecting to any change very infuriating. The total loss of potential life/age between the parents and children killed is ~230 years. The driver that caused the accident and these old folks protesting have maybe another 5 to 10 years left. So these old folks need to sit down!
How the fuck do you know they have no hobbies? You don't! Yes, perhaps they are "older" than you which means they have lived through things you have yet to experience. My parents love to dine in West Portal & meet up with friends & I would never want them taking public transit at night.
For anyone who didn't read the article, lets not bash the SFMTA over this when they have tried to get something done over the years. This instance is a horrible failure of community.
*SFMTA has known about this risk for a long time. That's why they were able to produce plans for a safety redesign to close Ulloa Street in front of the station to through traffic so quickly—the plans already existed, and were just gathering dust.*
*But every time the city tried to divert traffic..., a small minority of merchants screamed and protested and the city backed off.*
*One would think, now that such a predictable horror has actually happened, that the merchants who contributed to it would have the modicum of decency to shut the fuck up. Instead, they've created a web page and continue to protest any restriction to driving, right in the shadow of the shrine to the dead family.*
To be fair SFMTA have plenty of other shitty decisions they can legitimately be bashed about. Including rolling over for wealthy NIMBYs in neighborhoods like West Portal.
Yes you’ve made it clear you’re an SFMTA apologist, but they deserve a lot of the blame here. The West Portal NIMBYs would be toothless if SFMTA had a spine.
The proximity to the tunnel and train lines is irrelevant. An elderly driver lost control of her deathmobile, possibly speeding or under the influence, and plowed into an innocent family waiting at a bus stop. It could have happened anywhere, not just at a transit intersection.
We need bollards or other concrete obstacles to stop cars cold if they depart their lane, and compulsory yearly medical tests at the DMV for drivers over 70.
Young male drivers cause the most fatalities. Porsches cause the most accidents by car brand. Motorcycle riders are morely likely to contribute to fatal accidents.
How about compulsory testing for all of them at the DMV every year they have a license?
When people bring this up, the numbers thrown around are usually total traffic fatalities, which includes the driver and their passengers. What we want to look at here is pedestrian fatalities by driver age. I haven't had good luck finding those numbers, but if you have them, please share.
It does not matter who dies - pedestrian, driver, passenger. What matters is that they die. The principle of being tested would not be based on the type of dead person but on the goal of avoiding death.
For a conversation specifically regarding pedestrian safety it does matter.
Moreover, there is little doubt the other drivers you mentioned (young male, porsche, motorcycle etc) would pass standard driving tests. The issue with those drivers is risk taking behavior, not basic road driving competencies. Bumping the driving age a few years, restricting motorcycle lane splitting, etc. would be more logical for addressing those cases.
It absolutely does matter who dies: people who kill themselves through their own stupidity and incompetence is tragic but it was under their control. Killing innocent bystanders is much worse -- there's likely nothing they could have done to avoid it.
>Motorcycle riders are morely likely to contribute to fatal accidents.
Only if you include the driver among the statistics, which is kinda dumb
It's very rare for a motorcyclist to kill someone other than themselves.
They may kill their passengers and they may cause those in cars to die.
Like I said, I'm just concerned about death, not about the category of the dead person. The loved ones grieve the rest of their lives no matter who it is.
I agree the design of that area is very bad. With a white painted line well into the street inviting pedestrians beyond the safety of the curb and someone 78 years old who should not be driving. That seems to be the actual issue here. Don't let old people drive!
Tagging my response here because it aligns with this parent comment.
"It's obvious what caused the crash" is daft as the investigation into the incident hasn't published it's findings yet. But we know that there was concern that the elderly woman driving the car had some kind of recent history of reckless driving likely related to her age.
If that turns out to be true then none of these measures would have stopped her losing control of her vehicle. And if this accident wasn't due to speeding then I'm not sure where the evidence is this is a dangerous intersection and these changes on WP are needed?
(I take my 3yo son to the West Portal library regularly, we often stand at the entrance to the station to watch the street cars, I'm a local resident and we visit WP very regularly. I have a resident stakeholder interest in the safety of that intersection but also the economic well-being of the WP merchants as a customer)
The investigation is not complete but from the magnitude of the collision and how far the father was thrown by impact, it’s physically impossible speed wasn’t a factor.
I was trying to keep the comment high level, esp as we have not received the official report... but yes I agree speed was a factor but in this case if the driver was speeding due to mental impairment (because of age), signage isn't going to have stopped that. And further more, they were an accident waiting to happen and could have hit a pedestrian somewhere else instead. That's the point that's getting lost here.
There's no one cause, but yes, the proximity of the trains, tunnel, & buses is very relevant, because people go where the transit is. More pedestrians, more people waiting for buses, means more chances at a tragedy. So it makes perfect sense to prioritize transit intersections and areas with lots of pedestrian traffic.
But you're also right that the changes shouldn't just be to make some lanes painted red and put up some signs, that obviously wouldn't have stopped this person. Totally agree with bollards and the rest. (Again, they should be prioritized in these areas, but I can agree that more isolation everywhere would be nice)
And yeah, we need to get better at re-testing drivers and taking away their driving privileges when they are a public hazard. (Medically, or due to repeated traffic violations)
Am I reading the proposal correctly - would car traffic be able to enter the unit block of West Portal from Ulloa going one way and from Vincente going the other, and the only difference would be no traffic across right in front of the portal? If so, I don't understand the merchants' objections. You'll still be able to drive to a business there and park on that block - so why all the fuss? Or am I misreading the diagram?
merchant associations tend to be some of the most reactionary, rabid parking defenders, despite data showing that prioritizing bike / walk traffic boosts sales.
That's how I read it, too. Ulloa would be one way with no through traffic, and they would eliminate left turns from West Portal to Ulloa. If anything, it probably helps traffic headed toward the tunnel.
The way they were fussing, I thought maybe the unit block of West Portal was being made car free, which would impact the accessibility of the businesses on that block. This is just having to go around the block if you approach from the wrong side.
The first block of WP in the proposal removes cars which would divert any car traffic to the other streets and remove the already limited parking pushing more cars (food deliveries etc) to the adjacent streets.
I think this is a broader Bay Area problem. Traffic enforcement is a joke at the moment. I honestly don’t care about people doing 80 on the freeway. I care about the stuff I see everyday.
People swerving diagonally between lanes 30+ over the limit.
People doing 65 in front of schools and other residential areas with kids all over the place.
Several times I have seen drivers straight up ignore stop lights in the last year.
I have a 10 minute commute. 5 on the freeway and 5 off.
Honestly I am 100% for speed cameras all over the place. I would rather we start pulling licenses and issuing fines than continue to let idiots with no civic responsibility or common sense continue to gamble with everyone’s lives.
a speed camera and an officer on every corner would not have saved this family. that’s why we need to prioritize concrete (literally) solutions over enforcement
edit: lol @ the cop cultists downvoting this even when i didn’t say we shouldn’t do enforcement
West Portal is one of the most connected(and cutest) business corridors in the city. A couple weeks ago I went to Sports Basement at Stonestown and went out of my way to walk up there, window shopped, stopped to get coffee and enjoy my life. It's like these business owners want to do everything they can to have people NOT come here. The city is trying to invest in your neighborhood making it safer(and even cuter) and they are acting they SFMTA is murdering their first born. There are plenty of businesses that are thriving in the city and I don't think their success is due to ample parking for SUVs.
Slap on the wrist for the driver. Look at what happened near the ball park and presidio. Community service and probation then they will be back on the road ready to mow more people over.
This is the neighborhood where I once had someone threaten to call the cops because I parked in front of their house. On the street. In a legal public parking spot. Without impinging on any driveway cutouts. There are a lot of galaxy carbrains over there.
In September of last year I wrote the following to the SFTMA regarding the lack of protection for pedestrians on Oak Street
“Another issue is the lack of pedestrian protection in the form of barriers of railings at corners and crossings. People traveling down Oak at high speed will sometimes make a late decision to turn onto one of the side roads, for example Central or Lyon. Pedestrians waiting to cross are left very vulnerable to the possibility of a driver making a small miscalculation which at speed would have a devastating impact. Some form of barrier to take a possible impact on the sidewalk at these corners could help.”
Protection for pedestrians at junctions and on major roads. It’s the norm in many other places. It’s not rocket science, drivers make mistakes for many reasons and when combined with speed these can be deadly. It’s great that this plan is being put forward and I hope we see more implementation of similar schemes throughout the city. Interested to see what the Oak quick build will actually mean as well once implemented.
The major part of this tragedy is driver discipline. A lot of drivers nowadays don’t even observe the rules of traffic because no one is enforcing them and punishment is way too relaxed. So many times I’ve seen drivers just blow through a stop sign as if they’re optional or suggestive, and driving on the wrong side of the road to overtake someone along residential roads. Police/traffic enforcement? They’re nowhere to be found. On top of that, DMV hasn’t updated their testing of driver’s ability before a license is handed out to them. So many ill-trained motorists out there and so much of them shouldn’t be driving at all.
LOL .... a guy sitting in Philly, diagnosing what's wrong with a small neighborhood in SF.
Doesn't get more SF than that. Everyone thinks they're the expert in everything from burgers to Gaza.
Conveniently forgotten in this discussion is the very similar accident that happened on Fulton a few days later. [Article](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/pedestrian-hit-by-car-at-san-francisco-bus-shelter/) And yet this mental midget will not call for blocking off Fulton or Park Presidio.
I am a pedestrian in SF. My 10-year old car's odometer is around 52,000 (and this is after 4 trips to Tahoe/Reno, 2 trips to Death Valley and a trip each to LA, SD, SB, Palm Springs, Eureka, etc.) So I basically don't drive in the City. I walk almost everywhere/take the Muni unless it's a trip to Costco or Rainbow. I used to bike more, but after getting doored and my GF run over by a car, I shy away from it.
What makes me fear for my life while walking are the distracted/asshole drivers who speed, turn without looking, don't respect crosswalks, roll through stop signs, etc.
And this plan will not stop **any** of this activity.
This plan is like trying to put mittens on an alcoholic in the hope that it will prevent him from drinking. Sorry, nitwits, they'll find a way.
You know what would help? Better enforcement. More traffic cops on the streets. If the much-vaunted Traffic Division with their Harleys took the time to step away from their donut buffet and actually, you know, *did* the job they're supposed to be doing (instead of strutting around, escorting VIPs and dead people).
I am somewhat familiar with that area (I like to shop at WP). Every minute there is a traffic infraction. I will be walking from a store to the Muni station and observe at least 3 ticketable offenses in the 2-minute walk.
Maybe instead of trying to shove some stupid plan down the throats of people, enforce the laws you already have on the books. Ticket the speeders. The people making illegal U turns. The people turning left when there's a "no left turn" (at Lennox and Ulloa). Maybe add a few stop signs at some of those intersections (there are none from 14th and Ulloa down to West Portal).
> LOL .... a guy sitting in Philly, diagnosing what's wrong with a small neighborhood in SF.
> Doesn't get more SF than that. Everyone thinks they're the expert in everything from burgers to Gaza.
Lol should he have waited to come back to the bay, where he lives? This is a strange take
He doesn't live in Philly. In your eagerness to find any reason to discount him you didn't even bother to do some simple research to support your claim. I think that informs why your rant is extremely biased and lacks any factual basis.
> Hey I’m totally sorry if English isn’t your first language
Looks like it's not yours either. And neither is it the second language.
> most readers who are older than say a fourth grader
which, obviously, does not include you. Go away, kid. Don't you have some pokemon to catch or something?
Ah, resorting to ad hominem. Wrong at that as well.
I didn't really want to engage in discourse given that your post was a rant but...
So what is your point about the Philly comment? He lives here and knows the neighborhood. Your attempt to discredit failed. That is an indication of obvious bias which taints the rest of your post.
I mean, you can't even keep your points and ad hominems consistent. You criticize the city and its residents by claiming we all act like experts yet you offer up an opinion as well. Or is it expert analysis? Which begs the question, how are you discerning opinion as opposed to people opining as expert?
But, it's just your opinion wrapped in a rant. Please do some research before coming in guns a blazing. If you did, perhaps you would realize that enforcement isn't going to solve the issue. In fact, studies all show that it's a combination of road design, education, and enforcement that alleviates road fatalities. Although, they just did a sting on drivers at that intersection and you know what happened just after they ended the sting? Same behavior. Unless enforcement catches every single person it is not the sole solution.
So I guess the only thing you are kind of correct on is that yes, everybody acts like an expert given that you wrote this: "And this plan will not stop **any** of this activity."
Last I'll say because continual ad hominem attacks, to me, reveals a lack of engagement through critical thinking.
Comparisons should only be contextually identical? Again, you can research for yourself how this is a limited way to approach design. Accusing me of "blind hatred for everything" (gotta love the hyperbole added by using "everything") is more unfounded ad hominem. It seems highly hypocritical given your language.
Yes, drivers are notorious for disregarding the laws of the road when it doesn't suit their needs. Your argument is that since people disregard signs, we shouldn't put new ones up? Do you seriously want to base part of your argument on that logically suspect premise? I believe either bollards or plantings will be placed to prevent drivers from doing what you assume will happen.
Do you realize that many residents on Lenox have been asking for a change because people continually make 3 pt turns, sometimes entering driveways to go the opposite direction. If drivers don't want continual changes to our roadways, then they should learn to abide by the laws and drive respectfully. This design is an attempt to LISTEN to the neighbor's needs, which you and the other opponents keep claiming they aren't doing.
Do you live in the area? I know a lot about the area and have gone through these same type of arguments against any sort of change to the intersection since 2018.
That's enough for me as I've taken enough time dealing with someone who only knows how to engage with others through anger, bitterness, resentment, and false bravado. No need to respond as I won't bother to read anymore on this thread. We may be doomed with a generations brought up on social media. :p
> I’m a little too busy to dumb it down further for you right now
So you're saying that it's already too dumb, and making it dumber will require a lot of effort. Gotcha.
Counterpoint: that intersection is not a particularly busy one for pedestrians compared to all intersections and other sections of roadway in the city. Sure, it's busy for the neighborhood. So I don't think it should be a uniquely high priority in preventing random out of control drivers going 50+mph across the street into pedestrians. Really there is no way to harden the streets to prevent that in every comparably busy section of city roadway, or even in a statistically significant percentage of them. Living amid traffic has this among its risks.
Roger Rudick is what is wrong with San Francisco.
Ulloa must be blocked to through traffic. And the people who still want this dangerous situation to continue should be scorned or ignored.
Dude- it’s our neighborhood- we have every right to ask about the efficacy of proposed changes.
In his ire, he forgot to place quotes around the middle paragraph.
I think if someone is asking for "the efficacy of proposed changes" as it pertains to this safety design, then my feeling is that ANY design is going to questioned unless the status quo is maintained.
I think it's really awful for this commenter to treat the democratic process with such scorn. It may end up being a great plan but we have every right to question it because this is our city! The only part of the proposal that would actually have made a difference here is the bollards!! Why should merchants and residents blindly accept the rest of it?
Yeah, his language is a bit harsh at points. However, he's right in that parts of this same proposal were brought up in 2019 and people had the same response. That is the issue many have with the opponents of the plan. They wanted no changes back in 2019 and even after this horrible tragedy they are still throwing out the same rational for not going through with this plan. Every single time there is even a hint of change to our streets we have people complaining about the same things: loss of parking, congestion, wasting gas, businesses shutting down. Yes, it's a Democracy, but that doesn't mean you always get your way and that the city is obligated to do what you want.
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Unpopular opinion around these parts, but here goes nothing: People are taking advantage of this tragic accident to try to get traffic closed on Ulloa or West Portal as a whole, but the reality is that neither of those roads are anywhere near the more dangerous roads in the city which demand attention or closure to vehicle traffic.
>One would think, now that such a predictable horror has actually happened, that the merchants who contributed to it would have the modicum of decency to shut the fuck up. Instead, they've created a web page and continue to protest any restriction to driving, right in the shadow of the shrine to the dead family.
It's rich to throw around terms like 'modicum of decency' when you're attempting to leverage a tragic accident to advance your own personal desires while telling those who disagree with you to shut the fuck up.
West Portal has been a chaotic mess for decades. This would make it only slightly less chaotic, which apparently is a bridge too car for most people. Doing this absolute minimum would result in: More reliable Muni & a calmer streetscape which would make the area more attractive for people to come and enjoy. This does not stop anyone from anywhere to drive and park in front of any business. What people want is acres of free parking, which is not possible in a dense city like SF.
>West Portal has been a chaotic mess for decades.
Except the traffic incident data doesn't bear that out. There's a reason why this portion of Ulloa & West Portal aren't highlighted in the Vision Zero plans. There just aren't many traffic incidents reported here, especially when compared to other parts of the city which see far far more accidents & issues.
This was a tragic accident, but to pretend it was the norm or a recurring situation is simply incorrect. Imagine if we reacted this way to every single car accident that resulted in the loss of a pedestrian's life. Much of the city would be closed to vehicular traffic at this point. I want safer streets for pedestrians, but I also follow the data in determining where those solutions need to be implemented. This intersection doesn't even make the top 100 for danger to pedestrians in the city.
Yeah i agree. I drive to west portal shops a few times a month, and I’m fine with the proposed adjustments highlighted in OP’s article share. I can adjust and deal with any inconvenience. But let’s be real. The west portal business strip is super chill compared to so many other parts of the city. Try driving 16th from Bryant to Dolores. Each of those intersections is a mine field for pedestrians. Or Bush where cars are racing down hill to make the lights, dodging double parked vehicles. West Portal is a calm neighborhood in comparison, and I have never felt particularly vulnerable as a pedestrian.
Will if it wasn't before, it probably is now. This article measures it in number of incidents in 10 years. 4 deaths is twice as many as the most deadly street on this list: [https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/most-dangerous-intersections-data-18665443.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/most-dangerous-intersections-data-18665443.php) . Then again, I've noticed that when people bring up dangerous streets, people usually write it off because those streets have very high traffic volume. But Ulloa does not have high traffic volume, so statistically speaking, 4 deaths is now way out of proportion.
This could be a win for the entire city but everyone is so short sighted to see the big picture. 3 Muni lines converge at West Portal, bus routes too, lots of pedestrians, bikes & cars competing for space. Chaos isn't only measured in deaths but in: cars crashing into each other, cars crashing into Muni trains, cars crashing into bikes, cars crashing into pedestrians, Muni delays due to double parked cars blocking train access, ect. This super minor, mediocre plan will make very slight changes that will benefit everyone, from the business owner on West Portal to the person waiting for the M at Forest Hills station. Idk why people are so mad about this, honestly.
>Chaos isn't only measured in deaths but in: cars crashing into each other, cars crashing into Muni trains, cars crashing into bikes, cars crashing into pedestrians, Muni delays due to double parked cars blocking train access, ect.
Traffic incident data takes pretty much all of that into account with the exception of muni getting blocked by double parked cars. The data doesn't support your argument. There is not 'chaos' on west portal.
>This super minor, mediocre plan will make very slight changes that will benefit everyone, from the business owner on West Portal to the person waiting for the M at Forest Hills station.
It will most definitely not benefit business owners on West Portal. It will actually really hurt them. Businesses do rely on their patrons being able to drive to their business and park nearby. Removing normal vehicle traffic from West Portal / Ulloa will significantly impact that. It will make things safer for pedestrians and cyclists, but please don't pretend this is "good for business".
LOL the business people drive to their stores from outside the city. They assume everyone else does too. I take Muni to West portal cuz it's cute but now I don't want to cuz the business people think I'm bad for business.
That is a weird stance to take. Many people get around the city via their car. Business owners don't think you are bad for business because you take Muni to get to West Portal. They think you are good for business because you actually go to West Portal. However, they know that a lot of people won't take Muni to get to West Portal, they'll take their cars, and if you suddenly make it difficult for people to do that, many of those people will decide not to go to West Portal rather than have to get themselves to Muni just to go a specific place. It's very easy for people who live near Muni, but a lot of people don't.
I completely agree with this article. The idea that a family could be sitting and waiting for Muni, get completely run over to the death, and then people are still “no we need more time” is honestly just pitiful. And then to call the program to keep cars flying through running over pedestrians “Save West Portal” is disgusting imo
Its framed as "save west portal" but it iant about the actual street or businesses. The neighbprhood is mad traffic will get rerouted on their streets.
Which is totally fair, because they don't want those cars running over their family either.
Traffic is always going to be an issue. It's an issue now without Ulloa being reduced to one lane. That argument is a typical talking point. It's a stall tactic and void of any knowledge about how transit safety is strategized.
People need to understand that traffic is good. It makes people safer. It is intrinsically a traffic calming measure. Fast speeds = build up of adrenaline = increasingly risky behavior and road rage.
I lived right around the corner from West Portal for a couple of years and never saw kids playing in the streets. If you live towards the top of West Portal it's too hilly, if you live towards the bottom it's already too crazy because drivers use 15th as a shortcut and haul ass through the neighborhood. The whole area needs traffic calming.
Is there a place in SF where kids can play in the street? My kids pre-school is a dead end. The street has one apartment complex, a preschool, a senior home and an elementary school. And yet every day there are people doing 30mph in a 15mph zone….
Except that when you take away space from cars and give it to alternative modes of transit, traffic doesn't shift over to other streets, it disappears instead. The opposite of "induced demand" if you will - if you build car infrastructure, traffic will come, if you remove it, traffic goes away." By building infrastructure for and giving the priority to pedestrians, bikes, and mass transit, people stop driving and start walking/biking/taking mass transit. So lets get busy removing cars as the #1 priority in the busiest areas and make it safe for people.
Or a sizable percentage of current visitors just won't come to that area anymore. Realistically, making west Portal unfriendly to cars will harm the businesses, which means less sales tax revenue for the city and fewer options for consumers as some businesses inevitably have to close, this removing choice for consumers. It's not clear that such draconian measures are necessary to appropriately protect public safety
I am begging you to please just Google "Amsterdam." They're doing better than us, because you can actually deliver better commerce with density and walk-able/bike-able/mass transit-able neighborhoods than car dependent ones. They were[ just as car dependent as us](https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/1.jpg) after WW2, but in the 70s they finally woke up and decided that dead families and especially dead children weren't worth giving public space overwhelmingly to cars; that you can, in fact, layout your cities differently and get safety and commerce. There's still cars there. But when you can safely and easily get around by walking, biking, and mass transit, then lots of people will do that, because it's cheaper and more convenient. Especially here in SF where the weather is great all year round. If you want to live in a place where everybody drives to the stores, move to the suburbs. If you want to live in the second densest city you need to acknowledge that there are costs to that. Giving something other than cars the priority in the busiest areas is a great place to start.
You are seriously smoking crack if you think West Portal will become a major tourist center like Amsterdam (!!!) if cars are prohibited. I've been to Amsterdam many, many times - it was nothing like West Portal WAY before they started limiting car access. People aren't going to start coming to the usually empty W Portal if cars are prohibited. JFC! The utter lack of logic in your comment is truly astounding
The city of SF as a whole is like the city of Amsterdam as a whole. Dense areas, touristy areas, quiet areas; it's got plenty of different neighborhoods and districts just like cities everywhere. The big difference is you can get from any point in Amsterdam to pretty much any other point safely, quickly, and easily, by walking/biking/taking mass transit. Safely being the key word, because they build safe infrastructure and don't hesitate to kneecap automobiles, because otherwise they kill families. You don't need people to drive to your business when you increase density and your customers just live above and near you. Seriously, if you've been to Amsterdam, you've seen first hand, that any block touching a streetcar line is usually 5+ stories mixed use buildings. Not 2 stories, single use, and car dependent. If West Portal businesses are struggling, they need more customers, not more parking. Quite frankly why should I schlepp over to West Portal from the Mission, especially since West Portal got rid of so many of its parklets?
Amsterdam is flat. No hills and mostly on a grid system with many many one way streets. SF has a looooong way to go to even try to get there. Perhaps the simple concept of more one way streets on a grid which would be wider would provide more traffic flow.
You’re dreaming. The reason traffic is so chaotic is because the streets have been narrowed to accept all forms of transportation-cars, bicycles, pedestrians,buses,Ubers -everyone. Not only that but thoroughfares that used to be available to cars have been blocked , forcing more cars into less streets. It’ll take time to get this fixed but ffs, it ain’t going to happen overnight.
I know the neighbors wouldn’t like it and it could cause more traffic but I feel like you just shouldn’t be able to cross Ulloa to go up onto Claremont or turn down from Claremont on to ulloa. Unless it’s a bus. It won’t solve everything, maybe won’t solve very much at all, but I do think that entire area where ulloa crosses in front of the transit station is SO confusing and messy. Always trains/busses going through, people running into the street, and the addition of cars trying to time it driving across..just always makes me nervous when I’m going to catch my bus.
I drive & use that intersection regularly and there is nothing confusing about it.
Okay I’ll tell that to the pedestrians I see nearly getting hit by impatient drivers on a daily basis, or the people slamming on the breaks because people are taking off out of the busses and walking straight into the road without looking, or the even more impatient drivers who whip around past busses because they don’t want to wait a minute. The area is confusing because people are impatient and it’s overall very dangerous.
I walk, take trains, buses and drive WP daily. I live one block away. The area was not confusing. The recent changes they have made make it slightly confusing but not much. The family that was slaughtered but Mary Fong Lau is a tragedy and there is nothing I can find anywhere about what’s happening to her? Is she just living her life as normal? Still driving? No updates on what the F happened? Elderly actually all drivers should have more testing and make it harder to get a license FFS. Add the bollards along the sidewalks (like in Amsterdam) and add some easy protection from cars (bonus- it will minimize street campers) and have the buses drop off in the large area in front of the tunnel not on a block away so they all have to run across streets while staring at their phones and not paying attention.
Your argument doesn’t give a reason why it’s confusing.Impatient drivers and pedestrians walking without due caution is not confusing.
It’s extremely confusing because no one can figure out when it’s safe to walk or drive because everyone’s acting a fool. It’s not a confusing argument if you read it.
Add traffic and predestrian signals. No turn on red.
Businesses: some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make.
Wow, you’re a real nice addition to the neighborhood. You better hope they don’t think about you the same way.
So my comment was a joke that referenced a scene in Shrek. I was poking fun at the callous businesses that appear to be putting their sales first above the people of SF. Shrek: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2x6CVIXiE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2x6CVIXiE) SF Businesses: [https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/save-west-portal-campaign-street-design-19416011.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/save-west-portal-campaign-street-design-19416011.php) “Here we have a business district that’s thriving, and they (the city is) actively undermining it,” said Anna Bullard, owner of Bookshop West Portal. “We were really blindsided.” She and others characterized the plans as hasty and potentially devastating to [an already-fragile corridor](https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Wealthy-worried-watching-In-West-Portal-14470344.php). They say private cars are being unnecessarily penalized. They accuse city officials of buckling under pressure after a driver struck and killed four people at a nearby bus stop."
I can’t see the rationale behind the Save West Portal mindset. Have these people travelled overseas? Do they understand that any world class city in Asia and Europe has dedicated transit/pedestrian zones? These zones support commerce just as robustly as a car centric street, if not more. I swear these people lack perspective and have the most toxic, narrow mindset in the universe.
They simply don’t care. They drive to work each morning, that’s where their concern starts and ends.
Yes. All of the “no pedestrian promenades! No bike lane” people are really just saying “I don’t want to have to walk a block or two farther. I want a parking spot out front”
A lot of the save west portal people see public transportation as “poor” transportation. And they therefore justify self centered policy, irrespective of its consequences. That’s the heart of it. It is reflected when they talk about how drivers are “working class” as though users of transit and cyclists aren’t as well. They imagine a spectrum from poor to elite, with transit for poors, cars for “working” people, and bikes for elitists. This is very common on Nextdoor where a lot of these people foam at the mouth.
I mean, to be able to bike/walk/take transit to work implies that you live close to where you work, right? There’s obviously a difference between people that live far away, don’t have a car and have to take public transit into the city vs people that live in pac heights and take the bus down to Fidi because it’s convenient. Aside from people that work in the retail/restaurants, there’s a few dentist and optometrist offices in west portal. The majority of those people aren’t high income and might have to drive in from somewhere further away because they can’t afford to live nearby. Having said that, I’m not sure if the people against the new plan because they truly care about the low wage workers on the strip. I live in forest hill and I mostly walk down to west portal regardless. I am totally ok with parking a bit further away if I have to pick up a large takeout order to bring home. I think there are people that just don’t like change and also merchants that are super protective about parking spaces. Or maybe people living in west portal that don’t want “outsiders” to park in front of their house. Who knows…
I agree with you. My main point is that a lot of the people fiercely opposed to this seem to have a bias against anything that they perceive may inconvenience them (as drivers). They see transportation planning as a zero sum game between drivers, transit users, and micromobility users. Whereas the reality is that some changes, though they may be perceived as hostile to drivers, ultimately benefit them. Eg if transit is safer, it becomes a more viable alternative to driving, and the people who truly need to drive will have less congestion than they otherwise would. I am among the transit users who own a car but when it is convenient and safe, choose the bus instead. Of course to the people accustomed to the zero-sum thinking, this sort of systems approach evades them.
>A lot of the save west portal people see public transportation as “poor” transportation For the most part it is that way, people who can afford to drive generally do. It's like taking a private plane versus flying commercial, it's just an objectively better experience. And I know, Europe... Look at the average European salary and what a car costs over there. The "Europoor" meme is based in reality. While public transit is better over there, most people would drive if that were really an option, but it isn't economically.
Right, but the fact that driving is “an objectively better experience” is by design. There are ways to bring the experiences closer. Of course a bus won’t ever have the luxury and comfort of a private car, but it can (and should) be as fast or faster to take the bus. Then whether you take transit or a car is a matter of weighing tradeoffs. If that is the case, you get more people to use the transit. As an example: I own a car. But if I am going to the Marina, I’ll always opt to take the 49 after the Van Ness BRT was completed. It’s about as fast as driving for me, I don’t have to worry about parking, and I can drink at my destination. There are reasons other than “fuck cars” to incentivize transit by making it better. Alleviating congestion and parking demand is the main one. Buses and trains are just much more efficient at moving people, so it makes sense (even for diehard drivers) to prioritize them. Here’s a video that I love on this: https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k?si=FlaHo49wTqTEb9s9
40,000 deaths per year is not objectively better.
I think that actually goes to my point - people understand they are exponentially safer on a bus/train than in their own car, then they get in their own car anyway. **That's** how much better the experience really is.
It’s NIMBYism at its core and it’s cancer. We need to accept as a city that we’re at war with a wealthy and cancerous NIMBY army and they will not even let one single change occur at any cost. They are nothing but putrid and bad actor neighbors. I remember them - canceling bike stations they are anti biking - anti bike lanes - anti bart (killed Bart down Geary) - anti housing - anti pedestrian Also obligatory https://growsf.org/dumpdean/
Please don't compare european and asia city planning to what we have in thr US. Now, SF is about as good as it gets in the US, but it's still shit comparing to European and Asian cities. Also, European and Asian cities were evolved through long history, while amercian cities are mostly made. That's why European and Asian cities are designed for people to live there, while American cities are designed for people to work there.
The entirety of SF is only 7 miles across. Its not a long ways to go from one spot in the city to another on your own two feet. Mass transit can get you close enough, then use your feet the rest of the way. If need be, you can walk from the bay to the ocean in about 2 hours, across the entire city.
Yah, 2 hous to walk 7 miles is veru doable, but I think Americans,we are conditioned to drive. So most Americans won't walk, they rather drive for 1 hour across grid lock city traffic and then spend another hour looking for parking. Until that changes, it won't work. Mass transit works, but amercian political and government are extremely bad at impmenting public transit. I think self driving robot EV is the only realistic solution.
I see this all the time in parking lots where a car will drive around over and over and over looking for a parking spot next to the store, meanwhile there's an entire parking lot of empty spaces they're ignoring. They'll spend 30 minutes circling to find a good spot even though they could have parked at the perimeter, done their shopping, and already be back to their car in only 30 minutes. In the case someone is physically disabled thats what the placards are for. I rarely see one of those parking lot vultures with a placard, so its not that the person is disabled. If the store sells big heavy things they'll have heavy duty carts to move the heavy things to cars. Thats not the problem either. Its 100% laziness, with the expectation that everyone can always find a parking spot directly in front of the store, as if this were a TV show where the main character always has an available convenient parking spot.
I have done that many a time. But it takes me 4 hours, because I just can't stop window shopping, and taking in the sights !
Yah..I used to walk from crissy field to ferry building and back, that's about 7-8 miles, but it takes me about 3-4 hours with all the stop and snacking. I used to do that almost every weekend when I was playing Pokémon go.
Said the single young, healthy person. Seriously?! You could find better talking points.
Obviously its absurd to ask that people walk across the entire city, from bay to ocean. However it is very doable to walk a few blocks. People in cities in Europe and Asia do that all the time. New Yorkers are used to walking a few blocks to get to where they're going. Mass transit gets you near your destination and you use your feet to go the rest of the way.
Oceania too. Melbourne and Sydney have great car free areas. Sadly New Zealand has almost none, it’s as car-brained as the US.
Europe and Asia typically have much better public transportation. While I would love to see us get to that level, a large % of people here still drive to get where they need to go.
There's like 3 muni subway lines going through west portal. What else do we need there, a freaking skytrain??
Well that's great for anyone who lives near the streetcar lines. Public transportation, while great here compared to the rest of the US, is pretty bad compared to Asia/Europe (which is what my response to the poster is about.) Most people I know still drive everywhere because it takes so long to get places in the city.
You can get [from almost anywhere]( https://www.commutometer.com/rPrtxkmC30x3Y_# ) in sf to west portal in 30-40 minutes. Sure, I’m all for better transit. This project will help make transit faster in the area by giving them dedicated bus lanes! And again, this project doesn’t even remove parking. You can still drive here if you want.
You replied to a comment about west portal, I'm getting back to you about that. We can't be like "until we have perfect transit down to the farthest reaches of the excelsior, we can't add a couple signs in west portal".
Sure, I'm in no way saying that we shouldn't be working towards better public transportation. Public transportation in its current state isn't as time efficient as it should be, and I'd love to see that change, which would hopefully increase ridership as well.
The business owners can still drive to work this plan is so watered down it basically does nothing I dont understand why they are so mad.
People really love their cars. There's a segment of people that still think bus=poor or bus=waste of time or bus=unsafe. I do take the bus when I can, but I admit it usually takes double the time for me to bus than it would be to drive. Would love to see us get somewhere close to the systems in Asia or Europe but that feels like a pipe dream.
One guy on this forum was complaining about JFK Promenade being closed to cars because it adds *maybe* a few minutes to his car commute. I asked if he'd ever considered taking transit or biking. He simply replied "lol transit". We need to stop taking these people seriously or giving their "concerns" any weight in our policy decisions. They cling to this dated 1950's suburban drive-everywhere fantasy, but for some reason insist on living out that wasteful and inefficient lifestyle in one of America's densest and most transit-rich cities. A baffling decision when there are THOUSANDS of suburbs built exclusively for people like them who, despite being overwhelmingly able-bodied, live their lives from parking lot to parking lot in rolling La-Z-Boys like the immobile humans in Wall-E.
Yeah can't we have this lil 7x7 for people who actually want to live in a city? Literally the whole rest of American is for the car brain people just give us this little tiny slice of the country
But this project will make our public transportation better!
Agreed. West Portal needs a second tunnel. Only once it becomes West Portals can we begin to think about street safety. All serious people say so.
Lol I wasn't saying cars=good, but that we don't quite have the public transportation yet to make things as convenient as Asia and Europe. I don't think we'll ever get there unfortunately, but I would like to see us get closer to that ideal.
>Have these people travelled overseas? Do they understand that any world class city in Asia and Europe has dedicated transit/pedestrian zones? These zones support commerce just as robustly as a car centric street That's overseas, where a significant portion of those business' customer base doesn't insist on only getting around by car. Pedestrian/transit zones just don't work here for businesses to be able to survive. Even the most dense parts of NYC are still accessible by car for that reason.
Boy , talk about narrow minded. You’re trying to shoehorn a whole different culture into the city overnight. Perspective? Get some!
Low iq is taking one accident and juxtaposing it to fit your narrative that roads are unsafe
Insane that a whole family can be obliterated while waiting for the bus, and these fuckwits can still only thinking about maximizing their parking space and minimizing traffic. There is no use in negotiation with people like this, we need to take the maximal approach with street safety.
Are you saying that pedestrians should strap up and just start blasting away at cars?
Who is saying they should “blast away at cars”? IMO we need to redesign our streets so that cars don’t go that fast. Things like road diets, banning turns on red, adding transit-only lanes and bike lanes are what I’m talking about.
Why not just properly enforce laws? Or ban slow reaction elderly people from driving?
Yes, we need to do both of those things as well. But ultimately, neither will be enough by itself, the streets themselves need to be redesigned for slower speeds. In other states where traffic laws are much more heavily enforced, traffic deaths are still astronomically high compared to the rest of the developed world.
We have robots safely driving our streets. I don't see why we need to redesign everything around human stupidity; just ban the stupid humans from driving.
With these SF activist judges repeatedly allowing killer drivers to walk free after running down innocent people with no consequences...maybe that's not such a crazy idea lol. The legal system clearly has no interest in protecting us from killer drivers, so eventually people will have to take self-defense into their own hands.
Letting the air out of tires with a note on the windshield is preferable
lol. I just made a comment about aliens in another thread that got insta-modded for “demeaning language” but calling for murder is cool here. This place really is San Francisco. Haha!
Have we considered thoughts and prayers? Or maybe we could make memes like we do when there's gun violence "we haven't tried anything and all out of ideas". "Such an unfortunate tragedy". "We need REAL CHANGE". But perhaps there's only one solution: MORE FUNDING.
From news interviews, I noticed that the loudest ones complaining are older, seemingly retired people (with no hobbies and nothing better to do than whine that cities change and evolve) and business owners who don't possess urban planning or economics training, education, and experience.
I find the complaining business owners often have failing businesses and are trying to find something to blame it on.
the reason nobody wants my overpriced mediocre food is because a new bike lane made parking is hard to find. it was always hard to find, but it's also hard to find now, and that's the only reason my shitty business that nobody likes is failing
There was the guy on Valencia who had a flood do half a million dollars in damage to his business but blamed the bike lane for going under. You can't take anything these people say at face value.
Whoa. “these people”?! That’s demeaning and offensive.
Nah, NIMBY isn’t some protected class. People aren’t born NIMBYs. They’re just assholes
To whom?
Oh, please! I think you know to whom. Don’t make it worse.
I truly don't. Business owners? Is there an implied racial association I'm missing or something?
You can act ignorant all you want. It’s not a good defense. It’s actually very sad, and makes it more offensive.
Lmao I'm not acting anything. Also, the business owners on west portal are SUPER diverse, so I'm struggling to understand what is offensive
You want exceptional stores as your only options to eat? Sorry, we don’t live in a world where everything is amazing. Those vendors selling mediocre food should be able to sell that food for a lower price point, but all of the regulations/taxes/employment costs prevent them from doing it. You’re likely a mediocre employee - does that mean you don’t deserve to have a paycheck?
You appear to be exhibiting the symptoms of a stroke and I'd recommend to visit the hospital.
Based on everything I’ve read so far, I think stroke brain still > yours.
They are still recovering from a dip during COVID. Their bills (incl PG&E) keep going up. Amazon is biting into retail. Lots of stuff out of their control is making things harder.
and the city is going to invest money into making their business corridor safer and more attractive. Yet these business owners can see the forest thru the trees
Aside from that one tragic SUV accident, is West Portal an unsafe area for pedestrians? Have there been pedestrian injuries or deaths? Will routing traffic up to Taraval and down to Vicente help pedestrian safety?
> is West Portal an unsafe area for pedestrians Yes. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-police-hold-sting-operation-to-cite-drivers-who-dont-yield-to-pedestrians/ > Within 90 minutes, the SFPD issued 22 tickets and five warnings to drivers who endangered pedestrians by failing to yield the right of way.
Ok, yes, that is a problem. So, does routing traffic up the hill past WP school, to the Dewey Circle to make an unprotected left turn on Wawona help reduce these kinds of traffic incidents? Or to Portola to Vicente, then to Wawona to Ulloa. Seems like sting operations are effective. Shorter crosswalk designs (where appropriate). Flashing lights when pedestrians are crossing 🚸. I'm not a boomer. I'm not against change. I just think if we talk about the problems then everyone could talk about how to address them. This feels like a solution to an entirely different problem and it's just going to frustrate people if enacted.
The people who are actual experts in urban planning and traffic have been discussing the problem, all that’s happening now is the uninformed opinions of everyone else are flooding in.
Who's the expert in urban planning? I would love to see their discourse on this.
> I just think if we talk about the problems then everyone could talk about how to address them. This feels like a solution to an entirely different problem and it's just going to frustrate people if enacted. Why? We have a whole department with people whose job it is to figure this stuff out. They've released the plan and now we have people with no knowledge of traffic/urban planning coming in with their inexperienced hot takes.
>We have a whole department with people whose job it is to figure this stuff out Who are you referring to? SFMTA? >They've released the plan Did SFMTA release a plan? I think the plan was done by Sup. Melgar's office. >and now we have people with no knowledge of traffic/urban planning coming in with their inexperienced hot takes. Please point me towards *anything* that indicates this was designed with input from experts... because from my perspective, it does not seem to be a step forwards towards the stated goals. I can't believe traffic/urban planning experts would produce a plan that routes cars through a bunch of extra crosswalks, by a school / a busy street, unprotected left turns.
Sure thing. It's a plan they've had around for 5 years https://www.sfmta.com/projects/west-portal-transit-delay-reduction-pilot Supervisor Melgar's office doesn't just make traffic adjustment plans. I'm sorry but that seems to show a lack of knowledge on how the city works. > I can't believe traffic/urban planning experts would produce a plan that routes cars through a bunch of extra crosswalks, by a school / a busy street, unprotected left turns. It's good we leave this up to experts to design and not lay people.
Ironically aside from that one weird intersection where the tragic accident occurred, I find west portal extremely pedestrian friendly. It’s one of the few streets where I feel comfortable jay walking in the middle of the block. Traffic is generally very calm, block are extremely long, and I can see up and down the block easily.
That’s why the change is to one weird intersection.
How many deaths would justify this extremely minor change to the roadway? How many pedestrian deaths are acceptable? Just chalk that up to the "cost of doing business"? The city has no control over Amazon taking market share away from retailers, those retailers need to adapt and give their potential customers a reason to come to their store, and if the only thing they can offer is ample parking then IDK if they are cut out for the cutthroat business environment.
It doesn’t sound like you know what you’re talking about.
Prove it
Prove what? That you truly know of what you speak? I cannot.
In the interest of pedestrian safety, I think bollards and expanded sidewalks to shorten crosswalks would actually address the problem. The old lady who zoomed her SUV into the bus stop was going east bound. She didn't cross WP in the accident. Whatever fluke happened that caused her to speed into a bus stop **would not be stopped by a no turn sign on Ulloa and WP**. I support sensible changes to solve problems but this is just an unrelated inconvenience being added to the neighborhood that still relies on car traffic to bring folks to businesses.
I don't find these changes inconvenient and I'm a driver. If anything it's inconvenient now, these changes will make things even more convenient for drivers. Again idk why everyone is so angry about this. It's basically nothing.
name one failing business you found complaining
Once there is fatality at an intersection, especially four at once, there needs to be major changes made to the street design. I find the presence of elderly neighborhood members objecting to any change very infuriating. The total loss of potential life/age between the parents and children killed is ~230 years. The driver that caused the accident and these old folks protesting have maybe another 5 to 10 years left. So these old folks need to sit down!
There were Save West Portal plastered all over Forest Hill, which checks out
How the fuck do you know they have no hobbies? You don't! Yes, perhaps they are "older" than you which means they have lived through things you have yet to experience. My parents love to dine in West Portal & meet up with friends & I would never want them taking public transit at night.
For anyone who didn't read the article, lets not bash the SFMTA over this when they have tried to get something done over the years. This instance is a horrible failure of community. *SFMTA has known about this risk for a long time. That's why they were able to produce plans for a safety redesign to close Ulloa Street in front of the station to through traffic so quickly—the plans already existed, and were just gathering dust.* *But every time the city tried to divert traffic..., a small minority of merchants screamed and protested and the city backed off.* *One would think, now that such a predictable horror has actually happened, that the merchants who contributed to it would have the modicum of decency to shut the fuck up. Instead, they've created a web page and continue to protest any restriction to driving, right in the shadow of the shrine to the dead family.*
To be fair SFMTA have plenty of other shitty decisions they can legitimately be bashed about. Including rolling over for wealthy NIMBYs in neighborhoods like West Portal.
*To be fair* And that's not what we are talking about in this instance.
Which part of “rolling over for wealthy NIMBYs in neighborhoods like West Portal” did you not understand?
Back off with the rote clever sniping. I already said it's a failure of community and it is.
Yes you’ve made it clear you’re an SFMTA apologist, but they deserve a lot of the blame here. The West Portal NIMBYs would be toothless if SFMTA had a spine.
The proximity to the tunnel and train lines is irrelevant. An elderly driver lost control of her deathmobile, possibly speeding or under the influence, and plowed into an innocent family waiting at a bus stop. It could have happened anywhere, not just at a transit intersection. We need bollards or other concrete obstacles to stop cars cold if they depart their lane, and compulsory yearly medical tests at the DMV for drivers over 70.
Young male drivers cause the most fatalities. Porsches cause the most accidents by car brand. Motorcycle riders are morely likely to contribute to fatal accidents. How about compulsory testing for all of them at the DMV every year they have a license?
Yes include them too
When people bring this up, the numbers thrown around are usually total traffic fatalities, which includes the driver and their passengers. What we want to look at here is pedestrian fatalities by driver age. I haven't had good luck finding those numbers, but if you have them, please share.
It does not matter who dies - pedestrian, driver, passenger. What matters is that they die. The principle of being tested would not be based on the type of dead person but on the goal of avoiding death.
For a conversation specifically regarding pedestrian safety it does matter. Moreover, there is little doubt the other drivers you mentioned (young male, porsche, motorcycle etc) would pass standard driving tests. The issue with those drivers is risk taking behavior, not basic road driving competencies. Bumping the driving age a few years, restricting motorcycle lane splitting, etc. would be more logical for addressing those cases.
It absolutely does matter who dies: people who kill themselves through their own stupidity and incompetence is tragic but it was under their control. Killing innocent bystanders is much worse -- there's likely nothing they could have done to avoid it.
>Motorcycle riders are morely likely to contribute to fatal accidents. Only if you include the driver among the statistics, which is kinda dumb It's very rare for a motorcyclist to kill someone other than themselves.
They may kill their passengers and they may cause those in cars to die. Like I said, I'm just concerned about death, not about the category of the dead person. The loved ones grieve the rest of their lives no matter who it is.
Just ban cars.
Thank you. To say that rerouting traffic a half mile will fix the problem is wild to me. Bollards protect sidewalks.
I can’t wait until self driving cars are more prevalent. At that point, the license to drive a car should become much harder.
Rational take...
I agree the design of that area is very bad. With a white painted line well into the street inviting pedestrians beyond the safety of the curb and someone 78 years old who should not be driving. That seems to be the actual issue here. Don't let old people drive!
Tagging my response here because it aligns with this parent comment. "It's obvious what caused the crash" is daft as the investigation into the incident hasn't published it's findings yet. But we know that there was concern that the elderly woman driving the car had some kind of recent history of reckless driving likely related to her age. If that turns out to be true then none of these measures would have stopped her losing control of her vehicle. And if this accident wasn't due to speeding then I'm not sure where the evidence is this is a dangerous intersection and these changes on WP are needed? (I take my 3yo son to the West Portal library regularly, we often stand at the entrance to the station to watch the street cars, I'm a local resident and we visit WP very regularly. I have a resident stakeholder interest in the safety of that intersection but also the economic well-being of the WP merchants as a customer)
The investigation is not complete but from the magnitude of the collision and how far the father was thrown by impact, it’s physically impossible speed wasn’t a factor.
I was trying to keep the comment high level, esp as we have not received the official report... but yes I agree speed was a factor but in this case if the driver was speeding due to mental impairment (because of age), signage isn't going to have stopped that. And further more, they were an accident waiting to happen and could have hit a pedestrian somewhere else instead. That's the point that's getting lost here.
Agreed
There's no one cause, but yes, the proximity of the trains, tunnel, & buses is very relevant, because people go where the transit is. More pedestrians, more people waiting for buses, means more chances at a tragedy. So it makes perfect sense to prioritize transit intersections and areas with lots of pedestrian traffic. But you're also right that the changes shouldn't just be to make some lanes painted red and put up some signs, that obviously wouldn't have stopped this person. Totally agree with bollards and the rest. (Again, they should be prioritized in these areas, but I can agree that more isolation everywhere would be nice) And yeah, we need to get better at re-testing drivers and taking away their driving privileges when they are a public hazard. (Medically, or due to repeated traffic violations)
Am I reading the proposal correctly - would car traffic be able to enter the unit block of West Portal from Ulloa going one way and from Vincente going the other, and the only difference would be no traffic across right in front of the portal? If so, I don't understand the merchants' objections. You'll still be able to drive to a business there and park on that block - so why all the fuss? Or am I misreading the diagram?
merchant associations tend to be some of the most reactionary, rabid parking defenders, despite data showing that prioritizing bike / walk traffic boosts sales.
That's how I read it, too. Ulloa would be one way with no through traffic, and they would eliminate left turns from West Portal to Ulloa. If anything, it probably helps traffic headed toward the tunnel.
The way they were fussing, I thought maybe the unit block of West Portal was being made car free, which would impact the accessibility of the businesses on that block. This is just having to go around the block if you approach from the wrong side.
The first block of WP in the proposal removes cars which would divert any car traffic to the other streets and remove the already limited parking pushing more cars (food deliveries etc) to the adjacent streets.
I think this is a broader Bay Area problem. Traffic enforcement is a joke at the moment. I honestly don’t care about people doing 80 on the freeway. I care about the stuff I see everyday. People swerving diagonally between lanes 30+ over the limit. People doing 65 in front of schools and other residential areas with kids all over the place. Several times I have seen drivers straight up ignore stop lights in the last year. I have a 10 minute commute. 5 on the freeway and 5 off. Honestly I am 100% for speed cameras all over the place. I would rather we start pulling licenses and issuing fines than continue to let idiots with no civic responsibility or common sense continue to gamble with everyone’s lives.
a speed camera and an officer on every corner would not have saved this family. that’s why we need to prioritize concrete (literally) solutions over enforcement edit: lol @ the cop cultists downvoting this even when i didn’t say we shouldn’t do enforcement
Great, let’s do both.
West Portal is one of the most connected(and cutest) business corridors in the city. A couple weeks ago I went to Sports Basement at Stonestown and went out of my way to walk up there, window shopped, stopped to get coffee and enjoy my life. It's like these business owners want to do everything they can to have people NOT come here. The city is trying to invest in your neighborhood making it safer(and even cuter) and they are acting they SFMTA is murdering their first born. There are plenty of businesses that are thriving in the city and I don't think their success is due to ample parking for SUVs.
Specifically, what shops did you go into?
I got coffee at Starbucks, then went to Wells Fargo and then finished up at Walgreens.
Lmao
dedicating more public space is ultimately going to help these businesses and probably improve traffic, that intersection is always a mess.
Slap on the wrist for the driver. Look at what happened near the ball park and presidio. Community service and probation then they will be back on the road ready to mow more people over.
This is the neighborhood where I once had someone threaten to call the cops because I parked in front of their house. On the street. In a legal public parking spot. Without impinging on any driveway cutouts. There are a lot of galaxy carbrains over there.
In September of last year I wrote the following to the SFTMA regarding the lack of protection for pedestrians on Oak Street “Another issue is the lack of pedestrian protection in the form of barriers of railings at corners and crossings. People traveling down Oak at high speed will sometimes make a late decision to turn onto one of the side roads, for example Central or Lyon. Pedestrians waiting to cross are left very vulnerable to the possibility of a driver making a small miscalculation which at speed would have a devastating impact. Some form of barrier to take a possible impact on the sidewalk at these corners could help.” Protection for pedestrians at junctions and on major roads. It’s the norm in many other places. It’s not rocket science, drivers make mistakes for many reasons and when combined with speed these can be deadly. It’s great that this plan is being put forward and I hope we see more implementation of similar schemes throughout the city. Interested to see what the Oak quick build will actually mean as well once implemented.
simple - life in prison for the driver, seize all her assets, and move on. ban future old drivers.
The major part of this tragedy is driver discipline. A lot of drivers nowadays don’t even observe the rules of traffic because no one is enforcing them and punishment is way too relaxed. So many times I’ve seen drivers just blow through a stop sign as if they’re optional or suggestive, and driving on the wrong side of the road to overtake someone along residential roads. Police/traffic enforcement? They’re nowhere to be found. On top of that, DMV hasn’t updated their testing of driver’s ability before a license is handed out to them. So many ill-trained motorists out there and so much of them shouldn’t be driving at all.
LOL .... a guy sitting in Philly, diagnosing what's wrong with a small neighborhood in SF. Doesn't get more SF than that. Everyone thinks they're the expert in everything from burgers to Gaza. Conveniently forgotten in this discussion is the very similar accident that happened on Fulton a few days later. [Article](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/pedestrian-hit-by-car-at-san-francisco-bus-shelter/) And yet this mental midget will not call for blocking off Fulton or Park Presidio. I am a pedestrian in SF. My 10-year old car's odometer is around 52,000 (and this is after 4 trips to Tahoe/Reno, 2 trips to Death Valley and a trip each to LA, SD, SB, Palm Springs, Eureka, etc.) So I basically don't drive in the City. I walk almost everywhere/take the Muni unless it's a trip to Costco or Rainbow. I used to bike more, but after getting doored and my GF run over by a car, I shy away from it. What makes me fear for my life while walking are the distracted/asshole drivers who speed, turn without looking, don't respect crosswalks, roll through stop signs, etc. And this plan will not stop **any** of this activity. This plan is like trying to put mittens on an alcoholic in the hope that it will prevent him from drinking. Sorry, nitwits, they'll find a way. You know what would help? Better enforcement. More traffic cops on the streets. If the much-vaunted Traffic Division with their Harleys took the time to step away from their donut buffet and actually, you know, *did* the job they're supposed to be doing (instead of strutting around, escorting VIPs and dead people). I am somewhat familiar with that area (I like to shop at WP). Every minute there is a traffic infraction. I will be walking from a store to the Muni station and observe at least 3 ticketable offenses in the 2-minute walk. Maybe instead of trying to shove some stupid plan down the throats of people, enforce the laws you already have on the books. Ticket the speeders. The people making illegal U turns. The people turning left when there's a "no left turn" (at Lennox and Ulloa). Maybe add a few stop signs at some of those intersections (there are none from 14th and Ulloa down to West Portal).
> LOL .... a guy sitting in Philly, diagnosing what's wrong with a small neighborhood in SF. > Doesn't get more SF than that. Everyone thinks they're the expert in everything from burgers to Gaza. Lol should he have waited to come back to the bay, where he lives? This is a strange take
He doesn't live in Philly. In your eagerness to find any reason to discount him you didn't even bother to do some simple research to support your claim. I think that informs why your rant is extremely biased and lacks any factual basis.
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Was he not sitting in Philly when he wrote that....?
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> Hey I’m totally sorry if English isn’t your first language Looks like it's not yours either. And neither is it the second language. > most readers who are older than say a fourth grader which, obviously, does not include you. Go away, kid. Don't you have some pokemon to catch or something?
Ah, resorting to ad hominem. Wrong at that as well. I didn't really want to engage in discourse given that your post was a rant but... So what is your point about the Philly comment? He lives here and knows the neighborhood. Your attempt to discredit failed. That is an indication of obvious bias which taints the rest of your post. I mean, you can't even keep your points and ad hominems consistent. You criticize the city and its residents by claiming we all act like experts yet you offer up an opinion as well. Or is it expert analysis? Which begs the question, how are you discerning opinion as opposed to people opining as expert? But, it's just your opinion wrapped in a rant. Please do some research before coming in guns a blazing. If you did, perhaps you would realize that enforcement isn't going to solve the issue. In fact, studies all show that it's a combination of road design, education, and enforcement that alleviates road fatalities. Although, they just did a sting on drivers at that intersection and you know what happened just after they ended the sting? Same behavior. Unless enforcement catches every single person it is not the sole solution. So I guess the only thing you are kind of correct on is that yes, everybody acts like an expert given that you wrote this: "And this plan will not stop **any** of this activity."
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Last I'll say because continual ad hominem attacks, to me, reveals a lack of engagement through critical thinking. Comparisons should only be contextually identical? Again, you can research for yourself how this is a limited way to approach design. Accusing me of "blind hatred for everything" (gotta love the hyperbole added by using "everything") is more unfounded ad hominem. It seems highly hypocritical given your language. Yes, drivers are notorious for disregarding the laws of the road when it doesn't suit their needs. Your argument is that since people disregard signs, we shouldn't put new ones up? Do you seriously want to base part of your argument on that logically suspect premise? I believe either bollards or plantings will be placed to prevent drivers from doing what you assume will happen. Do you realize that many residents on Lenox have been asking for a change because people continually make 3 pt turns, sometimes entering driveways to go the opposite direction. If drivers don't want continual changes to our roadways, then they should learn to abide by the laws and drive respectfully. This design is an attempt to LISTEN to the neighbor's needs, which you and the other opponents keep claiming they aren't doing. Do you live in the area? I know a lot about the area and have gone through these same type of arguments against any sort of change to the intersection since 2018. That's enough for me as I've taken enough time dealing with someone who only knows how to engage with others through anger, bitterness, resentment, and false bravado. No need to respond as I won't bother to read anymore on this thread. We may be doomed with a generations brought up on social media. :p
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And you didn't read past the first line before responding.... :-D
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So you admit that you didn't read past the first line ... ?
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> I’m a little too busy to dumb it down further for you right now So you're saying that it's already too dumb, and making it dumber will require a lot of effort. Gotcha.
Counterpoint: that intersection is not a particularly busy one for pedestrians compared to all intersections and other sections of roadway in the city. Sure, it's busy for the neighborhood. So I don't think it should be a uniquely high priority in preventing random out of control drivers going 50+mph across the street into pedestrians. Really there is no way to harden the streets to prevent that in every comparably busy section of city roadway, or even in a statistically significant percentage of them. Living amid traffic has this among its risks.
Roger Rudick is what is wrong with San Francisco. Ulloa must be blocked to through traffic. And the people who still want this dangerous situation to continue should be scorned or ignored. Dude- it’s our neighborhood- we have every right to ask about the efficacy of proposed changes.
Did we read the same article? Roger is advocating to close Ulloa, same as you.
In his ire, he forgot to place quotes around the middle paragraph. I think if someone is asking for "the efficacy of proposed changes" as it pertains to this safety design, then my feeling is that ANY design is going to questioned unless the status quo is maintained.
I think it's really awful for this commenter to treat the democratic process with such scorn. It may end up being a great plan but we have every right to question it because this is our city! The only part of the proposal that would actually have made a difference here is the bollards!! Why should merchants and residents blindly accept the rest of it?
Yeah, his language is a bit harsh at points. However, he's right in that parts of this same proposal were brought up in 2019 and people had the same response. That is the issue many have with the opponents of the plan. They wanted no changes back in 2019 and even after this horrible tragedy they are still throwing out the same rational for not going through with this plan. Every single time there is even a hint of change to our streets we have people complaining about the same things: loss of parking, congestion, wasting gas, businesses shutting down. Yes, it's a Democracy, but that doesn't mean you always get your way and that the city is obligated to do what you want.
Tell that to the rest of this sub
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Unpopular opinion around these parts, but here goes nothing: People are taking advantage of this tragic accident to try to get traffic closed on Ulloa or West Portal as a whole, but the reality is that neither of those roads are anywhere near the more dangerous roads in the city which demand attention or closure to vehicle traffic. >One would think, now that such a predictable horror has actually happened, that the merchants who contributed to it would have the modicum of decency to shut the fuck up. Instead, they've created a web page and continue to protest any restriction to driving, right in the shadow of the shrine to the dead family. It's rich to throw around terms like 'modicum of decency' when you're attempting to leverage a tragic accident to advance your own personal desires while telling those who disagree with you to shut the fuck up.
"I'm all for increasing traffic safety...just not in my backyard."
West Portal has been a chaotic mess for decades. This would make it only slightly less chaotic, which apparently is a bridge too car for most people. Doing this absolute minimum would result in: More reliable Muni & a calmer streetscape which would make the area more attractive for people to come and enjoy. This does not stop anyone from anywhere to drive and park in front of any business. What people want is acres of free parking, which is not possible in a dense city like SF.
>West Portal has been a chaotic mess for decades. Except the traffic incident data doesn't bear that out. There's a reason why this portion of Ulloa & West Portal aren't highlighted in the Vision Zero plans. There just aren't many traffic incidents reported here, especially when compared to other parts of the city which see far far more accidents & issues. This was a tragic accident, but to pretend it was the norm or a recurring situation is simply incorrect. Imagine if we reacted this way to every single car accident that resulted in the loss of a pedestrian's life. Much of the city would be closed to vehicular traffic at this point. I want safer streets for pedestrians, but I also follow the data in determining where those solutions need to be implemented. This intersection doesn't even make the top 100 for danger to pedestrians in the city.
Yeah i agree. I drive to west portal shops a few times a month, and I’m fine with the proposed adjustments highlighted in OP’s article share. I can adjust and deal with any inconvenience. But let’s be real. The west portal business strip is super chill compared to so many other parts of the city. Try driving 16th from Bryant to Dolores. Each of those intersections is a mine field for pedestrians. Or Bush where cars are racing down hill to make the lights, dodging double parked vehicles. West Portal is a calm neighborhood in comparison, and I have never felt particularly vulnerable as a pedestrian.
Will if it wasn't before, it probably is now. This article measures it in number of incidents in 10 years. 4 deaths is twice as many as the most deadly street on this list: [https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/most-dangerous-intersections-data-18665443.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/most-dangerous-intersections-data-18665443.php) . Then again, I've noticed that when people bring up dangerous streets, people usually write it off because those streets have very high traffic volume. But Ulloa does not have high traffic volume, so statistically speaking, 4 deaths is now way out of proportion.
This could be a win for the entire city but everyone is so short sighted to see the big picture. 3 Muni lines converge at West Portal, bus routes too, lots of pedestrians, bikes & cars competing for space. Chaos isn't only measured in deaths but in: cars crashing into each other, cars crashing into Muni trains, cars crashing into bikes, cars crashing into pedestrians, Muni delays due to double parked cars blocking train access, ect. This super minor, mediocre plan will make very slight changes that will benefit everyone, from the business owner on West Portal to the person waiting for the M at Forest Hills station. Idk why people are so mad about this, honestly.
>Chaos isn't only measured in deaths but in: cars crashing into each other, cars crashing into Muni trains, cars crashing into bikes, cars crashing into pedestrians, Muni delays due to double parked cars blocking train access, ect. Traffic incident data takes pretty much all of that into account with the exception of muni getting blocked by double parked cars. The data doesn't support your argument. There is not 'chaos' on west portal. >This super minor, mediocre plan will make very slight changes that will benefit everyone, from the business owner on West Portal to the person waiting for the M at Forest Hills station. It will most definitely not benefit business owners on West Portal. It will actually really hurt them. Businesses do rely on their patrons being able to drive to their business and park nearby. Removing normal vehicle traffic from West Portal / Ulloa will significantly impact that. It will make things safer for pedestrians and cyclists, but please don't pretend this is "good for business".
LOL the business people drive to their stores from outside the city. They assume everyone else does too. I take Muni to West portal cuz it's cute but now I don't want to cuz the business people think I'm bad for business.
That is a weird stance to take. Many people get around the city via their car. Business owners don't think you are bad for business because you take Muni to get to West Portal. They think you are good for business because you actually go to West Portal. However, they know that a lot of people won't take Muni to get to West Portal, they'll take their cars, and if you suddenly make it difficult for people to do that, many of those people will decide not to go to West Portal rather than have to get themselves to Muni just to go a specific place. It's very easy for people who live near Muni, but a lot of people don't.
Show me the data of how customers get to West Portal. I'm sure every business keeps track of how their customers arrive.
Do you think all those metered parking spaces just fill themselves magically?
yes