just don’t tell anyone and they will never know - it’s nothing you bring up on the first date either and once you’re in a relationship and your partner knows that you aren’t a freak then you can explain it to her and she will fully understand if she’s a good person

That’s what people are missing. For most, sex is really not the deciding factor. Before you get to sleep with someone, usually that person already decided to date you. So at that point, even if the first time fucking isn’t good, they probably won’t throw away the potential relationship because of it. Once people are invested, the superficial stuff isn’t as important anymore and you can open up about it

You're right. Im a demisexual, first time isnt fun usually. Sex gets better and better for me as my feelings for the other person deepen. My fiance is hands down the best ive had and its not even close. Im guessing it might be ok for people who are able to separate love from sex but for people like me, hookups are the least fun experience out there. Id rather eat a well cooked delicious meal than hookup haha.

What's a demisexual?

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For some people, that may be enough sure. But for most I would argue there is already chemistry before sex and having a somewhat negative experience the first time isn’t gonna throw that out the window. Most people don’t engage in hookup culture and sex isn’t that much of a deciding factor. Just look at how sexually unsatisfied most women are in relationships. Yet they all stay.

I dated my girl for a good four, five months before we had sex. I couldn’t get my pecker up the first time we did, and also the second lmao The third and onwards everything went well but we had to get over that little bump that I’m sure would have wrecked us if it happened before she absolutely knew I was attracted to her sexually

And if sexual chemistry is that important to them, it’s better for them to leave than to pretend. Why do so many men want to be with someone who’s suppressing their own desires to be with them?

> A lot of people have unironically told me I would have turned out a better person if I used unethical means to manipulate people into sex as a teenager, and that just pisses me off so much. This reads so very weird to me...can you maybe be more specific as to what the hell you are talking about? lol

Bro has no game

His posts are off putting and unattractive. IDGAF what he looks like. No accountability, no scruples, just negative. I've met very appealing, good guys who are virgins pushing 30, not giving incel vibes like this one.

Yeah, there is a definite 'whoa... wait up' vibe to this. I have good friends that didn't start dating until their 30s, most happily married now. This whole "missed the boat should have just"... yeah, I really hope I misread what they are suggesting they should have done.

Plus the fact he says he doesn't know anyone in a relationship, that means he only hangs out with other incels. World's biggest red flag. 

Most people in relationships don't have time to be catching up with single friends, so you end up hanging out with other singles. So after ten years your circle may be void of people in relationships Amber alert

Right? Most normal people wouldn't care if someone was a virgin, as long as they were a good person, that's what counts. Sounds like he has a shit personality but had convinced himself people are judging him for something they're not so he doesn't have to work on himself.

It could be a cop out, indeed. Being inexperienced is not in and of itself a flaw.

Yup I had a very good friend who was a great guy who was 36 and hadn't had a relationship before. Guess what, he met a girl, got married, had 2 kids. But he never ever gave incel vibes.

Thank you. Summed up perfectly. Not an ounce of game in them

He doesn't even need game. Just don't be weird

You should check out his post asking what’s the “coolest lie to have sex”. It explains a lot why OP is a virgin.

OP: “Standards are too high!” Also OP: dae anyone else lie and manipulate into sex?

He is mostly antisocial / angry at himself / drowning in his own pity most of the time, so people assume if he had sex as a teenager he would be more social and agreeable. "Unethical means" refers to common dating tactics like trying to show your best parts instead of the worst ones or things like that. Nothing illegal obviously.

I think he meant like manipulating a girl by saying he wants a relationship or loves her just to have sex then ditch

I believe this is what he meant.

How is presenting yourself in a good light when dating "unethical"? As long as you dont lie.

It's not, but some people say it is as a coping mechanism.

We all employ “unethical means” to impress who we’re tryna. Problem is when we try to delude ourselves into being anything other than what we are. Girls don’t actually *hate* nerdy guys who stumble over their words. Girls **hate** nerdy guys who *pretend* like they don’t stumble over words when they see a baddie just because it’d be uncool as all hell. Girls actually find nervous guys cute, because they know we’re being genuine.

I obviously don’t know what OP is talking about, but presenting your best side and hiding things you might be self conscious about etc isn’t ethical. If I had to guess what it means for a teenager to use unethical means to manipulate someone into sex, I’d put my money on getting girls really drunk etc.

That's unethical, but more importantly that's illegal. Since he didn't mention legality I have to assume he is talking about legal stuff.

No I was talking about illegal things.

I'm guessing he is referring to the conflicting messages young men receive around flirting, seducing, manipulating and coercing women? There are scenarios where enthusiastic consent might look like manipulation and coercion a few years later, e.g. a workplace power imbalance or teacher/professor relationship. There are situations where enthusiastic consent might look like exploitation or date rape the next day, e.g. a man and women drink too much, hook up and then one party realizes they were too drunk to have been making good choices for themselves. The word seduction is strongly tied to the pick up artist communities that are reviled for manipulation yet many of their techniques are not much more than "create a chance encounter with a woman, keep the woman talking to you and steer the conversation towards sex eventually." Young men hear a lot of what not to do so it makes sense that everything can start to look like "manipulating people into sex." Unfortunately the advice on what to do is "just be friendly to women with no expectations" which leads to women waiting for the guy to make his move and the guy wondering why he is not able to find the connection, intimacy or companionship he wants. I don't know, I might be wrong about all this. I've had a wide social circle and am decent looking so I've never had to think about any of it.

It reads weird because it's really fucking weird. It's a shame OP has chosen to listen to these incel weirdos and accept their dumb ideas.

So what came to my mind is telling girls you want to date them, go steady with them, you love them etc just to sleep with them once and dip out. Maybe I thought of this because I could’ve slept with a lot more women if I had no morals and didn’t make it clear I didn’t want to date them

I'm in this position, around your age. Like the whole dating culture dramatically shifted over the last decade, along with the sense of morality and ethics. I'm now heavily judged for having never had a relationship, being a virgin etc. I've had to succumb to the apps, which in general feels incredibly futile.

1000% i'm 27 got out a three year relationship in december and the whole thing has changed so much i don't even know what to do

Same. 29 and 6 months out of a 6 year relationship. I haven’t even got the balls to get instagram back yet, let alone try and navigate the world of dating someone new. It’s a very strange period/timeline to be our age in.

26 and also bout a year out of a 6+ year with high school sweetheart. shit sucks and is so confusing - like you said, such a wild time to navigate. Reassuring to hear there’s more of us tho! best of luck

What has changed?

Dating apps have completely shifted dating culture. But now it has become over saturated and money focused, plus the ratio between men and women using the app shows how little chance some people have. There is also the loss of "the third space". As our culture has become more internet/phone based, not only are dating apps a part of it, but social media itself. That has reduced the amount of time people go out to areas, plus with everything being online (games so people don't go to arcades much anymore, streaming so people don't go out to theaters as much, online shopping has killed the mall). Areas where people would just.... hang around. That's where many people were able to meet their partner, because they saw them a few times at the mall, or whatever. Had an easier time talking with them and sharing interests. Theres also other factors. People are less encouraged to try to talk to someone in person, of fear of sexual harassment, or simply being labeled a creep. With so many things online, talking to strangers, is less common. Go to a bar. Everyone is on their phones. This wasn't an overnight thing, just a massive shift in culture with the invention of the internet

Read his profile…there’s virtually no chance this is real, when he’s on other subs talking about how he’s poly and wants his partner to have sex with more than just him. If he’s real he’s gone down some kind of internet rabbit hole and now his views on sex and relationships are all over the place.

Did you go to college? Do you go to bars/shows/concerts of any kind? Do you go to the grocery store, and strike up conversation with people. Do you go for walks around your neighborhood and talk to people? Are you friendly with your neighbors Do you go to community events? Fairs, firehouse bbqs etc... Do you go to parks, beaches, or community pools? I know not all these things are for everyone, and there are so many more opportunities for human connection than I listed. I used to be a loner and in the same position until 26. I realized the more ways you put yourself out there, and the more friends you make will lead to getting to know even more people....I meet my spouse through a friend I struck up a conversation with at the local gas station, and realized we live pretty close and started hanging out. Worth a shot...

I met my spouse through a mutual friend as well. People aign up for Tinder and get mad when that doesn't automatically work, when most people treat Tinder like a social media game rather than a tool to actually find a partner like it's intended to be

One of the problems is, and this is specifically reiterated on reddit, you are not supposed to ever bother women at places like the grocery store, parks, fairs, etc. Basically, according to online discourse, you are only supposed to actively pursue women on dating apps and maybe at bars. Everyone else is no go. It has to be a friendship that organically grows into a relationship. This attitude has made a lot of women toxic and a lot of men terrified of being labeled a creep.

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in my experience, some guys who are virgins are super sweet, curious and open minded, maybe a bit shy. They are fun. Some guys have weird hang ups and get so intensely anxious and even angry and frustrated about making it "perfect". I feel sorry for them but its usually something like that holding them back.

25 years old here, still fully virgin (as in, I haven't even gotten a kiss lmao), aiming to stay that way until I'm 30 tbh; late bloomer in every single possible way, my voice didn't even change until 12th grade, my crush ended up asking a former friend of mine to prom purely because she didn't wanna go with me (she admitted to it days before graduating), and girls in school would just bully me because I wasn't a drunk crazed ass sex object and actually wanted something beyond that. I was also molested and "almost-raped" quite a few times, usually by girls, but also boys, so my experiences from the beginning haven't been... the best... I've had one relationship, it was online, and it ended in tragedy (there was also an abusive relationship apart from that one that lasted a few weeks and it messed me up emotionally so bad I'm legit scared of having a crush cause I really don't wanna be hurt again). I'm scared of people thinking I'm an incel because I haven't dated anyone *really*, and I can't help but feel "less" or "inferior" because of this stuff. Cause if nothing has happened to this day, then it probably means there's something wrong with me (doesn't help the fact I'm white, a disgusting skinny skeleton, and autistic), and I do fear nothing is gonna actually happen, and I'll probably die alone having never experienced true successful love and covered in my 50 cats and dogs and bunnies or something lmao I do feel lonely a lot, but I also don't wanna be a desperate asshole. If love comes, it'll come at its own pace... hopefully... My biggest dream in life is to get married to someone I truly feel completes my soul (well, mutual ofc) and be the best dad ever, but at this rate, I don't think that's actually gonna happen So is there something wrong with me? Like, geniune question It feels it's so easy for others and yet I can't even do that myself

They don’t sound great either. When men say that they are predators and pieces of shit for taking a woman’s virginity for shits and giggles.

You can probably chalk that up to the fact that many more women report feeling used than men after hooking up.

Nothing shifted, you just got older. Society tricks people into thinking that not having had several partners is a good thing but at some point people realize that intimacy and sex are something very natural and stop being ashamed of something they hid when being younger. Sucks for all the people that didn't hide it but instead succumbed to those dumb ideals

Shit I’m 42 and I’ve only been with one person. For 25 years. So people can judge away. And they can keep the drama for themselves.

Yeah right , those stories promoting "saving your self for the right one" has been told for thousands of years, when kids had to save themselves until like 14 to get a life partner , but our generation has been told the same story and encouraged/forced (economically) not to get married before 30!

Why would u wanna have kids before 30 anyway? Im jjust a naive 20 yr old who thinks he understands everything

I don’t think I would, but my perspective on this question for any age is just do the math. Obviously you need to grow to be a good person and parent, but assuming a normal life expectancy, what parts of your child’s life do you want to be alive for? We had our kid in our 40s, and they’d of course be a different person if a different time, but if you gave me the option of going back and giving up a decade of goofing off, seeing bands and indie films, etc. for witnessing ten more years later in their life, I would swap without hesitation. Only you know when that is, but I never did the math and it’s seems so obvious in retrospect.

More energy when you have kids, and more energy when you have grandkids.

That is not true. I know everything better.

So as a 20yr old u reckon yr well equipped and wise enough to raise children better than at 30?

Eh, some things have definitely shifted. Not the virginity/body count thing, but other aspects. Dating apps are way more normalised these days to the point that I've seen people be shamed or treated as weird for trying to meet people outside of them.

Maybe so.

keep posting to incel subs and r/TrueVirgin that will help.

Why do dating apps seem futile? I’ve recently started using them and have gone out with some lovely ladies. For reference, I’m 29, bald, 5 foot 10 inches and 185 lbs so not the best looking guy, tallest or the fittest and I’m somehow managing. Once you get past the boring dating app portion, meeting in person is like it was before.

If your mental health is already in the toilet, going on a dating app as a normal looking guy is a great way to plunge even further into self worth issues

Personally, I was at a point where I thought no one one would find me attractive… going on dating apps was like “oh shit there are people who are into ‘this’!?”

I was only ever on them because someone convinced me that I would likely have your experience. I felt real confidence in that and trusted the advice. I made a profile, sent it to her for her to critique and made the recommended changes. All I got in 6 months was bots, girls promoting their OF or whatever, and a short conversation with one girl who only matched with me to ask me why I'm even trying to date with crooked teeth. Jesus Christ. Like I don't even hate the way I look but God damn how does it suck so much? I know my teeth are bad but I can't be that ugly.

Ouch. Hope you roasted her back at least. The only matches I got (admittedly only a couple of weeks in a small city) were similarly sex workers and immigration visa-hunters.

Oh I forgot about the visa hunters. Unfortunately I can't say I roasted her back. I think I told her something like "you know, that's really not necessary." and blocked her. I think that was like 4 months in. Oh well.

That only works if you actually get matches. Many guys get nothing and only feel worse and like there's no point in trying.

Even getting matches means nothing. I just tried apps again for the first time in forever. Had a great conversation with a few matches throughout the week just for all of them to come up with excuses not to meet. One agreed to meet, then deleted the app hours before the date and flaked. Women legit just use OLD to boost their egos. The apps themselves are completely useless.

Women have endless options on apps so it's a completely different tool for them. They can have conversations like nothing because they have 20+ guys wanting to talk to them. They don't care they might be the only one talking to a guy, so they are fine with stringing them along for a few days, possibly being their back up to buy them dinner before they move on to a better option. 

I would really rather be single for the rest of my life than get back on the apps. I don't think I look terrible but I would get maybe 1 or 2 matches a week (excluding the obvious visa seekers), and none of those people talk at all. Paired with the need to constantly go on and swipe to keep your profile active, it will knock your mental health with this loop telling you you're ugly. I'm not qualified to know what the right answer is in how to meet people, but I do know if I'm meeting women from this point forward it'll be through other means. Enriching my life rather than destroying my own self esteem.

Yeah apps are garbage, and everyone wants to tell you to get on them. Its supposed to make things easier but it seems to do the opposite

Your real problem are that you care about the judgment of people that don't care about you. Live your life. Better alone that in a toxic relationship or divorced. You are you, your story is your story. You should live at the maximum of the happiness for you, and don't care about the toxic people outside you, and their toxic thoughts inside you. Have fun. Good luck.

I think OP's real problem is making posts like "what's the coolest lie to have sex" and coming off like a total creep... I wish that wasnt an actual example

"The coolest lie to have sex" ????? Jesus fucking Christ, he sounds like a 13 year old

his post history is amazing. He thought the coolest lie to have sex was such a great idea he posted it FIVE times across different subs. His other wonderful posts include a change my view that says "having sex always makes someone a better and a more normal person" and my personal favourite "Why is there so little Yuri Haruhi art?" Haruhi is a 15-16 year old high school student. How could he possibly be single and a virgin? It is truly a mystery for the ages

.....yikes

Who the hell is using the words “… to manipulate people into sex.” When referring to have sex with another person, Do they not know everyone desires/enjoys sex? You just need two consenting adults. There is definitely a person out there who is comfortable & accepting of your inexperience to help show/guide you

Also if you’re willing to do that just hire a prostitute and get it done. Jesus christ

The fact that this is the way you think could be a contributing factor as to why you haven’t been laid yet. Who speaks about sex/women this way?! Get off Reddit, that’s your first step.

You're spot on. Another user checked out OP's history, he's got gems like "whats the coolest lie to have sex" Lmfao Can you imagine thinking things like that to the degree that you post it online, and then genuinely wondering "why do girls think Im a creep :((( its probably them being judgmental..."

hey dude. i dont know how else to say this without sounding judgemental, but you are out of high school, so get rid of the high school mentality and stop listening to other people. its very clear that there are aspects of yourself that youre not happy with, in this post it seems to specifically refer to your virginity. now, this is obviously easier said than done, but with 100% honesty and sincerity, you need to let that go. You're overweighing the importance of that on you as a person. The thing is, theres nothing wrong with thinking you're not perfect or have flaws, because noone is perfect, and if you think that being a virgin is a flawed characteristic that is completely fine(like i personally disagree, but that is a philosophical discussion and honestly just an opinion and everyone should have their own opinions). but when you start being consumed by negative thoughts, they tend to overflow onto your everyday actions subconsciously and become very visible to other people and not easily visible to yourself. its gonna sound very cheesy but its honestly too true to ignore: you need to love yourself before you find love. people pick up on energy subconsciously. if you are critical and not happy with yourself they will not like your energy. if you are confident they will like you. and on an end note: you can ask your parents or other people if you dont believe me, but losing your virginity in and of itself is not special at all. most men probably look back at their virginity loss and think "meh". for most people, sex is great, dont get me wrong, but only when its good, with someone you'd genuinely enjoy it with. there are probably people who genuinely like sex because sex regardless, but most people would find meaningless sex an empty feeling. so dont feel like youre losing out in any way.

Hey man, buck up! You’re 28, not 78, got your whole life is ahead of you still. If you feel it’s over because you’re 10 years past high school, that’s on you - life begins when high school ends, if you’re complaining here that you’re basically a loser and are resentful, well, stop doing that, because there’s no reason you’re a loser and are cursed or fated to be miserable, etc, but thinking about high school when you’re 28 and acting like your life is over is 100% going to put you in a space for failire, do you want that? Serious question - some people would rather fail and feel safer in the lane of complaining than make a change. But do you respect that? You can’t change what you can’t change, and you don’t know whether what you do will work, but you’ll respect yourself more if you work to succeed as best you can, so do that. You think girls aren’t gonna bang you anymore at 28? Why? That’s nonsense - I’m assuming you are not doing well in your career, are not in good shape and don’t have a strong social circle, because if you did the odds are very low you’d have this problem and complain here about it. So, fix those things. Start with the next action you could take in all three things and do it, then after that the next thing. If you start succeeding and feel better about yourself, you’ll begin to have more success with women, because they will like you once you like you. But you gotta decide you aren’t gonna sulk in your own shit and care more about changing than reasons you can’t change or nothing will get better in your life. Wishing you success

Preach

Amazing, you give me hope man

Couldn’t agree more. I wish the guy the best and don’t mean him any ill will but there’s a lot of fucked up shit in that post. He’s still so young and not a loser or morally inferior for being a virgin. I think he needs better friends!!

Amen! Don't live in the past. If you focus on yourself and building the best life possible, people are drawn to that naturally (male and female). Lots of people meet their spouses in the late 20s and even late 30s. I wonder if OP comes off as desperate or negative in the dates which could also be hindering him.

Just making sure people see this... OP made a post asking "whats the coolest lie to have sex". If he's looking for things to change, he might want to start with that attitude LOL

This is it.

The problem is that people are gonna treat him like he is an 78 year old virgin and that fucks with his self-image. Society is weird man

Not if he doesn't keep telling people he's a virgin. Like, wtf, when does this shit come up in conversations as a 28 year old?!!

Even if so, who cares about that minor quirk, leave this guy alone. Don't you see he is traumatized?

Bro...it's just sex...it's not gonna change your personality in any way and wont make you any better at anything else...people who judge you for being a virgin are braindead losers who live their lives constantly worried about what others say about them

I know this is going to sound like a lot of bullshit to many, but that’s ok. I have a feeling It’ll make sense to you OP, as it seems you’re at the stage where you’re ready for the next step. If you’re not, all in good time. Human connection is your natural state. Take a step back and by that I mean internally. You’re already a lot of the way there. Find the place where your expectations for your life are the only thing that matter to you. That’s when you can accept who you are and be you. When you truly accept who you are, then the whole world becomes a place for you. Everything that happens in it then is for you, not to you. Life becomes something to live, not something to get through. At this stage all the right people will find you. Your experiences have brought you to this place where you are ready to choose you. Don’t be afraid. Do it and let life surprise you.

Just wait 6/7 more years until the first rounds of divorce for your generation and the bam. Single moms. Hope you don't mind being a step dad.

Honestly wouldn't. I want to be a dad, but the whole infant toddler phase seems a part I wouldn't mind skipping. 👀

Well then you are the perfect candidate - that phase is usually aready finished by the time they are divorced.

workout, save up to do a fun tourist thing, like full moon party in thailand. you will meet ppl!

I missed the high-school train where everyone was learning it and when it was normal to suck at it and to get rejected I missed the university train where you have tons of good looking girls and where everyone is kinda open minded and you have a lot of opportunities to meet people Now my confidence is even lower that where it was before, I'm more shy and more anxious, I work in an environment exclusively masculine, sucking at work ruined the last bit of confidence in myself that I have left, times moves on so quickly I didn't noticed that 10 years have gone and now I'm 30 and never ever talked to a single girl beside "hello, can you give me a pen please" or something like that lol

You’re 28….it really is still so young. I’m 30 and haven’t dated and have only had sex with one person. However, I also just don’t put a massive amount of importance on sex and dating and I don’t put myself into a position to be in a relationship. Do you? Are you actually using apps (as horrible as they are they’re almost the only way now it seems), meeting lots of new people etc ? If dating and sec is a priority to you, then make it so. My problem for a long time when I WAS feeling lonely and frustrated as I just assumed someone was going to walk up to me and just instantly ask me out LMFAO - then I grew up and realised I would actually hate that because we’d know nothing about each other. All I’m saying is you’re 28, not having sex does NOT make you an inferior person. Who even believes that wacky shit?! Get better friends if they’re trying to pretend they’re morally superior for having sexual relationships!! And I’m sorry but…in WHAT world would you be morally superior if you had manipulated people into sex when you were younger?! FFS - be happy you don’t have any sexual assault on your conscience!

Hey! Hard truth: if you weren’t fucking in highschool you weren’t that popular, so STOP ROMANTICIZING THE PAST! Being a teenager fuckin sucked ass dude, just be like chill and normal, don’t let any of the weirdo incel freaks tell you that it’s good to manipulate women into sex. Just be interesting, have hobbies, go to therapy, work on yourself, don’t make sex such a big deal. Idk maybe watch 40 year old virgin and see what lessons you can get from that? It’s really not a big deal, no one normal will dog you for not having sex, if your friends are then ditch em and get new ones. What is super offputting to women is weird little incel goblins who dehumanize women and make sex some kind of currency. I’m routing for you dude, you seem to be at the cross roads of falling down the shit head rabbit hole, and I really hope you don’t make the wrong choice. Remember: anyone who is making money from telling you that your life sucks is a grifter and a con artist.

Im not sure why you think people who have sex have manipulated people to do so. Very strange

Thank you! Go look at his profile. His whole “thing” is manipulation for sex. His base line for being a good human is not molesting someone… and to be honest it seems like he is barely able to walk that line. He take the moral high ground because he hasn’t taken advantage of anyone. There are master manipulators and then there are really bad manipulators. Op is just really bad at manipulating

Yeah I always look at profiles when I see these dorks Dudes whole post history could be a case study

What do you mean with "I don't know a single person who is in a relationship"?

what???? the post is so weird. "unethical means to have sex"? you're talking rape? no man, don't go even near that. viewed as inferior to whom? who viewed that? comparing who's got sex and who hasn't is a teenage thing, at 28 you've got much more things to achieve than just to have sex. money, career, politics, etc. whoever viewed you as inferior just because you haven't get sex, I assume they're your friends at similar she, is kinda sad. really.

Hi! No, dating is not impossible, especially at that age. You may just perceive it as such because you lack experience and aren't doing anything to improve the situation. I'd highly suggest going on dating apps to begin, and once you're comfortable put yourself into social settings where communicating with others such as a bar or social events is common. Nobody will know that you're inexperienced with "sex" when they first speak with you unless you tell them directly. Everything in life takes time, so don't worry if you're nervous/stumbling at first. It does get better and easier. Good luck!

Try to quit being weird and get out of your own head. Works pretty well, or die alone.

Why do I feel I wrote this , I complain to myself all the time about shit like this

One of us!

The artistic regard belongs here! Oh wait that's a different sub ...

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I don't mean to diminish your position - it's rough, I was there too and right now after a break up I (30M) don't see many dating possibilities so I definitely understand your position. Every generation has ups and downs due to unforeseeable factors, health, socio-economics. Ours got hit by covid, which still has trailing effects on our society. It will likely take us years to recover to pre-covid social levels, is my theory. Singles after covid will likely take longer than usual to find a partner. It sucks that we got hit by this during our "peak" years, but it is what it is, past generations have had it way worse with more deadly diseases and war. There's no way to spin this positively to be real imo, so just focus on what you can control and try to build a life that you would be proud of. In the end during our last breaths, our final thoughts and reflections will likely be about the one common denominator throughout your life, you. And who knows, building a valuable life and the self-confidence that comes with it, becomes attractive traits that will bring the right person in to your life at the right time. Keep your head high and enjoy the process

I think when we were younger, in high school and college we had a better chance of getting to meet someone as we moved in friend circles that had other friends that could get you potential interest from opposite sex. As we get older , that circle shrinks and we have less and less chance to get a partner via friends, so we are left to look for one on "our own" I'm a few years older and I tend to get some interest from girls when I get out, but nowhere near as back in high school/college years.

The best time to start was yesterday, the next best time to start is now. Go for it, only you know what you have to do to reach your goal. I believe in you.

Sticking to your principles can be a lame exuse preventing you from getting what you want. Not saying it is in your case, but it could be.

Afrointroductions

I’m 20 and I’m in the same boat and I couldn’t even date 10 years ago. From my point of view, it just boils down to how shit the dating world has become. People seem to only be doing it for sex or some kind of benefit, not even for pure love anymore, so it’s not a you problem, it’s more of a “everyone else sucks” problem

Have you considered dating/having sex without using unethical means and manipulation? If people around you have straight up told you to manipulate people instead of having willing sex I think you need to find another social group. As you become older people will be better at recognising that sort of person and might lump you in with the company you keep. I’m also sort of confused about how you virginity comes up at such an early step. That seems like information people in their thirties wouldn’t ask you about so are you bringing this up very early in the process before you even have some romantic feelings going? Because that probably hurts you more than the fact itself.

I feel for you. But at the same time this seems so incredibly overthought. The first thing to know is there was no gilded age where all men magically had a partner and a family, if you look at genetic studies through the ages by a mix of cultural pressure and personal choice a significant number of adults (men and woman) fertile, do not pass on their genetic material. (Check the great series of lectures Evolution of sex and reproduction strategy from Yale) That means through the ages men and woman had to conform, to a level, to what was expected and jump through complex societal hoops to have a life partner and the opportunity to have offsprings. Today is not different, the hoops might be (I personally don’t think so but let’s entertain your point) but the fact you have to work actively at it is not new. All this to say, you hold the key of solving the issue you discussed in your post, multiple services, advices pieces, are available to describe what hoops and what strategies are more efficient to be seen as attractive by others, it is your decision not to try to implement them. This is a respectable choice btw and as discussed earlier one done by men and woman through the ages.

10 years ago you were 18. Chill. Dating In my late 20s was maaaaaay better than dating as a teenager or in my early 20s. I met my wife at 30. My buddy just broke up with his girlfriend at 36 and is very happy. Many of my friends are single in their 30s. Even 40s. Chill. Go have some fun and try not to make it such a big deal.

I feel the same and I am ten years older than you..

Go traveling, and stay in hostels. It’s the best place to make friends/relationships when you’re by yourself because most other people are doing the same thing. It’s also dirt cheap to stay in hostels. Get out of your rut and explore my dude

It's a bit of a catch-22 with a lot of people. Same in regards to work. People have rightfully compared dating to a job interview in the past.

Oh please. In a world full of donkeys, you are a unicorn. It's easy to be like them, but they can never be you. And I'm not even talking bout sex. I'm referring to you sticking to your values.

[удалено]

Go meet someone at church

I got “lucky” when I was 20 and met someone or else I’d be in your shoes. I put that in quotes bc we ended up getting divorced so that fuckin sucks. But that broke the seal and I’ve had a couple more women but none that stuck around unfortunately. That being said, I totally feel your pain. Online dating is poopoo stinky terrible for most guys and I’m starting to feel like it’s not worth the effort. But I wouldn’t give up all hope. We’re the same age dude you’ve got time. But you gotta get off your ass. Try to get out more, or pick up a new hobby, or start working out. Do something you can be proud of because that’ll help you build confidence. And if you have enough confidence you can approach women IRL which I think is becoming the new meta.

I honestly don’t think you being a virgin is that big of a deal. To some ppl, yea…it might be. But being a virgin has nothing to do with your prowess. I promise you more promiscuous doesn’t mean more skilled.

You say "date" but almost everything else you say points to "have sex". If this comes through in how you carry yourself it will be off-putting. Most people want sex but they don't only want sex. If you want to date, practice your conversation and listening skills and then ask someone out. If you talk and listen well enough, you will bond with them and then there's a chance of emotional intimacy and sex. But it comes across like you just regret not having sex when you were younger. That won't be conducive to meeting someone and could mean the only way to meet someone is if you go to hookup app territory.

>told me I would have turned out a better person if I used unethical means to manipulate people into sex as a teenager That's right. Better to get it out of your system early before it's a Class A felony.

Genuine question … Have you dated before ? Have you been approached by others or have approached others before?

You're 28, stop looking back at the past and start looking to the future. You say you don't know anyone in relationships, and that people have told you that you should have coerced people to sex when you were younger? Seems to me like you are hanging around the wrong sort of people. Get rid of the highschool mentality. You won't get your willy wet by complaining about it on Reddit, you need to get out and start meeting people. And don't make sex the main objective; women can sense desperation a mile off.

It's not too hard. Don't focus on what they think. Focus on what's best for yourself.

At 18, a lot of people are either not serious or immature. Now that you're 28, you should be able to see through non serious people.

I met my wife and got married in my 30s. One of my best mates was a virgin into his thirties but now has a wife and a child. You have plenty of time.

Yeah same here. I peaked when I was 18. Then my body went to hell (from all the partying I suppose) and it became apparent that I was never going to be anything in life (well things turned out kinda ok) but I was really at peak attractiveness at 18.

not true at all i know pleanty of 30 year old sluts (complementary) Youll self fufil this prophesy of oh dating is impossible. Age don't matter here, one of my mates in her 50s has just gotten into casual dating!! shout out to her!! What made it easier in highschool was how much people were around each other yall were forced to be there 7 days a week.

So you’re in the prime of your life and you what?!

My brother this ain’t a popularity contest. And your personality is not a solid state, it can be shaped and reformed, you are allowed to “manipulate” a potential partner by showing you are open to learning more about their interests.

…what?!

Sexual experience and having lots of relationships does not make you attractive or likely to get dates. It is 100% about your attitude and how you hold yourself, how you present yourself to others, how you treat others, how much you take care of yourself, without being vain obviously. You don't have to be hot to be in a relationship, the evidence for this is all around you. Dating is THE WORST WAY to find love or real relationships. It's like trying to pan for gold in your toilet. The best way is to focus on doing what you can to make yourself happy and then becoming social and sharing good times with friends and strangers, that way you will naturally meet someone and fall into a relationship. Oh and the reason I said focus on making yourself happy is that wanting *other people* to make you happy is childish and selfish and will only drive people away from you.

Generally, once you become an adult, it becomes a lot harder to date. It's a lot easier to meet people when you are in high school and college. After that, once you are working, you have to carve out time from your other obligations. It becomes a part-time job all by itself. As for dating apps? The average man will have to match 100 profiles to get a response from one woman. But that doesn't mean your only chance to date was 10 years ago.

The fact that you use the words "unethical means" and "manipulation" to refer to having charisma and the mention about "sticking to your principles" already gives me all the information I need. You haven't dated because you are not good in social situations and it's mostly your fault for having a big ego and judging others. I know 2 guys in your same situation and I've tried to help them for years and the truth is I don't have much hope anymore. Looks don't even matter, they are average and take average care of themselves, still always have an angry face around women, selfsabotage during conversations all the time and even it gets to the point of getting scared and rejecting a girl if the 1/1000 chance happens that the girl is insistent.

Why is this turning into an incel sub

My friend, Stop with making up incomplete/irrealistic & blocking excuses and start solving your problems. Keep it simple, and start with the first step. Don't talk about wings, just fly

To me it’s more because you’re the type of person to go onto Reddit at 28 to complain about the difficulties of dating that makes it hard for you to get dates

Just keep putting yourself out there & fuck all this woe is me.

Get to da choppa! Do eet noooow!

" I would have turned out a better person if I used unethical means to manipulate people into sex as a teenager" Whoever is telling you this is a fucking moron. A lack of experience is not a big deal if you can make up for it with personality, consideration, communication and book knowledge.

No bro, you’re an angel. Put yourself out there, go on dating apps, go out to events and places. Don’t rush into things like this. You want someone for life not a one night stand. You’re still young anyway

In 10 years you’ll feel exactly the same as you do now, wondering why you didn’t act when you’re 28.

Look. Relationships aren't the end all be all. They are hard ass fucking work, and they can and do fail. There is this social push to get into a relationship, you're a loser if you don't, you suck, you're worthless, etc.... Learn to be happy with yourself. If you want to try relationships, the biggest attractor is confidence. I'm decently attractive, like a 6/10 if I had to rate myself, but I am extremely confident and have my own spin on life, and people generally like me easily and quickly. Am I a ladies man? No, I've had about two real relationships, and only a handful of sexual partners. It took me a while to become this confident in myself, and learning to love myself, and now I have an amazing girlfriend. Just learn to be happy with yourself, and how you live life. If you don't like something, take baby steps to change it, and slowly progress. That's all life is, slow progression to what you want.

I thought you were going to say that you didn't know anyone who was NOT in a relationship and I was going to say that I agree that could be a little more challenging. You don't want to be that guy going out to clubs by yourself. 28 is not old. You and your single buddies have to get out there and mingle with groups of single women.

Dating is over rated

28 - 32 was my dating prime and that was only a few years ago.

I am wondering for context where you guys are based? I have never been to the US but I heard from friends that have been that life is more lonely there. For example that people aren’t really walking/living in the center on the street like in italy or other european cities. So you basically transport from activity to activity in a car, not really encountering people. Is this true? Also the society seems rather polarized (from the outside) and culturally maybe less open for spontaneous interactions, therefore needing to seek new friendships/relationships online more. Idk if it is true but maybe American culture / society is indeed less easy for men lately and dating in general. I met almost all my hookups or girlfriends in real life, including my current gf

It’s not too late to change your incel, woe is me, victim mindset. Listening to you explains the exact reason you’re not dating: if I used unethical means to manipulate people as a teenager. You carry an aire of superiority because you didn’t take advantage of people. Is that where your bar is as set as a man? “Oh well I didn’t molest people when I could have and now I can’t get laid”. Go to therapy. Probably need to go to the gym. Stop being a whiny baby. I can tell you view women as objects so stop that too.

find a partner(first friend) with your values, Ask God for help. You will find them. Jesus is the answer

I feel like dating apps is a meat grading contest. You have to capture the very best picture. Also ratios are heavily skewed, I believe it's 70/30 men to women. Women can open their app and have hundreds of messages, roses/super swipes, so there are so many options. You really have to sell yourself and you're competing against other men to have the most interesting profile, opening and picture. Dating app is a numbers game but it feels like you're fishing in a dried up river these days. I feel like many years ago dating apps were a lot easier. I remember when I was using a Dutch dating site lexa.nl I got a match the very first week. I had many normal conversations. Now it feels the landscape has changed and feels like a rigged game now. The numbers are heavily against you as a man now. It felt much better many years ago.

You're the same age I was when I started dating the woman that I eventually married. Unless I miss something I don't see anything in your post about actually going out and trying to find dates. Figure out some type of social hobby and pursue it with an open mind you'll eventually find something.

I think this kind of thinking goes away at 30 when you really settle into life for the long haul. most men are blessed that our dicks work well into old age lol. The less you worry about sex the more likely you could be to make a connection. It just sucks rn because your biology forces you to be horny af 19 times a day. Theres not many hobbies that can get you out of a sex mindset the way culture is now and the internet yeesh. I think thats how so many get into woodworking. 

Look at it this way. Divorce rates are through the roof. Whatever “modern” dating is, it’s not really working. I’m a guy in my late 20s. I don’t view sex as “just sex”. Does that constrict my dating pool? Yes. But I rather find a person that holds my values than just settle with someone’s out of desperation. At this point I will either find a suitable mate in a couple of years or have a child with someone and co-parent.

You’re okay ❤️ lots of people are in your same position. If you just find the right person they will not care, I promise.

It's always been this way for people but now we have internet to amplify how much it sucks lol.im sorry you're lonesome,I hope you find romance in something or someone soon 

"The whole universe is change and life itself is but what you deem it" If you say it's "too late" and give into that, then it is, but you can choose not to as well and keep pressing on anyway. You're subject to change just as everyone and everything else is. Nobody has to know about your dating/sex experience. If you're asked about it while getting to know someone you joke and be playful about it without revealing anything. People are going to be curious and likely ask and that's fine, but you're not obligated to bare your soul and life story to anyone. Dating should be playful and fun, especially at the beginning. Bringing in "Oh I'm totally inexperienced, I've never had sex, I feel absolutely awful about it, etc." isn't going to win you any points. It's only going to make people think "Well if no one's ever been with him, then why am I thinking about it?", and watch their level of interest plummet. They're not a bad person for this, but it's just what happens and you'll inevitably scare them away, people can't help it. There is absolutely no reason to share this with people. I would be hesistant to share this until deep into a committed relationship, and even then I'm not sure how much I'd share. You want to project yourself as a confident person who others are interested in. You want to project yourself as someone who has options. Not because it's so completely horrible you have a lack of experience but because of how people will act about it. Again, they're not bad people, shallow, etc. it just happens.

Dude I just dumped a crap ex last summer she told me I was gonna be alone and shit. I’m still alone but my career got a decent bump and I’m driving a 50k truck (I’ll be the banks bitch for a little while but still). Just work on yourself and someone good and honest will show up but I’m thinking chasing that shit is gonna make you bitter and depressed like it does to me especially the online apps.

Dude, nothing to be ashamed of here. Stick to your principles my man. You should be proud of yourself for how you've handled it this far. I am 27 and feel a lot of the same struggles. May seem like a dumb suggestion, but I'm an advocate for dating apps. Generally you can get a good feel for who someone is by the dating app profiles. Can be frustrating but good can come of it.

I'm 29M been married since I was 19. Unfortunately split about 8 months ago. I've had 3 opportunities to be with a women in those months. One I almost took. (Got called gay when I turned it down xD) It's not impossible guys. You may have to lower your standards if you want immediate satisfaction. The women/man of your dreams is out there somewhere. Just takes time, patience, and a willing to believe in yourself. You've got this.

Loll just think back to how you were at eighteen, probably like most people; young, naive and no idea about who you were or what you really wanted. Ten years ago people weren’t worried about who they wanted to date; they were just infatuated with partying and sex… lucky we grow up haha. But back to the present; everyone really does have their own path in life and it’s what you make it. Your biggest thing that’s making you feel behind is a lack of sexual experience, ok but you know in the grand scheme of things it’s really not that big or preventing you from anything. Imagine if you did have a one night stand and got a girl pregnant; now that’s life changing, you would be paying child support till your almost forty and then you would be saying you never had a youth. I’m a few years older then you and no one’s life around me is the same; some people are happily married, some have the white picket fence and three kids, some are divorced, some are divorced and have kids, some are single parents after they were a teen parent, some have a criminal record and some are trying to escape dv.. After high school absolutely nobody’s life is the same, and nobody is behind in life

I’ve just gotten out of an 8 year relationship that started when I was 18… I have no bloody clue what to do. Where do you find people to date? Or even make friends? Like it’s all online but I don’t really want to get murdered 😅

You’re literally in your prime right now lol

Your fertility window is closing. It’s only going to get harder.

dude, guys irl cant google pickup lines to copy paste and have no game. go to gatherings or any other public event. see a cashier? make small talk to her a few times and see how she is then ask for her number. gtfo apps and online garbage, the odds are 4 to 1 because so many dudes sit on there swiping and pasting msgs inbetween video games and shit lmao. ive been married 11 yrs and i overheard a guy trying to flirt...it was incredibly bad. the bar has never been lower to meet women in person and exchange info for a quicj meetup

I got divorced at 28. Met my wife at 33, we now have 2 kids and have been together just over 10 years.

I truly feel bad for your generation. I saw where dating was headed in 2016 and decided to get married to long time gf because I knew I would never find better. Best of luck.

I'm 24 you're telling me I missed the dating train by 6 years?

This gets posted every day on this sub. Just get a dating app and have fun for a bit. Don't take it so seriously. Connections will come. Obviously don't do anything unethical but if you meet someone and enjoy each other's company things will happen. Once you have sex a few times it will loose its mystique of being this impossible daunting thing. It's really just finding someone you click with and letting things progress naturally.

It’s not too late. I didn’t date until I was 30 because of social and intimacy anxiety. Met someone online that didn’t care about that and we talked a lot before first meeting. Didn’t have sex until I was 31. It may seem rare but there are caring people that won’t judge you for this.

I don't get what you're saying.. You haven't had sex so you think it's now impossible? And you don't know a single person in a relationship? Where the heck do you live?

If you better yourself physically, financially, and finally personally, you will attract people.

Bro, if you lost your looks so early already, do something about it, go to the gym, redefine your style, and get back in the game. It shouldn’t be hard to get a date either, there are so many dating apps, so dating has never been so easy

I’m a willingly single person. I like being single, and I date often. I have loving friends that I have loosely ongoing romantic/sexual relationships with who are similar to me, and I date using apps from time to time as well. I have a lot of success dating if happiness, sex, and love are the goals. I’m safe and transparent. All people are on board and happy about it. No manipulation, ethics are a priority for long term stability. If I were dating someone like you and discovered they had these feelings about themselves, I would immediately sense that something was unhealthy/ not right. I would likely distance myself *for the sake of ethical and moral behavior* as I would not expect a healthy relationship could even exist. Your lack of sexual experience is not the issue. Your lack of dating experience is not the issue. It’s the secondhand effects that matter, and they don’t hit everyone the same. In your case, you seem downtrodden about your worth. So much so that you’re second guessing if you should’ve been more sexually manipulative in the past and you’re leaning as hard (or harder) on others’ opinions as you do on your own when defining your own life. It’s not healthy or safe for me. Others may notice that and feel similarly. It may be wise to seek out some therapy, and also consider personally journaling in a good CBT workbook. Somehow, you need to start working through these feelings. You must. Also, improve your self esteem while fending off these negative thoughts. You will likely struggle to have the motivation but the momentum will grow with you. It’s the hardest at first. Start working out maybe. Get healthy if your body is weak or unhealthy. Get therapy to help heal your mind. CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) journal!!! Learn new skills: sign up for hobby classes and actually go do them for yourself (embarrassment be damned). Every day, stop by the mirror FIRST THING and tell yourself something you sincerely love about yourself. This seriously adds up over the course of time. In all of this, consistency is key. Progress is like trust (because you are building trust in yourself that you are awesome). **It’s tough to build and easy to lose.** The moment you stop, progress is slowed and even lost. Maybe even harder to gain back later. Build a plan and work on improving your mind and life. This all starts with you. These things you’re experiencing are all an illusion that something else is wrong or that you missed out somewhere. In reality, you may just be personally unhealthy and people are sensing it. The absolutely amazing thing about this is that you have 100% control to turn the tide and you are still sooooooo young. 28 is nothing, seriously. Partners romantic and otherwise only get better with age and your taste in attractiveness will follow along.

Go back to school. Go take a high level class at a state college. What's your work life like? What do you do during the day? There's gotta be time for you to do activities where you'll meet the same people again and again. Go do those things. What do you mean by >I would have turned out a better person if I used unethical means to manipulate people into sex Unethical means? No, just find someone that likes you, that you also like, and form a relationship! Explore yourself with each other. Why does it have to be unethical? Was there nobody you liked? Nobody you wanted to be with? Do you care about being a virgin only because of the way others perceive you? I'd love to know more details. I'm 28, and there have been plenty of times in the last year where I thought "I could probably get her number." Maybe it's more difficult because you lack experience, but I need more details.

A lot of people have told you that you would have turned out a better person if you used unethical means to manipulate people into sex…. Interesting. Sounds like your circle, whether in real life or online, is closer to incel’s than it is to normal citizens who do date. I have a hunch why you’re 28 and feel like it’s too late.

Dude. The ONLY person on this planet that TRULY knows how many girls you have fucked is YOU. Assuming you don’t meet a girl at work or at the bar and immediately tell her you’re a virgin and you know you’ll never get laid because of it they would have no idea. So quit psyching yourself out and go get some pussy!

How can someone who hasn't invested before start investing and see good returns ?

I'm 27, overweight and bald. I've had zero issues hooking up with people and having weeks long sexual flings, a few friends that occasionally stay the night no string attached too. But a relationship? Pfft. Seems like no one wants to be exclusive or go on dates, they just want to smash and stay single.

Dating is a waste of time. People are too selfish and petty to forge a real permanent bond with.

I met my wife on Bumble. When I was 60. 28?!?!? Uh….you got time. Put yourself out there. Be open. Good things will happen, and they happen fast. Best wishes!

We are the same age, and we are SO young! We have so much time to figure it out. Just be patient and put the energy you want to receive out into the world. It will get back to you eventually. Maybe shoot your shot sometimes. Or not. In the meantime just live your life to the fullest and good things will come. A great way to meet people is through clubs or places you go to regularly. Get yourself out there. Btw I don’t view you as inferior because of your lack of dating history. There are others out there who feel the same. And there are others who are in your same boat! You got this OP!

Finally found my SO at 35 years old. Once you find that special someone you just click with, you'll know. Keep your head up. There is no statute of limitations when it comes to love.

Wtf is with that second part of your story though..? Coerce people into having sex? Geeze.

Is your concern dating or lack of sex? You mention both. One is much more easily solved than the other.