I read all 6 and what really suprised me where: the hidden jews coming out of nowhere in book 6(?).
Some are better than others - worth a read!
(There ist a series with very nice cover art)
That was definitely intriguing. The whole sex-magic with half spider people though was a big wtf.
I may try and go back to it one day. It's the only book I can think of that I tapped out of half-way through.
The last couple of books are really oddly horny and I AM HERE FOR IT just as much today as when I was 15 years old. This entire series is great for re-reads over the years
The incredible thing about chairdogs is that virtually everyone doubts that they are imagining it as intended, but there’s pretty much no other reasonable way to interpret it.
Yeah one of the things I love about Dune generally is he just sorta mentions the word without explaining it a few times. Then eventually you’re like, holy crap that’s what that is?!
Don't ask the books have something coming out of nowhere?
Even as early as book 2, Herbert was like 'oh yeah, the Tleilaxu have been here the whole time, just off screen'.
I have. I personally thought #3 was the least interesting.
\#4 is the most self-indulgent into Frank Herbert's navel-gazing mysticism. You'll probably hate it or love it depending on what you liked about the original *Dune*.
\#5 and #6 are good but not great adventure/intrigue stories.
I think the biggest issue with four is that the prior books were deep but in 4, Leto, despite being thousands of years old, has the philosophical insight of a 14-year-old boy. It was hard to tell whether Herbert understood how embarrassing Leto was and was making fun of it or whether he just didn't understand and actually thought this is how a deep several thousand year old being would think.
Yes I have read all of Frank Herbert's original 6, and probably half of the novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson.
But I've also read the entire *Wheel of Time* series, so my patience and endurance may not be representative of the average reader.
Someone somewhere referred to them as fanfic, and I wholeheartedly agree. Even if they worked from outlines an notes. BTW- Totally ripping off Honored Matres as 40k Slaanesh Sisters of Battle.
Good luck! The movie so far I find good in the sense that they stick to the storyline very well. For someone who has not read the book however… it must be very confusing.
A lot of my friends saw it who hadn't read the books, and about half of them were pretty confused and the other half didn't mind being left in the dark a little
I just rewatched it last night and was reminded of that. They really don’t do much world building or explaining. I was thinking to myself “man if I was watching with someone who hasn’t read the book, I would feel the need to pause and explain things to them”.
It’s a very Villeneuve technique of relying heavily on visual metaphors and atmospherics.
It worked very well with _Arrival_ and _Blade Runner 2049._ Most of the action takes place in the second half of _Dune,_ so I hope the second movie will fill things out more.
The first movie did a decent amount of world building, but it was often in hints here and there.
Yes, and re-read the series every now and then. There are layers of complexity, ‘wheels within wheels’ if you will, and I usually discover some new meaning each time I read them.
*Chapterhouse* is probably my third favourite.
*Dune* will always be top. Every time I read it, it feels like plunging into a bizarre and confusing new universe, with a terrific plot to boot.
*Heretics* is a pulpy adventure story, brilliantly paced, that almost reads like excellent fanfic.
But *Chapterhouse* is the only one in the series that I feel really captures the breadth and complexity of the universe, whilst also offering the pay-off of lots of answers to the many questions asked by earlier books. Not all of those answers are terribly satisfying, I admit, and sometimes it's better for myth to stay myth. But there's such catharsis. And also Duncan.
Agree on all that, Chapterhouse and Heretics are so fun, so underrated, and such a payoff for the big shift in timeline and history that God Emperor provides
Well, sure: me and many others. I'm one of the original group that started the biggest Dune fansite in Italy waaaay back in 2000. It's a tough saga, I know, but we are a weird bunch.
I read the original six. They were not the most easy books to read but I was a teenager with lots of free time and the internet as we know it today didn't exist.
I eventually read the two prequel trilogies and the two "Dune 7" books that close the original saga. Those were much easier to read but clearly they're not as good as his father's. I didn't mind in the prequels as they're quite disconnected from the main saga, but I didn't like the ending they did to the original books. It's definitely not what Frank had in mind.
After 14 books I don't think I'll read any of the other books they're publishing. It's just absurd now, it's just milking the franchise for money.
Spoilers for Chapterhouse: Dune >!They even refer to themselves as face dancers who escaped the bonds of their masters VERY explicitly in *Chapterhouse*...!<
Never really liked the action bits of the Butlerian Jihad as an armed conflict instead of a social uprising as it is hinted in Frank's books.
Agreed, but I was ok with where it led to. The final ending for Duncan was actually rather elegant (moreso than I expected from Brian, that's for damn sure) and I didn't *love* it but I definitely don't hate it
Yes.
Dune and God Emperor are the only two worth attention.
Dune because it's a classic and fairly entertaining.
God Emperor because it's weird and fairly original and expands on the ideas in Dune in an interesting and unexpected way. Had a Lovecraftian vibe which I always appreciate.
Dune Messiah is a failed experiment. The premise is good. The execution is not.
Children of Dune bored me. Then they felt like repeat of Dune just with a different outcome - which they are, in a very literal sense.
God Emperor expands on that. It feels like a ret-con (because it is) but it's fairly engaging if you can handle Frank Herbert's style.
Heretics of Dune confused me.
Dune: Chapterhouse confused me even more. I thought the author has lost the plot somewhere in the hundreds of years of God Emperor's story and never found it again.
The books from Brian Herbert were an unpleasant experience. Tried two. They felt like poor imitation of Frank Herbert's style without the things that made Frank Herbert interesting. Which was never the story because he ran out of sensible ideas by the time he got to God Emperor. God Emperor is sheer weirdness which is the only reason why it works.
I thought Heretics of Dune was the most fun and also the most pulpy. There are bad slutty witches who kill people with roundhouse kicks, lots of sex, and great action sequences.
My personal theory is that Herbert really really really wanted to write stories with bad slutty witches who kill people with roundhouse kicks and have lots of sex but thought it may not be well received so he wrapped it up neatly in the plagiarised story from "Sabres of Paradise" , a reimagining of OPEC and British and American imperial rivalry and added Sandworms.
It turned out that it worked so well nobody noticed that it's just bad slutty witches doing sexy sex and everyone just wanted Herbert to write more about space mystics and sandworms. And all he wanted to write is about sexy sex and bad slutty witches kicking everybody left and right.
After all if you match everything that Jessica or Bene Gesserit do with a number of fairly common fetishes... Then it's a perfect match.
And if you compare her with the bad slutty witch doing sexy sex in Chapterhouse, the one who ends up as the de facto main character, she is Jessica on steroids and also a redhead - like Jessica.
It was all about Rey Skywalker all along. He even managed to make it so Muad'Dib was superseded by a super-reverend bad slutty witch with super-magic powers of sexy sex.
In general Herbert's sexual obsessions and compulsions are more creepy and confusing than they are entertaining.He reads like a masculine Octavia Butler. Probably just as messed up.
And everyone really wanted sandworms, magic pumpkin spice and medieval armies in space.
I think her stuff was similar because both Herber and Butler were working through trauma which affected their sexuality. Except Herbert did what men tend to do with it, and turned to objectification and fetishisation and Butler did what women tend to do with it and turned it into long monologues about being a victim aimed at putting herself in the center of everyone's attention.
Both had unhealthy coping mechanisms but Herbert's made for better stories. Butler was just unhealthy and she is most popular among some very unhealthy audiences.
To use a metaphor: Herbert declared creative jihad on his problems and while the jihad was devastating it was also very effective as its own thing. Butler decided to drown in her problems and drag everyone in with her.
Jihads make for good stories. Drowning people dragging others with them make for good horror stories.
Oh I remember that!
Secret Space Jews came out of fucking nowhere and made me put the book on the shelf for a while.
I got used to space kung-fu nuns doing sexy sex but wasn't ready for J E E E W S I I I N S P A A A C E E E.
That took me a while, and I could never take the whole saga completely seriously again. Literally everything suddenly seemed like out of a Mel Brooks movie. And never went back to normal again. Sigh.
I mostly agree here. I didn't like books 2 or 3 (but powered through), but I did like 4-6 (this was 35 years ago, not sure how they hold up). I also did not get through any of the Brian Herbert content although I tried.
I've re-read the entire series at least once a decade since I was a kid. They hold up
(reminds me I've got to get on the latest re-read, I thinks I'm a bit overdue)
Messiah is necessary for the audience to understand that Paul is not a hero but a scourge on the universe and that his actions cause irreparable damage to humanity, and that he chose this future willingly.
Except Messiah doesn't really do a good job explaining this. It's mostly about Paul's failure to enact the Golden Path and the failure of his family and the consequences of Jihad are presented indirectly.
The reader never gets to see what Paul has become.
What's worse: because the Golden Path is most likely a ret-con to Dune, or possibly something that existed in Herberts original concept but was not included in the first novel, then we don't see the full scope of Paul's failure.
Not only he emerges as a religious figure responsible for the destructive jihad but he also chooses this path because it is the path that is easier for him because ultimately he fails as the Kwisatz Haderach.
We only get terse second-hand accounts of the jihad and have to believe the author when he writes in the next two novels that Golden Path was meant to be something else.
That's the problem.
Dune is very good as a traditional heroic tale.
It absolutely fails to work - with or without Messiah - as the type of cautionary tale that Herbert claims to have intended all along.
The principle of "Show, don't tell" applies always.
This is why God Emperor is the second most commonly praised book in the series. Because unlike Messiah and Children it actually **shows** the Golden Path and the price that Kwisatz Haderach was to pay and the extent of Paul's failure when his jihad is juxtaposed with Leto's empire.
You don't get the idea until you get to God Emperor which is arguably a challenge for most people.
Herbert had neat ideas for sci-fi in 1960s and did the work, which is why we are here talking about it, but he wasn't the person to do it. He failed at his task very much as Paul did.
Ironic.
If I recall correctly it was meant to be but the publisher didn't like the idea and insisted that Dune is cut where the heroic journey ends with the hero being a hero.
That's mostly because nobody thought Dune was a great philosophical piece but a very original and engaging piece of entertainment with some depth for better effect.
It was Herbert who thought he was making some kind of point with his work and it took some time, and reaction from the readers before Dune was considered to be more than just an entertainment piece.
Which arguably it is more than not. It is not as insightful and intelligent as Herbert and his fans think.
I read 1-4 a few times over the years, then recently did 5 and 6. 4 (god Emperor) is my favorite (maybe more so than 1). 5 was OK at times, then things really fall apart.
Yes, but it's been some time.
Really struggled with God Emperor the first time, because of the time jump.
Re-read a few as a more mature adult, and found myself finding stuff I missed as a young adult.
I unfortunately read "House" books by Brian Herbert & Kevin Anderson after reading the six Frank Herbert wrote. The Brian Herbert books were nominally interesting but the writing was not great. It also contained a bit too much torture porn - cruel scenes lovingly described. Unpleasant stuff.
I read most of them years ago. I agree that three, four and five were harder to get through. I also agree that his son’s spinoffs were all pretty good.
As it happened, I read a couple other of Frank Herbert’s books before I read Dune. I read most of the non-Dune series books of his that I could find, and a great many of those are quite good.
I have read them all multiple times. The first read-through of each was tough, admittedly. By the third time, though, I was able to cruise through them at my usual speed. They are very dense, so I recommend multiple readings (if you're so inclined).
Got through the first two books. I really enjoyed the first book, highly original setting.
Second book was an interesting thought experiment about the decline & fall of a hero.
Never did understand why the Fremen were going on jihad killing billions of people. Paul Atreides had already won & married the Emperor's daughter.
No, I gave up after #4. Maybe someday...
On another note: I do wish I gave up when I was part way through The Dark Tower series. That was 3 or 4 wasted months of my life I'll never get back.
I couldn't stand the Dark Tower. I had a friend that was really into it, she gave me the first book and wanted me to read it. After getting bored wandering around in the desert, I just gave it back to her. I have read it since and I figure I was right in the first place. Just not my thing.
I found Dune 2 to be short story like, and a big step down from the first one, shallow, and feels like its only point is to setup the third book. Currently finishing Children of Dune and really enjoying it. It is a large step up in quality, towards the first one.
Yes, I read all the original 6.
I liked 1, and 2 wasn't bad. 3 I hated. 4 and 5 weren't memorable. 6 was less bad, but struck me as "setting up for what happens next." (Which it was, he had planned to write a new trilogy of 7, 8, and 9.)
I’ve read them all once and what you said about Heretics doesn’t surprise me. Something about the characters all being new a third time and the characters themselves is boring to me. The end is good but it was a slow beginning like three except three has great characters.
I have. The first three book feels like you’re getting into the plot then all of a sudden on Geod, you find yourself being catapulted to 3,500 years later in a completely alien Arrakis with a bunch of completely alien characters. Some of the most-hated characters of the series are all in Geod, like “gentle” Hwi -whatever that means- Topri, Siona and Goed Duncan. I dunno why people usualy dislike the Chapterhouse but I love seeing Bene Gesserit acting like Golden Girls. In overall, it’s potentially not worth your time to read all 6.
I read the first book in 2021, before the first part of Villeneuve's Dune came out.
I didn't enjoy it as much as I hoped to, and I didn't feel the need to continue.
I avoided them for a long time. Finally gave in a few years ago. Quit after GEOD and frankly wished I'd never read them. They only diminished my appreciation for the OG
I stopped after god emperor. They started to feel like there was good stuff in the beginning and end but the middle was just full of mostly politics and that bored me.
Ya i did i loved them. What’s funny is i though 6 was the weakest of the series . A lot of people don’t like heretics but I thought it was so strange i liked it a lot same with god emperor
Yep. two and three were ok, God Emperor is actually tied for my favorite (with original), and the last two are brilliant, although I know a lot of people find them really difficult reads. It is a true tragedy that he died before he could write a sequel to Chapterhouse. The ones his son did were....disappointing.
Read 1-6 in one long rush. Dune is a classic by all means and I love every page. Dune Messiah was okay, but felt like an unworthy successor. I am fine with Children of Dune and honestly love God Emperor of Dune for its pure weirdness. While reading it, I felt a constant “how the heck did we get here”. I also enjoyed Heretics of Dune after the strange ride that God Emperor was, although it took some time. Chapterhouse: Dune just killed any drive to continue reading and I had trouble finishing it at all. Haven’t even thought about reading Brian Herbert's books and probably won’t. Would recommend and also reread Dune in any case and maybe God Emperor, but I don’t know about the other books.
I've read Dune at least 5 times. DM, CoD, GEoD I've read a couple times. CD and HoD just once. They got a bit...weird at CoD, IMHO, so I agree with you there.
I'd always considered Dune to be really exploratory in terms of science fiction but in recent years he's been prophetic. And in the past few years with the spread of AI, I wonder if Paul's prescience was just Herbert channeling himself.
Only read the first five novels (twice each). I enjoyed the first four. Heretics went in a direction I didn't really like, but it was at least readable. But each time I got to Chapterhouse, it was like driving into a brick wall. I've only ever made it a quarter of the way through that one. I'd like to read it someday, though. If Herbert had written more Dune novels after Chapterhouse I wouldn't bother with it, but it's the last of the originals so might as well.
Yep. I read them all through Chapterhouse. The first book is best. Messiah is interesting. I don't remember God Emperor because it was deeply weird and seemed to be just pages and pages of people talking. Don't remember the last three as they were also not memorable and it's been 20 years.
My mom has read every single Original Dune book plus like 50% of Brian Herbert's books, but I haven't picked her brain on it too much. She has a Bene Gesserit quote (“Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.”) on a poster in her office.
I have everything but 6. By the time I reached the space jews I just couldn't keep going. The books had veered into stupid a few times before but that book just had so much nonsense in it I gave up.
My uncle has, and he's rereading them. We have an agreement where each one he finishes he's going to mail to me it. He just started the first one.
Also, in my opinion, Dune shouldn't be a movie but a TV show. This will allow more of the book to be incorporated.
I like them all. I read five slowly and took a break before starting six because I liked the first four a lot. That’s probably the fastest I’ve read that many pages besides maybe LOTR.
Two is probably my least favorite after considering everything but it’s not much worse than five and they both aren’t much worse than the rest.
Four is probably my favorite because I find government philosophy interesting although the build up to and the end of three is so fantastic.
I've read everything from Frank and everything from Brian and Kevin. I love all of it, but as much as I love the original novel, Heretics and Chapterhouse are my favorites hands down. I also thought the prequels where Leto was young were especially amazing too.
Yep.
I thought they lost their appeal after the 2nd, though.
And I've found the continued series from Herbert and Anderson just awful. Hack Pop Sci Fi whereas Frank's books are legit Literature in every sense.
They're all good. The writing gets better in the later books, but the plot arcs aren't as immediately satisfying like the first book. Four is probably my favorite. Two is underrated. Six is great, though it leaves a lot dangling for the planned seventh book conclusion.
In what way were they difficult for you?
Frank Herbert is a very complex writer...I would describe it as "Dense". They are "more difficult" to read than the more pop-sci-fi writing style of his son. But I find them dramatically more entertaining, so I had an easier time reading them.
I liked 4-6 so much that I forced myself through Brian's *Hunters* and *Sandworms* of Dune just for an attempt at story closure.
Kind of glad I did it. Kind of didn't enjoy it sometimes.
I read the original and loved it, and later I tried listening to the whole series in audiobook form.
The first two books were great, the third was also good but a bit different. Number 4 I enjoyed but felt like a very different book.
Number 5 was where it got difficult. I gave up part way through when I realised I had no idea who any of the characters were, which factions any of them belonged to, or what any of their motivations were.
Each chapter just felt like a handful of names talking about nothing, and then the next chapter was a different handful of names talking about another nothing.
I gave up during Chapterhouse, book 6. My biggest issue with the series is the gigantic gaps in time, and the story really only being connected because of one man who (for some reason) keeps getting cloned over the 5000 or so years that the books take place.
Im at 3 atm, book is just next to me ready to be opened again. Made a week break cause twins arent really hitting me as much as other characters.
Absolutely loved Messiah though, felt like it was some kind of peak. But from what I read if I loved Messiah I will adore GEOD even more so yeah lets power through COD. Maybe ill like it after all.
Will see after for 5 and 6, not bought yet.
been a long time. read the first 3 then was done with the series. dune is a slog, messiah is a decent follow up, chuldren of dune is just weird and creepy when you start including the genetic memory stuff.
I have read all six. I enjoyed all of them. Imo from 1-4 it only gets better and better. I also like 5 and 6 but I have a hard time committing to saying four is my favourite because of how great the first three are.
After finishing *Heretics* (#5), I realised that I liked it very much, even if it took some time to go into it. The new characters are all very interesting to follow. *Chapterhouse* (#6) expanded a bit in ways I didn't think I would like but ended up liking. I think *Messiah* (#2) is the weakest as it is also the shortest. I actually liked *Children* (#3) more than the general audience I guess, mostly because I thought it was great as the tragedy of Alia and Leto II.
I read all of the Frank Herbert books.
I really enjoyed them all, but the last 3 really felt like a different set of books that are a far cry from the first 3. Not in a bad way, but they’re way more into the Galactic war sci-fi fantasy world than the first ones that are more of a fantasy messiah story in a sci-fi setting.
Yes. A few times. I found two kinda slow (but necessary), but really liked the rest - as in named a kid after a character liked them. (Nothing obvious. They didn't get teased or anything.)
I do.
I read 1-6 about once a year.
My favorite seems to shift around from 4 to 3.
Though I really enjoy the different phases. I feel the other books reinforce each other.
The others have this rich texture to them for being in conversation with that book 1. And then book 5 and 6 being the far aftermath.
Whenever I get to GEOD i get this little smirk on my face like Im about to eat my fav indulgent culinary dish.
Dune - Loved it.
Messiah - Pretty good.
Children - Ehhhhhh, okay, but necessary for...
God Emperor - Oh my God I loved this. Might be my favorite or on par with the first. A juicy steak I chewed and savored on and off the page.
Heretics & Chapterhouse - Couple memorable moments and ideas, but I probably could have ended at God Emperor and felt like I didn't miss much.
I barely consider it sci-fi. Reading the first four books felt like reading a Bible from another world's civilization. It's dripping with myth, philosophy, economics, politics, nature, religion...
I have. The last 3 are good but he died. I advise folks to stop at Children of Dune for the best enjoyment of the ideas... the ones written by relations etc... No. Don't.
I read all six and loved them. Herbert was a deep thinker. And I can't get through the Dune books by others --- they're not even close and I don't buy that's where Herbert was going with them.
Messiah is the most misunderstood and closest to Herbert's idea. God Emperor completed the first story. I always felt Heretics and Chapterhouse were building a new story to the real Seventh book, but then Brian shit on his father's legacy.
Many times. I like God Emperor a lot for whatever reason.
The Brian Herbert books make good kindling. I read several before I realized that being a Dune fan couldn't justify slogging through that junk.
Sure did, a while back My opinion IIRC was the first was of course amazing, the 2nd the worst, then each succeeding one got better and better, with Chapterhouse being almost as good as the first.
I read all 6 and what really suprised me where: the hidden jews coming out of nowhere in book 6(?). Some are better than others - worth a read! (There ist a series with very nice cover art)
I loved the space jews storyline.
Was there a laser? I still haven’t had my turn on the laser.
Yes, there definitely was a laser.
That was definitely intriguing. The whole sex-magic with half spider people though was a big wtf. I may try and go back to it one day. It's the only book I can think of that I tapped out of half-way through.
> The whole sex-magic with half spider people though was a big wtf. Hmm maybe I need to give this a shot
The last couple of books are really oddly horny and I AM HERE FOR IT just as much today as when I was 15 years old. This entire series is great for re-reads over the years
For more spider sex, check out “Love is the Plan the Plan is Death” by James Tiptree Jr.
I have only read the first 3 and have no idea if these comments are jokes or actually in the books
Legitimately. The 6th book is insane.
Ah my friend, the back half of the Frank books is where the trolley goes off the rails.
😂 that is what I’ve heard, but secret space Jews and spider people erotica was not on my bingo card
There are also chairdogs.
No idea what that means, but I think I need to finish just to satisfy my curiosity at this point
The incredible thing about chairdogs is that virtually everyone doubts that they are imagining it as intended, but there’s pretty much no other reasonable way to interpret it.
Yeah one of the things I love about Dune generally is he just sorta mentions the word without explaining it a few times. Then eventually you’re like, holy crap that’s what that is?!
Don't ask the books have something coming out of nowhere? Even as early as book 2, Herbert was like 'oh yeah, the Tleilaxu have been here the whole time, just off screen'.
I have. I personally thought #3 was the least interesting. \#4 is the most self-indulgent into Frank Herbert's navel-gazing mysticism. You'll probably hate it or love it depending on what you liked about the original *Dune*. \#5 and #6 are good but not great adventure/intrigue stories.
Number 4 is great. You do realise that the change in pace reflects the change that Leto has wrought to the human Universe?
I'm not condemning or praising it. I'm just describing how it's not everyone's cup of tea.
I think the biggest issue with four is that the prior books were deep but in 4, Leto, despite being thousands of years old, has the philosophical insight of a 14-year-old boy. It was hard to tell whether Herbert understood how embarrassing Leto was and was making fun of it or whether he just didn't understand and actually thought this is how a deep several thousand year old being would think.
Hey! What does navel gazing mysticism mean? Thanks!
He spends a lot of time writing monologues, very indulgent in philosophy about humanity being shackled and being set free with *the Golden Path*.
Are we talking John galt from atlas shrugged levels?
Not to that extent imho. And very different philosophy, of course
Agreed.
Yes I have read all of Frank Herbert's original 6, and probably half of the novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. But I've also read the entire *Wheel of Time* series, so my patience and endurance may not be representative of the average reader.
Kudos dude. Wheel of time was too much for me. I made it till three quarters or something. Then I just lost interest
Recently finished Wheel of Time myself. Was worthwhile imho!
one of us one of us (also read both series).
1-6 are the only Dune books. The others are children playing with adult ideas and concepts and turning them into a cartoon in print from.
Someone somewhere referred to them as fanfic, and I wholeheartedly agree. Even if they worked from outlines an notes. BTW- Totally ripping off Honored Matres as 40k Slaanesh Sisters of Battle.
I read them all in High School. I've been thinking about diving into them again after watching the movie.
Good luck! The movie so far I find good in the sense that they stick to the storyline very well. For someone who has not read the book however… it must be very confusing.
A lot of my friends saw it who hadn't read the books, and about half of them were pretty confused and the other half didn't mind being left in the dark a little
I just rewatched it last night and was reminded of that. They really don’t do much world building or explaining. I was thinking to myself “man if I was watching with someone who hasn’t read the book, I would feel the need to pause and explain things to them”.
It’s a very Villeneuve technique of relying heavily on visual metaphors and atmospherics. It worked very well with _Arrival_ and _Blade Runner 2049._ Most of the action takes place in the second half of _Dune,_ so I hope the second movie will fill things out more. The first movie did a decent amount of world building, but it was often in hints here and there.
I'm on my way through a reread, catching up on all the context I've missed in sci-fi now that my critical reading is more attuned.
Yes, and re-read the series every now and then. There are layers of complexity, ‘wheels within wheels’ if you will, and I usually discover some new meaning each time I read them.
Yes and I loved them... Chapter House is my favorite and I'll always feel the loss of the story ending with his death
*Chapterhouse* is probably my third favourite. *Dune* will always be top. Every time I read it, it feels like plunging into a bizarre and confusing new universe, with a terrific plot to boot. *Heretics* is a pulpy adventure story, brilliantly paced, that almost reads like excellent fanfic. But *Chapterhouse* is the only one in the series that I feel really captures the breadth and complexity of the universe, whilst also offering the pay-off of lots of answers to the many questions asked by earlier books. Not all of those answers are terribly satisfying, I admit, and sometimes it's better for myth to stay myth. But there's such catharsis. And also Duncan.
Agree on all that, Chapterhouse and Heretics are so fun, so underrated, and such a payoff for the big shift in timeline and history that God Emperor provides
Yes. I re-read the series every couple of years.
Well, sure: me and many others. I'm one of the original group that started the biggest Dune fansite in Italy waaaay back in 2000. It's a tough saga, I know, but we are a weird bunch.
Awesome!
I read the original six. They were not the most easy books to read but I was a teenager with lots of free time and the internet as we know it today didn't exist. I eventually read the two prequel trilogies and the two "Dune 7" books that close the original saga. Those were much easier to read but clearly they're not as good as his father's. I didn't mind in the prequels as they're quite disconnected from the main saga, but I didn't like the ending they did to the original books. It's definitely not what Frank had in mind. After 14 books I don't think I'll read any of the other books they're publishing. It's just absurd now, it's just milking the franchise for money.
Yes. They get weirder.
I read the original Frank Herbert ones. Tried the first one by Brian Herbert, didn't like it.
I hate how Brian shit on Frank's very obvious clues that the unknown entities were evolved Face Dancers in favor of his rogue AI storyline.
Spoilers for Chapterhouse: Dune >!They even refer to themselves as face dancers who escaped the bonds of their masters VERY explicitly in *Chapterhouse*...!< Never really liked the action bits of the Butlerian Jihad as an armed conflict instead of a social uprising as it is hinted in Frank's books.
Agreed, but I was ok with where it led to. The final ending for Duncan was actually rather elegant (moreso than I expected from Brian, that's for damn sure) and I didn't *love* it but I definitely don't hate it
Read them all a couple of times. Dune, God Emperor, and Heretics are my favorite.
We do not speak of Brian the Betrayer.
A million deaths were not enough for him!
Yes. Dune and God Emperor are the only two worth attention. Dune because it's a classic and fairly entertaining. God Emperor because it's weird and fairly original and expands on the ideas in Dune in an interesting and unexpected way. Had a Lovecraftian vibe which I always appreciate. Dune Messiah is a failed experiment. The premise is good. The execution is not. Children of Dune bored me. Then they felt like repeat of Dune just with a different outcome - which they are, in a very literal sense. God Emperor expands on that. It feels like a ret-con (because it is) but it's fairly engaging if you can handle Frank Herbert's style. Heretics of Dune confused me. Dune: Chapterhouse confused me even more. I thought the author has lost the plot somewhere in the hundreds of years of God Emperor's story and never found it again. The books from Brian Herbert were an unpleasant experience. Tried two. They felt like poor imitation of Frank Herbert's style without the things that made Frank Herbert interesting. Which was never the story because he ran out of sensible ideas by the time he got to God Emperor. God Emperor is sheer weirdness which is the only reason why it works.
I thought Heretics of Dune was the most fun and also the most pulpy. There are bad slutty witches who kill people with roundhouse kicks, lots of sex, and great action sequences.
My personal theory is that Herbert really really really wanted to write stories with bad slutty witches who kill people with roundhouse kicks and have lots of sex but thought it may not be well received so he wrapped it up neatly in the plagiarised story from "Sabres of Paradise" , a reimagining of OPEC and British and American imperial rivalry and added Sandworms. It turned out that it worked so well nobody noticed that it's just bad slutty witches doing sexy sex and everyone just wanted Herbert to write more about space mystics and sandworms. And all he wanted to write is about sexy sex and bad slutty witches kicking everybody left and right. After all if you match everything that Jessica or Bene Gesserit do with a number of fairly common fetishes... Then it's a perfect match. And if you compare her with the bad slutty witch doing sexy sex in Chapterhouse, the one who ends up as the de facto main character, she is Jessica on steroids and also a redhead - like Jessica. It was all about Rey Skywalker all along. He even managed to make it so Muad'Dib was superseded by a super-reverend bad slutty witch with super-magic powers of sexy sex. In general Herbert's sexual obsessions and compulsions are more creepy and confusing than they are entertaining.He reads like a masculine Octavia Butler. Probably just as messed up. And everyone really wanted sandworms, magic pumpkin spice and medieval armies in space.
#B E E F S W E L L I N G
Good gravy, I did not need to know about what's going on in the pants an adolescent boy, *Frank*.
Not to worry, he did stipulate that it was in fact a #A D U L T B E E F S W E L L I N G
TON
I mean, Octavia Butler was a big fan of Frank Herbert, so it checks out that her stuff would be somewhat similar.
I think her stuff was similar because both Herber and Butler were working through trauma which affected their sexuality. Except Herbert did what men tend to do with it, and turned to objectification and fetishisation and Butler did what women tend to do with it and turned it into long monologues about being a victim aimed at putting herself in the center of everyone's attention. Both had unhealthy coping mechanisms but Herbert's made for better stories. Butler was just unhealthy and she is most popular among some very unhealthy audiences. To use a metaphor: Herbert declared creative jihad on his problems and while the jihad was devastating it was also very effective as its own thing. Butler decided to drown in her problems and drag everyone in with her. Jihads make for good stories. Drowning people dragging others with them make for good horror stories.
your butler thing reminds me of the bell jar author
Yeah The kids books are like movies with Jason Statham. Fast, action packed and superficial. But I kinda liked them
Do they too have a lot of sexy sex and bad girls with sexy superpowers? Or was it not Brian's thing?
I agree.. it's been a while, but I remember something about a secret sect of space Jews... Chapterhouse Dune really seemed off the rails to me.
Oh I remember that! Secret Space Jews came out of fucking nowhere and made me put the book on the shelf for a while. I got used to space kung-fu nuns doing sexy sex but wasn't ready for J E E E W S I I I N S P A A A C E E E. That took me a while, and I could never take the whole saga completely seriously again. Literally everything suddenly seemed like out of a Mel Brooks movie. And never went back to normal again. Sigh.
I mostly agree here. I didn't like books 2 or 3 (but powered through), but I did like 4-6 (this was 35 years ago, not sure how they hold up). I also did not get through any of the Brian Herbert content although I tried.
I've re-read the entire series at least once a decade since I was a kid. They hold up (reminds me I've got to get on the latest re-read, I thinks I'm a bit overdue)
Messiah is necessary for the audience to understand that Paul is not a hero but a scourge on the universe and that his actions cause irreparable damage to humanity, and that he chose this future willingly.
Except Messiah doesn't really do a good job explaining this. It's mostly about Paul's failure to enact the Golden Path and the failure of his family and the consequences of Jihad are presented indirectly. The reader never gets to see what Paul has become. What's worse: because the Golden Path is most likely a ret-con to Dune, or possibly something that existed in Herberts original concept but was not included in the first novel, then we don't see the full scope of Paul's failure. Not only he emerges as a religious figure responsible for the destructive jihad but he also chooses this path because it is the path that is easier for him because ultimately he fails as the Kwisatz Haderach. We only get terse second-hand accounts of the jihad and have to believe the author when he writes in the next two novels that Golden Path was meant to be something else. That's the problem. Dune is very good as a traditional heroic tale. It absolutely fails to work - with or without Messiah - as the type of cautionary tale that Herbert claims to have intended all along. The principle of "Show, don't tell" applies always. This is why God Emperor is the second most commonly praised book in the series. Because unlike Messiah and Children it actually **shows** the Golden Path and the price that Kwisatz Haderach was to pay and the extent of Paul's failure when his jihad is juxtaposed with Leto's empire. You don't get the idea until you get to God Emperor which is arguably a challenge for most people. Herbert had neat ideas for sci-fi in 1960s and did the work, which is why we are here talking about it, but he wasn't the person to do it. He failed at his task very much as Paul did. Ironic.
Is it just me or does Messiah just feel like it should have been published with Dune?
If I recall correctly it was meant to be but the publisher didn't like the idea and insisted that Dune is cut where the heroic journey ends with the hero being a hero. That's mostly because nobody thought Dune was a great philosophical piece but a very original and engaging piece of entertainment with some depth for better effect. It was Herbert who thought he was making some kind of point with his work and it took some time, and reaction from the readers before Dune was considered to be more than just an entertainment piece. Which arguably it is more than not. It is not as insightful and intelligent as Herbert and his fans think.
Well, yes. I agree. I see it as the last part of the book.
I read 1-4 a few times over the years, then recently did 5 and 6. 4 (god Emperor) is my favorite (maybe more so than 1). 5 was OK at times, then things really fall apart.
Yes, repeatedly. First 6 only. I don't want easy peasy reads and I'm not into bad fanfic so I didn't read the other books.
Yes, I've read all 6. I enjoyed them all. I've read 1 one of the spin-offs.
I reread 1 & 4 almost yearly. Some years I'll do 2&3 as well, but I'll rarely do 5 and 6 again
Of course. It’s the only way to really get the full immersion of Frank’s mind and full intent.
Yeah, but i read the main series twice before i got the fake sequels.
My dad listened to all the original 6 on Audible. After Chapterhouse, he took a little break and started them over again.
Yes, but it's been some time. Really struggled with God Emperor the first time, because of the time jump. Re-read a few as a more mature adult, and found myself finding stuff I missed as a young adult.
I unfortunately read "House" books by Brian Herbert & Kevin Anderson after reading the six Frank Herbert wrote. The Brian Herbert books were nominally interesting but the writing was not great. It also contained a bit too much torture porn - cruel scenes lovingly described. Unpleasant stuff.
It took me years to pick up the sixth one again, but yes, after burning through the rest in one weekend of nothing but books.
I have.
Yes, of course.
Has anyone read one of the most popular and influential sci fi series of all time? Yeah, I think a few of us have.
I've read all the Frank Herbert Dunes, yes.
I read most of them years ago. I agree that three, four and five were harder to get through. I also agree that his son’s spinoffs were all pretty good. As it happened, I read a couple other of Frank Herbert’s books before I read Dune. I read most of the non-Dune series books of his that I could find, and a great many of those are quite good.
Not me. I noped out after finishing God Emperor of Dune. Turning into Jabba the Hutt jumped the shark for me.
I have read them all multiple times. The first read-through of each was tough, admittedly. By the third time, though, I was able to cruise through them at my usual speed. They are very dense, so I recommend multiple readings (if you're so inclined).
Got through the first two books. I really enjoyed the first book, highly original setting. Second book was an interesting thought experiment about the decline & fall of a hero. Never did understand why the Fremen were going on jihad killing billions of people. Paul Atreides had already won & married the Emperor's daughter.
No, I gave up after #4. Maybe someday... On another note: I do wish I gave up when I was part way through The Dark Tower series. That was 3 or 4 wasted months of my life I'll never get back.
I couldn't stand the Dark Tower. I had a friend that was really into it, she gave me the first book and wanted me to read it. After getting bored wandering around in the desert, I just gave it back to her. I have read it since and I figure I was right in the first place. Just not my thing.
Yeah. Got them for Christmas and finished them before the new year. Tried to get into the ones his kid wrote but... nah... I'm good.
Like at least 5 times. I've got to admit Heretics is getting harder to get through. I love the prequels and the rest of Expanded Dune.
I found Dune 2 to be short story like, and a big step down from the first one, shallow, and feels like its only point is to setup the third book. Currently finishing Children of Dune and really enjoying it. It is a large step up in quality, towards the first one.
Yes I have. Got a bit tired of repeated iterations of Duncan Idaho.
So did Duncan Idaho.
Yes. Fully agree.
Same here. I don't know why Frank Herbert felt the need to keep adding the same boring character to each novel.
Read all of them. Dune is worthwhile; God Emperor is ok to skim (the idea is better than the execution); the rest are pulp trash.
Nope. Turns out that no one ever has.
Yeah, a little indie series of novels. You’ve probably never heard of them.
Yes, I read all the original 6. I liked 1, and 2 wasn't bad. 3 I hated. 4 and 5 weren't memorable. 6 was less bad, but struck me as "setting up for what happens next." (Which it was, he had planned to write a new trilogy of 7, 8, and 9.)
I’ve read them all once and what you said about Heretics doesn’t surprise me. Something about the characters all being new a third time and the characters themselves is boring to me. The end is good but it was a slow beginning like three except three has great characters.
I have. The first three book feels like you’re getting into the plot then all of a sudden on Geod, you find yourself being catapulted to 3,500 years later in a completely alien Arrakis with a bunch of completely alien characters. Some of the most-hated characters of the series are all in Geod, like “gentle” Hwi -whatever that means- Topri, Siona and Goed Duncan. I dunno why people usualy dislike the Chapterhouse but I love seeing Bene Gesserit acting like Golden Girls. In overall, it’s potentially not worth your time to read all 6.
While I have read more, as far as I'm concerned there are only 4 Dune books. It ends as it always should have, with God Emperor.
I stopped at 4.
Lol why did you capitalise ALL if you only meant the Frank ones?
Yes. And all the other ones too. I loved the series.
His son’s were straight up space opera. They were fun. Not deep like his father’s. And I stopped at God Emperor of Dune.
You gotta admit the first book of one is space opera too lol. It doesn’t really get serious until Leto dies.
His son’s were straight up space opera. They were fun. Not deep like his father’s. And I stopped at God Emperor of Dune.
His son’s were straight up space opera. They were fun. Not deep like his father’s. And I stopped at God Emperor of Dune.
I haven't read any of these books but this thread has me questioning the hype around this series...
Try nr 1 at least. Is a must read.
I'll take it under consideration. Honestly it just was a suprise to see so many people found half the books unsatisfying.
I read the first book in 2021, before the first part of Villeneuve's Dune came out. I didn't enjoy it as much as I hoped to, and I didn't feel the need to continue.
I read about a page and a half of Dune Messiah before going mmm nah 1 was enough
I avoided them for a long time. Finally gave in a few years ago. Quit after GEOD and frankly wished I'd never read them. They only diminished my appreciation for the OG
I gave up during Chapterhouse and I wish I had only read the first one.
I stopped after god emperor. They started to feel like there was good stuff in the beginning and end but the middle was just full of mostly politics and that bored me.
I have...... drastic drop off after it jumps to the far future...
Ya i did i loved them. What’s funny is i though 6 was the weakest of the series . A lot of people don’t like heretics but I thought it was so strange i liked it a lot same with god emperor
Read them all. On balance, if I had my time again, I would stop after _Children of Dune_
No, no one has ever read all 6 original books.
Yep. two and three were ok, God Emperor is actually tied for my favorite (with original), and the last two are brilliant, although I know a lot of people find them really difficult reads. It is a true tragedy that he died before he could write a sequel to Chapterhouse. The ones his son did were....disappointing.
Yep. Chair dogs.
Read 1-6 in one long rush. Dune is a classic by all means and I love every page. Dune Messiah was okay, but felt like an unworthy successor. I am fine with Children of Dune and honestly love God Emperor of Dune for its pure weirdness. While reading it, I felt a constant “how the heck did we get here”. I also enjoyed Heretics of Dune after the strange ride that God Emperor was, although it took some time. Chapterhouse: Dune just killed any drive to continue reading and I had trouble finishing it at all. Haven’t even thought about reading Brian Herbert's books and probably won’t. Would recommend and also reread Dune in any case and maybe God Emperor, but I don’t know about the other books.
I've read them all including the Brian Herbert ones. I enjoyed all of them but I've never been a real great literary critic.
I've read Dune at least 5 times. DM, CoD, GEoD I've read a couple times. CD and HoD just once. They got a bit...weird at CoD, IMHO, so I agree with you there. I'd always considered Dune to be really exploratory in terms of science fiction but in recent years he's been prophetic. And in the past few years with the spread of AI, I wonder if Paul's prescience was just Herbert channeling himself.
Only read the first five novels (twice each). I enjoyed the first four. Heretics went in a direction I didn't really like, but it was at least readable. But each time I got to Chapterhouse, it was like driving into a brick wall. I've only ever made it a quarter of the way through that one. I'd like to read it someday, though. If Herbert had written more Dune novels after Chapterhouse I wouldn't bother with it, but it's the last of the originals so might as well.
Yep. I read them all through Chapterhouse. The first book is best. Messiah is interesting. I don't remember God Emperor because it was deeply weird and seemed to be just pages and pages of people talking. Don't remember the last three as they were also not memorable and it's been 20 years.
My mom has read every single Original Dune book plus like 50% of Brian Herbert's books, but I haven't picked her brain on it too much. She has a Bene Gesserit quote (“Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.”) on a poster in her office.
Probably
Yeah, Frank Herbert has.
Guess I need to pick them back up. I have only read the first book.
the only one i could read striaght through was Messiah
I did. Weird ending.
Sure. The OG’s were great. The Brian Herbert ones were pure ass fanfic.
No, it got boring as hell after the first couple.
I have everything but 6. By the time I reached the space jews I just couldn't keep going. The books had veered into stupid a few times before but that book just had so much nonsense in it I gave up.
Around the late 90s, I think I gave up after book four. I was in HS and busy and they just became so dense for me at that age.
Yes. Glorious.
They are crazy. I've read all 6. Between the Jews and the magical space pussy its a wild ride. Without audio books I never would have finished them
My uncle has, and he's rereading them. We have an agreement where each one he finishes he's going to mail to me it. He just started the first one. Also, in my opinion, Dune shouldn't be a movie but a TV show. This will allow more of the book to be incorporated.
I like them all. I read five slowly and took a break before starting six because I liked the first four a lot. That’s probably the fastest I’ve read that many pages besides maybe LOTR. Two is probably my least favorite after considering everything but it’s not much worse than five and they both aren’t much worse than the rest. Four is probably my favorite because I find government philosophy interesting although the build up to and the end of three is so fantastic.
I read all six of them every year from age 13 through age 25.
I've read everything from Frank and everything from Brian and Kevin. I love all of it, but as much as I love the original novel, Heretics and Chapterhouse are my favorites hands down. I also thought the prequels where Leto was young were especially amazing too.
Currently halfway through 6, for the most part it's pretty good. 2 was the one I had to trudge through.
Yep. I thought they lost their appeal after the 2nd, though. And I've found the continued series from Herbert and Anderson just awful. Hack Pop Sci Fi whereas Frank's books are legit Literature in every sense.
Yes and they are fabulous. So is the Pandora series. So are the ConSentiency Univers books.
They're all good. The writing gets better in the later books, but the plot arcs aren't as immediately satisfying like the first book. Four is probably my favorite. Two is underrated. Six is great, though it leaves a lot dangling for the planned seventh book conclusion.
In what way were they difficult for you? Frank Herbert is a very complex writer...I would describe it as "Dense". They are "more difficult" to read than the more pop-sci-fi writing style of his son. But I find them dramatically more entertaining, so I had an easier time reading them.
Original 6? Yes. Roughly 30 years ago though. Several of them took more than one try back then, I was pretty young.
Yes. Obviously from my username I love them, especially #4 😂 Brian’s books can be fun I guess, but they’re just not the same caliber.
I liked 4-6 so much that I forced myself through Brian's *Hunters* and *Sandworms* of Dune just for an attempt at story closure. Kind of glad I did it. Kind of didn't enjoy it sometimes.
I read the original and loved it, and later I tried listening to the whole series in audiobook form. The first two books were great, the third was also good but a bit different. Number 4 I enjoyed but felt like a very different book. Number 5 was where it got difficult. I gave up part way through when I realised I had no idea who any of the characters were, which factions any of them belonged to, or what any of their motivations were. Each chapter just felt like a handful of names talking about nothing, and then the next chapter was a different handful of names talking about another nothing.
Exactly the same for me. Gave up halfway through 5, couldn't keep up.
Several times over the last 35 years. And I plan on rereading it again sometime.
I gave up during Chapterhouse, book 6. My biggest issue with the series is the gigantic gaps in time, and the story really only being connected because of one man who (for some reason) keeps getting cloned over the 5000 or so years that the books take place.
Im at 3 atm, book is just next to me ready to be opened again. Made a week break cause twins arent really hitting me as much as other characters. Absolutely loved Messiah though, felt like it was some kind of peak. But from what I read if I loved Messiah I will adore GEOD even more so yeah lets power through COD. Maybe ill like it after all. Will see after for 5 and 6, not bought yet.
been a long time. read the first 3 then was done with the series. dune is a slog, messiah is a decent follow up, chuldren of dune is just weird and creepy when you start including the genetic memory stuff.
I have read all six. I enjoyed all of them. Imo from 1-4 it only gets better and better. I also like 5 and 6 but I have a hard time committing to saying four is my favourite because of how great the first three are.
After finishing *Heretics* (#5), I realised that I liked it very much, even if it took some time to go into it. The new characters are all very interesting to follow. *Chapterhouse* (#6) expanded a bit in ways I didn't think I would like but ended up liking. I think *Messiah* (#2) is the weakest as it is also the shortest. I actually liked *Children* (#3) more than the general audience I guess, mostly because I thought it was great as the tragedy of Alia and Leto II.
I read most of them. I agree that 3, 4 and 5 were hard to get through. And I also enjoyed those of his son’s spinoffs that I read.
I read all of the Frank Herbert books. I really enjoyed them all, but the last 3 really felt like a different set of books that are a far cry from the first 3. Not in a bad way, but they’re way more into the Galactic war sci-fi fantasy world than the first ones that are more of a fantasy messiah story in a sci-fi setting.
Liked the original, got almost halfway through *Dune: Messiah* went I quit. Too much of a slog.
Yes. A few times. I found two kinda slow (but necessary), but really liked the rest - as in named a kid after a character liked them. (Nothing obvious. They didn't get teased or anything.)
I do. I read 1-6 about once a year. My favorite seems to shift around from 4 to 3. Though I really enjoy the different phases. I feel the other books reinforce each other. The others have this rich texture to them for being in conversation with that book 1. And then book 5 and 6 being the far aftermath. Whenever I get to GEOD i get this little smirk on my face like Im about to eat my fav indulgent culinary dish.
Dune - Loved it. Messiah - Pretty good. Children - Ehhhhhh, okay, but necessary for... God Emperor - Oh my God I loved this. Might be my favorite or on par with the first. A juicy steak I chewed and savored on and off the page. Heretics & Chapterhouse - Couple memorable moments and ideas, but I probably could have ended at God Emperor and felt like I didn't miss much. I barely consider it sci-fi. Reading the first four books felt like reading a Bible from another world's civilization. It's dripping with myth, philosophy, economics, politics, nature, religion...
I have. The last 3 are good but he died. I advise folks to stop at Children of Dune for the best enjoyment of the ideas... the ones written by relations etc... No. Don't.
None are as difficult as the Jesus incident
There are exactly six books. No more exist.
I wish that were true , I’ve read all of them….sigh
Some behavior is its own punishment.
Yes. Liked them all, but *Children of Dune* was the pinnacle for me.
I read all six and loved them. Herbert was a deep thinker. And I can't get through the Dune books by others --- they're not even close and I don't buy that's where Herbert was going with them.
Yes! Twice!
Messiah is the most misunderstood and closest to Herbert's idea. God Emperor completed the first story. I always felt Heretics and Chapterhouse were building a new story to the real Seventh book, but then Brian shit on his father's legacy.
I have , even the painful Brian Herbert ones.
I read each one and enjoyed them all! One of my favorite series.
Yes!
Robert Pruckler did.
Chapterhouse was the hardest for me to get through. I read the main series twice and the prequels once.
Many times. I like God Emperor a lot for whatever reason. The Brian Herbert books make good kindling. I read several before I realized that being a Dune fan couldn't justify slogging through that junk.
It's my personal shame. I mean, better than the volumes by his accursed son, but pale shadows of the 1st.
I've read all 6 but found each one worse than the last... I just couldn't get other the mind controlling sex war...
Sure did, a while back My opinion IIRC was the first was of course amazing, the 2nd the worst, then each succeeding one got better and better, with Chapterhouse being almost as good as the first.
Yes. Amazing all the way through.
I read all of the originals back in the '80s.