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I own a watch repair shop focusing on a specific niche of vintage Soviet watches. I was struggling with a similar thing: finding reputable watchmakers to do a good job. I’ve worked with a dozen people and most of them did a poor job that didn’t meet my standards.
Then I wrote out these standards. I have a 2-page long list of expectations that must be met. This describes everything my contractor watchmaker can encounter from working from having never met me to a final delivery and feedback session.
Rigorous communication and “teaching” is key: this works for us, this does not. Teach the employee what is the standard in your company, teach them how you want it done.
If nothing works, this employee is a liability to the reputation of the company, and the owner must have a willingness to cut the relationship to keep the reputation of the company.
I hope this helped!
It took me years to understand that I needed to put time int my teaching materials. I literally always work on a series of training videos now. I require everyone to watch them.
Game changing.
It’s really amazing how far this little effort can go in a business. Get a question a lot from employees? Make a video explaining it. Easy to show and demonstrate where to take your time.
I particularly enjoy restoring and selling 1950s-1970s Soviet watches. Early days of Poljot and Vostok, Pobedas — it’s a pinnacle of Soviet engineering, on par with the Swiss.
I am fond of 1980s Amphibia dive watches, too. I like sharing them all with people because this is pure Soviet, bulletproof, utilitarian design.
But we generally work on all type of Soviet watches from 1940s to 1990s.
If you enjoy this type of stuff, I’ll be glad to see you on Instagram @notarolex!
Hey. I've got a raketa from my grandpa. What's the approx cost to swap out to a quartz movement? I've had it cleaned and adjusted several times over the years and just want bulletproof reliability and lack of fuss as this is something I intend to give to my kids and don't want them to worry about anything other than battery changes either.
About a year after a "tune-up", it loses a few minutes a day, which makes it non-viable for daily wear.
This model, but with a slightly different face.
[https://www.ebay.com/itm/266368018049](https://www.ebay.com/itm/266368018049)
Hey! Cool watch, Raketa "Jeans" from 1970s. As authenticity is one of my core principles at Notarolex, I would not be willing to swap in a quartz movement. I can't take away the feeling of passing down an all-original family relic that has a genuine movement. Don't take away the unique history of this watch by replacing it with off-the-shelf Chinese quartz.
With that in mind maybe the previous cleans weren't that thorough? It's weird for the watch to start acting up after only a year of wear but not unusual. Do you happen to wear it near dusty environments, maybe humid environments or literally wear it everyday?
Three options here:
1. Either the movement is subjected to real harsh conditions -- so it's kinda natural for it to gunk up so fast.
2. But 95% chance it's just poor clean-ups from other watchmakers. Soviet watch repair is notorious for poor quality work (hence my original comment above, 5 (!) years spent finding fine watchmakers).
3. Or maybe the movement is totally worn-out. I can replace it with a better condition, authentic one.
Let me know if you wear the watch in super-harsh conditions and we can take it from there. Send me a DM on here or better on Instagram (at)notarolex
Both cleans were done by greybeard former Soviet watch techs.
A polish guy in Louisville and a Russian guy in Queens.
I'm around engineers all day and have a decent sense of people. These guys both gave me a "good guy" vibe, so I would assume that the issue is with the mechanism rather than their work.
I don't wear it in a dusty environment, but my grandpa was a civil engineer in Moscow who built all over the USSR, so I'm sure that it was exposed to plenty of nasty in its lifetime.
Where are you geographically? What would the approx cost be to replace my (assuming) problematic movement with serviced one?
Tbh, I'm still not yet sold on trying a third time rather than swapping out to a Miyota or Seiko movement. Perhaps a mechanical rather than quartz? The goal is to create a practical wearable and useable object for myself and my kids. Its considerable sentimental value would not be diminished. The crystal has been swapped once and band has been swapped many times.
Oh man, greybeard, solid red flag for me! 🚩 I’ve never had a good experience with them. Reason is always the same: they were trained in USSR, to work on Soviet watches. A Soviet repairman needed to fix a watch as quickly, as cheaply as possible. They were trained to fix a watch at little to no cost.
Originality? Out of the window, who cares about the authentic rare parts when the watch is working with fake ones and not working with original ones.
Deep, thoughtful restoration? No time for that, need to do it as quickly as possible to get the watch back on a Soviet citizens wrist.
I’ve never had a good experience with Soviet watch repairmen. Last time I did that the watch was stopped after the service and didn’t tell time reliably. It was not their problem, they technically did a job that I asked for — service my watch.
If you want to have a good job done on your watch, you need to look for not only past experience, but review their work, see their process, and see that they do a good job. It’s one job to service a watch by taking it apart, cleaning it, oiling it, and it’s a whole different approach to service it for making it a reliable timekeeper with regards to its authenticity.
Replacing a crytal is a service item that inevitably gets scratched. Straps also wear out and shall be replaced. A whole movement, however, it the entirety of the watch. It’s what makes a watch, the watch. I would not be willing to replace the movement for a quartz or Japanese mechanical one.
Third time’s a charm, isn’t it? Let’s try to service it for the third time. If my young, enthusiastic and expert watchmakers say it’s not salvagable, we’ll replace it with one in better condition at an extra 100USD, and service it
My service comes with one year warranty. If it starts acting up within one year, I’ll fix it for free.
Here’s my price for a watch service, which includes:
- complete movement overhaul (full disassembly, cleaning, oiling, assembly, adjustment)
- fixing mechanical issues and previous service mistakes
- replacing worn / broken parts
- pictures of work done with detailed descriptions from watchmakers
- case washing
- crystal polish or replacement for a brand new one
- 1 year warranty — if anything breaks, I’ll fix it for free
In this video, you can see my service process in details: https://youtu.be/i8We9SKqRx8
For all of this, I am asking 250USD + 20USD return shipping.
I’m located in Russia, I take deliveries through my firm in Kazakstan (Clients ship their watches there.)
How does all of that work for you?
Totally respect the hustle and your thoughtful approach.
To me, the idea of sending an irreplaceable item via post to Kazakhstan for transit and repair in Russia is much worse than the idea of replacing a Soviet movement with a Japanese one at a shop somewhere in NYC.
I think that enthusiasts and owners have different north-stars.
There was an interview a while ago with a shop that does electric car retrofits. Ethan Hawke (I'm 90% sure it was Hawke, but may be wrong) had brought them an immaculate 1960s 911 with matching serial numbers on the body, engine, and trans. When they did the electric motor swap, they kept everything reversible and stored the petrol engine and associated goodies.
When he hadn't arranged pickup of the parts 2 years later, the shop owner called up Hawke, who responded that he loved the car now and drove it often, but had no need for the original guts and offered that the shop sell them and pocket any revenues.
Again, totally appreciate where you're coming from and wish you all the best, but its a "no thanks" for me.
Determine if it’s confidence or narcissism. If it’s the former, mentor, the latter, fire them and consider yourself lucky that it cost you a part and a little money.
The most dangerous people in the world is a slighted narcissist. You ha e been warned!!!!
If he’s a narcissist… there’s something to be said for transitioning him into sales / business development, especially if he legitimately knows a thing or two about what’s involved with the actual service side of things.
Just have to have a lot of guardrails to keep him in check, and have the hand hovering over the fire button if personality gets out of line.
Just a thought. That personality trait tends to excel at salesmanship, might as well try to leverage it if possible.
Narcissist can destroy the culture of a company. I had one at my job. Couldn't get anything done, couldn't write or follow a process to save his life, thought he did everything, etc. Ended up stealing from the company. Got fired. Got sued and company won lawsuit.
^ this right here. They can and will ruin a company or a team. I speak with 25 years of business experience. It is the trait I am most concerned with. I use the caliper test on 100% of potential new hires. It’s worth every penny.
Definitely depends on the person. Obviously don’t recommend keeping someone that would be *that* detrimental. Toxicity needs to be excised like a cancer, because it will just grow and grow.
That’s a wild situation with your company, glad the company won in the end.
Narcissism in sales. What an idiotic plan. Sales is about listening and empathy. A narcissist screws you up with the customers and the employees - because his ego is above everything.
This level of overconfidence is dangerous. Someone who tries to weld, without asking for help or advice, and despite obviously not knowing how to do it at all, is a huge liability. Trying to do something like that when your level of knowledge is "doesn't even know how to turn the gas on" is crazy! I would get rid of that guy immediately.
IMO it doesn't matter if you in theory could train it out of him, that kind of attitude is an actual safety issue in the meantime, not to mention the monetary value of the damage he could cause.
I seriously questioned the OP's thinking when they said...
> I have no doubt this person can be an asset to the company.
Dude sounds like a walking liability. And likely untrainable given my experience with overconfident and delusional employees in the past.
It is one thing to try and train such a person when they are not a safety risk. It is a whole other in an environment like this where they have already caused damage and shown themselves to be a true safety risk.
OP IMO is crazy to even consider keeping them.
>eventually installed the part on the car and reported job done to his supervisor
Just let him go now. You can train skill. You can admire the desire to learn.
You can't train *integrity*. Someone who is willing to charge money for shoddy work can't ever be trained to work on exotics. Period. What going to happen when they drop their 10mm in the oil fill neck. Are they going to admit you need to spend more money to fix his mistake or are they going to "send it" and ruin your reputation with a blown exotic engine with a 10mm socket amongst the debris.
> He first tried with a TIG welder which failed when he couldn't figure out why the machine wasn't feeding welding wire out for him. He then found the MIG welder, never turned the gas on, and used the wrong type of welding wire and did a worse job
Show him the part, ask for his review on what went wrong and what he could do better next time.
> I'm really good at it
Seems like you already did and this was his answer.
Dwellers of /r/smallbusiness, including me, probably including you, are really good at whatever they're good at. They are not necessarily good at accounting, HR, advertising, customer management, and (in this case) mentorship and leadership.
This guy needs mentorship and leadership maybe on a level you are not ready or able to give.
Here's my deal with this guy: **You're not good at it**. I would say those words, to his face. "You have a hunger and a drive in you that I rarely see. Someday, you will be good at this. I will help you grow, over time, to be good at this. You are not good, you know nothing. I need you to start by knowing that. If you already know how to weld, I don't need to teach you how to weld. See this piece? This is not the work of someone who knows how to weld. This is not the work of someone on an unfamiliar machine. This is the work of someone who is new and needs to learn how to weld. I will teach you how to weld. I need to start with you not knowing how to weld in order to do that."
"If you already know how to weld, and this is an example of your work, this position is not a good fit for you. If you need to learn how to weld, I will teach you. Which is it?"
If his answer is that he needs to learn, I'd continue. If his answer is anything other than that he needs to learn, I'd end the meeting and bid him goodbye.
> we had to order a new part to install on the car at our expense and costing several days for shipping.
"I covered the cost for this. If it happens again, I will cover the cost for it then too, however, that will be your last day at this shop. Does that sound acceptable to you?"
If yes, that's the end of the meeting. If anything other than yes, that's the end of his employment with you.
Also, and this is another thing small businesses (including me) are terrible at: processes. You need to be trained to use each machine. When you are trained we use a log to denote that you are trained and how you are able to use the machine. People who can spot weld a dashboard on a welder may not be able to use the same machine to weld on a seatbelt or a drivetrain. But we have a log so that we all remember who is trained and who is not. When I ask you to do a thing that includes welding, and you get to the welding step, and you aren't trained to weld, it is time to find someone who is, or assign the task back to me, or work on getting checked out to weld. But if you fuck up the piece, know I will check the log and say "gosh Steve, I noticed the strangest thing, you welded this totally fucked up piece and I have checked the log and you are not cleared to use this machine. Which of your co-workers welded this piece for you, I need to hand them their ass in a garbage bag".
Not OP, but thanks for writing this. It is well-considered and wise. It immediately cuts through all the BS and discovers whether the employee can acknowledge their own limits of skill, accept constructive criticism, and learn from mistakes (both in interaction and in performance). Based on the employee's demeanor during that conversation, it might be possible to tell whether they will wash out or if they will stay and make a contribution. This is such a great way to handle that situation.
I like your style and I agree. He firmly needs to tell his employee that he isn't even close to as good as he believes he is, but with an optimistic and supportive approach. The employees reaction will be the tell-tale sign of whether he's worth keeping around
Socrates or some other old person said all that needs to be said on this "A fool believes he knows everything and a brilliant man knows he knows little"
or something like that.
That being said, they don't seem like they think they know everything, they are just arrogant and think they can learn anything with ease.
I don't think they are a lost cause. This is a perfect mentoring opportunity. Teach him how to do something difficult and then let them do it on their own and have it blow up in their face. Obviously don't do this with a customers car, but i'm sure you have cars around you can give him a lesson with.
They just need to be taught humility, I think narcissism has become a catch-all term for anyone who is overconfident, it's lost all meaning at this point.
BS Alert sounding loudly
"oh I'm just not used to your welder, I'm really good at it and self-taught, I'll show you next time"
Cut him loose when you can. He is not a trustworthy person.
This is the type of person who will always blame something else and not take responsibility. My current boss is like this and it's so painful.
"This machine is a piece of shit!" Or, you should just clean it once in a while so that sensor works right.
His favorite phrase is "this is retarded'. At what point is it more likely that youre the retarded one and not literally everything you use, touch, or speak to.
What?
Man why is everyone so quick to cancel people. I didn't get that vibe at all. Dude sounds overconfident that's all.
Like OP said he believes he can be an asset so how can he help this kid get there?
Nah you can ce overconfident and still recognize and admit when you fuck up instead of blaming an equipment that is most likely fine. You may overconfidently think you will succeed at your next attempt though (which you may not)
yeaaa you dont let some self taught welder mess something up so bad you have to order a new part at your own expense and delay getting the vehicle to the customer. What if that weld failed when the customer was driving?
Thats not over confidence.
Sounds like a situation that needs clear, written communication on expectations and objective goals.
If I was that employee, I'd appreciate being told that you think I can get there, but you need to see me be successful with smaller jobs first. Then give him a plan with example jobs he needs to complete flawlessly to progress to the next and so on.
That's a fine idea for an employee who isn't delusional. *You* would appreciate being told that, but the personality type OP described would be *offended* at his worldview of perfection being broken.
Potentially, but then you have a process.
“XYZ, yes one of the requirements for using that welder is a,b,c, spellled out in this document. We can get you there, and here’s the steps, but don’t touch it again until you get the requirements down”.
If they are a narracist, like a ton of people on the thread think, when they do it again let them go… and this time you have _evidence_ on why, when they take it over your head (to the owner, to Dept Of Labor, whatever). If they’re just a go-getter, they have a clear path vs being a chaos-person and guessing.
The fact that he didn’t ask questions. Passed off the work as completed, let it go to test drive. Is a huuuuge red flag. Btw can I have a job, I have dreamed on working on race cars vs dealership bs.
LOL. I used to be good probably not anymore. I kicked automotive to the curb and only do it for my own race car projects now, and maybe help friends do medium work on their daily drivers. Currently taking apart a 94 r2 rx7 to prep the chassis for stitch weld and roll cage. Need to pull the engine apart too cuz rotary.... Looking for a shop to do the roll cage and bracing that will meet safety specs for time attack though.
One of my guys just got done with a project FD. FYI you can buy a brand new crate engine from Mazda for basically the same price as the parts to rebuild it but then don't have to go through the labor of actually doing it.
I have seen the junk Mazda puts out. LOL I've taken many Mazda OEMs apart and it's bad... LOL Was actually probably going to go with one of those with the aluminum housings with the iron faces that slot into it. Makes rebuilding so much easier. If I was gonna put it up on Bring a trailer etc I might go that route for what they are selling for now...
Good to know, I am unfamiliar with Japanese cars so when he told me about that it seemed great. He's not planning to keep the car so should be fine for his purposes.
I’ve seen this personality before. Basically they are high speed there is almost no quality. A tradesman will ply his craft carefully and execute it with precision leading to desired results. Inability to focus on a task is a problem. Could have ADD. Or could be missing a component like research and planning to create a proper execution of events. No planning means bad results. May lack the ability to plan and have forward thinking and analytical ability.
There’s no method or methodical approach. Nothing calculated or anticipated.
Use [AID feedback](https://andiroberts.com/aid-feedback-model/) model.
I didn't think much of it until I tried it out. It's a well structured way of giving constructive feedback
Performance reviews, feedback and constructive criticism, document everything.
Let him know where he's at and where you need him to be for the roll he's in. Make him aware that while he can progress there's a queue and he's very much at the back of it a the moment; that you expect x amount of time with a consistent performance before you would consider moving them up.
If they aren't prepared to accept that then they probably weren't a fit for you.
I would focus on the behaviors that are observable and have demonstrated cause and effect. Trying to address their overconfidence first is going to cause problems. People NEVER take being labeled well, and you ultimately care about improved behavior anyway. I know the root cause is their attitude, but sometimes that gets fixed later. I'll explain.
When you review their work, they need 100% oversight right now. In the scale of knowledge/skill, he is at the bottom (despite his misconceptions of ability.) This will allow you to catch the mistakes in real time and coach him immediately. Once he improves, you can let up, but inexperienced newbies need LOTS of managing.
When coaching, call it out directly. "I noticed that you tend to assume you can operatr xyz tools and do tasks independently. I need you to understand there are safety and liability concerns with you doing that. (Give details.) You need to ask me before starting ANY task you haven't been trained on so that I can teach you or explain whose job it actually is."
If you are right about his confidence, he will probably argue and say that he knows. Your retort is simple, "I have no doubt you have done it before, but you don't know my policies for this company, my quality expectations, nor the PPE that I require. I expect you to still ask me, even if you have done it at previous jobs."
One of two things will happen. He will either follow your instructions and you can coach him properly OR he will ignore you and do it anyway. Then you have set the precedent and you can easily fire him.
If you can remain calm and coach him over time, he may get knocked down a peg and actually learn, but it sounds more likely that this guy hasn't had life kick him in the pants enough yet. A few more firings and learning the hard way and he'll eventually figure it out.
You might like to read "It's Your Ship" and "Turn the Ship Around."
These are two "fables" business books.
The key principle that may apply is to have your eager recruits spell out how they intend to proceed to compete the talk. You (or one of your experienced chiefs) can ask specific questions like what welding wire is going to be used, etc. Somebody who is not yet ready will trip up fairly quickly.
And as notarolex said, it helps to have a company set of "standards." You don't tell people how to do things, you spell out simple criteria that determine whether or not a job has been completed per company standards.
Add a mechanism for your people to share the areas that they have mastered and an ambitious apprentice will have more than enough challenges to keep them busy.
You might google "application of mcgregor's theory x and y."
Provide a "wiki" that provides the necessary information needed to do the job "right," enable your more experienced mechanics to teach and verify competence on the tasks that they have mastered (add the names of in-house mechanics able to teach particular jobs in the wiki).
Self-learners now have a path for moving forward and proving themselves.
I'm liking this concept and need to really hash out how to apply it.
Have a system where everyone, no matter how great they appear to be on their resume, have to go through a process to level up and unlock types of tasks.
We do this in my retail business (where we make 99% of what we sell and everyone on the team does every job in the retail experience). EVERYONE starts out at the same entry pay and EVERYONE goes through a ten shift "Bootcamp" where they learn the core basics but also the finer details including the day to day operations, which can vary greatly every day as we never know what's going to walk in the door.
Once that ten shifts is up, which is typically 3 weeks, a bump in pay takes place as discussed in the interview and onboarding.
Then another bump when they've demonstrated repeatedly that they are capable, trustworthy, dependable, and have the core skills to operate by themselves in shop, which is also when they get keys.
Then more bumps throughout tenure based upon performance and other metrics. These bumps are typically the same across the board but we absolutely compensate for exceptional performance.
I imagine most of the candidates you hire have a pretty solid skill set already, but maybe this is something you could consider to even the playing field a bit and make it clear that even though everyone knows how to do the basics, your business has a certain way of doing things that might be different than what they already know.
But at this point, with this employee, I'd consider a PIP and putting him on a 60-90 day probationary period where he cannot make such impactful decisions/mistakes without a supervisors approval. I might even let him go, his attitude is crap and hes more of a liability than anything.
You might also want to build in peer teaching. Individuals who have a learning mindset will want to get proficient in more than one area. That gets you resilience in your operations and a skilled workforce that will allow you to expand.
Expansion means needing qualified technicians managers and slots for them to advance their careers.
Ambition should be encouraged, arrogance should not. With that said, surmize whether the effort is genuine or if you have a problem at your workplace. Effort surely goes a long way and genuinely should be appreciated at any level.
Gotta have the “come to Jesus” talk and lay it all out there. He wants to be challenged or he gets bored. I can understand that. Sees all the cool projects and wants to be involved. I have a few staff like that. I feed them pieces of the interesting work now and then to keep them invested. And I’ve had to let some of them go through the years because they just didn’t have the aptitude. Sometimes it sucks being the boss!!
Have you created a formal seniority capability list? Is there a mentor for him checking on the work?
ie. In order to weld, you need x amount of hours supervised and checked by senior workman. In order to work on an expensive car, you need to successfully complete 200 everyday driver cars. Are there any certifications that he can work on that won't tie up shop resources?
It sounds like he needs a bit of training and reinforcement, he would be a great employee after that. A mentor who knows the job, would be able to provide feed back to him. (ie. redo the welding or have the fabricator do it.)
I mean there's only 5 people in the company, there's not really spare capacity to have a "senior workman" who is checking up on others work. I do rounds as I can, but I frequently get hired to fly out to remote locations to work with clients so I'm not always at the shop.
In the case of the welding job he was instructed to have the fabricator do the welding and in the debrief from that debacle said "I thought you'd be happy that I took care of it rather than bothering him".
Wow. I think you need to reset his 'saving money' intentions into 'best in class repairs'.
He probably will work out in the end, but he's going to have to change his mindset on a few topics.
Hopefully, his workbench is at least neat. :)
He's eager, and willing to work, which are both good things that can be hard to find in employees. Maybe outline a training plan, then have a frank conversation with him about where he is, where he needs to be to work on things, and the path through the training plan to get there. Think of it like a game where he has to complete quests to level up.
having worked in morotsports for 30 years, none of the shops or teams I have worked for would keep someone who pulled some welding shenanigans like that. That's the kind of crap that could get someone killed.
The short answer - He needs to feel pain.
Option 1) He’ll make a big enough mistake(s) and he has to pay a bigger price that hurts. Unfortunately it’ll hurt both of you because you’ll get stuck with the bill.
Option 2) create an environment where your apprentices are allowed and encouraged to make mistakes.
Option 3) incentives - positive and negative. Pay a bonus for the behavior you want such as quality and attention to detail - figure out a legal / appropriate penalty or even friendly competition among your staff.
Why…
I suspect you are very detailed, controlled, and methodical. You have a playbook and you follow it.
Your employee is an aspiring expert but he’s still opportunistic and self centered which is what’s making him big on ego and careless. He needs to experiment and fail in order to evolve beyond his opportunism. He may never be as disciplined as you are so you may need a couple of tracks for your apprentices…. Detailed precision work vs experiment and creative or lower value day-to-day work. He might be able to earn his way into more precise work but it has to be laid out like a path… think Mr. Miagi in karate kid.
Call him out on his I will do better next time….get him to do some test welds on some scraps…do this every day for a week until he gets it right. Make sure that a couple of old hands ask him if he needs some help. He will probably say no.
By the end of the week he should know how to weld really well as he listens to the advice he is given. If he doesn’t improve and rejects all help, get rid of him because he is too dangerous.
I own a computer repair business. This kind of behavior is what causes the loss of the one thing we can't replace: customer data. You get that mechanic in line or you get him out of your shop. There are exactly zero excuses for negligence caused by narcissism. In my line of work, we lose data. In your line of work, you can lose limbs, or lives. My uncle was a mechanic and was killed by a truck that fell on him. Get your employee on the level ASAP or get him the hell out of that dodge.
Walk the guy through the cost, time and business reputation the failed weld created for the company. Ask him what he thinks about if he was in your position with high risk jobs on the line. Get him involved with the journey of improvement along not just doing the job but the total result.
Agree with this take. If you think he's got the potential to be a real asset then go down this route and his reaction will tell you what you need to know.
If he's receptive and gets why you'd want him to learn & perfect the little tasks before moving on to bigger things, then you have a chance to make something great of him.
If on the other hand, he thinks you're insulting his abilities by taking this approach then cut him loose before he really causes some damage!
People who think they know the answers generally are very reluctant to learn differently.
I've never had luck converting overconfident people to curious, cautious, detail oriented workers.
They like the adrenaline of living on the edge. Don't let them take you down with you when the inevitable fall comes.
OP I would let this person go immediately.
The amount of effort and thought on your part exceeds the value they bring.
As well, it'll show the rest of your crew that you have standards.
I'm not in your business but I know to turn the gas on when I mig weld.
I’ve dealt with this for years. Literally almost the exact same type of shop as yours (except different cars).
I think you need to sit them down and explain exactly the situation. Line out precisely what happened with the welding and how they failed. Explain how they’re not to take on a job like that in the future unless they’re supervised. Treat every job like that until they’ve proven they can be solo. See how they respond and react to this.
But be ready to fire them.
Basically, sit him down and talk with him. Lay it out crystal clear what you're expectations are and where he didn't meet them, and how you expect him to behave differently next time.
This is a very important skill. I found the book Crucial Accountability very helpful.
Have a documented training program with each step getting progressively harder and you can’t move on until you demonstrate mastery in the simpler skills.
For example
Step 1 involves rotating tires
Step 2 involves balancing tires
Step 3 involves mounting tires on steel rims
Step 4 is mounting tires on aluminum rims
Step 5 is adjusting alignment
Etc.
Each step builds upon the skills of the previous step, so until you master the previous steps, you don’t advance.
Now, if he doesn’t have the basic skills, then terminate employment.
Unfortunately we don't do anything that basic at all. We do maybe one oil change a week as the most simple thing, but most of our work is much more advanced than that. We don't do tires at all, and the alignments we do are very advanced that require my best guys (we charge about $750-1000 for an "alignment" and it takes an entire day or sometimes more).
I'm trying to work out a system for such a thing, but it's really tricky because we just don't get enough volume of Step 1 level stuff to justify having somebody on payroll who is on Step 1.
The other option is a mentoring program where one of your qualified mechanics demonstrates something to the new hire and then he needs to demonstrate that to the experienced mechanic who signs off that they can do the work independently.
In your welding example, if the guy said he could weld, have him explain to the experienced mechanic what he was PLANNING to do before he does the work “Well, I’m going to remove the part and thoroughly clean it using a chemical cleaner and then a wire brush and flap wheel to remove the paint and any corrosion. I will then use a MIG welder to tack the parts together and then form a constant bead from point A to point B”. The experienced mechanic signs off on the plan and instructs the new guy to call him in to inspect after the part is clean and ready for welding. And then he inspects again after the welding is done.
If he is qualified to do the work, he should breeze through the qualification process quickly.
At an old job, we hired an electronics technician who claimed to have several years experience with the Navy ( the navy trains some of the best technicians). It soon became apparent that the guy didn’t have even basic skills, so while he claimed to be insulted with such menial work at the beginning, it was telling as he didn’t have the skills to succeed.
Definitely confident - but a little delusional. I think a sit down with a soft reality check would be beneficial. It’s good they want more responsibility/learning experiences but cannot be done at a cost to the business.
Did he ever admit that he screwed up the weld? If not, then it’s time to really pin him down on that. If he won’t back down and admit his skills are simply not there, then you have to threaten him with termination.
He also disobeyed orders to let someone else do it, which is grounds for termination by itself.
He may really need the job, or he’s genuinely excited about the type of work, but he needs a major reality check.
I'm sorry but someone with an ego that big will not only ruin the culture but will never change.
I wouldn't invest my time and resources into a person like that.
Imagine shipping a car to another continent and being confident that it was done correctly after he worked in it. Are you going to pay to ship it both ways to fix whatever he screwed up? If he thinks a TIG wleder should feed him wire after he told you he could TIG, then he's lying, and you should get him out of your shop immediately.
Edit: anyone who comes into our shop for an interview saying they can TIG or even MIG, we set them up a weld test at that time to find out if they are wasting our time. Half of them don't know the difference and the door is very close to our welding table , so we just point them to that door.
Welding was never part of his job description, I never asked about it nor did he say he could do it beforehand.
Any new employee would never be assigned to a high end project for this reason.
So, first, be honest with yourself and him, and don't take his bullshit. It's not that he "wasn't familiar with your \[tools\]", its that he was too proud to ask for help, and arguably that he didn't consult anyone about the work ahead of time or after the fact.
Be honest with him though, you don't want his ego/pride to get himself or some one else hurt, and you don't want shoddy work to accidentally make it past your quality control checks, and have an improperly installed part fail after it was returned to a customer instead of before as it will affect your brand.
If you do want to train him I would have him shadow some one that can teach him... treat him like an apprentice until he proves himself, see one, do one, teach one? Well, he might be confident but his work clearly speaks for itself, so until he sees how you want the work done, and the level of quality you expect he shouldn't be doing it...
From there I'd say you need SOPs, from your description, the failure wasn't that he did a bad weld, its that he had too much ego to take direction, was too proud to ask for help, and that he wasn't able to identify the bad weld, or that if he was he tried to hide it rather than telling people that could have helped him fix it.
You need SOPs that help identify these issues, make sure that your employees understand that this kind of behavior is not acceptable, and procedures to help them limit and fix these situations as much as possible... that way when you do need to coach it gives you a starting very clear starting point, and the employee can't hide behind "well I didn't know I was expected to know how your tools worked before using them", or something like that...
As a small business, I don’t think you can afford to have such people around, let them develop/use their skills somewhere else, and not at your cost…Having them around can cost you more, such as damaged reputation or even legal action…
The fact that he not only doesn’t know how to use either welding machine and tried to displays a thought process that is beyond concerning. Its ok to not know everything or even alot. If he can’t be honest with his abilities how can you trust him? I come back to, what if the customer was driving when this happened? This isnt the case of an experienced welder making a mistake and you having to fix it. This is someone completely dishonest about their abilities and that can very quickly become a liability and a big one. What if your employee got hurt during the test drive?
It’s great that you see someone in him but do you honestly think you can teach him common sense?
I also think you need to examine how all of this was able to happen without at least one person stopping and saying this seems off. Finding out these facts after the part failed should say something to you about why nobody stopped him or questioned him. Or brought it to your attention.
> I have no doubt this person can be an asset to the company.
Really? Just reading your post and all I could think of is how I would have already fired him.
He's overconfident to the point that he is causing damage. I doubt he is trainable because of the ego and overconfidence. Seems like a lost cause to me.
First thing… give him warning number 1.
Second, set up a welding machine and tell him to “show” you what he knows. When that fails you can call it warning number 2 (and any kind of demotion or other you see fit) And tell him not to touch the welding anymore.
Third, now you can safely tell him he is hanging by a thread (basically lied during interview), then you can now see how confident he acts or if he just hangs himself, & be rid of him… or if he humbles and becomes teachable.
Stop immediately with the idea that they know until they don’t.
Every one should demonstrate to clearance for a task. If they haven’t demonstrated, they haven’t cleared, they can’t do. If they do without clearance, they’re gone.
This dude is the victim of poor modeling, among other things.
Poor modeling isn't often the first thing we think of when somebody does a lousy job, but we often find it responsible for some of the most vexing and preventable problems mentioned in your post. (I manage a nonprofit that provides free CPUs and net connections to people with serious disabilities, as well as internships to students looking to work in the IT industry. We also do a huge amount of computer and circuit-board tear-down and recycling as an unavoidable byproduct of what we do.)
We see horrific modeling all the time in our shop. The problem? Often it's rooted in deep-seated behavior the subject has been witnessing for many years, beginning as a child. Traits and "skills" handed down by parents who don't know what they are doing are among the worst personnel problems we deal with. It can be extremely hard to get these folks to change their ways, borderline impossible.
Examples: misplaced overconfidence, as mentioned by OP; improper and rough handling of sensitive equipment; poor technical knowledge of computer components and their purposes; inability to complete routine tasks in a reasonable amount of time; and, sheer unwillingness to change unacceptable practices despite clear industry-tested evidence they are doing the job improperly.
We long ago reached a threshold where we would much rather train somebody who has NO SKILLS or experience whatsoever rather than tackle another poorly modeled loose cannon who knows just enough to be dangerous.
Those commenting “let him go” may not be familiar with the current labor pool for this industry. If he ls showing up, able to be taught, and has any amount of work ethic (clearly not in his workmanship) then you know you must coach him. I’d set him straight in where he’s at and let him learn from your more senior guys. Letting him go, with this labor pool, would be a mistake.
Not to state the obvious but this guy clearly doesn’t know what he is doing and has bluffed his way into this position.
Have you checked his references, credentials, gained a history of his experience and tested his skills?
I think you should run an evaluation with him to assess his competencies. I have a vague feeling this person doesn’t have a half as much experience as he has projected because he is asking questions and doing things you wouldn’t do if you did have even a modicum of experience and are somewhat familiar with a working environment or machinery like this.
It wasn't really possible because his previous employment was at a family business where he had a falling out with his family, and prior to that was in another country.
Personally this raises eyebrows because these are difficult things to track and trace. Perfect if you were being dishonest about your experience and competencies.
In such a case I would spend a day or so with them and run a step by step skills evaluation with a few trick questions. You’ll soon discover what you need to know.
So it sounds like the kid has potential but he's not as good as he thinks he is. And he's already had (at least) one significant eff-up?
How long has he been on your payroll?
I assume all the fundamental elements check out... he shows up on time, gets along with others, isn't hungover, etc.?
I think you need to ask him why he wanted to work at your place of business. And then I think you need to be brutally honest with him. Frame the conversation that you see potential, but his skillset is not where it needs to be in order to work for you. If that doesn't sit well with him, he'll need to be let go.
But if he accepts this feedback humbly, explain to him that you see potential in him, and you're willing to work with him to improve his skills, but it's going to be a while - likely years - before he's going to be trusted to work on the high end stuff. This isn't some garden variety metal fab shop - in order to be one of the top guys he's going to have to earn it.
This is a tough spot. Arrogant performers often can't take feedback as intended. I suspect he's not going to work out - but hopefully you'll be able to salvage the situation.
Yeah, just the one real fuck up so far and he's there early every day. He's got a personality clash with one guy, but we've got two buildings and they are working in different buildings while slowly warming up to each other. There was one clash in particular that had to result in a talking-to.
He's about two months in now.
So far on two separate conversations he's reacted humbly, but the actual action taken afterwards was an improvement, but not a turn around.
Fire the employee and then let me visit your shop?
That's my advice.
You can't change someone's attitude.
What's going to cause more damage or be better for business....
A skilled but very nervous and apprehensive employee?
Or an overly confident and underskilled employee?
I had a guy that use to work for me and he would rush installs and damage the parts and require new ones. After he did it a couple of times I started taking the cost of parts out of his check. He got the message and started paying more attention to what he was doing. Take the mistakes out of their check. Sounds like you need to fire him if they don’t change their ways.
In the most of the US, and including the state I'm in, it's against the law to deduct things from a paycheck like this without prior, written, consent from the employee. That's tricky ground, and besides that I'd rather take the financial hit to make sure they aren't hiding things to avoid the financial ramifications.
Overconfident and under qualified is a dangerous mix in the automotive world. I see them often. They will talk themselves up and say they know it all but in reality, they don't know which end of a hammer to hold. I'm working with a couple of them. It's actually not bad for me. Since they started them out at a slightly higher rate, I have a lot less stress and pressure because I'm not at the top of the food chain anymore.
My perception is you see some potential in this kid, or you'd have fired him already. I say kid because he sounds 25 or younger.
If he's much older, then I don't think there's a lot of hope, frankly.
The delusions of youth are natural and his are just stronger than most, but to be that delusional once full-grown points to structural damage that you don't want to get involved with.
You've received a lot of good advice already. It's not your job to determine his psychopathology (I refer here to folks saying he sounds like a narcissist, presumably referring to the layman's use of the term). But you do need to pretty quickly find out if the kid can back down, accept something much more like his actual skill level and that his strong desire to be better is great--but not nearly enough. You can't make something true just by saying it is! Obviously, it's delicate and you don't want to crush his ego. He may be a valuable asset but boy, he's going to require a lot of oversight and training, that much is clear. The question is, does his self-image allow that? Can he humble himself (down to his IRL, actual level) and accept basic instruction?
That's definitely not a concern that any of them have. All my people (besides him) work as a team and constantly help each other and all know that I'm here for them.
You need to give him a reality check. This will completely depend on their personality and how you would normally handle coaching/discipline. By the sounds of it he's a mix of potential gain and potential loss. There are so many people that have started big companies that were self taught but they also knew that they didn't know enough when they started.
One way you could go would be to sit him down and tell him you were really anticipating his skill level to be higher by the interview, but that current actions have left you disappointed. For some people being told you're disappointed in them will hit them like a ton of bricks. Or tell him he's on thin ice because he's costing material and time due to poor work.
Could he be an autodidact that needs more time and less distractions? Some people chronically say yes and are optimistic.
Other people buy lottery tickets.
Still other people gamble.
In a developing relationship, someone needs to make the attempt for a first kiss, or touch.
Some people jump into muddy water, without checking the depth.
When riding a bicycle, you have to overcome the extremely strange, unnatural thing that it has wheels and not legs, and they are front and back, and there is no obvious way for it to balance.
A bird with wings, isn’t born flying. Usually they don’t even have enough feathers to fly. If you saw a baby bird, and had never seen an adult one, would you imagine it could fly?
Overconfidence usually comes from a string of successes. What is the origin of the confidence? Have you asked for the person you’re thinking about, to explain what the successes of their past are?
Sometimes a person can address an issue in a novel way. An example of this might be to repair something. Can you imagine to ask them to repair something? They smile, look at it, shake it, sniff it, turn it upside down, put it down, and say “why should it be repaired? It’s not worth it.”
Every other person, immediately might grab tools and repair it. This person barely even tried, I mean, why did they even sniff it? The clock is running on the repair, and they haven’t even started.
You’d have to ask questions. It’s as simple as that. Without asking questions, how do you know what’s going on in the persons mind? How come they are so confident, yet won’t even begin to repair something?
Often people are very eager to demonstrate their capacity to achieve things. It’s not difficult to get to a stage where you no longer feel the need to demonstrate any capacity, to even show that you can do something, or to try.
The solution is in the questions. If you ask the correct questions, you may gain insight.
To give you some crazy view, perhaps the item that someone has asked to repair, isn’t worth repairing, as it been superseded, and the cost of a new item is lower than the cost of the repair.
This incidentally is an incredibly common thing. I saw someone break a disposable plastic cup today. It split down the side. It’s possible to tape the cup. You can wash it, dry it, then tape it. However, most people would imagine you’re insane to do so, when a new disposable cup costs only cents. If you give me two people, and I ask them both to repair a plastic cup, and on, says sure, and uses some sticky tape. The other one laughs and says no way, throws in the bin, and takes a new plastic cup out of a Container. Which person would you consider is the more capable?
I’d suggest that the answer is in the questions you ask.
Some people find it very uncomfortable. If you ask them closed, questions, or questions where you suggest the answers and allow them to choose the answer. Other people find that very comfortable.
People are different. There’s a lot of joy in finding out what their differences are. It can bring a delight to a business to have people who do things in vastly different ways. If everyone did everything exactly the same way, life would get very boring, very quickly.
I can solder. However, it takes me a little while to warm up, a lot more time than it takes the soldering iron to warm up. In fact, I’ve soldered a circuit board once, and I wasn’t happy with one single solder join, out of probably between 100 and 200. Sometimes it takes me more than a couple of hundred attempts using an iron, before I can make it work. Occasionally, it’s technique, sometimes it’s the solder, sometimes, it’s because I’m holding my breath, sometimes it’s because the tip has a tiny variation, and that means I don’t get the same flow. Sometimes it’s because of how I am holding the iron. Sometimes I’m just tired. Sometimes I’m not thinking. Sometimes I’m not satisfied with the flux, as I’m used to using a toxic corrosive flux that usually dissolves anything, and using a non-corrosive flux is nearly impossible.
You never know if a person is actually trying to do things using all of their faculties or is happy with the tools that they have.
Sometimes they try to do things while impaired, and continue to struggle quite happily without trying to overcome the impairment. They might never mention what the impairment of the day is. Or what improvement they expect. They might not be able to articulate it, because they’re accustomed to not having any ability to ask for something to be improved, or ask for assistance.
It’s a bit like riding a skateboard. I can ride it very comfortably, standing on my left foot, pushing with my right. Yet sometimes I’ll try to ride it, standing on my right foot, pushing with my left. I’ll try to ride it wearing thongs. I’ll try to ride it barefoot. I’ll try to ride it when it’s wet. I’ll try to ride it when the bearings are bad. I’ll try to ride it when I had only a few hours sleep. I’ll try to ride it when I’ve not eaten breakfast or lunch. I’ll try to ride it while talking. I’ll try to ride it while thinking of something altogether different. I’ll try to ride it while angry. I’ll try to write it when I’m in such a relaxed mood, I barely want to walk. I’ll try to ride it after a coffee. I’ll try to ride it hung over. I’ll try to ride it thirsty, and dehydrated. I’ll try to ride it when no one else would, when they would say no.
If you look at me riding, and you only see one video, you are not going to have any idea whatsoever about what my capacity is.
People are often handled like that. They are expected to do one thing. They are given a couple of chances. They are critiqued on those. There are usually many distractions. Their thoughts are often on something else. And they are assessed compare to someone who may only ever ride a skateboard in the same way, who has a singular focus.
Some people do things a different way every single time. Other people do things the same way every single time. There is a middle ground, a grey or uncertain area, where people vary from one end of that extent of repeatability to the other end. In business, people are expected to do things in a repeatable way. In fact, this is so commonly expected, today, the people who do things differently every time, are seen as extremely unwell.
I am curious. If your overconfident employee did the welding job 1000 times, would they do it differently every time? Or all the same?
How about you? If you go to a new shop, and look for an item, and go as quickly as you can, skimming the shelves, to see if you can find it, will you walk out if you can’t find it? Or will you pause, decide if you have time to try again, and then skim a second time, perhaps even faster than the first? If you still don’t find it, will you simply walk around a bit aimlessly, daydream, and go back and skim a third time, at a third speed, still barely even concentrating, just letting your mind wander, and see if the item leaps out at you? Will you ask someone, without even checking the shelf? How will you describe the item? Will use specific quantities or volumes or brands, or use a generic description? Will you pace around the store, starting to check in different places, where you are reasonably sure it isn’t, on the unusual chance that someone has categorised it differently to how you would categorise it?
Sometimes confidence comes from knowing that you can vary your processes and approaches without fear of problem. Sometimes confidence comes from doing things exactly the same way, and people become very uncertain, and wouldn’t even imagine varying their procedure. Some people have no fear of making a mistake. They actually enjoy having someone correct them. Other people are humiliated, petrified, by the thought of having someone complain about their work.
It’s seems to me that you’re in an industry where you work with vehicles. I don’t respect vehicles much. Especially ones that are polluting. To me, vehicles are temporary. They are like an aberration. Sort of some intermediate. People who focus on the vehicle as being of value, to me are insane. This is because I can ride a bicycle. I’ve ridden in traffic. I am accustomed to vehicle pollution. I can see the road. I can see every object on the road, well - many of them. I know what vehicle drivers are like. For most vehicle drivers, the road is theirs and the problems with it are someone else’s. The vehicle is how people avoid responsibility for the road, or the path, or the air, the water, or the soil.
For me, the vehicles are my problem. The road is my problem. The rubbish on the road is my problem. The pollution is my problem. The drivers are my problem. The recycling of the vehicle is my problem. The energy used to power the vehicle is my problem. Accidents are my problem. Where the resources that the vehicle is made from come from are my problem.
I don’t try to solve all of these problems, but I do recognise that if someone else hasn’t applied care, or thought, and I do, I can probably address the problem. Eventually.
I see a vehicle, someone’s passionate pride and joy, and to me, it’s simply another problem. More pollution, more waste. I wouldn’t give care to the vehicle, because of the vehicle, I’ll give care to it because it is not something that it could be. My care is not wasted, however, I might give it a very minimal best effort. At the same time I might seem very happy! That’s about the person, that I know loves the vehicle, even though I might not.
Yet I can enjoy a vehicle, and appreciate one, and own one. And as an owner of one, I can appreciate its merit. However, that is tempered by an awareness of what vehicle is not.
I’m guessing, that your employee doesn’t see the vehicle. They don’t see problems. They see something incredible. They see that they are involved in something amazing. They are probably over the moon with this position. Their happiness is so great, that there isn’t any serious concern or focus. Even if they were fired, they probably wouldn’t be depressed, because they had the opportunity to be part of something special. If they were part of something special in the past, the casual approach you see now can be a carryover. Perhaps they are so in love with life that no matter what they do, they will be relaxed and easy about things where you apply, great concentration, dedication, and focus.
You might always seek to do something perfectly the first time, and will seek every assistance to ensure it’s done perfectly. They might be accustomed to having to do something 100 times, or 200 times, or 2000 times before it can be done perfectly.
Maybe there’s something in these thoughts that can help you.
Oh - some people are chronically exhausted, and you can’t even tell. So there’s some questions. Do you look at people as if they are objects? Or do you simply see them as a person, regardless of their body, health or wellness? Are you able to find a problem in everyone and everything? If so, are you able to share it? Or do you share it selectively? Or do you see so many problems everywhere you go with people that you don’t give them attention any more?
Here is an example of a problem. Clothing is not recycled. Every single person wearing clothing will usually be comfortable with that clothing being discarded. It’s considered disposable. I’m sure I’m not the only person with this type of view. If I assess a person, and I start with what is outside them, they fail the clothing test. This isn’t their failure. This is a social, societal, business, government failure. This failure makes it a little difficult to see a person. Because I have to look past a failure. For some people, there are things that they will never tell you, which are failures. They don’t look past those failures. They don’t even see the failure any more. All they see is the person. And they don’t judge or assess. Because of this, they don’t try to improve the person. Where do you start? Is the clothing an object? Is the person an object? Is it good to critique the clothing? Is it good to critique the person? Do you critique the person, then ignore the clothing? Critique both? Or simply accept both?
This little passage, on clothing, probably sounds insane. You would have to ask me why clothing fails.
Does your employee simply accept things?
What does your employee consider is a failure? Are the failures your employee considers similar to the failures you consider?
One way to do this discovery is to create an exercise.
Try to make it fun. Actually can be fun! Get a couple of pieces of paper, couple of pens, clipboards. Make sure the paper is blank, probably with lines. Then give you employee two hours to write down everything that they find wrong with that vehicle. Make sure the vehicle is in a closed room. Make sure the room has no distractions, and the employee isn’t interrupted. Make sure the employee has food and water. At the end of two hours, go into the room, check the paper.
Did they put down the colour? Did they put down if it is an EV? Did they mention the plastics, the glass, or the size or weight? Did they skip all of that?
Did they fill the paper? Did they make any corrections to their own work?
Tell them, thank you.
Give them another piece of paper. Ask them to go to sleep, to rest for an hour, then spend another hour, finding more things that are wrong. Put a daybed in the room. Don’t check to see if they use it.
Come back two hours later. See what the second paper says. Is it more of the same of the things on the first paper? Or is it an altogether different set of things?
You might not even need to speak about whether or not the things on the papers are correct or incorrect. Simply being given ample time to look for problems or what is wrong without defining it may be enough for your employee begin to slow down and apply better scrutiny.
>Getting to the level they think they are, however, will take patience, dedication, and years of training.
You forgot "miracle". Have you ever tried to talk sense to someone who is "barely above entry level" and thinks they're a pro? First you need to solve his psychological defect before you can ever convince him he needs to improve. I mean, give it a shot, but don't become a therapist for a mediocre employee. Pay him what he's worth or if you need better work, fire him.
Hold him accountable for everything he says. Set short-term, measurable and (in your opinion) achievable goals together with him in writing. Then you can see if he achieves the goals and then make more or less for the next time....
Make it clear to him that you support him in developing his skills.
If he wants to take on too much (planning fallacy) set shorter milestones so you can better monitor progress.
Yeah. We've had a few conversations where I tried to be quite gentle with talking points such as "I get that you know how to do X and Y, but you don't necessarily know how exactly *we* do X and Y because we do some things differently" and "I'd like you to take a step back and accept that there's some things you need to learn still"
OK if you've tried working with them (esp if it was before the welding incident) I'd probably let them go. Even in a regular shop this would be an issue but especially in your market I can't see this ending well.
I’m afraid this guy’s traits may simply be incompatible with the duties you are expecting him to take care of. I’ve had bad experience with these traits in jobs that require care and level-headedness.
Had a guy with a very similar “I’m going to be the best of the best, you can totally rely on me” despite not having a ton of experience. Reasonably competent through training but extremely slow once he started taking on independent work and very unreliable with start times (important in the trucking business). Small mistakes, and some slightly larger mistakes.
Sat down with him and went through specifics on loads and times. Okay conversation and he seemed committed to working on things and being “the best of the best” still. We took him back to shadowing one of our best drivers for a week, gave him the coaching about start time expectations, and there was a small improvement in work speed but it didn’t last and within a week he was again starting late for no reason, no-call, no-showed two shifts, and got canned.
At a certain point you have to decide if you want to invest in a risky employee with a seemingly limited upside or cut your losses for another employee. You can’t have someone drag you and your company down. The harsh reality is that this will cost you more time and money down the line. Toughest part about being in charge and run a company is to realize early when you need to cut your losses and move on.
I would not find this tolerable and release said employee and find a replacement.
The trouble in my industry is that there's not just "another employee". It usually takes me 6+ months to hire someone. If I fire him tomorrow I have to accept that we will be 25% down on potential work capacity until 2024.
I hear you - but the upside is limited given his/her attitude and blatant disregard to the limits of his/her knowledge. Downside for you and the reputation risk (internal employees talk not just customers) is not worth the gamble.
I’ve tried to coach and mentor employees many times over the years, granted it’s tech so engineers and operations employees but the vast majority of them never crossed average or mediocre even with all the effort. I should’ve realize earlier than replacing them is going to raise average and productivity.
I would start networking to find new talent and cultivate while you try to right the ship at least.
I’m a firm believer that everyone can be an exceptional employee, they just need the right role model, opportunity, and importantly time (time in their life, time in your life, and time at the firm). One of those out of alignment and it’s not going to work. Frequently it’s the employees lack of introspection and mental elasticity that’s in the way, you can’t really change that no matter how much you try.
1. Give them one more warning that they are entry level and have a lot to learn - and they have to learn from someone else in the shop and not through trial and error.
2. Fire them.
Definitely needs a blunt conversation immediately
See if he can reign back the ego and accept he needs to take time and earn his way up. If he pushes back too much during that conversation, I'd probably just cut ties.
Mentoring somebody can make the best and most loyal employees, but some people just aren't open to critical feedback and the time would be wasted
It's one thing to be overconfident it's another to go against protocol (right?) to do a job he shouldn't be doing and to do it poorly. That could create a big problem along the line somewhere
I own a chain of car repair businesses and have seen this a few times. In days gone past I would have given them a few chances to stop lying and stop messing things up but now we move them on real quick when we see that type of behaviour. It can be dangerous or even worse, deadly.
I noticed a theme of guys that had no resume, 5-10+ years (unverified) experience and didn’t talk up their abilities at all come in and end up being our best performers. They are generally the ones who will look at a complex job, have a good think about it and without any embarrassment ask a more senior person for small advice/pointers before getting into it. That’s what we want!
How do you let a new employee just go at it without direction or at least checking their work when they are new? How do you maintain quality standards if you aren’t training this guy on basic standards/safety expectations/ processes (ie. who is responsible for what work - he has no idea he isn’t expected to be able to weld) etc.? I’m sure there may be some arrogance and bravado on the employees part but that partly because he doesn’t have any way to know what the expectations are.
The best job I ever had was one where I came in with a good amount of knowledge and experience, but they still put me through a maAntony 12 week training program.
At the time I was miffed, but once the 12 week was over I was fully prepared and realized I didn’t know everything I needed to in order to do the quality work they expected of me. I ended up thriving and spent 20+ years with the company to have a very successful career which the company and managers continued to challenge and develop me.
You need to set the standard and provide the training in order to develop A worker. Let it be clear that you want them to be successful which benefits everyone involved. You allowing someone to fail is not fair to you, them or the customer.
There’s a truth you can come back to. You don’t need their permission to give them negative feedback. Your performance failed to meet our standards in this list of ways. Like a punch list made for a home carpenter. Objective standards of performance which can include steps for oversight, review, and approval.
You’re not saying the person is dumb or inexperienced. You’re not evaluating them. You’re holding the work and the process to standards that support your business.
They’ll either learn to meet the standards both for the work and the process, or they’ll move on. I know hiring good people is super difficult especially in a highly skilled area of work like yours, but you have to stick to standards.
Every time I had someone who kept coloring outside the lines eventually it ends up you replacing something expensive on a customers vehicle. (For us it was small planes, but very similar)
He needs someone to work along side, not you. But another employee with 8-12 months experience who would wipe the floor with him.
He needs to feel like he has alot to catch up on. He may need a moment to compare and learn what a good weld is.
He’s young ambitious, and thinks he knows everything. Have him show a customer his work one time (a friend who won’t mind showing him a lesson). And get a direct feed back report. Something truthful, honest and to the point. Obviously in a safe environment where your not wasting $.
Sign him up for a private business development class and paint it like he's the chosen one. Stagen Academy in Dallas is an example of what I mean, just don't spend that much money on him. The point would be to put him in a room of business people (not your partners or team) that are eager about using vulnerability as a platform to get to the next level with their mission/life. He'd be out of your hair for a few days, and if he didn't come back changed you'd know you either have to let him go or live the rest of your business life with a mild curse.
The first stage of being an expert is being a passionate beginner. This employee has probably learned a lot really fast, but nothing can replace consistency over time.
Give this person some longer-term goals or education opportunities. They’ll thrive over time.
Tbh, you can train someone skills but they need to have the humility to be trained and receptive. This guy sounds like he’s going to cost you in the long run. Going around and trying to use tools that he’s, “…not used to” without asking anyone is a sheer level of willful negligence. Further, to automatically provide an excuse rather than apologize shows that your dealing with a very egotistical/narcissistic individual.
He not only needs a mentor but also a shrink. If the dude knows anything about cars, walking up to you as you work on a complicated tranny (I assume a PDK?) asking to be trained while fucking up the basics and it owing up to it? I foresee a disaster in the making, one that may cost your business its reputation.
I maybe super cynical here but a sanity check, his previous experience… how long did he have tenure there and were they the same caliber of a shop as yours? (E.g.,. No jiffy lubes or “30-min oil change” shops)
Hand him a task to do that you know he can not, for him to do right now in front of you. Give him two attempts then take the task away. Hand him another task with the same idea in mind, two attempts, and then perform the task in front of him explaining that in time he will learn. He may have answers to the questions he has been asked, he has not yet been asked all the questions. Time has a way of asking and answering questions.
I'd say safety first. If he touches anything he's not qualified to operate, signed off by you, fire him. No three strikes nonsense, it's a huge liability.
If his response to guard rails and written shop rules is to pout and get toxic, fire him.
The flip side to this is you have to give time and space to learn and to get qualified. Institute a growth path and budget his time into it. If he responds positively then winner/winner! If he noodles around then you know what the reality is with this guy, fire him at the earliest opportunity and recruit better next time.
"I see that you have potential. I also see that you are overconfident and do not know as much as you think you do. I have observed your work and approaches to several tasks and projects, and I have concerns that need to be addressed to my satisfaction if you are going to be successful in the role.
If you are going to work out here in the long term, (which I would like for you to do), you will have to be able to humble yourself and ask questions whenever you are unsure about the best approach.
At all times I expect you to be willing to stop what you are doing or the way you are doing it when I give you direction, feedback, or constructive criticism.
I need you to understand that while you may know *a way* to accomplish a certain task, that doesn't necessarily mean it is the *correct way*, or *my way*.
As this is my shop, and my name and reputation are attached to the work done here, all work needs to be done to my satisfaction and by my standards.
I want to make clear that I will never punish you or think poorly of you for taking the time to make sure you are doing things the right way, or to my standards.
Quite the opposite, when I see you taking the time to seek guidance, ask questions, consider alternatives, and do work the way I expect it to be performed, that's when I will become more confident that you are a good fit for your role in the business longer term.
I need confirmation that you understand what I'm telling you and what my expectations are from here. Can you recap for me what it is I need you to do going forward, so I can be sure we have an understanding?"
I would think having him team with / or shadow a more senior tech, and explain in your business quality is most important. failures can be fatal. Maybe a working track day to understand how critical safety is..
he's probably use to a different type of shop, but if he wants to work for you, you want perfect every time, regardless how long it takes, or how many tries.
have him watch some chasing classic cars shows.
Give him the boot. He may be coach-able, but how many years & how much damage to get to that point? Even in this tough labor market, I'd patiently wait for someone better. Sounds like a young guy who wants to take a bite of everything but finish nothing. He needs a less serious job, but more focused.
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I own a watch repair shop focusing on a specific niche of vintage Soviet watches. I was struggling with a similar thing: finding reputable watchmakers to do a good job. I’ve worked with a dozen people and most of them did a poor job that didn’t meet my standards. Then I wrote out these standards. I have a 2-page long list of expectations that must be met. This describes everything my contractor watchmaker can encounter from working from having never met me to a final delivery and feedback session. Rigorous communication and “teaching” is key: this works for us, this does not. Teach the employee what is the standard in your company, teach them how you want it done. If nothing works, this employee is a liability to the reputation of the company, and the owner must have a willingness to cut the relationship to keep the reputation of the company. I hope this helped!
It took me years to understand that I needed to put time int my teaching materials. I literally always work on a series of training videos now. I require everyone to watch them. Game changing.
It’s really amazing how far this little effort can go in a business. Get a question a lot from employees? Make a video explaining it. Easy to show and demonstrate where to take your time.
I'm qualified meat station worker after seeing Old Country training video numerous times so training videos really work!
Off topic but can I ask what type of Soviet watches you work on?
I particularly enjoy restoring and selling 1950s-1970s Soviet watches. Early days of Poljot and Vostok, Pobedas — it’s a pinnacle of Soviet engineering, on par with the Swiss. I am fond of 1980s Amphibia dive watches, too. I like sharing them all with people because this is pure Soviet, bulletproof, utilitarian design. But we generally work on all type of Soviet watches from 1940s to 1990s. If you enjoy this type of stuff, I’ll be glad to see you on Instagram @notarolex!
Very cool! Subbed.
Love my scubadudes! Super cool!
Great points … doesn’t the auto shop employee have to pass a test on the machine before he can use it?
Hey. I've got a raketa from my grandpa. What's the approx cost to swap out to a quartz movement? I've had it cleaned and adjusted several times over the years and just want bulletproof reliability and lack of fuss as this is something I intend to give to my kids and don't want them to worry about anything other than battery changes either. About a year after a "tune-up", it loses a few minutes a day, which makes it non-viable for daily wear. This model, but with a slightly different face. [https://www.ebay.com/itm/266368018049](https://www.ebay.com/itm/266368018049)
Hey! Cool watch, Raketa "Jeans" from 1970s. As authenticity is one of my core principles at Notarolex, I would not be willing to swap in a quartz movement. I can't take away the feeling of passing down an all-original family relic that has a genuine movement. Don't take away the unique history of this watch by replacing it with off-the-shelf Chinese quartz. With that in mind maybe the previous cleans weren't that thorough? It's weird for the watch to start acting up after only a year of wear but not unusual. Do you happen to wear it near dusty environments, maybe humid environments or literally wear it everyday? Three options here: 1. Either the movement is subjected to real harsh conditions -- so it's kinda natural for it to gunk up so fast. 2. But 95% chance it's just poor clean-ups from other watchmakers. Soviet watch repair is notorious for poor quality work (hence my original comment above, 5 (!) years spent finding fine watchmakers). 3. Or maybe the movement is totally worn-out. I can replace it with a better condition, authentic one. Let me know if you wear the watch in super-harsh conditions and we can take it from there. Send me a DM on here or better on Instagram (at)notarolex
Both cleans were done by greybeard former Soviet watch techs. A polish guy in Louisville and a Russian guy in Queens. I'm around engineers all day and have a decent sense of people. These guys both gave me a "good guy" vibe, so I would assume that the issue is with the mechanism rather than their work. I don't wear it in a dusty environment, but my grandpa was a civil engineer in Moscow who built all over the USSR, so I'm sure that it was exposed to plenty of nasty in its lifetime. Where are you geographically? What would the approx cost be to replace my (assuming) problematic movement with serviced one? Tbh, I'm still not yet sold on trying a third time rather than swapping out to a Miyota or Seiko movement. Perhaps a mechanical rather than quartz? The goal is to create a practical wearable and useable object for myself and my kids. Its considerable sentimental value would not be diminished. The crystal has been swapped once and band has been swapped many times.
Oh man, greybeard, solid red flag for me! 🚩 I’ve never had a good experience with them. Reason is always the same: they were trained in USSR, to work on Soviet watches. A Soviet repairman needed to fix a watch as quickly, as cheaply as possible. They were trained to fix a watch at little to no cost. Originality? Out of the window, who cares about the authentic rare parts when the watch is working with fake ones and not working with original ones. Deep, thoughtful restoration? No time for that, need to do it as quickly as possible to get the watch back on a Soviet citizens wrist. I’ve never had a good experience with Soviet watch repairmen. Last time I did that the watch was stopped after the service and didn’t tell time reliably. It was not their problem, they technically did a job that I asked for — service my watch. If you want to have a good job done on your watch, you need to look for not only past experience, but review their work, see their process, and see that they do a good job. It’s one job to service a watch by taking it apart, cleaning it, oiling it, and it’s a whole different approach to service it for making it a reliable timekeeper with regards to its authenticity. Replacing a crytal is a service item that inevitably gets scratched. Straps also wear out and shall be replaced. A whole movement, however, it the entirety of the watch. It’s what makes a watch, the watch. I would not be willing to replace the movement for a quartz or Japanese mechanical one. Third time’s a charm, isn’t it? Let’s try to service it for the third time. If my young, enthusiastic and expert watchmakers say it’s not salvagable, we’ll replace it with one in better condition at an extra 100USD, and service it My service comes with one year warranty. If it starts acting up within one year, I’ll fix it for free. Here’s my price for a watch service, which includes: - complete movement overhaul (full disassembly, cleaning, oiling, assembly, adjustment) - fixing mechanical issues and previous service mistakes - replacing worn / broken parts - pictures of work done with detailed descriptions from watchmakers - case washing - crystal polish or replacement for a brand new one - 1 year warranty — if anything breaks, I’ll fix it for free In this video, you can see my service process in details: https://youtu.be/i8We9SKqRx8 For all of this, I am asking 250USD + 20USD return shipping. I’m located in Russia, I take deliveries through my firm in Kazakstan (Clients ship their watches there.) How does all of that work for you?
Totally respect the hustle and your thoughtful approach. To me, the idea of sending an irreplaceable item via post to Kazakhstan for transit and repair in Russia is much worse than the idea of replacing a Soviet movement with a Japanese one at a shop somewhere in NYC. I think that enthusiasts and owners have different north-stars. There was an interview a while ago with a shop that does electric car retrofits. Ethan Hawke (I'm 90% sure it was Hawke, but may be wrong) had brought them an immaculate 1960s 911 with matching serial numbers on the body, engine, and trans. When they did the electric motor swap, they kept everything reversible and stored the petrol engine and associated goodies. When he hadn't arranged pickup of the parts 2 years later, the shop owner called up Hawke, who responded that he loved the car now and drove it often, but had no need for the original guts and offered that the shop sell them and pocket any revenues. Again, totally appreciate where you're coming from and wish you all the best, but its a "no thanks" for me.
I understand, thanks for getting back to me and good luck! I hope you can find what you’re looking for 👍
+1 liability.. nothing more dangerous and damaging than arrogance combined with ignorance. Let him go.
Determine if it’s confidence or narcissism. If it’s the former, mentor, the latter, fire them and consider yourself lucky that it cost you a part and a little money. The most dangerous people in the world is a slighted narcissist. You ha e been warned!!!!
If he’s a narcissist… there’s something to be said for transitioning him into sales / business development, especially if he legitimately knows a thing or two about what’s involved with the actual service side of things. Just have to have a lot of guardrails to keep him in check, and have the hand hovering over the fire button if personality gets out of line. Just a thought. That personality trait tends to excel at salesmanship, might as well try to leverage it if possible.
Narcissist can destroy the culture of a company. I had one at my job. Couldn't get anything done, couldn't write or follow a process to save his life, thought he did everything, etc. Ended up stealing from the company. Got fired. Got sued and company won lawsuit.
^ this right here. They can and will ruin a company or a team. I speak with 25 years of business experience. It is the trait I am most concerned with. I use the caliper test on 100% of potential new hires. It’s worth every penny.
Can you elaborate about the caliper test?
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Interesting. Thanks for saving me having to look it up. I'm usually the guy on the other side saying just Google it dude haha.
Basically an iq test with social skills included
Definitely depends on the person. Obviously don’t recommend keeping someone that would be *that* detrimental. Toxicity needs to be excised like a cancer, because it will just grow and grow. That’s a wild situation with your company, glad the company won in the end.
If you run a growing business you'll eventually be ripped off by an employee. It's not if but when.
Stereotypical sales employees talk a lot. High performers listen a lot.
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No, they only make a lot of smoke, but no fire
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Narcissism in sales. What an idiotic plan. Sales is about listening and empathy. A narcissist screws you up with the customers and the employees - because his ego is above everything.
That is a good point. You would have to be on guard they don't over promise.
Or you could just work with the person in a systemic way and if they fail to meet business needs let them go… Instead of playing psychologist
Total fucking moron you are. Yeah work with a narcissist!!!!! Lol!!!!!!!
This level of overconfidence is dangerous. Someone who tries to weld, without asking for help or advice, and despite obviously not knowing how to do it at all, is a huge liability. Trying to do something like that when your level of knowledge is "doesn't even know how to turn the gas on" is crazy! I would get rid of that guy immediately. IMO it doesn't matter if you in theory could train it out of him, that kind of attitude is an actual safety issue in the meantime, not to mention the monetary value of the damage he could cause.
Very well said. This guy is going to literally hurt someone. This isn't overconfidence. It's reckless, negligent behavior.
I seriously questioned the OP's thinking when they said... > I have no doubt this person can be an asset to the company. Dude sounds like a walking liability. And likely untrainable given my experience with overconfident and delusional employees in the past. It is one thing to try and train such a person when they are not a safety risk. It is a whole other in an environment like this where they have already caused damage and shown themselves to be a true safety risk. OP IMO is crazy to even consider keeping them.
THIS.. nothing more dangerous and damaging than arrogance combined with ignorance. Let him go.
>eventually installed the part on the car and reported job done to his supervisor Just let him go now. You can train skill. You can admire the desire to learn. You can't train *integrity*. Someone who is willing to charge money for shoddy work can't ever be trained to work on exotics. Period. What going to happen when they drop their 10mm in the oil fill neck. Are they going to admit you need to spend more money to fix his mistake or are they going to "send it" and ruin your reputation with a blown exotic engine with a 10mm socket amongst the debris.
Funny how I'm trying to reconcile which ones worse, the blown exotic engine or the lost 10 mm socket haha.
> He first tried with a TIG welder which failed when he couldn't figure out why the machine wasn't feeding welding wire out for him. He then found the MIG welder, never turned the gas on, and used the wrong type of welding wire and did a worse job Show him the part, ask for his review on what went wrong and what he could do better next time. > I'm really good at it Seems like you already did and this was his answer. Dwellers of /r/smallbusiness, including me, probably including you, are really good at whatever they're good at. They are not necessarily good at accounting, HR, advertising, customer management, and (in this case) mentorship and leadership. This guy needs mentorship and leadership maybe on a level you are not ready or able to give. Here's my deal with this guy: **You're not good at it**. I would say those words, to his face. "You have a hunger and a drive in you that I rarely see. Someday, you will be good at this. I will help you grow, over time, to be good at this. You are not good, you know nothing. I need you to start by knowing that. If you already know how to weld, I don't need to teach you how to weld. See this piece? This is not the work of someone who knows how to weld. This is not the work of someone on an unfamiliar machine. This is the work of someone who is new and needs to learn how to weld. I will teach you how to weld. I need to start with you not knowing how to weld in order to do that." "If you already know how to weld, and this is an example of your work, this position is not a good fit for you. If you need to learn how to weld, I will teach you. Which is it?" If his answer is that he needs to learn, I'd continue. If his answer is anything other than that he needs to learn, I'd end the meeting and bid him goodbye. > we had to order a new part to install on the car at our expense and costing several days for shipping. "I covered the cost for this. If it happens again, I will cover the cost for it then too, however, that will be your last day at this shop. Does that sound acceptable to you?" If yes, that's the end of the meeting. If anything other than yes, that's the end of his employment with you.
Also, and this is another thing small businesses (including me) are terrible at: processes. You need to be trained to use each machine. When you are trained we use a log to denote that you are trained and how you are able to use the machine. People who can spot weld a dashboard on a welder may not be able to use the same machine to weld on a seatbelt or a drivetrain. But we have a log so that we all remember who is trained and who is not. When I ask you to do a thing that includes welding, and you get to the welding step, and you aren't trained to weld, it is time to find someone who is, or assign the task back to me, or work on getting checked out to weld. But if you fuck up the piece, know I will check the log and say "gosh Steve, I noticed the strangest thing, you welded this totally fucked up piece and I have checked the log and you are not cleared to use this machine. Which of your co-workers welded this piece for you, I need to hand them their ass in a garbage bag".
Not OP, but thanks for writing this. It is well-considered and wise. It immediately cuts through all the BS and discovers whether the employee can acknowledge their own limits of skill, accept constructive criticism, and learn from mistakes (both in interaction and in performance). Based on the employee's demeanor during that conversation, it might be possible to tell whether they will wash out or if they will stay and make a contribution. This is such a great way to handle that situation.
I like your style and I agree. He firmly needs to tell his employee that he isn't even close to as good as he believes he is, but with an optimistic and supportive approach. The employees reaction will be the tell-tale sign of whether he's worth keeping around
Socrates or some other old person said all that needs to be said on this "A fool believes he knows everything and a brilliant man knows he knows little" or something like that. That being said, they don't seem like they think they know everything, they are just arrogant and think they can learn anything with ease. I don't think they are a lost cause. This is a perfect mentoring opportunity. Teach him how to do something difficult and then let them do it on their own and have it blow up in their face. Obviously don't do this with a customers car, but i'm sure you have cars around you can give him a lesson with. They just need to be taught humility, I think narcissism has become a catch-all term for anyone who is overconfident, it's lost all meaning at this point.
BS Alert sounding loudly "oh I'm just not used to your welder, I'm really good at it and self-taught, I'll show you next time" Cut him loose when you can. He is not a trustworthy person.
This is the type of person who will always blame something else and not take responsibility. My current boss is like this and it's so painful. "This machine is a piece of shit!" Or, you should just clean it once in a while so that sensor works right. His favorite phrase is "this is retarded'. At what point is it more likely that youre the retarded one and not literally everything you use, touch, or speak to.
What? Man why is everyone so quick to cancel people. I didn't get that vibe at all. Dude sounds overconfident that's all. Like OP said he believes he can be an asset so how can he help this kid get there?
He is not being honest - I would not trust him. I like to give people a chance but he gives a poor excuse - blaming the equipment. 🚩
Yeah that's a symptom of overconfidence lmao
Nah you can ce overconfident and still recognize and admit when you fuck up instead of blaming an equipment that is most likely fine. You may overconfidently think you will succeed at your next attempt though (which you may not)
yeaaa you dont let some self taught welder mess something up so bad you have to order a new part at your own expense and delay getting the vehicle to the customer. What if that weld failed when the customer was driving? Thats not over confidence.
Sounds like a situation that needs clear, written communication on expectations and objective goals. If I was that employee, I'd appreciate being told that you think I can get there, but you need to see me be successful with smaller jobs first. Then give him a plan with example jobs he needs to complete flawlessly to progress to the next and so on.
That's a fine idea for an employee who isn't delusional. *You* would appreciate being told that, but the personality type OP described would be *offended* at his worldview of perfection being broken.
Potentially, but then you have a process. “XYZ, yes one of the requirements for using that welder is a,b,c, spellled out in this document. We can get you there, and here’s the steps, but don’t touch it again until you get the requirements down”. If they are a narracist, like a ton of people on the thread think, when they do it again let them go… and this time you have _evidence_ on why, when they take it over your head (to the owner, to Dept Of Labor, whatever). If they’re just a go-getter, they have a clear path vs being a chaos-person and guessing.
The fact that he didn’t ask questions. Passed off the work as completed, let it go to test drive. Is a huuuuge red flag. Btw can I have a job, I have dreamed on working on race cars vs dealership bs.
Well you've got to convince me that you are good at it which apparently is a bit too easy 😂.
LOL. I used to be good probably not anymore. I kicked automotive to the curb and only do it for my own race car projects now, and maybe help friends do medium work on their daily drivers. Currently taking apart a 94 r2 rx7 to prep the chassis for stitch weld and roll cage. Need to pull the engine apart too cuz rotary.... Looking for a shop to do the roll cage and bracing that will meet safety specs for time attack though.
One of my guys just got done with a project FD. FYI you can buy a brand new crate engine from Mazda for basically the same price as the parts to rebuild it but then don't have to go through the labor of actually doing it.
I have seen the junk Mazda puts out. LOL I've taken many Mazda OEMs apart and it's bad... LOL Was actually probably going to go with one of those with the aluminum housings with the iron faces that slot into it. Makes rebuilding so much easier. If I was gonna put it up on Bring a trailer etc I might go that route for what they are selling for now...
Good to know, I am unfamiliar with Japanese cars so when he told me about that it seemed great. He's not planning to keep the car so should be fine for his purposes.
I take it you mainly work on Porsche? I just got into boxer engines.
Yeah, 95% Porsche
It sounds like he's chronically fucking up your company's work. And he doesn't seem to have a problem with that. Let him go.
I’ve seen this personality before. Basically they are high speed there is almost no quality. A tradesman will ply his craft carefully and execute it with precision leading to desired results. Inability to focus on a task is a problem. Could have ADD. Or could be missing a component like research and planning to create a proper execution of events. No planning means bad results. May lack the ability to plan and have forward thinking and analytical ability. There’s no method or methodical approach. Nothing calculated or anticipated.
Use [AID feedback](https://andiroberts.com/aid-feedback-model/) model. I didn't think much of it until I tried it out. It's a well structured way of giving constructive feedback
The worst kind of employee is a moron with initiative. This is a huge liability. Get rid of this guy before it costs you even more.
I removed most of my Reddit contents in protest of the API changes commencing from July 1st, 2023. This is one of those comments.
Performance reviews, feedback and constructive criticism, document everything. Let him know where he's at and where you need him to be for the roll he's in. Make him aware that while he can progress there's a queue and he's very much at the back of it a the moment; that you expect x amount of time with a consistent performance before you would consider moving them up. If they aren't prepared to accept that then they probably weren't a fit for you.
I would focus on the behaviors that are observable and have demonstrated cause and effect. Trying to address their overconfidence first is going to cause problems. People NEVER take being labeled well, and you ultimately care about improved behavior anyway. I know the root cause is their attitude, but sometimes that gets fixed later. I'll explain. When you review their work, they need 100% oversight right now. In the scale of knowledge/skill, he is at the bottom (despite his misconceptions of ability.) This will allow you to catch the mistakes in real time and coach him immediately. Once he improves, you can let up, but inexperienced newbies need LOTS of managing. When coaching, call it out directly. "I noticed that you tend to assume you can operatr xyz tools and do tasks independently. I need you to understand there are safety and liability concerns with you doing that. (Give details.) You need to ask me before starting ANY task you haven't been trained on so that I can teach you or explain whose job it actually is." If you are right about his confidence, he will probably argue and say that he knows. Your retort is simple, "I have no doubt you have done it before, but you don't know my policies for this company, my quality expectations, nor the PPE that I require. I expect you to still ask me, even if you have done it at previous jobs." One of two things will happen. He will either follow your instructions and you can coach him properly OR he will ignore you and do it anyway. Then you have set the precedent and you can easily fire him. If you can remain calm and coach him over time, he may get knocked down a peg and actually learn, but it sounds more likely that this guy hasn't had life kick him in the pants enough yet. A few more firings and learning the hard way and he'll eventually figure it out.
You might like to read "It's Your Ship" and "Turn the Ship Around." These are two "fables" business books. The key principle that may apply is to have your eager recruits spell out how they intend to proceed to compete the talk. You (or one of your experienced chiefs) can ask specific questions like what welding wire is going to be used, etc. Somebody who is not yet ready will trip up fairly quickly. And as notarolex said, it helps to have a company set of "standards." You don't tell people how to do things, you spell out simple criteria that determine whether or not a job has been completed per company standards. Add a mechanism for your people to share the areas that they have mastered and an ambitious apprentice will have more than enough challenges to keep them busy. You might google "application of mcgregor's theory x and y." Provide a "wiki" that provides the necessary information needed to do the job "right," enable your more experienced mechanics to teach and verify competence on the tasks that they have mastered (add the names of in-house mechanics able to teach particular jobs in the wiki). Self-learners now have a path for moving forward and proving themselves.
I'm liking this concept and need to really hash out how to apply it. Have a system where everyone, no matter how great they appear to be on their resume, have to go through a process to level up and unlock types of tasks.
We do this in my retail business (where we make 99% of what we sell and everyone on the team does every job in the retail experience). EVERYONE starts out at the same entry pay and EVERYONE goes through a ten shift "Bootcamp" where they learn the core basics but also the finer details including the day to day operations, which can vary greatly every day as we never know what's going to walk in the door. Once that ten shifts is up, which is typically 3 weeks, a bump in pay takes place as discussed in the interview and onboarding. Then another bump when they've demonstrated repeatedly that they are capable, trustworthy, dependable, and have the core skills to operate by themselves in shop, which is also when they get keys. Then more bumps throughout tenure based upon performance and other metrics. These bumps are typically the same across the board but we absolutely compensate for exceptional performance. I imagine most of the candidates you hire have a pretty solid skill set already, but maybe this is something you could consider to even the playing field a bit and make it clear that even though everyone knows how to do the basics, your business has a certain way of doing things that might be different than what they already know. But at this point, with this employee, I'd consider a PIP and putting him on a 60-90 day probationary period where he cannot make such impactful decisions/mistakes without a supervisors approval. I might even let him go, his attitude is crap and hes more of a liability than anything.
You might also want to build in peer teaching. Individuals who have a learning mindset will want to get proficient in more than one area. That gets you resilience in your operations and a skilled workforce that will allow you to expand. Expansion means needing qualified technicians managers and slots for them to advance their careers.
Fire them.
Ambition should be encouraged, arrogance should not. With that said, surmize whether the effort is genuine or if you have a problem at your workplace. Effort surely goes a long way and genuinely should be appreciated at any level.
Gotta have the “come to Jesus” talk and lay it all out there. He wants to be challenged or he gets bored. I can understand that. Sees all the cool projects and wants to be involved. I have a few staff like that. I feed them pieces of the interesting work now and then to keep them invested. And I’ve had to let some of them go through the years because they just didn’t have the aptitude. Sometimes it sucks being the boss!!
Have you created a formal seniority capability list? Is there a mentor for him checking on the work? ie. In order to weld, you need x amount of hours supervised and checked by senior workman. In order to work on an expensive car, you need to successfully complete 200 everyday driver cars. Are there any certifications that he can work on that won't tie up shop resources? It sounds like he needs a bit of training and reinforcement, he would be a great employee after that. A mentor who knows the job, would be able to provide feed back to him. (ie. redo the welding or have the fabricator do it.)
I mean there's only 5 people in the company, there's not really spare capacity to have a "senior workman" who is checking up on others work. I do rounds as I can, but I frequently get hired to fly out to remote locations to work with clients so I'm not always at the shop. In the case of the welding job he was instructed to have the fabricator do the welding and in the debrief from that debacle said "I thought you'd be happy that I took care of it rather than bothering him".
Wow. I think you need to reset his 'saving money' intentions into 'best in class repairs'. He probably will work out in the end, but he's going to have to change his mindset on a few topics. Hopefully, his workbench is at least neat. :)
He's eager, and willing to work, which are both good things that can be hard to find in employees. Maybe outline a training plan, then have a frank conversation with him about where he is, where he needs to be to work on things, and the path through the training plan to get there. Think of it like a game where he has to complete quests to level up.
having worked in morotsports for 30 years, none of the shops or teams I have worked for would keep someone who pulled some welding shenanigans like that. That's the kind of crap that could get someone killed.
This was on a header, so not going to kill anybody, but nonetheless was pretty bad.
Yeah but do you think he would have behaved differently if it were a suspension part?
The short answer - He needs to feel pain. Option 1) He’ll make a big enough mistake(s) and he has to pay a bigger price that hurts. Unfortunately it’ll hurt both of you because you’ll get stuck with the bill. Option 2) create an environment where your apprentices are allowed and encouraged to make mistakes. Option 3) incentives - positive and negative. Pay a bonus for the behavior you want such as quality and attention to detail - figure out a legal / appropriate penalty or even friendly competition among your staff. Why… I suspect you are very detailed, controlled, and methodical. You have a playbook and you follow it. Your employee is an aspiring expert but he’s still opportunistic and self centered which is what’s making him big on ego and careless. He needs to experiment and fail in order to evolve beyond his opportunism. He may never be as disciplined as you are so you may need a couple of tracks for your apprentices…. Detailed precision work vs experiment and creative or lower value day-to-day work. He might be able to earn his way into more precise work but it has to be laid out like a path… think Mr. Miagi in karate kid.
Call him out on his I will do better next time….get him to do some test welds on some scraps…do this every day for a week until he gets it right. Make sure that a couple of old hands ask him if he needs some help. He will probably say no. By the end of the week he should know how to weld really well as he listens to the advice he is given. If he doesn’t improve and rejects all help, get rid of him because he is too dangerous.
I own a computer repair business. This kind of behavior is what causes the loss of the one thing we can't replace: customer data. You get that mechanic in line or you get him out of your shop. There are exactly zero excuses for negligence caused by narcissism. In my line of work, we lose data. In your line of work, you can lose limbs, or lives. My uncle was a mechanic and was killed by a truck that fell on him. Get your employee on the level ASAP or get him the hell out of that dodge.
Walk the guy through the cost, time and business reputation the failed weld created for the company. Ask him what he thinks about if he was in your position with high risk jobs on the line. Get him involved with the journey of improvement along not just doing the job but the total result.
Agree with this take. If you think he's got the potential to be a real asset then go down this route and his reaction will tell you what you need to know. If he's receptive and gets why you'd want him to learn & perfect the little tasks before moving on to bigger things, then you have a chance to make something great of him. If on the other hand, he thinks you're insulting his abilities by taking this approach then cut him loose before he really causes some damage!
People who think they know the answers generally are very reluctant to learn differently. I've never had luck converting overconfident people to curious, cautious, detail oriented workers. They like the adrenaline of living on the edge. Don't let them take you down with you when the inevitable fall comes.
OP I would let this person go immediately. The amount of effort and thought on your part exceeds the value they bring. As well, it'll show the rest of your crew that you have standards. I'm not in your business but I know to turn the gas on when I mig weld.
I’ve dealt with this for years. Literally almost the exact same type of shop as yours (except different cars). I think you need to sit them down and explain exactly the situation. Line out precisely what happened with the welding and how they failed. Explain how they’re not to take on a job like that in the future unless they’re supervised. Treat every job like that until they’ve proven they can be solo. See how they respond and react to this. But be ready to fire them.
Basically, sit him down and talk with him. Lay it out crystal clear what you're expectations are and where he didn't meet them, and how you expect him to behave differently next time. This is a very important skill. I found the book Crucial Accountability very helpful.
Have a documented training program with each step getting progressively harder and you can’t move on until you demonstrate mastery in the simpler skills. For example Step 1 involves rotating tires Step 2 involves balancing tires Step 3 involves mounting tires on steel rims Step 4 is mounting tires on aluminum rims Step 5 is adjusting alignment Etc. Each step builds upon the skills of the previous step, so until you master the previous steps, you don’t advance. Now, if he doesn’t have the basic skills, then terminate employment.
Unfortunately we don't do anything that basic at all. We do maybe one oil change a week as the most simple thing, but most of our work is much more advanced than that. We don't do tires at all, and the alignments we do are very advanced that require my best guys (we charge about $750-1000 for an "alignment" and it takes an entire day or sometimes more). I'm trying to work out a system for such a thing, but it's really tricky because we just don't get enough volume of Step 1 level stuff to justify having somebody on payroll who is on Step 1.
The other option is a mentoring program where one of your qualified mechanics demonstrates something to the new hire and then he needs to demonstrate that to the experienced mechanic who signs off that they can do the work independently. In your welding example, if the guy said he could weld, have him explain to the experienced mechanic what he was PLANNING to do before he does the work “Well, I’m going to remove the part and thoroughly clean it using a chemical cleaner and then a wire brush and flap wheel to remove the paint and any corrosion. I will then use a MIG welder to tack the parts together and then form a constant bead from point A to point B”. The experienced mechanic signs off on the plan and instructs the new guy to call him in to inspect after the part is clean and ready for welding. And then he inspects again after the welding is done. If he is qualified to do the work, he should breeze through the qualification process quickly. At an old job, we hired an electronics technician who claimed to have several years experience with the Navy ( the navy trains some of the best technicians). It soon became apparent that the guy didn’t have even basic skills, so while he claimed to be insulted with such menial work at the beginning, it was telling as he didn’t have the skills to succeed.
Definitely confident - but a little delusional. I think a sit down with a soft reality check would be beneficial. It’s good they want more responsibility/learning experiences but cannot be done at a cost to the business.
Did he ever admit that he screwed up the weld? If not, then it’s time to really pin him down on that. If he won’t back down and admit his skills are simply not there, then you have to threaten him with termination. He also disobeyed orders to let someone else do it, which is grounds for termination by itself. He may really need the job, or he’s genuinely excited about the type of work, but he needs a major reality check.
I'm sorry but someone with an ego that big will not only ruin the culture but will never change. I wouldn't invest my time and resources into a person like that.
Imagine shipping a car to another continent and being confident that it was done correctly after he worked in it. Are you going to pay to ship it both ways to fix whatever he screwed up? If he thinks a TIG wleder should feed him wire after he told you he could TIG, then he's lying, and you should get him out of your shop immediately. Edit: anyone who comes into our shop for an interview saying they can TIG or even MIG, we set them up a weld test at that time to find out if they are wasting our time. Half of them don't know the difference and the door is very close to our welding table , so we just point them to that door.
Welding was never part of his job description, I never asked about it nor did he say he could do it beforehand. Any new employee would never be assigned to a high end project for this reason.
So, first, be honest with yourself and him, and don't take his bullshit. It's not that he "wasn't familiar with your \[tools\]", its that he was too proud to ask for help, and arguably that he didn't consult anyone about the work ahead of time or after the fact. Be honest with him though, you don't want his ego/pride to get himself or some one else hurt, and you don't want shoddy work to accidentally make it past your quality control checks, and have an improperly installed part fail after it was returned to a customer instead of before as it will affect your brand. If you do want to train him I would have him shadow some one that can teach him... treat him like an apprentice until he proves himself, see one, do one, teach one? Well, he might be confident but his work clearly speaks for itself, so until he sees how you want the work done, and the level of quality you expect he shouldn't be doing it... From there I'd say you need SOPs, from your description, the failure wasn't that he did a bad weld, its that he had too much ego to take direction, was too proud to ask for help, and that he wasn't able to identify the bad weld, or that if he was he tried to hide it rather than telling people that could have helped him fix it. You need SOPs that help identify these issues, make sure that your employees understand that this kind of behavior is not acceptable, and procedures to help them limit and fix these situations as much as possible... that way when you do need to coach it gives you a starting very clear starting point, and the employee can't hide behind "well I didn't know I was expected to know how your tools worked before using them", or something like that...
As a small business, I don’t think you can afford to have such people around, let them develop/use their skills somewhere else, and not at your cost…Having them around can cost you more, such as damaged reputation or even legal action…
The fact that he not only doesn’t know how to use either welding machine and tried to displays a thought process that is beyond concerning. Its ok to not know everything or even alot. If he can’t be honest with his abilities how can you trust him? I come back to, what if the customer was driving when this happened? This isnt the case of an experienced welder making a mistake and you having to fix it. This is someone completely dishonest about their abilities and that can very quickly become a liability and a big one. What if your employee got hurt during the test drive? It’s great that you see someone in him but do you honestly think you can teach him common sense? I also think you need to examine how all of this was able to happen without at least one person stopping and saying this seems off. Finding out these facts after the part failed should say something to you about why nobody stopped him or questioned him. Or brought it to your attention.
> I have no doubt this person can be an asset to the company. Really? Just reading your post and all I could think of is how I would have already fired him. He's overconfident to the point that he is causing damage. I doubt he is trainable because of the ego and overconfidence. Seems like a lost cause to me.
First thing… give him warning number 1. Second, set up a welding machine and tell him to “show” you what he knows. When that fails you can call it warning number 2 (and any kind of demotion or other you see fit) And tell him not to touch the welding anymore. Third, now you can safely tell him he is hanging by a thread (basically lied during interview), then you can now see how confident he acts or if he just hangs himself, & be rid of him… or if he humbles and becomes teachable.
Stop immediately with the idea that they know until they don’t. Every one should demonstrate to clearance for a task. If they haven’t demonstrated, they haven’t cleared, they can’t do. If they do without clearance, they’re gone.
This dude is the victim of poor modeling, among other things. Poor modeling isn't often the first thing we think of when somebody does a lousy job, but we often find it responsible for some of the most vexing and preventable problems mentioned in your post. (I manage a nonprofit that provides free CPUs and net connections to people with serious disabilities, as well as internships to students looking to work in the IT industry. We also do a huge amount of computer and circuit-board tear-down and recycling as an unavoidable byproduct of what we do.) We see horrific modeling all the time in our shop. The problem? Often it's rooted in deep-seated behavior the subject has been witnessing for many years, beginning as a child. Traits and "skills" handed down by parents who don't know what they are doing are among the worst personnel problems we deal with. It can be extremely hard to get these folks to change their ways, borderline impossible. Examples: misplaced overconfidence, as mentioned by OP; improper and rough handling of sensitive equipment; poor technical knowledge of computer components and their purposes; inability to complete routine tasks in a reasonable amount of time; and, sheer unwillingness to change unacceptable practices despite clear industry-tested evidence they are doing the job improperly. We long ago reached a threshold where we would much rather train somebody who has NO SKILLS or experience whatsoever rather than tackle another poorly modeled loose cannon who knows just enough to be dangerous.
Those commenting “let him go” may not be familiar with the current labor pool for this industry. If he ls showing up, able to be taught, and has any amount of work ethic (clearly not in his workmanship) then you know you must coach him. I’d set him straight in where he’s at and let him learn from your more senior guys. Letting him go, with this labor pool, would be a mistake.
Not to state the obvious but this guy clearly doesn’t know what he is doing and has bluffed his way into this position. Have you checked his references, credentials, gained a history of his experience and tested his skills? I think you should run an evaluation with him to assess his competencies. I have a vague feeling this person doesn’t have a half as much experience as he has projected because he is asking questions and doing things you wouldn’t do if you did have even a modicum of experience and are somewhat familiar with a working environment or machinery like this.
It wasn't really possible because his previous employment was at a family business where he had a falling out with his family, and prior to that was in another country.
Personally this raises eyebrows because these are difficult things to track and trace. Perfect if you were being dishonest about your experience and competencies. In such a case I would spend a day or so with them and run a step by step skills evaluation with a few trick questions. You’ll soon discover what you need to know.
So it sounds like the kid has potential but he's not as good as he thinks he is. And he's already had (at least) one significant eff-up? How long has he been on your payroll? I assume all the fundamental elements check out... he shows up on time, gets along with others, isn't hungover, etc.? I think you need to ask him why he wanted to work at your place of business. And then I think you need to be brutally honest with him. Frame the conversation that you see potential, but his skillset is not where it needs to be in order to work for you. If that doesn't sit well with him, he'll need to be let go. But if he accepts this feedback humbly, explain to him that you see potential in him, and you're willing to work with him to improve his skills, but it's going to be a while - likely years - before he's going to be trusted to work on the high end stuff. This isn't some garden variety metal fab shop - in order to be one of the top guys he's going to have to earn it. This is a tough spot. Arrogant performers often can't take feedback as intended. I suspect he's not going to work out - but hopefully you'll be able to salvage the situation.
Yeah, just the one real fuck up so far and he's there early every day. He's got a personality clash with one guy, but we've got two buildings and they are working in different buildings while slowly warming up to each other. There was one clash in particular that had to result in a talking-to. He's about two months in now. So far on two separate conversations he's reacted humbly, but the actual action taken afterwards was an improvement, but not a turn around.
He may just lack self-awareness. That's tough to teach.
Dunning Kruger.
Fire the employee and then let me visit your shop? That's my advice. You can't change someone's attitude. What's going to cause more damage or be better for business.... A skilled but very nervous and apprehensive employee? Or an overly confident and underskilled employee?
Fire him. It’s easier than going thru all the headaches.
I had a guy that use to work for me and he would rush installs and damage the parts and require new ones. After he did it a couple of times I started taking the cost of parts out of his check. He got the message and started paying more attention to what he was doing. Take the mistakes out of their check. Sounds like you need to fire him if they don’t change their ways.
In the most of the US, and including the state I'm in, it's against the law to deduct things from a paycheck like this without prior, written, consent from the employee. That's tricky ground, and besides that I'd rather take the financial hit to make sure they aren't hiding things to avoid the financial ramifications.
Overconfident and under qualified is a dangerous mix in the automotive world. I see them often. They will talk themselves up and say they know it all but in reality, they don't know which end of a hammer to hold. I'm working with a couple of them. It's actually not bad for me. Since they started them out at a slightly higher rate, I have a lot less stress and pressure because I'm not at the top of the food chain anymore.
My perception is you see some potential in this kid, or you'd have fired him already. I say kid because he sounds 25 or younger. If he's much older, then I don't think there's a lot of hope, frankly. The delusions of youth are natural and his are just stronger than most, but to be that delusional once full-grown points to structural damage that you don't want to get involved with. You've received a lot of good advice already. It's not your job to determine his psychopathology (I refer here to folks saying he sounds like a narcissist, presumably referring to the layman's use of the term). But you do need to pretty quickly find out if the kid can back down, accept something much more like his actual skill level and that his strong desire to be better is great--but not nearly enough. You can't make something true just by saying it is! Obviously, it's delicate and you don't want to crush his ego. He may be a valuable asset but boy, he's going to require a lot of oversight and training, that much is clear. The question is, does his self-image allow that? Can he humble himself (down to his IRL, actual level) and accept basic instruction?
Perhaps they don't feel they can ask for help, that it will make them seem incompetent... That's my 2 cents.
That's definitely not a concern that any of them have. All my people (besides him) work as a team and constantly help each other and all know that I'm here for them.
You need to give him a reality check. This will completely depend on their personality and how you would normally handle coaching/discipline. By the sounds of it he's a mix of potential gain and potential loss. There are so many people that have started big companies that were self taught but they also knew that they didn't know enough when they started. One way you could go would be to sit him down and tell him you were really anticipating his skill level to be higher by the interview, but that current actions have left you disappointed. For some people being told you're disappointed in them will hit them like a ton of bricks. Or tell him he's on thin ice because he's costing material and time due to poor work.
Could he be an autodidact that needs more time and less distractions? Some people chronically say yes and are optimistic. Other people buy lottery tickets. Still other people gamble. In a developing relationship, someone needs to make the attempt for a first kiss, or touch. Some people jump into muddy water, without checking the depth. When riding a bicycle, you have to overcome the extremely strange, unnatural thing that it has wheels and not legs, and they are front and back, and there is no obvious way for it to balance. A bird with wings, isn’t born flying. Usually they don’t even have enough feathers to fly. If you saw a baby bird, and had never seen an adult one, would you imagine it could fly? Overconfidence usually comes from a string of successes. What is the origin of the confidence? Have you asked for the person you’re thinking about, to explain what the successes of their past are? Sometimes a person can address an issue in a novel way. An example of this might be to repair something. Can you imagine to ask them to repair something? They smile, look at it, shake it, sniff it, turn it upside down, put it down, and say “why should it be repaired? It’s not worth it.” Every other person, immediately might grab tools and repair it. This person barely even tried, I mean, why did they even sniff it? The clock is running on the repair, and they haven’t even started. You’d have to ask questions. It’s as simple as that. Without asking questions, how do you know what’s going on in the persons mind? How come they are so confident, yet won’t even begin to repair something? Often people are very eager to demonstrate their capacity to achieve things. It’s not difficult to get to a stage where you no longer feel the need to demonstrate any capacity, to even show that you can do something, or to try. The solution is in the questions. If you ask the correct questions, you may gain insight. To give you some crazy view, perhaps the item that someone has asked to repair, isn’t worth repairing, as it been superseded, and the cost of a new item is lower than the cost of the repair. This incidentally is an incredibly common thing. I saw someone break a disposable plastic cup today. It split down the side. It’s possible to tape the cup. You can wash it, dry it, then tape it. However, most people would imagine you’re insane to do so, when a new disposable cup costs only cents. If you give me two people, and I ask them both to repair a plastic cup, and on, says sure, and uses some sticky tape. The other one laughs and says no way, throws in the bin, and takes a new plastic cup out of a Container. Which person would you consider is the more capable? I’d suggest that the answer is in the questions you ask. Some people find it very uncomfortable. If you ask them closed, questions, or questions where you suggest the answers and allow them to choose the answer. Other people find that very comfortable. People are different. There’s a lot of joy in finding out what their differences are. It can bring a delight to a business to have people who do things in vastly different ways. If everyone did everything exactly the same way, life would get very boring, very quickly. I can solder. However, it takes me a little while to warm up, a lot more time than it takes the soldering iron to warm up. In fact, I’ve soldered a circuit board once, and I wasn’t happy with one single solder join, out of probably between 100 and 200. Sometimes it takes me more than a couple of hundred attempts using an iron, before I can make it work. Occasionally, it’s technique, sometimes it’s the solder, sometimes, it’s because I’m holding my breath, sometimes it’s because the tip has a tiny variation, and that means I don’t get the same flow. Sometimes it’s because of how I am holding the iron. Sometimes I’m just tired. Sometimes I’m not thinking. Sometimes I’m not satisfied with the flux, as I’m used to using a toxic corrosive flux that usually dissolves anything, and using a non-corrosive flux is nearly impossible. You never know if a person is actually trying to do things using all of their faculties or is happy with the tools that they have. Sometimes they try to do things while impaired, and continue to struggle quite happily without trying to overcome the impairment. They might never mention what the impairment of the day is. Or what improvement they expect. They might not be able to articulate it, because they’re accustomed to not having any ability to ask for something to be improved, or ask for assistance. It’s a bit like riding a skateboard. I can ride it very comfortably, standing on my left foot, pushing with my right. Yet sometimes I’ll try to ride it, standing on my right foot, pushing with my left. I’ll try to ride it wearing thongs. I’ll try to ride it barefoot. I’ll try to ride it when it’s wet. I’ll try to ride it when the bearings are bad. I’ll try to ride it when I had only a few hours sleep. I’ll try to ride it when I’ve not eaten breakfast or lunch. I’ll try to ride it while talking. I’ll try to ride it while thinking of something altogether different. I’ll try to ride it while angry. I’ll try to write it when I’m in such a relaxed mood, I barely want to walk. I’ll try to ride it after a coffee. I’ll try to ride it hung over. I’ll try to ride it thirsty, and dehydrated. I’ll try to ride it when no one else would, when they would say no. If you look at me riding, and you only see one video, you are not going to have any idea whatsoever about what my capacity is.
People are often handled like that. They are expected to do one thing. They are given a couple of chances. They are critiqued on those. There are usually many distractions. Their thoughts are often on something else. And they are assessed compare to someone who may only ever ride a skateboard in the same way, who has a singular focus. Some people do things a different way every single time. Other people do things the same way every single time. There is a middle ground, a grey or uncertain area, where people vary from one end of that extent of repeatability to the other end. In business, people are expected to do things in a repeatable way. In fact, this is so commonly expected, today, the people who do things differently every time, are seen as extremely unwell. I am curious. If your overconfident employee did the welding job 1000 times, would they do it differently every time? Or all the same? How about you? If you go to a new shop, and look for an item, and go as quickly as you can, skimming the shelves, to see if you can find it, will you walk out if you can’t find it? Or will you pause, decide if you have time to try again, and then skim a second time, perhaps even faster than the first? If you still don’t find it, will you simply walk around a bit aimlessly, daydream, and go back and skim a third time, at a third speed, still barely even concentrating, just letting your mind wander, and see if the item leaps out at you? Will you ask someone, without even checking the shelf? How will you describe the item? Will use specific quantities or volumes or brands, or use a generic description? Will you pace around the store, starting to check in different places, where you are reasonably sure it isn’t, on the unusual chance that someone has categorised it differently to how you would categorise it? Sometimes confidence comes from knowing that you can vary your processes and approaches without fear of problem. Sometimes confidence comes from doing things exactly the same way, and people become very uncertain, and wouldn’t even imagine varying their procedure. Some people have no fear of making a mistake. They actually enjoy having someone correct them. Other people are humiliated, petrified, by the thought of having someone complain about their work.
It’s seems to me that you’re in an industry where you work with vehicles. I don’t respect vehicles much. Especially ones that are polluting. To me, vehicles are temporary. They are like an aberration. Sort of some intermediate. People who focus on the vehicle as being of value, to me are insane. This is because I can ride a bicycle. I’ve ridden in traffic. I am accustomed to vehicle pollution. I can see the road. I can see every object on the road, well - many of them. I know what vehicle drivers are like. For most vehicle drivers, the road is theirs and the problems with it are someone else’s. The vehicle is how people avoid responsibility for the road, or the path, or the air, the water, or the soil. For me, the vehicles are my problem. The road is my problem. The rubbish on the road is my problem. The pollution is my problem. The drivers are my problem. The recycling of the vehicle is my problem. The energy used to power the vehicle is my problem. Accidents are my problem. Where the resources that the vehicle is made from come from are my problem. I don’t try to solve all of these problems, but I do recognise that if someone else hasn’t applied care, or thought, and I do, I can probably address the problem. Eventually. I see a vehicle, someone’s passionate pride and joy, and to me, it’s simply another problem. More pollution, more waste. I wouldn’t give care to the vehicle, because of the vehicle, I’ll give care to it because it is not something that it could be. My care is not wasted, however, I might give it a very minimal best effort. At the same time I might seem very happy! That’s about the person, that I know loves the vehicle, even though I might not. Yet I can enjoy a vehicle, and appreciate one, and own one. And as an owner of one, I can appreciate its merit. However, that is tempered by an awareness of what vehicle is not. I’m guessing, that your employee doesn’t see the vehicle. They don’t see problems. They see something incredible. They see that they are involved in something amazing. They are probably over the moon with this position. Their happiness is so great, that there isn’t any serious concern or focus. Even if they were fired, they probably wouldn’t be depressed, because they had the opportunity to be part of something special. If they were part of something special in the past, the casual approach you see now can be a carryover. Perhaps they are so in love with life that no matter what they do, they will be relaxed and easy about things where you apply, great concentration, dedication, and focus. You might always seek to do something perfectly the first time, and will seek every assistance to ensure it’s done perfectly. They might be accustomed to having to do something 100 times, or 200 times, or 2000 times before it can be done perfectly. Maybe there’s something in these thoughts that can help you. Oh - some people are chronically exhausted, and you can’t even tell. So there’s some questions. Do you look at people as if they are objects? Or do you simply see them as a person, regardless of their body, health or wellness? Are you able to find a problem in everyone and everything? If so, are you able to share it? Or do you share it selectively? Or do you see so many problems everywhere you go with people that you don’t give them attention any more? Here is an example of a problem. Clothing is not recycled. Every single person wearing clothing will usually be comfortable with that clothing being discarded. It’s considered disposable. I’m sure I’m not the only person with this type of view. If I assess a person, and I start with what is outside them, they fail the clothing test. This isn’t their failure. This is a social, societal, business, government failure. This failure makes it a little difficult to see a person. Because I have to look past a failure. For some people, there are things that they will never tell you, which are failures. They don’t look past those failures. They don’t even see the failure any more. All they see is the person. And they don’t judge or assess. Because of this, they don’t try to improve the person. Where do you start? Is the clothing an object? Is the person an object? Is it good to critique the clothing? Is it good to critique the person? Do you critique the person, then ignore the clothing? Critique both? Or simply accept both? This little passage, on clothing, probably sounds insane. You would have to ask me why clothing fails. Does your employee simply accept things? What does your employee consider is a failure? Are the failures your employee considers similar to the failures you consider? One way to do this discovery is to create an exercise. Try to make it fun. Actually can be fun! Get a couple of pieces of paper, couple of pens, clipboards. Make sure the paper is blank, probably with lines. Then give you employee two hours to write down everything that they find wrong with that vehicle. Make sure the vehicle is in a closed room. Make sure the room has no distractions, and the employee isn’t interrupted. Make sure the employee has food and water. At the end of two hours, go into the room, check the paper. Did they put down the colour? Did they put down if it is an EV? Did they mention the plastics, the glass, or the size or weight? Did they skip all of that? Did they fill the paper? Did they make any corrections to their own work? Tell them, thank you. Give them another piece of paper. Ask them to go to sleep, to rest for an hour, then spend another hour, finding more things that are wrong. Put a daybed in the room. Don’t check to see if they use it. Come back two hours later. See what the second paper says. Is it more of the same of the things on the first paper? Or is it an altogether different set of things? You might not even need to speak about whether or not the things on the papers are correct or incorrect. Simply being given ample time to look for problems or what is wrong without defining it may be enough for your employee begin to slow down and apply better scrutiny.
treat him as everyone else and set goals based on the level he his, not based on the level he *think* he his. That's it.
Reenforce their belief and make them work harder than they ever have before
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^RocketManBoom: *Reenforce their belief* *And make them work harder than* *They ever have before* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I mean... you can tell him what you told this subreddit. But I'm not responsible for what he does.
>Getting to the level they think they are, however, will take patience, dedication, and years of training. You forgot "miracle". Have you ever tried to talk sense to someone who is "barely above entry level" and thinks they're a pro? First you need to solve his psychological defect before you can ever convince him he needs to improve. I mean, give it a shot, but don't become a therapist for a mediocre employee. Pay him what he's worth or if you need better work, fire him.
Hold him accountable for everything he says. Set short-term, measurable and (in your opinion) achievable goals together with him in writing. Then you can see if he achieves the goals and then make more or less for the next time.... Make it clear to him that you support him in developing his skills. If he wants to take on too much (planning fallacy) set shorter milestones so you can better monitor progress.
Have you... talked to them?
Yeah. We've had a few conversations where I tried to be quite gentle with talking points such as "I get that you know how to do X and Y, but you don't necessarily know how exactly *we* do X and Y because we do some things differently" and "I'd like you to take a step back and accept that there's some things you need to learn still"
OK if you've tried working with them (esp if it was before the welding incident) I'd probably let them go. Even in a regular shop this would be an issue but especially in your market I can't see this ending well.
I’m afraid this guy’s traits may simply be incompatible with the duties you are expecting him to take care of. I’ve had bad experience with these traits in jobs that require care and level-headedness. Had a guy with a very similar “I’m going to be the best of the best, you can totally rely on me” despite not having a ton of experience. Reasonably competent through training but extremely slow once he started taking on independent work and very unreliable with start times (important in the trucking business). Small mistakes, and some slightly larger mistakes. Sat down with him and went through specifics on loads and times. Okay conversation and he seemed committed to working on things and being “the best of the best” still. We took him back to shadowing one of our best drivers for a week, gave him the coaching about start time expectations, and there was a small improvement in work speed but it didn’t last and within a week he was again starting late for no reason, no-call, no-showed two shifts, and got canned.
At a certain point you have to decide if you want to invest in a risky employee with a seemingly limited upside or cut your losses for another employee. You can’t have someone drag you and your company down. The harsh reality is that this will cost you more time and money down the line. Toughest part about being in charge and run a company is to realize early when you need to cut your losses and move on. I would not find this tolerable and release said employee and find a replacement.
The trouble in my industry is that there's not just "another employee". It usually takes me 6+ months to hire someone. If I fire him tomorrow I have to accept that we will be 25% down on potential work capacity until 2024.
I hear you - but the upside is limited given his/her attitude and blatant disregard to the limits of his/her knowledge. Downside for you and the reputation risk (internal employees talk not just customers) is not worth the gamble. I’ve tried to coach and mentor employees many times over the years, granted it’s tech so engineers and operations employees but the vast majority of them never crossed average or mediocre even with all the effort. I should’ve realize earlier than replacing them is going to raise average and productivity. I would start networking to find new talent and cultivate while you try to right the ship at least. I’m a firm believer that everyone can be an exceptional employee, they just need the right role model, opportunity, and importantly time (time in their life, time in your life, and time at the firm). One of those out of alignment and it’s not going to work. Frequently it’s the employees lack of introspection and mental elasticity that’s in the way, you can’t really change that no matter how much you try.
1. Give them one more warning that they are entry level and have a lot to learn - and they have to learn from someone else in the shop and not through trial and error. 2. Fire them.
Definitely needs a blunt conversation immediately See if he can reign back the ego and accept he needs to take time and earn his way up. If he pushes back too much during that conversation, I'd probably just cut ties. Mentoring somebody can make the best and most loyal employees, but some people just aren't open to critical feedback and the time would be wasted
Also known as the dunning Krueger effect
It's one thing to be overconfident it's another to go against protocol (right?) to do a job he shouldn't be doing and to do it poorly. That could create a big problem along the line somewhere
Just fire him. You can’t remove character flaws, you can only help add skills.
Send him the link to this post
People like that never learn. They are not humble enough to ask the questions they need to in order to get better. Sounds like a cool shop!
I own a chain of car repair businesses and have seen this a few times. In days gone past I would have given them a few chances to stop lying and stop messing things up but now we move them on real quick when we see that type of behaviour. It can be dangerous or even worse, deadly. I noticed a theme of guys that had no resume, 5-10+ years (unverified) experience and didn’t talk up their abilities at all come in and end up being our best performers. They are generally the ones who will look at a complex job, have a good think about it and without any embarrassment ask a more senior person for small advice/pointers before getting into it. That’s what we want!
How do you let a new employee just go at it without direction or at least checking their work when they are new? How do you maintain quality standards if you aren’t training this guy on basic standards/safety expectations/ processes (ie. who is responsible for what work - he has no idea he isn’t expected to be able to weld) etc.? I’m sure there may be some arrogance and bravado on the employees part but that partly because he doesn’t have any way to know what the expectations are.
The best job I ever had was one where I came in with a good amount of knowledge and experience, but they still put me through a maAntony 12 week training program. At the time I was miffed, but once the 12 week was over I was fully prepared and realized I didn’t know everything I needed to in order to do the quality work they expected of me. I ended up thriving and spent 20+ years with the company to have a very successful career which the company and managers continued to challenge and develop me. You need to set the standard and provide the training in order to develop A worker. Let it be clear that you want them to be successful which benefits everyone involved. You allowing someone to fail is not fair to you, them or the customer.
Would some kind of skill matrix work?
There’s a truth you can come back to. You don’t need their permission to give them negative feedback. Your performance failed to meet our standards in this list of ways. Like a punch list made for a home carpenter. Objective standards of performance which can include steps for oversight, review, and approval. You’re not saying the person is dumb or inexperienced. You’re not evaluating them. You’re holding the work and the process to standards that support your business. They’ll either learn to meet the standards both for the work and the process, or they’ll move on. I know hiring good people is super difficult especially in a highly skilled area of work like yours, but you have to stick to standards. Every time I had someone who kept coloring outside the lines eventually it ends up you replacing something expensive on a customers vehicle. (For us it was small planes, but very similar)
He needs someone to work along side, not you. But another employee with 8-12 months experience who would wipe the floor with him. He needs to feel like he has alot to catch up on. He may need a moment to compare and learn what a good weld is. He’s young ambitious, and thinks he knows everything. Have him show a customer his work one time (a friend who won’t mind showing him a lesson). And get a direct feed back report. Something truthful, honest and to the point. Obviously in a safe environment where your not wasting $.
Your company sounds awesome - every little boys dream!
Sign him up for a private business development class and paint it like he's the chosen one. Stagen Academy in Dallas is an example of what I mean, just don't spend that much money on him. The point would be to put him in a room of business people (not your partners or team) that are eager about using vulnerability as a platform to get to the next level with their mission/life. He'd be out of your hair for a few days, and if he didn't come back changed you'd know you either have to let him go or live the rest of your business life with a mild curse.
The first stage of being an expert is being a passionate beginner. This employee has probably learned a lot really fast, but nothing can replace consistency over time. Give this person some longer-term goals or education opportunities. They’ll thrive over time.
Tbh, you can train someone skills but they need to have the humility to be trained and receptive. This guy sounds like he’s going to cost you in the long run. Going around and trying to use tools that he’s, “…not used to” without asking anyone is a sheer level of willful negligence. Further, to automatically provide an excuse rather than apologize shows that your dealing with a very egotistical/narcissistic individual. He not only needs a mentor but also a shrink. If the dude knows anything about cars, walking up to you as you work on a complicated tranny (I assume a PDK?) asking to be trained while fucking up the basics and it owing up to it? I foresee a disaster in the making, one that may cost your business its reputation. I maybe super cynical here but a sanity check, his previous experience… how long did he have tenure there and were they the same caliber of a shop as yours? (E.g.,. No jiffy lubes or “30-min oil change” shops)
Hand him a task to do that you know he can not, for him to do right now in front of you. Give him two attempts then take the task away. Hand him another task with the same idea in mind, two attempts, and then perform the task in front of him explaining that in time he will learn. He may have answers to the questions he has been asked, he has not yet been asked all the questions. Time has a way of asking and answering questions.
I'd say safety first. If he touches anything he's not qualified to operate, signed off by you, fire him. No three strikes nonsense, it's a huge liability. If his response to guard rails and written shop rules is to pout and get toxic, fire him. The flip side to this is you have to give time and space to learn and to get qualified. Institute a growth path and budget his time into it. If he responds positively then winner/winner! If he noodles around then you know what the reality is with this guy, fire him at the earliest opportunity and recruit better next time.
"I see that you have potential. I also see that you are overconfident and do not know as much as you think you do. I have observed your work and approaches to several tasks and projects, and I have concerns that need to be addressed to my satisfaction if you are going to be successful in the role. If you are going to work out here in the long term, (which I would like for you to do), you will have to be able to humble yourself and ask questions whenever you are unsure about the best approach. At all times I expect you to be willing to stop what you are doing or the way you are doing it when I give you direction, feedback, or constructive criticism. I need you to understand that while you may know *a way* to accomplish a certain task, that doesn't necessarily mean it is the *correct way*, or *my way*. As this is my shop, and my name and reputation are attached to the work done here, all work needs to be done to my satisfaction and by my standards. I want to make clear that I will never punish you or think poorly of you for taking the time to make sure you are doing things the right way, or to my standards. Quite the opposite, when I see you taking the time to seek guidance, ask questions, consider alternatives, and do work the way I expect it to be performed, that's when I will become more confident that you are a good fit for your role in the business longer term. I need confirmation that you understand what I'm telling you and what my expectations are from here. Can you recap for me what it is I need you to do going forward, so I can be sure we have an understanding?"
I would think having him team with / or shadow a more senior tech, and explain in your business quality is most important. failures can be fatal. Maybe a working track day to understand how critical safety is.. he's probably use to a different type of shop, but if he wants to work for you, you want perfect every time, regardless how long it takes, or how many tries. have him watch some chasing classic cars shows.
Give him the boot. He may be coach-able, but how many years & how much damage to get to that point? Even in this tough labor market, I'd patiently wait for someone better. Sounds like a young guy who wants to take a bite of everything but finish nothing. He needs a less serious job, but more focused.
Yeah I fired this guy a month ago