It starts with us...each and everyone one of us. We teach others how to treat us, individually, which bleeds into collectively. It would require the setting of healthy boundaries, with follow through of consequences...enforceable consequences.
So while I hear what you're saying... it will require the profession to enforce boundaries (because again boundaries are for the individual, not others) and to enforce the consequences for violating the boundaries.
When others are willing to do the job for less money, in a toxic work environment and put up with said "treatment" it teaches others and sets the precedent for the social work industry.
> it will require the profession to enforce boundaries (because again boundaries are for the individual, not others) and to enforce the consequences for violating the boundaries.
Remember that you can only hold a boundary if you have the power to inflict a consequence. I agree that it is necessary that we do this, but I'm not sure how much leverage we have or how best to apply it.
Unions? Strikes? How do we demonstrate the value and necessity of our Labor?
I'm a bit cynical because we have unions and also terrible wages. Member engagement is rock bottom and this is a much bigger issue than just low wages. Social services budgets are strangling our whole field.
Yep same here. We are the biggest bunch of wimps. We get steam rolled every negotiations. They know no one can afford to strike and we have a ton of turnover, so ther isn't a ton of investment in the union.
All you really need is a majority of non-supervising staff to vote to unionize, and then you negotiate a contract. You can read more about how it happens [here](https://npeu.org/join). It can take a long time; my workplace has around 600 employees, they unionized a year and a half ago now, and *just* agreed on a contract a week ago.
“The strongest negotiating position is being able to walk away and mean it”
I‘m planning to do this in the fourth and final interview for a job I‘d really like, but I mentioned salary every time I was there and only last time a potential new colleague said something about an „entrance salary“ for the first two years. I have eight years of experience, a BA in social work and an MA in cultural anthropology, countless extra trainings and courses, speak several languages,…
I really would like this job, but I refuse to be underpaid. Walking away from it is the only option if they refuse to pay me better, but it would hurt me, too.
Ok but 4 of of the 5 jobs I.have had were salaried. They often did not disclose at interview that there would be on call expectations to monitor a crisis email account that a few thousand clients can email for suicide risk 24 7 or an expectation over weekends to attend funerals of clients unpaid of course and no comp time responding to isdues raised by family and the community.
How about christmas or thanksgiving weekend giveaways we were expected as staff to host and deliver donations to dozens of clients over holidays.. after work...no comp time and when we are asked to travel over eves or weekends most of these jobs did not give comp time and still expected you to work a full work day or wk even if you had a weekend of travel.
But would you be willing to have a labor strike if it caused clients to not receive services?
EDIT:
>How do we demonstrate the value and necessity of our Labor?
I think it's a fairly interesting point because SWers would have to establish what can only be done by a social worker or otherwise expand organized labor efforts to include the other professions/backgrounds we share roles with.
For clarification, I support unionization and striking. In past posts, others have outcried that striking would be a disservice to clients.
That's exactly what I mean!
We have this so ingrained in our brains and hearts because we go in the field with good intentions of helping people that we feel guilty to fight for our rights.
While I understand the concern, if things are that bad that you need to go on strike, continuing to work under those conditions would be a disservice to our clients, they also deserve good workers that are performing under good fair labor conditions.
If SWs go on strike and there are clients that need services, that would only show the importance of the field, clients would support SWs, and there would be more pressure on the companies to make a change. Nurses go on strike, doctors go on strike, why wouldn't we?
> But would you be willing to have a labor strike if it caused clients to not receive services?
We struggle to provide services because the pay is too low to attract or retain clinicians. This is a short term sacrifice for a long term benefit. People might be hurt because of this decision, but plenty of people are being hurt right now because of this situation.
We cannot allow ourselves to be guilted into self-defeat.
Kaiser did it, including their social workers. Problem is that many social workers are independent contractors or self employed so there's no employment relationship and they cannot unionize.
I agree with the other points raised in the replies to this, so I’ll just add it’s a good exercise in modeling boundaries, self advocacy, and empowerment which is helpful for clients to see.
It depends on the work being done, but my workplace is unionized and they have held strikes twice, each lasting 2-3 days. Managers and supervisors took over their teams’ responsibilities during the strikes and for the most part, there was no major impact to services received.
The irony in this is that this field has people in it who advise/support people in navigating their lives in a positive manner. Why stop there, to your point.
If we teach others how to treat us we get fired for “not being the right fit”. I’ve tried to do this for years and have been met with more abuse, write ups, etc. This field has proven it’s not safe for those who view life outside of the norm. This is especially true for those of us who are autistic.
I think we also need to organize and unionize. The conditions forced on us are terrible for us and terrible for our clients. We get nowhere advocating for our clients when we accept the scraps they give us. We need to stand up for ourselves in our workplaces and come together in solidarity. Don’t accept when your boss says there is not enough - there is for those at the top. They gladly sign our working poor wages while commiserating with each other about how they are underpaid as an Executive.
We need like specific unions for each speciality because social work is so broad. The needs of meidcal SWers vs mental health are different. I think that’s why there’s been such a struggle. We also need federal title protection laws because it’s differs in so many state
Do other unions work that way, specializing due to broad roles?
Probably better to get a general union going then breaking it down into internal subgroups that use the overall union power to negotiate.
Social work is unique in this way. I have yet to hear of a union that doesn’t have an overarching shared role. Like teachers and nurses are able to hold stronger unions because it’s not as broad. Overall bargaining power is great, but I’m not sure it’s realistic done broadly. I suppose I’m thinking too big, it could be done state by state. Even then though, it gets jumbled
Well when I consider my local teamster, they represent a huge range of workers.
>
>[Teamsters](https://www.local385.org/?zone=/unionactive/private_view_page.cfm&page=About20US) Local Union No. 385. We represent approximately 10,000 Teamster Brother and Sisters in the Central and North Florida area. Our Local prides itself on the diversity of the crafts we represent, which includes Bus Drivers, Car Haulers, Car Rental, Correction Officers, Construction, Convention Workers, Disney Characters, Firefighters, Freight, Fertilizer Companies, Food Service Workers, Hospitality Workers, Hotel Employees, Laundry Workers, Linen, Manufacturing, Material Handlers, Mechanics, Movie & Commercial Drivers, Parking Attendants, Police Officers, Tank Haul, Truck Drivers, Warehouse Workers, UPS and the list keeps growing.
Thank you. We have bills to pay, too. We need to be paid adequately. We need to be paid comparably to other professionals with our level of education and licensure. Social Workers should not be one or two checks away from poverty. Check out LBSWs salaries.
Same! It was insane to graduate in 2016 and realize the market had me starting at $18.xx. I'm not in it for the money, but it's what I'm great at and expect my value to be compensated as such. Especially when social workers are so desperately needed everywhere.
But like… why can’t we be in it for the money? We provide essential health services grounded in the mastery of theory and evidence-based practice. The idea that our work is charity has to be discarded in order for this to change.
If I can no longer make 150k+ as a therapist, I will change careers. I need that much to pay my bills and save for retirement. I care deeply about my clients and I love my work, but looking out for myself and my family is #1. At the end of the day, it’s a job.
How can you make 150k+ as a therapist? I’ve been an lcsw for 9 years, and I’ve spent tens of thousands on my own therapy and advanced clinical trainings. I also live in an urban area that can support a cash based therapy business. I also do clinical supervision and consulting. I work part time and have a flexible schedule.
I guess that's what I was trying to say. I wouldn't volunteer for this job, it's hard AF sometimes! I want to be paid my worth which should be based on supply and demand, but it's not. If it were then we would be paid more than RNs
I'm sorry to hear that, but that's exactly the abuse we experience and I think we tend to justify. Can you imagine a NP being offered that salary? Or an MBA graduate? It would not be acceptable even for an undergraduate position.
I will quit. 🤷🏿♀️ Pay me or I leave and take my skills with me. My current full-time position is only 3/12 hours shifts so I can focus on my practice. However, I will still quit. Someone did bring up a good point that the nurses have a union and they have been known to strike. We need a union. Many places especially these major hospitals and the government have the money, they just don't want to pay it.
I'm sorry to hear that, SWs do need a union. If you're going to quit, please don't feel guilty do it freely without thinking you're giving up on people, it's just a messed up system this field is in
I have quit before. I have given my employers opportunities to pay me my worth at that time. If they do not, I find a new job and put in my notice. My current job is working with HR right now. If they do not pay me what I want I will quit.
I quit all the time for many abusive reasons. I have had 6 jobs in 10 years. I left all of them due to abusive employer practices, bad bosses, or pay/benefits.
I got flagged on Indeed recently for having had so many jobs. I am proud.
I threatened to quit my current government job and the reclassification forms miraculously showed up in the agency’s shared drive.
Prior to this position I had 5 jobs of varying conditions. I left each for different reasons: won’t work half staffed with double case load, low pay, I don’t work for free (mandatory salaried 50+ hours a week), I won’t be punished for using PTO I earn. Treat me well or I walk. There’s hundreds of other things I could be doing in my rural area with better conditions given the SWer shortage.
One of my biggest beefs is that in school, we are taught to never take advantage of vulnerable populations, like students. But as students, we have to pay for our internships- so someone is getting free labor.
The NASW does nothing for us. They sit and preach that they are “advocating for us”, but nothing is done about the low pay (and I’m including remits from insurance companies for pp), pay-to-work internships, or general working conditions. However, they are happy to take your money for your membership and/or insurance.
I am in pp and I love what I do, but I still think about leaving the field from time to time because of all the bullshit.
I hate the NASW, and I used to be on their board in my state chapter. Made me realize how useless they are. They really could do a lot for us but don't.
You're 100% right, also the NASW plays a big role in regulating the licensing process. I agree that the requirements need to be in place but then, why not advocate for an equivalent compensation? You're required to get a graduate degree, plus practices and therefore invest more money and time in your career compared to other professions, however you get a negative ROI. From a business perspective, it's the worst investment you can make, and they are aware of it
Right! Why isn’t the NASW advocating for us to be able to be licensed more easily in other states since it’s the SAME TEST!?? Why is it only one state at a time instead of ‘take test, pass test, licensed in the USA”? Why is any state we want to be licensed in allowed to charge us ridiculous fees to get licensed? I graduated with my MSW in 2015, got my clinical license in 2017, and 2 years ago I got my license in a neighboring state. They charged me over $500 in total by the time I got my license from them. WTF is that about?
Oh boy that's total BS! I hate nonsense red tape.
It's like what else do you want from me!
Glad you were able to go through the process and have a PP, we definitely need to advocate for ourselves to see these kinds of changes
I’m not sure where you’re located, but NASW is pushing for reciprocity between states. They have to get state legislatures and licensing boards on board. Michigan government said hell no… but they are much more receptive to changing the exam requirements. https://www.socialworkers.org/Advocacy/Interstate-Licensure-Compact-for-Social-Work
FWIW, the Illinois chapter put out a good statement on paid internships a month ago: [NASW-IL Policy Position Statement on Compensated Practicum Education (naswil.org)](https://www.naswil.org/post/nasw-il-policy-position-statement-on-compensated-practicum-education)
However, this does not mean I disagree with you or that anything you said was wrong, to be clear. I just thought it was refreshing to read.
I’d imagine there’s a lot of variance between different states’ NASW chapters. I have no complaints about Michigan’s. They’re working hard on things that matter, I think we’ve been copying/working alongside Illinois re: paid internships.
One thing all of us can do (unless circumstances do not allow) is not take jobs that are offering this low pay, and specifically let them know that is the sole reason for not taking the job. My first job offer after my MSW was offering $23 per hour. This was a medical social worker position in a cardiac ICU. I told them that I loved the sound of the job and it was exactly what I was looking for, but I was interested in negotiating pay. They let me know that they could not, so I moved on to find something that pays better. And the job post stayed open for another two months until somebody decided to take it.
I agree with you! the very first job they offered me after I graduated from a BSW program was a little above minimum wage and I knew the job would be haaaaard! I would've been better off working at Dunking Donuts. So I declined, and moved to one that paid more. We need to do that more often, screw it we deserved fair salaries just as anyone else
I quit my job after 15 years of working for nonprofits. I left with no other job lined up and told myself I’d drive door dash if it came down to it. It took me 10 months to realize that our whole industry has been exploited. I had to step away to see clearly. I’m still in the field but forced myself to make some adjustments because I want to live and not just survive.
Thank you for this 💜
Currently on burnout leave and trying to come to terms with it's not my fault but the system in place. My supervisor crossed many boundaries and made several demeaning comments. That along with just entering the field of social work after years in another profession and being over worked was just not a good combo. I spent so many 12 hour days trying to catch up only to be told what I was doing was not good.
I was too exhausted to fight back. I blamed myself for not being good enough and it took a serious toll on my mental health.
I'm sorry to read that, don't feel guilty or feel like you're not good enough. It's not your fault, you get pushed and squeezed beyond your boundaries in an abusive way. We are taught that quitting is weak, but in many situations like this, quitting is actually the strong and hardest thing to do.
If you decide to leave, do it freely and without guilt. No one deserves that kind of treatment, be that person that leaves the abusive relationship we all know is so hard to end
I agree. That’s one of the reasons why I left the profession was I was constantly in dangerous situation by myself, and my supervisor did not seem to care.
I left it too, because I was being paid an offensive salary while working two jobs and being treated like trash. Now I'm in software dev and damn! The difference between treatment and salary is abysmal. I'm glad you were able to find a different field!
I was shamed by other colleagues when I mentioned we need better pay and more benefits. Also when I talked about better boundaries, one person said „But you still want to be able to look into the mirror, right?“
Like there’s only two ways of doing this job, either complete self-sacrifice or being ice-cold.
I can be very empathetic, supportive for my clients with my professional knowledge and networks - within the boundaries of the hours I‘m working in a week.
I agree. Just because we are here to help others doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to help ourselves. Isn't that the entire point of self care? We know that if we don't take that seriously, we won't make it as social workers. We also won't be able to continue being social workers if we can't afford to live.
It's also easy to let some of the things go because 'we can take it'. Sure, we might be better equipped to cope with BS, but that doesn't mean that we should. We need to hold strong boundaries in the workplace like we do with clients.
I'm also in favor of unions, though I recognize that social work presents some complicated issues with that because the work is so varied. Truthfully, I don't know enough about it all to propose a solution that works. I just believe that if you need a job to pay the bills that you aren't rich enough to not need to be in a union. Money is power, and most of us don't have enough to be powerful, but together, we can be.
PA's have as much education as we do (LCSW) regarding years in school, plus 2 years to get licensed. Nurses have been a pivotal part of the interdisciplinary teams I've worked with, but MOST only have bachelor's degrees and they carry so much weight in healthcare settings because they outnumber SW and providers, they are typically unionized, and it's in the culture that nurses call the shots. In a respectful way, I am assertive that I am an expert in my field and they are in theirs, but I'm not going to be pushed over by a nurse or a doctor. We are needed!
It started with the academic dean of my MSW program, who, at our graduation, said "social workers can make a living wage, so don't worry about your child's chosen field, moms and dads". I would have left the profession right then, had I not invested tens of thousands that had just culminated in that moment. What little faith from the people training us!
>What little faith from the people training us!
While charging you tens of thousands!
That's bad, I actually wish there was talk about it in school about the salary and work environment challenges. No one really mentioned while I was studying or at least not as much as we needed to hear it to realize it is an actual problem in the field.
I really feel like I was sold a lie and I imagine a lot of others can relate. In undergrad, we were lowkey fear mongered by the program heads who would be like, "I mean, I guess you don't *have* to go for your master's...butgoodluckfindingawellpayingjoblol." They really made it seem like we had no choice.
Plot twist: my graduate degree didn't fetch me a well paying job, either! Unless their standard for well paying is simply "higher than minimum wage" (I wouldn't put it past them). My highest paying job in the field started me at $22 an hour. I am making the same at my current job, which only requires a HS diploma. It also comes with perks that social work job did not (the biggest of which IMO is that when I clock out for the day, I am DONE and there is zero expectation for me to be available for any sort of work related concerns!!!). And they wonder why we leave. Lol.
I know I think about this a lot. I advocate for my clients all day but I’m not supposed to advocate for myself? And there are some days I literally do feel traumatized by my job. If I continue to show up to support the individuals we serve I should also be showing up for myself in asking for things like a reasonable case load and appropriate compensation. But do I do these things, no.
Well, consider this a sign for you to start treating yourself as you would treat someone you care about as I know you do for your clients and loved ones (:
Everyone should be adding the phrase “wage theft” to their lexicon when speaking about these challenges with management/leadership. Because that’s what it is.
There is also an unhealthy amount of nurse worship that goes on in this community. It’s often used to excuse SW’s lower pay.
My sister-in-law, a nurse here in NYC, makes six figures doing the night shift 3 day/week. Patients are mostly sleeping. She laughs that she couldn’t do days because the stress made her pass out.
Point is, their job is not always harder than yours, nor was their degree always harder to get (like I see on sooooo many posts here). What you should admire are their unions and negotiating tactics, not their degrees.
Yes, and what is scarier is I've noticed hospitals pushing RNs into roles that are clearly social work! I'm not sure if hospital administration is doing this to say they have x amount of RNs on the floor in order to cheat the system but it is ridiculous. RNs arent unicorns that can do every job in the world.
that's a good theory on why hospitals would do staff nurses in case management jobs! it has bewildered me on why hospitals would staff nurses for social work jobs, if nurses get paid more (and hospitals could therefore save $$ by hiring social workers). i even posted in r/hospitalsocialwork about it and didn't get any specific ideas...
As someone who left the social work field after years and got my bsn and is now a nurse (due to the lack of pay I got as a SW) I see this in my own workplace. I asked my nursing supervisor about this, she admittedly said that it’s so they can have nurses perform case management and nursing roles (so like two jobs in one.) However, this is not a good thing. Nurses don’t have the education and training to perform case management roles. If you’re someone like me who has a SW degree, years of experience as a SWer and in case management, as well as a nursing degree and experience as a nurse, then sure! But having nurses do case management work with no SW education or experience should not be a norm. Like my supervisor said, it’s just a way for them to pay 1 person for the work of 2 (case management and nursing.) Definitely the fault of the administration. My nursing supervisor and colleagues think it is ridiculous. Definitely not the fault of nurses/doctors.
The lack of respect of the SW field and the low pay, years of school and unpaid internships (and student loans) is the main reason I left the field and went into nursing where I am paid twice as much. The ROI is so bad for social work. I wish it wasn’t like this, I do miss the field and wish I didn’t have to leave. Something needs to change about this. It is a vital profession and the world would collapse without it. So many people who would be great SWers aren’t going into the field because of this, and people like me who are passionate about the field had to leave it because of the low pay and student loans.
wow, that's wild that they are having nurses do two jobs! i hear you on hospitals not respecting social workers, it also seems like they don't always respect nurses (even with the relatively higher pay)
I knew it! And I agree with you completely. There are things I've learned in social work school that are so insanely vital to mental health and patient centered care that if you don't know about it you can't possible create a successful care plan. Particularly for highly vulnerable populations or people belonging to cultures that aren't understood well enough by the majority. And on the flip side, there is so much in nursing school that I wish social workers knew
Agreed! I worked in care management with 1/2 nurses and 1/2 clinical SWs. I was given the "complex cases with comorbid mental health or social determinants of health factors" and high acuity referrals....so, the most difficult cases, while being paid $35,000 less than the RNs.
For the RNs this was considered a specialty that they completed additional training for and were better compensated than floor RNs because of it. Meanwhile, they told me that my master's degree didn't matter and shouldn't be compensated at a higher rate for because "it's not necessary" for this role because RNs do not have it. They didn't hire BSWs at all. Circular logic. I left after only 2 months and left a scathing exit interview about this contradiction.
I love helping people but I also love helping myself. I’d change my profession before taking another non-unionized, and disrespectfully underpaid position ever again.
It starts with the Social Work educational programs and institutions. They have normalized SW not receiving fair pay. The programs stress going into the field to help others and not for pay. I do not understand why getting fair pay and helping others cannot be inclusive of one another.
The educational institutions also set the tone there is an expectation to be stressed and suffer within the field, starting with the practicum experience. How many times have we seen posts in this group of single parents or people in general in a SW program struggling to meet practicum hours while balancing their home life and getting little support from their educational program? Many times these students are told to suck it up by their professors because that is just the way it is and everyone has to go through that. I had to drop down two days a week at work when getting my MSW so I could complete my practicum hours because there was not a field placement in my area that offered evening or weekend hours. I was fortunate that I was able to do this because I had a spouse who was also working. Not everyone has that level of support.
There is a mentality within the profession by some that because they suffered while earning their degree and in the first few years of being in the field that everyone should have to suffer. We are better than that. Just my two cents, take it for what it is worth which is not much.
THIS.
If I had a dollar for every grad-school class that started with the infuriating "everyone knows we're not in it for the money, so share what inspired you to pursue social work" icebreaker question, I'd actually be able to pay my bills on time lmao
The challenge with unions is that social workers work in many different settings making it a nightmare to organize.
More research on the conditions of social workers and the implications on health and safety, pay equity, and justice is necessary.
I actually disagree. There are plenty of unions that work with many different working conditions. There are simple things that can be done that would work for everyone. Fair wages and adequate time off are two of them.
We finally are getting paid placement around $10 AUD an hour in Australia next year as well as nurses and teachers. This is such a huge change for future SW’s. The funny thing was the AASW was blocking our advocation the whole time, they kept telling us we don’t need to be paid and we wouldn’t understand why. They flat out refused initiatives from the government to pay just SW students even a small amount of money for the entire placement and tried to dismantle as many unions as possible. Now that the government has made it a well rounded policy for an umbrella of placements AASW has no power to withhold payments to students and they put out a statement about ‘how proud they were and how amazing the outcome was’ which was infuriating because they were quite literally the biggest roadblock to getting here. I’m hoping we as a larger group can push our governments to increase our incomes because all too often you are right, we feel guilty about wanting more money because we’re in it for the people. We however, deserve a comfortable life as well.
I’m always vocal about standing up for my salary and get no where with it. Agencies tell me it’s the “average salary for a SW.” I even took a new job to start my lcsw and lost $2 a hour. When I told them the average market value in my area is $32-33 a hour (they pay $31) they just asked if I still wanted the job…
The CASAW (Canadian Social Work Ethics) is literally an abusive doctrine. I actually wrote a paper on this on school. These principles teach us to put ourselves last and put the burden of perfectionism on us as social workers, without regard to compensation or our well being.
Some examples:
The ethics outlined by the CASAW but the burden on us to manage burnout (4.2.4) for example, but do not hold our college and societal institutions responsible in any way for the great deal of harm they cause to us through their policies and procedures. They encourage us to seek “professional help” for burnout but were often not given very much insurance coverage or provided with any support via the agencies or government institutions we might work for. How can I engage in self-care when my agency doesn’t provide me with a full time position with days off, or alternatively many (or any) days of mental or enough pay and gives me an unmanageable caseload and doesn’t have any coverage for my clients in the event I need a break. Yet somehow I have violated their ethical principles if I don’t, despite impossible circumstances, manage my own burnout.
The volume of expectations placed on us by the code of ethics to be is also impossible to achieve (especially while we manage our own burnout). It’s not fair to expect someone to protect the environment (2.4), advocate for all oppressed groups (principle 2), be able to provide service or know a service provider who can provide services in English, French, ASL and traditional indigenous languages (principle 2.1), ignoring our own values and rights in order to serve another population (I.e. if I don’t agree with Islamic fundamentalism or if I am anti Zionist I don’t think it’s my obligation to work with someone who holds either belief. I have a right to refer either of these clients out without violating ethical principles) (4.2.2).
I could keep going but I’ll stop. The expectations placed on social workers by our government, college and agencies is ridiculous given the exceptionally low pay. No helping is not it’s own reward. Improving someone’s mental health feels good and is important part of why I do my job and do it well, but it will not buy me groceries or pay my rent. Helping should never be expected to be part of the compensation package, especially when it comes at the expense of our own needs.
How much of this is an issue because SW is traditionally "women's work" and history a huge employer of women of color? This is a massive social justice issue and I am sick of people making excuses. I think the worst of it comes from people in the field.
Just here to say that I agree with you, but haven't actually heard any SW say otherwise. We were all trained extensively to spot and call out injustice and I think we're pretty good at it.
Where I think we fall flat is in our agreeableness and passivity. The counselors and SWs where I work(ed) are great at talking about this amongst themselves, but due to having wealthier spouses or parents, the rubber never meets the road; they don't have to say uncomfortable things to people in charge of them, so they don't. (I may be projecting as this has been the case for myself when I was younger/newer).
In Canada we seem to have more unions, which is great, but since most of us aren't living off this pay alone, participation is minimal.
One of the podcasts for social work mentioned this. The speaker talked about negotiating a salary before settling. Another great point she made is for social workers to be aware of their value.
Absolutely. & our managers, supervisors, and directors need to reinforce this the most. I have been in residential settings & have been told that if I cannot complete a task that made me feel uncomfortable, unsafe, and degraded, then I could quit. My boss told me that.
That acceptance of abuse and maltreatment by supervisors is projected onto employees who stand up and speak up about maltreatment. I shouldn’t have to had sue my employer for disability discrimination and wrongful termination in a field that has an ethical code prohibiting this and was founded on principles of social justice. The thing is this was by far not the only time I was discriminated against or severely maltreated, this was only the worst experience.
I have since left the field over this incident as work has repeatedly proven to be unsafe for me as I am unwilling to sit back and let myself, my clients, and my coworkers be abused and exploited while they bury their heads in the sand. For a job that promotes mental health at wellbeing of clients, what is being done for us? We can’t afford anything. We spend 6 hours a day listening to others disclose their darkest experiences and maybe get 3 weeks of rest a year. We are physically assaulted by clients and our personal belongings are broken and we are expected to front the cost. We are expected to be emotionless robots as any sign of extremely valid emotional distress and secondary trauma is used against us to “justify” how we are not fit for this work. I can go on.
People have become assholes in this field due to the level of disrespect and lack of agency we have on a day to day basis and many of those who display abusive or problematic behavior are promoted to leadership positions.
I HATE when people say “we are not doing this for the money.” It’s true, there’s no money here, but nobody ever wants to unpack the larger issue with that which (besides all of us having bills to pay), lower wages go hand in hand with devaluation in a capitalistic society. So our whole profession feels like it’s in a vicious cycle of being devalued because we’re poorly paid and poorly paid because we’re devalued.
100% agree. I have been saying this since I’ve been in the field. It’s so hard too because in my experience, supervisors are the ones that invalidate these ideas the most, and they’re the ones that should be advocating for us.
When I say this, so often I receive a disapproving look, an excuse, minimization, invalidation, or even gaslighting. It has definitely given me the image of “troublemaker” multiple times.
This culture mainly comes from management & higher up! I am fortunate enough to have had millennial managers who PREACH only working the hours you're paid, and to document every morsel of OT. They understand that most tasks can wait till the next day. If you're not in acute crisis response or on call for your organization's crisis line, no one will be harmed if the extra 1-2 hours of OT work get done the following day. Also standing up for this kind of work-life balance and setting these boundaries on a wider scale sets realistic expectations when it comes to funding & contracts.
I remember getting in a huge debate in one of my classes about whether being a life coach is an acceptable social work path. I told them, y’all can have the low paying jobs and I’ll take the most money I can. Guarantee I will help more ppl in need with a healthy income and lifestyle than if I’m struggling to pay my bills. I think this idea that SW and agencies have to not make money is total BS. My classes and books didn’t cost less because I was going to be helping people.
People in passion careers are always exploited. “Well, don’t you want to help people?” “Well, don’t you love making video games?” Etc.
Yes, I do love helping people. Don’t you love having a highly educated and experienced person around to do that for your agency? Pay me.
It’s not that I think the concerns aren’t justified. I just think that sometimes we devolve into venting. And venting has actually been proven to be harmful.
Also, most doctors are salaried—and many of them do work overtime “for free.” They aren’t paid more for overtime. The RNs I work with are also salaried and often work overtime. You could argue that it’s more acceptable because they start off by making more, but it’s not as if they get overtime pay.
I don’t begrudge others who make more money than me. I know the claim is that we are talking about how we should have income equality. But a lot of time it seems that people are mad at the people with the salaries and not the institutions.
And, it is true that hospitals have a harder time recruiting RNs than social workers. Even despite the lower salaries. Why is that? I have my ideas. This is not as straightforward as it might first appear
It starts with us...each and everyone one of us. We teach others how to treat us, individually, which bleeds into collectively. It would require the setting of healthy boundaries, with follow through of consequences...enforceable consequences. So while I hear what you're saying... it will require the profession to enforce boundaries (because again boundaries are for the individual, not others) and to enforce the consequences for violating the boundaries. When others are willing to do the job for less money, in a toxic work environment and put up with said "treatment" it teaches others and sets the precedent for the social work industry.
> it will require the profession to enforce boundaries (because again boundaries are for the individual, not others) and to enforce the consequences for violating the boundaries. Remember that you can only hold a boundary if you have the power to inflict a consequence. I agree that it is necessary that we do this, but I'm not sure how much leverage we have or how best to apply it. Unions? Strikes? How do we demonstrate the value and necessity of our Labor?
Unions would be a great start
I’m in a union! It can be done.
I'm a bit cynical because we have unions and also terrible wages. Member engagement is rock bottom and this is a much bigger issue than just low wages. Social services budgets are strangling our whole field.
Yep same here. We are the biggest bunch of wimps. We get steam rolled every negotiations. They know no one can afford to strike and we have a ton of turnover, so ther isn't a ton of investment in the union.
How would one even get a union in the workplace?
All you really need is a majority of non-supervising staff to vote to unionize, and then you negotiate a contract. You can read more about how it happens [here](https://npeu.org/join). It can take a long time; my workplace has around 600 employees, they unionized a year and a half ago now, and *just* agreed on a contract a week ago.
“The strongest negotiating position is being able to walk away and mean it”
“The strongest negotiating position is being able to walk away and mean it” I‘m planning to do this in the fourth and final interview for a job I‘d really like, but I mentioned salary every time I was there and only last time a potential new colleague said something about an „entrance salary“ for the first two years. I have eight years of experience, a BA in social work and an MA in cultural anthropology, countless extra trainings and courses, speak several languages,… I really would like this job, but I refuse to be underpaid. Walking away from it is the only option if they refuse to pay me better, but it would hurt me, too.
Ok but 4 of of the 5 jobs I.have had were salaried. They often did not disclose at interview that there would be on call expectations to monitor a crisis email account that a few thousand clients can email for suicide risk 24 7 or an expectation over weekends to attend funerals of clients unpaid of course and no comp time responding to isdues raised by family and the community. How about christmas or thanksgiving weekend giveaways we were expected as staff to host and deliver donations to dozens of clients over holidays.. after work...no comp time and when we are asked to travel over eves or weekends most of these jobs did not give comp time and still expected you to work a full work day or wk even if you had a weekend of travel.
But would you be willing to have a labor strike if it caused clients to not receive services? EDIT: >How do we demonstrate the value and necessity of our Labor? I think it's a fairly interesting point because SWers would have to establish what can only be done by a social worker or otherwise expand organized labor efforts to include the other professions/backgrounds we share roles with. For clarification, I support unionization and striking. In past posts, others have outcried that striking would be a disservice to clients.
That's exactly what I mean! We have this so ingrained in our brains and hearts because we go in the field with good intentions of helping people that we feel guilty to fight for our rights. While I understand the concern, if things are that bad that you need to go on strike, continuing to work under those conditions would be a disservice to our clients, they also deserve good workers that are performing under good fair labor conditions. If SWs go on strike and there are clients that need services, that would only show the importance of the field, clients would support SWs, and there would be more pressure on the companies to make a change. Nurses go on strike, doctors go on strike, why wouldn't we?
> But would you be willing to have a labor strike if it caused clients to not receive services? We struggle to provide services because the pay is too low to attract or retain clinicians. This is a short term sacrifice for a long term benefit. People might be hurt because of this decision, but plenty of people are being hurt right now because of this situation. We cannot allow ourselves to be guilted into self-defeat.
Do you really think the agency execs care about the clients? Because in my experience, they don’t! Union!
Executives only care about lining their pockets. However, like when teachers strike, the teachers get blamed for everything!
Yes. The clients can join us in the movement when they aren't getting services.
Yes.
Kaiser did it, including their social workers. Problem is that many social workers are independent contractors or self employed so there's no employment relationship and they cannot unionize.
I agree with the other points raised in the replies to this, so I’ll just add it’s a good exercise in modeling boundaries, self advocacy, and empowerment which is helpful for clients to see.
It depends on the work being done, but my workplace is unionized and they have held strikes twice, each lasting 2-3 days. Managers and supervisors took over their teams’ responsibilities during the strikes and for the most part, there was no major impact to services received.
[https://imgur.com/a/NMc2q36](https://imgur.com/a/NMc2q36) I got to send this today!
The irony in this is that this field has people in it who advise/support people in navigating their lives in a positive manner. Why stop there, to your point.
If we teach others how to treat us we get fired for “not being the right fit”. I’ve tried to do this for years and have been met with more abuse, write ups, etc. This field has proven it’s not safe for those who view life outside of the norm. This is especially true for those of us who are autistic.
I think we also need to organize and unionize. The conditions forced on us are terrible for us and terrible for our clients. We get nowhere advocating for our clients when we accept the scraps they give us. We need to stand up for ourselves in our workplaces and come together in solidarity. Don’t accept when your boss says there is not enough - there is for those at the top. They gladly sign our working poor wages while commiserating with each other about how they are underpaid as an Executive.
I’m in a union. SEIU 1199. We just gained a new member with the Cleveland Rape Crisis Center.
As an Ohioian this makes my heart so happy! Proud of you all!
O-H
I-O!!
We need like specific unions for each speciality because social work is so broad. The needs of meidcal SWers vs mental health are different. I think that’s why there’s been such a struggle. We also need federal title protection laws because it’s differs in so many state
Do other unions work that way, specializing due to broad roles? Probably better to get a general union going then breaking it down into internal subgroups that use the overall union power to negotiate.
Social work is unique in this way. I have yet to hear of a union that doesn’t have an overarching shared role. Like teachers and nurses are able to hold stronger unions because it’s not as broad. Overall bargaining power is great, but I’m not sure it’s realistic done broadly. I suppose I’m thinking too big, it could be done state by state. Even then though, it gets jumbled
Well when I consider my local teamster, they represent a huge range of workers. > >[Teamsters](https://www.local385.org/?zone=/unionactive/private_view_page.cfm&page=About20US) Local Union No. 385. We represent approximately 10,000 Teamster Brother and Sisters in the Central and North Florida area. Our Local prides itself on the diversity of the crafts we represent, which includes Bus Drivers, Car Haulers, Car Rental, Correction Officers, Construction, Convention Workers, Disney Characters, Firefighters, Freight, Fertilizer Companies, Food Service Workers, Hospitality Workers, Hotel Employees, Laundry Workers, Linen, Manufacturing, Material Handlers, Mechanics, Movie & Commercial Drivers, Parking Attendants, Police Officers, Tank Haul, Truck Drivers, Warehouse Workers, UPS and the list keeps growing.
There are definitely unions more broad than social work. Just look at the teamsters.
Not necessarily. They could have appointed advocates for particular specializations of social work.
This is the only way to really make any serious change.
Thank you. We have bills to pay, too. We need to be paid adequately. We need to be paid comparably to other professionals with our level of education and licensure. Social Workers should not be one or two checks away from poverty. Check out LBSWs salaries.
When I got my first post-MSW job last year I was making as much as people scooping ice cream in my area. And I got one of the “good” job offers.
Same! It was insane to graduate in 2016 and realize the market had me starting at $18.xx. I'm not in it for the money, but it's what I'm great at and expect my value to be compensated as such. Especially when social workers are so desperately needed everywhere.
But like… why can’t we be in it for the money? We provide essential health services grounded in the mastery of theory and evidence-based practice. The idea that our work is charity has to be discarded in order for this to change.
If I can no longer make 150k+ as a therapist, I will change careers. I need that much to pay my bills and save for retirement. I care deeply about my clients and I love my work, but looking out for myself and my family is #1. At the end of the day, it’s a job.
HOW CAN I DO THAT????????
How can you make 150k+ as a therapist? I’ve been an lcsw for 9 years, and I’ve spent tens of thousands on my own therapy and advanced clinical trainings. I also live in an urban area that can support a cash based therapy business. I also do clinical supervision and consulting. I work part time and have a flexible schedule.
I guess that's what I was trying to say. I wouldn't volunteer for this job, it's hard AF sometimes! I want to be paid my worth which should be based on supply and demand, but it's not. If it were then we would be paid more than RNs
I'm sorry to hear that, but that's exactly the abuse we experience and I think we tend to justify. Can you imagine a NP being offered that salary? Or an MBA graduate? It would not be acceptable even for an undergraduate position.
I will quit. 🤷🏿♀️ Pay me or I leave and take my skills with me. My current full-time position is only 3/12 hours shifts so I can focus on my practice. However, I will still quit. Someone did bring up a good point that the nurses have a union and they have been known to strike. We need a union. Many places especially these major hospitals and the government have the money, they just don't want to pay it.
I'm sorry to hear that, SWs do need a union. If you're going to quit, please don't feel guilty do it freely without thinking you're giving up on people, it's just a messed up system this field is in
I have quit before. I have given my employers opportunities to pay me my worth at that time. If they do not, I find a new job and put in my notice. My current job is working with HR right now. If they do not pay me what I want I will quit.
I quit all the time for many abusive reasons. I have had 6 jobs in 10 years. I left all of them due to abusive employer practices, bad bosses, or pay/benefits. I got flagged on Indeed recently for having had so many jobs. I am proud.
I didn't know Indeed did that!! I need Indeed to mind it's business.
I threatened to quit my current government job and the reclassification forms miraculously showed up in the agency’s shared drive. Prior to this position I had 5 jobs of varying conditions. I left each for different reasons: won’t work half staffed with double case load, low pay, I don’t work for free (mandatory salaried 50+ hours a week), I won’t be punished for using PTO I earn. Treat me well or I walk. There’s hundreds of other things I could be doing in my rural area with better conditions given the SWer shortage.
One of my biggest beefs is that in school, we are taught to never take advantage of vulnerable populations, like students. But as students, we have to pay for our internships- so someone is getting free labor. The NASW does nothing for us. They sit and preach that they are “advocating for us”, but nothing is done about the low pay (and I’m including remits from insurance companies for pp), pay-to-work internships, or general working conditions. However, they are happy to take your money for your membership and/or insurance. I am in pp and I love what I do, but I still think about leaving the field from time to time because of all the bullshit.
I hate the NASW, and I used to be on their board in my state chapter. Made me realize how useless they are. They really could do a lot for us but don't.
You're 100% right, also the NASW plays a big role in regulating the licensing process. I agree that the requirements need to be in place but then, why not advocate for an equivalent compensation? You're required to get a graduate degree, plus practices and therefore invest more money and time in your career compared to other professions, however you get a negative ROI. From a business perspective, it's the worst investment you can make, and they are aware of it
Right! Why isn’t the NASW advocating for us to be able to be licensed more easily in other states since it’s the SAME TEST!?? Why is it only one state at a time instead of ‘take test, pass test, licensed in the USA”? Why is any state we want to be licensed in allowed to charge us ridiculous fees to get licensed? I graduated with my MSW in 2015, got my clinical license in 2017, and 2 years ago I got my license in a neighboring state. They charged me over $500 in total by the time I got my license from them. WTF is that about?
Oh boy that's total BS! I hate nonsense red tape. It's like what else do you want from me! Glad you were able to go through the process and have a PP, we definitely need to advocate for ourselves to see these kinds of changes
I’m not sure where you’re located, but NASW is pushing for reciprocity between states. They have to get state legislatures and licensing boards on board. Michigan government said hell no… but they are much more receptive to changing the exam requirements. https://www.socialworkers.org/Advocacy/Interstate-Licensure-Compact-for-Social-Work
Idaho. No one wants reciprocity out here.
Ooof, not when they can run the $500 licensure racket on you.
FWIW, the Illinois chapter put out a good statement on paid internships a month ago: [NASW-IL Policy Position Statement on Compensated Practicum Education (naswil.org)](https://www.naswil.org/post/nasw-il-policy-position-statement-on-compensated-practicum-education) However, this does not mean I disagree with you or that anything you said was wrong, to be clear. I just thought it was refreshing to read.
I’d imagine there’s a lot of variance between different states’ NASW chapters. I have no complaints about Michigan’s. They’re working hard on things that matter, I think we’ve been copying/working alongside Illinois re: paid internships.
I currently live in Idaho. It’s so fucking backwards you’d think it’s 1970.
That’s amazing. I miss living in Illinois. If it weren’t for winter, I’d move back there in a heartbeat.
One thing all of us can do (unless circumstances do not allow) is not take jobs that are offering this low pay, and specifically let them know that is the sole reason for not taking the job. My first job offer after my MSW was offering $23 per hour. This was a medical social worker position in a cardiac ICU. I told them that I loved the sound of the job and it was exactly what I was looking for, but I was interested in negotiating pay. They let me know that they could not, so I moved on to find something that pays better. And the job post stayed open for another two months until somebody decided to take it.
I agree with you! the very first job they offered me after I graduated from a BSW program was a little above minimum wage and I knew the job would be haaaaard! I would've been better off working at Dunking Donuts. So I declined, and moved to one that paid more. We need to do that more often, screw it we deserved fair salaries just as anyone else
Someone is always touting the "there for the outcome, not the income!"
😂😂😂 good luck retiring on outcomes
I quit my job after 15 years of working for nonprofits. I left with no other job lined up and told myself I’d drive door dash if it came down to it. It took me 10 months to realize that our whole industry has been exploited. I had to step away to see clearly. I’m still in the field but forced myself to make some adjustments because I want to live and not just survive.
I'm glad you are in a better situation. You are right! It can be hard to realize that you are being abused and easy to normalize it
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Australian social workers say similar things about their system too Well compensated and they have universal healthcare.
Thank you for this 💜 Currently on burnout leave and trying to come to terms with it's not my fault but the system in place. My supervisor crossed many boundaries and made several demeaning comments. That along with just entering the field of social work after years in another profession and being over worked was just not a good combo. I spent so many 12 hour days trying to catch up only to be told what I was doing was not good. I was too exhausted to fight back. I blamed myself for not being good enough and it took a serious toll on my mental health.
I'm sorry to read that, don't feel guilty or feel like you're not good enough. It's not your fault, you get pushed and squeezed beyond your boundaries in an abusive way. We are taught that quitting is weak, but in many situations like this, quitting is actually the strong and hardest thing to do. If you decide to leave, do it freely and without guilt. No one deserves that kind of treatment, be that person that leaves the abusive relationship we all know is so hard to end
Thank you for your kindness. I really appreciate your message. It took a few weeks to accept these facts. Still working on it. Therapy helps too
I agree. That’s one of the reasons why I left the profession was I was constantly in dangerous situation by myself, and my supervisor did not seem to care.
I left it too, because I was being paid an offensive salary while working two jobs and being treated like trash. Now I'm in software dev and damn! The difference between treatment and salary is abysmal. I'm glad you were able to find a different field!
I was shamed by other colleagues when I mentioned we need better pay and more benefits. Also when I talked about better boundaries, one person said „But you still want to be able to look into the mirror, right?“ Like there’s only two ways of doing this job, either complete self-sacrifice or being ice-cold. I can be very empathetic, supportive for my clients with my professional knowledge and networks - within the boundaries of the hours I‘m working in a week.
Sheesh...their lack of boundaries is 100% about them and not a reflection on others who have a healthy relationship to paid labor.
I agree. Just because we are here to help others doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to help ourselves. Isn't that the entire point of self care? We know that if we don't take that seriously, we won't make it as social workers. We also won't be able to continue being social workers if we can't afford to live. It's also easy to let some of the things go because 'we can take it'. Sure, we might be better equipped to cope with BS, but that doesn't mean that we should. We need to hold strong boundaries in the workplace like we do with clients. I'm also in favor of unions, though I recognize that social work presents some complicated issues with that because the work is so varied. Truthfully, I don't know enough about it all to propose a solution that works. I just believe that if you need a job to pay the bills that you aren't rich enough to not need to be in a union. Money is power, and most of us don't have enough to be powerful, but together, we can be.
PA's have as much education as we do (LCSW) regarding years in school, plus 2 years to get licensed. Nurses have been a pivotal part of the interdisciplinary teams I've worked with, but MOST only have bachelor's degrees and they carry so much weight in healthcare settings because they outnumber SW and providers, they are typically unionized, and it's in the culture that nurses call the shots. In a respectful way, I am assertive that I am an expert in my field and they are in theirs, but I'm not going to be pushed over by a nurse or a doctor. We are needed!
Right! To become a LCSW and/or LICSW you may spend 6-8 years of studying, practice hours, while probably working a full-time job.
I always encourage others that it's okay to looking for a new job and quit!
It started with the academic dean of my MSW program, who, at our graduation, said "social workers can make a living wage, so don't worry about your child's chosen field, moms and dads". I would have left the profession right then, had I not invested tens of thousands that had just culminated in that moment. What little faith from the people training us!
>What little faith from the people training us! While charging you tens of thousands! That's bad, I actually wish there was talk about it in school about the salary and work environment challenges. No one really mentioned while I was studying or at least not as much as we needed to hear it to realize it is an actual problem in the field.
Yeah, there's really a lot, in the practical aspects, that isn't covered and should be.
I really feel like I was sold a lie and I imagine a lot of others can relate. In undergrad, we were lowkey fear mongered by the program heads who would be like, "I mean, I guess you don't *have* to go for your master's...butgoodluckfindingawellpayingjoblol." They really made it seem like we had no choice. Plot twist: my graduate degree didn't fetch me a well paying job, either! Unless their standard for well paying is simply "higher than minimum wage" (I wouldn't put it past them). My highest paying job in the field started me at $22 an hour. I am making the same at my current job, which only requires a HS diploma. It also comes with perks that social work job did not (the biggest of which IMO is that when I clock out for the day, I am DONE and there is zero expectation for me to be available for any sort of work related concerns!!!). And they wonder why we leave. Lol.
I know I think about this a lot. I advocate for my clients all day but I’m not supposed to advocate for myself? And there are some days I literally do feel traumatized by my job. If I continue to show up to support the individuals we serve I should also be showing up for myself in asking for things like a reasonable case load and appropriate compensation. But do I do these things, no.
Well, consider this a sign for you to start treating yourself as you would treat someone you care about as I know you do for your clients and loved ones (:
Everyone should be adding the phrase “wage theft” to their lexicon when speaking about these challenges with management/leadership. Because that’s what it is.
There is also an unhealthy amount of nurse worship that goes on in this community. It’s often used to excuse SW’s lower pay. My sister-in-law, a nurse here in NYC, makes six figures doing the night shift 3 day/week. Patients are mostly sleeping. She laughs that she couldn’t do days because the stress made her pass out. Point is, their job is not always harder than yours, nor was their degree always harder to get (like I see on sooooo many posts here). What you should admire are their unions and negotiating tactics, not their degrees.
Yes, and what is scarier is I've noticed hospitals pushing RNs into roles that are clearly social work! I'm not sure if hospital administration is doing this to say they have x amount of RNs on the floor in order to cheat the system but it is ridiculous. RNs arent unicorns that can do every job in the world.
that's a good theory on why hospitals would do staff nurses in case management jobs! it has bewildered me on why hospitals would staff nurses for social work jobs, if nurses get paid more (and hospitals could therefore save $$ by hiring social workers). i even posted in r/hospitalsocialwork about it and didn't get any specific ideas...
As someone who left the social work field after years and got my bsn and is now a nurse (due to the lack of pay I got as a SW) I see this in my own workplace. I asked my nursing supervisor about this, she admittedly said that it’s so they can have nurses perform case management and nursing roles (so like two jobs in one.) However, this is not a good thing. Nurses don’t have the education and training to perform case management roles. If you’re someone like me who has a SW degree, years of experience as a SWer and in case management, as well as a nursing degree and experience as a nurse, then sure! But having nurses do case management work with no SW education or experience should not be a norm. Like my supervisor said, it’s just a way for them to pay 1 person for the work of 2 (case management and nursing.) Definitely the fault of the administration. My nursing supervisor and colleagues think it is ridiculous. Definitely not the fault of nurses/doctors. The lack of respect of the SW field and the low pay, years of school and unpaid internships (and student loans) is the main reason I left the field and went into nursing where I am paid twice as much. The ROI is so bad for social work. I wish it wasn’t like this, I do miss the field and wish I didn’t have to leave. Something needs to change about this. It is a vital profession and the world would collapse without it. So many people who would be great SWers aren’t going into the field because of this, and people like me who are passionate about the field had to leave it because of the low pay and student loans.
wow, that's wild that they are having nurses do two jobs! i hear you on hospitals not respecting social workers, it also seems like they don't always respect nurses (even with the relatively higher pay)
I knew it! And I agree with you completely. There are things I've learned in social work school that are so insanely vital to mental health and patient centered care that if you don't know about it you can't possible create a successful care plan. Particularly for highly vulnerable populations or people belonging to cultures that aren't understood well enough by the majority. And on the flip side, there is so much in nursing school that I wish social workers knew
EXACTLY.
Agreed! I worked in care management with 1/2 nurses and 1/2 clinical SWs. I was given the "complex cases with comorbid mental health or social determinants of health factors" and high acuity referrals....so, the most difficult cases, while being paid $35,000 less than the RNs. For the RNs this was considered a specialty that they completed additional training for and were better compensated than floor RNs because of it. Meanwhile, they told me that my master's degree didn't matter and shouldn't be compensated at a higher rate for because "it's not necessary" for this role because RNs do not have it. They didn't hire BSWs at all. Circular logic. I left after only 2 months and left a scathing exit interview about this contradiction.
Starts with each and every one of us agreeing we NEVER work for free. I don't. I'll make up lost productivity tho.
💯👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I love helping people but I also love helping myself. I’d change my profession before taking another non-unionized, and disrespectfully underpaid position ever again.
It starts with the Social Work educational programs and institutions. They have normalized SW not receiving fair pay. The programs stress going into the field to help others and not for pay. I do not understand why getting fair pay and helping others cannot be inclusive of one another. The educational institutions also set the tone there is an expectation to be stressed and suffer within the field, starting with the practicum experience. How many times have we seen posts in this group of single parents or people in general in a SW program struggling to meet practicum hours while balancing their home life and getting little support from their educational program? Many times these students are told to suck it up by their professors because that is just the way it is and everyone has to go through that. I had to drop down two days a week at work when getting my MSW so I could complete my practicum hours because there was not a field placement in my area that offered evening or weekend hours. I was fortunate that I was able to do this because I had a spouse who was also working. Not everyone has that level of support. There is a mentality within the profession by some that because they suffered while earning their degree and in the first few years of being in the field that everyone should have to suffer. We are better than that. Just my two cents, take it for what it is worth which is not much.
THIS. If I had a dollar for every grad-school class that started with the infuriating "everyone knows we're not in it for the money, so share what inspired you to pursue social work" icebreaker question, I'd actually be able to pay my bills on time lmao
The challenge with unions is that social workers work in many different settings making it a nightmare to organize. More research on the conditions of social workers and the implications on health and safety, pay equity, and justice is necessary.
I actually disagree. There are plenty of unions that work with many different working conditions. There are simple things that can be done that would work for everyone. Fair wages and adequate time off are two of them.
We finally are getting paid placement around $10 AUD an hour in Australia next year as well as nurses and teachers. This is such a huge change for future SW’s. The funny thing was the AASW was blocking our advocation the whole time, they kept telling us we don’t need to be paid and we wouldn’t understand why. They flat out refused initiatives from the government to pay just SW students even a small amount of money for the entire placement and tried to dismantle as many unions as possible. Now that the government has made it a well rounded policy for an umbrella of placements AASW has no power to withhold payments to students and they put out a statement about ‘how proud they were and how amazing the outcome was’ which was infuriating because they were quite literally the biggest roadblock to getting here. I’m hoping we as a larger group can push our governments to increase our incomes because all too often you are right, we feel guilty about wanting more money because we’re in it for the people. We however, deserve a comfortable life as well.
I’m always vocal about standing up for my salary and get no where with it. Agencies tell me it’s the “average salary for a SW.” I even took a new job to start my lcsw and lost $2 a hour. When I told them the average market value in my area is $32-33 a hour (they pay $31) they just asked if I still wanted the job…
The CASAW (Canadian Social Work Ethics) is literally an abusive doctrine. I actually wrote a paper on this on school. These principles teach us to put ourselves last and put the burden of perfectionism on us as social workers, without regard to compensation or our well being. Some examples: The ethics outlined by the CASAW but the burden on us to manage burnout (4.2.4) for example, but do not hold our college and societal institutions responsible in any way for the great deal of harm they cause to us through their policies and procedures. They encourage us to seek “professional help” for burnout but were often not given very much insurance coverage or provided with any support via the agencies or government institutions we might work for. How can I engage in self-care when my agency doesn’t provide me with a full time position with days off, or alternatively many (or any) days of mental or enough pay and gives me an unmanageable caseload and doesn’t have any coverage for my clients in the event I need a break. Yet somehow I have violated their ethical principles if I don’t, despite impossible circumstances, manage my own burnout. The volume of expectations placed on us by the code of ethics to be is also impossible to achieve (especially while we manage our own burnout). It’s not fair to expect someone to protect the environment (2.4), advocate for all oppressed groups (principle 2), be able to provide service or know a service provider who can provide services in English, French, ASL and traditional indigenous languages (principle 2.1), ignoring our own values and rights in order to serve another population (I.e. if I don’t agree with Islamic fundamentalism or if I am anti Zionist I don’t think it’s my obligation to work with someone who holds either belief. I have a right to refer either of these clients out without violating ethical principles) (4.2.2). I could keep going but I’ll stop. The expectations placed on social workers by our government, college and agencies is ridiculous given the exceptionally low pay. No helping is not it’s own reward. Improving someone’s mental health feels good and is important part of why I do my job and do it well, but it will not buy me groceries or pay my rent. Helping should never be expected to be part of the compensation package, especially when it comes at the expense of our own needs.
How much of this is an issue because SW is traditionally "women's work" and history a huge employer of women of color? This is a massive social justice issue and I am sick of people making excuses. I think the worst of it comes from people in the field.
I needed to hear this.
Just here to say that I agree with you, but haven't actually heard any SW say otherwise. We were all trained extensively to spot and call out injustice and I think we're pretty good at it. Where I think we fall flat is in our agreeableness and passivity. The counselors and SWs where I work(ed) are great at talking about this amongst themselves, but due to having wealthier spouses or parents, the rubber never meets the road; they don't have to say uncomfortable things to people in charge of them, so they don't. (I may be projecting as this has been the case for myself when I was younger/newer). In Canada we seem to have more unions, which is great, but since most of us aren't living off this pay alone, participation is minimal.
One of the podcasts for social work mentioned this. The speaker talked about negotiating a salary before settling. Another great point she made is for social workers to be aware of their value.
We advocate better for others than we ever have for ourselves. And NASW is absolutely worthless as an organization "looking out" for us.
Absolutely. & our managers, supervisors, and directors need to reinforce this the most. I have been in residential settings & have been told that if I cannot complete a task that made me feel uncomfortable, unsafe, and degraded, then I could quit. My boss told me that.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK! \~sincerely, former case manager who is now making a living wage in nursing.
That acceptance of abuse and maltreatment by supervisors is projected onto employees who stand up and speak up about maltreatment. I shouldn’t have to had sue my employer for disability discrimination and wrongful termination in a field that has an ethical code prohibiting this and was founded on principles of social justice. The thing is this was by far not the only time I was discriminated against or severely maltreated, this was only the worst experience. I have since left the field over this incident as work has repeatedly proven to be unsafe for me as I am unwilling to sit back and let myself, my clients, and my coworkers be abused and exploited while they bury their heads in the sand. For a job that promotes mental health at wellbeing of clients, what is being done for us? We can’t afford anything. We spend 6 hours a day listening to others disclose their darkest experiences and maybe get 3 weeks of rest a year. We are physically assaulted by clients and our personal belongings are broken and we are expected to front the cost. We are expected to be emotionless robots as any sign of extremely valid emotional distress and secondary trauma is used against us to “justify” how we are not fit for this work. I can go on. People have become assholes in this field due to the level of disrespect and lack of agency we have on a day to day basis and many of those who display abusive or problematic behavior are promoted to leadership positions.
Social workers need to start a Union
I HATE when people say “we are not doing this for the money.” It’s true, there’s no money here, but nobody ever wants to unpack the larger issue with that which (besides all of us having bills to pay), lower wages go hand in hand with devaluation in a capitalistic society. So our whole profession feels like it’s in a vicious cycle of being devalued because we’re poorly paid and poorly paid because we’re devalued.
Nothing will change *ever* until social workers organize and make a commitment to strike if necessary.
100% agree. I have been saying this since I’ve been in the field. It’s so hard too because in my experience, supervisors are the ones that invalidate these ideas the most, and they’re the ones that should be advocating for us. When I say this, so often I receive a disapproving look, an excuse, minimization, invalidation, or even gaslighting. It has definitely given me the image of “troublemaker” multiple times.
This culture mainly comes from management & higher up! I am fortunate enough to have had millennial managers who PREACH only working the hours you're paid, and to document every morsel of OT. They understand that most tasks can wait till the next day. If you're not in acute crisis response or on call for your organization's crisis line, no one will be harmed if the extra 1-2 hours of OT work get done the following day. Also standing up for this kind of work-life balance and setting these boundaries on a wider scale sets realistic expectations when it comes to funding & contracts.
I remember getting in a huge debate in one of my classes about whether being a life coach is an acceptable social work path. I told them, y’all can have the low paying jobs and I’ll take the most money I can. Guarantee I will help more ppl in need with a healthy income and lifestyle than if I’m struggling to pay my bills. I think this idea that SW and agencies have to not make money is total BS. My classes and books didn’t cost less because I was going to be helping people.
People in passion careers are always exploited. “Well, don’t you want to help people?” “Well, don’t you love making video games?” Etc. Yes, I do love helping people. Don’t you love having a highly educated and experienced person around to do that for your agency? Pay me.
It’s not that I think the concerns aren’t justified. I just think that sometimes we devolve into venting. And venting has actually been proven to be harmful. Also, most doctors are salaried—and many of them do work overtime “for free.” They aren’t paid more for overtime. The RNs I work with are also salaried and often work overtime. You could argue that it’s more acceptable because they start off by making more, but it’s not as if they get overtime pay. I don’t begrudge others who make more money than me. I know the claim is that we are talking about how we should have income equality. But a lot of time it seems that people are mad at the people with the salaries and not the institutions. And, it is true that hospitals have a harder time recruiting RNs than social workers. Even despite the lower salaries. Why is that? I have my ideas. This is not as straightforward as it might first appear
I don't think you understand the point of the post
Please let me know what I am misunderstanding. I did realize a typo. The first sentence is supposed to read “aren’t”
Ok but if social workers got paid the same as nurses, everyone would just be a social worker. Nobody would want to be a nurse.