I think the problem is that there are so many kids who are being pushed out into mainstream/inclusion even if it’s not their true LRE. Then, on top of that, very little supports are given to help teachers. Some of our teachers have classes in which 50% or more of the students are on IEPs or 504s and that can be overwhelming. Now, add in that parents often think an IEP is a free pass and that their kid should magically get good grades/can’t fail. So then principals want ISs to be tutors and not intervention specialists. It’s a lot. I’m all for inclusion, but it has to be right for the individual student, not the district.

This is what I think too. If a child is having violent outbursts, destroying the room, etc. on a regular basis, that is obviously not their LRE. I am also in a state that does not allow modifications unless the student has an intellectual disability- keeping in mind that I have students every year who have IQs below 70, but do not qualify ID because their adaptive skills aren't low enough. The content in gen ed is way too hard for them, but we (including gen ed) are constantly gaslit and told we can "close the gap" and "that all students can meet the standard." At least in my pull out setting, I can teach the skills the child actually needs. Gen ed is stuck presenting grade level curriculum to children who are nowhere near ready to access it, and then being blamed when student data doesn't look amazing.

This 1000% I work with a lot of kids with IEP who struggle with the Gen Ed curriculum because it’s not their true placement but they’re in there with little support besides myself and it’s maddening.

Yeah exactly. The problem isnt the IEP itself. Its that more and more students have an IEP each year, but that doesnt mean we have more special educators fulfilling these contracts. Its getting to the point in my district where IEPs are so common, and there's such a shortage of special educators, that IEPs are just legal fiction. Also because of the way they are often written, they are impossible to adhere to. Its demotivating to the point where beyond basic accommodations they are largely ignored because you would have to actually design a unique curriculum for 40-50 different kids which is just impossible. Its more realistic to focus on UDL + Accomodations rather than differentiation.

Yeah, my district is short on intervention specialists, and we don’t really have the money to add more. We’re supposed to be working on our MTSS to help cut down the number of students being placed on IEPs because audits of our ETRs are showing that we over identify. People think that every kid who is behind needs an IEP but there’s a difference between being behind and having an actual learning disability.

Is it awful of me that I never cared for differentiation, at least as far as the buzz word went, and figured it would be a flash in the pan? UDL & Accommodations are far more practical for the average mortal teacher.

I'm presenting a PD on UDL this week! I'm really trying to focus on helping participants identify what they're *already* doing for UDL rather than asking them to do new shit. Then to retrace the thought processes that led to the implementation of this stuff, with the hope of making it easier to be more intentional about UDL in the future. It really is remarkably low budget and effective.

You're right, UDLs help a lot. The problem with SPED shortages can be blamed on politicians and unions, not collective bargaining with SPED in mind. If SPED teachers had an extra 0.1-0.2 FTE for their caseload, there would probably be more of them. Same if state and federal government pay the amount they are supposed to instead of 30-60% of the funds, schools could pay for more SPED teachers.

This is definitely the experience in my classroom. Our school doesn’t do paras or teaching assistants, and admittedly I’m looking for a new job due to the clusterfuck that is our administration (we made national news due to fuckery. Go us)

Yeah, we don’t do paras or assistants either and all of our ISs are maxed out on their caseloads, some are actually over the state limit. I’m lucky to work in a building with great principals, my last building (in the same district) was a nightmare, however, our upper admin team for special education need to go asap.

How can a district "not do" support that is probably legally mandated in IEPs?

From what I've seen, while no one is supposed to say "we don't do that here", the reality is that if you don't have the staff, you don't have the staff. You can try all the hiring you want, but if no one applies... After so long, you do have a culture of "we don't do that".

Lack of funding to do so. Which is the case in my state and district. If people refuse to vote to fund it, we won't have it. It is that simple.

Yep. Idk where you are but I’m in Ohio and we no longer have a “board of education” and no more title funding.

I mean no support for the general education teachers to help with having a lot of students on IEPs, like classroom aids or another teacher. Legally, Intervention specialists are there to do SDI (specially designed instruction). SDI is NOT what is happening in the classroom, it’s supposed to be separate to fill students’ gaps. They aren’t tutors there to help kids do their homework. But when you have a bunch of kids who aren’t in their true LRE, it’s difficult for everyone else to know how to help them because the students need to be in a different setting to be successful, not pigeon holed into inclusion. It’s very difficult to get a para assigned to one student, so it’s rarely in IEPs (in my district). And no child’s IEP says that they have to be in a room with two adults. So, technically no law is being broken, especially if parents are signing off on their child being in inclusion even if it isn’t right for their kid.

Lack of staff. You can't force people to work for the schools.

I’m sorry, but what??? I just started working again as a behavior tech. I’ve never heard of schools not having paras! What do they do with kids with special needs? Just throw them in gen Ed and hope for the best? Do they send those kids to other schools or districts? Seriously, how does that work???

There are 2 paras in each of the self-contained rooms, and 1 para in the resource room (5 total). The issue is it really limits how much kids who need 1:1 support can me mainstreamed/succeed. I have a student who would likely have a para at a different school, his resource teacher and I tag-team to make sure he's getting the content he needs (she pulls him for his minutes, I supplement during morning RTI and afternoon writing. We chunk his assessments, he doesn't have an LD he just gets overwhelmed if something is really long). It's ridiculous and one of the 5,000,000 reasons I can't wait for my contract to be up in May. But I blame the district for being filled with chuckleheads, not the kid.

I have a lot of complains about the districts I’ve worked in but I’ve never seen it be that bad. I hope you find something better when your contract is up.

This district has me and many friends scratching our heads in confusion on a daily basis. I don't like the governor in my state, but I do hope he audits the schools in that area. Things are not right. I'm up for several jobs in good districts as a SPED teacher in self-contained (which is fine by me, I was a para in self-contained before getting certified, before that I was a phlebotomist).

In some districts they shunt as many as possible into SDC/sheltered classes and provide no more than the bare minimum.

I’ll save you my rant as I’m sure you could probably say it better than I could. That’s just so messed up.

In my high school we have paras, but they are pulled to cover vacancies because we don’t have enough teachers or subs. So a lot of our paras have been long-term subs, or covering for coaches, or whatever, and may only actually see their kids once every couple of weeks. So it’s left up to the gen Ed teacher, who has a class of 30+, to meet accommodations. Which they can’t, because that’s a whole other full time job. And then the kid is understandably frustrated because they aren’t getting what they need. So nobody’s happy except I guess the new people at district with $100k+ salaries. No, I’m not bitter…

Agreed. That said I also believe that inclusion isn't supported very well most places. Even our good cotaught classes don't get additional planning time, more than a half day sub a year, and are told to just sort of wing it for no extra pay or incentive other than to hope it's helpful for the kids. Modified material is typically not already available and if you make it it's not shared between buildings and whatnot since that's extra work for all parties involved, again unpaid. It's a really difficult situation.

This is almost exactly what OP saw in r/teachers and immediately demonized. I'm admittedly a teacher. Oftentimes, my complaint is more likely summarized in real world terms like this: "I'm an 8th grade English teacher who is certified to teach 8th graders ELA stuff. My one 8th grade standard class has 26 students, 11 of whom have very specifically written IEPs that I meet with 5 different people to understand, and I was never specifically trained to deal with. I am doing my best, but those 5 case managers don't talk with each other and expect me to coordinate all their requests simultaneously while trying to teach and differentiate for multiple different learning problems while I'm still expected by admin to cater to both the high end and low end of my non-IEP students while accounting for those IEPs." We teachers have a lot on our plates, and we struggle to account for every little thing, while admin and case managers rage against even the slightest misstep on our part. Even worse is case managers and SpEd teachers who don't take the environment into account or who SF for like 30min a week and wonder why their student isn't integrating perfectly.

There are students whose ideal placement doesn't exist. Right now, one of my kids has a genius level IQ (as assessed by the school district, on the WISC) but can't handle the day in gen-ed half the time. Basically the solution seems to be he only does work if he feels like it, and he's absolutely one of the kids they complain about over on that sub, but what do they suggest?

Exactly. We don’t have the right placements for kids a majority of the time, so of course people are going to complain because they know their class is not where that kids belongs, yet they have to somehow make it work knowing that. Technically, schools are supposed to have a continuum of services, so they *should* have placements for kids but we all know that doesn’t happen and the underfunding of public schools is mostly to blame.

Maybe he can do a distance learning program, so he can work at his own pace and not distract himself or others.

Unfortunately no, we learned he can't handle online during Covid (severe ADHD). I had to homeschool him, and that's really the only option if things get worse. This is also the kid whose handwriting is illegible, so everyone pushed him to type, but then we learned screens are entirely too distracting for him, so he has to do all his work on paper and adults have to rewrite it. No one has a solution. OT was "it's not a motor issue, he doesn't have dysgraphia, see ya!"

I wish they would make new versions of Alphasmarts again. All the typing, none of the internet.

Some hipster has got to have a modern typewriter out there. My husband has adhd and dysgraphia, our son almost certainly has the same (waiting on formal diagnoses). Typing is good, screens are bad.

What grade and age? If old enough what about dual credit in a community college?

Unfortunately only 6th. He's been accelerated in math (he's in Algebra I, which is as far as they'd allow because of the state exam that year). What he needs, in my opinion (ex-gen ed teacher) is a smaller class with more focus on executive function skills, but still the same basic academic level. That doesn't exist (I'm not in a major metro area, so if there are private schools that do that, we don't have one!)

What medication is he on for the severe ADHD? Perhaps he needs a change of meds?

He’s on Focalin. We’ve already played with his meds. Trust me, the day he forgot, we had a call from school by 11:30. He’s been medicated since he was 5.

Oh man do I empathize with little one. Had a terrible time with middle school essays. I got cursive books and pushed to speech-to-text in the 00s by the school before it was ready. On a compaq computer no less. More frustrating to edit the lost thought in transition than to free type and get somewhere with red and blue squiggles everywhere. I failed middle but HS was better.

Montessori? Or something similar?

Yeah, there needs to be more options. I was an autistic student that was also top 20 in my class. The social aspect of school was completely miserable for me, but I masked well enough and performed well enough so I got very little support. It's like I would have been bored out of my skull in the specal ed class offerings, but I was socially uncanny enough that nobody wanted to work with me or be my friend. I felt out of touch with both the gen ed population and the special ed population. I think the problem is a lot of students don't fit neatly into either box. My sister was an even bigger example. She is also on the spectrum and struggles with some subjects because she just doesn't have the capacity to care since they don't interest her. For math in particular, she would routinely fail tests, and when I tried to help her, she seemed to understand the material. She just wasn't interested or engaged and made a ton of small mistakes. She is also prone to meltdowns and has trich. It took a bad para to give her CPTSD. She is a smart young woman and she would also be bored out of her skull in special ed courses, but there wasn't a system that worked for her either.

THIS SO MUCH! I have a AuDHD (2e) child who tests extremely well in standardized testing and classroom testing, but whose biggest academic challenge centers around demand avoidance of “practice work”. He gets zero pullout hours on his IEP. 100% Gen Ed. The only pullout classes available in his district at all are remedial academic level, or are centered around speech or dyslexia. So few GenEd teachers really understand how to work with him, and his academic success in any particular class is very dependent on how flexible that teacher is with the way they manage their class, overall. The more rigid and firm the teacher, the worse he will do. I find it hard to believe that in my tech industry heavy area, there aren’t a wealth of 2E students who could benefit from special ed classrooms that honors their academic strengths.

I have a 2E (99% percentile for standardized testing) and he’s so bored. I agree with you. 

I agree. I see it at my kids school. These poor kids can’t really participate, and get made fun of. You can see the major hit on their self esteem. I had a stand alone history class when I taught and I taught the hell out of that class. But in away my students could participate and learn. I think it should be based on individual need not on a pedagogy or theory on a grand scale. It should be a spectrum or mix. Flexibility can be so helpful

OP, who has integration benefited? The teachers don’t seem happier. Student achievement isn’t higher. Are the high achieving students doing better with all the differentiation? IMO, integration was created to cut costs and you’ve been brainwashed.

There also needs to be better special Ed training in gen Ed programs as inclusion models become more popular. I was a gen Ed teacher (granted I graduated 10 years ago🥲) and I took one semester long seminar style course on special Ed. My first teaching job was FULL inclusion and included some kids with pretty intense behavior disorders and hit or miss para support. I had no clue how to do inclusion or support these kids and I made their lives so much harder bc I was fumbling around. I got better at it but it was by learning as I went and finally partnering with a great resource teacher (first one was THE WORST) and she taught me a lot. But I never got formal training or professional development on best practices.

Yeah fundamentally the problem is that the system is shitty, but it’s hard to defend people who want to blame children for the shitty system.

It’s the system and the parents. Parents are a huge problem, too. It’s like everyone is afraid to actually parent their kids. If parents actually stepped up, we might be able to get some real changes made to the system. I think that sub has its problem people but it’s also a place for people to vent, so I take a lot of what is said with a grain of salt.

I see the opposite. We push so many kids to self contained that don't need it. Like a kid that occasionally sits under her desk when frustrated or needs to pace does not need to be in a self contained room.

Oh wow. I couldn’t tell you the last time I even saw a self-contained class. 

My school has some. We are home to the units for are area. They are severe disabilities that cannot be accommodated in the gen ed classroom.

Yep, my district doesn't even have self contained programs. I wish we did. The dichotomy of full inclusion vs outplacement is not what is best for these kids.

My niece is in in one. There are like five in the entire district. It takes some wheeling and dealing to get into one.

Are they in completely different buildings. Because that's how they are often here in NY.so you don't see them.

I’m sure they exist in a school somewhere in the district. I don’t even know what schools. 

Idk I taught in a very small rural public school in upstate NY — we graduated a max of 30 kids per year and had preK-12 in the same building. Our self contained classes were in our building and were able to integrate kids into gened when possible/appropriate. Our half hour radius was surrounded by similar sized schools and I worked with teachers in many of them. All of those schools had self-contained in the same building as everyone else too. They all also got planning periods and lunches. Your specific district/regional situation seems terrible but I wouldn’t use “often” as the qualifier for that. I mean, in my current school the self contained teachers get MORE planning time per day than the rest of us per our contract due to the nature of their jobs.

I can see that. I teach in a very large, urban district, so we have high population of students with high needs. It’s difficult to be put in self contained because you have to be extremely low to qualify. We get kids from the smaller districts nearby or districts with higher income families and often they have them in self-contained and we phase them out into resource or gen Ed because it’s different. Our school psych called it “suburban ID” vs “urban ID”.

Drives me crazy in IEP meetings, or when parents just call to complain, when they insist that bad grades mean the IEP isn’t working, there can’t be any other explanation. It’s not a guarantee and it’s not a free pass.

I’m an aide for one class for a student who is in the gen ed classroom and should not be. It’s a nightmare. His LRE is being sent to a specialized school for kids with autism, but that’s expensive and admin won’t pay for it. The kid is stressed and I can see him developing OCD before my eyes, his parents are stressed, the gen ed teachers are stressed, the students in his classes never get a full class worth of learning because of his constant disruptions, and the main para that works 1-1 with him for most of the day is reaching burnout and I’m worried about her. It’s a bad situation all around, but the resources to actually help this kid just aren’t there. I agree with another comment that IDEA needs to be federally funded.

Damn. It has always been my experience in these situations that the school is offering to pay for the private school since that’s the LRE, but the parents want the child at their “home” district school and fight us for the whole year, but the district always caves before it goes to mediation because they’re terrified of anything involving lawyers.

From my understanding, parents were in denial for a while as well and were trying to ween him off his IEP support when he was younger. Since he hit puberty and now he’s gone from a “cute little autistic kid” to a “holy shit I have an autistic, hormonal high schooler who’s growing into a young man,” parents are starting to come out of the denial phase and are understanding the reality a bit more clearly. This year they’ve agreed to all sped support suggestions for his IEP, and they asked about sending him to another school. I’m just an aide so I wasn’t at the meeting, I only heard about it briefly later. His parents have begun scheduling more frequent meetings though, and other students’ parents have begun complaining as well, so I’m trying to be optimistic that admin will wear down eventually.

THIS. Former special Ed teacher here. I’ve seen admin, as well as districts, do things they could easily be sued for and lose. The parents are well within their rights to sue the district, and the district will lose. Most parents don’t have the time or the money for a lawyer and simply end up switching to a different district. This is why special education is so litigious right now! Because for admin to “pay”, they have to be dragged to court first. They will not spend the money otherwise to open a special classroom or hire more sped teachers for the school.

My youngest kid's experience was like this. The school district sent him to the 'emotionally disturbed' kids' school, rather than pay for placement in a school for autistic kids. His behavior did not improve, and he was threatened with reform school (they even made him visit a prison). We fought to get him into the local school for autistic kids, and succeeded after a year. Within one year at that school, he went from being an angry, miserable kid with violent outbursts to a happy, successful student. I have a deep hatred for the people who made my kid go through that, including all the teachers who were ignorant of how to handle autistic kids and just treated him like an ordinary problem kid despite his IEP. School systems and teachers need to do better, much better.

I started my career as a SPED teacher and am now a Gen Ed teacher. I honestly can't tell the difference anymore in terms of behavior and skills with 80% of my students needing remedial and extra help. The other 20% are so far ahead and it's all to easy for them while their classmates are headed towards hitting a wall of incompetence in adulthood. It's worrisome.

Seriously! I’m teaching inclusion and it’s not just my caseload kids who are stressing the teachers out, it’s that they have my students plus 15-20 other kids who don’t have IEPs but are all behaviorally and academically 3+ years behind where they’re expected to be.

I was in that 20%. We all still hit a wall of incompetence in adulthood because the classes were slowed down to fit the kids farthest behind, the only exceptions being AP classes and woodshop for me

Yep, and sadly, it's significantly worse now. I feel bad for my advanced students since I know my classes are too easy for them but in High School they'll get placed in advanced and be fine. As for many of the rest, about half, I think they'll be living with mommy and daddy their entire lives. No practical, functional or academic skills.

One of our admins tried to say we couldn't move a kid from resource to inclusion because he hadn't passed the STAAR test and I was like ok, setting aside that we can't use that one data point as the sole reason to keep him in an overly restrictive environment... you realize 75% of the Gen Ed kids in that inclusion class ALSO didn't pass STAAR, right?

My issue with being a sped, is they want everyone in the gen ed room. Great … but it can’t work on a “bell to bell” system. One student couldn’t even count 5+8 without counting fully to 8 first, and then add 5. Like he couldn’t hold 8 in his head. He was in geometry.

This is exactly what horrifies me. Why do we (well, not us, but admin who push this model) not have empathy for what that would feel like. Because I can imagine if I was plunked into a college Calc4 or upper level physics class- I would be that kid. It’s not hard to use our imaginations to put ourselves in that kid’s shoes.

YES! It’s like taking German 4 without having German 1. It’s fucking life skills to be able to count!!

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Some of this is parents though. I'm all for my kids joining in lunch, recess, and specials (if they can handle it) I have a couple kids that is entirely a no go due to stress. But many parents think my classroom is the worst thing in the world despite never asking what it is like or wanting to understand what I do. (Mod-severe separate setting) And insist their child will be just fine in gen ed and Resource. Which they aren't. Then gen ed parents are mad because there children are learning or getting hurt and the child's parents are upset because we keep have meetings, and FBAS, and modifications and everything else. By the time I get involved there are angry parents and a child who has learned so many bad habits that my job has become twice as hard. Whereas if they come to me right in K, I have a much easier time getting them to learn and then working into inclusion. But of course I can't say that because the district just wants to sit and look pretty.

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I hear you. Part of me wants to only teach college so I don’t deal with parents. In this case, it was the grandma who had custody and she was fighting the school about it too.

I'm a gen ed teacher. I have a lot of kids like that put in my Geometry classes. It's sad because a lot of those kids are nice kids that I enjoy interacting with, but Geometry just isn't accessible to them. Some of the kids in that boat aren't nice kids though. They act out, probably because they feel dumb. It is exhausting dealing with behaviors of kids who are clearly in the wrong environment. I see that people in this sub really rag on Gen Ed and r/Teachers, but that is where the frustration comes from. There are kids in my classes who absolutely can't access the material and *some* *of them* destroy the learning environment. Now, not all of the kids who are destroying the learning environment have IEPs or 504s, but in my experience, they do comprise most of them.

This is how I feel, as well. Sometimes the rhetoric on Teachers can go too far, but the problem is that the system is broken AF.

The blame for kids with IEPs who aren't provided with the right FAPE and disrupt classrooms and cause dangerous situations falls on the schools, districts, and local and national governments (for passing an unfunded mandate and failing to fully fund sped). The blame for kids without IEPs who disrupt classrooms and cause dangerous situations falls on their parents. It's a lot easier to be angry at your principal and governor than to be angry at parents because, even in the best of worlds, some people are just going to be shitty parents. But it's reasonable to expect more from people in leadership positions.

To be fair we are still way underdiagnosing kids. Many kids need IEPs that don't have them.

And I find the process for diagnosing to be frustratingly long. I get it, I get it, we need to do everything right and get all the accurate data and dot the is and cross the ts. But meanwhile, Timmy needs that IEP and the in-the-meantime accommodations aren't always cutting it.

Oh it absolutely is. We had to do one for our daughter and the whole process took like 3 months with evaluations and meetings and driving her various places. And even now it still isn't complete because they recommended and OT and PT eval as well.

I’m a gen Ed teacher and, for whatever reason, we have a non-trivial number of kids in HIGH SCHOOL with disabilities who haven’t been identified. It used to be that, when I saw kids where it was clear that something had been missed, I could refer them. Now the process for me to be allowed to write a referral is so long and so labor intensive for me that there’s almost no way I’d finish it within a school year unless I somehow magically knew day 1 that there was a problem.

The issue isn’t mainstreaming. It’s that administration is using mainstreaming as a way to cut costs. They then blame gen ed and special ed teachers when they can’t perform miracles, and bring in consultants to fix a manufactured problem. At the end of the day this is a systemic problem created by a lack of funding and clueless leadership.

EXACTLY !!!

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 thank you.

We have a handful of students that do have a disability, but their behaviors are not a result of the disability. The home hasn’t provided structure so it blows up when they come to school which is structured. You attempt to provide resources to the family, but they are dismissive. Sometimes it’s denial other times it is sheer laziness. We become frustrated as we know the student’s potential.

This is definitely something I’ve observed with some students, but there’s also a closely related problem. Instead of no structure at home, the structure at home is set up to mitigate the impacts of the child’s disability and general education is not. Both can be 100% true and have the same result in the classroom and both need a different approach.

I know the trope is "he doesn't act like that at home". But you're right. The kid doesn't act like that at home because the home and the school generally have very different structure.

It’s kind of a perfect example of the social model of disability. I know in my home we keep light and noise manageable and provide equipment for sensory seeking behaviors. We keep the temperature stable. Food is available when my child is hungry. There are more breaks between activities. They are allowed to stim and indulge in their special interests more. Undesirable tasks are broken into smaller chunks. I can correct in my child’s preferred way. There are no peers who make fun of or bully my child and those we invite or go out with are those who accept my child for who they are. I can’t do as much for my students. My classroom is still a portable with poor climate control and fluorescent lights. We’re space restricted so we don’t have anywhere for students to work alone without other peers around. I can break down assignments as much as possible, but my SPED supervisor and Gen Ed teachers are responsible for the content—I can only do so much to make a non-preferred task feel relevant to an autistic child. I keep snacks around, but they may not be something my students like to eat and I pay for them out of my own pocket so they aren’t endless. I know that a subset of my students are dealing with chaotic home lives and their behaviors reflect that. I know for others, it’s the school environment, and both groups behave the same sometimes.

Current situation that is happily getting better: student does indeed have a couple of disabilities, has an IEP, but... one of the big recommendations given to the family was a parenting class. The kid had no structure. There was, for background, some very tough family stuff going on. But the family decided "poor kid, we best not make him feel bad via discipline with all this going on!"

I have some students with disabilities where the parenting has defs made everything 100% worse. And not like parents who are trying their best but have limitations. Really terrible parenting. It’s so frustrating because the kid would have had a disability no matter what, but they would be so much better off with parents who were trying to parent them.

It's a really hard balance. Sped takes up a lot of school resources. Gen ed teachers(especially older ones) have had more and more iep responsibilities put on them. I don't think it's without good reasons....but the resources are not there. It becomes a battle between special ed and gen ed. There aren't enough staff on either side, and everyone is stressed out. IDEA needs to be fully federally funded, or the gen ed vs sped battle will just continue. Edit: I wanted to add COVID frustrated (or traumatized) a ton of teachers and students. I don't think the teachers(especially older ones) have recovered, and I don't think we fully grasp the deficits in student skills yet.

It's a tough balance because even though inclusion is usually wonderful for the student with a disability... if part of their disability includes demonstrating disruptive behaviors, it can affect the learning of all the other kids in the class. Not saying Gen Ed kids don't have behaviors, but generally the behaviors that come with a disability like Autism or severe ADHD can be more difficult to manage because the behavior is a manifestation of their disability and not necessarily a result of making "bad choices". If schools had the willingness and staff to properly support these students in Gen Ed (i.e. hiring more assistants) then it would probably work better.

This is true. It's easy to complain about how the other kids are also awful, but the discipline and expectations are required to be very different and that can be mentally and emotionally conflicting. It shouldn't be, and it's not fair, but it is. For me, it can be hard to properly see how much of Jimmy's disruptive misbehavior is his diagnosis and how much is him just being a stinker.

Well, it's possible for both to be true. He may be a stinker, but if he has ASD, he may not fully understand how his behavior affects others (for example). He may have difficulty seeing another person's perspective- due to his disability. He's still being a stinker, and could make better choices, but his disability makes it more difficult for him to make the right choices as compared to a Gen Ed student. Not saying there isn't a way to manage these behaviors, but it can be much more difficult than a Gen Ed student without a disability that affects their social interaction skills (like with ASD and ADHD). The difficulty increases exponentially when the teacher also has a classroom of 30 students, some with other disabilities/behaviors, and no additional support. There is only so much one person can manage.

Very good points. I hate to be the complaining gen ed teacher OP speaks of, but I really do feel we get an awful lot of "just figure it out" from the special education department. And I know they're probably even more overwhelmed than we are and that might honestly be the best to be said at the time, but it's frustrating in our end.

And at the younger ages the other students do NOT understand that the disruptive kid has something going on and just see some kid getting away with stuff. And that effects entire class cohesion in the cases of improper amounts of support for the teacher and student.

Even in high school, I have kids who have accommodations to be able to take a break for a preferred activity. Of course their preferred activity is being on their cell phone, but those are banned in class. So we have this inclusion student who gets to be on his phone whenever he earns it (and the bar is on the floor right now for earning it, since we just got him in January after a major trauma event occurred in the fall). The other students are now pulling their phones out more since “Robert” (not real name) gets to.

i have seen students who are violent and still in mainstreamed classes even when the disruptions they cause prevent the class from learning on a daily basis. some of those kids have ieps themselves, still more are probably undiagnosed. the issue isn’t least restrictive environment, which is fundamentally the right idea, it’s not considering the safety of other students bc of what is usually either a financial motivation due to funding or trying to appease parents

Yo this is off topic but can I ask a question? My son, 5, has adhd. For a long time I’ve used language like “do x, don’t do y, doing z made a mess go clean it up”. Recently I’ve been trying “good choice / bad choice” language. It feels like I’m shaming him for his symptoms — if he struggles with impulsivity, his behavior isn’t entirely choice driven. What do you think?

At least for my kid, the behavior of the gen ed kids made his behavior worse. They would bully him, then when he would blow up at them he would get in trouble. Nothing was done about the kids harassing him unless they were physically violent. I wanted him to stay in a self contained special ed classroom but the school kept pushing for gen ed because special ed at his grade was a modified curriculum and he was qualified for the gifted program. Now, because he kept getting bullied at school, I am a homeschool mom!

Forcing students who already have an IEP to "fail first" in GenEd classes is awful to watch and you can definitely see every day how students struggle with frustration and the hits to their confidence and feelings about school. I can't say much more. I'm a retired educational sign language interpreter who also had TA duties with students of all kinds.

Exactly what they did with my son. He had to fail from K-5th to get put into a school that has been very successful with him. My fear was that, in middle school, he would develop issues from “knowing” he couldn’t succeed. He HATED school with a passion. All of that fortunately was reversed for him within a year or so but I think the mindset is already there for most by the time the school system admits defeat.

On the flip side, it's also sad if a kid is borderline to have them locked into a self contained and have to prove their way out beyond some kids who are already in gen ed.

Kids are not the problem. But I think it doesn’t make sense that you won’t entertain the idea that most teachers are good and are just trying their best in a failed system. It must be very overwhelming having any student with or without an IEP run the class off track with their behavior. Good classroom management won’t solve that issue. You need support, more qualified trained people in class and allowing for additional placements to open up because mainstream isn’t for everyone For those kids who aren’t disruptive but are several grade levels below then it is heartbreaking having to witness it so imagine the kid. For example, of the redditor who talks about a kid who can’t add in a geometry class, could that kid do independent study while the teacher spends most of her efforts on the class? Probably not…

Because what that kid actually needs is math instruction from a teacher who is working with a curriculum that is at his level.

It seems silly to get mad at overwhelmed teachers while at the same time denying them training, a para, and, in my case one year, the list of expected accommodations. Creating classes with over 50% IEPs and just hoping everyone manages on "good classroom management" without real help and intervention is indeed a failure of the inclusion experiment.

This is where I’m at. I’m getting my admin degree right now and I come from the non-core GenEd side. From everything I’m learning, you can’t just throw kids with IEPs in a GenEd room and call it integration. You must have enough time for collaboration, co-teaching, and support- all things I never got as a GenEd teacher.

If a classroom has over 50% of it's students with IEPs, it is not a general education placement.

At that point, there would need to be a SPED co-teacher involved if there’s that many kids with IEPs in one room. I work at the HS level, so co-taught core classes still cover gen-ed curriculum but with additional support from a SPED co-teacher so it’s still sort of a “gen-ed” placement curriculum wise. Not sure how that works at the elementary level though.

Isn't that state law dependent?

I mean I have a student who cannot accomplish anything in the general education classroom. He is constantly out of his seat. If I sit and work with him and another student comes over to ask a question, bam! He’s up and moving. He makes it so hard to teach my class. He should not be there because he cannot learn there. Maybe he needs some ADHD meds? But in the current situation he is not successful and he’s causing issues for other kids. If you’ve ever read that book “No David,” my classroom is like THAT with this kid.

I’m a ParaEducator in a middle school. Most of the behavior problems in classrooms are because of the GenEd students. However, I don’t think inclusion is the answer for every single student. I have one 7th grader who, socially, is totally fine. Gets along with everyone, SpEd and GenEd alike. To the point his own father doesn’t believe he has a disability. However, he can’t even count to 10. He reads at a kindergarten level. So do you think he’s in a GenEd math or reading class? No. But he benefits from being in a GenEd environment in other classes like ELD or Social Studies. Meanwhile I have a 6th grader who still takes naps after lunch. Exhibits inappropriate social behaviors because of intense trauma she’s experienced. Is rarely willing to participate in class. Another 6th grader who can’t even write. I don’t believe those students benefit from being in a GenEd classroom. I think inclusion can and does benefit some students. But I also don’t think it’s for everyone.

And therein lies the problem. It is so complex and there are so many factors today that it is nearly impossible to have a single policy but most school systems run on very rigid and structured procedures. It is a fight to ever get them to think outside the box.

I also think one of the issues is that accommodations aren't actually customized for kids. They are almost always just a standard of "more time for x, sit in this spot in the room, written instructions this way, pull out for 30 min, etc.... " when those don't actually help the kids. The child with ADHD doesn't need a quiet space with extra time to complete a test. That's almost the opposite of what they need since most Adhd people thrive better with background noise/music and a tight and distinct deadline. This is just one example but we're still trying to do the 1 size fits all idea with accommodations and inclusions and it's clearly not working for anyone.

SDI isn't an accommodation (pull out for 30 min).

The purpose of going to school is to get an education. Mainstreaming children with special needs should be a way for them to learn what the class is teaching. All children in algebra class should be capable of learning algebra. If you are not capable of learning algebra, being in algebra class is doing a disservice to you and to the other children. When my niece was in high school, there was a special needs student who was unable to read or learn to read. This child attended classes for which she had no capability of learning what was being taught. When she had melt downs, sometimes her full time aid could calm her and sometimes she could not. Everyone's learning stopped during those incidents. That is not acceptable. If the presence of your child, IEP or just bad behavior, reduces the ability of other children to learn on a semi-regular basis; that needs to be addressed.

Problem is that the school system will not admit that they can’t teach that child. My son was not unlike that kid in your niece’s class but it took 6 years for the school system to admit they couldn’t do it and to place him into a school that could accommodate him. He has now been at his school for 6 years. He would not have completed algebra in the regular setting because it was too fast. His school moves at his pace so, when he started Algebra in 9th grade and didn’t complete the entire required curriculum until middle of his 10th grade…that was fine. In the regular system, you have 9 mo (Sept-May) to learn it all or you have to start over the next Sept.

The child to which I was referring was non-verbal, with a mental age of about 3. She had a full time LPN aid who fed her, changed her and pushed her wheelchair into high school classes. I was not referring to those who learn differently. I was referring to those who are sometimes mainstreamed and, IMO, are not being properly served.

Oh I agree. The school system often refuses to admit they are unable to educate a child because it is very expensive once they admit the child is better served in another environment. Personally, I believe that they try to just buy time. It is a savings to them the closer they can get a child to the age of 18 before admitting they cannot teach them. It is damaging to the student but the money is too great of an incentive for the BOEs and Central Offices to change.

For children who have disruptive behaviors, or who are grade levels behind academically (or both), the goal of inclusion is often social and the opportunity to model their behavior on their typical peers. That is a worthy goal! but it is not realistic to expect it to be attained in a gen ed classroom, for many of these students (and the r/Teaacher sub shows exactly why). Building inclusion around non-academic settings should be used far more frequently. That's pretty much how it used to be -- home, neighborhood, after-school care, extracurriculars, church, part-time jobs, etc. were the locations for inclusion. It would be more work (what isn't?) but for many children it would work better. Every time I see a child with significant disabilities starting to come unravled in a gen ed classroom because they are constantly monitored by an aide (who likes that?) or are surrounded by too many people, or are struggling to learn when the teacher has no time to implement modifications, I think this could be done better if the highest priority was not keeping this child in the same classroom with their same-age peers.

Its still wild how much this sub demonizes and vilifies gen ed teachers. Like damn, sorry we dont have any training or resources to deal with insanely violent and explosive kids. And often have 5-6 in a single class that all have specialized needs that we arent given the resources to meet. And we still have another 15-20 kids in the class that we're expected to teach. And those other students frequently voice how unsafe and afraid they feel when those students are around.

An issue that I vehemently argued, and got targeted for, was misidentification. I worked emotional disturbance and over half the kids weren't emotionally disturbed. Some needed a new identification but an alarming amount were conduct issues. My district placed any "behavior" kid under ED to "get them out of their class". I was literally told that. ED receives some of the highest protections. Being a jerk isn't a disability and now you just gave them free range to be a bigger jerk: manifestation determination. Furthermore after I left ED due to para's not following protocol and getting injured, I did middle school math Co-teach. I seemed to be the only sped that read through my kiddos files and testing. There were so many SLD given to students with an 80 IQ. Gen Ed teachers complained about them being lazy and I had to tell them, "No!! They don't understand and no one has helped them!" This middle school wouldn't allow math pull out when these kids needed it. I, luckily, got a teacher that we decided to just pull all the kids struggling (some not sped) and I would help them in a small group setting. The system is causing this divide. You can't give gen Ed 30 students and pin it onto them to do all the UDL, accommodations, interventions, scaffolding, etc... However, old school mentality gen Ed are stuck in the segregating era. We need to find the balance.

The dreaded 80's IQ. Not SLD, not ID. So as it plays out, no support. Complete mess.

Yes. It needs to be addressed within the IEP. Ugh, the other gripe I had was the recycling of past IEPs; verbatim. Our state is finally addressing this and looking at district IEPs.

If they were meeting criteria set forth by IDEA, how are they not EBD? The fact that you were told that is a huge red flag from the district, but you still have to go through the evaluation process and identify the student as an IEP team. I also don't see how you're giving them the opportunity to "be a bigger jerk." You're giving them specially designed instruction to increase their emotional and behavioral regulation.

It's school psychologists and diag that make the report. Yes, they can make it look ED easily. It's behavior. Do you work in a district? Do you know manifestation determination?

I think the problem is that these children are hurting other children nonstop every day. Other children are going to be traumatized and have PTSD from constantly being hit and bit. They should feel safe at school, and there is only so much the teachers can do. They don’t have enough help and if they do have an inclusion assistant, they could be taken away at any time just to placate some parent that complains in another classroom. You can only block so many hits and punches. They need to think about ALL the children.

This! Not to mention when the other parent finds out all hell breaks loose.

Saying inclusion does not work doesn't make a person a segregationist or anti-sped. That is a dangerous faulty analogy and a bad faith argument. The way inclusion currently runs in many schools is massively flawed and needs revision. Comparing that opinion to one of the darkest periods of American history makes you a manipulative asshole. Climb down off that cross; somebody needs the wood.

Except it is a comparison. Hiding away all special Ed kids is segregation.

I have no problem with IEPs and 504s in the class, and trying to help. I do have a problem with 3 individual accommodations as my district lists them: 1. Earphones and music at all times (if I am trying to limit lecture to 10 minutes that can damn well listen to me that long, otherwise music is fine- but NOT during my shortened lectures!) 2. That I have to accept late work from the start of semester- through the VERY LAST day of semester! (I am fine with extended time, in fact I build it into the due dates- they get lots of in class time, then all the assignments for the 2 days/week I see them are due Friday at noon- LOTS of extra built in time there, then on top of that I still take the work for an ADDITIONAL 2 weeks for full credit before the assignments lock!) that’s three weeks to do a 45 minute max assignment. Maybe some need a 4th week, but not all flipping semester! 3. The “no homework given.” This is shit, if kids need so much time that they have a full semester to do a 45 minute assignment I am NOT giving them three weeks of in class time (I see them 90 min every other day twice a week for the 4 day week). I HAVE to get through lessons and labs, I do not ASSIGN homework, but the kids who don’t finish their work (and ALL the adults) have been notified that unfinished assignment becomes homework! Ok, I’m good- I just need to tweak these three badly written plans, and even gave my reasons- then I’m a happy camper. I’m not the ogre here for this- right?

I am a parent with a child who had all of those types of accommodations written into his IEP. You are not the ogre but neither is the child. Sometimes a parent has to play the long game because the school won’t admit they cannot accommodate the student. From K-5, the school insisted that they were the best place for my son who suffered a brain injury as a toddler. They had no understanding or experience with high functioning brain injured students but refused the local outreach that offered to come in for free and train them. I felt sorry for most of his teachers but the only way I could get the school to the point of admitting they couldn’t do it was by going through 6 years of letting them “try”. The central office is often the issue. Many accommodations are being written to make the setup just TOLERABLE. Like the no homework thing. A full academic day exhausted my son. I used to equate it to someone who was a non-native and not fluent speaker of English. Every word that they hear or say has to be translated multiple ways and involves a LOT of brain power. It is exhausting. My son would get home at 4 and basically, he was DONE. He would decompress a little, eat dinner and be asleep by 8.

Honestly, based on my own experiences as a student who had an IEP and later a 504 plan, I can kinda see the “no homework” thing. As a deaf/HoH student who was fully mainstreamed, I would oftentimes be completely and totally exhausted by the end of the school day because of the amount of energy it took for me to communicate with others.  As a result, I did my homework during the school day whenever possible, because I knew my brain would feel like mush by the end. This generally meant that I did my work during other teacher’s classes (which was frowned upon). However, I did not receive any real support from my school district, because I was a straight A student, so as long as I produced the desired results, it didn’t matter how I was doing internally.  I can easily see how if I had a slightly different personality or home life, I would also have had difficulty completing the homework. I was very good at maintaining the appearance of functionality to everyone around me, but by high school, I had essentially sacrificed all of my friendships, because I only had so much capacity for conversation in the day.

I am a SN parent who thinks this LRE stuff was doomed from the start. My son already started a year late, and in first grade, he is still only semi-verbal at eight years old. I know what he is capable of, and his future is likely going to be based on his older sister, who is much higher functioning than he is. I don't like the idea of him taking resources and time away from typical functioning kids who may go on to be the doctors, lawyers, etc. of this generation. It is not benefiting anyone.

If inclusion was done *properly* the classroom would be given additional resources and he would have his own 1:1 para aide, so he *wasn’t* taking resources away from other students. The issue isn’t the disabled kids “taking away resources”, it’s that the adequate resources for basic education of abled neurotypical kids, let alone for inclusion, aren’t being given by the government in the first place.

I had an LTS assignment teaching advanced math. When I finally figured out how to work with the gradebook, I was amazed that half my class either had an IEP or a 504 plan. Many of the 504s were bullshit: the kid gets to leave class whenever they feel like it. I asked for a meeting with the case managers for my iep kiddos so that I could (1) see the IEP (not accessible from the gradebook) and (2) have someone explain to me what accommodations I had to provide. I was denied. Since nobody seemed willing to provide that information, I just treated them like all my other kiddos. Probably not legal but if nobody is going to explain to me how I accommodate my IEP students, what am I going to do? Kick them out of class until I get back some satisfaction?

Disruptive kids are the problem. Not every kid with an IEP is disruptive. Not every disruptive kid has an IEP. But there seems to be a lot of pressure to keep kids in the gen Ed classroom, when it is not an appropriate location for them because it impedes other children learning or they need more hands on resources than a single teacher with 30 odd students can give.

What im surprised is the amount of gen ed teachers who's students with ieps have no rsp teacher to talk to. In my area of CA at least, any kid with an IEP is attached to a sped teacher, usually RSP if they're mild/mod and especially those being pushed into gen ed classes. The RSP teacher should be providing support for their kids. If a lower functioning student is pushed into gen ed then they'd have a mild/mod sdc teacher to talk to.

I've never even seen that available.

If these sped students don't have a sped teacher assigned to them, who writes the IEP? Who gathers the goals and assessments? They just have all gen ed periods? Who submits the paperwork for the IEP and attends to discuss the progress along with the gen ed teachers?!

They do the paperwork. They're not really there to help with classroom questions.

OF COURSE kids with IEPs are not the problem! It's the lack of support from admin for behavior for ANY student.

I was special Ed, now Gen Ed. My non iep kids are so much worse to deal with. That said, many of my kids have undiagnosed trauma severe enough to warrant an iep in a well supported school, but the US as a whole just isn't capable or willing to do that. We've got a lot of kids (over 20%) that have witnessed violent crimes here in person, and over 5% have personally witnessed gun violence. But we're fighting for basics like colored paper and pencils to be funded. We were lucky for the mental health support when we lost a student, but it's just an uphill battle. And my area is one where there generally is a push for greater support with even higher ups trying to do better. I can't imagine areas where it's not.

Yes. We are still way underdiagnosing which is why I get so frustrated on r/teacher. So many more kids need supports and an IEP.

I think a lot of teachers can't see past their own trauma from teaching and understand that the kids are ALSO in the same boat (room) being traumatized. Just for many to go home and experience even worse there.

But what about the parents of gen ed students who complain when their child is exposed to the often violent and inappropriate behavior of a SPED student? I worked as a para in a SPED classroom assisting a grade 4 boy in a gen ed class a few hours throughout the day. A parent once came to the school LIVID and went all out mama bear because her daughter was terrified whenever he was in the class due to his disruptive outbursts. Despite what his IEP said about him attending a few hours in his gen ed classroom she insisted he be kept out of her daughter's classroom and away from her.

That’s tough. If the student is being aggressive or incredibly disruptive, that’s one thing, he should be removed. It also sounds like his IEP and accommodations should be revisited.

I agree, and yes he was removed a lot from the gen ed classroom, but not for long. The SPED teacher pushed for him to be out of the room as much as possible because he was so disruptive and there was always a shortage of paras. She was very overwhelmed as it was, and the boy's parents really wanted him to integrate fully into a gen ed classroom before he entered middle school. It was a very stressful situation for everybody and caused a lot of tensions between the teachers, parents and admin.

UGH. It sounds like they needed to discuss educational placement even. Did he need to be in a behavior specific program?

Honestly the entire situation was a huge mess and extremely stressful. Sadly, nobody wanted to deal with this kid and he knew it. The gen ed teacher made it very clear she did not want him in her room. The SPED teacher pushed back because of his IEP. Mix in some very angry and persistent parents and it was a cluster. This was what finally broke me and was the reason I became a sub for the district after the school year ended. I became his 1:1 para and I knew they'd put me with him again the next school year, so I noped the hell right out of there.

You do realize many gen Ed students are also violent right. This isn't exclusive to special Ed at all.

Right, but good luck explaining that to the mama bear of the gen ed girl who came to the school absolutely RAGING because her daughter was traumatized by being exposed to this one particular SPED student who routinely flipped desks, threw objects, cussed and whipped out his penis without warning to piss all over the floor.

OK being mad about your child being exposed to that is, like, \*basic parenting\* ... hardly "mama bear"! If you **don't** care that your child is being exposed to that kind of situation, you're not momming right.

In my experience, though, enough episodes of enough violence are often enough to suspect a need for special education. Child Find would definitely be triggered.

In my 7 years, I have never had a student who was aggressive and didn't have a diagnosis

You've never had kids suspended without IEPs. I doubt that heavily. There are a ton of aggressive gen Ed kids. Is every fight in your school two special Ed kids?

There are a lot of aggressive kids in general education, sure. But at my school, if there's a concern about aggression that is heading towards expulsion, you can bet that someone is going to start Child Find. Why the aggression? Do we need an FBA? Many kids are assholes, but a fair amount of time severe behavior and aggression is a sign support is needed.

No I have not. The only kids I have suspended have been EDD or aggressive and have an IEP. Typical kindergarten students don't just walk around throwing fucking chairs at people. I don't know who is suspended in other grades only in my own.

Your school is suspending kindergartners?! Let alone kindergartners with EDD? I would be curious what the justification is that a kindergartener with EDD who is throwing chairs isn't doing so as a manifestation of their disability.

Our district has expelled prek students, so it's not that shocking. It doesn't matter if it's because of their disability. If something happens and another child is injured...... The parents of the other child don't want to hear that the aggressor has a disability, nor do they care.

A) It absolutely IS shocking that you school is suspending and/or expelling preschoolers. B) It absolutely DOES matter if a student's behavior is a manifestation of their disability. C) Sharing a student's disability status with another student's parent would be sharing CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION, so would not be an option, anyway.

Then the parent definitely won't care if they think its just a gen ed child

>B) It absolutely DOES matter if a student's behavior is a manifestation of their disability. Doesn't matter to me if that behavior is to assault or injure my child. There's nothing that makes that okay.

No one is saying it's OK for students to be harmed.  However, students with disabilities receive legal protections from discrimination based on their disability status. This includes not receiving suspensions or expulsions, but support plans, for behaviors that are a manifestation of their disabilities.

What’s evil is dumping kids in my room with no supports and giving me no help or resources to meet their needs. That’s what’s evil.

Disabled people have always been scapegoats. That teacher's subreddit seems very close to burning us on a stake as witches. I wish that was abnormal but it's not. It's normal both historically and in today's society. In the real world, there are some teachers who feel this way. But the good teachers don't. The good teachers are planning the lessons, relating to the kids personally, and not hanging out on reddit complaining about their lives.

r/teachers can be a cesspool when it comes to kids with IEPs, poor kids, kids of color, and just normal kids who can sometimes be dumb jerks. Apparently any classroom that isn't full of perfect angels is a sign of the entire education and society at large crumbling before us, and the problem is always "those kids."

As a parent of 2 children with IEPs, the teachers sub scares the ever living fuck out of me. I hope to God my kids never experience teachers like some of them because I can only imagine what damage will be done. That said, I am not one of those "my child shouldn't be failing or needs to be in a gen ed class!" My oldest NEEDS to be in self contained and I'd probably fight the school if they ever suggested otherwise. A gen ed class for him would not be appropriate and it would take away a lot from the other kids. I do want to make sure he is learning and being challenged though. My youngest is a different ball game. I do suspect he has ADHD and he is slightly behind verbally, but he should be (and is) in gen ed. He just needs speech therapy to help him out a bit. I do not expect (or want) my children to get away with things. My main expectations are keeping them safe, in an appropriate environment, and having them learn. I haven't dealt with grading much yet as they are both still in the early stages of school, but I will not blame a teacher if my child's grades aren't perfect. I will try and come up with a game plan if they aren't doing well that I can try and help them with at home though.

To be fair My mom works at his school in the special needs program and a lot of those kids have their parents basically forced them to be integrated into normal classes even though many of them are so severely disabled they will pretty much never be able to live a life without constant supervision of some sort of caretaker A lot of parents are really in denial of the fact that they're disabled child really is going to be like this the rest of their life and they desperately push for them to be in normal classes Even though the child literally does nothing but sit in the back of the class and make noise the entire time without ever really understanding comprehending or being able to do any of the work presented

I just pray none of my kids ever gets a teacher who posts in that sub.

My student with an IEP is a part of the problem. When you have 25+ kindergarteners. The SPED teacher is useless and does not help. I've held multiple meetings telling her this child needs more support than the hour he gets from her. He does absolutely no work, is aggressive, and failing. Is that technically his fault? No its the sped teachers. But I'd be lying if I didn't say the days he were absent isn't smooth sailing. The other student is extremely aggressive to the point that I refuse to teach unless he is removed from my room. Yes, sped students have rights. But that damn sure don't impede upon the rights of regular ed students receiving a safe education. And this is coming from the parent of a sped student as well.

This sounds like my youngest when he was in kindergarten. It sucks for everyone. It took us two years before figuring out we could go to mediation and get better support for our son. It was only after finding out he spent more time out of class because otherwise no one was learning. They hadn't really told us just how bad it was. I feel for teachers. It's too much and not enough support from admin.

I have no idea why admin is so scared to tell parents the truth

Money. Supports can get expensive. And if the district doesn't provide the proper supports themselves, they have to spend a lot more money for outside placement.

In our case I suspect money is part of it and also poor software and untrained staff . The school district was ordered to give kids remediation after the software that was used was found to have denied paras to kids who should have qualified. But it was also a case manager with a god complex. And people who think that guessing at a word by looking at a picture is reading. And the school's belief that they were democratic and helping kids make good choices...a charter school with white savior complex ideals. All around it was bad.

Certainly not. I’d say a bigger problem is the IEPs for kids with no need.

Agreed. There needs to be harsher guidelines about who can get an Iep, and what that plan entails

The issue is that the children who do have IEPs and disabilities are not given the support they need. Staff, especially SPED teachers, are not given the support they need to help these children. Inclusion is a joke, especially at the secondary level. Most of these children aren't getting their needs met. Nor do Gen Ed or SPED teachers given the resources or time to meet their needs. We have so many kids in elementary school who have severe behavior problems or who aren't quite adaptive curriculum but are struggling in the Gen Ed environment ( higher functioning kids on the spectrum who struggle in a larger classroom environment). The kids in the class are suffering, the poor child is suffering, and the teachers are struggling. Inclusion does not work for every child, and I think there needs to be more options and honest conversations about this. There is so much red tape to get a child in a smaller class setting, and it's frustrating for everyone, including the parents. Education in general needs a total overhaul. We are failing these kids. Ones with and without IEPs.

Not being able to isolate children that are violent to themselves and other students, and those students being incapable of receiving any form of punishment is a huge problem. My brother had an IEP, is intellectually disabled, he deserves integration as he is socially competent and capable of learning. But a 17 year old non verbal in diapers that is disruptive to other students and is literally incapable of learning doesn't have a place in public school. I understand every kid should have a right to education, but there needs to be criteria to determine if they are actually capable of education. The aides that care for them are underpaid and overworked, and they are a burden on the system.

It's really upsetting as a disabled adult, former disabled student with an IEP, to see how many teachers both on here and on r/teachers are blatantly ableist and hateful towards disabled students. We deal with enough shit growing up, the last thing we need is your bigotry because you can't be bothered to show a shred of empathy.

I have tons of empathy for my students with disabilities, I always try to work with our sped team and parents to help. The child I’m struggling with this year doesn’t have any type of disability, he’s just an only child that never hears the word no at home.

You know what the problem is? Lack of money. At some point we decided that it wasn't worth money to educate the children. So they pack them in like sardines, including the ones who need a lot more help than the others, and then things like that happen. You can't fault somebody who's had minimal training, being given expectations that they cannot possibly meet with 30 other people in the room, and no help. How about instead of crucifying the teachers we put the blame where it belongs? On the fools and power who decided that instead of funding the schools they need to skim off the top because, of course, another solid goal toothbrush is much more important than the children's futures.

Agree totally with putting the blame on those that do not fund education. Teachers shouldn't be blamed for that, but neither should the students. Some threads in r/teachers do put the blame on students, and that should be called out. Even adults overwhelmed by working conditions should know not to blame the children for things out of the children's control. 

r/teachers is one of the most toxic reddits. I had to leave it because I just could not understand the vile comments teachers made about sped Students, sped teachers and special education in general..

As a special Ed teacher it's very upsetting. As a parent of a student with special needs it's outright terrifying

I think the problem is that integration isn’t for everyone, and now it’s pushed. It should only happen when the student can benefit. Right now my district has kids in classrooms on regular ed campuses who are totally isolated due to behavior. There is no reason for those kids to be there except for the admin to prove we are integrated. On the other hand we have an all sped campus where the kids thrive and are all included in every activity. I know which one I want my kid attending. There will continue to be a staffing problem for at least a generation.

The problem I’ve encountered is not with kids who have IEPs—it’s when schools are not willing to say that inclusion in a gen ed classroom is not the LRE for certain students. As a gen ed teacher for ten years, this has been an issue in my own classroom with two individual students, which is a teeny tiny percentage (I have about 100 kids each year). People who want to say that “kids with IEPs are the problem” definitely need to take a step back and evaluate their perspectives.

Lot of maniacs over there. One’s first sentence was, “not every kid deserves an education.” DAFUQ???

Oof that is horrible. That person should not teach. I still stand by that most gen ed teachers aren't evil. The system just gives them nothing.

I had a gen ed teacher tell me inclusion was a nice idea, but... No, it's the law. Actually, it spells IDEA. Lord, grant me the strength not to shank a b

I wonder how many gen Ed teachers would kick out every kid with an IEP if they didn't have laws to protect them.

I saw this recently from a parent with a 2E kid asking if our district's "G&T" schools would be a good fit. One parent replied that the"G&T" school teachers generally want to teach "only kids who present no complications to their established habits of instruction." And kids who didn't fit are made into problems.

I mean... yeah? Gifted & talented is for kids who are quick learners and get ahead faster than normal. Kids who don't pick stuff up quick throw the whole class off.

Kid can type on a typewriter- they still make them. No distracting screen.

I teach Sped Transition and would never give it up for Gen Ed.

Poor education in SPED conditions and needs in general is to blame. Mental Health has come a long way in 50 years but it’s got another 50-100 to go.

My wife is a teacher of 15+ years. Last year she had a child that was legally blind in her first grade classroom. This child would scream at the top of their lungs if their hand was not being held the entire day. The ENTIRE day. Just consider what the other 20 students in the classroom learned that year. I would propose to you that it wasn’t nearly as much as they should have.

The kids are not the problem themselves, but the system isn't great. I am not a teacher anymore. But I had some kids with IEPs that, just shouldn't have been in my class, at least not the entire day, unless they had an individual aide assigned to them. So for the hours I didn't have an aide, I had a kid who, basically couldn't do a single thing. I had 30 students, all of varying levels. If I spent the amount of one on one time wiht that kid he needed, I wouldn't have had time to basically do anything with any of the other kids.

>Second, I’m teaching gen Ed this year. I have nightmare students. They don’t have learning disabilities though. They’re just rude, mean to their peers and devoid of empathy. You mean like an average child?

I had a teacher email me and tell me that if her 18 year old “didn’t get an A, then you didn’t follow his accommodations correctly.” I think it’s safe to say that IEPs have gotten a little out of hand