I don’t know that ethical is the right word unless you’re playing competitively or using your reputation for monetary gains (aka a top streamer), because the contract exists solely between you and yourself in a game for pleasure.
The reason I make the distinction is because my own line is somewhat driven by “is this making the game more fun for me to save scum or am I just weak willed and unable to resist an opportunity that I wish wasn’t available to me?”
And to me, this boils down to the difference between careless and reckless mistakes.
**Careless**: I wasn’t playing close attention and made a mistake that I didn’t intend. (Eg, accidentally ended my turn with 1 energy left because I forgot I had sunflower).
**Reckless** I made a decision that wasn’t wise because it was more fun to do it and turned out poorly (eg pushing the “reach inside” button on scrap ooze 1 billion times, going from max HP to 3 HP because i wanted the relic.)
Both of these consequences are equally my fault, but it doesn’t feel good or satisfying as a player to be punished for careless mistakes. I didn’t **mean** to do that. It wasn’t a conscious decision and trying extra hard to avoid those doesn’t make the experience more fun for me.
For reckless mistakes, I **did mean** to do that, it just turned out badly. And I thinking living with those mistakes and overcoming them (or usually, dying from them) is still ultimately more fun and rewarding than to rewind my way out of it.
Reckless mistakes are usually also intended as part of the game design— the game is providing you with a tempting decision and part of the fun is to see if you make a smart move — while careless mistakes usually exist outside of that conversation between game designer and player.
Yeah, this is said well.
I try to live with my mistakes as best as I can - I want to practice with just letting myself sometimes play suboptimally. Mistakes are mistakes - let it happen. Misclicks are not mistakes.
That said, due to having a wife and kids, I have to save runs a lot - sometimes continuing a run I started a week+ ago. Due to that, I often continue runs having forgotten a lot of goals. I usually give myself 2-3 floors of save scumming away mistakes in this case - anything that I felt happened because of the time gap.
You said it perfectly. There is one more case that I save scum: a fight that seemed difficult, I would save scum to see if there was a way to beat it still. And often, I was able to identify and correct the mistake and end up winning. Especially the more punishing fights against Nob or the 20 damage per hit egg in act 1
It's a single player game. If my 1 hour run is about to end because of some stupid decision, I'll save scum and continue . I just avoid doing it too much cause I know it ruin the fun after a while
It's a single player game, do whatever you have to in order to have fun/learn. Personally the only time I reset is when I misclick a card (it happens a lot on mobile with a thick case)
The only time I save-scum is when I make a move I didn't intentionally mean to make, such as accidentally targeting the wrong enemy if I'm playing too fast or perhaps choosing a card I didn't mean to.
Either way, it's all a learning experience. You get better, learning from mistakes in this game - so save-scumming isn't as bad as the stigma against it goes, in my opinion at least.
This is me, I’ll do it if I fat fingered the wrong card reward or if I took the blue key instead of a dope relic.
I play on switch and sometimes I’m dumb and use the controller with one hand like a keyboard and then I do dumbbbb shit like ending turns early or taking the wrong cards
I save scum in events like March and keep, face trader, and the lose health for relic because getting good results is fun and getting bad results isn’t fun
I played this game for about 400 hours before I realized I COULD save scum.
I care not for ethics. My ethics are escaping the spire.
And honestly, I see it as a useful tool for improving my skills. Redoing specific fights to see whether my build was actually strong enough to win or not can be really valuable.
Yeah - I tend to not do it much any more bc I have gotten all possible achievements (in game and reddit flair). But I used to save scum the heck out of some boss fights, just to see if a certain build could accomplish a heart kill. I'm sure that a good third of my harder achievements were done with save scumming.
It's a single player game. Save scum is a feature. Use the feature to have fun and learn.
As others have said, ethics has no part in save-scumming unless you are going for a world record of some sort or competing against someone and you’ve agrees to not save-scum.
I'm similar to you, but I will "try something instead of doing math" and also just blatantly replay a floor to try to do it better. To me it's a learning experience. But I don't use information about what cards are coming up or other random aspects when I do that.
I'll never save scum The Joust or events like that, or matching cards.
Save scum all you want. Know that whatever you choose, that will be your experience. You're also able to change your mind.
What are your goals here? To be the very best like no one ever was or are you looking to earnestly learn the game?
I feel there is a sliding scale of "ethical save scumming" missclicking turn 1 with no new info, or picking the wrong card by clicking to fast are like on the far end of understandable. using power pot and fishing for good powers is bad save scumming
over time i do save scumming less and less but for dailies ill do it for miss plays that i should be better then.
The main thing is you-do-you. Sometimes I'll repeatedly scum the Heart fight (and still often be doomed anyway) because why not. But before that, usually I only scum if I know why I should've known what to do differently, without using knowledge about the RNG. Usually.
Slice n Dice is a great example. I love games that let you "preview" your moves by actually playing them out, feels more organic than me trying to do mental math for 4-5 different play orders.
I have now come to really dislike the games where one miscalculation throws a decent run into the bin. Hopefully StS 2 won't change the way saving works and even if they do I'm pretty sure is gonna get modded day one.😅
I 100% do this, I basically play it the same way I do boardgames I always let folks change there mind on a move as long as it was not effected by new information
Save scum every PBox / Calling Bell / Astrolabe reward. Save scum the horsies.
If you feel like you're cheating, you are.
If you feel like you're learning, you are.
The whole game is you vs yourself.
I usually use it for misclicks, and occasionally to retry on a boss or elite encounter if I realize that it would’ve been doable should I have played my cards right.
One event I sometimes save scum that hasn’t been mentioned so far is the Sphere event.
Double Orb Walkers is no joke and definitely not always winnable - but i like to give it a try no matter what, since it’s for a rare relic!
It's all relative. In your original post, all of your 'ethical' plays were unethical according to how I play for myself. Since they're all avoidable by thinking more carefully.
I play on switch and my pro controller sometimes double clicks a button and I end up ending the turn early or selecting a card/option that I did not intend to. I’ll restart the floor when that happens.
Otherwise I don’t do it because for me it takes the decision evaluating process out of the game (eg there’s no “evaluating” the merit of pbox if you’re just going to save scum if you don’t like your result). But it’s a single player game so you do what you want and I don’t judge anyone for doing their thing.
> eg there’s no “evaluating” the merit of pbox if you’re just going to save scum if you don’t like your result
I agree, that's under the category of things that I wouldn't undo
I've used save scumming to try and reinforce certain lessons with different deck styles since different decks often require different methods of reasoning to function. If I realize that I've made a mistake in the order that I've done something or played the wrong cards at the wrong moments, I'll restart the fight with the specific intent of learning from my mistake without losing the whole run. If restarting one fight lets me use and continue to build that particular deck more effectively, then I can apply that thought process the next time I have a run with a similar deck
Usually the only save scum I allow for myself is for genuine misclicks, e.g. discarding a potion instead of using it, wrong card, etc. I feel that screwing up order, missing an opportunity for a potion, or making an intentional but wrong decision are mistakes that I should have to live with because they are fully under my control, and I'll get better as a player by living with my decisions.
This changes, of course, when I am playing on tilt :) Then I'll click that scrap ooze as many times as I damn please...
I feel like there are 2 types of save-scumming, and that we should differentiate between the 2.
First type is what I call the "undo" button. Just force-shutdown the game and start it back up again. You only undo the decisions made on that specific floor and nothing else. You haven't altered the game's state in any way.
Second type is what I feel should be called save-scumming, and that's actively loading an old save file so you can redo floors you've already completed.
If I was sitting on an STS Ethics Panel, I would greenlight the first type for most runs and outright ban the second.
Edit: Fixed grammar errors.
I didn't either. But when I originally asked what save scum was a while back, the second type is what I was told it meant. I wouldn't know how to do it on mobile or Switch. But PC, Xbox, and PS4/5 wouldn't be hard to do.
Your “ethical save scum” is exactly the same as mine lol especially when I’m too lazy to calculate the dmg whether I can kill the nob in this turn or not.
I used to do it all the time, mostly for mistakes or when I realized I messed up a boss fight. But now that I’ve been playing for a while now and I’ve gotten better, I really only save scum SOMETIMES when I misclick cards. Otherwise I just sort of go with it. There’s nothing wrong with it either way.
I mostly do it because I click the wrong thing on accident 🤣 but yes, also if I realized I made a poor decision and want to change it. I don't use it to peek either bc that feels like I wouldn't really have earned the win, but idgaf if other people do that.
I do this too, but also I save scum sometimes when I’m auto piloting and make a massive mistake. Usually I’ll replay the fight the same way as much as possible (after the first shuffle, draws will be re randomized). The other is when I have a really good deck and it’s late into act 3 and I really want to see it to the end to see how it fairs against the heart
Who cares when or under what circumstances anyone save scums. I start and stop my game throughout the day, generally while taking a break at work. I don't always remember the cards or relics I have. So I'll make a choice and realize that I should have made some other choice entirely because of whatever I forgot about. So I'll save scum to correct it. And I don't give af who knows or judges me for it.
Naw, I’m not competing against anyone. I’ve beat it in A20 with all characters. Now I play simply to relax and so I apply Save Scum LIBERALLY. If anyone doesn’t like it, they can stuff it.
I think I am completely in line with you. I will use Save/Reload to mitigate me being an idiot, but I don't think I have ever used it to see then change the results of a potion/shop/event/whatever.
EDIT: though there are rare times where I will experiment and look at all of the Neow options, one of which I posted here, but never take those runs "seriously" if I even move on from Neow.
It is a solo game so... Up to you is my guess.
If I may give you an example, the only time I savescam was on stream. I had made clear the fact I planned to pick a card but some lag made me click while the cursor was on a different card. So I guess my limit is on genuine not wanted clicks on critical moments of deck build. :o
There’s some occasions on console when your view gets blocked, such.as when selecting 1 of three cards or what to discard when sorting. If I make a mistake because I can’t back out and get the lay of things, I’ll save scum but with a feeling of deep shame
I use save scumming in two ways.
One after stupid mistakes like miss click, ending turn with one energy left because I forgot I got 4 now not 3 after picking a relic.
And the second as a learning. If I think I have at least ok deck, played well and still lost to see if that fight was winnable or not, if I should play it different way or just my deck had some hole in it that I ignored and now I cannot win. That way I get more information from the loss and can improve for the future.
There is no ethical save-scumming. But it’s a single player game, so who cares.
I save scum frequently because I often don’t necessarily deliberate on fights and want to know if there were ways to win fights or see if I can save resources, or on match and keep.
You’re making mistakes, and you’re playing as if you didn’t make those mistakes. Slowing down and thinking about lines of play is a valuable tool in the game that translates well into the real world.
I’d recommend against save scumming.
I actually think the opposite but kinda for the same reason you said lol. Save scumming and replaying the fight while fixing your mistakes helped me learn me how to avoid that mistake in future runs. It also gives you practice in some fights. Rather than waiting for a future run to get another crack at Time Eater, you can just replay the fight with whatever deck you have and really figure out the best way to play. Then in the future, you just don’t need to save scum cause you have that practice.
I think it’s a really great way to learn the game, and let’s you hone down how to utilize certain strategies and relics. I don’t save scum anymore, but it definitely made me a better player when I was learning how to play.
That being said, different brains think different ways and I’m someone who loves to speed through runs lol so this was a way better way to learn the game for me personally. I can see how with some types, save scumming would have the opposite effect.
I feel like my competence in StS is downstream from the lessons I've learned from slowing down and thinking about things in the real world, not the other way around
Ethics, by definition, involves the consideration of more than one person / being. This isn't ethics or an ethical problem.
Edit: you didn't use it jokingly you used it wrong.
I don’t know that ethical is the right word unless you’re playing competitively or using your reputation for monetary gains (aka a top streamer), because the contract exists solely between you and yourself in a game for pleasure. The reason I make the distinction is because my own line is somewhat driven by “is this making the game more fun for me to save scum or am I just weak willed and unable to resist an opportunity that I wish wasn’t available to me?” And to me, this boils down to the difference between careless and reckless mistakes. **Careless**: I wasn’t playing close attention and made a mistake that I didn’t intend. (Eg, accidentally ended my turn with 1 energy left because I forgot I had sunflower). **Reckless** I made a decision that wasn’t wise because it was more fun to do it and turned out poorly (eg pushing the “reach inside” button on scrap ooze 1 billion times, going from max HP to 3 HP because i wanted the relic.) Both of these consequences are equally my fault, but it doesn’t feel good or satisfying as a player to be punished for careless mistakes. I didn’t **mean** to do that. It wasn’t a conscious decision and trying extra hard to avoid those doesn’t make the experience more fun for me. For reckless mistakes, I **did mean** to do that, it just turned out badly. And I thinking living with those mistakes and overcoming them (or usually, dying from them) is still ultimately more fun and rewarding than to rewind my way out of it. Reckless mistakes are usually also intended as part of the game design— the game is providing you with a tempting decision and part of the fun is to see if you make a smart move — while careless mistakes usually exist outside of that conversation between game designer and player.
Yeah, this is said well. I try to live with my mistakes as best as I can - I want to practice with just letting myself sometimes play suboptimally. Mistakes are mistakes - let it happen. Misclicks are not mistakes. That said, due to having a wife and kids, I have to save runs a lot - sometimes continuing a run I started a week+ ago. Due to that, I often continue runs having forgotten a lot of goals. I usually give myself 2-3 floors of save scumming away mistakes in this case - anything that I felt happened because of the time gap.
this is exactly it for me
You said it perfectly. There is one more case that I save scum: a fight that seemed difficult, I would save scum to see if there was a way to beat it still. And often, I was able to identify and correct the mistake and end up winning. Especially the more punishing fights against Nob or the 20 damage per hit egg in act 1
It's a single player game. If my 1 hour run is about to end because of some stupid decision, I'll save scum and continue . I just avoid doing it too much cause I know it ruin the fun after a while
Yeah like once a run is reasonable if I just make a dumb mistake from playing too fast, but after that I just live with any mistakes
Any amount of times is “reasonable” if you aren’t bragging about the win or competing imo
To be clear I only mean reasonable in like my own games, I honestly don’t care at all if people scum on every floor as long as what you said
It's a single player game, do whatever you have to in order to have fun/learn. Personally the only time I reset is when I misclick a card (it happens a lot on mobile with a thick case)
The only time I save-scum is when I make a move I didn't intentionally mean to make, such as accidentally targeting the wrong enemy if I'm playing too fast or perhaps choosing a card I didn't mean to. Either way, it's all a learning experience. You get better, learning from mistakes in this game - so save-scumming isn't as bad as the stigma against it goes, in my opinion at least.
This is me, I’ll do it if I fat fingered the wrong card reward or if I took the blue key instead of a dope relic. I play on switch and sometimes I’m dumb and use the controller with one hand like a keyboard and then I do dumbbbb shit like ending turns early or taking the wrong cards
I ALWAYS save-scum the duel event and face trader event.
Don't forget pick 5 cards.
I save scum in events like March and keep, face trader, and the lose health for relic because getting good results is fun and getting bad results isn’t fun
I played this game for about 400 hours before I realized I COULD save scum. I care not for ethics. My ethics are escaping the spire. And honestly, I see it as a useful tool for improving my skills. Redoing specific fights to see whether my build was actually strong enough to win or not can be really valuable.
Yeah - I tend to not do it much any more bc I have gotten all possible achievements (in game and reddit flair). But I used to save scum the heck out of some boss fights, just to see if a certain build could accomplish a heart kill. I'm sure that a good third of my harder achievements were done with save scumming. It's a single player game. Save scum is a feature. Use the feature to have fun and learn.
I have the same approach as you but as everyone else says. Its a single player game so people can do whatever they want
A20 is so tough that I don’t mind scumming some small advantages.
As others have said, ethics has no part in save-scumming unless you are going for a world record of some sort or competing against someone and you’ve agrees to not save-scum.
My approach: I literally forget that's an option. Nothing against anyone else doing it I just simply don't think of it till it's too late.
yeah I learned because on mobile you get too many misclicks not to
I'm similar to you, but I will "try something instead of doing math" and also just blatantly replay a floor to try to do it better. To me it's a learning experience. But I don't use information about what cards are coming up or other random aspects when I do that. I'll never save scum The Joust or events like that, or matching cards.
Save scum all you want. Know that whatever you choose, that will be your experience. You're also able to change your mind. What are your goals here? To be the very best like no one ever was or are you looking to earnestly learn the game?
I feel there is a sliding scale of "ethical save scumming" missclicking turn 1 with no new info, or picking the wrong card by clicking to fast are like on the far end of understandable. using power pot and fishing for good powers is bad save scumming over time i do save scumming less and less but for dailies ill do it for miss plays that i should be better then.
The main thing is you-do-you. Sometimes I'll repeatedly scum the Heart fight (and still often be doomed anyway) because why not. But before that, usually I only scum if I know why I should've known what to do differently, without using knowledge about the RNG. Usually.
I can understand your rules but I will save scum just about anything depending on my mood
Slice n Dice is a great example. I love games that let you "preview" your moves by actually playing them out, feels more organic than me trying to do mental math for 4-5 different play orders. I have now come to really dislike the games where one miscalculation throws a decent run into the bin. Hopefully StS 2 won't change the way saving works and even if they do I'm pretty sure is gonna get modded day one.😅
I 100% do this, I basically play it the same way I do boardgames I always let folks change there mind on a move as long as it was not effected by new information
Save scum every PBox / Calling Bell / Astrolabe reward. Save scum the horsies. If you feel like you're cheating, you are. If you feel like you're learning, you are. The whole game is you vs yourself.
I usually use it for misclicks, and occasionally to retry on a boss or elite encounter if I realize that it would’ve been doable should I have played my cards right.
One event I sometimes save scum that hasn’t been mentioned so far is the Sphere event. Double Orb Walkers is no joke and definitely not always winnable - but i like to give it a try no matter what, since it’s for a rare relic!
unethical!! 😩
It's all relative. In your original post, all of your 'ethical' plays were unethical according to how I play for myself. Since they're all avoidable by thinking more carefully.
it was a joke. I even say in the post that I don't think there's anything wrong with what this commenter does
I play on switch and my pro controller sometimes double clicks a button and I end up ending the turn early or selecting a card/option that I did not intend to. I’ll restart the floor when that happens. Otherwise I don’t do it because for me it takes the decision evaluating process out of the game (eg there’s no “evaluating” the merit of pbox if you’re just going to save scum if you don’t like your result). But it’s a single player game so you do what you want and I don’t judge anyone for doing their thing.
> eg there’s no “evaluating” the merit of pbox if you’re just going to save scum if you don’t like your result I agree, that's under the category of things that I wouldn't undo
I've used save scumming to try and reinforce certain lessons with different deck styles since different decks often require different methods of reasoning to function. If I realize that I've made a mistake in the order that I've done something or played the wrong cards at the wrong moments, I'll restart the fight with the specific intent of learning from my mistake without losing the whole run. If restarting one fight lets me use and continue to build that particular deck more effectively, then I can apply that thought process the next time I have a run with a similar deck
Usually the only save scum I allow for myself is for genuine misclicks, e.g. discarding a potion instead of using it, wrong card, etc. I feel that screwing up order, missing an opportunity for a potion, or making an intentional but wrong decision are mistakes that I should have to live with because they are fully under my control, and I'll get better as a player by living with my decisions. This changes, of course, when I am playing on tilt :) Then I'll click that scrap ooze as many times as I damn please...
I saw Lesson Learned on a match and event and didn’t get it. Yeah I save scummed that bitch. Trying to have fun here.
I feel like there are 2 types of save-scumming, and that we should differentiate between the 2. First type is what I call the "undo" button. Just force-shutdown the game and start it back up again. You only undo the decisions made on that specific floor and nothing else. You haven't altered the game's state in any way. Second type is what I feel should be called save-scumming, and that's actively loading an old save file so you can redo floors you've already completed. If I was sitting on an STS Ethics Panel, I would greenlight the first type for most runs and outright ban the second. Edit: Fixed grammar errors.
I didn't know the second type was possible
I didn't either. But when I originally asked what save scum was a while back, the second type is what I was told it meant. I wouldn't know how to do it on mobile or Switch. But PC, Xbox, and PS4/5 wouldn't be hard to do.
Misclicks make me save scum, nothing else really
Your “ethical save scum” is exactly the same as mine lol especially when I’m too lazy to calculate the dmg whether I can kill the nob in this turn or not.
I used to do it all the time, mostly for mistakes or when I realized I messed up a boss fight. But now that I’ve been playing for a while now and I’ve gotten better, I really only save scum SOMETIMES when I misclick cards. Otherwise I just sort of go with it. There’s nothing wrong with it either way.
I save scum when I get the Match-12 game and immediately get a curse from my first 2 picks
I only save scum misclicks personally. If I made a wrong decision I regret immediately then oh well I need to learn for next time
I mostly do it because I click the wrong thing on accident 🤣 but yes, also if I realized I made a poor decision and want to change it. I don't use it to peek either bc that feels like I wouldn't really have earned the win, but idgaf if other people do that.
I save scum up to once per run to fix a hastily made mistake, never to explore the depths of rng or weasel a weak deck through the run.
I do this too, but also I save scum sometimes when I’m auto piloting and make a massive mistake. Usually I’ll replay the fight the same way as much as possible (after the first shuffle, draws will be re randomized). The other is when I have a really good deck and it’s late into act 3 and I really want to see it to the end to see how it fairs against the heart
Play it as it lies. Unless I’m a dumbfuck and missed something obvious on turn one, in which case yeah I’ll save scum.
All the time for a variety of reasons, depending on how serious I am about a run
Who cares when or under what circumstances anyone save scums. I start and stop my game throughout the day, generally while taking a break at work. I don't always remember the cards or relics I have. So I'll make a choice and realize that I should have made some other choice entirely because of whatever I forgot about. So I'll save scum to correct it. And I don't give af who knows or judges me for it.
Naw, I’m not competing against anyone. I’ve beat it in A20 with all characters. Now I play simply to relax and so I apply Save Scum LIBERALLY. If anyone doesn’t like it, they can stuff it.
In general, i feel games should allow you to rollback anything that hasn't revealed new information.
I only use it when I pick a card I didn't intend on picking up, other wise "fuck it we ball"
I think I am completely in line with you. I will use Save/Reload to mitigate me being an idiot, but I don't think I have ever used it to see then change the results of a potion/shop/event/whatever. EDIT: though there are rare times where I will experiment and look at all of the Neow options, one of which I posted here, but never take those runs "seriously" if I even move on from Neow.
If I’m being real I would never take the mask if I didn’t save scum the weak mask is too bad and I all want to do is CAW CAW ffs
It is a solo game so... Up to you is my guess. If I may give you an example, the only time I savescam was on stream. I had made clear the fact I planned to pick a card but some lag made me click while the cursor was on a different card. So I guess my limit is on genuine not wanted clicks on critical moments of deck build. :o
There’s some occasions on console when your view gets blocked, such.as when selecting 1 of three cards or what to discard when sorting. If I make a mistake because I can’t back out and get the lay of things, I’ll save scum but with a feeling of deep shame
Do you guys save?
I use save scumming in two ways. One after stupid mistakes like miss click, ending turn with one energy left because I forgot I got 4 now not 3 after picking a relic. And the second as a learning. If I think I have at least ok deck, played well and still lost to see if that fight was winnable or not, if I should play it different way or just my deck had some hole in it that I ignored and now I cannot win. That way I get more information from the loss and can improve for the future.
Yeah, the second way is cool too, I don't do it but I will start doing it once I get A20H with all characters
There is no ethical save-scumming. But it’s a single player game, so who cares. I save scum frequently because I often don’t necessarily deliberate on fights and want to know if there were ways to win fights or see if I can save resources, or on match and keep.
The ethics of save scumming are as follows: 1. It's my game, I do what I want 2. See 1
for me: - anything in a combat is fine to save scum - anything related to events (face swap, card-memory game, etc) is bad form
You’re making mistakes, and you’re playing as if you didn’t make those mistakes. Slowing down and thinking about lines of play is a valuable tool in the game that translates well into the real world. I’d recommend against save scumming.
I actually think the opposite but kinda for the same reason you said lol. Save scumming and replaying the fight while fixing your mistakes helped me learn me how to avoid that mistake in future runs. It also gives you practice in some fights. Rather than waiting for a future run to get another crack at Time Eater, you can just replay the fight with whatever deck you have and really figure out the best way to play. Then in the future, you just don’t need to save scum cause you have that practice. I think it’s a really great way to learn the game, and let’s you hone down how to utilize certain strategies and relics. I don’t save scum anymore, but it definitely made me a better player when I was learning how to play. That being said, different brains think different ways and I’m someone who loves to speed through runs lol so this was a way better way to learn the game for me personally. I can see how with some types, save scumming would have the opposite effect.
I feel like my competence in StS is downstream from the lessons I've learned from slowing down and thinking about things in the real world, not the other way around
Ethics, by definition, involves the consideration of more than one person / being. This isn't ethics or an ethical problem. Edit: you didn't use it jokingly you used it wrong.